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AJ Hellraiser
12-06-2007, 08:17 AM
Haven't seen it posted yet, but from today's Sun-Times:

http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2007/12/high_praise.html#more

I am not sure when KW will stop being a disappointment... I don't know how much more of this I can take.... Danks was okay last year, but I don't know that he's ready to be a 3 or 4 in a rotation.... Floyd is barely a No. 5....

The quote near the top regarding other executives thinking they are both top of the rotation guys might just show a bit that KW is losing his mind...

I am a huge KW supporter, always have been... But for the first time during his reign as GM, this week has made me have doubts and feel more disappointed in his stances and manuevering than I ever have before...

SoxxoS
12-06-2007, 08:21 AM
First off, you know KW and he isn't going to divulge any information.

Second, what did you expect him to say? Well, Danks kind of sucked last year, so that is a hole - and who knows what to expect from Gavin Floyd, he is more inconsistent than weather in March in Chicago...so yeah, we have gaping holes that we need to fill, and to be honest, I am worried.

:?:

voodoochile
12-06-2007, 08:25 AM
He may be building them up a bit verbally either to show confidence in them for their sake or to build up their trade value.

He may also have his hands tied a bit. Maybe the Sox don't have a lot of extra money to spend and KW is trying to put the best face on it he can.

Finally, maybe he really does feel that way. That's his job - evaluate talent and decide who stays and who goes. Unlike in smaller market towns there is a ton of scrutiny focused on Kenny and he constantly has to justify his actions to a large group of media, many of who want to see him fail or catch him saying things they can come back to hammer later because it makes their jobs easier. Add in the high expectations of the fan base and the recent disappointments and right now, getting KW to say something they can get mileage out of is a primary focus and saying he likes his young pitchers is sure to do just that - see the first post in this thread as an example.

And who knows, maybe Kenny's right...

spawn
12-06-2007, 08:25 AM
Good God. I think KW just needs to be quiet, only because he can't win, no matter what he says or tries to do. But if he just said "no comment", people here would ***** and say he doesn't care or isn't trying to improve the team. He's in a lose-lose situation: comment, he gets ripped. Say nothing, he'll get ripped. Jeez.

AJ Hellraiser
12-06-2007, 08:26 AM
First off, you know KW and he isn't going to divulge any information.

Second, what did you expect him to say? Well, Danks kind of sucked last year, so that is a hole - and who knows what to expect from Gavin Floyd, he is more inconsistent than weather in March in Chicago...so yeah, we have gaping holes that we need to fill, and to be honest, I am worried.

:?:

I understand posturing needs to be done and putting up a smokescreen... But, his comments the last 2 days have been very disturbing if true....

You know what other executives find Danks and Floyd appealing as front of the rotation guys? The GM's in Washington, Pittburgh, Kansas City and Texas... Not even sure Tampa Bay would anymore... are we really on a level playing field with those teams now?

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 08:28 AM
Good God. I think KW just needs to be quiet, only because he can't win, no matter what he says or tries to do. But if he just said "no comment", people here would ***** and say he doesn't care or isn't trying to improve the team. He's in a lose-lose situation: comment, he gets ripped. Say nothing, he'll get ripped. Jeez.

Yep. Sox fans have become insane.

Juice16
12-06-2007, 08:33 AM
Haven't seen it posted yet, but from today's Sun-Times:

http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2007/12/high_praise.html#more

I am not sure when KW will stop being a disappointment... I don't know how much more of this I can take.... Danks was okay last year, but I don't know that he's ready to be a 3 or 4 in a rotation.... Floyd is barely a No. 5....

The quote near the top regarding other executives thinking they are both top of the rotation guys might just show a bit that KW is losing his mind...

I am a huge KW supporter, always have been... But for the first time during his reign as GM, this week has made me have doubts and feel more disappointed in his stances and manuevering than I ever have before...

My doubts began last spring training after watching the bullpen he assembled. Myself and a few other board members expressed our concern only to be shot down by the "In Kenny We Trust" crowd. Look, I think we are all huge Kenny fans, it doesn't mean we have to like or trust every move he does like we are sheep. I'm scared if Danks and Floyd are our 4-5 pitchers. We all saw first hand how pitching wins championships, yet our staff as a whole is IMO average at best. I'm still rooting for Kenny this off season but my optimism has shrunk over the past week.

santo=dorf
12-06-2007, 08:37 AM
First off, you know KW and he isn't going to divulge any information.

Oh BS. He came out last night and complained about executives spreading the White Sox plans. Obviously he's talking. He text messages players telling them "they're next" and he doesn't sign him. Do you expect Torii to keep his big mouth shut?

Two words for you :"Big Fish."

Corlose 15
12-06-2007, 08:40 AM
I'm not totally sure what people want Kenny to do about the rotation. They don't have the prospects to get Haren, or Santanta. There's no way in hell the Twins would trade Santana in the division anyways. Maybe Bedard, but I'm sure the Orioles want a king's ransom for him too.

So, you're left with the Sox either overpaying for a mediocre starter like Silva, or Lohse, or an injury risk like Colon. Personally, I'd rather they give Danks and Floyd a chance. Both of these guys are still highly regarded prospects. They're both talented enough to have been first round picks and both pitched well at times last year. I think they're they better option.

AJ Hellraiser
12-06-2007, 08:44 AM
I'm not totally sure what people want Kenny to do about the rotation. They don't have the prospects to get Haren, or Santanta. There's no way in hell the Twins would trade Santana in the division anyways. Maybe Bedard, but I'm sure the Orioles want a king's ransom for him too.

So, you're left with the Sox either overpaying for a mediocre starter like Silva, or Lohse, or an injury risk like Colon. Personally, I'd rather they give Danks and Floyd a chance. Both of these guys are still highly regarded prospects. They're both talented enough to have been first round picks and both pitched well at times last year. I think they're they better option.

The first part of your response is really the problem in a nutshell....

The second part shows how much of a crossroads the franchise is at... By re-signing Buehrle, Vazuez and Dye and hanging onto Thome, Konerko, Contreras...KW was saying we were still going after it all in this final 2-3 year window... But, we are doing that with young, inexperienced prospects in the rotation?

I mean you go one way or another... you land the big name guys and keep them away from your division front-runners or you dump big name guys and focus on the future... that's the whole point here... what is the direction of this franchise at the present time?

Heffalump
12-06-2007, 08:48 AM
I just don't get KW's love for this guy.....

Asked about entering the season with John Danks and Gavin Floyd in the backend of his starting rotation, Williams responded, “Well, they’re in the back-end of the rotation now, but in 29 other rooms around the building right here these are two guys that everyone would want, and most people in the industry view as top-of-the-rotation guys. Our pitching is not going to be a problem this year. We’ll be fine in that area….Gavin Floyd showed us last year that he’s ready for full-time big-league work.”

The guy went 1-5 with a 5.27 era and gave up 17 home runs in 70 innings. KW is smoking something if any "people in the industry" view this guy as a “top of the rotation” guy.

I guess this is just me venting, by at this point I am just as concerned about our starting rotation and bullpen as I am about our lineup. IMO, after Buehrle and Vasquez everything else is question marks.

Oh well.

Please Kenny, just stop talking and start working. (give Ozzie this message too please).

Thank you and have a nice day.

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 08:49 AM
I was down in Nashville this week. It was pathetic. KW was just sitting around the pool the entire time doing nothing. The most I saw him do was order a pina colada at the hotel bar. I gave him a piece of my mind!

jabrch
12-06-2007, 08:50 AM
Please Kenny, just stop talking and start working. (give Ozzie this message too please).


Yeah - that's it...He just needs to start working. Cuz so far, KW has done no work and just sat around "talking"...

Heffalump
12-06-2007, 08:52 AM
I was down in Nashville this week. It was pathetic. KW was just sitting around the pool the entire time doing nothing. The most I saw him do was order a pina colada at the hotel bar. I gave him a piece of my mind!


Yeah, I know I am spazzing out a bit. But with KW and Ozzie talking like Hunter and Cabrera were already locked up, it just gets on my nerves a bit. And all the KW love for Floyd as his special reclamation project into an ace is mind boggling to me.

Like I said.....Oh well.

soxtalker
12-06-2007, 08:52 AM
Haven't seen it posted yet, but from today's Sun-Times:

http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2007/12/high_praise.html#more

I am not sure when KW will stop being a disappointment... I don't know how much more of this I can take.... Danks was okay last year, but I don't know that he's ready to be a 3 or 4 in a rotation.... Floyd is barely a No. 5....

The quote near the top regarding other executives thinking they are both top of the rotation guys might just show a bit that KW is losing his mind...

I am a huge KW supporter, always have been... But for the first time during his reign as GM, this week has made me have doubts and feel more disappointed in his stances and manuevering than I ever have before...

I must have missed something in the past few weeks. I don't recall any comments by KW or even much in the way of rumors that would have indicated that he was looking for another SP. In contrast, there was plenty of discussion about SS, CF, LF, and relief pitching. I guess that I always assumed that one of the reasons for trading away Garland was to open up positions for the younger pitchers.

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 08:55 AM
Yeah, I know I am spazzing out a bit. But with KW and Ozzie talking like Hunter and Cabrera were already locked up, it just gets on my nerves a bit. And all the KW love for Floyd as his special reclamation project into an ace is mind boggling to me.

Like I said.....Oh well.

The good news is that Gavin looked good in his last 6 starts last year. Now that doesn't mean he will pitch like that during all of 2008. But the bottom line is that it is highly unlikely our rotation is going to change between now and Opening Day.

During this off season thus far, we have vastly upgraded SS, added a solid/above average bullpen piece, and added a guy with good potential for a corner outfield spot. This leaves CF/leadoff.

If people had no clue that the Sox were trying to get Miggy or Toriiiiiii, most folks around here would probably be pleased.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 08:55 AM
Yep. Sox fans have become insane.


Frankly, he's said some stupid ****, no matter what his motivations.

"29 teams wish they had Gavin Floyd"
"The Tigers are trying to compete with us"

I understand he's trying to be positive, and I'm not that upset that he's said these things because they really have no impact on our team...but let's be honest---these are very very stupid things to say

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 08:57 AM
I was down in Nashville this week. It was pathetic. KW was just sitting around the pool the entire time doing nothing. The most I saw him do was order a pina colada at the hotel bar. I gave him a piece of my mind!

Oh come on. No one thinks Kenny's doing nothing.

The problem is what Corlose said--the only good pitchers are available by trade, and we have nothing to trade without creating more holes...

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 08:57 AM
Frankly, he's said some stupid ****, no matter what his motivations.

"29 teams wish they had Gavin Floyd"
"The Tigers are trying to compete with us"

I understand he's trying to be positive, and I'm not that upset that he's said these things because they really have no impact on our team...but let's be honest---these are very very stupid things to say

I really think he is just saying random **** at this point. Plus, I'd rather have him say that than tear the young players down in the media. Gavin looked good in his last 6 starts last year. He also has proved to be a bit of a headcase. So if some public confidence helps him continue what he did last year into 2008, then I am all for it.

skottyj242
12-06-2007, 08:58 AM
I like them too.

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 08:58 AM
Oh come on. No one thinks Kenny's doing nothing.

The problem is what Corlose said--the only good pitchers are available by trade, and we have nothing to trade without creating more holes...

I was responding to someone who said that KW needed to start working.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 09:01 AM
I really think he is just saying random **** at this point. Plus, I'd rather have him say that than tear the young players down in the media. Gavin looked good in his last 6 starts last year. He also has proved to be a bit of a headcase. So if some public confidence helps him continue what he did last year into 2008, then I am all for it.

I prefer that he say this ridiculously positive **** than negative stuff too. I'm with you on that.

I just wish he wouldn't say asinine stuff that makes him sound stubbornly ignorant (even though I know that's not the case....the ignorant part, at least)

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 09:02 AM
I was responding to someone who said that KW needed to start working.

Maybe not START working, but he needs to start REALLY getting to work right now.

I don't think him talking is distracting him from it....but who knows~!

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 09:04 AM
I prefer that he say this ridiculously positive **** than negative stuff too. I'm with you on that.

I just wish he wouldn't say asinine stuff that makes him sound stubbornly ignorant (even though I know that's not the case....the ignorant part, at least)

I think when you're in such a public role as he is, you just have to roll with the punches. That's one thing KW needs to do better. He lets the media and some fans get to him more than they should. But sometimes I have difficulty blaming him b/c you've got media dumbasses trying to eavesdrop and phone calls and people with internet connections who think they have a clue about how to be a GM.

It's quite fascinating, really. There are lots of people out there who sincerely believe they would be a better GM than every other GM in the game of baseball. Just ask them and they'll tell you the same.

voodoochile
12-06-2007, 09:06 AM
Maybe not START working, but he needs to start REALLY getting to work right now.

I don't think him talking is distracting him from it....but who knows~!

No no no... he should be locked in his office with scouting reports, a computer that can only access on-line scouting sites and send e-mails to other MLB GM's and a phone with those GM's phone number pre-programmed in and every other outgoing call blocked.

Food should be delivered through a slot in the door by Sox scouts who shout information through that slot while delivering it.

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 09:06 AM
Maybe not START working, but he needs to start REALLY getting to work right now.

I don't think him talking is distracting him from it....but who knows~!

The biggest piece left that KW needs is a CF. If he gets a good one, then he has improved SS, CF, and the bullpen. Add another veteran piece to the bullpen (maybe for Crede or Uribe) and I think you're getting very close to the 2008 White Sox.

AJ Hellraiser
12-06-2007, 09:11 AM
The biggest piece left that KW needs is a CF. If he gets a good one, then he has improved SS, CF, and the bullpen. Add another veteran piece to the bullpen (maybe for Crede or Uribe) and I think you're getting very close to the 2008 White Sox.

Rowand will be signed sometime soon... I don't know the timetable.. could be today, next week or 2 weeks... but I have said since day 1 it would be Rowand and I am sticking with it...

As I said in the Rowand threat in "What's the Score?"

2 good sources have told me within the hour that KW has offered a 4-year, 14-15mill deal...and Rowand will most likely accept it seeing as how his options are limited... He'd rather play with us than Texas... Cant re-sign with Philly now until March 1st and Dodgers are out of the picture...

Both sources happen to work for ESPN, one in Chicago and one with me here in Bristol, CT...

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 09:12 AM
The biggest piece left that KW needs is a CF. If he gets a good one, then he has improved SS, CF, and the bullpen. Add another veteran piece to the bullpen (maybe for Crede or Uribe) and I think you're getting very close to the 2008 White Sox.

As long as you're content with 2008 as a rebuilding year (I am).


Reading some of these posts, a lot of people seem to think it's conceivable we can compete in 08.

IF that's the case, we need at least 2 bullpen arms, a CF and/or Leadoff man, a corner outfielder or a 2B, and a starting pitcher.

That's a lot of work

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 09:14 AM
Rowand will be signed sometime soon... I don't know the timetable.. could be today, next week or 2 weeks... but I have said since day 1 it would be Rowand and I am sticking with it...

As I said in the Rowand threat in "What's the Score?"

2 good sources have told me within the hour that KW has offered a 4-year, 14-15mill deal...and Rowand will most likely accept it seeing as how his options are limited... He'd rather play with us than Texas... Cant re-sign with Philly now until March 1st and Dodgers are out of the picture...

Both sources happen to work for ESPN, one in Chicago and one with me here in Bristol, CT...

It wouldn't surprise me at all if that happens. Rowand wouldn't be my top choice, but he is certainly a big improvement over what was out there in 2007. And if he can have anywhere close to the year he had last year, he will help this team a lot.

Frontman
12-06-2007, 09:15 AM
Yep. Sox fans have become insane.

Well, it has been a few years since we won anything......

Same as his comments about the Tigers deal, gang. PR and such. Simply put, nothing really to get worked up about. (But, let's face it, we're gonna get worked up anyways.)

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 09:16 AM
As long as you're content with 2008 as a rebuilding year (I am).


Reading some of these posts, a lot of people seem to think it's conceivable we can compete in 08.

IF that's the case, we need at least 2 bullpen arms, a CF and/or Leadoff man, a corner outfielder or a 2B, and a starting pitcher.

That's a lot of work

I don't think it's necessarily a rebuilding year. Now, I won't go into the year expecting to win the division, but I think that is still a possibility. Would a LOT of things have to go right? Sure. But it's not inconceivable in my opinion.

I think the line-up will rebound nicely with a solid CF. And if Jenks and Linebrink are solid, that really helps the bullpen. The biggest question is Contreras, Danks, and Floyd. That's why it would be difficult to go into the year expecting a world series contender.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 09:22 AM
I don't think it's necessarily a rebuilding year. Now, I won't go into the year expecting to win the division, but I think that is still a possibility. Would a LOT of things have to go right? Sure. But it's not inconceivable in my opinion.

I think the line-up will rebound nicely with a solid CF. And if Jenks and Linebrink are solid, that really helps the bullpen. The biggest question is Contreras, Danks, and Floyd. That's why it would be difficult to go into the year expecting a world series contender.

It's not the lineup I'm worried about....

It's having 3 HUGE question marks in the rotation and about 4 huge question marks (upside down question marks) in the bullpen....

And all this with a slightly above-average lineup? Doesn't bode well....

For everyone evoking 2005, we sure don't have a team that even remotely resembles the great pitching and defense model of 2005....we have mediocre (AT BEST) pitching, a below-average bullpen, and brutal defense at all positions right now but SS, 1B, and RF

btrain929
12-06-2007, 09:38 AM
Just my 2 cents...

I would package some of these arms that seem to not have a future with us (Macdougal, Aardsma, Sisco, Masset maybe), and maybe even Sweeney and Anderson, for a couple A/AA arms each or for some decent/somewhat promising position players. I'm not expecting to find any Camerin Maybin's or anything, but people that might turn into something. Then Use Crede and Uribe to get at least 1 quality, maybe 2 decent bullpen arms. This way, our farm will be slightly improved, our bullpen will be greatly improved, and some money will be saved.

The only problem with the idea above is if we can trust our scouts to find decent players in our people's systems that don't have big household names for minor league standards (Quentin, etc).

With Aardsma and Masset out of options, and Macdougal a huge question mark, what ELSE can you do with these guys? Something has to happen...

The Immigrant
12-06-2007, 09:43 AM
Yep. Sox fans have become insane.

I am absolutely disgusted by the reaction of our fanbase after the Cabrera/Willis trade.

Juice16
12-06-2007, 09:45 AM
I must have missed something in the past few weeks. I don't recall any comments by KW or even much in the way of rumors that would have indicated that he was looking for another SP. In contrast, there was plenty of discussion about SS, CF, LF, and relief pitching. I guess that I always assumed that one of the reasons for trading away Garland was to open up positions for the younger pitchers.

I would think looking at your starting staff the way it is now would be grounds enough to look for another starter or two. If Kenny is not, then that is a problem.

Taliesinrk
12-06-2007, 09:54 AM
I'm not totally sure what people want Kenny to do about the rotation. They don't have the prospects to get Haren, or Santanta. There's no way in hell the Twins would trade Santana in the division anyways. Maybe Bedard, but I'm sure the Orioles want a king's ransom for him too.

So, you're left with the Sox either overpaying for a mediocre starter like Silva, or Lohse, or an injury risk like Colon. Personally, I'd rather they give Danks and Floyd a chance. Both of these guys are still highly regarded prospects. They're both talented enough to have been first round picks and both pitched well at times last year. I think they're they better option.

Yes. I have no idea what to think right now, but it's nice to fainally hear someone else have faith in those two. Young pitchers don't get good without being given a shot. Typically, they also dont come in in their first year with a 2.00 ERA either. They're called growing pains, and with the state of things, I think that we should experience some to be better in the future... not going with Luis Gonzalez..

AJ Hellraiser
12-06-2007, 09:54 AM
I am absolutely disgusted by the reaction of our fanbase after the Cabrera/Willis trade.

Fans have every right to be disgusted when a guy that might be the 2nd best hitter in baseball and a pitcher that has had success in the past and is still young join a division rival that has been more proactive and was already better than your team...

Go on being disgusted, but it's all a fair reaction...

Hitmen77
12-06-2007, 10:02 AM
The good news is that Gavin looked good in his last 6 starts last year. Now that doesn't mean he will pitch like that during all of 2008. But the bottom line is that it is highly unlikely our rotation is going to change between now and Opening Day.

During this off season thus far, we have vastly upgraded SS, added a solid/above average bullpen piece, and added a guy with good potential for a corner outfield spot. This leaves CF/leadoff.

If people had no clue that the Sox were trying to get Miggy or Toriiiiiii, most folks around here would probably be pleased.

I think this is the cause of all the crazy reactions in a nutshell. I'm not suggesting that the Sox would be able to totally keep quiet that they were interested in these guys, but I think they make to many "we're going after big fish" comments for their own good.

The thing about M. Cabrera is that he doesn't play a position that is one of this team's big problem spots. Yeah, I'd love to have his bat on our lineup - don't get me wrong. But, he plays 3B and we already have two 3Bs. I'm not sure how the Sox not landing him was a big failure for filling the holes in this team.

BadBobbyJenks
12-06-2007, 10:05 AM
I like them too.


Me too.

spiffie
12-06-2007, 10:16 AM
No no no... he should be locked in his office with scouting reports, a computer that can only access on-line scouting sites and send e-mails to other MLB GM's and a phone with those GM's phone number pre-programmed in and every other outgoing call blocked.

Food should be delivered through a slot in the door by Sox scouts who shout information through that slot while delivering it.
No food until we have at least one more credible bullpen arm and a real #3 starter! :tongue:

The Immigrant
12-06-2007, 10:18 AM
Fans have every right to be disgusted when a guy that might be the 2nd best hitter in baseball and a pitcher that has had success in the past and is still young join a division rival that has been more proactive and was already better than your team...

Go on being disgusted, but it's all a fair reaction...

No, it's not a fair reaction. It's a completely irrational reaction given that the Sox had no realistic chance of getting Cabrera and would have had to literraly sell the farm to get him. Am I disappointed that we didn't get him? Sure, although I would have been reluctant to part with Fields, Gonzales, Danks and whoever else for two years of Cabrera, especially since we don't need a third baseman. But the histrionic response of so many on these boards is absolutely ****ing pathetic.

dickallen15
12-06-2007, 10:20 AM
No, it's not a fair reaction. It's a completely irrational reaction given that the Sox had no realistic chance of getting Cabrera and would have had to literraly sell the farm to get him. Am I disappointed that we didn't get him? Sure, although I would have been reluctant to part with Fields, Gonzales, Danks and whoever else for two years of Cabrera, especially since we don't need a third baseman. But the histrionic response of so many on these boards is absolutely ****ing pathetic.

I don't think the reaction would have been so bad had it not been a division rival doing the acquiring. I think most people knew the White Sox getting Cabrera was a longshot.

AJ Hellraiser
12-06-2007, 10:24 AM
No, it's not a fair reaction. It's a completely irrational reaction given that the Sox had no realistic chance of getting Cabrera and would have had to literraly sell the farm to get him. Am I disappointed that we didn't get him? Sure, although I would have been reluctant to part with Fields, Gonzales, Danks and whoever else for two years of Cabrera, especially since we don't need a third baseman. But the histrionic response of so many on these boards is absolutely ****ing pathetic.

The problem is our farm system is so bad we couldn't get him.. that's the ***ing pathetic thing....

Also, I think it is assumed that had the SOX gotten him they would have locked the 24-year-old up long term... if Detroit doesn't do that and loses him after 2 seasons then this isn't so bad..

WizardsofOzzie
12-06-2007, 11:06 AM
Yep. Sox fans have become insane.
They want more pie :redneck (http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/7577/1975/1600/936442/prologue%202of3.jpg)

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 11:07 AM
No, it's not a fair reaction. It's a completely irrational reaction given that the Sox had no realistic chance of getting Cabrera and would have had to literraly sell the farm to get him. Am I disappointed that we didn't get him? Sure, although I would have been reluctant to part with Fields, Gonzales, Danks and whoever else for two years of Cabrera, especially since we don't need a third baseman. But the histrionic response of so many on these boards is absolutely ****ing pathetic.

Whose fault is it we didn't have the pieces to have a realistic chance to get him?

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 11:36 AM
I am absolutely disgusted by the reaction of our fanbase after the Cabrera/Willis trade.

As am I. But I am not surprised. I think it's fair to say that this fanbase will never be happy. And I mean never.

jabrch
12-06-2007, 11:38 AM
As am I. But I am not surprised. I think it's fair to say that this fanbase will never be happy. And I mean never.

I think this fanbase sucks moreso now than ever before. It used to be a smaller crowd, but one that was truly baseball saavy. I think the new Sox fans know less than before, and think they know more than ever.

voodoochile
12-06-2007, 11:45 AM
I think this fanbase sucks moreso now than ever before. It used to be a smaller crowd, but one that was truly baseball saavy. I think the new Sox fans know less than before, and think they know more than ever.

The joy and curse of living in the Internet age of instant access.

Everyone is free to look up any stats/opinions/information they choose and then find some place to regurgitate it as fact and look like a genius. Throw in some cheapo analysis of your own, shout down whoever disagrees with you, back up your shouting with more crappy elementary level analysis based on logic that appears to be sound and ta-daaa... a star is born...

Jjav829
12-06-2007, 11:52 AM
“Well, they’re in the back-end of the rotation now, but in 29 other rooms around the building right here these are two guys that everyone would want, and most people in the industry view as top-of-the-rotation guys. Our pitching is not going to be a problem this year. We’ll be fine in that area.’’:roflmao: :roflmao:

Yep, I can just imagine Theo Epstein sitting in his hotel thinking, "Beckett, Schilling, Dice-K, Lester, Buccholz...the chance to acquire Johan. That's all well and good, but what this team really needs is some Gavin Floyd in our rotation."

I'm sure Tony Reagins just isn't quite satisfied with Lackey, Escobar, Weaver, Garland and Santana/Saunders. Nope, what he thinks the Angels really need to get over the top is Gavin Floyd.

I bet Brian Cashman sits around all day having conversations with Hank Steinbrenner about how the Yankees really need to improve their rotation. Some foolish people think these conversations have to do with efforts to acquire pitchers such as Johan Santana and Dan Haren. Nonsense. Cashman and Steinbrenner know the key to a World Series lies in the right arm of one Gavin Floyd.

When Dave Dombrowski acquired Cabrera and Willis the other day, he still wasn't satisfied. Sure, Verlander, Bonderman, Willis, Rogers and Robertson looks good on paper. But it's missing something. Something that will strike fear into the hearts of opposing. That something, or should I say someone, is Gavin Floyd.

Meanwhile, teams such as the Royals, Nationals, Pirates and Rays all are resigned to the fact that they likely won't contend next year...unless they can find a way to steal Gavin Floyd away from the Sox.

Take solace, Sox fans. No Hunter? No Cabrera? No problem. We have ourselves one hot commodity here. Sleep easy tonight knowing that Gavin Floyd will wear a White Sox uniform next season.

chisoxmike
12-06-2007, 11:54 AM
:roflmao: :roflmao:

Yep, I can just imagine Theo Epstein sitting in his hotel thinking, "Beckett, Schilling, Dice-K, Lester, Buccholz...the chance to acquire Johan. That's all well and good, but what this team really needs is some Gavin Floyd in our rotation."

I'm sure Tony Reagins just isn't quite satisfied with Lackey, Escobar, Weaver, Garland and Santana/Saunders. Nope, what he thinks the Angels really need to get over the top is Gavin Floyd.

I bet Brian Cashman sits around all day having conversations with Hank Steinbrenner about how the Yankees really need to improve their rotation. Some foolish people think these conversations have to do with efforts to acquire pitchers such as Johan Santana and Dan Haren. Nonsense. Cashman and Steinbrenner know the key to a World Series lies in the right arm of one Gavin Floyd.

When Dave Dombrowski acquired Cabrera and Willis the other day, he still wasn't satisfied. Sure, Verlander, Bonderman, Willis, Rogers and Robertson looks good on paper. But it's missing something. Something that will strike fear into the hearts of opposing. That something, or should I say someone, is Gavin Floyd.

Meanwhile, teams such as the Royals, Nationals, Pirates and Rays all are resigned to the fact that they likely won't contend next year...unless they can find a way to steal Gavin Floyd away from the Sox.

Take solace, Sox fans. No Hunter? No Cabrera? No problem. We have ourselves one hot commodity here. Sleep easy tonight knowing that Gavin Floyd will wear a White Sox uniform next season.

:rolling: :rolling:

Excellent.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 11:54 AM
I think this fanbase sucks moreso now than ever before. It used to be a smaller crowd, but one that was truly baseball saavy. I think the new Sox fans know less than before, and think they know more than ever.

I know quite a bit about baseball, and it seems to me your expectations for the 2008 season are quite high.

I was right there every year saying the Sox had a shot. I thought we could have won it in 2003 and 2004 and was not surprised when we won it in 05. I was wary of the wear on the pitchers in 06, but expected us to win it. I even thought we had a shot in 07 because I thought those young arms made up a good bullpen (stupid me).

I do not think we have any sort of a chance to contend this year due to the fact that the top 2 teams are better than they ever have been and the pieces aren't out there for us to close the gap.

If that makes me a "fan that sucks" in your book, then I'm glad your book is one that no intelligent baseball fans are reading...

jabrch
12-06-2007, 11:55 AM
The joy and curse of living in the Internet age of instant access.

Everyone is free to look up any stats/opinions/information they choose and then find some place to regurgitate it as fact and look like a genius. Throw in some cheapo analysis of your own, shout down whoever disagrees with you, back up your shouting with more crappy elementary level analysis based on logic that appears to be sound and ta-daaa... a star is born...


Very well said VC...

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 11:55 AM
:roflmao: :roflmao:

Yep, I can just imagine Theo Epstein sitting in his hotel thinking, "Beckett, Schilling, Dice-K, Lester, Buccholz...the chance to acquire Johan. That's all well and good, but what this team really needs is some Gavin Floyd in our rotation."

I'm sure Tony Reagins just isn't quite satisfied with Lackey, Escobar, Weaver, Garland and Santana/Saunders. Nope, what he thinks the Angels really need to get over the top is Gavin Floyd.

I bet Brian Cashman sits around all day having conversations with Hank Steinbrenner about how the Yankees really need to improve their rotation. Some foolish people think these conversations have to do with efforts to acquire pitchers such as Johan Santana and Dan Haren. Nonsense. Cashman and Steinbrenner know the key to a World Series lies in the right arm of one Gavin Floyd.

When Dave Dombrowski acquired Cabrera and Willis the other day, he still wasn't satisfied. Sure, Verlander, Bonderman, Willis, Rogers and Robertson looks good on paper. But it's missing something. Something that will strike fear into the hearts of opposing. That something, or should I say someone, is Gavin Floyd.

Meanwhile, teams such as the Royals, Nationals, Pirates and Rays all are resigned to the fact that they likely won't contend next year...unless they can find a way to steal Gavin Floyd away from the Sox.

Take solace, Sox fans. No Hunter? No Cabrera? No problem. We have ourselves one hot commodity here. Sleep easy tonight knowing that Gavin Floyd will wear a White Sox uniform next season.

:rolling:

Yeah, as silly as "the tigers are chasing us" comment was, this one is the one that really took the cake

chisoxmike
12-06-2007, 11:58 AM
I think this fanbase sucks moreso now than ever before. It used to be a smaller crowd, but one that was truly baseball saavy. I think the new Sox fans know less than before, and think they know more than ever.

On the same note, (not talking about you or anything) I've never seen a bunch of self-proclaimed 'know it alls' in a fan base. This bow down to me and 'everything I say is truth' attitude that a lot of people on here seem to have is more annoying, to me at least, than "the stupid people." Most fans are "stupid."

hi im skot
12-06-2007, 11:59 AM
I am absolutely disgusted by the reaction of our fanbase after the Cabrera/Willis trade.

Same here. I'm bummed, but c'mon...

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 12:02 PM
What really bothers me is the arguments that people are throwing out to counter so-called "dark clouds".

It would be one thing if there were an argument to be made for why we should expect to contend.

However

-"have some faith"
-"anything could happen"
-"teams that look good on paper aren't always good"
-"there's still 5 months left"
and
-"that's why they play the games"

aren't legitimate arguments. "have some faith" and "anything could happen" doesn't explain how we're going to outperform our 2007 numbers by 20 games.

"teams that look good on paper aren't always good" doesn't explain how the Tigers or Indians are any worse than the teams they fielded last year that beat us in our division by 18-24 games

"there's still 5 months left" doesn't explain how with extremely limited resources we plan on filling 4-6 significant holes on the roster, especially with a very very limited FA market and almost NO trade prospects

"that's why they play the games" doesn't explain much of anything

spawn
12-06-2007, 12:04 PM
As am I. But I am not surprised. I think it's fair to say that this fanbase will never be happy. And I mean never.
Truer words were never spoken.

spiffie
12-06-2007, 12:09 PM
What really bothers me is the arguments that people are throwing out to counter so-called "dark clouds".

It would be one thing if there were an argument to be made for why we should expect to contend.

However

-"have some faith"
-"anything could happen"
-"teams that look good on paper aren't always good"
-"there's still 5 months left"
and
-"that's why they play the games"

aren't legitimate arguments. "have some faith" and "anything could happen" doesn't explain how we're going to outperform our 2007 numbers by 20 games.

"teams that look good on paper aren't always good" doesn't explain how the Tigers or Indians are any worse than the teams they fielded last year that beat us in our division by 18-24 games

"there's still 5 months left" doesn't explain how with extremely limited resources we plan on filling 4-6 significant holes on the roster, especially with a very very limited FA market and almost NO trade prospects

"that's why they play the games" doesn't explain much of anything
It's posts like this that just prove jabrch and Voodoo's point. I mean you could have posted something meaningful like "We were good in 2005, so quit *****ing until the season starts!" or "what does anyone really know about baseball?" Instead you decided to try and use logic and its even more evil cousin rational thought when thinking about the Sox. Burning at the stake can be the only proper punishment.

CubKilla
12-06-2007, 12:09 PM
I think it's fair to say that this fanbase will never be happy. And I mean never.

Gimme a break. When KW gives the fanbase something to be happy about, the majority of the fanbase will be happy. An on the decline Linebrink (OVERPAID) with a no-trade clause and a trade for Carlos Quentin doesn't exactly knock my socks off.

Amazing..... all the "overpaid" talk around these boards yet those that utter the word have said nary a word about Linebrink being OVERPAID. Go figure.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 12:10 PM
It's posts like this that just prove jabrch and Voodoo's point. I mean you could have posted something meaningful like "We were good in 2005, so quit *****ing until the season starts!" or "what does anyone really know about baseball?" Instead you decided to try and use logic and its even more evil cousin rational thought when thinking about the Sox. Burning at the stake can be the only proper punishment.

I guess I'm just one of these ****ty bandwagon Sox fans...

...I mean, look at my join date!!

JB98
12-06-2007, 12:11 PM
If 29 other clubs would love to have Gavin Floyd, I'd be interested in trading him to one of those clubs for a quality outfielder and some bullpen help. :cool:

voodoochile
12-06-2007, 12:11 PM
It's posts like this that just prove jabrch and Voodoo's point. I mean you could have posted something meaningful like "We were good in 2005, so quit *****ing until the season starts!" or "what does anyone really know about baseball?" Instead you decided to try and use logic and its even more evil cousin rational thought when thinking about the Sox. Burning at the stake can be the only proper punishment.

I actually agree with his post. Those aren't reasons why the Sox will be better this season, they are merely a fan's hope expressed. It doesn't mean that any of them can't be true though either.

chisoxmike
12-06-2007, 12:12 PM
If 29 other clubs would love to have Gavin Floyd, I'd be interested in trading him to one of those clubs for a quality outfielder and some bullpen help. :cool:

I'll pack his bags and buy his plane ticket.:supernana:

voodoochile
12-06-2007, 12:12 PM
I guess I'm just one of these ****ty bandwagon Sox fans...

...I mean, look at my join date!!

Whiner...

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 12:13 PM
Whiner...


:whiner:<----Quaye

:D:

voodoochile
12-06-2007, 12:14 PM
Gimme a break. When KW gives the fanbase something to be happy about, the majority of the fanbase will be happy. An on the decline Linebrink (OVERPAID) with a no-trade clause and a trade for Carlos Quentin doesn't exactly knock my socks off.

Amazing..... all the "overpaid" talk around these boards yet those that utter the word have said nary a word about Linebrink being OVERPAID. Go figure.

At the present market value of pitching he probably isn't. Of course overpaid is an opinion statement and has nothing to do with the free market system at work.

MCHSoxFan
12-06-2007, 12:22 PM
If people had no clue that the Sox were trying to get Miggy or Toriiiiiii, most folks around here would probably be pleased.

That is my feeling EXACTLY. All of that talk from KW and rumors from the press/media got people really, really excited. And when it did NOT happen, people were :angry:.

DickAllen72
12-06-2007, 04:35 PM
Oh BS. He came out last night and complained about executives spreading the White Sox plans. Obviously he's talking. He text messages players telling them "they're next" and he doesn't sign him. Do you expect Torii to keep his big mouth shut?

Two words for you :"Big Fish."
He gave Hunter the best offer on the table as of that Wednesday and Hunter himself said that he was almost certain he was going to sign with the Sox. Then, the Angels come and make a ridiculous offer to Hunter that blows everyone else away. Can't blame KW for that one, unless you think he should have offered Hunter over $18M per year for five years.

In the case of Cabrera, Kenny stayed under the radar, was never reported as a major player for him (until an hour or so before the trade) and never said anything publicly about him. He made the Marlins a very good offer for Cabrera and then the Tigers swooped in, agreed to take both Cabrera and Willis, and blew the Sox offer out of the water with 6 good prospects. Can you blame Kenny for that one?

I suspect Kenny is pissed that after the details of his offers were leaked out and reporters and fans began to declare that these deals will happen, when they fell through the same people who were all excited began ripping Kenny as incompetent or sleeping on the job as if it were his fault that the deals didn't happen.

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 04:38 PM
I know quite a bit about baseball, and it seems to me your expectations for the 2008 season are quite high.

I was right there every year saying the Sox had a shot. I thought we could have won it in 2003 and 2004 and was not surprised when we won it in 05. I was wary of the wear on the pitchers in 06, but expected us to win it. I even thought we had a shot in 07 because I thought those young arms made up a good bullpen (stupid me).

I do not think we have any sort of a chance to contend this year due to the fact that the top 2 teams are better than they ever have been and the pieces aren't out there for us to close the gap.

If that makes me a "fan that sucks" in your book, then I'm glad your book is one that no intelligent baseball fans are reading...

As others pointed out, you use logic and make reasoned arguments. Hell, I am not exactly thrilled with the state of the White Sox right now, but I also do not go over the deep end every other day of the week and rant and rave about how the entire organization is a worthless piece of crap.

Sadly, the majority of the posters here do just that. It's disheartening b/c it makes it difficult to actually discuss baseball. When you have to weed through the 80% of posts in the baseball threads that are just pure nonsense, it gets tiresome.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 04:41 PM
He gave Hunter the best offer on the table as of that Wednesday and Hunter himself said that he was almost certain he was going to sign with the Sox. Then, the Angels come and make a ridiculous offer to Hunter that blows everyone else away. Can't blame KW for that one, unless you think he should have offered Hunter over $18M per year for five years.

Even if Kenny would have offered Hunter the 18m or slightly more, who's to say that Hunter would have chosen to go to the weaker (by far) team? The Angels, by far the best team in the Hunter sweepstakes, made him the highest offer. You can't put that on Kenny


In the case of Cabrera, Kenny stayed under the radar, was never reported as a major player for him (until an hour or so before the trade) and never said anything publicly about him. He made the Marlins a very good offer for Cabrera and then the Tigers swooped in, agreed to take both Cabrera and Willis, and blew the Sox offer out of the water with 6 good prospects. Can you blame Kenny for that one?

Again, Kenny can't be blamed--he just didn't have the players. However, the questions arises: why didn't he have the players?


I suspect Kenny is pissed that after the details of his offers were leaked out and reporters and fans began to declare that these deals will happen, when they fell through the same people who were all excited began ripping Kenny as incompetent or sleeping on the job as if it were his fault that the deals didn't happen.

Kenny is not incompetent or sleeping on the job--he knows what he's doing. He just needs to stop saying preposterous things about our team that insult the fanbase's intelligence

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 04:42 PM
As others pointed out, you use logic and make reasoned arguments. Hell, I am not exactly thrilled with the state of the White Sox right now, but I also do not go over the deep end every other day of the week and rant and rave about how the entire organization is a worthless piece of crap.

Sadly, the majority of the posters here do just that. It's disheartening b/c it makes it difficult to actually discuss baseball. When you have to weed through the 80% of posts in the baseball threads that are just pure nonsense, it gets tiresome.


You get that on both sides of the coin...it's one thing to have high hopes for the team (even though, in my opinion, there's very little reason to). But to insist that those who expect this team to be on the outskirts of the playoff race are "pants-pissing dark clouds" because

"it's still December!!!!"
or
"they don't play games on paper!!!!"

is the flipside of the "Kenny sucks! This organization is doomed!" coin.

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 04:46 PM
You get that on both sides of the coin...it's one thing to have high hopes for the team (even though, in my opinion, there's very little reason to). But to insist that those who expect this team to be on the outskirts of the playoff race are "pants-pissing dark clouds" because

"it's still December!!!!"
or
"they don't play games on paper!!!!"

is the flipside of the "Kenny sucks! This organization is doomed!" coin.

You're right, it does go both ways. As it stands now, I'd say the odds are stacked pretty far against us for making the playoffs. But I do think, as it stands now, this team will be better than last year's team. And I also think there are still 1-2 significant moves left this winter with another 1-2 minor moves. If those go well, it would not shock the hell out of me if we made the playoffs.

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 04:47 PM
Even if Kenny would have offered Hunter the 18m or slightly more, who's to say that Hunter would have chosen to go to the weaker (by far) team? The Angels, by far the best team in the Hunter sweepstakes, made him the highest offer. You can't put that on Kenny





The simple fact that Toriiiiii didn't even give the Sox a chance to match the Angels' offer showed he was going there no matter what. As with Cabrera, nothing KW could have done would have changed the outcome.

The only blame I lay on KW for the Cabrera "situation" is that our farm system is weak. And that falls on him.

spiffie
12-06-2007, 04:51 PM
You're right, it does go both ways. As it stands now, I'd say the odds are stacked pretty far against us for making the playoffs. But I do think, as it stands now, this team will be better than last year's team. And I also think there are still 1-2 significant moves left this winter with another 1-2 minor moves. If those go well, it would not shock the hell out of me if we made the playoffs.
I'm curious, what sort of major moves, within the realm of reasonable expectation, do you think the Sox could make that would dramatically improve the team? Everyone keeps saying "be patient, its only December" and that's fine if you assume that something else can be done. Who would you say we have a realistic shot of acquiring who dramatically changes something that you admit right now is not looking very likely to succeed? Who is out there that can change the entire terrain of the AL Central by his acquisition?

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 04:54 PM
You're right, it does go both ways. As it stands now, I'd say the odds are stacked pretty far against us for making the playoffs. But I do think, as it stands now, this team will be better than last year's team. And I also think there are still 1-2 significant moves left this winter with another 1-2 minor moves. If those go well, it would not shock the hell out of me if we made the playoffs.

I'm really interested who the second significant move (assuming we get one of the 2 CF's left) and the 2 minor moves are based on the FA pool available...

maybe i'm missing someone

DickAllen72
12-06-2007, 04:55 PM
I'm curious, what sort of major moves, within the realm of reasonable expectation, do you think the Sox could make that would dramatically improve the team? Everyone keeps saying "be patient, its only December" and that's fine if you assume that something else can be done. Who would you say we have a realistic shot of acquiring who dramatically changes something that you admit right now is not looking very likely to succeed? Who is out there that can change the entire terrain of the AL Central by his acquisition?
Sign Fukudome.

Put together a package to trade to the Orioles in exchange for Roberts and Bedard.

Shore up the bullpen with the remaining pieces.

rowand33
12-06-2007, 04:56 PM
Sign Fukudome.

Put together a package to trade to the Orioles in exchange for Roberts and Bedard.

Shore up the bullpen with the remaining pieces.

Please tell me what players we have that can be used to acquire one of these players, let alone both.

DickAllen72
12-06-2007, 04:58 PM
Please tell me what players we have that can be used to acquire one of these players, let alone both.
Richar, Konerko and Gio?

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 04:59 PM
I'm really interested who the second significant move (assuming we get one of the 2 CF's left) and the 2 minor moves are based on the FA pool available...

maybe i'm missing someone

I'd expect us to sign a CF. I also expect that CF to be better than what we had out there last year. So that makes the 2008 team better. As for the 2nd significant move? Honestly, I do not know. Maybe we get another solid/above average bullpen guy. Maybe something shakes out in a trade where we package some good prospects with Crede and get something of value.

As for the minor things, I am talking more about another veteran presence to be the #4 or #5 guy out of the bullpen. Or a solid utility guy. Something along those lines.

Now, if some of the above happens, I'd be fairly pleased. I am a believer that part of what happened last year was Murphy's Law. That's not to say that next year will be all fun and games simply b/c it's a new year. But I think that the offensive woes experienced by a lot of guys will not be there (aka revert to career norms). Combine that with Cabrera and what should be a better bullpen and things are looking up.

The biggest question mark, for me, is the rotation. It's a LOT to expect Contreras to return to #3 quality and Danks to pitch an entire year like he did in the first half.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 05:00 PM
Sign Fukudome.

That's one hole. Leaving 3-5 to fill


Put together a package to trade to the Orioles in exchange for Roberts and Bedard.

Do you have any idea what it will take to get Bedard?

From Jason Stark:



So far, though, several teams that have asked about Bedard have come away saying they don't see how any team can meet an asking price that eclipses what the Twins want for Santana -- i.e., at least four young, big-time players.

We don't have 4 young big-time players as the Cabrera deal shows. And even if you count Fields, Danks, and Floyd, that just opens 3 holes to plug one.

two reports of offers for Bedard:

Mets submitted an offer to the Orioles for Bedard of Heilman, Humber and Gomez. The Orioles scoffed.

radio report in Baltimore...

Dodgers get: Erik Bedard
Orioles get: Matt Kemp and Jonathan Broxton

We aren't getting him.

See the Cubs going after Roberts thread for an estimation what Roberts is perceived to be worth...

We just don't have to pieces to put together trades for these players. MAYBE Roberts.


Shore up the bullpen with the remaining pieces.

What will remain? What even remains at the moment?

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 05:01 PM
I'd expect us to sign a CF. I also expect that CF to be better than what we had out there last year. So that makes the 2008 team better. As for the 2nd significant move? Honestly, I do not know. Maybe we get another solid/above average bullpen guy. Maybe something shakes out in a trade where we package some good prospect with Crede and get something of value.

As for the minor things, I am talking more about another veteran presence to be the #4 or #5 guy out of the bullpen. Or a solid utility guy. Something along those lines.

Now, if some of the above happens, I'd be fairly pleased. I am a believer that part of what happened last year was Murphy's Law. That's not to say that next year will be all fun and games simply b/c it's a new year. But I think that the offensive woes experiences by a lot of guys will not be there (aka revert to career norms). Combine that with Cabrera and what should be a better bullpen and things are looking up.

The biggest question mark, for me, is the rotation. It's a LOT to expect Contreras to return to #3 quality and Danks to pitch an entire year like he did in the first half.

We will not be as bad as last year. I can guarantee that...especially considering Kenny WILL get a CF and a few more pitchers.

However, we have way too far to go to catch Detroit and Cleveland, especially considering the available players out there...

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 05:07 PM
We will not be as bad as last year. I can guarantee that...especially considering Kenny WILL get a CF and a few more pitchers.

However, we have way too far to go to catch Detroit and Cleveland, especially considering the available players out there...

That may very well be true. But I don't think the gap is massive. Last year we were 16 games worse than Detroit and 26 games worse than Cleveland. Sure, that is a lot of ground to make up.

But if you assume that last year's team actually played 6-10 games below what we'd expect (and would see this year without any changes) and factor in the additions of Cabrera, CF, Linebrink, and maybe another bullpen change, you should see meaningful improvement. The big question mark is, of course, the rotation.

Detroit has obviously done a LOT this winter to improve their team. But what have the Indians done? They are relying on young guys improving, which is great. But will Captain Cheeseburger actually be better than he was last year? Will their bullpen be mostly lights out again? Will Borowski catch lightning in a bottle for another year?

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 05:09 PM
That may very well be true. But I don't think the gap is massive. Last year we were 16 games worse than Detroit and 26 games worse than Cleveland. Sure, that is a lot of ground to make up.

But if you assume that last year's team actually played 6-10 games below what we'd expect (and would see this year without any changes) and factor in the additions of Cabrera, CF, Linebrink, and maybe another bullpen change, you should see meaningful improvement. The big question mark is, of course, the rotation.

Detroit has obviously done a LOT this winter to improve their team. But what have the Indians done? They are relying on young guys improving, which is great. But will Captain Cheeseburger actually be better than he was last year? Will their bullpen be mostly lights out again? Will Borowski catch lightning in a bottle for another year?

We also downgrade from Garland to Floyd, so factor that in with your upgrades...

DickAllen72
12-06-2007, 05:11 PM
That's one hole. Leaving 3-5 to fill



Do you have any idea what it will take to get Bedard?

We don't have 4 young big-time players as the Cabrera deal shows. And even if you count Fields, Danks, and Floyd, that just opens 3 holes to plug one.



I believe Steve Stone today mentioned that the Orioles are asking for young players and pitching so that they can trade for a "big hitter." Well if that's true, Konerko may qualify as the "big hitter" they seek. They replace Roberts with Richar, replace Bedard with Gio/Danks, and add Konerko.

I don't know if they'd do it, but if Stone's analysis of what they are looking for is correct, it seems that it would make some sense.

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 05:11 PM
We also downgrade from Garland to Floyd, so factor that in with your upgrades...

Agreed. That's why I said the rotation is a huge question mark. Essentially, what I am saying is that if we make the requisite 3-4 moves I talked about, then the crucial question is our rotation. If it sucks or is only average, then hello second division. If it's above average, we compete.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 05:30 PM
I believe Steve Stone today mentioned that the Orioles are asking for young players and pitching so that they can trade for a "big hitter." Well if that's true, Konerko may qualify as the "big hitter" they seek. They replace Roberts with Richar, replace Bedard with Gio/Danks, and add Konerko.

I don't know if they'd do it, but if Stone's analysis of what they are looking for is correct, it seems that it would make some sense.

I don't know if a 40 HR guy is the big hitter they're looking for, but it would be awesome if he were.

If Gio/Richar/Konerko brought Bedard/Roberts not only would the season look like we'd have some hope of contention, but Kenny would also be a ****ing miracle worker.

I just don't see it though

A. Cavatica
12-06-2007, 05:32 PM
Richar, Konerko and Gio?

Not enough. Bedard is worth considerably more than Konerko, and Richar came for a high-A prospect and didn't exactly set the world on fire.

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 05:36 PM
I don't know if a 40 HR guy is the big hitter they're looking for, but it would be awesome if he were.

If Gio/Richar/Konerko brought Bedard/Roberts not only would the season look like we'd have some hope of contention, but Kenny would also be a ****ing miracle worker.

I just don't see it though

Now, this is where I lay blame on KW for our farm system. No way the O's accept that trade. They'd probably want two more prospects on the level of Gio or a step below. And if we had them, I'd ship them away to Baltimore.

Having Bedard makes the rotation go from a huge question mark to at least league average (reasonable worst case scenario) and possibly top three in the league. It also improves the line-up quite a bit (depending on PK's replacement). But it's a pipe dream.

Lip Man 1
12-06-2007, 05:55 PM
Especially after the bullpen fiasco in 2007 I honestly hope this quote from Kenny to Scott Merkin of White Sox.com doesn't wind up coming back to haunt him:

"Our pitching is not going to be a problem this year."

Lip

JB98
12-06-2007, 05:55 PM
Especially after the bullpen fiasco in 2007 I honestly hope this quote from Kenny to Scott Merkin of White Sox.com doesn't wind up coming back to haunt him:

"Our pitching is not going to be a problem this year."

Lip

Save that quote. I'm actually more worried about the pitching staff than I am about the lineup. And I'm worried about the lineup.

TheVulture
12-06-2007, 06:07 PM
As am I. But I am not surprised. I think it's fair to say that this fanbase will never be happy. And I mean never.

Totally. When will a fanbase ever be happy if not when coming off a 90 loss season and, having been led by team management to believe they were re-loading to contend next year, are instead looking at a team that appears to be content to go into the season with two quality starting pitchers? After spending two years watching an elite pitching staff erode, a great defense decline and a deep bench dissiminate? Face it, the last year and a half, KW has really screwed the pooch. Why should I be happy about it?

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 06:11 PM
Totally. When will a fanbase ever be happy if not when coming off a 90 loss season and, having been led by team management to believe they were re-loading to contend next year, are instead looking at a team that appears to be content to go into the season with two quality starting pitchers? After spending two years watching an elite pitching staff erode, a great defense decline and a deep bench dissiminate? Face it, the last year and a half, KW has really screwed the pooch. Why should I be happy about it?

I suggest you re-read what I posted.

JB98
12-06-2007, 06:19 PM
Totally. When will a fanbase ever be happy if not when coming off a 90 loss season and, having been led by team management to believe they were re-loading to contend next year, are instead looking at a team that appears to be content to go into the season with two quality starting pitchers? After spending two years watching an elite pitching staff erode, a great defense decline and a deep bench dissiminate? Face it, the last year and a half, KW has really screwed the pooch. Why should I be happy about it?

Basically, what I think is going on here is overreaction, and then overreaction to the overreaction. Things are going poorly for the Sox. Some are going ape****, declaring 2008 over and calling for the start of a rebuilding project. Those people are being assailed by a group that claims Sox fans are generally a bunch of unhappy, petulant *******s. I don't agree with either.

From my perspective, I'm really not happy with where we're at right now. But you can't declare that all hope is lost the first week of December. Hopefully, things are going to turn.

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 06:26 PM
Those people are being assailed by a group that claims Sox fans are generally a bunch of unhappy, petulant *******s.

From what I've seen at WSI over the last few years, it seems to me many Sox fans are just that.

voodoochile
12-06-2007, 06:31 PM
Basically, what I think is going on here is overreaction, and then overreaction to the overreaction. Things are going poorly for the Sox. Some are going ape****, declaring 2008 over and calling for the start of a rebuilding project. Those people are being assailed by a group that claims Sox fans are generally a bunch of unhappy, petulant *******s. I don't agree with either.

From my perspective, I'm really not happy with where we're at right now. But you can't declare that all hope is lost the first week of December. Hopefully, things are going to turn.

Hey, I'm not jumping up and down for joy either, and I don't see many people who are, but I do see a bunch of really noisy annoying folks going the other way and that ticks me off no end.

There's a poll up in the Roadhouse asking if KW should be fired for cripes sake...:?:

JB98
12-06-2007, 06:34 PM
From what I've seen at WSI over the last few years, it seems to me many Sox fans are just that.

Sure there are some. I'm just suggesting they are a vocal minority. I've been critical of KW, because I think he deserves *some* criticism. Not to the extent that some are criticizing, but to a point, it's warranted. I just take exception to some (not necessarily you specifically, ilsox) who are contending Sox fans are evil people because we don't give KW a 100 percent approval rating.

JB98
12-06-2007, 06:34 PM
Hey, I'm not jumping up and down for joy either, and I don't see many people who are, but I do see a bunch of really noisy annoying folks going the other way and that ticks me off no end.

There's a poll up in the Roadhouse asking if KW should be fired for cripes sake...:?:

That's over the top, I agree.

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 06:39 PM
Sure there are some. I'm just suggesting they are a vocal minority. I've been critical of KW, because I think he deserves *some* criticism. Not to the extent that some are criticizing, but to a point, it's warranted. I just take exception to some (not necessarily you specifically, ilsox) who are contending Sox fans are evil people because we don't give KW a 100 percent approval rating.
I mostly agree. Though I'd say I think the % of "evil" Sox fans is higher than what you would estimate. And they sure are vocal, which makes them look annoying as hell.

The ironic thing I find in all of this is that many in the vocal minority wax poetic about how KW's words to the press make the White Sox organization look clueless, classless, etc. Yet those same people do not realize that they make Sox fans look like complete idiots when they open their mouths.

Jjav829
12-06-2007, 06:41 PM
Save that quote. I'm actually more worried about the pitching staff than I am about the lineup. And I'm worried about the lineup.

Ditto. If I had to bet on either Thome, Dye and Konerko bouncing back, or Javier Vazquez replicating his 07 success, I'd bet on the former. Vazquez is my Jermaine Dye of this offseason. Contreras has had two good halves in his career. Gavin Floyd blows.

Buehrle is a damn good pitcher. And I think Danks will improve and has a nice future ahead of him. Overall, this pitching staff doesn't exactly stand out.

JB98
12-06-2007, 06:46 PM
Ditto. If I had to bet on either Thome, Dye and Konerko bouncing back, or Javier Vazquez replicating his 07 success, I'd bet on the former. Vazquez is my Jermaine Dye of this offseason. Contreras has had two good halves in his career. Gavin Floyd blows.

Buehrle is a damn good pitcher. And I think Danks will improve and has a nice future ahead of him. Overall, this pitching staff doesn't exactly stand out.

Basically, here's what we need: 2005 Contreras, 2006 MacDougal, 2006 Thornton, 2006 Linebrink, 2007 Vazquez, Buehrle being Buehrle, Jenks being Jenks, plus Floyd and Danks pitching .500 ball and keeping us in most of their starts.

If all that happens, we have a shot at the playoffs. Could it happen? Sure. But my guess is about half of those things will happen. Half of them won't.

JB98
12-06-2007, 06:49 PM
I mostly agree. Though I'd say I think the % of "evil" Sox fans is higher than what you would estimate. And they sure are vocal, which makes them look annoying as hell.

The ironic thing I find in all of this is that many in the vocal minority wax poetic about how KW's words to the press make the White Sox organization look clueless, classless, etc. Yet those same people do not realize that they make Sox fans look like complete idiots when they open their mouths.

I think KW makes himself look bad with his words to the press. I don't know about the organization as a whole. Most Sox fans I know are chuckling about the comment that "29 other teams" want Gavin Floyd. KW says some stuff that is done right silly, but I'm more concerned with his job performance. Hell, Ozzie talks out his ass all the time, but I still think he's a good manager.

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 07:12 PM
I think KW makes himself look bad with his words to the press. I don't know about the organization as a whole. Most Sox fans I know are chuckling about the comment that "29 other teams" want Gavin Floyd. KW says some stuff that is done right silly, but I'm more concerned with his job performance. Hell, Ozzie talks out his ass all the time, but I still think he's a good manager.

I don't pay much attention to anything Ozzie or KW says to the media. And when I do pay attention to it, I rarely take it as anything more than them just ****ing around with a bunch of idiots who have probably never put in an honest day's work in their lives (aka the vast majority, but not all, of the journalists in this town).

JB98
12-06-2007, 07:17 PM
I don't pay much attention to anything Ozzie or KW says to the media. And when I do pay attention to it, I rarely take it as anything more than them just ****ing around with a bunch of idiots who have probably never put in an honest day's work in their lives (aka the vast majority, but not all, of the journalists in this town).

Take my word for it, journalism is a crap job. And beat reporters have the ****tiest detail of all.

Mohoney
12-06-2007, 07:22 PM
I don't know why, but I really think that Gavin Floyd is going to do well next year with 14 wins and an ERA in the low 4s.

At the end of the year, he looked like he was starting to improve his control problems in flashes, and I think he's going to take the next step and start throwing his curve for strikes.

JB98
12-06-2007, 07:27 PM
I don't know why, but I really think that Gavin Floyd is going to do well next year with 14 wins and an ERA in the low 4s.

At the end of the year, he looked like he was starting to improve his control problems in flashes, and I think he's going to take the next step and start throwing his curve for strikes.

Sure hope you are correct.

jabrch
12-06-2007, 07:27 PM
From what I've seen at WSI over the last few years, it seems to me many Sox fans are just that.

I never remember the majority of Sox fans in that light before last year...

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 07:59 PM
I never remember the majority of Sox fans in that light before last year...

My main exposure to large amounts of Sox fans talking about the team is the internet. I have been signed up at WSI for almost 5 years now and before that lurked (back to when the big shift from the troll board happened, to Rivals, etc). And with the increase in members that has naturally occurred, there has been a major swing from logical, well-thought out arguments to off the cuff, knee-jerk reactions.

One day it's all sunny and the next it is dark as hell. There are very few people, IMO, that hold the middle ground of making sensible arguments, no matter what side of the issue they stand for. Instead we get folks saying the team will not compete for 2-3 years. Or we are told by numerous brilliant internet GMs that they could manage a baseball team better than KW. Finally, we get folks who claim they know the intricate details of the White Sox's finances. It all would be quite humorous if these people weren't dead serious and more common by the day.

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 08:03 PM
Take my word for it, journalism is a crap job. And beat reporters have the ****tiest detail of all.

I'm not saying they don't work hard, I am literally saying that many of them are not honest. Honesty goes out the window when there is a slim chance to break a story. It's sad really, all of those folks running around without any integrity.

Brian26
12-06-2007, 08:25 PM
And with the increase in members that has naturally occurred, there has been a major swing from logical, well-thought out arguments to off the cuff, knee-jerk reactions.

That's the power of a message board. People don't think before they write.

I've learned to reserve my judgement on big trades. I despised the CLee/Pods-Vizcaino trade when it happened, and it turned out to be the catalyst in a series of moves that built a World Series team.

JB98
12-06-2007, 08:33 PM
I'm not saying they don't work hard, I am literally saying that many of them are not honest. Honesty goes out the window when there is a slim chance to break a story. It's sad really, all of those folks running around without any integrity.

I actually don't blame the beat writers. They take their marching orders from above.

drewcifer
12-06-2007, 08:37 PM
That's the power of a message board. People don't think before they write.

I've learned to reserve my judgement on big trades. I despised the CLee/Pods-Vizcaino trade when it happened, and it turned out to be the catalyst in a series of moves that built a World Series team.

Lots of people forget about how well that one worked out, Brian. And you're not alone in hating it at the time, nor are you for remembering you were wrong for it. I'm on that list too. :wink:

PeoriaSoxFan
12-06-2007, 08:39 PM
Haven't seen it posted yet, but from today's Sun-Times:

http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2007/12/high_praise.html#more

I am not sure when KW will stop being a disappointment... I don't know how much more of this I can take.... Danks was okay last year, but I don't know that he's ready to be a 3 or 4 in a rotation.... Floyd is barely a No. 5....

The quote near the top regarding other executives thinking they are both top of the rotation guys might just show a bit that KW is losing his mind...

I am a huge KW supporter, always have been... But for the first time during his reign as GM, this week has made me have doubts and feel more disappointed in his stances and manuevering than I ever have before...


I could not have said this better myself. Well done. His quotes in today's paper are scary.

JB98
12-06-2007, 08:45 PM
Lots of people forget about how well that one worked out, Brian. And you're not alone in hating it at the time, nor are you for remembering you were wrong for it. I'm on that list too. :wink:

The majority didn't like it. I sure didn't. We were wrong.

champagne030
12-06-2007, 08:50 PM
I don't know why, but I really think that Gavin Floyd is going to do well next year with 14 wins and an ERA in the low 4s.

At the end of the year, he looked like he was starting to improve his control problems in flashes, and I think he's going to take the next step and start throwing his curve for strikes.

A perfect counter-balance to the KW couldn't pick out a prospect if it jumped up and kicked his ass.....

A. Cavatica
12-06-2007, 09:51 PM
I don't know why, but I really think that Gavin Floyd is going to do well next year with 14 wins and an ERA in the low 4s.

At the end of the year, he looked like he was starting to improve his control problems in flashes, and I think he's going to take the next step and start throwing his curve for strikes.

Please use his full nickname when referring to Gavin "Deep Pink" Floyd.

Mohoney
12-06-2007, 10:59 PM
Please use his full nickname when referring to Gavin "Deep Pink" Floyd.

If Uribe would learn to put down the fork once in a while, we wouldn't have needed to trade Garland, but it is what it is.

If we had a good catcher prospect to flip to Florida with the rest of our rumored package, maybe we could have added Cabrera and Willis, but we don't have one.

I'm not saying that Floyd will have better numbers than Garland next year. All I'm saying is that I think he'll hold his own, and will turn the huge upgrade from 2007 Uribe to 2008 Cabrera into a net positive, as will the huge upgrade that Linebrink will provide over piles of poo such as Ryan Bukvich and Dewon Day.

The one thing that Kenny has done this offseason that is beyond comprehension to me is DFAing Heath Phillips and leaving Andy Gonzalez, another pile of poo in his own right, on the roster.

Jurr
12-06-2007, 11:16 PM
My main exposure to large amounts of Sox fans talking about the team is the internet. I have been signed up at WSI for almost 5 years now and before that lurked (back to when the big shift from the troll board happened, to Rivals, etc). And with the increase in members that has naturally occurred, there has been a major swing from logical, well-thought out arguments to off the cuff, knee-jerk reactions.

One day it's all sunny and the next it is dark as hell. There are very few people, IMO, that hold the middle ground of making sensible arguments, no matter what side of the issue they stand for. Instead we get folks saying the team will not compete for 2-3 years. Or we are told by numerous brilliant internet GMs that they could manage a baseball team better than KW. Finally, we get folks who claim they know the intricate details of the White Sox's finances. It all would be quite humorous if these people weren't dead serious and more common by the day.
Amen. I've been really engrossed in the day to day toil of getting my office up and running, and I haven't had the chance to really get onto the site that much.

When I do venture over to WSI, I'm almost overwhelmed by the slew of threads all related to the same topics. It's hard to make any sense of most of the threads due to the fact that they all discuss knee jerk hatred for Kenny Williams and his lack of "impact signings".

Oh well. I guess it's easy to expect the team to become the Yankees after you get the taste of a WS. Well, I remember sitting on this damn message board with the rest of you crazies during the years, saying "I'd trade a WHOLE LOT of b.s. for just one Sox championship."

The Sox are NOT the Yankees. They will never spend 300 million for a roster.
Good ballclubs have to find balance between veterans and younger (or role)players.
For every Manny Ramirez there must be a Kevin Youkilis. For every C.C. Sabathia there must be a Casey Blake. For every Jim Thome there must be a Richar, Danks, or Fields.

Most people don't have the frame of reference to see past their noses. I think most long time die-hard Sox fans (which are some of the smartest baseball fans) can.

fquaye149
12-07-2007, 05:46 AM
Now, this is where I lay blame on KW for our farm system. No way the O's accept that trade. They'd probably want two more prospects on the level of Gio or a step below. And if we had them, I'd ship them away to Baltimore.

Having Bedard makes the rotation go from a huge question mark to at least league average (reasonable worst case scenario) and possibly top three in the league. It also improves the line-up quite a bit (depending on PK's replacement). But it's a pipe dream.

That's exactly my point though--it's going to take landingn a Bedard and Roberts to make this team something that we could even begin to call a contender. We can't do it b/c they're not on the FA market and we don't have anywhere near the pieces to trade for them without tapping into our MLB roster (and creating more holes)

fquaye149
12-07-2007, 05:49 AM
Basically, here's what we need: 2005 Contreras, 2006 MacDougal, 2006 Thornton, 2006 Linebrink, 2007 Vazquez, Buehrle being Buehrle, Jenks being Jenks, plus Floyd and Danks pitching .500 ball and keeping us in most of their starts.

If all that happens, we have a shot at the playoffs. Could it happen? Sure. But my guess is about half of those things will happen. Half of them won't.


Even if that happens, we still have a weak back end of a rotation in a division with two excellent teams. Even if the perfect storm happens, with the roster we have now, we're still in some deep ****....That is to say--even if that perfect storm of goodness happens with our pitching, we're probably still not a better staff than Cleveland's in 08...which is why it's silly to think it's going to happen....

fquaye149
12-07-2007, 05:51 AM
The majority didn't like it. I sure didn't. We were wrong.


I liked it quite a bit. Check the records :wink:

Hitmen77
12-10-2007, 11:59 AM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/cs-071209sox,1,2217524.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

More from Gonzo today about the Sox relying on Danks and Floyd for the #4 and #5 spots in '08. One or both could really blow up in our face in 08, but it'll be a real boost to us if they can live up to their potential.

Question - If the Sox are putting so much stock in these guys, why were one or both of them reportedly part of a deal we offered to the Marlins for Cabrera? If we did manage to land Cabrera, we'd all love his bat in the lineup, but who would we have to fill out our starting rotation?

jabrch
12-10-2007, 12:09 PM
If we did manage to land Cabrera, we'd all love his bat in the lineup, but who would we have to fill out our starting rotation?


Can you imagine the *****ing then? Woe is us - we don't have Gavin Floyd or John Danks...

I'm sure if we could do that, Kenny would either move to the next prospect on the list that he has faith in, or he'd go out and get a veteran starter to sit in the 5th spot.

Hitmen77
12-10-2007, 12:29 PM
Can you imagine the *****ing then? Woe is us - we don't have Gavin Floyd or John Danks...

I'm sure if we could do that, Kenny would either move to the next prospect on the list that he has faith in, or he'd go out and get a veteran starter to sit in the 5th spot.

That makes sense. I know people will complain no matter what, but it just came off as a bit of a disconnect to me how they're saying the Sox are really relying on these specific guys, but yet they both may have been on the verge of being traded.

....and yes, I understand the reality that KW and the Sox aren't going to publicly say that they don't have confidence in Danks and Floyd....and maybe that's the answer to my question right there.

jabrch
12-10-2007, 12:33 PM
That makes sense. I know people will complain no matter what, but it just came off as a bit of a disconnect to me how they're saying the Sox are really relying on these specific guys, but yet they both may have been on the verge of being traded.

....and yes, I understand the reality that KW and the Sox aren't going to publicly say that they don't have confidence in Danks and Floyd....and maybe that's the answer to my question right there.

I think so...It would make sense given history that KW and OG will say one thing that they want the public to hear - regardless of its truth or not. Going into the season, if Danks and Gavin are slotted at #4 and #5, I'd be shocked to hear anything else. That doesn't mean that if an opportunity to improve was there that they'd pass it up. If we pulled the same deal that Detroit made, we'd have lost one of them, but gotten back Willis who (as much as I think he is overrated and won't ever be as good as he was) could slot in the back of the rotation. Also I wouldn't have been surprised if suddenly they said the same things about Broadway or whomever...

The Immigrant
12-10-2007, 12:36 PM
I'm sure if we could do that, Kenny would either move to the next prospect on the list that he has faith in, or he'd go out and get a veteran starter to sit in the 5th spot.

Maybe if that veteran starter was willing to work for churros. Cabrera would have added around $10 million to the team payroll, so unless one of Konerko or Thome were traded I don't see how we could have added another starting pitcher (not to mention an outfielder).

Hitmen77
12-10-2007, 12:39 PM
Maybe if that veteran starter was willing to work for churros. Cabrera would have added around $10 million to the team payroll, so unless one of Konerko or Thome were traded I don't see how we could have added another starting pitcher (not to mention an outfielder).

That might work for acquiring Colon.:tongue:

jabrch
12-10-2007, 12:42 PM
Maybe if that veteran starter was willing to work for churros. Cabrera would have added around $10 million to the team payroll, so unless one of Konerko or Thome were traded I don't see how we could have added another starting pitcher (not to mention an outfielder).

We were prepared to spend a bunch of money on Hunter. We are still looking at Rowand or Fukudome. I'm not sure where we hit a point that KW can't spend -- or where the upper bound on the budget is, but I am not convinced he has hit a financial constraint yet this season.

ChiSoxPatF
12-10-2007, 12:44 PM
Am I missing something here? I know their body of work last year wasn't very impressive, but isn't Danks a 22 year old lefty and Floyd is a 24 year old righty? Hasn't everyone been up in arms about getting younger and trying to compete now and in the future? Aren't Danks and Floyd the kinds of guys the Sox should be looking for instead of signing $12 mil/year, 34 year old, end of the rotation starters?

Can we just give Danks and Floyd a chance to succeed before we run them out of town?! :angry:

I've been critical of Kenny's moves this off-season too, but that doesn't extend to the starting rotation. I, too, would prefer not to be going into the season with two question marks but we can't afford to be blowing $50-75 a year on just our five starters if we want a bullpen AND a lineup as well.

The big market/small market argument is cliche but, regardless of how you feel, we inarguably have financial constraints and we need to start working in younger players to meet these constraints. Why not do it with two kids who are one year removed from being Grade-A, top-flight pitching prospects - both of whom are under 25 years old!?:rolleyes:

spiffie
12-10-2007, 12:56 PM
We were prepared to spend a bunch of money on Hunter. We are still looking at Rowand or Fukudome. I'm not sure where we hit a point that KW can't spend -- or where the upper bound on the budget is, but I am not convinced he has hit a financial constraint yet this season.
I just wonder if there is a single budget number, or a contingent budget number depending on who the player(s) in question would be. If A-Rod had come available would they have made payroll room for him? Would they be willing spend big on Hunter, but decide its not worth that much to spend on Rowand/Fukudome? Would they make a payroll shift to allow them to get M. Cabrera signed long term had he been traded for? I guess I just don't think there's a single number they would spend, but rather that the better the player, the more likely JR would be to allow a payroll bump.

jabrch
12-10-2007, 01:08 PM
I just wonder if there is a single budget number, or a contingent budget number depending on who the player(s) in question would be.

I'm sure you are right that there is no set $ and that it is a case by case basis...

If A-Rod had come available would they have made payroll room for him?

Certainly much more than they would for Hunter, Rowand, etc.

Would they make a payroll shift to allow them to get M. Cabrera signed long term had he been traded for? I guess I just don't think there's a single number they would spend, but rather that the better the player, the more likely JR would be to allow a payroll bump.

I agree - they would surelyevaluate the future finances as a whole, and with some foresight, not just work to one single hard number.

Nellie_Fox
12-10-2007, 01:25 PM
Hasn't everyone been up in arms about getting younger and trying to compete now and in the future? There is no topic raised on this board on which everyone agrees. No matter the topic, people will be in total disagreement.

chisoxmike
12-10-2007, 01:35 PM
There is no topic raised on this board on which everyone agrees. No matter the topic, people will be in total disagreement.

Shall I start a "What's your favorite pizza?" thread? :bandance:

spawn
12-10-2007, 01:44 PM
Shall I start a "What's your favorite pizza?" thread? :bandance:
Lou Malnati's deep dish! :bandance:

chisoxmike
12-10-2007, 01:45 PM
Lou Malnati's deep dish! :bandance:
:putitontheboard

Sargeant79
12-10-2007, 02:06 PM
That makes sense. I know people will complain no matter what, but it just came off as a bit of a disconnect to me how they're saying the Sox are really relying on these specific guys, but yet they both may have been on the verge of being traded.

....and yes, I understand the reality that KW and the Sox aren't going to publicly say that they don't have confidence in Danks and Floyd....and maybe that's the answer to my question right there.

Keeping in mind that you have to give up something to get something...Just because they may have been on the verge of being traded does not mean that the organization has no confidence in Danks and/or Floyd. It just means that another organization may have wanted them and the Sox really liked what they would have gotten back in return.

MCHSoxFan
12-10-2007, 04:16 PM
Am I missing something here? I know their body of work last year wasn't very impressive, but isn't Danks a 22 year old lefty and Floyd is a 24 year old righty? Hasn't everyone been up in arms about getting younger and trying to compete now and in the future? Aren't Danks and Floyd the kinds of guys the Sox should be looking for instead of signing $12 mil/year, 34 year old, end of the rotation starters?

Can we just give Danks and Floyd a chance to succeed before we run them out of town?! :angry:

I've been critical of Kenny's moves this off-season too, but that doesn't extend to the starting rotation. I, too, would prefer not to be going into the season with two question marks but we can't afford to be blowing $50-75 a year on just our five starters if we want a bullpen AND a lineup as well.

The big market/small market argument is cliche but, regardless of how you feel, we inarguably have financial constraints and we need to start working in younger players to meet these constraints. Why not do it with two kids who are one year removed from being Grade-A, top-flight pitching prospects - both of whom are under 25 years old!?:rolleyes:

YEEEEEEEESSSSS!!! Let's get younger. Okay, we will. Now, we are getting a little younger...but people are still complaining. THE SAME PEOPLE WHO WANT THE SOX TO GET YOUNGER!!!!:angry::angry::angry:

gogosox16
12-10-2007, 04:43 PM
YEEEEEEEESSSSS!!! Let's get younger. Okay, we will. Now, we are getting a little younger...but people are still complaining. THE SAME PEOPLE WHO WANT THE SOX TO GET YOUNGER!!!!:angry::angry::angry:
Everyone can't always be happy about what they do even if they suggest the thing the Sox actually do.

Jurr
12-10-2007, 05:04 PM
Everybody seems to want a 1-5 rotation stocked with proven veteran talent. Well, sorry, but that's not how it works nowadays. Not even in 2005 did the Sox enter the season with proven talent. Garland was still embroiled in his bipolar efforts, Contreras absolutely FLOPPED in New York, and El Duque was far from a lock to start 10 games.

Players must have a chance to compete, learn, and break out on their own.
People see Danks and Floyd pitch inconsistently and automatically assume that the Sox are dead because these men are in the rotation. Danks would've had plenty of wins had the Sox given him ANY run support in the first two months. Then, predictably, he hit a wall later in the year.

Floyd's one of those players that has all the talent in the world (ummm...much like Garland), but hasn't had the mental makeup to put it together consistently. He could end up lights out this year, or he could end up being the weakest link out of the fifth spot. With pitchers like Broadway approaching readiness for the big stage, that wouldn't last long.

A few years ago we knew Johan Santana to be that kid in Minnesota that the Sox hung a ton of runs on one Sunday afternoon. Nobody knew who Fausto Carmona was. The list goes on and on. These kids need a chance to play, and that's where the Sox currently are. Put some competent defenders behind these kids and away we go.

TomBradley72
12-10-2007, 05:10 PM
So our #5 starter from 2006 (Vazquez) is now our #2, our #3 Contreras is coming off one of the worst seasons by any White Sox starter in history (10-17, 5.57), our #4 starter Danks was 6-13, 5.50, lost 7 in a row and was shut down for the final two months of the season, and our #5 Floyd has a career record of 8-10, 6.30.

Yep...the rotation is set...no worries here.

Sargeant79
12-10-2007, 05:55 PM
Everybody seems to want a 1-5 rotation stocked with proven veteran talent. Well, sorry, but that's not how it works nowadays. Not even in 2005 did the Sox enter the season with proven talent. Garland was still embroiled in his bipolar efforts, Contreras absolutely FLOPPED in New York, and El Duque was far from a lock to start 10 games.

Players must have a chance to compete, learn, and break out on their own.
People see Danks and Floyd pitch inconsistently and automatically assume that the Sox are dead because these men are in the rotation. Danks would've had plenty of wins had the Sox given him ANY run support in the first two months. Then, predictably, he hit a wall later in the year.

Floyd's one of those players that has all the talent in the world (ummm...much like Garland), but hasn't had the mental makeup to put it together consistently. He could end up lights out this year, or he could end up being the weakest link out of the fifth spot. With pitchers like Broadway approaching readiness for the big stage, that wouldn't last long.

A few years ago we knew Johan Santana to be that kid in Minnesota that the Sox hung a ton of runs on one Sunday afternoon. Nobody knew who Fausto Carmona was. The list goes on and on. These kids need a chance to play, and that's where the Sox currently are. Put some competent defenders behind these kids and away we go.

Excellent post. Right on the money.

SoxxoS
12-10-2007, 08:25 PM
I think Gio Gonzalez is the best white sox pitching prospect since B-Mac, and maybe even Rauch pre-injury. Gio's stuff is electric....and many guys have alleviated the size concern that used to be around (Oswalt, Santana is no giant, Bedard...Rich Harden

Jurr
12-10-2007, 08:47 PM
I think Gio Gonzalez is the best white sox pitching prospect since Fingernails on a blackboard, and maybe even Rauch pre-injury. Gio's stuff is electric....and many guys have alleviated the size concern that used to be around (Oswalt, Santana is no giant, Bedard...Rich Harden
I don't want to hear about prospects. I want pitchers that can contend for the Cy Young IMMEDIATELY! Overpay for mediocre vets!

kevin57
12-11-2007, 04:49 AM
Players must have a chance to compete, learn, and break out on their own. People see Danks and Floyd pitch inconsistently and automatically assume that the Sox are dead because these men are in the rotation. Danks would've had plenty of wins had the Sox given him ANY run support in the first two months. Then, predictably, he hit a wall later in the year.

Floyd's one of those players that has all the talent in the world (ummm...much like Garland), but hasn't had the mental makeup to put it together consistently. He could end up lights out this year, or he could end up being the weakest link out of the fifth spot. With pitchers like Broadway approaching readiness for the big stage, that wouldn't last long.

I'm a little nervous too about the starting rotation but this post makes a superb point. It may be that Danks and Floyd will come through. I'm more worried about Contreras, frankly. My contention since '05 is that his career was moving towards the rear view mirror. Was last year a fluke, the result of stress from a divorce which will reverse itself in '08? I sure hope so because otherwise, we will be dealing with someone whose arm has just broken down with age.

Rather than rage against the starters, what has become of shoring up the bullpen? :?: Have we forgotten how many games were completely blown by one of the crappiest pens I've ever seen on any team? I do not discount the notion that our starters were demoralized as hell and hence underperformed much of the second half because they had no confidence in their comrades in arms.

oeo
12-11-2007, 04:55 AM
I think Gio Gonzalez is the best white sox pitching prospect since Fingernails on a blackboard, and maybe even Rauch pre-injury. Gio's stuff is electric....and many guys have alleviated the size concern that used to be around (Oswalt, Santana is no giant, Bedard...Rich Harden

This is one reason I think Gio is being underrated as a prospect. That's the biggest knock on the guy...his size. He's proven to be durable thus far, they should stop holding that against him.

And Santana is a great comparison...Gio and Santana are built almost exactly the same.

SoxxoS
12-11-2007, 07:48 AM
http://thebaseballcube.com/players/G/Giovany-Gonzalez.shtml

Hits, down. Walks, down. Runs, down. HR, way down.

Strikeouts? Up.

fquaye149
12-11-2007, 10:43 AM
This is one reason I think Gio is being underrated as a prospect. That's the biggest knock on the guy...his size. He's proven to be durable thus far, they should stop holding that against him.

And Santana is a great comparison...Gio and Santana are built almost exactly the same.

gio=5'11" 185
santana= 6'0" 208
:?:

The Immigrant
12-11-2007, 10:59 AM
gio=5'11" 185
santana= 6'0" 208
:?:

Santana was listed at 6'0'' and 190 lbs in the minors. Seems pretty close to me.

http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=27690

fquaye149
12-11-2007, 11:03 AM
fair enough

Walkman
12-11-2007, 11:27 AM
I'm a little nervous too about the starting rotation but this post makes a superb point. It may be that Danks and Floyd will come through. I'm more worried about Contreras, frankly. My contention since '05 is that his career was moving towards the rear view mirror. Was last year a fluke, the result of stress from a divorce which will reverse itself in '08? I sure hope so because otherwise, we will be dealing with someone whose arm has just broken down with age.

Rather than rage against the starters, what has become of shoring up the bullpen? :?: Have we forgotten how many games were completely blown by one of the crappiest pens I've ever seen on any team? I do not discount the notion that our starters were demoralized as hell and hence underperformed much of the second half because they had no confidence in their comrades in arms.


Contreras has a history of being a head case. He may have stuggled in NY partly becaude of family-related stress too. Let's hope he can rally.

Rockinsox05
12-12-2007, 10:52 AM
I just don't get KW's love for this guy.....

Asked about entering the season with John Danks and Gavin Floyd in the backend of his starting rotation, Williams responded, “Well, they’re in the back-end of the rotation now, but in 29 other rooms around the building right here these are two guys that everyone would want, and most people in the industry view as top-of-the-rotation guys. Our pitching is not going to be a problem this year. We’ll be fine in that area….Gavin Floyd showed us last year that he’s ready for full-time big-league work.”

The guy went 1-5 with a 5.27 era and gave up 17 home runs in 70 innings. KW is smoking something if any "people in the industry" view this guy as a “top of the rotation” guy.

I guess this is just me venting, by at this point I am just as concerned about our starting rotation and bullpen as I am about our lineup. IMO, after Buehrle and Vasquez everything else is question marks.

Oh well.

Please Kenny, just stop talking and start working. (give Ozzie this message too please).

Thank you and have a nice day.


I'm even more concerned about the pitching than the lineup. Floyd s.u.c.k.s bigtime and Danks is still shaky. I have no idea which Contreras is gonna show up. The bullpen was one of the worst in baseball. That 29 other rooms around here comment is a complete joke.

Corlose 15
12-12-2007, 11:13 AM
http://thebaseballcube.com/players/G/Giovany-Gonzalez.shtml

Hits, down. Walks, down. Runs, down. HR, way down.

Strikeouts? Up.

I've never understood the idea of including Gio Gonzalez in any of the trades here on WSI, save for maybe the Cabrera trade. I think this guy is gonna be a stud.

Also, why are people so down on Danks? He won the job last year as a 21 year old and was very serviceable in the 1st half of the year. Then as the innings piled up he broke down a bit, as other have stated, which wasn't unexpected.

Floyd, has a ton of talent and pitched very well at the end of last year when given the chance to start. He also said last year that it's the best he's felt on the mound in 2-3 years. If that means he's finally gotten over his mental issues on the mound then I'm very interested to see how he does this year.

Add that to the fact that you've got both Gonzalez, Broadway and possibly Egbert backing them up and this is a pretty good bunch. Plus, if the Sox are so incredibly screwed this year as many on here seem to believe, the correct course for the Sox to take would be to pitch these guys and let them develop. If the Sox are destined to finish behind Detroit by 20 games, adding Bartolo Colon isn't going to do much to change that.

However, if things go the Sox way you've got some real good young pitchers and you haven't even added DLS to the mix yet.

Tragg
12-12-2007, 11:16 AM
If Danks and Floyd actually are solid rotation regulars (3-4 pitchers) then the Sox are in a lot better shape than it feels like we're in right now. That would be a full rotation plus several young quality arms near ML ready.

balke
12-12-2007, 11:22 AM
For me, the Sox are saying "We have Gio, we have Floyd who looked good a couple games last year and has stuff, we have Danks who should be able to give a full season his sophomore year. Broadway is down on the farm and might surprise. We have pitching, and if we don't there's always the trade deadline if we need it".

I can't disagree with that. They've drafted pitchers like 3 years in a row, and wanted Gio back. Its time to see those pitchers produce and contribute.

So yeah on paper I don't like it, but I'm a lot more comfortable with this season's #5 situation than I was with 2004's #5 situation. Our 2008 #4-5's might be better looking than 2003-4's Jon Garland.

rowand33
12-12-2007, 12:46 PM
I'd love to see Haeger get a shot at starting. I think he can post better numbers than Floyd.

He'll get rocked now and then, but I'd be surprised if he couldn't put up an ERA in the mid-4s given a full season.

balke
12-12-2007, 12:53 PM
I'd love to see Haeger get a shot at starting. I think he can post better numbers than Floyd.

He'll get rocked now and then, but I'd be surprised if he couldn't put up an ERA in the mid-4s given a full season.


It seems like I only ever see Haeger get rocked. When's the last time he had a good outing? 3.0+ innings and he gets creamed. He has Spring Training to prove otherwise though.

jabrch
12-12-2007, 12:54 PM
Floyd s.u.c.k.s

Be careful...

wcw2323
01-07-2008, 01:32 PM
I'd love to see Haeger get a shot at starting. I think he can post better numbers than Floyd.

He'll get rocked now and then, but I'd be surprised if he couldn't put up an ERA in the mid-4s given a full season.

Look at Haeger's numbers the second half of last year at Charlotte. He had the best ERA..I think it was actually under 2.00. This kid has only had the opportunity to start on one occasion, his ML debut on May '06. He was obviously nervous as hell at 22 years old. He needs the same opportunity being handed to Floyd. The opportunity to start every 5 days at the back of a rotation to get his feet under him. I think the Sox are really selling this kid short. The problem he has is this...Tucson ST has dry air, a Knuckler's nightmare. He will have a difficut time getting the ball to dance.
Haeger has had more outstanding performances vs. bad ones. I'm surprised that he is rarely mentioned on this board.

Carolina Kenny
01-07-2008, 01:54 PM
He may be building them up a bit verbally either to show confidence in them for their sake or to build up their trade value.

He may also have his hands tied a bit. Maybe the Sox don't have a lot of extra money to spend and KW is trying to put the best face on it he can.

Finally, maybe he really does feel that way. That's his job - evaluate talent and decide who stays and who goes. Unlike in smaller market towns there is a ton of scrutiny focused on Kenny and he constantly has to justify his actions to a large group of media, many of who want to see him fail or catch him saying things they can come back to hammer later because it makes their jobs easier. Add in the high expectations of the fan base and the recent disappointments and right now, getting KW to say something they can get mileage out of is a primary focus and saying he likes his young pitchers is sure to do just that - see the first post in this thread as an example.

And who knows, maybe Kenny's right...

Well Said!!

MCHSoxFan
01-07-2008, 03:56 PM
Well Said!!

I agree with you and the orginal poster. In my opinion, the reason why we CANNOT have Charlie pitching in the ML is because AJ CANNOT catch a knuckleball or has a lot of difficulty trying to catch a knuckleball...or so I am am told. Can Hall catch it? Maybe Charlie can pitch and when he does, Hall will play?

balke
01-07-2008, 04:19 PM
I agree with you and the orginal poster. In my opinion, the reason why we CANNOT have Charlie pitching in the ML is because AJ CANNOT catch a knuckleball or has a lot of difficulty trying to catch a knuckleball...or so I am am told. Can Hall catch it? Maybe Charlie can pitch and when he does, Hall will play?

There's that problem, and also I don't think Charlie's fastball is good enough for him to be a successful knuckleballer. Sometimes the Knuckler is working, but that fastball at 85 isn't fast enough to keep someone on their heels.

btrain929
01-07-2008, 04:23 PM
It would have been an interesting idea if Haeger got all those starts at the end of last year that Floyd got. Don't get me wrong, Floyd did very well, but he also did very well in the bullpen. Currently, we need a long man for the pen. Floyd could have filled that role in the pen, while Haeger was given the 5th starter spot. But, it obviously isn't going to work out that way. Haeger did have control problems last year. I'm guessing it was part Haeger's fault and part AJ's fault for not catching borderline pitches, etc. I think, at this point, best case scenario is he goes to AAA, tears **** up, and we bring him up if Floyd falters. If, somehow, both Danks and Floyd perform well for the backend of our rotation, we can package him with other arms to make another trade.

johnr1note
01-07-2008, 05:49 PM
I haven't followed this whole thread, just the last page, but I am a big advocate of using Haeger. I was at several games where he came in in relief and was unhittable. Perhaps if you use him after a pitcher that throws a lot of heat, he becomes more effective. I will say this, if you subtract out his MLB debut from his stats, his overall career ERA (in limited MLB experience, I know, only 25 innings) is 3.85. I think he deserves a shot.

Daver
01-07-2008, 06:02 PM
There's that problem, and also I don't think Charlie's fastball is good enough for him to be a successful knuckleballer. Sometimes the Knuckler is working, but that fastball at 85 isn't fast enough to keep someone on their heels.

You don't become a knuckleball pitcher if you can throw the ball hard in the first place, I fail to see your logic here.

balke
01-07-2008, 06:35 PM
You don't become a knuckleball pitcher if you can throw the ball hard in the first place, I fail to see your logic here.

He throws a mid-80's fastball and its nothing special. I guess that's what Wakefield's gotten by on though, so maybe I'm wrong. I just don't see the magic everyone wants to see in Haeger just because he's a knuckleballer. All I see is a guy who goes in to pitch and he gets lit up if its for more than 2-3 innings.

Daver
01-07-2008, 06:41 PM
He throws a mid-80's fastball and its nothing special. I guess that's what Wakefield's gotten by on though, so maybe I'm wrong. I just don't see the magic everyone wants to see in Haeger just because he's a knuckleballer. All I see is a guy who goes in to pitch and he gets lit up if its for more than 2-3 innings.

When a good knuckleballer has a good night, they can be unhittable, they'll give up some weak singles, but that's about it. I used to love watching Charlie Hough throw three and four hit games and watching batters completely chasing garbage pitches.

balke
01-07-2008, 06:44 PM
When a good knuckleballer has a good night, they can be unhittable, they'll give up some weak singles, but that's about it. I used to love watching Charlie Hough throw three and four hit games and watching batters completely chasing garbage pitches.

That's the idea and the dream, but when that special night doesn't happen, Charlie hasn't shown (yet?) that he can hold the opposition to a respectable number IMO. Thus, why he's not penciled in as the 5th starter over Floyd like many projected him doing last season.

Brian26
01-07-2008, 06:46 PM
There's that problem, and also I don't think Charlie's fastball is good enough for him to be a successful knuckleballer. Sometimes the Knuckler is working, but that fastball at 85 isn't fast enough to keep someone on their heels.

I used to love watching Charlie Hough throw three and four hit games and watching batters completely chasing garbage pitches.

That's the first name that popped into my head. I'm not sure Charlie Hough threw a ball over 80mph in his life, but he could put a clinic on with his garbage pitches and knucklers.

Daver
01-07-2008, 06:58 PM
That's the idea and the dream, but when that special night doesn't happen, Charlie hasn't shown (yet?) that he can hold the opposition to a respectable number IMO. Thus, why he's not penciled in as the 5th starter over Floyd like many projected him doing last season.

I would guess the fact that the Sox don't have a catcher that can catch a knuckler has something to do with it.

balke
01-07-2008, 07:06 PM
I would guess the fact that the Sox don't have a catcher that can catch a knuckler has something to do with it.

They didn't hesitate to use a 92 year-old Sandy Alomar to help Buehrle behind the plate, I don't see why Kenny wouldn't pull the trigger for a catcher who can catch for Haeger if that's really the only thing holding him back from being a starter for the Sox. I don't doubt it could be one factor, but if that was the only problem they would've solved it by now I'm pretty sure.

thedudeabides
01-07-2008, 07:10 PM
They didn't hesitate to use a 92 year-old Sandy Alomar to help Buehrle behind the plate, I don't see why Kenny wouldn't pull the trigger for a catcher who can catch for Haeger if that's really the only thing holding him back from being a starter for the Sox. I don't doubt it could be one factor, but if that was the only problem they would've solved it by now I'm pretty sure.

I can't see them getting a catcher for a guy who probably won't make the team. Who catches him in AAA?

johnny_mostil
01-07-2008, 07:49 PM
I don't know how much more of this I can take.... Danks was okay last year, but I don't know that he's ready to be a 3 or 4 in a rotation.... Floyd is barely a No. 5....

Not picking on your, AJH, but this is a pet peeve of mine:

There is actually no such thing as a "number 3 pitcher" in real baseball. There are starters and relievers, but your "Number 3 pitcher" is just the guy who gets the ball after two others have pitched. No real team thinks in terms of "getting a #3 guy" unless they only have two pitchers they trust.

The pervasive idea of a "He's a number X but not a number X-1" is, I think, mistakenly projecting fantasy baseball onto the real game.

Since they don't get re-seeded every week to face specific pitchers on other teams, it just doesn't matter what number a given pitcher has.

That said, the Sox live and die on Jose Contreras this year...

The White Sox aren't even particularly good about skipping the fifth starter as they try to keep workloads down and balanced.