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View Full Version : *Official* Think Positive Thread of the Day - Pants-Pissing Dark Clouds KEEP OUT


Frater Perdurabo
12-12-2007, 06:32 PM
Not signing Hunter, not trading for Cabrera, not signing Fukudome and not signing Rowand almost has put the Sox in a position of "rebuilding," even if they choose not to use that term.

I'm OK with rebuilding, even if KW won't admit that that's what he's doing.

In fact, I'm looking forward to a spring training OF competition between Owens, Anderson, Quentin and Sweeney. Indeed, I'd like to see all of them on the 25-man roster this year. All can play the field well and would help the pitchers with their defense (yes, I know Owens doesn't have a great arm).

The odds are that at least two of those four will not become productive everyday players. But at least one is likely to become a quality player, and there's a good chance that two will. I'm OK with using 2008 to find out who among those four will become good MLB players. If two of those four pan out, they would join Fields and Jenks as young, inexpensive productive players. Add to that promising youngsters like Danks, Floyd and Richar, and suddenly the Sox have an impressive nucleus of young, productive, inexpensive players.

With leadership from a proven leader like Cabrera, and disciplined professionals like Buehrle, Thome, PK, Dye, Linebrink and a resurgent Vazquez leading by example, the Sox just might surprise some of us, even in 2008.

So, KW, ignore your critics and put some of the payroll savings into the bullpen. Sign a veteran pitcher like Colon to an incentive-laden deal.

I'm OK if the Pants-Pissing Dark Clouds jump off the bandwagon for now. Their departure just makes more room for me.

delben91
12-12-2007, 06:57 PM
I'll be going to as many games as possible in 2008 just like any year.

I'm always optimistic, some would probably rightly argue that I'm optimistic to the point of foolishness.

No matter, lets see what some of these guys like Quentin, Richar, Danks, Floyd, Owens, etc can do.

Only one way to find out, put them on the field.

SoxSpeed22
12-12-2007, 06:59 PM
29 teams don't get what they want in a year. If this results in rebuilding, I'm okay with it. Who goes from 72 wins to world champs anyway?

nofluke69
12-12-2007, 07:06 PM
No matter, lets see what some of these guys like Quentin, Richar, Danks, Floyd, Owens, etc can do.

If this is the line up the Sox are going with this year, then gut the team. Blow it all up and trade Thome, Paule, Dye, Crede, AJ, for top level prospects, because you're not going to win this year with the above line up.

delben91
12-12-2007, 07:12 PM
If this is the line up the Sox are going with this year, then gut the team. Blow it all up and trade Thome, Paule, Dye, Crede, AJ, for top level prospects, because you're not going to win this year with the above line up.

Did I say they were going to win this year anywhere in my post?

I'm always optimistic, so I think of the young players on the squad, a good number can become solid contributors. That's all I said.

rowand33
12-12-2007, 07:12 PM
29 teams don't get what they want in a year. If this results in rebuilding, I'm okay with it. Who goes from 72 wins to world champs anyway?

The 2008 Chicago White Sox

santo=dorf
12-12-2007, 07:26 PM
Rebuilding is for pants pissers. We need to reload already.

Domeshot17
12-12-2007, 07:30 PM
so let me get this straight

ppdc say SEASON OVER WE BETTER JUST LOOK AT 2009-2010 and they get ripped

positive thinking frater says "ITS OKAY TO LOSE, IT IS JUST CALLED REBUILDING, I AM OK WITH REBUILDING".


WHAT THE HELL IS THE DIFFERENCE, YOU ARE JUST AS BAD SAYING 2008 IS A LOST CAUSE ALREADY.

Over By There
12-12-2007, 07:43 PM
Wow, that got out of hand quickly. Can't keep a good dark clouder down!

We need a lot of players to play up to their potential this year to contend, but I think we will be pleasantly surprised. I love watching the Sox, and if some of our kids play well, we could be a lot of fun to watch. Also, it's still December, and I have a suspicion that Kenny isn't going to sit on his hands for 3 months. We may not win the World Series this year, but I think we'll be better than a lot of the pessimists on this board think.

Every spring, I feel positive about the Sox and really look forward to the season. I think that's one of the great things about baseball - it's one of the things I really love about the game. And you know what? I hate when people like me are accused of being "like Cubs fans" just because we love the game, love our Sox, and love the optimism that comes with every new season.

SoxSpeed22
12-12-2007, 08:00 PM
We'll just wait and see. Nice try, FP.

hi im skot
12-12-2007, 08:12 PM
What, no PK trade proposals, Frater?


:tongue:

Cuck the Fubs
12-12-2007, 08:22 PM
:D: The Kids Can Play ( version 2 ) :D:

It'll be fun to watch em grow:smile:

Frontman
12-12-2007, 08:22 PM
What, no PK trade proposals, Frater?


:tongue:


It's still early.

But I agree. I can handle it being rebuilding, but the PPDC's with the "Dey won't win until at least 2012, and dat idiot Kenny Williams, dat guy, dis is all hiz fault," isn't considering it rebuilding. They consider it cannon fodder to start the calls for firing Ozzie/Kenny/Sell Jerry Sell.

kittle42
12-12-2007, 09:44 PM
The issue isn't whether they're rebuilding, it's that they obviously had no intention of doing so coming into the offseason and got hosed or outplayed at every turn.

Jjav829
12-12-2007, 10:02 PM
I'm so sick of all this **** about who is a dark cloud and who is a "pants-pisser" and what make someone each and blah blah blah. For ****s sakes, can't you people just ****ing discuss the team without having to label people because of their thoughts. It's in every damn thread! You can't read a ****ing thread on this site without this ****.

And, yes, it's complete double talk. Someone says Kenny should forget about this season and trade away players for the future and what do we get? 10 pages about whether that person is "giving up" or a "dark cloud" or whatever other dumbass phrases people feel the need to use to try to validate their own opinion by acting condescending towards the other person. Yet, this is a "positive" thread, just because it's been labeled as positive. If the title was "Forget this team, it's time to rebuild," this would become another pointless discussion about being a dark cloud.

It's so old and getting really damn annoying.

DickAllen72
12-12-2007, 10:29 PM
:gulp:Here's an optimistic thought: Jerry Owens put up some big offensive numbers (batting avg.-wise not power) in the minors, and at the major league level has already proven to be a high percentage base stealer. If he can bat around .280 with an OBP above .350 this year, he can be the same kind of spark Pods was in '05.

Couple that with the possibilities of Contreras finding his '05 second half groove and Danks and Floyd living up somewhat to KW's expectations, and Linebrink living up to his salary, and the Sox are contenders again.

Oblong
12-12-2007, 10:45 PM
Just a few years ago Tiger fans were pissed off because Adrian Beltre, Rich Aurilia, Carl Pavano, and Miguel Tejada spurned the Tigers best offers. Yes the Sox missed out on some big targets but in 2 or 3 years, heck maybe even 1, you guys will be glad you aren't saddled with those contracts.

This is baseball. How often do things go as the experts predict them before the season starts?

Frontman
12-12-2007, 10:47 PM
Just a few years ago Tiger fans were pissed off because Adrian Beltre, Rich Aurilia, Carl Pavano, and Miguel Tejada spurned the Tigers best offers. Yes the Sox missed out on some big targets but in 2 or 3 years, heck maybe even 1, you guys will be glad you aren't saddled with those contracts.

This is baseball. How often do things go as the experts predict them before the season starts?

Amen to that. We got a whole heck of a lot of time prior to the season starting, no need to panic just yet.

ksimpson14
12-12-2007, 10:57 PM
I'd just like to step in and say hi to all the sheep who are registered here.

Please also give me any updates or positive spins on the housing market, economy, state of cheating in all sports and aspects in society, shooting rampages, etc...

I'll hang up and listen for my answer

Frontman
12-12-2007, 10:59 PM
I'd just like to step in and say hi to all the sheep who are registered here.

Please also give me any updates or positive spins on the housing market, economy, state of cheating in all sports and aspects in society, shooting rampages, etc...
:dtroll::dtroll::dtroll::dtroll:

alohafri
12-12-2007, 11:01 PM
:D: The Kids Can Play ( version 2 ) :D:

It'll be fun to watch em grow:smile:

Thank you!

nccwsfan
12-12-2007, 11:05 PM
:gulp:Here's an optimistic thought: Jerry Owens put up some big offensive numbers (batting avg.-wise not power) in the minors, and at the major league level has already proven to be a high percentage base stealer. If he can bat around .280 with an OBP above .350 this year, he can be the same kind of spark Pods was in '05.

Thank you! Someone else who hasn't given up on Owens....we also have a better #2 hitter in Cabrera, which will set the table nicely for Thome/Konerko/Dye.

Couple that with the possibilities of Contreras finding his '05 second half groove and Danks and Floyd living up somewhat to KW's expectations, and Linebrink living up to his salary, and the Sox are contenders again.

Agreed. Adding a few pitchers to the Spring Training mix wouldn't hurt, but the bullpen is starting to look better. That was supposed to be the #1 offseason priority anyway.

Looking forward to 2008!

stacksedwards
12-12-2007, 11:07 PM
The only thing that will make this off season better is when we find out Neil Cotts if one of the names in the Mitchell Report. You can book it now

Frontman
12-12-2007, 11:48 PM
The only thing that will make this off season better is when we find out Neil Cotts if one of the names in the Mitchell Report. You can I am using the tired, overused phrase "book it" because I actually have nothing interesting to say now

Actually, if his name was on there, would he be annoyed? It always seemed to me he was annoyed after giving up back to back home runs that Ozzie would even consider pulling him.

:D:

goon
12-13-2007, 12:06 AM
Despite the anxiety building in some fans about next season, I genuinely feel like the team, as it stands right now, is decent. It seems like a lot of fans are pointing to how the Sox played last season as an indication on what they will do this year. Most fans thought the exact opposite after 2005 and they didn't even make the playoffs in '06.

The middle of the order still has Thome, Konerko, Dye, good. The Sox upgrade at SS and get a #2 hitter, good. Add a setup man, some addition by subtraction (Erstad, Myers, Bukvich, Cintron, now Gonzalez) and pick up a promising outfielder who gets on base and plays great defense. Then there are younger guys like Richar and Fields, they look like they have a bright future.

I'm not sure where the rotation and bullpen stand, the bullpen is obviously in better shape, the rotation probably isn't as bad as the skeptics are saying. Personally, I'm excited to some younger players being integrated into the roster. They have some spark, some vitality, it's fun to watch them grow as players.

The competition within the division is fierce, but it's difficult to predict baseball. I mean, the Diamondbacks won the NL West this season, while giving up more runs than they scored.:dunno:

Frontman
12-13-2007, 12:14 AM
Despite the anxiety building in some fans about next season, I genuinely feel like the team, as it stands right now, is decent. It seems like a lot of fans are pointing to how the Sox played last season as an indication on what they will do this year. Most fans thought the exact opposite after 2005 and they didn't even make the playoffs in '06.

The middle of the order still has Thome, Konerko, Dye, good. The Sox upgrade at SS and get a #2 hitter, good. Add a setup man, some addition by subtraction (Erstad, Myers, Bukvich, Cintron, now Gonzalez) and pick up a promising outfielder who gets on base and plays great defense. Then there are younger guys like Richar and Fields, they look like they have a bright future.

I'm not sure where the rotation and bullpen stand, the bullpen is obviously in better shape, the rotation probably isn't as bad as the skeptics are saying. Personally, I'm excited to some younger players being integrated into the roster. They have some spark, some vitality, it's fun to watch them grow as players.

The competition within the division is fierce, but it's difficult to predict baseball. I mean, the Diamondbacks won the NL West this season, while giving up more runs than they scored.:dunno:

POTW.

Tragg
12-13-2007, 12:16 AM
As long as Konerko is still on the Sox and Figgins on the Angels, there is Frater opportunity.

Just didn't work out. This team isn't terrible and will have a lot of young players to watch. Could be interesting.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-13-2007, 12:31 AM
call us PPDCs, I got a name for all of you
the PMUP = Pick Me Up Parade

I choose to remain a realist and never be compared to the cub morons who for decades kept saying "our team will be great this year!" when everyone else laughed in their faces. admit that your team sucks and move on.

im a diehard white sox fan and i choose to remain a realist, my team, as is, SUCKS.

go ahead and bash members of the almighty PMUP.

Frontman
12-13-2007, 12:42 AM
call us PPDCs, I got a name for all of you
the PMUP = Pick Me Up Parade

I choose to remain a realist and never be compared to the cub morons who for decades kept saying "our team will be great this year!" when everyone else laughed in their faces. admit that your team sucks and move on.

im a diehard white sox fan and i choose to remain a realist, my team, as is, SUCKS.

go ahead and bash members of the almighty PMUP.

Yep, and there's a new rule to MLB rosters.

If you're not done with your moves by 12PM December 12th of the previous year, you cannot and will not be allowed to make any more moves whatsoever.

kittle42
12-13-2007, 01:49 AM
No one is saying that optimism is bad. But as I said in another thread, I'm sure there are some KC Royals fans who do the same each year when their organization fails in the offseason. Congrats, we are now the KC Royals.

kittle42
12-13-2007, 01:49 AM
I'm so sick of all this **** about who is a dark cloud and who is a "pants-pisser" and what make someone each and blah blah blah. For ****s sakes, can't you people just ****ing discuss the team without having to label people because of their thoughts. It's in every damn thread! You can't read a ****ing thread on this site without this ****.

And, yes, it's complete double talk. Someone says Kenny shouldn't forget about this season and trade away players for the future and what do we get? 10 pages about whether that person is "giving up" or a "dark cloud" or whatever other dumbass phrases people feel the need to use to try to validate their own opinion by acting condescending towards the other person. Yet, this is a "positive" thread, just because it's been labeled as positive. If the title was "Forget this team, it's time to rebuild," this would become another pointless discussion about being a dark cloud.

It's so old and getting really damn annoying.


I am really happy a mod finally said this.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-13-2007, 02:10 AM
I'm so sick of all this **** about who is a dark cloud and who is a "pants-pisser" and what make someone each and blah blah blah. For ****s sakes, can't you people just ****ing discuss the team without having to label people because of their thoughts. It's in every damn thread! You can't read a ****ing thread on this site without this ****.

And, yes, it's complete double talk. Someone says Kenny shouldn't forget about this season and trade away players for the future and what do we get? 10 pages about whether that person is "giving up" or a "dark cloud" or whatever other dumbass phrases people feel the need to use to try to validate their own opinion by acting condescending towards the other person. Yet, this is a "positive" thread, just because it's been labeled as positive. If the title was "Forget this team, it's time to rebuild," this would become another pointless discussion about being a dark cloud.

It's so old and getting really damn annoying.


I.
Love.
You.

Vernam
12-13-2007, 02:43 AM
I'll be going to as many games as possible in 2008 just like any year.Oh, I'll be there. The tickets are essentially paid for. But they were sold under false pretenses, and I do NOT like being deceived. It's very difficult to interpret this off-season as anything but selling the fans a bill of goods. "Losing doesn't sit well with us," the team said. Foolish me, I thought they meant they were intent on contending again. Instead, they're just committed (maybe) to not losing 90 games again. I'm with the Sox all the way, yadda yadda, but if you're going to rebuild, then ****ing rebuild. They're not building a contender, they're not rebuilding, they're becoming . . . just like some other team that I wouldn't root for if my life depended on it.

Vernam

kittle42
12-13-2007, 11:11 AM
They're not building a contender, they're not rebuilding, they're becoming . . . just like some other team that I wouldn't root for if my life depended on it.

They're the AL Central Orioles.

chisoxmike
12-13-2007, 11:14 AM
I'm so sick of all this **** about who is a dark cloud and who is a "pants-pisser" and what make someone each and blah blah blah. For ****s sakes, can't you people just ****ing discuss the team without having to label people because of their thoughts. It's in every damn thread! You can't read a ****ing thread on this site without this ****.

And, yes, it's complete double talk. Someone says Kenny should forget about this season and trade away players for the future and what do we get? 10 pages about whether that person is "giving up" or a "dark cloud" or whatever other dumbass phrases people feel the need to use to try to validate their own opinion by acting condescending towards the other person. Yet, this is a "positive" thread, just because it's been labeled as positive. If the title was "Forget this team, it's time to rebuild," this would become another pointless discussion about being a dark cloud.

It's so old and getting really damn annoying.

Finally.

JB98
12-13-2007, 03:08 PM
Oh, I'll be there. The tickets are essentially paid for. But they were sold under false pretenses, and I do NOT like being deceived. It's very difficult to interpret this off-season as anything but selling the fans a bill of goods. "Losing doesn't sit well with us," the team said. Foolish me, I thought they meant they were intent on contending again. Instead, they're just committed (maybe) to not losing 90 games again. I'm with the Sox all the way, yadda yadda, but if you're going to rebuild, then ****ing rebuild. They're not building a contender, they're not rebuilding, they're becoming . . . just like some other team that I wouldn't root for if my life depended on it.

Vernam

As a fellow season-ticket holder, I agree with you.

There are a lot of people here who say Kenny can't come out and say he's rebuilding. My question: Why not? I'm a long-time Sox fan. I've been through numerous rebuildings. I'm not going to turn my back on the team if they decide to rebuild. Being deceived is what upsets me.

I've seen some people here claim that Kenny is "quietly rebuilding." Bull****. Rebuilding teams don't sign veterans like Buehrle, Dye and AJ to extensions. Rebuilding teams don't trade a reliable starter like Garland for a 33-year-old shortstop. Rebuilding teams take guys like that and trade them for youth. Clearly, that is not what we are doing on the South Side of Chicago.

Lip Man 1
12-13-2007, 04:21 PM
Kudos to Jjav.

Lip

voodoochile
12-13-2007, 04:23 PM
As a fellow season-ticket holder, I agree with you.

There are a lot of people here who say Kenny can't come out and say he's rebuilding. My question: Why not? I'm a long-time Sox fan. I've been through numerous rebuildings. I'm not going to turn my back on the team if they decide to rebuild. Being deceived is what upsets me.

I've seen some people here claim that Kenny is "quietly rebuilding." Bull****. Rebuilding teams don't sign veterans like Buehrle, Dye and AJ to extensions. Rebuilding teams don't trade a reliable starter like Garland for a 33-year-old shortstop. Rebuilding teams take guys like that and trade them for youth. Clearly, that is not what we are doing on the South Side of Chicago.

Well, yeah, but you are a diehard fan. If KW truly was lying it wasn't to keep you in your seats it was to keep the casual bandwagoners who have climbed aboard in the past few years in theirs.

In turn that gives the Sox more money to spend this year and next so there's a higher probability of them returning to playoff contention faster, which in turn will make you happier than those bandwagon folks.

However, I doubt KW intentionally lied. He made good offers to land the players he wanted to land and it didn't happen. Best complaint most people would have after that is, "if he didn't land them he didn't offer enough." Well, duh... but it's not our budget. It's Kenny's budget and he's the one who has to make it work.

pdimas
12-13-2007, 05:07 PM
Im a diehard fan but like to have a little perspective in my life as well. I did some teasing yesterday but people just let it affect them way too much and get all bent out of shape and angry. I understand that this stems from how passionate we all are about our Sox so maybe its not necessarily a bad thing since it comes from that. I believe Kenny made a very good effort to get some deals done and for whatever reason it didn't work out. More and more I am ok with it. Its not that I am trying to convince myself I just think well **** for 19 million a year let the Angels have Torii. I would have been more upset that he spent that much to tell you the truth. Perspective. Yeah at first I was a bit disappointed but I really think that we are going to surprise some people this year. I really think some of those young guys are going to contribute.


I dont believe that a lot of posters were being condescending its just that a lot of posters were sounding so fatalistic. I don't know maybe it has more to do with people's personalities. I personally am always very optimistic a glass is half full type of guy. When things dont work out i figure **** it no sense in dwelling on it let's see how I can move forward and see what tomorrow brings.

For the record I am not content just to field 9 guys and watch baseball. I ****ing hate losing. I can't even remember the number of games I left early because I was so pissed last year. I just honestly think we might have a fighting chance next year and am looking forward to the Sox playing the season out to see what happens.

ode to veeck
12-13-2007, 05:16 PM
They're the AL Central Orioles.

seriously, no they're not

not enough drugs to qualify

roadrunner
12-13-2007, 05:20 PM
Well, yeah, but you are a diehard fan. If KW truly was lying it wasn't to keep you in your seats it was to keep the casual bandwagoners who have climbed aboard in the past few years in theirs.

In turn that gives the Sox more money to spend this year and next so there's a higher probability of them returning to playoff contention faster, which in turn will make you happier than those bandwagon folks.


Complete nonsense. Not wanting to waste an entire summer paying to watch a crappy team does not make someone a "bandwagon" fan. Who the hell are you to make these determinations anyway? All hail to KING WHITE SOX fan.

voodoochile
12-13-2007, 05:30 PM
Well, yeah, but you are a diehard fan. If KW truly was lying it wasn't to keep you in your seats it was to keep the casual bandwagoners who have climbed aboard in the past few years in theirs.

In turn that gives the Sox more money to spend this year and next so there's a higher probability of them returning to playoff contention faster, which in turn will make you happier than those bandwagon folks.


Complete nonsense. Not wanting to waste an entire summer paying to watch a crappy team does not make someone a "bandwagon" fan. Who the hell are you to make these determinations anyway? All hail to KING WHITE SOX fan.

What are you talking about? I wasn't calling anyone in specific a bandwagon fan, but the fact remains that a bunch of "new fans" aka bandwagon fans have climbed on board since late in the 2005 season.

IF KW lied about his intentions to keep a bunch of those fans in their seats next season, it would be to the benefit of the diehards (like me. Like you.)

That's all I was saying before you decided to go nutso on me...:(: :?: :rolleyes:

roadrunner
12-13-2007, 06:02 PM
What are you talking about? I wasn't calling anyone in specific a bandwagon fan, but the fact remains that a bunch of "new fans" aka bandwagon fans have climbed on board since late in the 2005 season.

IF KW lied about his intentions to keep a bunch of those fans in their seats next season, it would be to the benefit of the diehards (like me. Like you.)

That's all I was saying before you decided to go nutso on me...:(: :?: :rolleyes:

I disagree completely with your notion of "new fans" and your definition of "bandwagon". More people will go to the park when the team plays well - plain and simple. Someone who normally goes once a year might go five times, someone who goes to five games normally might buy an ozzie plan ... etc.

KW's lies are not going to hide the talent on the field. People don't go to the park because KW talks tough. You are bending over backwards to provide an excuse for KW. So far this offseason, he has been left holding nothing but himself.

voodoochile
12-13-2007, 06:15 PM
I disagree completely with your notion of "new fans" and your definition of "bandwagon". More people will go to the park when the team plays well - plain and simple. Someone who normally goes once a year might go five times, someone who goes to five games normally might buy an ozzie plan ... etc.

KW's lies are not going to hide the talent on the field. People don't go to the park because KW talks tough. You are bending over backwards to provide an excuse for KW. So far this offseason, he has been left holding nothing but himself.


Which again, completely misses the point of my post. Call em whatever you want to. Like it or not there is a sizeable chunk of "fans" in this town who follow whichever team is hot at the moment. Many of those fans grab season tickets for the team that is popular at the moment. The Sox grabbed a bunch of these floater fans in the past few years and they had to decide whether to renew their season tickets before KW missed out on many of the big names he was targeting. These casual floater fans don't really follow baseball. They don't know who is good or not. They rely on the newspaper to tell them what to look for. They don't have memberships at WSI or any other sports message board and those are the people who a few lies might hold on to. Single game sales and even 9 game packages won't make up for lost season ticket holders. Ron Scheuler should have taught us that lesson. So when you have a good season ticket base, you want to hold on to them because a ticket sold in November cannot change it's mind in August.

Just to be clear. I don't think KW intentionally lied. I do think KW truly wanted Hunter and Cabrera. Things didn't break his way. So he made a good offer on Fukudome - might have even been the best financial offer, but Fukudome said no and went to play for the Flubbies. The folks who seem to have a hard time with KW's actions feel he should have done more. He should have broken the budget in an effort to win now, immediately and damn the budget or the future. I like that he has an eye on both things and am glad he didn't overextend the team if he feels it was a bad thing to do.

However, if KW did lie, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, IMO.

I'm not worried about next year. If things break our way, we'll surprise a lot of people and that's without any changes. If KW can make a few trades or sign some middling FA's to fill a few holes then the odds go up even more.

But go ahead and rant. Go ahead and vent. It won't change a thing, but you can do it anyway...

spawn
12-13-2007, 06:19 PM
Which again, completely misses the point of my post. Call em whatever you want to. Like it or not there is a sizeable chunk of "fans" in this town who follow whichever team is hot at the moment. Many of those fans grab season tickets for the team that is popular at the moment. The Sox grabbed a bunch of these floater fans in the past few years and they had to decide whether to renew their season tickets before KW missed out on many of the big names he was targeting. These casual floater fans don't really follow baseball. They don't know who is good or not. They rely on the newspaper to tell them what to look for. They don't have memberships at WSI or any other sports message board and those are the people who a few lies might hold on to. Single game sales and even 9 game packages won't make up for lost season ticket holders. Ron Scheuler should have taught us that lesson. So when you have a good season ticket base, you want to hold on to them because a ticket sold in November cannot change it's mind in August.

Just to be clear. I don't think KW intentionally lied. I do think KW truly wanted Hunter and Cabrera. Things didn't break his way. So he made a good offer on Fukudome - might have even been the best financial offer, but Fukudome said no and went to play for the Flubbies. The folks who seem to have a hard time with KW's actions feel he should have done more. He should have broken the budget in an effort to win now, immediately and damn the budget or the future. I like that he has an eye on both things and am glad he didn't overextend the team if he feels it was a bad thing to do.

However, if KW did lie, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, IMO.

I'm not worried about next year. If things break our way, we'll surprise a lot of people and that's without any changes. If KW can make a few trades or sign some middling FA's to fill a few holes then the odds go up even more.

But go ahead and rant. Go ahead and vent. It won't change a thing, but you can do it anyway...
Great post. :thumbsup:

pdimas
12-13-2007, 06:21 PM
Which again, completely misses the point of my post. Call em whatever you want to. Like it or not there is a sizeable chunk of "fans" in this town who follow whichever team is hot at the moment. Many of those fans grab season tickets for the team that is popular at the moment. The Sox grabbed a bunch of these floater fans in the past few years and they had to decide whether to renew their season tickets before KW missed out on many of the big names he was targeting. These casual floater fans don't really follow baseball. They don't know who is good or not. They rely on the newspaper to tell them what to look for. They don't have memberships at WSI or any other sports message board and those are the people who a few lies might hold on to. Single game sales and even 9 game packages won't make up for lost season ticket holders. Ron Scheuler should have taught us that lesson. So when you have a good season ticket base, you want to hold on to them because a ticket sold in November cannot change it's mind in August.

Just to be clear. I don't think KW intentionally lied. I do think KW truly wanted Hunter and Cabrera. Things didn't break his way. So he made a good offer on Fukudome - might have even been the best financial offer, but Fukudome said no and went to play for the Flubbies. The folks who seem to have a hard time with KW's actions feel he should have done more. He should have broken the budget in an effort to win now, immediately and damn the budget or the future. I like that he has an eye on both things and am glad he didn't overextend the team if he feels it was a bad thing to do.

I'm not worried about next year. If things break our way, we'll surprise a lot of people and that's without any changes. If KW can make a few trades or sign some middling FA's to fill a few holes then the odds go up even more.

But go ahead and rant. Go ahead and vent. It won't change a thing, but you can do it anyway...


Well put. I really don't understood this whole KW lied to us sentiment. So what should we have done cut off our nose to spite our face? I understand the passion but one has to be rational.

Vernam
12-13-2007, 07:59 PM
There are a lot of people here who say Kenny can't come out and say he's rebuilding. My question: Why not? I'm a long-time Sox fan. I've been through numerous rebuildings. I'm not going to turn my back on the team if they decide to rebuild. Being deceived is what upsets me.Yep, exactly. I wouldn't have been pleased if they had announced a rebuilding effort, but a part of me sure would have been relieved rather than face another half-hearted season. And then I'd have gotten excited about some of the prospects they might have received for several guys who are growing less tradeable by the day. And then I'd have gotten excited about upgrading my seats because some percentage of STHs would bail. :cool:

Vernam

Vernam
12-13-2007, 08:08 PM
Well put. I really don't understood this whole KW lied to us sentiment. So what should we have done cut off our nose to spite our face? I understand the passion but one has to be rational.I wouldn't go quite so far as to say KW lied. But as an organization, the Sox went way out of their way after the season to assure STHs they were going to "get after it" in 2008. Their usual glossy sales material was full of language that made it unmistakable that they were going to shake up the team. Some of it was overtly phrased as a promise or pledge to fans. I don't think I saved it, else I'd post some direct quotes here.

I've never been one to say the Sox owe it to the fans to throw money at free agents. But they do owe us a certain consistency between their rhetoric (including sales pitches) and their actions. Right now there is a HUGE dichotomy between that rhetoric and those actions.

That new marketing firm in charge of our 2008 slogan really has their work cut out for 'em.

I still can't wait for spring training and opening day, but it's been a long time since I felt this let down by management. It doesn't cancel all the good things, but I don't like being baited and switched. Maybe that's the slogan right there . . .

Vernam

JB98
12-13-2007, 08:45 PM
Well, yeah, but you are a diehard fan. If KW truly was lying it wasn't to keep you in your seats it was to keep the casual bandwagoners who have climbed aboard in the past few years in theirs.

In turn that gives the Sox more money to spend this year and next so there's a higher probability of them returning to playoff contention faster, which in turn will make you happier than those bandwagon folks.

However, I doubt KW intentionally lied. He made good offers to land the players he wanted to land and it didn't happen. Best complaint most people would have after that is, "if he didn't land them he didn't offer enough." Well, duh... but it's not our budget. It's Kenny's budget and he's the one who has to make it work.

I don't think it's so much that dollars haven't been spent. As a season-ticket holder, I feel like the Sox gave me assurances that a big shakeup was coming. In my view, a shakeup is necessary coming off a 90-loss season where so much went wrong.

Whether that shakeup entails a series of trades or signings doesn't really matter to me. I don't want us to go into 2008 with essentially the same team that failed miserably in 2007. Right now, I'm looking at a roster that looks a lot like last year's. We really have to hope that guys who struggled last year respond with bounce-back seasons. I think Konerko and Dye will respond. I'm not so confident in some of the pitchers (Contreras, MacDougal, Thornton, et al.).

It makes me uncomfortable because I didn't enjoy watching a mostly veteran team wheez and gasp its way toward 70 wins last season. I don't want to go through that again.

voodoochile
12-13-2007, 11:18 PM
I don't think it's so much that dollars haven't been spent. As a season-ticket holder, I feel like the Sox gave me assurances that a big shakeup was coming. In my view, a shakeup is necessary coming off a 90-loss season where so much went wrong.

Whether that shakeup entails a series of trades or signings doesn't really matter to me. I don't want us to go into 2008 with essentially the same team that failed miserably in 2007. Right now, I'm looking at a roster that looks a lot like last year's. We really have to hope that guys who struggled last year respond with bounce-back seasons. I think Konerko and Dye will respond. I'm not so confident in some of the pitchers (Contreras, MacDougal, Thornton, et al.).

It makes me uncomfortable because I didn't enjoy watching a mostly veteran team wheez and gasp its way toward 70 wins last season. I don't want to go through that again.

Hey, I'm not jumping up and down over the off season either. I'd have preferred to land TorIIII and Cabrera, too. I have questions about the upcoming season as to how good the team will be. Right now I expect about a .500 finish because I expect many of the offensive players to bounce back toward their career averages and the young kids to actually perform adequately (Owens and Richar).

The big moves didn't happen. I don't think that's KW's fault. I think he made as good an effort as he could to land those players and then moved on to Fukudome and Rowand. I'm actually happy we didn't sign Rowand for the amount of coin SF is giving him. I just don't think he's worth that kind of money. Since those things didn't happen and there aren't a lot of "big moves" to make on the FA market, the question is how can the Sox still effect a big shakeup. I don't know that they can, but who knows. If Crede proves he is healthy enough to trade, there is still a chance the Sox could make a fairly substantial move this winter, but really he's their one solid bargaining chip without dealing off PK.

So again, it's wait and see if something breaks our way and if not, hope for the best and expect .500. I don't love it, but I'm not willing to hang KW out to dry over it either...

JB98
12-13-2007, 11:22 PM
Hey, I'm not jumping up and down over the off season either. I'd have preferred to land TorIIII and Cabrera, too. I have questions about the upcoming season as to how good the team will be. Right now I expect about a .500 finish because I expect many of the offensive players to bounce back toward their career averages and the young kids to actually perform adequately (Owens and Richar).

The big moves didn't happen. I don't think that's KW's fault. I think he made as good an effort as he could to land those players and then moved on to Fukudome and Rowand. I'm actually happy we didn't sign Rowand for the amount of coin SF is giving him. I just don't think he's worth that kind of money. Since those things didn't happen and there aren't a lot of "big moves" to make on the FA market, the question is how can the Sox still effect a big shakeup. I don't know that they can, but who knows. If Crede proves he is healthy enough to trade, there is still a chance the Sox could make a fairly substantial move this winter, but really he's their one solid bargaining chip without dealing off PK.

So again, it's wait and see if something breaks our way and if not, hope for the best and expect .500. I don't love it, but I'm not willing to hang KW out to dry over it either...

There are still some guys out there that I would like to see us try to acquire via trade, like Brian Roberts and Josh Hamilton. I feel we can shakeup the roster and improve the team, even without making a big-ticket acquisition.

At this point, maybe KW won't be able to make a significant move until midseason. But right now, I'm sorely disappointed in the way things are going.

DickAllen72
12-13-2007, 11:27 PM
The big moves didn't happen. I don't think that's KW's fault. I think he made as good an effort as he could to land those players and then moved on to Fukudome and Rowand. I'm actually happy we didn't sign Rowand for the amount of coin SF is giving him. I just don't think he's worth that kind of money. Since those things didn't happen and there aren't a lot of "big moves" to make on the FA market, the question is how can the Sox still effect a big shakeup. I don't know that they can, but who knows. If Crede proves he is healthy enough to trade, there is still a chance the Sox could make a fairly substantial move this winter, but really he's their one solid bargaining chip without dealing off PK.

I just wonder if there is any way the Sox can get Alex Rios. I know the Jays are looking for a "quality" starter but I wonder if their scouts project a guy like Gio Gonzalez ready to start in the majors. Maybe a move like Gio and another propect or two?

Would the Jays have any interest in Danks?

Would the Sox risk trading away Vazquez and rely on Gio, Danks and Floyd all in the same rotation? Or maybe sign a guy like Colon or Livan Hernandez as a stop gap?

Rios would look good in CF for the Sox but I'm not sure the Sox have the assets for KW to pull it off. If he did, Rios would surely qualify as a "big fish" and much better in CF than Hunter, Jones, Fukudome or Rowand.

AZChiSoxFan
12-13-2007, 11:36 PM
The big moves didn't happen. I don't think that's KW's fault. I think he made as good an effort as he could to land those players and then moved on to Fukudome and Rowand. I'm actually happy we didn't sign Rowand for the amount of coin SF is giving him. I just don't think he's worth that kind of money. Since those things didn't happen and there aren't a lot of "big moves" to make on the FA market, the question is how can the Sox still effect a big shakeup. I don't know that they can, but who knows. If Crede proves he is healthy enough to trade, there is still a chance the Sox could make a fairly substantial move this winter, but really he's their one solid bargaining chip without dealing off PK.



The problem for Sox fans is that "the big moves" never seem to happen, with the exception of Albert Belle. Oh, there's always some good reason why it didn't, but at the end of the day, they never seem to happen. It's especially frustrating because every year there's some report (if not direct quote) that KW is "going to make a big splash" this off season. We're getting A-rod when he opts out. We're getting Ichiro next off season. We're getting a CF this off season. We're getting Vizquel. We're getting Cabrera.

I understand that you like KW because of 2005. Of course I love what happened in 2005 and while I won't use the word "fluke", some term about lightning in a bottle does come to mind. However, as of right now, I look around and see a team that's not very good and a farm system that's not very good either. Who should be held accountable for that? You posted that you think this team can finish around .500. Swell, that means we'll only finish in 3rd or 4th place and that's your BEST case scenario. I don't see how the Sox are any better right now than they were last year.

BTW, as pessimistic as I am about our chances, I can't wait to pay for Extra Innings so I can watch the Sox next year. My love for the Sox and how I think they will fare in any given year are two totally separate things.

voodoochile
12-13-2007, 11:39 PM
There are still some guys out there that I would like to see us try to acquire via trade, like Brian Roberts and Josh Hamilton. I feel we can shakeup the roster and improve the team, even without making a big-ticket acquisition.

At this point, maybe KW won't be able to make a significant move until midseason. But right now, I'm sorely disappointed in the way things are going.

I don't want anything to do with Brian Robers period. Probably puts me in the minority, but just because he hasn't been busted for HGH or other PED doesn't mean he is clean. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I'd steer clear of everyone on that list just for the principle of the thing and in case some form of punishment is forthcoming for the active players on the list.

I just wonder if there is any way the Sox can get Alex Rios. I know the Jays are looking for a "quality" starter but I wonder if their scouts project a guy like Gio Gonzalez ready to start in the majors. Maybe a move like Gio and another propect or two?

Would the Jays have any interest in Danks?

Would the Sox risk trading away Vazquez and rely on Gio, Danks and Floyd all in the same rotation? Or maybe sign a guy like Colon or Livan Hernandez as a stop gap?

Rios would look good in CF for the Sox but I'm not sure the Sox have the assets for KW to pull it off. If he did, Rios would surely qualify as a "big fish" and much better in CF than Hunter, Jones, Fukudome or Rowand.

I'd love to see KW take a flyer on one of the retread starters out there. Couple of years with an option for a third or something at a reasonable price. It would be nice to have more backup for the young guns and unless they can acquire a guy who is sure to light it up for several years, I don't mind sitting on the kids or packaging one of them with a Crede and other prospects for a stud position player.

champagne030
12-13-2007, 11:48 PM
I just wonder if there is any way the Sox can get Alex Rios. I know the Jays are looking for a "quality" starter but I wonder if their scouts project a guy like Gio Gonzalez ready to start in the majors. Maybe a move like Gio and another propect or two?

Would the Jays have any interest in Danks?

Would the Sox risk trading away Vazquez and rely on Gio, Danks and Floyd all in the same rotation? Or maybe sign a guy like Colon or Livan Hernandez as a stop gap?

Rios would look good in CF for the Sox but I'm not sure the Sox have the assets for KW to pull it off. If he did, Rios would surely qualify as a "big fish" and much better in CF than Hunter, Jones, Fukudome or Rowand.

Umm, **** Danks. Did you not get the memo? The Black Jays (and every other team) are holding out for Floyd. :redneck

Vazquez and others might bring a younger starter of theirs and Rios. It seems they want to trade Rios' salary and potential for the same in a pitcher...We don't have that on our roster. I think it would take Danks/Gio, plus Fields to make them even think twice about it.....

voodoochile
12-13-2007, 11:50 PM
The problem for Sox fans is that "the big moves" never seem to happen, with the exception of Albert Belle. Oh, there's always some good reason why it didn't, but at the end of the day, they never seem to happen. It's especially frustrating because every year there's some report (if not direct quote) that KW is "going to make a big splash" this off season. We're getting A-rod when he opts out. We're getting Ichiro next off season. We're getting a CF this off season. We're getting Vizquel. We're getting Cabrera.

I understand that you like KW because of 2005. Of course I love what happened in 2005 and while I won't use the word "fluke", some term about lightning in a bottle does come to mind. However, as of right now, I look around and see a team that's not very good and a farm system that's not very good either. Who should be held accountable for that? You posted that you think this team can finish around .500. Swell, that means we'll only finish in 3rd or 4th place and that's your BEST case scenario. I don't see how the Sox are any better right now than they were last year.

BTW, as pessimistic as I am about our chances, I can't wait to pay for Extra Innings so I can watch the Sox next year. My love for the Sox and how I think they will fare in any given year are two totally separate things.

Yeah, but big moves like Cabrera or ARod happen once every 2 years or so. Especially now when teams tend to wrap up their big studs to long term deals when they get the chance. How much higher can the payroll realistically go?

And I disagree. I expect .500 if nothing else changes, but the upside is closer to 90 wins. Of course Floyd and Danks both have to perform like #3 starters and Owens needs to put up an OBP of .350 and steal 50 bases for that to happen. Not impossible, but not likely

Nellie_Fox
12-14-2007, 01:15 AM
The problem for Sox fans is that "the big moves" never seem to happen, with the exception of Albert Belle. Oh, there's always some good reason why it didn't, but at the end of the day, they never seem to happen. It's especially frustrating because every year there's some report (if not direct quote) that KW is "going to make a big splash" this off season. We're getting A-rod when he opts out. We're getting Ichiro next off season. The only place I heard that the Sox would get either ARod or Ichiro was from delusional posters on WSI. I don't think either one was remotely on any real radar screen.

ksimpson14
12-14-2007, 04:02 AM
Big moves always happen. Bartolo Colon was big at the time. Garcia was the most sought out trade target. Again, just like 2005 was great, the focus is this offseason now, it has sucked, things don't look great as we're stuck in not being able to win now, but not having an amazing future either, I don't think it makes you less of a fan to view reality, or interpret it that way

JNS
12-14-2007, 10:17 AM
Well, yeah, but you are a diehard fan. If KW truly was lying it wasn't to keep you in your seats it was to keep the casual bandwagoners who have climbed aboard in the past few years in theirs.

In turn that gives the Sox more money to spend this year and next so there's a higher probability of them returning to playoff contention faster, which in turn will make you happier than those bandwagon folks.

However, I doubt KW intentionally lied. He made good offers to land the players he wanted to land and it didn't happen. Best complaint most people would have after that is, "if he didn't land them he didn't offer enough." Well, duh... but it's not our budget. It's Kenny's budget and he's the one who has to make it work.

I don't thank anyone is accusing KW of lying - just being inept and/or unrealistic and bombastic.

That said, the issue of "bandwagon" vs. "diehard" fans is interesting and a lot has been written about it.

There certainly is the issue of income. Most Sox fans don't have the same level of disposable income as Killer (Cub)Bee fans and that hurts attendance, and perhaps TV revenue as well.

For myself, as a couple of others have posted, the endless optimism and unrealistic rah-rahing smacks of Killer Bee fandom, although raised expectations since 2003 seem to be affecting the mood up there as well.

I always thought that one of the great things about being a Sox fan was the idea that OBJECTIVE AND CRITICAL THOUGHT were valued on the South Side. That critical thinking about what the team was/is, what it should/ought to be, what management could do/will do/can't do/won't do was a legitimate topic for diehard fans to discuss.

In my experience, which is fairly long, being pissed off at the Sox has been a long-term state of being for lots of Sox fans. It, along with limited income and totally incompetent upper management - marketing till they got Brooks is a good example - is what kept attendance down.

Without going into it in depth as I know has been done endlessly, while the Killer Bee folks marketed the "Wrigley Field experience" and encouraged the development of the area to the point where its name changed from North Lakeview to Wrigleyville, thus removing going to a Bees game from the idea that they ought to win a few of them, Sox management were looking for "a better class of fan," threatening to move to Florida, giving us Ribbie and Rhubarb, evicting Andy the Clown, discouraging development in the area so that every car parked, every peanut or beer sold would put a buck into their pockets, and evicting a well-loved albeit grungy landmark saloon. And then they gave us PAY TV while the Bees remained on Channel 9. It was a disastrous marketing policy, almost designed to keep (especially the casual) fan away from the ballpark! It's amazing that so many diehard fans stuck with them! There are many, many other marketing disasters that are part of this sad matrix. The good news is that Boyer and his team seem to have turned that around, but it took 20 years for upper management to figure out that they were driving folks TO THE CUBS. So please forgive me if it is difficult to give these guys the benefit of the doubt for more than a few years at a time.

So when KW and JR say that if you guys show up at the ballpark we will put together a good team with the added income, it seems that people actually responded. that upper deck started to fill up. Plus, Brooks Boyer has done a good job. If I am not mistaken, he led the rehab of the Cell, making it in to a much nicer place, with lots of fairly unique fan-friendly features.

My point is that this is not an issue between diehards and/or casual or bandwagon fans. All their dollars are the same shade of green. Furthermore, folks like me can be pissed off at Sox management and still show up - maybe not as much as when the team is competing, but still spend a substantial percentage of disposable income at the Cell. Of course there are bandwagon fans who are capricious and are front-runners. But the majority are casual fans who like a nice evening at the ball park, maybe with fireworks after. Boyer's moves have made the Cell much more attractive to these sorts of fans. And shutting up Einhorn hasn't hurt either.

Bottom line. The Sox are not the Killer Bees. As nice as the Cell might be now, that isn't why most of them buy a ticket. But it has been made nice enough for that to happen much more often.

Meanwhile, nobody thinks anyone lied as far as I know. But a lot of us have been following KW and JR's request to spend dough so the Sox can increase payroll and put a winner out there every year. One of the beauties of baseball is that it is understandable to the average Joe - yes, we all can be GMs. When a team has a lousy off-season, as the Sox seem to be having, it's pretty obvious. So a bunch of us are (again) pissed off, worried, and not liking what they are seeing. There are legitimate reasons for that.

So it really isn't productive when folks start to denigrate us by calling us pants-pissers. It DOES sound like Bees stuff, and it isn't conducive to real discussion, and (it seems to me) is NOT in the rather thoughtful and tragic (in the Shakespearean sense) tradition of Sox fandom. One reason I respond to your posts is that for the most part they are thoughtful, not reactionary, vicious, or childish.

Big Hurt #35=HOF
12-14-2007, 10:42 AM
Mod Edit: You already posted this in the other thread. Please don't make duplicate posts.

soxrme
12-14-2007, 10:51 AM
Very will put!

Lip Man 1
12-14-2007, 01:14 PM
Nellie:

As stated in the past and you can take it for whatever it may be worth to you, I was told by folks in the organization that Ichiro was going to be looked at closely should he get to free agent status.

Unfortunately he never got there and we'll never know what might have happened.

Lip

JNS
12-14-2007, 02:52 PM
Very will put!

Thanks!

The "show up and we will make the team better" routine cracked me up.

How would the market have responded to Lee Iaccoca if he had said: "buy one of these piece-of-**** Chrysler's now and I promise you that the 1985 models will be much better!

And we did it (Sox fans)! JR and Howie Pizer and all their buddies should be on their knees thanking us for trusting them after all the crap they have laid on us for decades.

Then again, along with critical thought, Shakespearean tragedy, and good kosher hot dogs, masochism is very much part of what being a Sox fan is all about.

russ99
12-14-2007, 04:00 PM
I don't thank anyone is accusing KW of lying - just being inept and/or unrealistic and bombastic.

That said, the issue of "bandwagon" vs. "diehard" fans is interesting and a lot has been written about it.

There certainly is the issue of income. Most Sox fans don't have the same level of disposable income as Killer (Cub)Bee fans and that hurts attendance, and perhaps TV revenue as well.

For myself, as a couple of others have posted, the endless optimism and unrealistic rah-rahing smacks of Killer Bee fandom, although raised expectations since 2003 seem to be affecting the mood up there as well.

I always thought that one of the great things about being a Sox fan was the idea that OBJECTIVE AND CRITICAL THOUGHT were valued on the South Side. That critical thinking about what the team was/is, what it should/ought to be, what management could do/will do/can't do/won't do was a legitimate topic for diehard fans to discuss.

In my experience, which is fairly long, being pissed off at the Sox has been a long-term state of being for lots of Sox fans. It, along with limited income and totally incompetent upper management - marketing till they got Brooks is a good example - is what kept attendance down.

Without going into it in depth as I know has been done endlessly, while the Killer Bee folks marketed the "Wrigley Field experience" and encouraged the development of the area to the point where its name changed from North Lakeview to Wrigleyville, thus removing going to a Bees game from the idea that they ought to win a few of them, Sox management were looking for "a better class of fan," threatening to move to Florida, giving us Ribbie and Rhubarb, evicting Andy the Clown, discouraging development in the area so that every car parked, every peanut or beer sold would put a buck into their pockets, and evicting a well-loved albeit grungy landmark saloon. And then they gave us PAY TV while the Bees remained on Channel 9. It was a disastrous marketing policy, almost designed to keep (especially the casual) fan away from the ballpark! It's amazing that so many diehard fans stuck with them! There are many, many other marketing disasters that are part of this sad matrix. The good news is that Boyer and his team seem to have turned that around, but it took 20 years for upper management to figure out that they were driving folks TO THE CUBS. So please forgive me if it is difficult to give these guys the benefit of the doubt for more than a few years at a time.

So when KW and JR say that if you guys show up at the ballpark we will put together a good team with the added income, it seems that people actually responded. that upper deck started to fill up. Plus, Brooks Boyer has done a good job. If I am not mistaken, he led the rehab of the Cell, making it in to a much nicer place, with lots of fairly unique fan-friendly features.

My point is that this is not an issue between diehards and/or casual or bandwagon fans. All their dollars are the same shade of green. Furthermore, folks like me can be pissed off at Sox management and still show up - maybe not as much as when the team is competing, but still spend a substantial percentage of disposable income at the Cell. Of course there are bandwagon fans who are capricious and are front-runners. But the majority are casual fans who like a nice evening at the ball park, maybe with fireworks after. Boyer's moves have made the Cell much more attractive to these sorts of fans. And shutting up Einhorn hasn't hurt either.

Bottom line. The Sox are not the Killer Bees. As nice as the Cell might be now, that isn't why most of them buy a ticket. But it has been made nice enough for that to happen much more often.

Meanwhile, nobody thinks anyone lied as far as I know. But a lot of us have been following KW and JR's request to spend dough so the Sox can increase payroll and put a winner out there every year. One of the beauties of baseball is that it is understandable to the average Joe - yes, we all can be GMs. When a team has a lousy off-season, as the Sox seem to be having, it's pretty obvious. So a bunch of us are (again) pissed off, worried, and not liking what they are seeing. There are legitimate reasons for that.

So it really isn't productive when folks start to denigrate us by calling us pants-pissers. It DOES sound like Bees stuff, and it isn't conducive to real discussion, and (it seems to me) is NOT in the rather thoughtful and tragic (in the Shakespearean sense) tradition of Sox fandom. One reason I respond to your posts is that for the most part they are thoughtful, not reactionary, vicious, or childish.

Great post.

My take on the pants-pissers thing is this mentality among some (bandwagony?) fans assuming the season's over before Spring Training hasn't begun, just because the Tigers got a few players.

I think all Sox fans know where you're coming from and most of us welcome such a rational well-thought out discussion.

As for me, I've always gone to Sox games, even to 4-5 games the year after the strike when I probably was the most peeved at the current Sox ownership. What I can't deal with is when the product on the field doesn't even try. I'd prefer a team of low-payroll hustling kids to the kind of baseball like for that Twins doubleheader last year.

I think the 2008 Sox will be neither of those two cases, and depending on what Kenny does from now until the middle of February will determine how much I spend on Sox baseball next season. Regardless, I certainly won't stop going to games or cheering on and following Sox baseball.

voodoochile
12-14-2007, 04:21 PM
Great post.

My take on the pants-pissers thing is this mentality among some (bandwagony?) fans assuming the season's over before Spring Training hasn't begun, just because the Tigers got a few players.

I think all Sox fans know where you're coming from and most of us welcome such a rational well-thought out discussion.

As for me, I've always gone to Sox games, even to 4-5 games the year after the strike when I probably was the most peeved at the current Sox ownership. What I can't deal with is when the product on the field doesn't even try. I'd prefer a team of low-payroll hustling kids to the kind of baseball like for that Twins doubleheader last year.

I think the 2008 Sox will be neither of those two cases, and depending on what Kenny does from now until the middle of February will determine how much I spend on Sox baseball next season. Regardless, I certainly won't stop going to games or cheering on and following Sox baseball.

Not liking the way the off season has progressed to date doesn't make one a PPDC. As you pointed out, rational well thought out discussion is always welcome. It's the dumbasses who feel they have to enlighten all the rest of us that KW is the Devil and needs to be fired and that due to his Devil ways, the Sox are out of the running for the next 3 years that upsets people.

Look around I don't think you'll find a single post that is all sunshine and feel good for the upcoming season. I don't see a single poster proclaiming the Sox the lock of the 2008 season to win the Pennant and stomp through whatever crappy AAAA team the NL manages to land in the Fall Classic. There are people like me who are taking a wait and see approach to things because the off season still isn't over and of course there's a chance that last season was the fluke and this season will see the team return to 2005-6 form and make a run at the playoffs.

Some people feel that's delusional. I prefer to think of it as optimistic. Either way, I'm excited to see Richar, Quentin and the young pitchers play regularly and I'm holding out hope that Owens or Anderson will give me a reason to cheer...

Frater Perdurabo
12-14-2007, 06:08 PM
Nellie:

As stated in the past and you can take it for whatever it may be worth to you, I was told by folks in the organization that Ichiro was going to be looked at closely should he get to free agent status.

Unfortunately he never got there and we'll never know what might have happened.

Lip

I have no evidence to confirm or refute what you heard from your sources, but it seems to me that it makes sense that pursuing Ichiro was KW's plan when he re-signed Buehrle. It's too bad it didn't work out that way. I would have loved to have a Japanese 1-2 of Ichiro and Iguchi.

Jjav829
12-15-2007, 11:33 AM
I don't thank anyone is accusing KW of lying - just being inept and/or unrealistic and bombastic.

That said, the issue of "bandwagon" vs. "diehard" fans is interesting and a lot has been written about it.

There certainly is the issue of income. Most Sox fans don't have the same level of disposable income as Killer (Cub)Bee fans and that hurts attendance, and perhaps TV revenue as well.

For myself, as a couple of others have posted, the endless optimism and unrealistic rah-rahing smacks of Killer Bee fandom, although raised expectations since 2003 seem to be affecting the mood up there as well.

I always thought that one of the great things about being a Sox fan was the idea that OBJECTIVE AND CRITICAL THOUGHT were valued on the South Side. That critical thinking about what the team was/is, what it should/ought to be, what management could do/will do/can't do/won't do was a legitimate topic for diehard fans to discuss.

In my experience, which is fairly long, being pissed off at the Sox has been a long-term state of being for lots of Sox fans. It, along with limited income and totally incompetent upper management - marketing till they got Brooks is a good example - is what kept attendance down.

Without going into it in depth as I know has been done endlessly, while the Killer Bee folks marketed the "Wrigley Field experience" and encouraged the development of the area to the point where its name changed from North Lakeview to Wrigleyville, thus removing going to a Bees game from the idea that they ought to win a few of them, Sox management were looking for "a better class of fan," threatening to move to Florida, giving us Ribbie and Rhubarb, evicting Andy the Clown, discouraging development in the area so that every car parked, every peanut or beer sold would put a buck into their pockets, and evicting a well-loved albeit grungy landmark saloon. And then they gave us PAY TV while the Bees remained on Channel 9. It was a disastrous marketing policy, almost designed to keep (especially the casual) fan away from the ballpark! It's amazing that so many diehard fans stuck with them! There are many, many other marketing disasters that are part of this sad matrix. The good news is that Boyer and his team seem to have turned that around, but it took 20 years for upper management to figure out that they were driving folks TO THE CUBS. So please forgive me if it is difficult to give these guys the benefit of the doubt for more than a few years at a time.

So when KW and JR say that if you guys show up at the ballpark we will put together a good team with the added income, it seems that people actually responded. that upper deck started to fill up. Plus, Brooks Boyer has done a good job. If I am not mistaken, he led the rehab of the Cell, making it in to a much nicer place, with lots of fairly unique fan-friendly features.

My point is that this is not an issue between diehards and/or casual or bandwagon fans. All their dollars are the same shade of green. Furthermore, folks like me can be pissed off at Sox management and still show up - maybe not as much as when the team is competing, but still spend a substantial percentage of disposable income at the Cell. Of course there are bandwagon fans who are capricious and are front-runners. But the majority are casual fans who like a nice evening at the ball park, maybe with fireworks after. Boyer's moves have made the Cell much more attractive to these sorts of fans. And shutting up Einhorn hasn't hurt either.

Bottom line. The Sox are not the Killer Bees. As nice as the Cell might be now, that isn't why most of them buy a ticket. But it has been made nice enough for that to happen much more often.

Meanwhile, nobody thinks anyone lied as far as I know. But a lot of us have been following KW and JR's request to spend dough so the Sox can increase payroll and put a winner out there every year. One of the beauties of baseball is that it is understandable to the average Joe - yes, we all can be GMs. When a team has a lousy off-season, as the Sox seem to be having, it's pretty obvious. So a bunch of us are (again) pissed off, worried, and not liking what they are seeing. There are legitimate reasons for that.

So it really isn't productive when folks start to denigrate us by calling us pants-pissers. It DOES sound like Bees stuff, and it isn't conducive to real discussion, and (it seems to me) is NOT in the rather thoughtful and tragic (in the Shakespearean sense) tradition of Sox fandom. One reason I respond to your posts is that for the most part they are thoughtful, not reactionary, vicious, or childish.

This is a great post. :thumbsup:

The part in bold is especially good. And let me expand of my earlier rant. Here's the problem I have with all the labeling and name-calling:

- It does absolutely nothing for increasing the intelligence level of discourse around here. All it does is sink some people who can normally have good, rational discussions down to the level of the people who throw out blanket statements about how KW sucks.

- A lot of it is very generic. If someone is truly over-the-top, and there have been some like that this offseason, then they should be called on it directly. But call them on it. Don't just throw it out there and let people make their own decision about to who you are referring. Make it specific. I'm not saying insult or label the person, but attack their post, not them. After all, that is one of our rules here. And if someone is so out of hand, then their posting privileges will be dealt with by the WSI staff.

This site is very black-and-white sometimes. And a lot of people can't respect the fact that someone else has a different opinion. This is what makes for good discussion; the fact that different people can think different things. If we all thought the Sox were in great position, or that they were screwed, there would be no point to this site. Furthermore, that's part of what makes sports so fun to discuss. There are numerous topics on which you can have an opinion, from teams to players to stats to strategies and so on. And there are wide-ranging opinions on all of these topics. The idea is to be able to discuss and debate the topics, not the person who has an opinion about them.

voodoochile
12-15-2007, 12:11 PM
This is a great post. :thumbsup:

The part in bold is especially good. And let me expand of my earlier rant. Here's the problem I have with all the labeling and name-calling:

- It does absolutely nothing for increasing the intelligence level of discourse around here. All it does is sink some people who can normally have good, rational discussions down to the level of the people who throw out blanket statements about how KW sucks.

- A lot of it is very generic. If someone is truly over-the-top, and there have been some like that this offseason, then they should be called on it directly. But call them on it. Don't just throw it out there and let people make their own decision about to who you are referring. Make it specific. I'm not saying insult or label the person, but attack their post, not them. After all, that is one of our rules here. And if someone is so out of hand, then their posting privileges will be dealt with by the WSI staff.

This site is very black-and-white sometimes. And a lot of people can't respect the fact that someone else has a different opinion. This is what makes for good discussion; the fact that different people can think different things. If we all thought the Sox were in great position, or that they were screwed, there would be no point to this site. Furthermore, that's part of what makes sports so fun to discuss. There are numerous topics on which you can have an opinion, from teams to players to stats to strategies and so on. And there are wide-ranging opinions on all of these topics. The idea is to be able to discuss and debate the topics, not the person who has an opinion about them.

I agree that many terms (like dark cloud and corpseball) have lost a lot of their original meaning and that they get over used as a general rule by people simply looking to dismiss another poster's opinion.

However, what's the difference between saying, "you're a PPDC" or saying "Your opinion makes you LOOK like a PPDC"? To me that's a discussion of sentence structure and doesn't add much to the discussion.

In addition, I think it's naive to enter a thread with a title like "*Official* Think Positive Thread of the Day - Pants-Pissing Dark Clouds KEEP OUT" and not expect to see people putting a positive spin on things and reacting negatively to people who counter with negative rebuttals of said positive spin. It's sort of like all the people who open a Fenway thread with the word Boston in the title and then get upset that the thread is about Boston in some manner. :?:

PPDC or Pollyanna, we are all in this together as Sox fans and there is plenty of room for both sides of the equation...

SBSoxFan
12-15-2007, 12:25 PM
PPDC or Pollyanna, we are all in this together as Sox fans and there is plenty of room for both sides of the equation...

:hug:

JNS
12-15-2007, 12:32 PM
This is a great post. :thumbsup:

The part in bold is especially good. And let me expand of my earlier rant. Here's the problem I have with all the labeling and name-calling:

- It does absolutely nothing for increasing the intelligence level of discourse around here. All it does is sink some people who can normally have good, rational discussions down to the level of the people who throw out blanket statements about how KW sucks.

- A lot of it is very generic. If someone is truly over-the-top, and there have been some like that this offseason, then they should be called on it directly. But call them on it. Don't just throw it out there and let people make their own decision about to who you are referring. Make it specific. I'm not saying insult or label the person, but attack their post, not them. After all, that is one of our rules here. And if someone is so out of hand, then their posting privileges will be dealt with by the WSI staff.

This site is very black-and-white sometimes. And a lot of people can't respect the fact that someone else has a different opinion. This is what makes for good discussion; the fact that different people can think different things. If we all thought the Sox were in great position, or that they were screwed, there would be no point to this site. Furthermore, that's part of what makes sports so fun to discuss. There are numerous topics on which you can have an opinion, from teams to players to stats to strategies and so on. And there are wide-ranging opinions on all of these topics. The idea is to be able to discuss and debate the topics, not the person who has an opinion about them.

Long post – sorry about that.

Thanks!


I think one of the issues is that us Sox fans really are passionate and in the end ARE more thoughtful than most fans; certainly those on the other side of town. And given the extremely dramatic history of the team, there is a sense among us that in some way - silly though it may be in light of what is going on in the real world - that we are something special.

What do I mean by dramatic? Let's see. In the first 20 years of the 20th century the Sox were one of top teams in the game. And the AL was based in Chicago - Chuck Comiskey and Ban Johnson were mortal enemies. All of which lead us, along with the sins of Chuck Comiskey, an illiterate left fielder from Dixie, a man of very bad character at 1st base, an innocent who still got screwed at 3rd, etc., etc., into 1919. No reason to go into that - we all are very familiar with it. But hey - it was dramatic enough for an esteemed director to make a star-studded flick about it.

Then come thirty years in the wilderness. The era of our Dads development. The era of Jean Shepherd's "Gehrig you New York Bum!" if any one here has seen that immortal video.

Then we get, starting in about 1950, the go-go era, culminating in the ownership of Bill Veeck. Veeck is labeled a "huckster" and a goof-ball, but in fact he was the only MLB owner who in some way could be termed an intellectual. He was a very thoughtful guy - most owners in MLB history are just schmucks; former Chevy salesmen in the mold of Selig, who get very rich, and bought a team. Or they were ancient jocks like Clark and/or Calvin Griffith of the Senators/Twins. Or Chuck Comiskey and Connie Mack. The McPhail family, not counting the youngest one has a few similarities to Veeck, and certainly Branch Rickey, but in many ways, Veeck was unique.

Veeck's presiding over the first pennant in forty years made him and the team he fielded immortal to Sox fans. The fact that he almost immediately (by his own admission) destroyed the team with bad trades – very much like what some of us think KW has done – is beside the point.

His legacy lived on for the next several years – as most of us know, the Sox were the #1 team in town and true contenders through the mid-60s.

The late 60s and early 70s, with a very short respite during the tenures of Dick Allen and the prime of Wilbur Wood – both fantastic personalities in their own rights – were down times. But then, in most dramatic fashion, just as the bankrupt team was about to be sold to a group fronted by (of all people) Danny Kaye and moved to Seattle, old man Dick Daley steps in, brings Veeck out of semi-retirement in Maryland and saves the Sox for us.

Of course the dullards, led by that racist, low-IQ knucklehead Bowie Kuhn screwed Veeck so that he didn’t have the credit or available cash to do more than invent the “rent-a-player” concept, he gave us lots of fun, plus disco demolition, which really was the invention of his son Mike – and one more magic 2/3 of a season in 1977. Then his attempted sale to guys who turned the 49ers into one of the great teams in the NFL was quashed by the idiots brigade at MLB, and we got our present less-that-satisfactory owners.

When you compare that to the mundane history of most sports franchises, it’s pretty eventful, even with the dull period from 1920 to 1950.

Plus, us Sox fans are somewhat paranoid. WE KNOW that we and our team are special and different – not special the way all fans think their team is special, but really, actually special. Again, this is due to the drama. The drama of a huge national scandal. The drama of all the Veeck stuff. The drama of twice saving the team from departing to other climes at the last minute. The first exploding scoreboard. On and on.

BUT WE ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO RECOGNIZE THIS! All the other ex-jocks, or low-IQ national TV play-by-play guys, or businessmen who own teams, or drunken scribes, or fans of other, less illustrious teams just look at the Sox as a mediocre #2 team in a great Midwestern metropolis.

To paraphrase what Leo Durocher once said about the Dodgers when he was managing the Giants: “The White Sox, are they still in the league?” And this is a totally unfair characterization of the Sox. In the collective unconscious of Sox fans it makes us paranoid. It gives us a hostile edge. IT MAKES US ANGRY AND INSECURE.

Hell, it seems as if the national media has already forgotten that the Sox won the whole thing in 2005. Ironically, the 2005 post-season was fairly un-dramatic for anyone who is not a Sox fan. The Sox swept everyone so decisively that it was over before anyone out there noticed. No game seven, no Yankees vs. Red Sox stuff that makes the national media get all auto-erotic. In fact, guys like Chris Berman were dissing the Sox as they kicked the **** out of Boston.

WE JUST CAN’T GET NO RESPECT. AND WE DESERVE RESPECT. So we are all on edge all the time. We eat our young. We flail about. We look to our dramatic past. We clutch straws.

This is all a very long-winded way of saying that the interplay of ideas, the hostility, the angst, the optimism, the clinically depressed pessimism; all of these things, and a whole lot more go into what we are collectively. So things get dicy.

LET THE FUN CONTINUE! And ferchrissakes, lets get another winner out there! If not in 08, OK, then re-build. But now that we know how to do it right, let’s do it again!