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View Full Version : We can't do it like the Yankees or Marlins... how can we do it???


WhiteSoxFan84
12-12-2007, 03:36 AM
If we can't buy a championship like the Red Sox (they also have a great farm system), Yankees, Angels, Mets, etc. and if we can't build a championship calibur team through the development of prospects like the Marlins, how the hell can we win? Just hope to get lucky once every 88 years??

Or do we just need a new owner... and a new general manager... and a new minor league director... and a new ahhhh hell........

Would the best possible route now be to trade Thome, Konerko, Dye, Buehrle, Crede, Vazquez, Contreras, Cabrera, and Pierzynski for as many QUALITY prospects as possible? I know this would mean 2 or even 3 years of completely sucking, but I'd rather go through those 2-3 years and then have a consistently successful team rather than keep hoping free agents give us "hometown" discounts or that we get lucky with a trade.

MUsoxfan
12-12-2007, 03:47 AM
I've never seen such meltdown over nothing. It's December ****ing 12th. Holy crap. This may be one of the most insane posts I've ever read on this board....and may I say there's a ton of competition for that prize

pmck003
12-12-2007, 03:52 AM
No. Thats a guarantee of 2-3 years of sucking, and a possibility of not sucking after that period. I wouldn't be adverse to the Sox dropping some salary, but maybe during the season when you could get better value. Better value could come in the form of a player who has proven that he is ready to contribute in mlb from the first half of the season

WhiteSoxFan84
12-12-2007, 04:17 AM
I've never seen such meltdown over nothing.

Nothing might've been missing out on Torii Hunter.
Nothing might've even been thinking you had Miguel Cabrera only to see him AND Dontrelle Willis go to your division rival.
Nothing might've been losing the 2008 division title in December 2007.
Nothing might've been losing out on Fukudome.
Nothing might've been Rowand/Sox being so far apart on a deal.
Nothing might've been STILL not having an adequate leadoff man, LFer, CFer, 2B, 4th starter, 5th starter, RP # 2, RP # 3, RP # 4, or RP # 5.

But when you add allllllll that up, MU my friend, you have SOMETHING.

MUsoxfan
12-12-2007, 04:29 AM
Nothing might've been missing out on Torii Hunter.
Nothing might've even been thinking you had Miguel Cabrera only to see him AND Dontrelle Willis go to your division rival.
Nothing might've been losing the 2008 division title in December 2007.
Nothing might've been losing out on Fukudome.
Nothing might've been Rowand/Sox being so far apart on a deal.
Nothing might've been STILL not having an adequate leadoff man, LFer, CFer, 2B, 4th starter, 5th starter, RP # 2, RP # 3, RP # 4, or RP # 5.

But when you add allllllll that up, MU my friend, you have SOMETHING.


I don't view Hunter as a big miss. The Angels wanted him MUCH more than any other team in baseball I don't see him contributing $90m worth of play.


Losing out on Cabrera/Willis sucks, but the Sox didn't have the goods to match what Detroit was willing to offer.

NOTHING has been lost yet. Again, it's December ****ing 12th. It's not even the baseball calendar year yet. But hey, why even field a team...

Fukudome is an unproven MLB commodity. To me, he's no different than a AAA prospect.

The Sox can still get Rowand, but even if that doesn't happen it doesn't mean that Owens can't grow into his own as a player. At some point the Sox have to hope that the farm system can produce some talent.

What kind of leadoff men are out there? Owens may be the best option in that regard. Again, he's still very young.

There are some holes, I'll admit...but suggesting a giant firesale on December ****ing 12th to rebuild for 2010 is utterly ridiculous.

Over By There
12-12-2007, 09:16 AM
Gosh, I wish there was a model we could look to... perhaps even within our own franchise history... that would tell us how to win a World Series... but it's been so long...

You PPDC'ers need a serious reality check.

russ99
12-12-2007, 10:11 AM
And if you think we need RP 2, 3, 4 and 5 you're sadly mistaken.

Jenks is an elite closer
Linebrink is an elite set-up man
Thornton has and will excel in the 7th inning LH role. It's when he pitches in the 8th he's had trouble.
Logan is an above average LOOGY.

We need 2 righty guys. I'd like Kenny to get a crafty control-oriented vet for the 7th (trading MacDougal for other fixes) and open up competition for the long/middle guy to Russell, Wasserman, Aardsma, and whoever else is up for the task.

Dolanski
12-12-2007, 10:37 AM
Nothing might've been missing out on Torii Hunter.
Nothing might've even been thinking you had Miguel Cabrera only to see him AND Dontrelle Willis go to your division rival.
Nothing might've been losing the 2008 division title in December 2007.
Nothing might've been losing out on Fukudome.
Nothing might've been Rowand/Sox being so far apart on a deal.
Nothing might've been STILL not having an adequate leadoff man, LFer, CFer, 2B, 4th starter, 5th starter, RP # 2, RP # 3, RP # 4, or RP # 5.

But when you add allllllll that up, MU my friend, you have SOMETHING.

Its December. The season starts in March. Do everyone a favor and either jump off the ledge (not literally, go become a Cub fan or something) or stop writing stupid posts about how the sky is falling and this team is done.

Threads like this are a great example of how 2005 turned some fans into whiny crybabies. It almost makes me wish they didn't win that title...almost.

balke
12-12-2007, 10:44 AM
We won a championship more recently than the Marlins or Yankees. Check the newspaper sometime Sox fan.

spiffie
12-12-2007, 10:58 AM
Its December. The season starts in March. Do everyone a favor and either jump off the ledge (not literally, go become a Cub fan or something) or stop writing stupid posts about how the sky is falling and this team is done.

Threads like this are a great example of how 2005 turned some fans into whiny crybabies. It almost makes me wish they didn't win that title...almost.
The problem with the whole "It's only December" mantra that so many people around here spew anytime someone doesn't get out the hula skirts and coconut bras in preparation for next year's World Series is that we started the race for the 2008 pennant a lot farther back than some other teams. If we were coming off a good year, and had a lot of high-quality prospects coming in then you could say "it's only December." But that line only works if you didn't have much to improve upon.

The FA market has little to offer at this point beyond one above average when he's good OF. There is not a lot in tradeable commodoties on the farm. Yes, there is a lot of time between now and April. But that doesn't mean that the ability to make moves that could have the kind of impact needed to help this team overcome the 24 game gap from last year doesn't lessen with each move someone else makes.

Yes, anything can happen. KW could somehow fleece the Cards to trade us Pujols for Uribe. But the likelihood of there being a significant talent addition or additions gets smaller simply because only so many guys are truly available in any realistic scenario.

Now, maybe you're fine with that. If you subscribe to the opinion that everyone on our team is likely to return to their 2006 numbers next year, except for the pitchers who will return to their 2005 numbers, then you can say "it's only December" and feel comfortable with that. If you assume that ALL of the rookies/near-rookies (Richar, Quentin, Danks, Floyd, Owens, Fields) will significantly improve this year, then put the Yule Log on the tv and relax to the crackling sounds of the fire. Hell, even if you don't believe that you should still do that. Helps calm the nerves when thinking about a questionable rotation and significant questions with the lineup.

The Sox had a lot of ground to make up this offseason. So far they haven't really done that. They have gained some ground, but taken a step or two backwards as well. The additions of Cabrera and Quentin will be nice ones. The loss of Garland I fear will be felt more than people realize. On the whole I would have no problem saying I think we are a better team today than we were on the last day of the 2007 season. But I don't think we're nearly good enough to win the 95 or so games needed for a playoff berth. And at this point it is hard to see much out there in the realm of realistic chances that suggests there are players coming who will change that fact. I like Aaron Rowand, more than a lot of folks here do, but I know he is not the panacea that fixes this team. Hell, that guy doesn't exist. Maybe Jose Reyes would be that guy. Maybe Johan Santana. Maybe the two of them together. But otherwise it doesn't look very good. And the fact that there are three more months to look at this situation doesn't make me feel better.

The Yule Log however does make me feel better. Listen to that crackling and popping.

balke
12-12-2007, 11:02 AM
And if you think we need RP 2, 3, 4 and 5 you're sadly mistaken.

Jenks is an elite closer
Linebrink is an elite set-up man
Thornton has and will excel in the 7th inning LH role. It's when he pitches in the 8th he's had trouble.
Logan is an above average LOOGY.

We need 2 righty guys. I'd like Kenny to get a crafty control-oriented vet for the 7th (trading MacDougal for other fixes) and open up competition for the long/middle guy to Russell, Wasserman, Aardsma, and whoever else is up for the task.


I believe they are sticking with Macdougal. That's the last thing I heard, and I agree with it. Sox POTENTIALLy could have a great bullpen. Bullpen's are a tricky thing obviously, but Macdougal had 2 great season's before last season. A lot of relievers have a bad season here or there.

If Linebrink and Macdougal are back to form, and Jenks keeps it up.... i really like the bullpen. Thornton was looking better at season's end, and I'm not against Logan at the backend with Wasserman.

kittle42
12-12-2007, 11:22 AM
NOTHING has been lost yet. Again, it's December ****ing 12th. It's not even the baseball calendar year yet. But hey, why even field a team...

I can understand the "the games haven't been played" argument that the positive folks always use, but c'mon, we might as well be the Royals if that's going to be our fallback every year. Make some ****ing moves and position yourself to be a strong team. Don't just hope for hope's sake.

russ99
12-12-2007, 11:24 AM
I believe they are sticking with Macdougal. That's the last thing I heard, and I agree with it. Sox POTENTIALLy could have a great bullpen. Bullpen's are a tricky thing obviously, but Macdougal had 2 great season's before last season. A lot of relievers have a bad season here or there.

If Linebrink and Macdougal are back to form, and Jenks keeps it up.... i really like the bullpen. Thornton was looking better at season's end, and I'm not against Logan at the backend with Wasserman.

Yeah, I heard that too, which makes me a bit nervous.

He'd be pretty good trade bait with his (relatively) inexpensive deal for the next two years, but I'm sure other teams are scared off by his collapse in the middle of the season.

Still, as you said relievers are up and down, and with Linebrink in place at setup, my trickle-down theory of why we needed a top setup guy may pay off with better results in less pressure situations for MacDougal.

I'd still like to see another inexpensive righty pick up in January to solidify things, or so we don't need to go the Prinz/Bukvich route again if a guy or two falters.

spiffie
12-12-2007, 11:26 AM
I can understand the "the games haven't been played" argument that the positive folks always use, but c'mon, we might as well be the Royals if that's going to be our fallback every year. Make some ****ing moves and position yourself to be a strong team. Don't just hope for hope's sake.
Hey, the Royals have just as good a shot as anyone. After all, it's only December!

kitekrazy
12-12-2007, 11:32 AM
I've never seen such meltdown over nothing. It's December ****ing 12th. Holy crap. This may be one of the most insane posts I've ever read on this board....and may I say there's a ton of competition for that prize

Yep. Where are those "This thread sucks", "This thread blows" pics.

raven1
12-12-2007, 11:48 AM
The "blow up the team & rebuild" panic is excessive. Although there are probably too many holes to realistically fill for next year, rebuilding is simply not an option for one simple reason - if the White Sox do not at least make their best effort to win next year, they will lose a big part of their fan base & have a hard time getting it back. A rebuilding program would likely result in the White Sox revenues dropping back to what they were in the late 90's after the strike, and as a result they would be unable to maintain even the current $90-100M payroll level. Without a minor league system to fall back on, they would be stuck as perennial small-market doormats like the Royals & Devil Rays.

RockyMtnSoxFan
12-12-2007, 11:49 AM
What bothers me about the Sox strategy, or Kenny's "Plan", is that they don't seem to commit to going one way or the other. It seems like we are back to the mediocrity that defined the early part of this decade. We always had teams that were close to being competitive, but there was always something lacking. Rather than going and making a really big splash and totally going for it, the Sox would bring in somebody who looked like a slight upgrade, as long as it wasn't a major commitment.

I think we need to commit to either being really good in the short term, or really bad in the short term with the hope that we can be good later on. The Indians were very successful in the late '90's, but entered a rebuilding phase in '02 (or thereabouts). The let Thome go to another team, started hording prospects, and saved money while they prepared. There was much talk about how they were going to be very good, and that proved true at the end of '05 and again in '07. Maybe the Sox need to do the same thing, rather than add slight upgrades to a team that is currently mediocre at best, and terrible at worst.

RockyMtnSoxFan
12-12-2007, 11:52 AM
The "blow up the team & rebuild" panic is excessive. Although there are probably too many holes to realistically fill for next year, rebuilding is simply not an option for one simple reason - if the White Sox do not at least make their best effort to win next year, they will lose a big part of their fan base & have a hard time getting it back. A rebuilding program would likely result in the White Sox revenues dropping back to what they were in the late 90's after the strike, and as a result they would be unable to maintain even the current $90-100M payroll level. Without a minor league system to fall back on, they would be stuck as perennial small-market doormats like the Royals & Devil Rays.

But given the current state of the team, it is going to take probably another $20-30 M to get to the level of Cleveland and Detroit. Personally, I'd rather see them blow it up and get as many prospects in trades as possible, rather than run out a crappy to average product every year for a payroll that ranks in the top 10.

raven1
12-12-2007, 11:54 AM
What bothers me about the Sox strategy, or Kenny's "Plan", is that they don't seem to commit to going one way or the other. It seems like we are back to the mediocrity that defined the early part of this decade. We always had teams that were close to being competitive, but there was always something lacking. Rather than going and making a really big splash and totally going for it, the Sox would bring in somebody who looked like a slight upgrade, as long as it wasn't a major commitment.

I think we need to commit to either being really good in the short term, or really bad in the short term with the hope that we can be good later on. The Indians were very successful in the late '90's, but entered a rebuilding phase in '02 (or thereabouts). The let Thome go to another team, started hording prospects, and saved money while they prepared. There was much talk about how they were going to be very good, and that proved true at the end of '05 and again in '07. Maybe the Sox need to do the same thing, rather than add slight upgrades to a team that is currently mediocre at best, and terrible at worst.

We may indeed be stuck in the middle with mediocrity, but taking our shot with a "one year at a time" view is probably the best that Kenny can do. The dilemma is that any overt rebuilding plan would jeopardize the future revenues necessary to build a competitive team.

spiffie
12-12-2007, 11:56 AM
We may indeed be stuck in the middle with mediocrity, but taking our shot with a "one year at a time" view is probably the best that Kenny can do. The dilemma is that any overt rebuilding plan would jeopardize the future revenues necessary to build a competitive team.
It would do no such thing. The fanbase survived Jerry Reinsdorf leading a strike that ended a season where his team was the favorites to win the World Series.

If the Sox win, fans come out. Yes, it might take a little longer for them to start, but 2005 made a change. People saw the park for the first time in a decade. They saw that its a nice place for a game. If the Sox put a winner on the field, even if bad years precede it, the park will fill again.

raven1
12-12-2007, 12:01 PM
It would do no such thing. The fanbase survived Jerry Reinsdorf leading a strike that ended a season where his team was the favorites to win the World Series.

If the Sox win, fans come out. Yes, it might take a little longer for them to start, but 2005 made a change. People saw the park for the first time in a decade. They saw that its a nice place for a game. If the Sox put a winner on the field, even if bad years precede it, the park will fill again.

It's still a "chicken & egg" problem. Fans will come out if you have a winner, but with a couple bad years in a road there won't be enough money to put together the contending team that will bring the fans back to the park.

kjhanson
12-12-2007, 12:02 PM
I rarely read the Clubhouse in the off-season because it's the same thing every year. But truth be told, we haven't exactly sat around this off-season. Coming into this off-season everyone said we needed to acquire an OF, a RP and needed an upgrade at Shortstop.

Well, we traded for a ML-ready Outfielder by trading away a minor leaguer who was about three years away. The reliever that we acquired has a career ERA+ of 1.27. Eric Gagne's ERA+? It is 1.24. Finally, we upgraded at SS and now have a 2-hole hitter that has never struck out more than 64 times in his career and has stolen bases with an 81% success rate in his career.

Despite the additions we've made, people are still asking for more. Wanting an other 2B is just absurd. We knew going into the offseason that Danny Richar would be our starting 2B to open the year. I understand having high expectations but reality comes into play as well. It's like asking for a car for Christmas even though the person buying your gift is only going to spend $500 and you KNOW that. We all KNEW 2B wouldn't be upgraded, so it's not worth complaining about. Secondly, despite acquiring an OF (whom I think is going to be pretty darn good), a lot of people still want Jerry Owens gone. It makes sense, because the CFs available were pretty good this year. But I don't think you can overlook the value of adding Cabrera to lineup if Owens is leading off. Cabrera provides more protection than Owens has had, and like I said earlier, he rarely strikes out, and there's nothing better than putting the ball in play when you have speed on the basepaths. Finally, I would still like to add another arm to the bullpen, but most relievers should be developed in the organization. Paying $5mm/year for a guy who retires 210 batters/year just isn't worth it, especially with the inconsistency of even "proven" relievers.

All in all, I wouldn't consider it a successful offseason, but I think we are better than we were 2 months ago. If I had said that we would add one of the top OF prospects in all of baseball, one of the 5 best setup men in the game, and a SS who hit .300 with 80 RBIs last year, everyone would have been thrilled a couple months ago. As it stands now, I think the biggest issue is the overall big-name player movement/musings that we've seen. A-Rod, Andruw Jones and Torii Hunter (who won't be worth $10mm next year), just to name a few. Everytime one of these names is mentioned somebody gets their hopes up in anticipation of signing that guy. When we don't sign the guy, who we had 0% chance of getting anyways, everyone cries like a 4 year-old. I've seen projected lineups with Fukudome, Arod, Thome, Konerko, A. Jones and Jermaine hitting all in a row. And then as each of those players was secured, I've seen more and more complaining.

We still have a better team than we ended the season with, which is all you can ask for at this point. I'd love to get greedy and sign everyone, but it's still a process and we still have 29 competitors, of which at least 20 of them have done a lot less than we have.

raven1
12-12-2007, 12:08 PM
We still have a better team than we ended the season with, which is all you can ask for at this point. I'd love to get greedy and sign everyone, but it's still a process and we still have 29 competitors, of which at least 20 of them have done a lot less than we have.

I agree that as it stands now the Sox have made some key upgrades and should be better next year than last. Unfortunately, just being better than last year is probably not good enough to win the AL Central, we need to compare the team to the rest of the division (particularly Detroit and Cleveland). We're not as far off as some panicked people say we are, but there are still some areas (leadoff hitter) where we still don't stack up to the immediate competition.

kjhanson
12-12-2007, 12:21 PM
I agree that as it stands now the Sox have made some key upgrades and should be better next year than last. Unfortunately, just being better than last year is probably not good enough to win the AL Central, we need to compare the team to the rest of the division (particularly Detroit and Cleveland). We're not as far off as some panicked people say we are, but there are still some areas (leadoff hitter) where we still don't stack up to the immediate competition.

I know the leadoff hitter is probably the most heavily debated topic and the most desired upgrade. I'm in the very small minority here, because I believe that J.O. is going to have one helluva year. That's where the majority of my confidence and optimism comes from. Of course, if I didn't feel that way about him, I might start getting worried too. But for now I believe that we can honestly compete, as long as we have consistency from our bullpen.

chaerulez
12-12-2007, 12:27 PM
If we can't buy a championship like the Red Sox (they also have a great farm system), Yankees, Angels, Mets, etc. and if we can't build a championship calibur team through the development of prospects like the Marlins, how the hell can we win? Just hope to get lucky once every 88 years??

Or do we just need a new owner... and a new general manager... and a new minor league director... and a new ahhhh hell........

Would the best possible route now be to trade Thome, Konerko, Dye, Buehrle, Crede, Vazquez, Contreras, Cabrera, and Pierzynski for as many QUALITY prospects as possible? I know this would mean 2 or even 3 years of completely sucking, but I'd rather go through those 2-3 years and then have a consistently successful team rather than keep hoping free agents give us "hometown" discounts or that we get lucky with a trade.

The Mets haven't won since 1986. They have bought any such championship. The Angels, yes they won it all in 2002 but that was with a lot of homegrown talent. Since they've been spending a lot, they haven't won a World Series yet either. We just need to develop a better farm system. Despite perception, many teams don't buy a championship. The Red Sox had a lot of good young talent and made key trades. Their high priced free agents (Dice-K, Lugo, and JD Drew) weren't huge contributors. Ortiz they signed initally to a very cheap deal. That was just smart decision making. Schilling and Beckett they got through trades, because they had a good farm system to make these deals. Papelbon, Ellsbury, Pedoria, and Lester were their own homegrown talent.

The only teams in my opinion to have really bought a World Series were the 2001 Diamondbacks and maybe the 1997 Marlins. When the Yankees were winning World Series, they had a team of mostly homegrown players and a couple key free agent or trade acqusitions that put them over the top. Going out and overpaying for free agents is reckless. Look how that's worked out of the Yankees in this era.

kjhanson
12-12-2007, 12:41 PM
The Mets haven't won since 1986. They have bought any such championship. The Angels, yes they won it all in 2002 but that was with a lot of homegrown talent. Since they've been spending a lot, they haven't won a World Series yet either. We just need to develop a better farm system. Despite perception, many teams don't buy a championship. The Red Sox had a lot of good young talent and made key trades. Their high priced free agents (Dice-K, Lugo, and JD Drew) weren't huge contributors. Ortiz they signed initally to a very cheap deal. That was just smart decision making. Schilling and Beckett they got through trades, because they had a good farm system to make these deals. Papelbon, Ellsbury, Pedoria, and Lester were their own homegrown talent.

The only teams in my opinion to have really bought a World Series were the 2001 Diamondbacks and maybe the 1997 Marlins. When the Yankees were winning World Series, they had a team of mostly homegrown players and a couple key free agent or trade acqusitions that put them over the top. Going out and overpaying for free agents is reckless. Look how that's worked out of the Yankees in this era.

Well said here. Growing a consistent talent base, and then hyping your prospects like crazy is an essential part of wise baseball general managing. It's not always about who you get to the majors, a lot of it comes down to developing talent that is attractive to other teams.

jabrch
12-12-2007, 01:56 PM
how the hell can we win?

The same way we did 3 years ago

spiffie
12-12-2007, 02:00 PM
The same way we did 3 years ago
Exactly. Which is why I am so unhappy at the lack of Journey the last 2 seasons. We won with Journey, and we would win again with Journey!

mcfish
12-12-2007, 02:05 PM
Exactly. Which is why I am so unhappy at the lack of Journey the last 2 seasons. We won with Journey, and we would win again with Journey!Is it just Journey, or does it have to be "Don't Stop Believin'?" Could we possibly win with "Wheel in the Sky?"

asindc
12-12-2007, 03:16 PM
Is it just Journey, or does it have to be "Don't Stop Believin'?" Could we possibly win with "Wheel in the Sky?"

How about "After The Fall?":cool:

spiffie
12-12-2007, 03:21 PM
Is it just Journey, or does it have to be "Don't Stop Believin'?" Could we possibly win with "Wheel in the Sky?"
I suspect any Journey would work, but I see no reason to tinker with success.

SoxSpeed22
12-12-2007, 03:25 PM
And, the apocalypse has not happened yet.
Let's not bother showing up for 2008, let's just give the World Series to Detroit. See you in 2009.

Mohoney
12-19-2007, 06:40 AM
When the Yankees were winning World Series, they had a team of mostly homegrown players and a couple key free agent or trade acqusitions that put them over the top. Going out and overpaying for free agents is reckless. Look how that's worked out of the Yankees in this era.

I can't help but think that this argument is flawed. The Yankees have been in the playoffs every year since 1995. Obviously they're doing something right.

Frater Perdurabo
12-19-2007, 07:07 AM
We need 2 righty guys. I'd like Kenny to get a crafty control-oriented vet for the 7th (trading MacDougal for other fixes) and open up competition for the long/middle guy to Russell, Wasserman, Aardsma, and whoever else is up for the task.

I would be willing to give MacDougal another shot.

I also would put Haeger in as the #5 starter (signing Olivo to be the backup catcher and to catch Haeger) and would let Floyd and Broadway battle for the long relief spot.

guillen4life13
12-19-2007, 07:55 AM
I think it's interesting that the eternal optimists completely ignored spiffie's post, which contains the most logic of any in this thread.

I don't think this offseason has been successful. The Sox traded a relatively young starting pitcher who won 18 games twice prior to 2007, playing in one of the most challenging parks for pitchers because he was in his contract year, for a shortstop who is in his contract year. They have not signed him long term yet--will Cabrera actually want a long term deal here considering the current state of the Sox? Who knows? But until he does, that trade is a loss for the Sox--you lose a reliable innings eating pitcher. Cabrera is a damn good shortstop and offensive presence, but until he signs a deal, he is not worth more than Garland to the White Sox.

Linebrink was a good move (though I think perhaps a little too much money), but it still leaves you with a pen of:

Logan
MacDougal
Wasserman
Thornton
Linebrink
Jenks

The rotation is now:

Buehrle
Vazquez
Contreras
Danks
Floyd

So now for those dreaded "what ifs":

-What if Vazquez reverts to his career norms? He's only slightly better than Garland and last year was by far his best since '01.
-What if Contreras continues to pitch like he has for the last one and a half seasons?
-Danks and Floyd are both young and can't be expected to contribute more than 200 IP (and that, to me is verrry optimistic), and I would be overjoyed if both of them put up ERA's in the 4.50 range. What if they don't? I do expect significant improvements from both of them though.
-What if MacDougal and Logan bust again?

Yeah, yeah, I know it's December, but this team doesn't seem like it has too many valuable and expendable trading chips and the free agent market for the Sox needs is fast depleting. Crede's health is unproven and Uribe is a second tier shortstop, so they won't likely bring back too much talent. Considering how dry the farm is, they can't afford to trade prospects away. As far as position players (as it stands now), Quentin has not shown sustained success in the majors even though his minor league numbers were so stellar (remember Jeremy Reed?). Richar is also young and unproven. Ditto Owens, though both showed some good things this past season.

And for goodness sakes, don't just say "Well I'm sure you were preaching dark clouds in December 2004." Yeah, I was, but not as much as I am now. In 2004, the Sox were four games above .500. In 2007, the Sox were 18 games below .500. In 2005, the Twins were expected to win the division with the Indians coming in second, the White Sox in third. Neither those Twins or Indians were anywhere close to as good as the 2008 Tigers and Indians are projected to be.

jabrch
12-19-2007, 10:43 AM
I can't help but think that this argument is flawed. The Yankees have been in the playoffs every year since 1995. Obviously they're doing something right.

Sure - for a while, they had the best farm system in baseball. Once those players started hitting FA, they had the most money of any team in baseball to retain the ones they wanted to keep (Jeter, Rivera, Bernie, Posada, etc.) and they had even more money to go out and get other ones they wanted (A-Rod, Giambi, Clemens, Mussina, etc.).

Yes - The Yanks do it right. Yes - they win. But they win because they can do it with $$$$. Let's not confuse the Yanks with the Twins or the Athletics.

WhiteSox5187
12-19-2007, 11:44 AM
I think it's interesting that the eternal optimists completely ignored spiffie's post, which contains the most logic of any in this thread.

I don't think this offseason has been successful. The Sox traded a relatively young starting pitcher who won 18 games twice prior to 2007, playing in one of the most challenging parks for pitchers because he was in his contract year, for a shortstop who is in his contract year. They have not signed him long term yet--will Cabrera actually want a long term deal here considering the current state of the Sox? Who knows? But until he does, that trade is a loss for the Sox--you lose a reliable innings eating pitcher. Cabrera is a damn good shortstop and offensive presence, but until he signs a deal, he is not worth more than Garland to the White Sox.

Linebrink was a good move (though I think perhaps a little too much money), but it still leaves you with a pen of:

Logan
MacDougal
Wasserman
Thornton
Linebrink
Jenks

The rotation is now:

Buehrle
Vazquez
Contreras
Danks
Floyd

So now for those dreaded "what ifs":

-What if Vazquez reverts to his career norms? He's only slightly better than Garland and last year was by far his best since '01.
-What if Contreras continues to pitch like he has for the last one and a half seasons?
-Danks and Floyd are both young and can't be expected to contribute more than 200 IP (and that, to me is verrry optimistic), and I would be overjoyed if both of them put up ERA's in the 4.50 range. What if they don't? I do expect significant improvements from both of them though.
-What if MacDougal and Logan bust again?

Yeah, yeah, I know it's December, but this team doesn't seem like it has too many valuable and expendable trading chips and the free agent market for the Sox needs is fast depleting. Crede's health is unproven and Uribe is a second tier shortstop, so they won't likely bring back too much talent. Considering how dry the farm is, they can't afford to trade prospects away. As far as position players (as it stands now), Quentin has not shown sustained success in the majors even though his minor league numbers were so stellar (remember Jeremy Reed?). Richar is also young and unproven. Ditto Owens, though both showed some good things this past season.

And for goodness sakes, don't just say "Well I'm sure you were preaching dark clouds in December 2004." Yeah, I was, but not as much as I am now. In 2004, the Sox were four games above .500. In 2007, the Sox were 18 games below .500. In 2005, the Twins were expected to win the division with the Indians coming in second, the White Sox in third. Neither those Twins or Indians were anywhere close to as good as the 2008 Tigers and Indians are projected to be.
That's a really good post...there are a lot of what ifs on this team and they will be answered throughout the season. I don't think anyone who says "The Sox will be lucky to finish in third place" is being a "Pants pissing dark cloud." I HATE the reaction that people around here have if you criticize Kenny.

The thing about all those what ifs is that they can easily turn the other way too. What if Javy keeps pitching like he did in '07? With more run support is 15+ wins out of the question? Especially with a stronger bullpen? I don't think so. Buerhle could have won twenty with more offense and a better bullpen. What if Owens keeps playing like he did in September? What if Danks pitches like he did in the first half the whole year? Is twelve wins out of the question? If Floyd pitches like he did in September?

I really think the biggest problem with this team last year (obviously) was the bullpen. They blew 18 games last year. That's the difference between 90 wins and 90 losses. We HAVE improved in the bullpen. I'm not worried about the middle of the order, I am worried about the top and the bottom though and I think we've improved the top and really if we ahve Owens batting 9th (but I do not know where we could get a leadoff guy though) I think we've improved the bottom of the order. The rotation is scary simply because no one has a clue what it will be like, but I think we should know early on in the season. This is why they play the games. Really all I'm hoping for is exciting baseball on the southside, it would be nice to play games in August that MEAN something. Last year the offense was boring to watch and the team was PAINFUL to watch because everytime that bullpen came in you knew the games was over. No lead was safe. I hope that changes.

minutia
12-19-2007, 11:59 AM
[quote=WhiteSoxFan84;1745666]If we can't buy a championship like the Red Sox (they also have a great farm system),
I don't know that I entirely agree with this part of your statement. This years Red Sox team was just great. Even better than the 2004 team that ended their championship slump. Maybe I just don't know enough about the players on that team but they were just great this season. The Yankees threw a ton of money at a team that just did not work at all.

MisterB
12-19-2007, 12:05 PM
Sure - for a while, they had the best farm system in baseball. Once those players started hitting FA, they had the most money of any team in baseball to retain the ones they wanted to keep (Jeter, Rivera, Bernie, Posada, etc.) and they had even more money to go out and get other ones they wanted (A-Rod, Giambi, Clemens, Mussina, etc.).

Yes - The Yanks do it right. Yes - they win. But they win because they can do it with $$$$. Let's not confuse the Yanks with the Twins or the Athletics.

Good point. The benefit of "home grown talent" is only for their first 6 years - after that, they're a free agent acquisition.

Billy Ashley
12-19-2007, 01:06 PM
Good point. The benefit of "home grown talent" is only for their first 6 years - after that, they're a free agent acquisition.


All of Major League baseball is swimming in cash. Just about every owner is making a killing, I'm sure the White Sox and Twins could spend a competative amount compared to New York. Say a payroll of 150 million and tons of funds going into scouting and the minors. Works well for Boston.


Also, for every FA they yankees sign they also lose a draft pick in the first round.

JC456
12-19-2007, 01:42 PM
Its December. The season starts in March. Do everyone a favor and either jump off the ledge (not literally, go become a Cub fan or something) or stop writing stupid posts about how the sky is falling and this team is done.

Threads like this are a great example of how 2005 turned some fans into whiny crybabies. It almost makes me wish they didn't win that title...almost.

So a White Sox fan wants them to succeed and you're telling him to be a Cub fan? What only you can define how a fan expresses him or herself?

I think you need to relax and expect that there are always two sides to how to be a fan and showing passion and desire is good indicator the person is a fan of that team. Why post a message then?:happybday

JC456
12-19-2007, 01:48 PM
I have no problem if the Sox want to use Owens in Center. I thought at the end of last year he was starting to show some promise. In other words he was beginning to develop into a big leaguer. But if that is Kenny's desire than say so. That seems pretty simple.:gulp:

Mohoney
12-19-2007, 03:03 PM
Sure - for a while, they had the best farm system in baseball. Once those players started hitting FA, they had the most money of any team in baseball to retain the ones they wanted to keep (Jeter, Rivera, Bernie, Posada, etc.) and they had even more money to go out and get other ones they wanted (A-Rod, Giambi, Clemens, Mussina, etc.).

Yes - The Yanks do it right. Yes - they win. But they win because they can do it with $$$$. Let's not confuse the Yanks with the Twins or the Athletics.

This makes a lot of sense, much more sense than the "What have the Yankees done with this huge payroll?" argument.

It's just that ever since we won it all in 2005, some people have started talking like the Yankees are chopped liver. I can't get on that wavelength.

When you consider the fact that it took us 46 years to get to that 2005 World Series, I don't see how we're in ANY position to gloat about anything going on in the Bronx, where postseason play is an annual occurence.