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twinsuck1
12-12-2007, 07:42 AM
According to Steve Stone this morning on the Score, Cleveland looks to be front runners In a deal for Dan Haren. :o:

Dice
12-12-2007, 07:47 AM
Now that sucks.

twinsuck1
12-12-2007, 07:48 AM
Did Kenny burn bridges with Billy Beane? I am wondering If we have had any talks with them?

PorkChopExpress
12-12-2007, 08:03 AM
If this happens does Detroit have to give the championship to the Indians?

Seriously, though, everyone had Detroit as the favorites after their big trade. If Cleveland acquired Dan Haren, don't they become the favorites again? That staff will be nasty. The top three are tough - CC, Haren, Carmona!

soxyess
12-12-2007, 08:05 AM
If this happens does Detroit have to give the championship to the Indians?

Seriously, though, everyone had Detroit as the favorites after their big trade. If Cleveland acquired Dan Haren, don't they become the favorites again? That staff will be nasty. The top three are tough - CC, Haren, Carmona!

Oh well a battle between the Tigers and Indians, and we are destined for another battle with KC!

ChiSoxIn06
12-12-2007, 08:08 AM
why does it seem all the big name people ae going to all our division rivals while we are stuck here with our thumb up our asses?

oeo
12-12-2007, 08:21 AM
Oh well a battle between the Tigers and Indians, and we are destined for another battle with KC!

Just keep the unthoughtful posts coming, soxyess.

Look...you want a winner just like everyone else here. I know we're just 'two years from a World Series title,' but the reason we're in the situation we are now, is because we went to that 'win now' thought process.

You're choice...we can overpay for FAs, trade away what's left of our farm system, and have the possibility of winning in 2008 and maybe 2009; then go right back to where we are, instead with debt. What will your solution be then? If we won in 2008, would you be giving us the same talks in 2011? When does it stop? When do we actually have to take the time to rebuild?

If you're honestly getting pissed that we're not overpaying, then you're not thinking clearly. The team is in bad shape right now, signing Free Agents and trading away what's left of a weak farm system is not going to make things better (maybe for the short term, but that's it).

Sorry, but your plans ****ing suck. If we can rebuild the team, and consistently have help coming from the minors, then we may have the opportunity to overpay for Free Agents, or land some 'big fish' like Cabrera. Let's take the time to do that...instead of going the same route we did a few years ago, which would put us right back where we are in a couple of years.

This goes to Kenny, too. Screw these plans to win now, it's not going to happen, and only further hurt the organization. Let's start looking towards the future, because right now it looks pretty bad.

soxyess
12-12-2007, 08:27 AM
Just keep the unthoughtful posts coming, soxyess.

Look...you want a winner just like everyone else here. I know we're just 'two years from a World Series title,' but the reason we're in the situation we are now, is because we went to that 'win now' thought process.

You're choice...we can overpay for FAs, trade away what's left of our farm system, and have the possibility of winning in 2008 and maybe 2009; then go right back to where we are, instead with debt. What will your solution be then? If we won in 2008, would you be giving us the same talks in 2011? When does it stop? When do we actually have to take the time to rebuild?

If you're honestly getting pissed that we're not overpaying, then you're not thinking clearly. The team is in bad shape right now, signing Free Agents and trading away what's left of a weak farm system is not going to make things better (maybe for the short term, but that's it).

Sorry, but your plans ****ing suck. If we can rebuild the team, and consistently have help coming from the minors, then we may have the opportunity to overpay for Free Agents, or land some 'big fish' like Cabrera. Let's take the time to do that...instead of going the same route we did a few years ago, which would put us right back where we are in a couple of years.

I understand what your saying, and I have no problem with us rebuilding. In fact I wanted to do so last year, but im ticked at KW saying we're going for it then he doesnt go for it. Id rather hear my GM say we are going to rebuild our organization so we can consistantly compete in a couple of years, but when your GM says we dont rebuild we reload then I say ok if you 're approaching it with that mentality then go sign the free agents that you need to win right away. KW is doing the worst possible thing. He's talking a big game and not delivering.

oeo
12-12-2007, 08:33 AM
I understand what your saying, and I have no problem with us rebuilding. In fact I wanted to do so last year, but im ticked at KW saying we're going for it then he doesnt go for it. Id rather hear my GM say we are going to rebuild our organization so we can consistantly compete in a couple of years, but when your GM says we dont rebuild we reload then I say ok if you 're approaching it with that mentality then go sign the free agents that you need to win right away. KW is doing the worst possible thing. He's talking a big game and not delivering.

He was 'going for it.' Things didn't work out as planned. Other teams were willing to overpay.

I'm sure he has some other creative way to make the team better in the short term, but I honestly do not want that to happen. The team is in terrible shape, trying to win now is only going to put it in worse shape. And I never thought Reinsdorf would ever fire Kenny, but in another year or so, if his 'win now' plan didn't work, he would be shown the door.

What's best for the organization right now isn't to win a title in 2008. A lot of things would still have to change, and a lot of things would have to go right. It's not worth the risk right now; not when our farm system is in shambles, and the rest of our team is aging.

WhiteSox5187
12-12-2007, 08:38 AM
He was 'going for it.' Things didn't work out as planned. Other teams were willing to overpay.

I'm sure he has some other creative way to make the team better in the short term, but I honestly do not want that to happen. The team is in terrible shape, trying to win now is only going to put it in worse shape. And I never thought Reinsdorf would ever fire Kenny, but in another year or so, if his 'win now' plan didn't work, he would be shown the door.

What's best for the organization right now isn't to win a title in 2008. A lot of things would still have to change, and a lot of things would have to go right. It's not worth the risk right now; not when our farm system is in shambles, and the rest of our team is aging.
We keep coming back to this idea of "overpaying," that's the market now. A guy like Rowand is going to be able to command a Konerko like contract, and Tori Hunter will be able to command anywhere from 70-90 million. If the Sox can't deal with that, fine. Just come out and say so though. Say we're rebuilding because we don't like the way the market is heading. But our deals with MB, JD, and AJ seem to suggest that we think we can compete soon...

oeo
12-12-2007, 08:42 AM
We keep coming back to this idea of "overpaying," that's the market now.

Let's see. Ichiro and Vernon Wells are making the same as Torii Hunter and Andruw Jones. Something is wrong there....

That was not the market this year. The Angels splurged and therefore raised the bar once again. I thought with some actual talent this year in the outfield free agent market, the prices would level out...I was definitely wrong, because once again there were teams willing to overpay.

Of course, now it's the ****ing market. But you're kidding me if you could have predicted back in October that Torii Hunter was going to get $18 million a year or Andruw Jones was going to get the same.

WhiteSox5187
12-12-2007, 08:49 AM
Let's see. Ichiro and Vernon Wells are making the same as Torii Hunter and Andruw Jones. Something is wrong there....

That was not the market this year. The Angels splurged and therefore raised the bar once again.
I think it was understood that had Ichiro hit the market this year he was going to command a hell of a lot more than whatever he would have gotten with the Mariners would have offered him. Ichiro took a discount as far as I'm concerned....I'm not sure what Vernon Wells' deal is. As for Jones, an 18 million dollar contract isn' that bad for a guy coming off a year when he hit .222 and appeared to have lost a step in the field.

Since Tori was the first big FA signing this year he was really going to determine what the market was. And if he was number one on the Sox charts, they really should have made a deal that was going to blow him away, not just be competitive. The Hunter signing determined the market, so that's the second year in a row a player who puts up good stats (but isn't by any means a future HOFer) has gotten "over paid." That should tell us that if we want to sign a guy like Torii next year we are going to have to "over pay." That's the way the market is now. Sucks, but it's true.

Tragg
12-12-2007, 08:55 AM
He was 'going for it.' Things didn't work out as planned. Other teams were willing to overpay.


But was Williams really "going for it"? Remember last June and July - he wanted to dump doggie. He wanted to trade MB, trade Garland, trade Contreras and trade Dye. He didn't like the market so he reversed field. Credit for being flexible, I guess. But now, he's faced with a different market and he's reversing field again - he doesn't want to acquire talent. So the Sox are left with a hodge podge of part going for it, part retracting. In a small picture, it's the sign Uribe on Monday and trade for Cabrera on Tuesday----whatever the reason/excuse/new information - Williams is reacting - he's no longer driving the train.

I agree with you that we shouldn't overpay FA or overpay in trade to bring a player here for a year. I don't think the team is in horrendous shape either - certainly not good enough to win anything, though. And it wont' be with the addition of 1 or 2 players.

ma-gaga
12-12-2007, 09:13 AM
I call bull****. And hey, I don't just call it out, I did some "research" and found the link that Steve Stone used for his "source". Here. (http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1197452548280821.xml&coll=2&thispage=1)

Here's the funny quote from the link:

The Indians figure it will cost at least one player off their 25-man roster and at least one more that could contribute sometime during the season. The competition for Haren would be strong. The Yankees, Dodgers and Arizona are believed to have the inside track.

'Gee Hornsey. Ya think?'

ooh. Did some more "research" apparently maybe Stone has two "sources", here's another link. (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/12/12/SPNBTSBLA.DTL&feed=rss.athletics) At least this one offers a little more meat:

The Indians could move three top pitching prospects for Haren, however, and though that would leave Cleveland thin for future seasons, the package might be more attractive than the best offer to date, a four-to-five prospect proposal from Arizona.

But I don't think that Cleveland has the pieces to get a Haren or Bedard type player. The A's and Orioles have to ask for as much as the Twins are asking for Santana; which is 3-4 players and two of them have to be major league ready and with upside.

I want to see the "package" of players that Cleveland can offer. Hornsey's offer is crap. At least the second link talked about Asdrubal Cabrera who could be a piece of an offer.

:cool:

wulfy
12-12-2007, 09:19 AM
We keep coming back to this idea of "overpaying," that's the market now. A guy like Rowand is going to be able to command a Konerko like contract, and Tori Hunter will be able to command anywhere from 70-90 million. If the Sox can't deal with that, fine. Just come out and say so though. Say we're rebuilding because we don't like the way the market is heading. But our deals with MB, JD, and AJ seem to suggest that we think we can compete soon...

Thank you ... we seem to be so concerned with "over-paying" for talent - but that is what the price for free agent talent is in baseball today. If you had drafted better, you would not need free agency to compete.

It's like saying I don't want to put gas in my car because I think $3.16 is too high and the petroleum market is out of whack. I mean, c'mon, I paid $2.85 for PREMIUM this time last year - right?

What is my alternative? Ride my bicycle 22 miles to work.

cws05champ
12-12-2007, 09:56 AM
Thank you ... we seem to be so concerned with "over-paying" for talent - but that is what the price for free agent talent is in baseball today. If you had drafted better, you would not need free agency to compete.

It's like saying I don't want to put gas in my car because I think $3.16 is too high and the petroleum market is out of whack. I mean, c'mon, I paid $2.85 for PREMIUM this time last year - right?

What is my alternative? Ride my bicycle 22 miles to work.

Exactly!! Is it over paying when everyone else on the market is paying these amounts? I know that an amount a player makes does not always equate to talent or production of that player because of the differing markets year to year. However, how long are the Sox going to just sit and say that they can't pay $1.00 when they only have $0.50?

balke
12-12-2007, 10:07 AM
I still don't believe that Beane is going to trade Haren before Harden. We'll see though I guess.

spiffie
12-12-2007, 10:09 AM
Let's see. Ichiro and Vernon Wells are making the same as Torii Hunter and Andruw Jones. Something is wrong there....

That was not the market this year. The Angels splurged and therefore raised the bar once again. I thought with some actual talent this year in the outfield free agent market, the prices would level out...I was definitely wrong, because once again there were teams willing to overpay.

Of course, now it's the ****ing market. But you're kidding me if you could have predicted back in October that Torii Hunter was going to get $18 million a year or Andruw Jones was going to get the same.
And Jason Marquis is earning more than Sandy Koufax earned in his entire career.

Baseball is making more money every year. The contracts of those lucky enough to be free agents now are going to be higher than those who were locked in a few years ago.

The prices will never level out. The only time that happened was when teams pulled back from the super mega deals that A-Rod, Jeter, and Ramirez got a few years back. But otherwise the rates are going to keep going every year, and the Sox are going to have to live in that marketplace. Hoping that the 2008 free agent class will cost less than this year's crop seems extremely unlikely.

asindc
12-12-2007, 10:41 AM
I still don't believe that Beane is going to trade Haren before Harden. We'll see though I guess.

I agree 100% with this.

Vestigio
12-12-2007, 11:13 AM
I dont think KW has a problem overpaying for FAs (Linebrink). But why overpay for ONE FA when that money could be spent elsewhere to bolster our other holes?

fquaye149
12-12-2007, 11:20 AM
And Jason Marquis is earning more than Sandy Koufax earned in his entire career.

Baseball is making more money every year. The contracts of those lucky enough to be free agents now are going to be higher than those who were locked in a few years ago.

The prices will never level out. The only time that happened was when teams pulled back from the super mega deals that A-Rod, Jeter, and Ramirez got a few years back. But otherwise the rates are going to keep going every year, and the Sox are going to have to live in that marketplace. Hoping that the 2008 free agent class will cost less than this year's crop seems extremely unlikely.

Well, since Vernon Wells signed last year, I would say your analogy is pretty much airtight:rolleyes:

spiffie
12-12-2007, 11:27 AM
Well, since Vernon Wells signed last year, I would say your analogy is pretty much airtight:rolleyes:
Well, if its flawed it is compounding an original error, since the extension Wells signed pays him as much per year on average, and a greater total than Hunter or Jones signed for. He signed a 7 year, 126 million extension. He might choose to opt out after 2011, when he will make $23 million that year. Of course if he doesn't he will make $21 million each of the next three seasons.

CubKilla
12-12-2007, 11:37 AM
we seem to be so concerned with "over-paying" for talent....

The Sox don't overpay for talent. They save that money for guys like Linebrink.

fquaye149
12-12-2007, 11:58 AM
Well, if its flawed it is compounding an original error, since the extension Wells signed pays him as much per year on average, and a greater total than Hunter or Jones signed for. He signed a 7 year, 126 million extension. He might choose to opt out after 2011, when he will make $23 million that year. Of course if he doesn't he will make $21 million each of the next three seasons.

Are you sure you understand what's at issue?

The problem is that Jones and Hunter are being paid AS MUCH as Wells and Ichiro...at least according to the poster you quoted.

And my point is that it's not like Wells's deal was signed 10 years ago or even 5 years ago. It was last year. That, in and of itself, is a good argument that Hunter and Jones were overpaid, not that the market has inflated exponentially in a single year

WhiteSoxFan84
12-12-2007, 12:00 PM
The Sox don't overpay for talent. They save that money for guys like Linebrink.

looool i dont know if u meant to be funny with this one but u had me laughing outloud loooool

we won't overpay for TALENT like hunter, cabrera, rowand, etc., but we'll overpay for....... "TALENT" like uribe, contreras, linebrink.... oh man this management staff has become laughable. im just glad we got that ring in 2005 or id be truly going insane right now and every memeber of front office would be gone.

Tekijawa
12-12-2007, 12:03 PM
Great! Now it's not just the Tigers that are trying to compete with us!

spiffie
12-12-2007, 12:07 PM
Are you sure you understand what's at issue?

The problem is that Jones and Hunter are being paid AS MUCH as Wells and Ichiro...at least according to the poster you quoted.

And my point is that it's not like Wells's deal was signed 10 years ago or even 5 years ago. It was last year. That, in and of itself, is a good argument that Hunter and Jones were overpaid, not that the market has inflated exponentially in a single year
Here's the thing though. Players who sign deals that extend them without being on the FA market tend to take smaller contracts. Look at pretty much every player who signs an extension with a team before going out. For whatever reasons (desire to lock up a deal at that moment, hometown discount, etc.) players are often willing to forego the benefit of being competed for on the market in order to stay with their current team. Do you really think Buehrle wouldn't have gotten a better deal than what he took? Or Zambrano? Or Wells? Or Ichiro? They took smaller contracts than what the true open market price for them would have been.

I would venture to guess that over the last few years the market for players who have actually hit the open FA market has moved steadily upward. Mostly because every year this same conversation happens, where we blame certain teams for "overpaying" and the amount they "overpaid" generally goes up every year.

fquaye149
12-12-2007, 12:08 PM
Here's the thing though. Players who sign deals that extend them without being on the FA market tend to take smaller contracts. Look at pretty much every player who signs an extension with a team before going out. For whatever reasons (desire to lock up a deal at that moment, hometown discount, etc.) players are often willing to forego the benefit of being competed for on the market in order to stay with their current team. Do you really think Buehrle wouldn't have gotten a better deal than what he took? Or Zambrano? Or Wells? Or Ichiro? They took smaller contracts than what the true open market price for them would have been.

I would venture to guess that over the last few years the market for players who have actually hit the open FA market has moved steadily upward. Mostly because every year this same conversation happens, where we blame certain teams for "overpaying" and the amount they "overpaid" generally goes up every year.

I absolutely agree that Wells signed below market value. But would he have really gotten more than 20 million on the open market?

And for Wells, a perennial GG and AS, to be making just 2 m. per more than HUNTER!!!!!! screams that Torii Hunter is being grossly overpaid

spiffie
12-12-2007, 12:21 PM
I absolutely agree that Wells signed below market value. But would he have really gotten more than 20 million on the open market?

And for Wells, a perennial GG and AS, to be making just 2 m. per more than HUNTER!!!!!! screams that Torii Hunter is being grossly overpaid
See, to me it screams Wells is being underpaid. Wells also hadn't reached the point where he could hit the FA market. Wells took a smaller contract, when he had barely over 5 years of service time in, and locked up $126 million. The situations are different, and can't truly be compared. But yes, I think Vernon Wells probably gets, if not a bigger yearly average, certainly a longer-term deal than Hunter if he was a FA this offseason. Especialy if he was the Vernon Wells of 2006 on the market. This year wasn't that impressive, so he's probably not unhappy at signing that giant deal.

cbrownson13
12-12-2007, 12:32 PM
I'm a little confused at some of the viewpoints on this board.

I don't understand this theory that the White Sox HAVE to rebuild and that it would have been/will be wrong to overpay for players such as Hunter, Jones, Rowand, etc.

If that's what it takes to compete, then the White Sox HAVE to do it.

Some people say we need to work on building our farm system and not paying high price (that other contenders are willing and will pay) for the top free agents. But the Sox need to do this in order to compete.

Some have the theory that we rebuild a team to compete in 2009, '10, and beyond. Do you think that these other teams (Cleveland, Detroit, Anaheim, NY, and Boston) are not going to just reload in the future? They are. Detroit has come out and said that payroll is not an issue. They are going to field the best team possible, regardless of money.

This building from the farm system just isn't going to work going forward in the American League where the other contending teams are always willing to spend more. Yes, it's worked with the Marlins and Rockies in recent years. But that's in the National League, where you can get away with that.

And how do we exactly go about building from our farm system? We don't have a large number of good, young talent now. How is that going to be different in a year or two? Are the Sox all of a sudden going to draft these young players that will be studs in 2 years time? I doubt it. Unless we are trading our big name players that actually have value (Buehrle, Konerko, Dye -- which most seem reluctant to do) for young studs, then where are we getting these players that will make us a contender in a few years? They don't exist in our farm system right now and it is unreasonable to believe that they will in only two, three years.

We have seen time and time again that most of these blue chip prospects in the minors are becoming stepping stones to acquiring big name players. (see: Detroit) So Detroit traded off some big prospects to land Willis and Cabrera and some people's logic on here is that Detroit will be handcuffed in a few years? Guess what? Their revenue that they are going to have in a few years from being a contending team will be enough for them to just reload and they will be able to continue to sign big name players.

So the Sox have two options here:
A) Trade off most of the big name players for young studs.
B) Start realizing that spending money will result in making money and that the only way to compete in the AL going forward is to start spending some money on big name free agents.

Acquisitions like Cabrera, Linebrink, and Quentin are nice little pieces of the puzzle, but unlike in 2005, these "nice players" are not going to contend with the likes of Detroit, Cleveland, Anaheim, Boston, and New York. Those teams just have too much star power and there's no reason to believe that it will change in the foreseeable future.

If it were only one or two teams (like in '05) that are shelling out big bucks, than the White Sox could get away with trying to play these young guys and contend. But its not one or two teams, its four or five now. The face of the AL is changing and the White Sox will have to change with it, or suck. But we cannot compete in this division in the next few years by going young. Going young would take a 4-5 year transition and I'm not sure how many people are willing to see that.

I'm not calling the season dead in December and I'm not trying to contribute to this "sky is falling" trend. But something does need to be done. And if it is completely rebuilding, we as fans need to realize that it will not be a short transition to success, but a long one.

fquaye149
12-12-2007, 01:32 PM
See, to me it screams Wells is being underpaid. Wells also hadn't reached the point where he could hit the FA market. Wells took a smaller contract, when he had barely over 5 years of service time in, and locked up $126 million. The situations are different, and can't truly be compared. But yes, I think Vernon Wells probably gets, if not a bigger yearly average, certainly a longer-term deal than Hunter if he was a FA this offseason. Especialy if he was the Vernon Wells of 2006 on the market. This year wasn't that impressive, so he's probably not unhappy at signing that giant deal.

But that's you shaping the argument to your standards.

Two FA's this year sign exhorbitantly high contracts for CF's (even compared to contracts of 1-3 years ago) for their skill level. However, as recently as last year, Wells was had relatively cheaply, and would likely, even on the market, not have commanded a TON more. Even Gary Matthews's and Juan Pierre's contracts were not this out of control.

That seems to me that this year's FA market is higher than usual but THE market is not. That is to say, in 2008's offseason, a CF of the caliber of Hunter might be had for 16 million...which would suggest that the Angels grossly overpaid

DumpJerry
12-12-2007, 01:33 PM
why does it seem all the big name people ae going to all our division rivals while we are stuck here with our thumb up our asses?
I guess you have not followed the White Sox much this offseason. Either that or you thought you were posting on a Twins' board.

WhiteSox5187
12-12-2007, 01:50 PM
I'm a little confused at some of the viewpoints on this board.

I don't understand this theory that the White Sox HAVE to rebuild and that it would have been/will be wrong to overpay for players such as Hunter, Jones, Rowand, etc.

If that's what it takes to compete, then the White Sox HAVE to do it.

Some people say we need to work on building our farm system and not paying high price (that other contenders are willing and will pay) for the top free agents. But the Sox need to do this in order to compete.

Some have the theory that we rebuild a team to compete in 2009, '10, and beyond. Do you think that these other teams (Cleveland, Detroit, Anaheim, NY, and Boston) are not going to just reload in the future? They are. Detroit has come out and said that payroll is not an issue. They are going to field the best team possible, regardless of money.

This building from the farm system just isn't going to work going forward in the American League where the other contending teams are always willing to spend more. Yes, it's worked with the Marlins and Rockies in recent years. But that's in the National League, where you can get away with that.

And how do we exactly go about building from our farm system? We don't have a large number of good, young talent now. How is that going to be different in a year or two? Are the Sox all of a sudden going to draft these young players that will be studs in 2 years time? I doubt it. Unless we are trading our big name players that actually have value (Buehrle, Konerko, Dye -- which most seem reluctant to do) for young studs, then where are we getting these players that will make us a contender in a few years? They don't exist in our farm system right now and it is unreasonable to believe that they will in only two, three years.

We have seen time and time again that most of these blue chip prospects in the minors are becoming stepping stones to acquiring big name players. (see: Detroit) So Detroit traded off some big prospects to land Willis and Cabrera and some people's logic on here is that Detroit will be handcuffed in a few years? Guess what? Their revenue that they are going to have in a few years from being a contending team will be enough for them to just reload and they will be able to continue to sign big name players.

So the Sox have two options here:
A) Trade off most of the big name players for young studs.
B) Start realizing that spending money will result in making money and that the only way to compete in the AL going forward is to start spending some money on big name free agents.

Acquisitions like Cabrera, Linebrink, and Quentin are nice little pieces of the puzzle, but unlike in 2005, these "nice players" are not going to contend with the likes of Detroit, Cleveland, Anaheim, Boston, and New York. Those teams just have too much star power and there's no reason to believe that it will change in the foreseeable future.

If it were only one or two teams (like in '05) that are shelling out big bucks, than the White Sox could get away with trying to play these young guys and contend. But its not one or two teams, its four or five now. The face of the AL is changing and the White Sox will have to change with it, or suck. But we cannot compete in this division in the next few years by going young. Going young would take a 4-5 year transition and I'm not sure how many people are willing to see that.

I'm not calling the season dead in December and I'm not trying to contribute to this "sky is falling" trend. But something does need to be done. And if it is completely rebuilding, we as fans need to realize that it will not be a short transition to success, but a long one.
That's one of the best posts I've read here, but since it doesn't fall for one extreme (Kenny is an idiot who should be fired) or the other (Kenny is God's gift to GMs) it will not fly here.

fquaye149
12-12-2007, 01:59 PM
I'm a little confused at some of the viewpoints on this board.

I don't understand this theory that the White Sox HAVE to rebuild and that it would have been/will be wrong to overpay for players such as Hunter, Jones, Rowand, etc.

If that's what it takes to compete, then the White Sox HAVE to do it.

Some people say we need to work on building our farm system and not paying high price (that other contenders are willing and will pay) for the top free agents. But the Sox need to do this in order to compete.

Some have the theory that we rebuild a team to compete in 2009, '10, and beyond. Do you think that these other teams (Cleveland, Detroit, Anaheim, NY, and Boston) are not going to just reload in the future? They are. Detroit has come out and said that payroll is not an issue. They are going to field the best team possible, regardless of money.

This building from the farm system just isn't going to work going forward in the American League where the other contending teams are always willing to spend more. Yes, it's worked with the Marlins and Rockies in recent years. But that's in the National League, where you can get away with that.

And how do we exactly go about building from our farm system? We don't have a large number of good, young talent now. How is that going to be different in a year or two? Are the Sox all of a sudden going to draft these young players that will be studs in 2 years time? I doubt it. Unless we are trading our big name players that actually have value (Buehrle, Konerko, Dye -- which most seem reluctant to do) for young studs, then where are we getting these players that will make us a contender in a few years? They don't exist in our farm system right now and it is unreasonable to believe that they will in only two, three years.

We have seen time and time again that most of these blue chip prospects in the minors are becoming stepping stones to acquiring big name players. (see: Detroit) So Detroit traded off some big prospects to land Willis and Cabrera and some people's logic on here is that Detroit will be handcuffed in a few years? Guess what? Their revenue that they are going to have in a few years from being a contending team will be enough for them to just reload and they will be able to continue to sign big name players.

So the Sox have two options here:
A) Trade off most of the big name players for young studs.
B) Start realizing that spending money will result in making money and that the only way to compete in the AL going forward is to start spending some money on big name free agents.

Acquisitions like Cabrera, Linebrink, and Quentin are nice little pieces of the puzzle, but unlike in 2005, these "nice players" are not going to contend with the likes of Detroit, Cleveland, Anaheim, Boston, and New York. Those teams just have too much star power and there's no reason to believe that it will change in the foreseeable future.

If it were only one or two teams (like in '05) that are shelling out big bucks, than the White Sox could get away with trying to play these young guys and contend. But its not one or two teams, its four or five now. The face of the AL is changing and the White Sox will have to change with it, or suck. But we cannot compete in this division in the next few years by going young. Going young would take a 4-5 year transition and I'm not sure how many people are willing to see that.

I'm not calling the season dead in December and I'm not trying to contribute to this "sky is falling" trend. But something does need to be done. And if it is completely rebuilding, we as fans need to realize that it will not be a short transition to success, but a long one.

Ok. This is generally a good post, but I'd counter by saying that building for 2009 (the course of action I'd advocate) doesn't mean selling off talent for prospects. Or at least, it doesn't have to. What it could mean (and what I think it SHOULD MEAN) is evaluating the core group and seeing whose trade value will go up (Konerko? Contreras) enough that we can get some serious MLB-ready talent for 2009 for them by midseason. It also means giving the kids some time to play this year (Fields, Richar, Owens, Quentin, and YES, Anderson if we don't land Rowand, Danks, Floyd, MacDougal and Gio) to give us a very good idea of where our serious needs are FOR the 2008 offseason.

This is why, imo, it's important that the organization admits that 08 is likely a "lost" season...if "lost" season is strictly defined by "not making the playoffs." I think it is, at this point, a foregone conclusion we won't be in any position to contend for a playoff spot going into this season. If Kenny, and particularly Ozzie, go into the 2008 season with a "win-now" mentality, it will seriously set us back in 2009 and beyond...and that's what I would caution against. I'm by no means advocating trading all our veterans for prospects--I think that's a very sketchy move--but I would be open to trading one or two for good young players like Kemp or Willits who are MLB ready. I'm not convinced Kemp or Willits are available or that we have the pieces to acquire them, but those are the kind of pieces we should be looking to acquire at this point in time.

Contention in 2009 is a very real possibility--we have enough young arms and talented position players to field a competitive team...just not THIS year