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View Full Version : Huge Win For Selig Anyone?


JUribe1989
12-13-2007, 02:16 PM
Anybody else think this is the biggest win of Selig's tenure as commish? With only two active players (Giambi and Thomas) submitting information to Mitchell, I think this makes the player's union look like more of a joke than it was before. Selig wins huge on this one, and the player's union loses even more respect in my opinion.

Trav
12-13-2007, 02:18 PM
Anybody else think this is the biggest win of Selig's tenure as commish? With only two active players (Giambi and Thomas) submitting information to Mitchell, I think this makes the player's union look like more of a joke than it was before. Selig wins huge on this one, and the player's union loses even more respect in my opinion.

Are you kidding? I wonder what the slant would be if the MLBPA got to select their guy to investigate. Both are at fault and Selig got a former Senator to try and convince everyone that we should move forward.

DumpJerry
12-13-2007, 02:22 PM
Your poll needs the option "neither." That one should win hands down.

Selig turned a blind eye on the problem until it was forced on him front and center. The Players' Assoc. refused to allow any meaningful solution until it was forced on them front and center.

Don't tell me the fans are the winners. A lot of fans got very excited watching McGwire and Sosa slug it out for the Home Run record. They give Giambi standing ovations in New York after he admitted cheating.

There are no winners today.

balke
12-13-2007, 02:24 PM
Much like AVP.... Whoever wins, we lose.

JUribe1989
12-13-2007, 02:25 PM
Are you kidding? I wonder what the slant would be if the MLBPA got to select their guy to investigate. Both are at fault and Selig got a former Senator to try and convince everyone that we should move forward.

I completely disagree, and always have. I will never understand the Selig hate-fest, if anything this report of no-names proves even further that steroids is not a huge problem in baseball anymore whatsoever. Pujols, A-Rod, Berkman, Konerko, Thome, Delgado, Miggy Cabrera, Teixeira, Fielder, Howard, and essentially every other elite star of baseball right now IS NOT a steroid user. Why then is it that the player's union is so stubborn that they wouldn't allow anyone to submit information to Mitchell? It's been the player's union's fault from the start. They're the ones that made it take so long to get any sort of testing policy put in place at all. It's the worst union on Earth, and it's a shame it has so much power.

Fenway
12-13-2007, 02:34 PM
Let us see what Bud says in an hour

Trav
12-13-2007, 02:37 PM
I completely disagree, and always have. I will never understand the Selig hate-fest, if anything this report of no-names proves even further that steroids is not a huge problem in baseball anymore whatsoever. Pujols, A-Rod, Berkman, Konerko, Thome, Delgado, Miggy Cabrera, Teixeira, Fielder, Howard, and essentially every other elite star of baseball right now IS NOT a steroid user. Why then is it that the player's union is so stubborn that they wouldn't allow anyone to submit information to Mitchell? It's been the player's union's fault from the start. They're the ones that made it take so long to get any sort of testing policy put in place at all. It's the worst union on Earth, and it's a shame it has so much power.

I guess I blame Selig more than anyone else because he is the commissioner. He is in charge of keeping the MLB as healthy as possible and his "blind eye"-if you are being nice- clearly did not put the integrity of the game first. He wanted to make money.

ksimpson14
12-13-2007, 02:56 PM
I am one of the few, but I think Selig is doing fine. He gets all the heat for this stuff, while the NFL is praised, or NBA is ignored, which is a joke, because every other sport either has the same thing going, or worse. It's this stupid misconception that steroids=home runs, it might help for a professional baseball player, but the point is it helps with stamina, speed, recovery, keeping in shape, things important and beneficial in every sport. No one finds it odd that Lebron James comes into the NBA out of high school with an NBA body? Better or just as good as many established players? Something that really made his transition a breeze?

What can he do? How many of you knew of HGH (benefits in this regard, and use) before a couple years ago? There's no HGH urine test now, what do you years ago, even if you suspect this stuff? He had no reason to even commission a report, and now found other HGH connections, maybe it was to save face, but it looks good to me.

ksimpson14
12-13-2007, 02:57 PM
But I would also like to add, I completely disagree with JURibe, who says that this shows the big stars aren't on this stuff, that's ignorant and ridiculous imo

Daver
12-13-2007, 04:06 PM
Does anyone ever win a dog and pony show?

colles9
12-13-2007, 04:14 PM
Agreed that their should be a neither option. Bare in mind these names are only those that were writing personal checks for the stuff. I firmly believe that the original list that came out by WNBC was the full list intended for the report but Mitchell could not include them because there was no concrete evidence only people saying that they sold to them. Basically, those on the WNBC list not included in the MItchell list were those that most likely paid cash!

kidmccarthy
12-13-2007, 04:45 PM
Much like AVP.... Whoever wins, we lose.

No way did you quote the tagline for that piece of crap. I hope you dont like that movie, if you do I pity your soul.:tongue:

laxtonto
12-13-2007, 04:55 PM
How many of you guys have read the memo from the players union to all players in MLB in the appendix B at the very back of the report?
This a exert from the end of that memo...

Finally, as you know, the owners and the players have bargained long and hard over the subject of performance-enhancing drugs several times over the past five years. The positions adopted by the union in those talks reflect a consensus among all players after numerous meetings, discussions and conference calls. Any comments made to Senator Mitchell --
Commissioner Selig's lawyer -- by an individual player regarding the operation of the Program might well be used by the owners in future bargaining with the union.

It is in light of these considerations that we recommend that you first consult with MLBPA counsel and your own private counsel before responding to Senator Mitchell.

It basically tells all players to blow off Mitchell...

Yeah, if i had to pick a winner its Selig, becasue the players union looks real real bad in this.

FJA
12-13-2007, 05:04 PM
I voted MLBPA as the winner, not because the report makes them look good, but because I think they'll be fairly successful in painting the report as a witchhunt, and the report's evidence as, in many places, totally insufficient. It's unfortunate, because the MLBPA is not, by any means, the good guy in this whole situation.

spawn
12-13-2007, 05:08 PM
There are no winners in this. Period.

kobo
12-13-2007, 05:15 PM
I completely disagree, and always have. I will never understand the Selig hate-fest, if anything this report of no-names proves even further that steroids is not a huge problem in baseball anymore whatsoever. Pujols, A-Rod, Berkman, Konerko, Thome, Delgado, Miggy Cabrera, Teixeira, Fielder, Howard, and essentially every other elite star of baseball right now IS NOT a steroid user. Why then is it that the player's union is so stubborn that they wouldn't allow anyone to submit information to Mitchell? It's been the player's union's fault from the start. They're the ones that made it take so long to get any sort of testing policy put in place at all. It's the worst union on Earth, and it's a shame it has so much power.
This report is the tip of the iceberg. Just because certain names are not included in the report does not mean everyone is clean. Notice how a lot of the names mentioned are players that were primarily based on the East Coast? Also, Mitchell did not have the power to subpoena anyone, and primarily worked with Radomski and McNamee to gather his information. I feel there are many more parties inlvolved in all of this that weren't contacted or couldn't be contacted due to the limitations Mitchell had. Perhaps this will lead to an even bigger investigation where all parties are subpoenaed and forced to answer questions.

Hokiesox
12-13-2007, 06:33 PM
Selig wins because now he has a researched document with empirical evidence to force the union to agree to stricter drug testing.

It doesn't make me like him.

Daver
12-13-2007, 06:56 PM
Selig wins because now he has a researched document with empirical evidence to force the union to agree to stricter drug testing.



It does no such thing, it still has to be collectively bargained, what does MLB give up for sterner testing? My guess would be the right to contract without union approval.

laxtonto
12-13-2007, 07:04 PM
So your telling me that the PA willing willingly say no to the owners wanting to upgrade drug testing?

They are kinda backed into a corner. They say NO, they get killled in the court of publi opinion. They say yes, they have no leverage....Lose Lose deal for the MLPA


:)

Daver
12-13-2007, 07:34 PM
So your telling me that the PA willing willingly say no to the owners wanting to upgrade drug testing?

They are kinda backed into a corner. They say NO, they get killled in the court of publi opinion. They say yes, they have no leverage....Lose Lose deal for the MLPA


:)

I said no such thing, do not ever put words in my mouth.

laxtonto
12-13-2007, 07:40 PM
Then how can it be possibly bargined with no leverage. It seems an awful lot like the last time baseball decided to start a better drug testing policy. What happened then? Its a no win situation regardless of what the MLPA attempts to do. Bad all the way around

:)

Daver
12-13-2007, 07:44 PM
Then how can it be possibly bargined with no leverage. It seems an awful lot like the last time baseball decided to start a better drug testing policy. What happened then? Its a no win situation regardless of what the MLPA attempts to do. Bad all the way around

:)

The MLBPA does have leverage, MLB does not exist without players. You obviously have 0 clue on what the collective bargaining process is, or how it is conducted. Get back to us when you do.

kevin57
12-13-2007, 07:56 PM
Holding my nose, I give the victory to Selig. He's been at best a wimp at pursuing this crisis and at worst an accomplice with the other owners in avoiding the issue. But, agree or not, he did initiate this process and of course, Mitchell didn't get all the names. That would be impossible, but there's not a soul out there who can now deny the depth and extent of the problem. Selig may have been disingenuous but the union risks looking obstructionist unless it gets with an aggressive program of testing and punishment.

laxtonto
12-13-2007, 09:18 PM
First off, until you realize that this is beyond any form of collective bargining issue and instead is now being tried in the public court of opinion i cant help you.

If you follow the MLBPA track record not only on drug testing but other high profile public perception issues they thend to back down instead of trying to fight the court of public opinion. Its a lose lose propostion. They can posture all they want but do you really thank that any player would be willing to walk out on his guranteed contract over the steriod issue? get a grip.

Second off, realize that regardless of how the CBA is setup, that is including the changes in the last version and the addendum added after the MLBPA caved on the no testing issue, that if the MLBPA continues to fight over this issue they will once again have to answer to congress.

We both know what could happen if Congress gets into the operations of baseball and the MLBPA. Congress, Selig, Fuhr and Mitchel meets next week. By then the MLBPA better be willing to work out a comprehensive deal by then......:)

Daver
12-13-2007, 09:32 PM
First off, until you realize that this is beyond any form of collective bargining issue and instead is now being tried in the public court of opinion i cant help you.

If you follow the MLBPA track record not only on drug testing but other high profile public perception issues they thend to back down instead of trying to fight the court of public opinion. Its a lose lose propostion. They can posture all they want but do you really thank that any player would be willing to walk out on his guranteed contract over the steriod issue? get a grip.

Second off, realize that regardless of how the CBA is setup, that is including the changes in the last version and the addendum added after the MLBPA caved on the no testing issue, that if the MLBPA continues to fight over this issue they will once again have to answer to congress.

We both know what could happen if Congress gets into the operations of baseball and the MLBPA. Congress, Selig, Fuhr and Mitchel meets next week. By then the MLBPA better be willing to work out a comprehensive deal by then......:)

First off. learn to use the shift key.

The court of public opinion only goes so far in private labor negotiations, which is what collective bargaining is. MLBPA holds a much better record in this than your attempts at spelling do.

The MLBPA could give a rats ass what congress decides to do, and Bud Selig knows it, the MLBPA has labor law on their side, Selig has nothing.

When you know what you are talking about, get back to us.

laxtonto
12-13-2007, 09:50 PM
MLBPA has a vested intrest in what congress does. Do you not remeber any of these quotes from McCain in March of 2004?

"I blame the union. The union over the years has been very destructive on this. They're not helpful. I blame management. I blame the administration of the league for not cracking down at what is such an obvious problem, which is an embarrassment to the United States, which is hurtful to fans all over the country."


"Your failure to commit to address this issue, straight on and immediately, will motivate this committee to search for legislative remedies," McCain said. "I can tell you and your players you represent, the status quo is not acceptable. We will have to act in some way unless the major league players association acts in a affirmative and rapid fashion. The integrity of the sport and the American people demand a certain level of adherence and standards, that are frankly not being met at this time."

or even this
Selig blaming it on Fehr (doesnt suprise me)
"We accepted less than we wanted because, in my judgment as the Commissioner, we had pushed the MLBPA as far as it would go without a strike and, equally important, the clubs, whatever their convictions, were profoundly concerned about the impact of another strike," Selig said in his testimony.


Do a little research instead of blatantly telling me that the MLBPA doest give a "rats ass". The last time steriods where discussed in Congress, the MLBPA had to knuckle to the pressure.

Sen. Jim Bunning, R-Ky., and Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., introduced a Senate bill calling for a two-year ban followed by a lifetime ban. But they changed that last week to a half-season ban for a first positive test, one season for a second and a lifetime penalty for a third; it would apply to baseball's major and minor leagues, the NFL, NBA and NHL.
In new drug policies that began this year, the NBA doubled its first penalty to 10 games, and the NHL instituted steroid testing for the first time, with a 20-game ban for a first offense.
"I and my colleagues will be watching very closely, and if things unravel, we still have tough legislation we can move through Congress," Bunning said.
Had there not been an agreement, Bunning predicted, the bill would have gone to a vote in the Senate on Tuesday night and passed. He said the legislation won't be withdrawn because he wants to "see what the other major league sports do."



:)

EndemicSox
12-13-2007, 10:35 PM
Big win for Selig and the owners. They have their sacrificial lambs, and today's PR stunt/sham of a report is exactly what they needed to sweep this issue under the rug. I'm sickened by all of, and now I'm listening to MLB's mouthpiece ESPN defend the players at every turn. It's a sick joke on the true fans of the game, one of which they have just lost. So long, friends...

PeteWard
12-14-2007, 06:14 AM
The union tipped off players and teams when "random" tests were coming.

Christ!

I am really thinking of giving up on baseball and all pro sports in general. Cheering for these guys is getting harder and harder to do.

tebman
12-14-2007, 10:53 AM
Big win for Selig and the owners. They have their sacrificial lambs, and today's PR stunt/sham of a report is exactly what they needed to sweep this issue under the rug. I'm sickened by all of, and now I'm listening to MLB's mouthpiece ESPN defend the players at every turn. It's a sick joke on the true fans of the game, one of which they have just lost. So long, friends...
I won't go that far because I love baseball (the game). None of this melodrama with steroids & HGH surprises me because of the huge money involved in Baseball (the business).

Professional baseball has never been pure. The difference though is that the rules of the game are so exacting and so easily understood that the opportunities for cheating are narrow. The deal with performance-enhancers is the unknown: do they really enhance anything? I think Barry Bonds is a self-absorbed SOB, but I have to admit he's a hell of a hitter. Would he have hit fewer homers without the juice? Probably, but he still would've been a great hitter. Lousy teammate, unpleasant person, but great hitter.

Numbers are tainted because we don't know if a doped-up player's numbers are legitimate, and that's what bothers me. It makes baseball's exacting quality too fuzzy and that makes me mad.

As to Selig, he's a horse's ass and a phony. I don't have any data to prove it, but I really don't think he has any constituency beyond the other owners and all they care about is their cash flow. Asking whether this is a victory for Bumbling Bud presumes that he had something to win, and he lost that opportunity years ago as he watched this whole thing develop.

D. TODD
12-14-2007, 12:55 PM
Nobody they both look HORRIBLE. Selig maybe a little worse, as he skirts all blame at this point while the union has accepted a bit more, but they both LOSE!!!!!

TomBradley72
12-14-2007, 07:20 PM
Selig comes of in this whole thing like a total BUFFOON.


He's the commissioner of MLB but shows up for a press conference after not having read the report after he received it THREE days ago? Any executive worth anything would have found a way to completely reveiew it as well as having his staff fully analyze it and provide a thorough summary.
He's said he wasn't aware of the extent of the problem. That he means he is either a complete liar or completely incompetent.
This whole problem developed under his watch...he's 100% accountable for the slow/weak response. He's a shill for the owners. A true commisioner who was more independent from the owners (Kuhn, Giammatti, etc.) would have been much more effective at dealing with the problem.MLB comes across like a complete cesspool through this whole thing. The players, their agents, the coaches/managers, the union, the GMs, the owners, but the buck stops with the leader who is responsible for the "best interests of baseball". Bud "Used Car Salesman" Selig is that guy.

Paulwny
12-14-2007, 07:24 PM
Selig comes of in this whole thing like a total BUFFOON.


He's the commissioner of MLB but shows up for a press conference after not having read the report after he received it THREE days ago? Any executive worth anything would have found a way to completely reveiew it as well as having his staff fully analyze it and provide a thorough summary.
He's said he wasn't aware of the extent of the problem. That he means he is either a complete liar or completely incompetent.
This whole problem developed under his watch...he's 100% accountable for the slow/weak response. He's a shill for the owners. A true commisioner who was more independent from the owners (Kuhn, Giammatti, etc.) would have been much more effective at dealing with the problem.MLB comes across like a complete cesspool through this whole thing. The players, their agents, the coaches/managers, the union, the GMs, the owners, but the buck stops with the leader who is responsible for the "best interests of baseball". Bud "Used Car Salesman" Selig is that guy.

He probably read the report but, by saying he didn't he could avoid any embarrassing questions that might be asked.

TomBradley72
12-14-2007, 07:38 PM
I'm sickened by all of, and now I'm listening to MLB's mouthpiece ESPN defend the players at every turn. It's a sick joke on the true fans of the game, one of which they have just lost. So long, friends...

I'm with you.

I've seen three strikes since I became a fan (1972,1981,1994)...and came back each time. Ths findings of this report don't shock or surprise me, but I find myself questioning whether these players, these coaches/managers, these executives, this commissioner deserve my time and my money.

I've decided they don't.

Baseball is a beautiful game. I'll follow other levels...but not MLB.

TomBradley72
12-14-2007, 07:39 PM
He probably read the report but, by saying he didn't he could avoid any embarrassing questions that might be asked.

Just as bad.

No balls as a leader. He's a coward.