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chisoxmike
12-11-2007, 10:11 AM
Chicago White Sox general manager Kenny Williams, eyes glazed and body weary, slumped in a chair, trying to make sense of this ruthless behavior besieging the American League.
"If I ever leave this job or if I ever get fired," Williams says, "I'm not coming back to the American League. I'm going to the National League. You've got a fighting chance over there."


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2007-12-10-alnl-baseball_N.htm

Madvora
12-11-2007, 10:25 AM
But the Tigers are just in a better position to compete with us now.

I understand what he's saying though. There has to be some kind of spending regulations in this league. It's way out of hand to have a team like Florida or KC in the same league as teams like Boston and NY.

btrain929
12-11-2007, 10:36 AM
That's a pretty solid article, so true.

I don't know how I feel about our GM making comments like that. Are THOSE his true feelings? Does he feel he doesn't have a shot here with us? :?:

Sockinchisox
12-11-2007, 10:40 AM
He may have been taken out of context, like he said it jokingly but they're passing it off as serious, like he was on the detroit competing with us comment.

At least I hope he was taken out of context, if he wasn't, the pressure must really be getting to him now.

balke
12-11-2007, 10:40 AM
Emergency lineup, spending done:

Owens
Cabrera
Thome
Konerko
Dye
Fields
AJ
Crede/Uribe
Uribe/Richar


Jenks
Linebrink
Macdougal
Wasserman
Thornton
Logan

Buehrle
Vasquez
Contreras
Danks
Floyd

Depth Chart: Sweeney, Anderson, Ozuna, Quinton, Masset, Gio Gonzalez, Andy Gonzalez, Toby Hall, Broadway

I like even that teams chances, because its baseball. Every year someone breaks out, someone gets hurt, someone gets better or worse. That team right there is good and can compete, it'll just take a lot of things to go right for the team.

I hope Crede is healthy and here, that's all I can really say. Get half a season of Fields in LF, and bring Quinton in at the halfway point, or just pray to god Anderson breaks out in Spring Training. There's still hope for the Sox to compete.

itsnotrequired
12-11-2007, 10:41 AM
He may have been taken out of context, like he said it jokingly but they're passing it off as serious, like he was on the detroit competing with us comment.

At least I hope he was taken out of context, if he wasn't, the pressure must really be getting to him now.

A quote taken out of context to spin a story? No way!

:happybday

russ99
12-11-2007, 10:44 AM
That's a pretty solid article, so true.

I don't know how I feel about our GM making comments like that. Are THOSE his true feelings? Does he feel he doesn't have a shot here with us? :?:

Part of this is the AL not being even close to a level playing field. I have no problem with Kenny's comments to the effect.

What I do have a problem with is Jerry's comments. If he's not willing to spend a $120M payroll, the the Sox have a lesser chance of competing with the Yankees, Red Sox and now the Angels and Tigers.

Spending better not be done... We're headed to the basement with that lineup/pitching staff. If you're counting on Anderson to be the savior, we're in for a very long season.
I wonder how Season/Ozzie ticket sales are going for 2008, and how that might affect what the Sox ultimately spend...

IlliniSox4Life
12-11-2007, 10:44 AM
I don't think this is Kenny being a baby. I think he is just saying how competitive the AL is. The description about him being slumped over in his chair is by the author, and I doubt that how he comes off is really how he looked.

SoxSpeed22
12-11-2007, 10:46 AM
Nobody said it was going to be easy, this is just the frustration talking.

Tekijawa
12-11-2007, 10:46 AM
I'm supprised that they didn't take that quote as meaning he wanted to work for the Cubs!

southsideirish71
12-11-2007, 10:55 AM
Emergency lineup, spending done:

Owens
Cabrera
Thome
Konerko
Dye
Fields
AJ
Crede/Uribe
Uribe/Richar


Jenks
Linebrink
Macdougal
Wasserman
Thornton
Logan

Buehrle
Vasquez
Contreras
Danks
Floyd

Depth Chart: Sweeney, Anderson, Ozuna, Quinton, Masset, Gio Gonzalez, Andy Gonzalez, Toby Hall, Broadway

I like even that teams chances, because its baseball. Every year someone breaks out, someone gets hurt, someone gets better or worse. That team right there is good and can compete, it'll just take a lot of things to go right for the team.

I hope Crede is healthy and here, that's all I can really say. Get half a season of Fields in LF, and bring Quinton in at the halfway point, or just pray to god Anderson breaks out in Spring Training. There's still hope for the Sox to compete.

If Crede starts the season as the 3rd baseman, Fields will start the season as the Knights 3rd baseman. They are not going to mix and match Fields in the field this year. They believe he is the long term answer, they will get him more opportunities to play the position he will have long term over sending him out to left for no reason.

wulfy
12-11-2007, 10:58 AM
Soxfest Q&A should be interesting this year ....

balke
12-11-2007, 11:00 AM
If Crede starts the season as the 3rd baseman, Fields will start the season as the Knights 3rd baseman. They are not going to mix and match Fields in the field this year. They believe he is the long term answer, they will get him more opportunities to play the position he will have long term over sending him out to left for no reason.

That's debatable. They don't have a lot of options in AAA for LF, and Josh already showed he can hit. If Crede is back and somewhat healthy, I think they'd bounce him between the two positions just to get his bat in the lineup if anything.

RowanDye
12-11-2007, 11:09 AM
Part of this is the AL not being even close to a level playing field. I have no problem with Kenny's comments to the effect.

What I do have a problem with is Jerry's comments. If he's not willing to spend a $120M payroll, the the Sox have a lesser chance of competing with the Yankees, Red Sox and now the Angels and Tigers.

Spending better not be done... We're headed to the basement with that lineup/pitching staff. If you're counting on Anderson to be the savior, we're in for a very long season.
I wonder how Season/Ozzie ticket sales are going for 2008, and how that might affect what the Sox ultimately spend...

Again, we don't know the context of these quotes, but I agree that what Jerry says is just complete ****ing garbage:

What's a team to do, particularly one that must face the Tigers 18 times a year? "That's easy," White Sox owner Jerry Reinsdorf says, laughing. "Move us to the National League. Put me in the NL Central right now."

Are we as fans supposed to have this attitude as well? Move our support and money to the NL central team, because they have a better chance to win? :angry:

voodoochile
12-11-2007, 11:12 AM
In the AL if you want to play in the WS, you have to play with NYY and Boston. That means you need big guns and lots of them.

In the NL if you want to play in the WS, you can start Josh Fogg.

So long as that trend continues, the NL's WS is their pennant.

Some great quotes in that article:

If the AL is like a heavyweight prizefight, the NL is like a preschool battle on the jungle gym at recess.

What's a team to do, particularly one that must face the Tigers 18 times a year? "That's easy," White Sox owner Jerry Reinsdorf says, laughing. "Move us to the National League. Put me in the NL Central right now."

This one was extra interesting. It definitely says it's time to add the DH to the NL...

"Their lineups are just so powerful with the designated hitter," Jennings says of AL teams. "They call it a DH. In our league, we call it a left fielder."

itsnotrequired
12-11-2007, 11:12 AM
Again, we don't know the context of these quotes, but I agree that what Jerry says is just complete ****ing garbage:

What's a team to do, particularly one that must face the Tigers 18 times a year? "That's easy," White Sox owner Jerry Reinsdorf says, laughing. "Move us to the National League. Put me in the NL Central right now."

Are we as fans supposed to have this attitude as well? Move our support and money to the NL central team, because they have a better chance to win? :angry:

So are you taking Reinsdorf's comments seriously?

Over By There
12-11-2007, 11:21 AM
That's debatable. They don't have a lot of options in AAA for LF, and Josh already showed he can hit. If Crede is back and somewhat healthy, I think they'd bounce him between the two positions just to get his bat in the lineup if anything.

I'll have to go look for it, but wasn't KW quoted shortly after the season as saying in no uncertain terms that Fields would not be roaming the outfield next year? I certainly hope I'm remembering that right. If Crede is at 3rd, Fields should be in Charlotte.

Hokiesox
12-11-2007, 11:21 AM
JR's comments are more indicative of the situation to me. That lineup posted above may only be 3rd or 4th best in the AL central, but it would win the NL central by late August. I'm not reading anything into these comments other than the AL is extremely overpowered and it's near impossible to compete, but we knew that already.

balke
12-11-2007, 11:23 AM
I'll have to go look for it, but wasn't KW quoted shortly after the season as saying in no uncertain terms that Fields would not be roaming the outfield next year? I certainly hope I'm remembering that right. If Crede is at 3rd, Fields should be in Charlotte.

Kenny also thought we were getting Hunter, and trading Crede, and moving Owens over to LF possibly. If they are even lucky enough to have Crede back, then the OF is Dye, Owens, Sweeney/Fields/Anderson. Fields is the only one that's shown he can hit MLB pitching for sure.

Nellie_Fox
12-11-2007, 11:26 AM
I'm supprised that they didn't take that quote as meaning he wanted to work for the Cubs!Well, they didn't have to say it, as it's just presumed. Everybody in baseball knows that the Cubs are the end of the rainbow!

voodoochile
12-11-2007, 11:31 AM
Well, they didn't have to say it, as it's just presumed. Everybody in baseball knows that the Cubs are the end of the rainbow!

The outhouse at the end of the rainbow to be exact. Puts a whole new twist on that pot o' gold concept...

southsideirish71
12-11-2007, 11:35 AM
Kenny also thought we were getting Hunter, and trading Crede, and moving Owens over to LF possibly. If they are even lucky enough to have Crede back, then the OF is Dye, Owens, Sweeney/Fields/Anderson. Fields is the only one that's shown he can hit MLB pitching for sure.

But he has had a problem with defense. So you bet dollars to donuts they are not going to bounce him from position to position just to get a bat in the lineup. They will put him at a position and have him play it.

soxyess
12-11-2007, 11:37 AM
JR's comments are more indicative of the situation to me. That lineup posted above may only be 3rd or 4th best in the AL central, but it would win the NL central by late August. I'm not reading anything into these comments other than the AL is extremely overpowered and it's near impossible to compete, but we knew that already.


If JR does not want to play with the big boys then get out of the business. Its simple. We are a major market team we should compete like one.

voodoochile
12-11-2007, 11:39 AM
If JR does not want to play with the big boys then get out of the business. Its simple. We are a major market team we should compete like one.

Isn't he? I mean the fact that Detroit and Annaheim have taken another step in payroll this year doesn't mean the Sox are on the cheap. I can't fault the Sox for having a budget to follow when that budget allows for a $100M+ payroll.

itsnotrequired
12-11-2007, 11:42 AM
Isn't he? I mean the fact that Detroit and Annaheim have taken another step in payroll this year doesn't mean the Sox are on the cheap. I can't fault the Sox for having a budget to follow when that budget allows for a $100M+ payroll.

I heard JR is buying a new yacht and will relax on the deck while laughing at all the stupid Sox fans that bought tickets.

ilsox7
12-11-2007, 11:45 AM
I heard JR is buying a new yacht and will relax on the deck while laughing at all the stupid Sox fans that bought tickets.

It's quite the coincidence that I started as a yacht salesman last week. My first two big sales were both to JR. Ironic that he named them "Cut" and "Payroll."

itsnotrequired
12-11-2007, 11:47 AM
It's quite the coincidence that I started as a yacht salesman last week. My first two big sales were both to JR. Ironic that he named them "Cut" and "Payroll."

Did he purchase the walk-in humidor upgrade? A must have for 2008...

Nellie_Fox
12-11-2007, 11:48 AM
I heard JR is buying a new yacht and will relax on the deck while laughing at all the stupid Sox fans that bought tickets.Oh, please.

ilsox7
12-11-2007, 11:50 AM
Did he purchase the walk-in humidor upgrade? A must have for 2008...

It is standard on yachts that size these days. We don't mess around. We're all about quality and making sure that people who spend other people's money are doing it with every extravagance possible.

voodoochile
12-11-2007, 11:50 AM
Oh, please.

He shoulda used teal, nellie, but I am positive INR was being sarcastic...

itsnotrequired
12-11-2007, 11:51 AM
He shoulda used teal, nellie, but I am positive INR was being sarcastic...

I originally was but then I heard about ilsox7's new job as a yacht salesman. What are the odds?!

:party:

dickallen15
12-11-2007, 11:52 AM
If the NL is so much easier, how come KW's team could only muster a 4-14 interleague record last season?

voodoochile
12-11-2007, 11:55 AM
If the NL is so much easier, how come KW's team could only muster a 4-14 interleague record last season?

Well timing didn't help. I mean when the Sox were mired in the worst of the worst of their injuries/poor starts/bullpen coming apart at the seams stretch they were playing the interleague games.

I don't know why I bother. I mean it's obvious the NL is a worse league - look at the WS and AS game records since the early 90's. Now back the toons out of the mix...:tongue:

nevr say dye sox
12-11-2007, 11:56 AM
How can Detriot have a payroll of $130 mil? Has there attendence been better than ours since 05'?

itsnotrequired
12-11-2007, 11:58 AM
How can Detriot have a payroll of $130 mil? Has there attendence been better than ours since 05'?

Not really. The Tigers are going for broke.

nevr say dye sox
12-11-2007, 12:00 PM
Well I guess KW really shook up baseball by refusing to overpay for players, the rest of baseball has really followed suit. KW and JR are real trend setters that even KC has probably passed us in the division. Sox fest should be real intresting when Kenny speaks.

voodoochile
12-11-2007, 12:14 PM
How can Detriot have a payroll of $130 mil? Has there attendence been better than ours since 05'?

Not really. The Tigers are going for broke.

According to Forbes, the Tigers took in $146M last year with a payroll of $91M and only had $3.5M profit.

To offset a $46M increase in payroll, they'd need to increase ticket prices by over $15/seat/game which isn't going to happen. Detroit's economy isn't that good either, so indeed this appears to be a take the loss and go for the trophy move in the hopes it will pay off in years to come.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/33/Revenues_1.html

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/33/332729.html

voodoochile
12-11-2007, 12:15 PM
Well I guess KW really shook up baseball by refusing to overpay for players, the rest of baseball has really followed suit. KW and JR are real trend setters that even KC has probably passed us in the division. Sox fest should be real intresting when Kenny speaks.

What did KC do to pass the Sox?

Blueprint1
12-11-2007, 12:20 PM
What did KC do to pass the Sox?

Good question I would like to know this myself. I am not at all happy with all the moves made this offseason but some of you people are just nuts.

Domeshot17
12-11-2007, 12:47 PM
Im not defending the KC comment too much, but they are not a pushover this year. They are kind of like tampa, most likely a last place team, but playing .500 ball would not "shock" me.

They have an infield of

Gordon-powerful big time prospect, tough rookie year, but has a bright future. Pena soft hitting but slick fielding. Grudz at 2b is a guy you have to respect, hard nosed solid hitter, decent fielder good leader. 1b is up in the air but Butler had a very nice rookie year OPS over 800. In the OF you have Guillen Dejesus and Teahen which isn't that bad.

Their Rotation is strong with Meche-Bannister-Grienke all having sub 4 eras last year (although Grienke spent half the year in the bullpen to find himself). Hochover could be up and if Davies or Odalis Perez turns their career around and their bullpen stays fairly strong, this is a team that just won't be as much of a pushover as people think. Obviously the knock is they don't have the high octane offense. They have a lineup of good average hitters with only Buck (who hit like the mendoza line) and Gordon have Power, with Butler and Teahan having some power potential.

That said, pound for pound I think we are better at almost every position, but this is a Royals team who could fight for a division title in the NL central.

nccwsfan
12-11-2007, 12:53 PM
According to Forbes, the Tigers took in $146M last year with a payroll of $91M and only had $3.5M profit.

To offset a $46M increase in payroll, they'd need to increase ticket prices by over $15/seat/game which isn't going to happen. Detroit's economy isn't that good either, so indeed this appears to be a take the loss and go for the trophy move in the hopes it will pay off in years to come.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/33/Revenues_1.html

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/33/332729.html


Agreed. They're going for it in 2008 and 2009- after that it will be diminishing returns.

:offtopic: If the DH was implemented into the NL it would be purist blasphemy, but it would also slow down the exodus of good hitters in the back end of their careers from moving over to the AL. There are rare exceptions (Bonds being one), but ultimately the sluggers head to the AL. That wouldn't eliminate the disparity between the two leagues, but it wouldn't hurt either. Thoughts?

rdivaldi
12-11-2007, 12:55 PM
The title of this thread is asinine...

duke of dorwood
12-11-2007, 01:03 PM
I just wish people would stop defending, or making excuses for things this guy says. There's enough to indicate there is a problem and perhaps other GM's wont deal with him -who knows what he says in idle talks with others, if he says stuff like this around the press.

Rounding_Third
12-11-2007, 01:05 PM
According to Forbes, the Tigers took in $146M last year with a payroll of $91M and only had $3.5M profit.

To offset a $46M increase in payroll, they'd need to increase ticket prices by over $15/seat/game which isn't going to happen. Detroit's economy isn't that good either, so indeed this appears to be a take the loss and go for the trophy move in the hopes it will pay off in years to come.

This Forbes report is for 2005. It also lists the Sox as making nearly $22m. And I'll bet the profits, though a little less, were still very nice for '06 & '07, as well. It's time for JR to "belly up to the bar" and start spreading the wealth, so to speak, to the fans. He's been cashing in on us for 3 years now; living off the championship probably to the tune of about $50m. I'll bet once attendance begins to dwindle and the "gold rush" is tapped out, it'll be time to rebuild. It always has been and always will be about profit with him. We may get lucky and overachieve once again as we did in '05 but the payroll will continue to be below our competitors.

balke
12-11-2007, 01:06 PM
I just wish people would stop defending, or making excuses for things this guy says. There's enough to indicate there is a problem and perhaps other GM's wont deal with him -who knows what he says in idle talks with others, if he says stuff like this around the press.

LOL :D:

voodoochile
12-11-2007, 01:07 PM
I just wish people would stop defending, or making excuses for things this guy says. There's enough to indicate there is a problem and perhaps other GM's wont deal with him -who knows what he says in idle talks with others, if he says stuff like this around the press.

What that he's frustrated by the way things are going in the league he is working in?

I still say the claim that other GM's won't work with him is total and complete bull****...

southsideirish71
12-11-2007, 01:08 PM
The outhouse at the end of the rainbow to be exact. Puts a whole new twist on that pot o' gold concept...
Maybe someone should have Fukudome call Ichiro.

On how his first visit to Wrigley Field reminded him of an old stadium from his youth in Japan: "It had a similar smell of fresh garbage

WhiteSox5187
12-11-2007, 01:08 PM
I don't like hearing our GM say that one bit, it kinda reminds me of the kid in preschool who whenever he didn't get his way would throw a temper tantrum...I'm sure that Kenny probably MEANT for those comments to be sarcastic, but c'mon, after seven years you HAVE to know how that's going to be portrayed in print. I understand the frusturation, but I wish Kenny would just learn how to say "No comment."

ilsox7
12-11-2007, 01:13 PM
This Forbes report is for 2005. It also lists the Sox as making nearly $22m. And I'll bet the profits, though a little less, were still very nice for '06 & '07, as well. It's time for JR to "belly up to the bar" and start spreading the wealth, so to speak, to the fans. He's been cashing in on us for 3 years now; living off the championship probably to the tune of about $50m. I'll bet once attendance begins to dwindle and the "gold rush" is tapped out, it'll be time to rebuild. It always has been and always will be about profit with him. We may get lucky and overachieve once again as we did in '05 but the payroll will continue to be below our competitors.

It'd be nice if you had one piece of evidence to back any of this up.

spiffie
12-11-2007, 01:17 PM
This Forbes report is for 2005. It also lists the Sox as making nearly $22m. And I'll bet the profits, though a little less, were still very nice for '06 & '07, as well. It's time for JR to "belly up to the bar" and start spreading the wealth, so to speak, to the fans. He's been cashing in on us for 3 years now; living off the championship probably to the tune of about $50m. I'll bet once attendance begins to dwindle and the "gold rush" is tapped out, it'll be time to rebuild. It always has been and always will be about profit with him. We may get lucky and overachieve once again as we did in '05 but the payroll will continue to be below our competitors.
2007, 5th highest payroll in baseball. More than any team in our division. More than our crosstown rivals. More than every other team except the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, and Angels.

There are plenty of things to ***** about right now. The JR is cheap argument though is so tired and played out it might as well be CLR making an Aaron Rowand joke.

champagne030
12-11-2007, 01:25 PM
It'd be nice if you had one piece of evidence to back any of this up.

Here we go again......

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Chicago-White-Sox_334758.html

I don't know about Third's theory, but the numbers do show appoximately $40M in profits over 2005-2006. :D:

ilsox7
12-11-2007, 01:26 PM
Here we go again......

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Chicago-White-Sox_334758.html

I don't know about Third's theory, but the numbers do show appoximately $40M in profits over 2005-2006. :D:

Yes. Here we go again. Do I really need to rehash all of the details about how Forbes does not have real numbers in their "valuations?" No finance person worth their salt would value a company without a realistic estimation of revenues and expenses.

champagne030
12-11-2007, 01:34 PM
Yes. Here we go again. Do I really need to rehash all of the details about how Forbes does not have real numbers in their "valuations?" No finance person worth their salt would value a company without a realistic estimation of revenues and expenses.

Again, we're not talking valuations. We're talking net income and I guess you'll need to rehash the details of how their income statements are bull**** because I don't recall those. They do have real estimations of revenues and expenses.

They, like everyone, use multipliers in their valuations. Those multipliers may be wacky, but I really don't care about their valuations. Nobody can predict what an owner is going to value future revenue streams from and make an offer or how much his ego wants him to be an owner.

This arguement has nothing to do with valuations.

ilsox7
12-11-2007, 01:45 PM
Again, we're not talking valuations. We're talking net income and I guess you'll need to rehash the details of how their income statements are bull**** because I don't recall those. They do have real estimations of revenues and expenses.

They, like everyone, use multipliers in their valuations. Those multipliers may be wacky, but I really don't care about their valuations. Nobody can predict what an owner is going to value future revenue streams from and make an offer or how much his ego wants him to be an owner.

This arguement has nothing to do with valuations.

Again, valuations are based on present and future cash flows. Therefore, calculating a proper NI has everything to do with valuation.

Regardless, if you can show me one place where Forbes breaks down the expenses of each ballclub, I'd love to take a look at it. All I see is Revenue, Gate receipts, Player Expenses, and Operating Income.

For the Sox, they claim revenues of $173MM with player salaries of $102MM. They then show an operating income of $19.5MM. So, where are those other $51MM of expenses? If you can provide that information, that'd be great. Otherwise, it's a blind leap of faith.

Hell, for all we know, the Sox could be making more money than Forbes is reporting. The entire point, though, is we don't know what is going on.

steely712
12-11-2007, 02:01 PM
To me, this is one reason why we will not be competing for a few more years. They definitely have the money to spend, but they (JR) would rather have his bank account filled with an inordinate amount of money, than spend it on the White Sox. I am not sure, but it sounds like the pressure is getting to KW, not because the players are not coming to his team, but because his boss will not give him the right tools to succeed.:gulp:

RowanDye
12-11-2007, 02:08 PM
This quote is one of the more interesting to me:

"You keep hearing everyone say it's just cyclical," Bavasi says. "Well, it's not cyclical. This trend started six years ago, and it has not flat-lined.

This is nothing new, but it again points to the fact that KW and Jerry operate sometimes like they know more about the market than anyone else.

I was happy that KW "overpaid" for the guy he really wanted in Linebrink and put up a lot of money to re-sign Buehrle, but then at other times all we hear is complaining about the market.

I am eager to see how the rest of the free agent period plays out. KW has said multiple times he was going to get a CF this offseason, but let's see if he continues to get outbid.

My question for KW is "When is the risk of overpaying for someone outweighed by the risk of not having anyone?".

Nellie_Fox
12-11-2007, 02:08 PM
To me, this is one reason why we will not be competing for a few more years. They definitely have the money to spend, but they (JR) would rather have his bank account filled with an inordinate amount of money, than spend it on the White Sox. I am not sure, but it sounds like the pressure is getting to KW, not because the players are not coming to his team, but because his boss will not give him the right tools to succeed.:gulp:You guys are aware that there are a lot more investors than just JR, aren't you? And those people have a right to a return on their money. And what's the point of the smiley? What are you drinking to?

Frontman
12-11-2007, 02:16 PM
He may have been taken out of context, like he said it jokingly but they're passing it off as serious, like he was on the detroit competing with us comment.

At least I hope he was taken out of context, if he wasn't, the pressure must really be getting to him now.

Sure sounds like it. Bleary eyed? Slumping in his chair? All that's missing is KW downing a bottle of Wild Turkey......


Sounds like the writer took the best soundbyte and then wrote his article around it.

And stop saying the Sox are cheap. One, they do a ton of freebie/discount promotions compared to other teams *cough*flubs*cough. Second, FIFTH HIGHEST PAYROLL IN ALL OF BASEBALL.

Even still, spending incredibly does not make a winning team.

balke
12-11-2007, 02:16 PM
My question for KW is "When is the risk of overpaying for someone outweighed by the risk of not having anyone?".

When the player wants too many years, or doesn't want to play here regardless of money. Rowandye is your name so you probably want Rowand. Rowand is going to get a lot more money than he's probably worth. He is one of a handful of Sox players who may turn up on the Mitchell report (big injury in bike accident, semi-speedy recovery, much better/stronger on return). There's a lot more KW and JR have to look at than just $$$. How long do they want to stay? Where will they hit in the order? What #'s can you expect? Does the acquisition prevent you from spending on better players at different positions?

steely712
12-11-2007, 02:19 PM
My smiley was drinking, trying to forget that this comment was made

SBSoxFan
12-11-2007, 02:43 PM
I don't understand all the grousing about KW's quote. Did anyone else notice that Bavasi ("I feel for all of us."), Epstein ("The bar is a little higher in the American League."), Cashman ("It's like the Cuban Missile Crisis over here. Everybody keeps adding (to) their arsenal."), and Shapiro ("I'd sure like to see some of these players head to the NL for a change.") all made similar comments?

I found this quote especially pejorative of Detroit: "Look, of all of the teams that came to the winter meetings, only one team (the Tigers) told everyone they were done. Only one team said they were set. Only one team said they were content. Then, ka-boom! The Tigers dropped this on us. I hate to speak for everyone else in our league, but damn, I wish they kept their word." --- Bill Bavasi.

Apparently Detroit surprised everyone by going after Cabrera. It may have been a shrewed move on Detroit's part, but I also wouldn't be surprised if there's long-term backlash associated with Detroit not being upfront about their intentions at the beginning of the winter meetings, considering the implementation of the "round table" this year.

Anyway, there's no one to blame but the NL itself for the shift in the balance of power. The Pittsburghs and the Floridas are to blame for not investing in their product, and building around young stars. The Marlins had 29 other teams they could have traded with; 15 of those were in the NL. Certainly some team in the NL had deep enough pockets and farm systems to trade for a Cabrera.

JNS
12-11-2007, 02:45 PM
Isn't he? I mean the fact that Detroit and Annaheim have taken another step in payroll this year doesn't mean the Sox are on the cheap. I can't fault the Sox for having a budget to follow when that budget allows for a $100M+ payroll.

This goes back to KW's talk about a "market correction" about a year ago. He didn't mean a market correction up, but that's what it is.

Sorry, but $100 mil aion't what it was in the good old days of 2005. Pony up or get out.

Either you do what it takes to win or you don't. Crying about it just makes these guys look like whiny sore-heads.

This is not about fiscal sanity and never has been - it's about winning and doing what it takes to do so - either you want a winner or you don't care. Saying that it would be great to have a winner but we have a budget doesn't cut it. That lousy crap-town Detroit has a guy who wants to win, and knows he'll make money when he does no matter how much he spends on the front end.

As I've said before, JR is narrow and short-sighted in this (among other) aspect. Time to put up or shut up.

Voodoo - are you really willing to put up with ten more years of this stuff about the price of tea in China because they gave us a championship in 2005?

If the quotes and/or the copy about KW's slumping in his chair are out of context, let him say that, otherwise, I tend to believe it - these guys have spent their lives grousing about how expensive players are. Enough already.

voodoochile
12-11-2007, 02:59 PM
This goes back to KW's talk about a "market correction" about a year ago. He didn't mean a market correction up, but that's what it is.

Sorry, but $100 mil aion't what it was in the good old days of 2005. Pony up or get out.

Either you do what it takes to win or you don't. Crying about it just makes these guys look like whiny sore-heads.

This is not about fiscal sanity and never has been - it's about winning and doing what it takes to do so - either you want a winner or you don't care. Saying that it would be great to have a winner but we have a budget doesn't cut it. That lousy crap-town Detroit has a guy who wants to win, and knows he'll make money when he does no matter how much he spends on the front end.

As I've said before, JR is narrow and short-sighted in this (among other) aspect. Time to put up or shut up.

Voodoo - are you really willing to put up with ten more years of this stuff about the price of tea in China because they gave us a championship in 2005?

If the quotes and/or the copy about KW's slumping in his chair are out of context, let him say that, otherwise, I tend to believe it - these guys have spent their lives grousing about how expensive players are. Enough already.

I don't think that's true. Detroit was even looking to deal Willis but had to back down fearing a fan backlash after generating good will with the trade. I seriously doubt that team is going to make money next year and wouldn't be surprised to see them reduce their payroll in years to come unless the owner seriously doesn't give a crap if he loses money hand over fist.

I think KW expecting a market correction may have actually been correct if Annaheim and Detroit didn't suddenly go nuts. Aside from those 4 teams (including NY and Boston) no one else is seriously dumping huge contracts on people. In fact KW had the inside track on Hunter until the Angels went nuts. Add in the fact that very few FA pitchers are signing compared to years past when huge contracts went to marginal guys.

But many teams actually are stepping back their payrolls this season. Twins, Marlins, Orioles are three off the top of my head and few teams except for the previously mentioned ones are dramatically increasing payroll.

Like I said, if KW can field a competitive team then yes, he gets up to 10 years to win another WS, IMO. That's my take on things. No one has to agree with it, but it's lame to make claims that the Sox are pocketing huge chunks of money and not trying. It's also lame to claim the Sox are done dealing or signing this off season. KW is still working the phones and working with the agents for the players available.

And of course I expect a bounce back in terms of production from several players on the team next season. So, I'm not nearly as concerned as you are. I expect the Sox to go down fighting if they go down at all...

ilsox7
12-11-2007, 03:01 PM
I don't think that's true. Detroit was even looking to deal Willis but had to back down fearing a fan backlash after generating good will with the trade. I seriously doubt that team is going to make money next year and wouldn't be surprised to see them reduce their payroll in years to come unless the owner seriously doesn't give a crap if he loses money hand over fist.



The stuff I have read out of Detroit seems to indicate they don't care about profit now. The owner just wants to win and is willing to lose money until he does.

The Immigrant
12-11-2007, 03:11 PM
I don't understand all the grousing about KW's quote. Did anyone else notice that Bavasi ("I feel for all of us."), Epstein ("The bar is a little higher in the American League."), Cashman ("It's like the Cuban Missile Crisis over here. Everybody keeps adding (to) their arsenal."), and Shapiro ("I'd sure like to see some of these players head to the NL for a change.") all made similar comments?

Shhh, let's not ruin another KW-bashing thread.

The Immigrant
12-11-2007, 03:17 PM
The stuff I have read out of Detroit seems to indicate they don't care about profit now. The owner just wants to win and is willing to lose money until he does.

He's 78 years old and filthy rich - not quite Carl Pohlad rich, but still on the Forbes "400 Richest Americans" list. He wants to win a WS title before meeting his maker.

SBSoxFan
12-11-2007, 03:22 PM
Sorry, but $100 mil aion't what it was in the good old days of 2005. Pony up or get out.

Yep, it only took $75M to win a World Series. In 2006, the White Sox payroll increased 37%! Do you call that pony-ing up?

By the way, did you know that, according to usatoday (which is where I got the White Sox payroll totals too), the Boston Red Sox payroll went down after they won the World Series in 2004? In 2004 it was $127.3M, $123.5M in 2005, and $120.1M in 2006. In 2007, it increased "only" 19% to $143M. In raw dollar terms, that's still less than the White Sox payroll increase from 2005 to 2006. So, in terms of finances, who ponied up?

This debate is really getting old. It's not what you spend, but how you spend it.

ilsox7
12-11-2007, 03:24 PM
He's 78 years old and filthy rich - not quite Carl Pohlad rich, but still on the Forbes "400 Richest Americans" list. He wants to win a WS title before meeting his maker.

Yep. And does he own the team outright or does he have a group of investors that collectively own the vast majority of his sporting interests?

The Immigrant
12-11-2007, 03:30 PM
And does he own the team outright or does he have a group of investors that collectively own the vast majority of his sporting interests?

I believe he owns the team outright. He's also not opposed to levering up the team under the right circumstances, like he did in order to finance 50% of Comerica Park.

JNS
12-11-2007, 04:16 PM
I don't think that's true. Detroit was even looking to deal Willis but had to back down fearing a fan backlash after generating good will with the trade. I seriously doubt that team is going to make money next year and wouldn't be surprised to see them reduce their payroll in years to come unless the owner seriously doesn't give a crap if he loses money hand over fist.

I think KW expecting a market correction may have actually been correct if Annaheim and Detroit didn't suddenly go nuts. Aside from those 4 teams (including NY and Boston) no one else is seriously dumping huge contracts on people. In fact KW had the inside track on Hunter until the Angels went nuts. Add in the fact that very few FA pitchers are signing compared to years past when huge contracts went to marginal guys.

But many teams actually are stepping back their payrolls this season. Twins, Marlins, Orioles are three off the top of my head and few teams except for the previously mentioned ones are dramatically increasing payroll.

Like I said, if KW can field a competitive team then yes, he gets up to 10 years to win another WS, IMO. That's my take on things. No one has to agree with it, but it's lame to make claims that the Sox are pocketing huge chunks of money and not trying. It's also lame to claim the Sox are done dealing or signing this off season. KW is still working the phones and working with the agents for the players available.

And of course I expect a bounce back in terms of production from several players on the team next season. So, I'm not nearly as concerned as you are. I expect the Sox to go down fighting if they go down at all...

I think you have look at profitability in a macro sense, not just year-to-year.

Furthermore, I dispute the notion that anyone who invests in a sports franchise, at least as a junior partner expects to make a dividend year in, year out. These things are toys for rich guys; prestige properties if you will, and are not bought with income in mind. It's about bragging rights and having reserved seats in one of the "owners boxes."

As far as profitability goes, the share price is really what counts. The Sox (for example - the Killer Bees are totally through the roof) were bought in 1981 for what - $21 million? And they are worth somewhere between $400 and $700 mil now? Now THAT'S profitability! Of course the Trib bought the Killer Bees for about the same price and Zell will flog em off at about $900 mil, or so they say. The Yanks, along with many NFL franchises are now worth over $1 billion. You don't need to make dough every year with that sort of increase in share price. Having a perennially strong team, with high attendance, strong TV contracts, and a good infrastructure increases that share price. That's why winning creates a profit center, with or without a profit on a yearly basis.

Gotta look at it long-term. I doubt the dude who owns the Tigers and Red Wings is any richer than JR, who sold his business to Amex for $100 in about 1982 or 83. The "shareholders demand a profit so they can pay their kids college tuition" (or whatever) is pure BS. If JR sells out tomorrow he makes (even after adjusting for inflation) over 1000%. I think that may make up for any year-to-year shortfall.

As for the market correction or lack thereof, what about the Jones deal? Or the goofy numbers that Rowand is asking for (and will probably get)? No, I don't think JR is much of a market leader. He talks a good game, but I don't think that John Henry, the Steinbrenner family, Munoz or the guy in Detroit (I forget his name offhand) or any of the other big beasts are doing much listening.

voodoochile
12-11-2007, 04:24 PM
I think you have look at profitability in a macro sense, not just year-to-year.

Furthermore, I dispute the notion that anyone who invests in a sports franchise, at least as a junior partner expects to make a dividend year in, year out. These things are toys for rich guys; prestige properties if you will, and are not bought with income in mind. It's about bragging rights and having reserved seats in one of the "owners boxes."

As far as profitability goes, the share price is really what counts. The Sox (for example - the Killer Bees are totally through the roof) were bought in 1981 for what - $21 million? And they are worth somewhere between $400 and $700 mil now? Now THAT'S profitability! Of course the Trib bought the Killer Bees for about the same price and Zell will flog em off at about $900 mil, or so they say. The Yanks, along with many NFL franchises are now worth over $1 billion. You don't need to make dough every year with that sort of increase in share price. Having a perennially strong team, with high attendance, strong TV contracts, and a good infrastructure increases that share price. That's why winning creates a profit center, with or without a profit on a yearly basis.

Gotta look at it long-term. I doubt the dude who owns the Tigers and Red Wings is any richer than JR, who sold his business to Amex for $100 in about 1982 or 83. The "shareholders demand a profit so they can pay their kids college tuition" (or whatever) is pure BS. If JR sells out tomorrow he makes (even after adjusting for inflation) over 1000%. I think that may make up for any year-to-year shortfall.

As for the market correction or lack thereof, what about the Jones deal? Or the goofy numbers that Rowand is asking for (and will probably get)? No, I don't think JR is much of a market leader. He talks a good game, but I don't think that John Henry, the Steinbrenner family, Munoz or the guy in Detroit (I forget his name offhand) or any of the other big beasts are doing much listening.

Funny thing is I used to agree with you about JR being cheap. I don't anymore and nothing you can say given the current state of the payroll will make me feel differently. You want to keep on with your half empty glass of bitter dregs routine, feel free. I simply cannot fathom your viewpoint at the present time.

Just to clarify, Rowand isn't signed and Jones signed a 2 year deal at a premium price. If he had managed to get a longer deal the per year price would have dropped. So yeah, that's still part of the correction thing. Teams are clearly leary of spending the big bucks - well most of them are. I don't doubt the Sox payroll will increase between now and opening day.

Over By There
12-11-2007, 04:24 PM
Two thoughts after perusing this thread further:

1) If KW is crying and stomping his feet, I wonder how you'd characterize what's been going on here at WSI for about the last week or so.

2) I find it amusing that now GMs "aren't willing to deal with KW." I thought this was the guy that BB proved was easy to fleece?

This board is getting unreadable with the furious, chest-beating KW bashing.

JNS
12-11-2007, 04:27 PM
And of course I expect a bounce back in terms of production from several players on the team next season. So, I'm not nearly as concerned as you are. I expect the Sox to go down fighting if they go down at all...

If the Sox go down fighting in September, after making a good run - in other words the "competitiveness" we have been discussing - I will own up that KW will have done his job. That goes for years beyond 2008 as well. I don't have to like the guy to respect what his record is or may be.

Of course I'd rather "go deep into October" as KW likes to say, but being in the race is what it is all about - if you can keep up with the big boys - the two beasts from the East, plus Detroit and Cleveland in the AL Central, you will be one of the elite teams in the game. That's all I ask for. If you are consistently up there at or near the top, eventually you will win something.

Right now I don't see it, but that's why were are having this discussion! Time will tell.

spiffie
12-11-2007, 04:28 PM
Funny thing is I used to agree with you about JR being cheap. I don't anymore and nothing you can say given the current state of the payroll will make me feel differently. You want to keep on with your half empty glass of bitter dregs routine, feel free. I simply cannot fathom your viewpoint at the present time.

Just to clarify, Rowand isn't signed and Jones signed a 2 year deal at a premium price. If he had managed to get a longer deal the per year price would have dropped. So yeah, that's still part of the correction thing. Teams are clearly leary of spending the big bucks - well most of them are. I don't doubt the Sox payroll will increase between now and opening day.
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't. Not because of any sort of JR is cheap garbage, but because of a few moves that hopefully will happen. It is very possible that both Uribe and Crede might be gone by opening day, moves that would cut around $10 million from the payroll. If the Sox don't sign Rowand or Fukudome, it is hard to envision where they would drop that kind of coin. If they stay in-house for CF, and the rotation, even a few bullpen signings through FA wouldn't be more than that most likely.

voodoochile
12-11-2007, 04:33 PM
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't. Not because of any sort of JR is cheap garbage, but because of a few moves that hopefully will happen. It is very possible that both Uribe and Crede might be gone by opening day, moves that would cut around $10 million from the payroll. If the Sox don't sign Rowand or Fukudome, it is hard to envision where they would drop that kind of coin. If they stay in-house for CF, and the rotation, even a few bullpen signings through FA wouldn't be more than that most likely.

You are correct. I was really saying that I expect more signings or trades that will take on payroll. Some of that may balance by trading guys currently here with big salaries, most notably the two you mentioned.

champagne030
12-11-2007, 04:34 PM
Again, valuations are based on present and future cash flows. Therefore, calculating a proper NI has everything to do with valuation.

Projecting 2008 cash flow has very little to do with 2006 NOI.

Regardless, if you can show me one place where Forbes breaks down the expenses of each ballclub, I'd love to take a look at it. All I see is Revenue, Gate receipts, Player Expenses, and Operating Income.

For the Sox, they claim revenues of $173MM with player salaries of $102MM. They then show an operating income of $19.5MM. So, where are those other $51MM of expenses? If you can provide that information, that'd be great. Otherwise, it's a blind leap of faith.

The Indians' 10K.......

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1059019/0000950152-99-002807.txt

And the Brewers' audited financials from 1994-2003........

http://bob.sabrwebs.com/

....would be good places to start to see what makes up operating expenses. Then piecemealing the expenses together isn't difficult.

Hell, for all we know, the Sox could be making more money than Forbes is reporting. The entire point, though, is we don't know what is going on.

I do believe the Forbes NOI estimates are conservative and that's why MLB doesn't release the audited financials to dispute.

Maybe Nellie is correct and the White Sox have bylaws that XX% of revenue must be distributed to the ownership group and not rolled over to fund future operations (or something to that effect). The point is that there's little, if any, opposition from analysts that owners are making money hand over fist.

Anyway, I'm tired of this debate. You asked another poster for a "shred" of evidence that the Sox were making a killing and I provided it. You have the right to disregard that evidence.

Oblong
12-11-2007, 04:37 PM
I don't trust any financial figures on the Tigers. The ballclub is owned by Mike Ilitch, and only Mike, (His wife owns a Casino and her name's not on the club). It's all part of Ilitch Holdings and they are VERY private with their figures. The park was at 92% capacity last year and could be near that already. Ticket prices went up a little bit, couple bucks. Ilitch has never been one about profits with his sports teams.

santo=dorf
12-11-2007, 04:38 PM
Anyway, I'm tired of this debate. You asked another poster for a "shred" of evidence that the Sox were making a killing and I provided it. You have the right to disregard that evidence.
Exactly. I don't know how many times I've seen the "show me some evidence" followed by "how would they know?" "or I don't trust them" argument from ilsox, specifically in regards to the team's payroll.

DickAllen72
12-11-2007, 05:09 PM
Kenny also thought we were getting Hunter, and trading Crede, and moving Owens over to LF possibly. If they are even lucky enough to have Crede back, then the OF is Dye, Owens, Sweeney/Fields/Anderson. Fields is the only one that's shown he can hit MLB pitching for sure.
Right now the outfield would be Quentin, Owens and Dye. Fields will not be in the OF and Anderson most likely won't be on the major league roster.

Anyway, the title of this thread sucks.

ilsox7
12-11-2007, 05:42 PM
Exactly. I don't know how many times I've seen the "show me some evidence" followed by "how would they know?" "or I don't trust them" argument from ilsox, specifically in regards to the team's payroll.

And I don't know how many times I've seen you challenge my argument with actual data. Oh wait, that's right, none. Champagne came close, but still has not found any White Sox data. Again, show me the back-up data to the Forbes numbers for expenses. I'd love to see it. I have looked and cannot find it. If someone can find it, it'd be extremely helpful. You seem to not understand (or not want to understand) that I would love to know what the Sox make or don't make.

And if you'd actually read what I post, you'd find that I am very open-minded about how much the Sox make or do not make. It's just that the evidence currently out there points to them not pocketing millions upon millions. And your constant failure at showing otherwise speaks volumes.

So are you going to step up to the plate and come up with something or sit back and do nothing, as usual?

To Champagne: good find on those numbers. This is the type of stuff I am talking about. I am going to go through some of this over the next few days. Any idea if the Sox have something similar?

ilsox7
12-11-2007, 05:59 PM
The Indians' 10K.......

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1059019/0000950152-99-002807.txt



The interesting thing there is that the Indians had an operating income of $23MM on $100MM of expenses. If we take Forbes' numbers at face value, the Sox only made $19.5MM on $172MM of revenue. Also, the Indians saw 42% of their revenue come from ticket sales/suites. An additional 11% came from concessions. So, over 50% of their total revenue in 1998 came from home games.

It would be interesting to know how many tickets the Sox will have sold as of the end of January 2008. If this doesn't show that attendance is such a big part of payroll, I don't know what will. I also wonder why the 1998 Indians could clear a 23% operating margin and the 2007 Sox could maybe only clear 11%.

EDIT: Did some more searching. Found the following from Hardball Times. This is pretty much what I harp on when Forbes numbers are brought up. They are not too good at all dealing with expenses.


While we’re at it let’s have a quick look at how the Forbes data tallies on expenses as, if accurate, it will help us greatly later on. There are a couple of problems. First, there is a lot more scope for fudging these numbers, and second, it is much harder to get reliable data. To start with there is less obligation on clubs to release cost data, and also there is a lot more accounting leeway. Take a look at how Forbes stacks up against the audited data for the Brewers and Indians on expenses.
Expenses $m
Year Brewers Forbes
1994 -15.8___ -12
1995 -12_____ 1
1996 -8.3____ 6.6
1997 -8.7___ -4.8
1998 -2.2___ -8.8
1999 -22.3__ -14.4
2000 2______ -1.6
2001 6.7____ 18.8
2002 30.4___ -6.1
2003 2.2_____ 5.1

Year Indians Forbes
1996 7.8____ -6
1997 8.2____ 0.2
1998 12.7___ -6.4

balke
12-11-2007, 07:01 PM
Right now the outfield would be Quentin, Owens and Dye. Fields will not be in the OF and Anderson most likely won't be on the major league roster.

Anyway, the title of this thread sucks.

I was of the understanding that Quentin won't be back til Midseason.

spiffie
12-11-2007, 08:11 PM
The interesting thing there is that the Indians had an operating income of $23MM on $100MM of expenses. If we take Forbes' numbers at face value, the Sox only made $19.5MM on $172MM of revenue. Also, the Indians saw 42% of their revenue come from ticket sales/suites. An additional 11% came from concessions. So, over 50% of their total revenue in 1998 came from home games.

It would be interesting to know how many tickets the Sox will have sold as of the end of January 2008. If this doesn't show that attendance is such a big part of payroll, I don't know what will. I also wonder why the 1998 Indians could clear a 23% operating margin and the 2007 Sox could maybe only clear 11%.

EDIT: Did some more searching. Found the following from Hardball Times. This is pretty much what I harp on when Forbes numbers are brought up. They are not too good at all dealing with expenses.
I don't have hard data to back it up, but I would have to imagine that the amount of non-stadium revenue has increased in the last 10 years. The increase in new media, the increase in Extra Innings revenue, the new tv deals, the increase in international revenue...all of these things are quite lucrative and shared evenly among all the teams.

champagne030
12-11-2007, 09:16 PM
The interesting thing there is that the Indians had an operating income of $23MM on $100MM of expenses. If we take Forbes' numbers at face value, the Sox only made $19.5MM on $172MM of revenue. Also, the Indians saw 42% of their revenue come from ticket sales/suites. An additional 11% came from concessions. So, over 50% of their total revenue in 1998 came from home games.

It would be interesting to know how many tickets the Sox will have sold as of the end of January 2008. If this doesn't show that attendance is such a big part of payroll, I don't know what will. I also wonder why the 1998 Indians could clear a 23% operating margin and the 2007 Sox could maybe only clear 11%.

EDIT: Did some more searching. Found the following from Hardball Times. This is pretty much what I harp on when Forbes numbers are brought up. They are not too good at all dealing with expenses.

I haven't had time to look at the questions you brought up about the Indians revenue, but I just took a look at the numbers from Hardball Times and I have no idea what they represent.

The numbers you/they provided are not expenses. They're NOI on the Forbes' side. And the Indians' K ties (relatively) to those numbers. I have no idea what the figures they provide as "Indians" represent.

That said, and I don't want to escalate this, a response you made in this thread stated that evidence shows that the Sox are not making 'big' profits. Where did you find this evidence?

Edit:

I think you're looking at the partial year financials. The "predecessor" group owned the Indians from 1/1-6/8. You need to consolidate the numbers to get the full year.

DickAllen72
12-11-2007, 09:39 PM
I was of the understanding that Quentin won't be back til Midseason.
Originally I heard May 1, but later I read that he is rehabbing ahead of schedule and expects to be ready sometime during spring training.

soxfan43
12-11-2007, 10:28 PM
Ilitch also owns the Red wings. Before the salary cap days, he brought in a ton of expensive players to win the cup. He wants to win and wants to win now. Worked before for him, why not try it again? He might not be around to see Maybin or Miller potentially become stars. As far as the Sox go, anyone ever bring up the fact that a terrible free agent market awaited them after a horrible season? There weren't too many options out there. Hunter would have been ok, but at the price he got? Come on. I don't blame Jerry for not spending on that. People complain and complain about not spending money, but after winning the World Series Thome and Javy came in, who aren't cheap. The problem has been questionable trades, signings and years of poor drafting. We all knew one pitcher would most likely get dealt this winter. Jose is probably untradeable and Javy is locked up, that left Garland. Maybe Kenny could've gotten a different return, who knows. Crede is really the only other chip you can move without dismantling the team, and you can't expect a big return there. So while Kenny is clearly mostly to blame for this mess, lack of options this offseason is a big factor as well.

WhiteSox5187
12-11-2007, 10:35 PM
Ilitch also owns the Red wings. Before the salary cap days, he brought in a ton of expensive players to win the cup. He wants to win and wants to win now. Worked before for him, why not try it again? He might not be around to see Maybin or Miller potentially become stars. As far as the Sox go, anyone ever bring up the fact that a terrible free agent market awaited them after a horrible season? There weren't too many options out there. Hunter would have been ok, but at the price he got? Come on. I don't blame Jerry for not spending on that. People complain and complain about not spending money, but after winning the World Series Thome and Javy came in, who aren't cheap. The problem has been questionable trades, signings and years of poor drafting. We all knew one pitcher would most likely get dealt this winter. Jose is probably untradeable and Javy is locked up, that left Garland. Maybe Kenny could've gotten a different return, who knows. Crede is really the only other chip you can move without dismantling the team, and you can't expect a big return there. So while Kenny is clearly mostly to blame for this mess, lack of options this offseason is a big factor as well.
That's a good point, bu the lack of options haven't hurt teams like the Angels or the Tigers so much. They also don't seem to have hurt the Cubs very much either (though I still think they need to improve upon pitching)...

BadBobbyJenks
12-11-2007, 10:40 PM
what a joke of a thread title.

The article is about the al being far superior to the national league...

why exactly is KW being ripped for this one?

soxfan43
12-11-2007, 10:42 PM
That's a good point, bu the lack of options haven't hurt teams like the Angels or the Tigers so much. They also don't seem to have hurt the Cubs very much either (though I still think they need to improve upon pitching)...


The Tigers had the prospects to trade, the Sox didn't. I, for one, am fine with Hunter signing with Anaheimfor that amount. That contract would hurt a team like the Sox way more than the Angels, because we know their owner wants to win bad and will spend to do so. Theres a difference between spending and going crazy though. As far as the Cubs, we'll see. Having never seen this Fukodome guy play, I can't really comment. But that's all they've really done to get better. Kenny and all some fans talked up this winter a ton, but realistically, I didn't expect much to be done. Most of my ideas would be pipe dreams at this point due to payroll limitations or lack of viable players to trade.

Tragg
12-11-2007, 10:44 PM
Last July, Williams was open for business and rarin to go, but failed to cut any serious deals, except for 2 minor salary dumps. His initial instincts were to dump Garland, MB and Dye. He shifted course, obviously.

This winter, he hasn't been able to work out any significant deals either. His FA signings have been limited to a middle reliever, albeit an exensive one.

Most of his trades since the WS have been with Arizona and the Phillies,
For whatever reason, he's not able to turn many deals.
Right now I'd go with Dye-Anderson and Quinten in the OF and let Richar lead off.

btrain929
12-11-2007, 10:52 PM
I was of the understanding that Quentin won't be back til Midseason.

According to this whitesox.com article, down about 2/3's of the page, it says his surgery took place in October, and his current rehab should have him ready for Spring Training in February....

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071203&content_id=2315914&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

ilsox7
12-11-2007, 11:28 PM
I haven't had time to look at the questions you brought up about the Indians revenue, but I just took a look at the numbers from Hardball Times and I have no idea what they represent.

The numbers you/they provided are not expenses. They're NOI on the Forbes' side. And the Indians' K ties (relatively) to those numbers. I have no idea what the figures they provide as "Indians" represent.

That said, and I don't want to escalate this, a response you made in this thread stated that evidence shows that the Sox are not making 'big' profits. Where did you find this evidence?

Edit:

I think you're looking at the partial year financials. The "predecessor" group owned the Indians from 1/1-6/8. You need to consolidate the numbers to get the full year.

Yea, I just glossed through the numbers quickly. And I don't view this as escalating. I actually think we've made some progress with this. I really am not out to prove that the Sox make a ton of money or do not make a ton of money. I am out to figure out what the heck is going on. The only reason I dispute the Forbes numbers is b/c they are not transparent at all with their methodology.

As for the "evidence" I was talking about earlier (at least I think this is what I was referencing) was what happened after the World Series. JR always said that if the revenues were there, he'd raise payroll. We always got pissed and said if they win, we'll show up. It was a chicken/egg problem. Anyways, when the Sox won and crowds grew bigger, JR did increase payroll bu something like 30-40%. So that was the evidence I was citing. Basically, he was true to his word.

I know that's not much evidence, but it is something concrete we can point to. My contention with Forbes is that the expense numbers are not concrete at all. But it's great that this Indians and Brewers information is out there. It's the first time I've ever seen it (I must have missed it before).

Again, I really do not have an agenda here other than to critically challenge numbers that are presented to me, but do not seem up to snuff. It'd be a great achievement to get some sort of realistic idea of where the Sox stand financially. Because then we could truly figure out if an extra $10-15MM spread out over 5 years to a player would truly hurt the franchise.

Jerome
12-12-2007, 12:31 AM
If the NL is so much easier, how come KW's team could only muster a 4-14 interleague record last season?

yeah *** there were a LOT of NL teams that were better than the sox last year :?:

Soxfest
12-12-2007, 02:48 AM
KW if you really feel this way quit and Jerry please sell the team then, I am so tired of your whining ways every off-season!:angry:

Flight #24
12-12-2007, 06:52 AM
I'll tell you this: For a guy who supposedly likes to be "under the radar", Kenny sure says a lot to the media. Then complains when people talk about what he says. I'm sure he assumes that the media's goal is to be as non-sensational and non-controversial as possible, that's the benefit of that Stanford education for you!

Of course, for a guy who supposedly finds fundamentals so important, the Sox minor league system has gone a very long time without consistently producing players that exhibit any. So maybe it shouldn't be surprising that what he says has little relation to what he does.

Kenny - learn to shut the hell up. Especially when you're struggling because you WILL NOT be able to win any PR battles.

balke
12-12-2007, 09:48 AM
According to this whitesox.com article, down about 2/3's of the page, it says his surgery took place in October, and his current rehab should have him ready for Spring Training in February....

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071203&content_id=2315914&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws


That's cool and all, but I really hope he's ready, and isn't "Toby Hall ready". IMO Fields should start the season in LF if Crede stays, regardless of defense in the OF, his bat is too good to keep him out of the lineup, and he'll hurt the team a lot less in LF than at 3B. We'll see what happens though, there's a lot of offseason left.

gosox41
12-12-2007, 11:27 AM
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2007-12-10-alnl-baseball_N.htm


I won't over analyze his comment by what he means and all that. But if he does want to leave, I'd prefer it be sooner rather then later.


Bob