PDA

View Full Version : Juan Pierre...


rowand33
12-06-2007, 01:30 AM
So...

the Dodgers sign Jones to play center. They already have Juan Pierre to play CF.

Somebody doesn't have a job.

The Sox don't have a CF, but need a leadoff man.

the Dodgers dont' have a 3b. The Sox have Crede.

Pierre + Cash for Crede.

Not saying I want this to happen.

I just think it will.

This makes our lineup:

Pierre
Cabrera
Thome
Konerko
Dye
Fields
AJ
Quentin
Richar

Domeshot17
12-06-2007, 01:31 AM
So...

the Dodgers sign Jones to play center. They already have Juan Pierre to play CF.

Somebody doesn't have a job.

The Sox don't have a CF, but need a leadoff man.

the Dodgers dont' have a 3b. The Sox have Crede.

Pierre + Cash for Crede.

Not saying I want this to happen.

I just think it will.

Agreed, the final kicker is Pierre is one of ozzie's boys from his marlins days

rowand33
12-06-2007, 01:32 AM
:darkclouds:

Scottiehaswheels
12-06-2007, 01:33 AM
:puking:If we're gonna go with crap in CF, at least have a young guy to learn the position... Willits, Owens whatever...

rowand33
12-06-2007, 01:34 AM
:puking:If we're gonna go with crap in CF, at least have a young guy to learn the position... Willits, Owens whatever...

he did hit .290 and steal over 60 bags last year.

He's an improvement over Owens, IMO. And I think I'd rather have him than Coco Crisp.

Still, in an offseason where we all thought we were gonna get Hunter, it'll be depressing if we end up with Pierre.

And the match just seems too perfect.

peeonwrigley
12-06-2007, 01:34 AM
I'd love to pry Kemp from LA... Pierre, not so much. Better than Owens at this point, though.

gregory18n
12-06-2007, 02:14 AM
I think Pierre would be a good pick-up for us; speed at the top. I also want us to pull in Fukodome as our 3rd outfielder.

IceczMan
12-06-2007, 02:28 AM
While everything that has been said makes sense, this isnt necessarily a situation where someone is out of a job, the Dodgers have mentioned before this trade that if they were to acquire a centerfielder with a stronger arm, they would see if they could move Pierre to play in LF.

cburns
12-06-2007, 02:35 AM
I wouldn't mind getting Pierre from the Dodgers for the right price. However, as angered as I have been at Podsednik's noodle arm from left field, I would be more irate seeing Pierre bounce throws over the pitching mound from center field.

JRIG
12-06-2007, 02:35 AM
he did hit .290 and steal over 60 bags last year.

He's an improvement over Owens, IMO. And I think I'd rather have him than Coco Crisp.

Still, in an offseason where we all thought we were gonna get Hunter, it'll be depressing if we end up with Pierre.

And the match just seems too perfect.

He's also finished in the top three in outs made each of the last five years. Last year he finished third. He's finished second twice, and was king out-maker two years as well. And he's led the league in caught stealings four of the last five years.

He's got a paper-mache arm and no range, not to mention a horrible contract.

I don't want Juan Pierre within 500 miles of the South Side of Chicago.

Tragg
12-06-2007, 08:25 AM
We've really sunk if PIerre's the answer.

But, yea, he's better than Crisp or Owens.

spawn
12-06-2007, 08:35 AM
I'd rather have Owens.

Sargeant79
12-06-2007, 08:48 AM
Juan Pierre = Jerry Owens

Just about the same type of player, only Owens is owed about $35 million less over the next 4 years. If we're going to settle on a CF who is a really fast slap-hitter with a weak arm, I'd prefer it be Owens.

AWhiteSoxinNJ
12-06-2007, 09:06 AM
Juan is going to play LF for LA.

rowand33
12-06-2007, 09:18 AM
Juan is going to play LF for LA.

Maybe. But it's not like they don't have outfield depth.

What they don't have is a 3B.

I'm not saying I want Pierre. I'm not saying this trade is a lock. But it seems to make a lot of sense for both sides.

drewcifer
12-06-2007, 09:19 AM
He's also finished in the top three in outs made each of the last five years. Last year he finished third. He's finished second twice, and was king out-maker two years as well. And he's led the league in caught stealings four of the last five years.

Where does he rank in ABs over the last 5 years? If a guy is consistently upwards of 650+ ABs and gets on base 35%+ of the time as a lead off, your going to make outs stealing and batting. Come on.


He's got a paper-mache arm and no range, not to mention a horrible contract.

These are better arguments.

But I don't think you're going to get 50+ SBs and .350 OBP out of Owens and he (Pierre) is probably the best option/fit left at this point. Plus, he doesn't HAVE to be a long term solution...

PorkChopExpress
12-06-2007, 09:41 AM
Maybe. But it's not like they don't have outfield depth.

What they don't have is a 3B.

I'm not saying I want Pierre. I'm not saying this trade is a lock. But it seems to make a lot of sense for both sides.

I don't think it is a fit for the White Sox. Like other posters have pointed out, Juan Pierre is an older more expensive, albeit more experienced version of Jerry Owens. If KW thinks giving away Crede for Pierre and cash is a better option than using Owens and waiting to at least showcase Crede in ST to raise his value a tiny bit, then we are in big trouble. I'm not saying it won't happen though.

santo=dorf
12-06-2007, 09:49 AM
Where does he rank in ABs over the last 5 years? If a guy is consistently upwards of 650+ ABs and gets on base 35%+ of the time as a lead off, your going to make outs stealing and batting. Come on.



These are better arguments.

But I don't think you're going to get 50+ SBs and .350 OBP out of Owens and he (Pierre) is probably the best option/fit left at this point. Plus, he doesn't HAVE to be a long term solution...
Juan Pierre hasn't had a .350 OBP since 2004. Your arguments about the number of at-bats he received can be used for the number of stolen bases as well.

Also not making an out and getting on base >>> than stealing a base.

drewcifer
12-06-2007, 10:07 AM
Juan Pierre hasn't had a .350 OBP since 2004. Your arguments about the number of at-bats he received can be used for the number of stolen bases as well.

Also not making an out and getting on base >>> than stealing a base.

He doesn't SO and he doesn't walk. So his below .350 OBP in the last 3 years just looks like bad luck. He's still a .348 career OBP, and 4 and 5 seasons back he was over .360.

#AB <> # of SBs. That's silly. Johnny Damon has averaged nearly 600 ABs over the last 4 years as a leadoff...How many SBs does he have?

Who said getting on and not making an out was less valuable than stealing a base? My point is someone that is a base stealing threat at the leadoff spot has value.

PorkChopExpress
12-06-2007, 10:12 AM
Can't we swing something for Kemp or Ethier (sp?) instead? Don't know if that answers the lead-off question, but it'd be better for us.

Jjav829
12-06-2007, 10:20 AM
Can't we swing something for Kemp or Ethier (sp?) instead? Don't know if that answers the lead-off question, but it'd be better for us.

I would think Ethier is definitely available now. I don't know how the Dodgers feel about trading Kemp, but I imagine that an offer including Josh Fields would get their attention.

skottyj242
12-06-2007, 10:23 AM
He looks like a little kid.

spiffie
12-06-2007, 10:45 AM
He's also finished in the top three in outs made each of the last five years. Last year he finished third. He's finished second twice, and was king out-maker two years as well. And he's led the league in caught stealings four of the last five years.

He's got a paper-mache arm and no range, not to mention a horrible contract.

I don't want Juan Pierre within 500 miles of the South Side of Chicago.
Actually I think it could be quite funny to see him about 8.1 miles from USCF again.

jenn2080
12-06-2007, 10:45 AM
He looks like a little kid.


Yeah he does and he looks like he wears his dad's uniform too.

chisoxmike
12-06-2007, 10:47 AM
So...

the Dodgers sign Jones to play center. They already have Juan Pierre to play CF.

Somebody doesn't have a job.

The Sox don't have a CF, but need a leadoff man.

the Dodgers dont' have a 3b. The Sox have Crede.

Pierre + Cash for Crede.

Not saying I want this to happen.

I just think it will.

This makes our lineup:

Pierre
Cabrera
Thome
Konerko
Dye
Fields
AJ
Quentin
Richar

I'd rather have a questionable Crede.

Madvora
12-06-2007, 10:56 AM
People seem to hate just about every move that's out there.
Pierre is a career .301 hitter and has played all 162 games for the last 5 years and his stolen base numbers are very high and strikeouts are very low.
Just because he has a weak arm, does that mean he's completely worthless? We got away avoiding the big free agent signing of this guy last year, so we could probably get a pretty good deal with a trade for this guy. If he's too weak for CF, then maybe we could take him for LF. We survived 2005 with a weak arm out there.
I'm curious is there's anybody out there that the majority of Sox fans want. If the Sox just landed Ichiro Suzuki I'd bet half of this board would be up in arms about something.

Huisj
12-06-2007, 11:16 AM
For the people who are saying that Pierre is just a more experienced expensive version of Jerry Owens, I would be you'd all be thrilled to death if Owens all the sudden marched out a few seasons in a row where he hit almost .300, got on base at a .350 rate, and stole 60 bases. That would be at least as good as what Podsednik was in 2005, back when having the speedy leadoff guy who could create havoc on the bases was part of the recipe for winning a world series.

Tragg
12-06-2007, 11:23 AM
People seem to hate just about every move that's out there.
Pierre is a career .301 hitter and has played all 162 games for the last 5 years and his stolen base numbers are very high and strikeouts are very low.
Just because he has a weak arm, does that mean he's completely worthless? We got away avoiding the big free agent signing of this guy last year, so we could probably get a pretty good deal with a trade for this guy. If he's too weak for CF, then maybe we could take him for LF. We survived 2005 with a weak arm out there.
I'm curious is there's anybody out there that the majority of Sox fans want. If the Sox just landed Ichiro Suzuki I'd bet half of this board would be up in arms about something.
We heard the same stuff about Erstad - still do. He doesn't strike out. Career stats used to cover declining recent stats.
The problem is he doesn't get on base. He's not much different from Owens. Use Crede to get a player we need.
The no-power, noK, no obp slapper approach netted the league's worst offense and 72 wins last year. Let's not repeat that approach.

And to compare Ichiro with Pierre - my goodness. Yes Ichiro is a free swinger - he also bats .350, has some power and has an arm.

BadBobbyJenks
12-06-2007, 11:24 AM
Im fine with it IF we move him to left and sign rowand or fukudome.

Sargeant79
12-06-2007, 11:41 AM
But I don't think you're going to get 50+ SBs and .350 OBP out of Owens and he (Pierre) is probably the best option/fit left at this point. Plus, he doesn't HAVE to be a long term solution...

Actually, I'm willing to bet you will get 50+ SB from Owens if he plays for a full year. And if he continues to improve at the rate he did last year into his second full major league season, I don't think a .275 BA w/ a .340-.350 OBP is out of the question either.

Hendu
12-06-2007, 12:37 PM
For the people who are saying that Pierre is just a more experienced expensive version of Jerry Owens, I would be you'd all be thrilled to death if Owens all the sudden marched out a few seasons in a row where he hit almost .300, got on base at a .350 rate, and stole 60 bases. That would be at least as good as what Podsednik was in 2005, back when having the speedy leadoff guy who could create havoc on the bases was part of the recipe for winning a world series.

Juan Pierre would need a lot of things to fall his way to approach a .350 OBP again.

jabrch
12-06-2007, 12:54 PM
I'll take all the .300 hitters I can get.

Madvora
12-06-2007, 01:00 PM
And to compare Ichiro with Pierre - my goodness. Yes Ichiro is a free swinger - he also bats .350, has some power and has an arm.
Oh God! Please don't think I was comparing Pierre to Ichiro Suzuki.
I was just making a point that nobody can be good enough for the people on this board. I was saying that if the Sox landed him (Suzuki,) there would still be a backlash of negativity about some problem he has.

champagne030
12-06-2007, 01:25 PM
So...

the Dodgers sign Jones to play center. They already have Juan Pierre to play CF.

Somebody doesn't have a job.

The Sox don't have a CF, but need a leadoff man.

the Dodgers dont' have a 3b. The Sox have Crede.

Pierre + Cash for Crede.

Not saying I want this to happen.

I just think it will.

This makes our lineup:

Pierre
Cabrera
Thome
Konerko
Dye
Fields
AJ
Quentin
Richar

Juan Pierre is Jerry Owens on HGH. They both suck and if I'm forced to root for garbage I'd rather it be much cheaper garbage.

Foulke You
12-06-2007, 05:18 PM
I'll take all the .300 hitters I can get.
Agreed. I'm not sure what Jerry Owens people were watching last year but the one I watched has no chance of ever hitting .300 in a season. Pierre is a significant upgrade over Owens offensively. He also does one thing that just about nobody on the White Sox does well and that is bunt. Pierre is arguably one of the best bunters in baseball and on a Roger Bossard field he could get an extra 20 bunt base hits a year. If the Dodgers eat a bit of that bad contract, I'd take a shot with Pierre.

rowand33
12-06-2007, 05:25 PM
Juan Pierre is Jerry Owens on HGH. They both suck and if I'm forced to root for garbage I'd rather it be much cheaper garbage.

We'd all be ecstastic if Jerry Owens does next year what Juan Pierre has done the last few years.

Again, I don't really want Pierre, but I suppose I could resign myself to the sox having.

Anybody taht doesn't think Pierre is better than Owens is crazy.

btrain929
12-06-2007, 05:26 PM
Agreed. I'm not sure what Jerry Owens people were watching last year but the one I watched has no chance of ever hitting .300 in a season. Pierre is a significant upgrade over Owens offensively. He also does one thing that just about nobody on the White Sox does well and that is bunt. Pierre is arguably one of the best bunters in baseball and on a Roger Bossard field he could get an extra 20 bunt base hits a year. If the Dodgers eat a bit of that bad contract, I'd take a shot with Pierre.

Yeah, you're right, he only won a batting title a few years ago in the minors. :rolleyes:
He drops down an extra bunt every week, he'll be right at .300. I still can't believe people think .260 is his ceiling after 3/4 of a season in the majors. Am I putting him as a write-in for the HOF? No. Can he continue to develop and do a lot of things similar to Juan ****ing Pierre? Absolutely.

santo=dorf
12-06-2007, 06:07 PM
Agreed. I'm not sure what Jerry Owens people were watching last year but the one I watched has no chance of ever hitting .300 in a season. Pierre is a significant upgrade over Owens offensively. He also does one thing that just about nobody on the White Sox does well and that is bunt. Pierre is arguably one of the best bunters in baseball and on a Roger Bossard field he could get an extra 20 bunt base hits a year. If the Dodgers eat a bit of that bad contract, I'd take a shot with Pierre.Pierre hasn't hit .300 since 2004,he doesn't walk (which is why his OBP is so it's not bad luck drewcifer,) and he has no power.

He's Erstad with a higher batting average, less power, and a fatter contract. Have we learned nothing from the no power, no patience, ground ball hitting, Ozzie Guillen type hitters from last year?:?:

Foulke You
12-06-2007, 06:33 PM
Yeah, you're right, he only won a batting title a few years ago in the minors. :rolleyes:
He drops down an extra bunt every week, he'll be right at .300. I still can't believe people think .260 is his ceiling after 3/4 of a season in the majors. Am I putting him as a write-in for the HOF? No. Can he continue to develop and do a lot of things similar to Juan ****ing Pierre? Absolutely.
Jerry Owens is NOT a raw talent in his early 20s fresh from the minors. He has been AAAA player for several years now. Owens will be 27 years old by Opening Day '08. I think he has developed about as far as he is going to go. He won a batting title a few years ago and that was in the minors yet people here are worried because Pierre hasn't hit .300 in a couple years in the majors.:rolleyes: People forget that Owens had quite a lot of ABs with the Sox last year to show off what he could do and win himself a starting job on the '08 roster and all he showed me (and probably KW too) was that he would be a valuable bench player and a great pinch runner. He is not a World Series CFer in my opinion. We already know that you can win a World Series with Pierre in your outfield. I can't say the same about Owens.

Also, if Owens is so great and has so much "potential", why is Kenny Williams trying so hard to make sure Owens isn't in the starting lineup for '08? :?: I'm not saying Pierre is not without flaws but he is better than Owens and makes the Sox immediately better for '08. I think a 1-2 of Juan Pierre and Orlando Cabrera setting the table for Thome, Dye, and Konerko could produce a lot of runs.

I also enjoy how many people on WSI flip flop on a player. Last year, a lot of people were upset that we lost out on Pierre to the Dodgers and had to settle for Erstad. Now all of the sudden, Pierre "sucks" and KW should stay away. I agree with a previous poster, I think there are some on this board that hate every possible deal out there. There just aren't many perfect players out there and the ones that are perfect like an A-Rod or Johan Santana are usually very hard to get. People need to be realistic about what Kenny Williams can do this year to improve the ballclub and spending $15 million per year on Rowand is probably not the answer.

santo=dorf
12-06-2007, 06:59 PM
I also enjoy how many people on WSI flip flop on a player. Last year, a lot of people were upset that we lost out on Pierre to the Dodgers and had to settle for Erstad. Now all of the sudden, Pierre "sucks" and KW should stay away.
Please show a link to what you claim. Here's the signing thread (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=81416&highlight=pierre%5C)which includes a little discussion about him, but everyone laughed at his ridiculous deal.
Some more reactions: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=79421&highlight=pierre%5C

gobears1987
12-06-2007, 07:02 PM
he did hit .290 and steal over 60 bags last year.


which I might add is quite similar to Podsednik's numbers in 05.

Foulke You
12-06-2007, 07:07 PM
Please show a link to what you claim. Here's the signing thread (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=81416&highlight=pierre%5C)which includes a little discussion about him, but everyone laughed at his ridiculous deal.
Some more reactions: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=79421&highlight=pierre%5C
Of course we laughed at the deal. He was overpaid!! I'm not disputing this! However, for the right price, people thought Pierre was a good pickup to have. If you'll read my previous post, you'll see that I said I would like this deal if the Dodgers were willing to eat some of Pierre's salary. Other people argued that he is the same player as Owens so why bother which is the main point I was disputing.

sullythered
12-06-2007, 07:09 PM
Pierre is fine, but his contract is ugly. I don't think he's a significant enough improvement over Owens in anything to justify that kind of financial upgrade.

Just go get Rowand. And then steal Brian Roberts from the Cubs.

guillen4life13
12-06-2007, 07:37 PM
I wouldn't kill myself if Crede were dealt for Pierre. It would, to me, be a common sense move. I wouldn't be jumping with joy either. I'd wait to reserve judgment based on how well Pierre plays.

Pierre is good but he is a bit overrated, IMO. When he's good, he's really good (like Pods). But when he's not, he's mediocre (the term "empty .300 hitter" was used to describe Chris Singleton's 1999 season, but at least he was cheap and played pretty good defense). Pierre has spent about 7.5 seasons in the majors. For four of those seasons, his OBP has hovered around .330. The other 3.5, his OBP has ranged from .353-.378. Which player would we be getting? If it's the recent version, I think I'd pass but if it's the 2001-2004 version, I'd be overjoyed. It would give the Sox the lead off hitter they've needed at the expense of an expendable 3B who probably isn't going to come back after the coming season anyways.

Compare:

Owens (26) (2007-extended look in MLB): .324 OBP, 33 SB in 356 AB

Pierre (27) (2007): .331 OBP, 64 SB
Pierre (28) (2006): .330 OBP, 58 SB
Pierre (29) (2005): .326 OBP, 57 SB

It's also worthwhile to note that this past season, in 356 AB Owens walked 27 times. Pierre had 668 AB and walked 33 times.

Given a little time and an off season to refine and reflect, I think Owens could match Pierre's career OBP. With regards to stealing bases, Owens already has that aspect down. So even if we didn't land Pierre I'd be pretty confident in Owens doing alright.

PorkChopExpress
12-06-2007, 07:44 PM
If KW does this deal, it means everything he has been telling us is BS. In explaining why he didn't pursue Jones, KW said it was because he is not a patient hitter or OBP guy. Well neither is Pierre. I understand that we would not be paying Pierre nearly what we would have had to pay Jones, but that is not why KW said he was uninterested. There are plenty of other people in the Dodgers system I would rather have.

chaerulez
12-06-2007, 08:15 PM
Juan Pierre isn't very good. His career OPS+ is 84. 100 is considered average. His career OBP is .348. You really want your leadoff hitter to have at least a .375 OBP. Look at the OBP of the leadoff and number two hitters of the AL playoff teams:

Red Sox
Ellsbury .394
Pedroia .380

Indians
Sizemore .390
Cabrera .354

Yankees
Damon .351
Jeter .388

Angels
Figgins .393/Willits .391
Cabrera .345

Aside from Sizemore and Jeter and at times Damon the rest of these guys aren't known for high OBP career wise. They just happened to have good numbers this year. With that said, I don't think it's a concidence that the playoff teams happened to have guys that can get on base at the top of the lineup. Pierre gets a lot of steals, but it's because he has around 700 plate appearances a year that he gets on base 240 or so times a year that allow him the chance to get all those steals. If he hit ninth and didn't come to the plate as often, those steals would decrease. Pierre isn't anything special defensively either. And with his big contract, I don't want him on the Sox.

Hendu
12-06-2007, 08:46 PM
Good analysis, chaerulez. If Juan Pierre was a 1-year desperation stopgap, fine. But would we want to be married to this guy for 4 years? I'd rather take our chances on Owens and then look for an impact player if he doesn't work out.

drewcifer
12-06-2007, 08:48 PM
Juan Pierre isn't very good. His career OPS+ is 84. 100 is considered average. His career OBP is .348. You really want your leadoff hitter to have at least a .375 OBP. Look at the OBP of the leadoff and number two hitters of the AL playoff teams:

Red Sox
Ellsbury .394
Pedroia .380

Indians
Sizemore .390
Cabrera .354

Yankees
Damon .351
Jeter .388

Angels
Figgins .393/Willits .391
Cabrera .345

Aside from Sizemore and Jeter and at times Damon the rest of these guys aren't known for high OBP career wise. They just happened to have good numbers this year. With that said, I don't think it's a concidence that the playoff teams happened to have guys that can get on base at the top of the lineup. Pierre gets a lot of steals, but it's because he has around 700 plate appearances a year that he gets on base 240 or so times a year that allow him the chance to get all those steals. If he hit ninth and didn't come to the plate as often, those steals would decrease. Pierre isn't anything special defensively either. And with his big contract, I don't want him on the Sox.

I was excited about the buildup in your post, until your first line of "proof" featured a man with like 130 ABs in the big leagues and 105 of them came in September.

What a let down.

I'd rather have Pierre than Damon for million$ of reasons, Figgins is coming off his best career year BY FAR, and Sizemore is...well Sizemore. None of those is even an option (aside from the early talk about Damon and thank God that didn't happen).

If it wasn't for Pierre's contract, it'd be a fantastic trade.

Scottie Pods has a career OBP of .338. In 05, it was .349. His career OPS+ is 86.

How crappy was the trade for him? And let's not even get into comparing health... Pierre's numbers are just fine and I bring up Pods only for it's realistic comparative value (i.e. - Sizemore, Figgins, Ellsbury are not realistic as options to improve our team in 08).

santo=dorf
12-06-2007, 10:45 PM
Of course we laughed at the deal. He was overpaid!! I'm not disputing this! However, for the right price, people thought Pierre was a good pickup to have. If you'll read my previous post, you'll see that I said I would like this deal if the Dodgers were willing to eat some of Pierre's salary. Other people argued that he is the same player as Owens so why bother which is the main point I was disputing.
Prove it. Here were the reactions BEFORE he was signed on the first page:
No, his fellow players voted him as having one of the worst outfield arms in baseball.

NO THANKS to Juan Pierre. In the offseason, I hope the Sox focus their attention to Ryan Freel, Dave Roberts, and Michael Young.

Carl Crawford will be too expensive and TB would be stupid to get rid of him.

No, no, a thousand times, no.

Wonder if Ozzie either had a shudder or busted out laughing when he saw that comment.

Front

No Juan Pierre. Bad arm. Inconsistent offense.

I don't think the Sox need a speed burner at the top. They need a guy that gets on base, can go 1st to 3rd on a basehit, and gets runners over when the 9-hole guy gets on.

The 2007 White Sox need to upgrade the bullpen first and foremost. I'm hoping the rotation can refocus and bounce back, but they really need to get a couple proven commodities for the bullpen. I can live with McCarthy moving to the rotation, and inserting Charlie Haeger as a long man, with MacDougal, Thornton, and Jenks coming back. But they need to let Cotts and Riske go, and get some guys that can give some innings and get outs. Logan and Tracey aren't ready to be part of a championship team.

No Thanks! He is no better then Pods. He also wears his uniform like he is Manny Ramirez. Apparently they dont make kids sizes in uniforms.

We already tried going with a leadoff man who can't get on base more than 1/3 of the time. We just got eliminated from the playoff race. Let's not try that again.

No Pierre - his arm is weak and so is his on-base percentage for the amount of hits he gets.

And he's got a prety bad OBP for a leadoff guy. I think Pods' is just as bad.

I'd go with M. Young or Figgins. Freel would be awesome as a Sox, but I can't see the Reds trading him.

No thanks, his second half numbers are going to make someone overpay for him.

No no no. Just give me Josh Fields in left, Carl Crawford in Center, and Michael Young at SS.

Podsednik had a .348 OBP on Aug 1. He more or less tanked the last two months (along with everybody else), so I wouldn't exactly say he has been underwhelming all year. While .348 isn't exactly stellar, I'd put it on the low end of the acceptable range, given that there aren't a lot of better options. If they can upgrade, that would be great. I just don't think it's going to be that easy. Everybody is looking for a good leadoff hitter.

But Juan Pierre? He needs a relay to get the ball to second base. No thanks.

But WSI just totally did a 180 on the guy. :rolleyes:

Juan Pierre sucked then and sucks now. Anyone who uses just batting average as a metric of determining how good a hitter is or how much he would benefit the team is completely clueless.

He doesn't hit .300. He bunts/slaps about .290, has zero power, doesn't walk, and doesn't have a great SB percentage.

He sucks.

psyclonis
12-07-2007, 12:36 AM
how can you bash pierre? hes better than anything we could put out in CF.
yea he has horrible D, but a guy having 650+ AB with a .290 w/ 90 runs is doing something right...

Do I want him on the sox? NO
But bashing a strictly NL only player seems silly and immature

Mohoney
12-07-2007, 12:39 AM
If LA throws a lot of cash our way, I'll take Pierre at a substantial discount over either Rowand at his rumored price or Jerry Owens starting in CF.

A Pierre-Cabrera 1-2 could work if Dye and AJ both hit, and since that's what we're pretty much banking on anyway by re-upping with both guys, it's worth a shot.

I'm guessing they would want Crede, but if we could persuade them to take Fields (and probably other prospects) instead, the move would fit a lot better in our "win now" mentality.

Then maybe you could trade a LHP for Raul Ibanez to play LF, too, leaving you with Ibanez-Pierre-Dye in the OF, Crede-Cabrera-Richar-Konerko in the IF, AJ behind the plate, and a rotation of Buehrle, Vazquez, Contreras, Floyd, Danks/Gio (whichever lefty doesn't go in the Ibanez deal, preferably Gio).

That team, IMO, is much better than the team we fielded in 2007, and it's certainly economically feasible.

Tragg
12-07-2007, 12:44 AM
I'm guessing they would want Crede, but if we could persuade them to take Fields (and probably other prospects) instead, the move would fit a lot better in our "win now" mentality.


Persuade them to take Fields for Juan Pierre? They'd take that deal in a heartbeat and then do a dance for a month.


Pierre had an obp of .331 and ZERO, count 'em, ZERO homers last year. That's awful. Career OBP of .348 and 12 homers in nearly 5,000 at bats.

Trading high ceiling young talent for crap veterans makes a team worse and solidifies 72 wins.

russ99
12-07-2007, 02:31 PM
Persuade them to take Fields for Juan Pierre? They'd take that deal in a heartbeat and then do a dance for a month.


Pierre had an obp of .331 and ZERO, count 'em, ZERO homers last year. That's awful. Career OBP of .348 and 12 homers in nearly 5,000 at bats.

Trading high ceiling young talent for crap veterans makes a team worse and solidifies 72 wins.

And with Joe's question marks and impending FA, there's no reason the Sox would deal Fields instead of Crede, unless it were for a Miguel Cabrera level of talent. Pierre's not that...

Foulke You
12-07-2007, 03:32 PM
Prove it. Here were the reactions BEFORE he was signed on the first page:

I can make use of the search function as well:

Gr8Mexico-
"What's the problem with Juan Pierre? The guy plays hard has experience in the post season and has a good glove. I think Juan is a way better option then Podsednik."

Sox230-
"As for Pierre, why didn't we go hard after him? Even though he had an "off year" last year, he still LED THE LEAGUE in hits and had 50+ stolen bases, and unlike Pods BARELY EVER STRIKES OUT. I remember him also saying he loves Ozzie. It would also stab the Cubs a little bit."


Spiffie-
"I don't know, but I wish we had one. [leadoff man] Instead we have a guy who had a just barely 50% success rate on his 40 stolen bases, got on base at a crappy clip, and seems to be permanently slowed by the injury he got in late summer of 2005."

Caulfield-
"Sadly, KW might think the best option is Jerry Owens at this point."

Domeshot-
If Jerry Owens is leading off in left field next season, and Brian Anderson is still in center, we are going to wish we were in 3rd place.

35th&Florida-
"With Juan Pierre expected to take the Dodgers for $45...who's still in the running to solve our problems in left and center? "

I will say that that you are partially correct, there were more people against Pierre on WSI than I remember but most of it was relating to the fact that he is overpaid for what he brings to the table which I'm NOT disputing. I also remember a lot of complaining on The Score from fans as well that we re-upped with Pods instead of Pierre.

Foulke You
12-07-2007, 03:46 PM
Juan Pierre sucked then and sucks now. Anyone who uses just batting average as a metric of determining how good a hitter is or how much he would benefit the team is completely clueless.

He doesn't hit .300. He bunts/slaps about .290, has zero power, doesn't walk, and doesn't have a great SB percentage.

He sucks.

I disagree that he "sucks". There is definitely some value to Pierre as a player. .290 avg would have been good enough to be White Sox batting champion in 2007 over Jim Thome who finished around .275. I can't stand the .OBP religion that Beane has created. .OBP is important but there IS value to batting avg. Your avg is high when you get a BASE HIT! This has value! With plenty of ABs, Owens hit .264 which is about .030 less than what Pierre will hit. Pierre doesn't have power but power isn't what you're looking for in a leadoff man anyway. (Owens with his 1HR doesn't exactly scream power either)

Most importantly, Pierre puts the ball in play extremely well which is something the White Sox were terrible at doing in 2007 as we set records for strikeouts. Pierre also bunts the ball well which is another thing the 2007 White Sox were absolutely TERRIBLE at. (and he'd be bunting on a Roger Bossard field which means more bunt hits)

Pierre may not walk much but he is one of those pesky contact hitters who can foul off a lot of pitches and make the pitchers run up their pitch counts. Another thing to consider is that Orlando Cabrera led the AL in sacrifice hits in '07. With Cabrera in the 2 hole, he could move the speedy Pierre into scoring position (or 3rd) very frequently.

By no means am I the president of the Pierre fan club. The biggest concern for me about Pierre is his noodle throwing arm. I HATE having CFers who can't even hit the cut off man. Ideally, Pierre would make a better LF than CF but we don't really have a ton of options there and I'm pretty sure KW got Quentin to play in LF. Again, I would only want Pierre if the price is right (i.e. Dodgers eat some of the contract) because he is better than our internal options so far.

DickAllen72
12-07-2007, 05:25 PM
If LA throws a lot of cash our way, I'll take Pierre at a substantial discount over either Rowand at his rumored price or Jerry Owens starting in CF.

A Pierre-Cabrera 1-2 could work if Dye and AJ both hit, and since that's what we're pretty much banking on anyway by re-upping with both guys, it's worth a shot.

I'm guessing they would want Crede, but if we could persuade them to take Fields (and probably other prospects) instead, the move would fit a lot better in our "win now" mentality.

Then maybe you could trade a LHP for Raul Ibanez to play LF, too, leaving you with Ibanez-Pierre-Dye in the OF, Crede-Cabrera-Richar-Konerko in the IF, AJ behind the plate, and a rotation of Buehrle, Vazquez, Contreras, Floyd, Danks/Gio (whichever lefty doesn't go in the Ibanez deal, preferably Gio).

That team, IMO, is much better than the team we fielded in 2007, and it's certainly economically feasible.
This whole post was a joke, right? :?:

spawn
12-07-2007, 05:28 PM
If LA throws a lot of cash our way, I'll take Pierre at a substantial discount over either Rowand at his rumored price or Jerry Owens starting in CF.

A Pierre-Cabrera 1-2 could work if Dye and AJ both hit, and since that's what we're pretty much banking on anyway by re-upping with both guys, it's worth a shot.

I'm guessing they would want Crede, but if we could persuade them to take Fields (and probably other prospects) instead, the move would fit a lot better in our "win now" mentality.

Then maybe you could trade a LHP for Raul Ibanez to play LF, too, leaving you with Ibanez-Pierre-Dye in the OF, Crede-Cabrera-Richar-Konerko in the IF, AJ behind the plate, and a rotation of Buehrle, Vazquez, Contreras, Floyd, Danks/Gio (whichever lefty doesn't go in the Ibanez deal, preferably Gio).

That team, IMO, is much better than the team we fielded in 2007, and it's certainly economically feasible.
I want some of what you're smoking.

santo=dorf
12-07-2007, 05:58 PM
I also remember a lot of complaining on The Score from fans as well that we re-upped with Pods instead of Pierre.
Argument over.

Friends don't let friends listen to sports-blab. You honestly feel the average Score caller is a fine indicative of the average fan of the White Sox, or even the Cubs? :o:

ndgt10
12-07-2007, 05:59 PM
If LA throws a lot of cash our way, I'll take Pierre at a substantial discount over either Rowand at his rumored price or Jerry Owens starting in CF.

A Pierre-Cabrera 1-2 could work if Dye and AJ both hit, and since that's what we're pretty much banking on anyway by re-upping with both guys, it's worth a shot.

I'm guessing they would want Crede, but if we could persuade them to take Fields (and probably other prospects) instead, the move would fit a lot better in our "win now" mentality.

Then maybe you could trade a LHP for Raul Ibanez to play LF, too, leaving you with Ibanez-Pierre-Dye in the OF, Crede-Cabrera-Richar-Konerko in the IF, AJ behind the plate, and a rotation of Buehrle, Vazquez, Contreras, Floyd, Danks/Gio (whichever lefty doesn't go in the Ibanez deal, preferably Gio).

That team, IMO, is much better than the team we fielded in 2007, and it's certainly economically feasible.
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee41/ndgt10/_40981859_cooking.jpg

Danks for Ibanez.

Fields for Pierre and cash

Great idea! We trade away 2 of our best young players with good upside for 2 mediocre players about to be admitted into a nursing home.

That would definitely close the gap between us and the Tigers and Indians.

Frater Perdurabo
12-07-2007, 06:15 PM
I'd be OK with adding Pierre.

I could live with his lack of arm, especially if he was starting in left.

I'd like a 1-2 punch of Pierre and Cabrera.

Foulke You
12-07-2007, 07:14 PM
Argument over.

Friends don't let friends listen to sports-blab. You honestly feel the average Score caller is a fine indicative of the average fan of the White Sox, or even the Cubs? :o:
Quite true. The Score callers are pretty awful most of the time. I concede our flip flopping disagreement but not the Pierre sucks argument.:cool:

Foulke You
12-07-2007, 07:20 PM
If LA throws a lot of cash our way, I'll take Pierre at a substantial discount over either Rowand at his rumored price or Jerry Owens starting in CF.

A Pierre-Cabrera 1-2 could work if Dye and AJ both hit, and since that's what we're pretty much banking on anyway by re-upping with both guys, it's worth a shot.

I'm guessing they would want Crede, but if we could persuade them to take Fields (and probably other prospects) instead, the move would fit a lot better in our "win now" mentality.

Then maybe you could trade a LHP for Raul Ibanez to play LF, too, leaving you with Ibanez-Pierre-Dye in the OF, Crede-Cabrera-Richar-Konerko in the IF, AJ behind the plate, and a rotation of Buehrle, Vazquez, Contreras, Floyd, Danks/Gio (whichever lefty doesn't go in the Ibanez deal, preferably Gio).

That team, IMO, is much better than the team we fielded in 2007, and it's certainly economically feasible.
I definitely wouldn't want to trade Fields for Pierre. Miguel Cabrera was worth losing a young blue chipper like Fields but not Juan Pierre. The only way you can consider that move is if the Dodgers ate ALL of Pierre's contract and even then I'd have to give it a lot of thought.

Ibanez is a decent hitter and seems pretty clutch (against the Sox) but his glove is seriously lacking. If we were going to sacrifice defense in LF for offense we might as well put Fields out there and let Crede play 3rd base. It would be cheaper and you wouldn't have to give anyone up.

Sockinchisox
12-07-2007, 07:23 PM
Giving up Josh Fields for Juan Pierre would not be smart.

drewcifer
12-07-2007, 07:27 PM
I'd be OK with adding Pierre.

I could live with his lack of arm, especially if he was starting in left.

I'd like a 1-2 punch of Pierre and Cabrera.

Me too but he'd have to come with cash, though. And I don't think we're going to get that for Crede without giving up something else that can pitch and is big league ready, or awfully close.

Also, were you thinking Quentin in CF or still pursuing an FA? We're getting awfully stacked in the minors with "someday hopefully" outfielders if you kick them all down (Sweeney, Owens, Quentin, Anderson) and LA surely doesn't have a need for any of them....

Frater Perdurabo
12-08-2007, 07:49 AM
Me too but he'd have to come with cash, though. And I don't think we're going to get that for Crede without giving up something else that can pitch and is big league ready, or awfully close.

Also, were you thinking Quentin in CF or still pursuing an FA? We're getting awfully stacked in the minors with "someday hopefully" outfielders if you kick them all down (Sweeney, Owens, Quentin, Anderson) and LA surely doesn't have a need for any of them....

I hadn't thought that far ahead. Ideally I'd like to add Fukudome and play him in CF.

soxfanreggie
12-08-2007, 09:41 AM
This would be a last resort trade, and I don't think I could see it happen. Uribe and Anderson for Pierre and Cash (and a lot of it). Might help us clear out some roster spots that we need open and help them open a roster spot. He doesn't need to start if you get someone better, but he would provide some good competition for someone else in the OF and be an injury back-up.

alohafri
12-08-2007, 09:53 AM
Given the choice between Owens and Pierre, I'll take Owens, thank you very much.

PalehosePlanet
12-08-2007, 09:55 AM
Anyone suggesting that Josh Fields would go for Pierre is CRAZY!

Remember people: We would be doing them a favor. They gave him an idiotic contract (5/44) and are now stuck with it. They've been dissatisfied with him since June of last year. They would rather play Andre Either in LF than him.

The only way this happens is by us tossing LA a mid-level (at best) prospect and them paying for half his contract for the remaining 4 years. Or, they take some money off of our hands (Uribe or Crede) and pay us slightly less than half of Pierre's remaining contract.

Craig Grebeck
12-08-2007, 10:01 AM
I disagree that he "sucks". There is definitely some value to Pierre as a player. .290 avg would have been good enough to be White Sox batting champion in 2007 over Jim Thome who finished around .275. I can't stand the .OBP religion that Beane has created. .OBP is important but there IS value to batting avg. Your avg is high when you get a BASE HIT! This has value! With plenty of ABs, Owens hit .264 which is about .030 less than what Pierre will hit. Pierre doesn't have power but power isn't what you're looking for in a leadoff man anyway. (Owens with his 1HR doesn't exactly scream power either)

Most importantly, Pierre puts the ball in play extremely well which is something the White Sox were terrible at doing in 2007 as we set records for strikeouts. Pierre also bunts the ball well which is another thing the 2007 White Sox were absolutely TERRIBLE at. (and he'd be bunting on a Roger Bossard field which means more bunt hits)

Pierre may not walk much but he is one of those pesky contact hitters who can foul off a lot of pitches and make the pitchers run up their pitch counts. Another thing to consider is that Orlando Cabrera led the AL in sacrifice hits in '07. With Cabrera in the 2 hole, he could move the speedy Pierre into scoring position (or 3rd) very frequently.

By no means am I the president of the Pierre fan club. The biggest concern for me about Pierre is his noodle throwing arm. I HATE having CFers who can't even hit the cut off man. Ideally, Pierre would make a better LF than CF but we don't really have a ton of options there and I'm pretty sure KW got Quentin to play in LF. Again, I would only want Pierre if the price is right (i.e. Dodgers eat some of the contract) because he is better than our internal options so far.
Bull****. Juan Pierre ranked 203rd out of 216 players (who had at least 400 PA) in #pitches/PA. Pierre's 3.40 even ranked behind AJP!

That is absurdly bad.

ChiSoxPatF
12-08-2007, 10:52 AM
I must admit my initial reaction to this rumor was: :puking:

But looking over his career stats, quite frankly, it seems like over looking the noodle-arm may be necessary:
AVG SB OBP
.327 46 .378 - 2001 Col
.287 47 .332 - 2002 Col
.305 65 .361 - 2003 Fla
.326 45 .374 - 2004 Fla
.276 57 .326 - 2005 Fla
.292 58 .330 - 2006 ChC
.293 64 .331 - 2007 LaD
.301 54.5 .348 - Lifetime

If we fell in love Pods'
.290 59 .351 - 2005
.261 40 .330 - 2006

I'll take Pierre as a left-handed lead-off hitter. It seems quite comparable, both defensively and offensively, to Scott Podsednik while Scotty was igniting our offense.

I originally bought the Owens comparison but, quite frankly, we can't rely on our own homegrown prospects to maximize their potential and progress every season and that's what it would require for Owens to be a Juan Pierre.

If we get him + cash for Crede or a straight up deal for a mid-level prospect, I say :bandance:

rowand33
12-08-2007, 11:14 AM
Looks like there's more to this than my speculation:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/rumors/post/White-Sox-could-go-after-Pierre;_ylt=Av4DQ7awiD8IliXjHaPNYqaFCLcF?urn=mlb,5 6672

Remembering him with the Cubs and looking at his LA numbers, it seems like he kinda sucks in the first half and then goes on a tear in the second half to average out at about .290 now-a-days.

I remember wanting to trade for him in 2006 during his upswing (and scotty's requiem).

ChiSoxPatF
12-08-2007, 11:29 AM
Remembering him with the Cubs and looking at his LA numbers, it seems like he kinda sucks in the first half and then goes on a tear in the second half to average out at about .290 now-a-days.

You're right. In the last three years:
Avg OBP
.274 .315 - Pre-All Star Game
.302 .345 - Post-All Star Game

What Sox fans remember about Pierre "sucking" for the Cubs was he hit .258 w/ a .289 OBP in April then .226 with a .267 OBP for May. It seems like he ALWAYS struggles in May according to his historical stats.

After May, he hit .315 for the remainder of the season. Also, his hitting struggles don't seem to have an adverse effect on his ability to steal bases either.

He takes awhile to warm up but he seems like he'd be as solid of a leadoff hitter as Pods was in 2005.

Frater Perdurabo
12-08-2007, 11:39 AM
The "perfect" scenario would be if the Sox could stick Pierre in left and Anderson played up to his potential in CF, with Quentin and Owens getting plenty of starts as the backups.

Craig Grebeck
12-08-2007, 12:01 PM
The "perfect" scenario would be if the Sox could stick Pierre in left and Anderson played up to his potential in CF, with Quentin and Owens getting plenty of starts as the backups.
That makes no sense whatsoever. In what Brian Sabean run world would Juan Pierre start over Carlos Quentin? Even crazier, in a corner OF position? That is absolutely insane. Pierre's highest OPS over the last three years was .718. And that occurred in the NL Central.

If this team's biggest weakness is ability to get on base consistently, why would we acquire an expensive, overrated albatross like Juan Pierre and start him over a young guy whose biggest strength in the minors was OBP.

I am all for Mike Cameron in CF, Carlos Quentin in RF, and Jermaine Dye in LF. When Cameron is sitting out the first 25 games, give Anderson a chance to show where he has improved.

Cameron as a 1-2 year stopgap is so much better than acquiring Pierre and that awful, terrible, downright miserable contract.

santo=dorf
12-08-2007, 12:08 PM
Would people please stop trying to judge a player on freaking batting average? Juan Pierre/Alex Sanchez batting .290 is not the same as David Ortiz/Carlos Delgado batting .290.

OBP tells us the rate a player gets on base and how often he makes outs.

Adam Dunn batting .220 makes fewer outs than Juan Pierre batting .290.

comiskey2000
12-08-2007, 12:55 PM
Would people please stop trying to judge a player on freaking batting average? Juan Pierre/Alex Sanchez batting .290 is not the same as David Ortiz/Carlos Delgado batting .290.

OBP tells us the rate a player gets on base and how often he makes outs.

Adam Dunn batting .220 makes fewer outs than Juan Pierre batting .290.

Excellent post. Not only that but intangibles exist in baseball more than any other sport. Looking at stats will not tell the entire sotry. A speedy man at the top of the lineup like Pierre can create an energy which is baseball is imortant.

chaerulez
12-08-2007, 01:00 PM
I was excited about the buildup in your post, until your first line of "proof" featured a man with like 130 ABs in the big leagues and 105 of them came in September.

What a let down.

I'd rather have Pierre than Damon for million$ of reasons, Figgins is coming off his best career year BY FAR, and Sizemore is...well Sizemore. None of those is even an option (aside from the early talk about Damon and thank God that didn't happen).

If it wasn't for Pierre's contract, it'd be a fantastic trade.

Scottie Pods has a career OBP of .338. In 05, it was .349. His career OPS+ is 86.

How crappy was the trade for him? And let's not even get into comparing health... Pierre's numbers are just fine and I bring up Pods only for it's realistic comparative value (i.e. - Sizemore, Figgins, Ellsbury are not realistic as options to improve our team in 08).

I did say most of those players haven't had a career history of high OBP, it just so happened they did in 2007 so I believe it attributed a lot to their success. Like when Cotts and Politte had career years in 2005, no one expected that trend to continue, but regardless it had a huge amount of influence on how well the Sox did in 2005. Also I wasn't trying to say those players are viable options, I was implying that Pierre isn't that good and more times than not, a team will win despite his bat in the lineup instead of because of it.

If Pierre was making $1 million, maybe it's a good idea, but he's not so I don't see the difference between him and Jerry Owens. As for the guy who wants to trade Josh Fields for Juan Pierre, you want to trade a potential all star for again a guy with a career OPS+ of 84? And yes it has only been a small sample size, but Fields career OPS+ is 100. He's already a better offensive player than Pierre. Factor in their salaries, any team in MLB right now would rather have Fields than Pierre based on value alone.

JRIG
12-08-2007, 01:01 PM
Excellent post. Not only that but intangibles exist in baseball more than any other sport. Looking at stats will not tell the entire sotry. A speedy man at the top of the lineup like Pierre can create an energy which is baseball is imortant.

Of course, Juan Pierre at the top of the lineup also will cost you about 20 outs on the bases, as he's led the NL in caught stealing 4 of the last 5 years.

chaerulez
12-08-2007, 01:05 PM
Excellent post. Not only that but intangibles exist in baseball more than any other sport. Looking at stats will not tell the entire sotry. A speedy man at the top of the lineup like Pierre can create an energy which is baseball is imortant.

What???

"Create an energy"

How does that contribute to scoring runs? Do you mean he will steal bases? I hope so because stealing bases is the only thing Pierre does well above an average MLB player. Steal bases also means nothing if you can't get on base often or if your caught stealing rate is high.

If this "energy" you mean allows his team to feed off the fact that he is fast and somehow makes them play better, that's just not true.

nodiggity59
12-08-2007, 01:11 PM
I'd take Pierre for $4mil the next four years, playing left field.

Thus, the Dodgers would have to pay us $20mil of the $36mil.

In return I'd offer low ceiling prospects close to the majors, moderate ceiling prospects in the lower minors, or spare parts / relievers from our major league team (MacDougal?).

If they would do that deal it would work for us. But they never would b/c they probably won't admit how ****ty the Pierre contract is.

ChiSoxPatF
12-08-2007, 03:15 PM
Would people please stop trying to judge a player on freaking batting average? Juan Pierre/Alex Sanchez batting .290 is not the same as David Ortiz/Carlos Delgado batting .290.

OBP tells us the rate a player gets on base and how often he makes outs.

Adam Dunn batting .220 makes less outs than Juan Pierre batting .290.

Batting average still has a lot of value as a stat. Quite simply, a walk may get a batter on base too but it does not have the value as a single in certain circumstances - eg, a runner is on first base and a single advances him to third. Is this quantifiable in some elaborate Sabertric/Billy Beane/pat-myself-on-the-back statistic? Probably not, but anyone that watches the game can tell you this is the truth in many curcumstances.

Obviously comparing David Ortiz, Adam Dunn, and Carlos Delgado to Juan Pierre is ridiculous - their value is driving in runners and hitting home runs. Merely taking OBP as a stat takes out some of the more important elements of baseball - again, a lead-off hitter getting a single can have a greater effect on an inning than merely getting a walk. If a player makes 10-20 more outs in a season, thereby lowering his OBP, it doesn't mean he is definitely less valuable. How the majority of his at-bats effect a club is far more important than some number you attach to his name.

And as to "creating an energy," I think what Comiskey2000 means, and I think he is correct on this point, is the effect a stolen base threat has on an opposing team. Clearly the middle of the order in 2005 had a substantial boost from having Pods lead off. How many times did we see a pitcher eyeing first base when he should have been focusing on the plate? Good hitters take advantage of that and a legitimate stolen base threat like Pierre could provide that.

Yes, he gets caught stealing a lot but that goes hand-in-hand with being aggressive. I'd rather the Sox have someone leading off that is aggressive than a 5-10 SB, 0 CS lead off hitter that forces us to watch another base-to-base, boring, plodding club.

Is Pierre the panacea for this White Sox? Heck no. But I think the White Sox would benefit from him leading off.

ChiSoxPatF
12-08-2007, 03:16 PM
Sorry for the long post - a lot has been said in the last few posts and I felt compelled to respond.

santo=dorf
12-08-2007, 03:18 PM
Batting average still has a lot of value as a stat. Quite simply, a walk may get a batter on base too but it does not have the value as a single in certain circumstances - eg, a runner is on first base and a single advances him to third.
Too bad almost all of Pierre's hits never leave the infield which won't allow the runners to advances two bases, and considering he would hit leadoff, his opportunities to advance runners greatly diminishes.

He's overpaid and overrated. Pass.

Frater Perdurabo
12-08-2007, 04:27 PM
Why not play Pierre in left?

The Sox won a 110 games (99+11) and a World Series with a leadoff hitter having a Pierre-like season in left field.

Pierre's "average" season is comparable to Pods' 2005 season. Pierre may not be an OBP machine, but his career .348 OBP is 10 points higher than Pods' career .338 OBP and only 3 points below Pods' 2005 .351 OBP.

Plus, Pierre is durable; in every one of his full MLB seasons he's played at least 156 games and stolen a minimum of 45 bases. He's also a career .300 hitter who averages 200 hits and 54 steals per season. For comparison, Pods averages 55 steals and 156 hits in a 162-game season, but Pods has proven he's unable to play a full season!

Meanwhile, Pierre is a "lock" to do what he does, even moving to the AL; the ability to bunt and beat out infield hits doesn't diminish when a player faces tougher or different pitchers.

If you could guarantee that Pods would have a season like his 2005 every year for the next four years, would you pay him $9 million a year to do it? I would in a heartbeat.

Pierre has proven that he's basically the same player as Pods was in 2005, except Pierre doesn't get hurt.

Put Pierre and Cabrera together, and they will make all kinds of RISP opportunities for Thome, Paulie and Dye.

Pierre would give the Sox a legitimate base-stealing threat who could overcome even the arm of Ivan Rodriguez.

If the Sox could get Pierre straight up for Crede this offseason, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

jabrch
12-08-2007, 04:37 PM
Agreed. I'm not sure what Jerry Owens people were watching last year but the one I watched has no chance of ever hitting .300 in a season.

I'm not sure about that either....He looked solid in the last month of the season.

Either way, if the price is right, I'll take a guy who has a very strong chance of hitting .300 and gets himself both on base and into scoring position without depending on other people.

If you can score one run with only 1 hit, it really helps you win ballgames rather than always having to bank on stringing 3 hits together to score runs, or counting on XBH...

I remember the formula we had in 2005 - and I think it worked pretty well despite what all the experts say. We either could get a guy on, steal second, then sac him home or get him home on a base hit, OR we could hit 200 HRs to create bigger innings. Last year we lost the first half of that equation and the second half was inconsistent.

I don't mind any of the guys we are talking about...Pierre, Owens, CarlosQ, Rowand, whatever...I'm just tired of the teethmashing about various baseball philosophies. I just want productive baseball players...regardless of how they get that sort of production or what measurements we use to measure it.

btrain929
12-08-2007, 04:40 PM
With us acquiring Quentin, Pierre would have to play CF, which is somewhat scary with his arm. I'm a fan of his offensive numbers to slot into our leadoff spot. Of course, with any deal, it'll come down to 2 things:
1) what would we have to give up to acquire him?
2) would LA eat any of his salary? I would hope so unless we send people with contracts over there as well (Crede and Macdougal, for example).

JRIG
12-08-2007, 07:01 PM
Put Pierre and Cabrera together, and they will make all kinds of RISP opportunities for Thome, Paulie and Dye.

Pierre would give the Sox a legitimate base-stealing threat who could overcome even the arm of Ivan Rodriguez.


Overcome the arm of Ivan Rodriguez? With his number of caught stealings I'd just hope he could overcome the arm of Victor Martinez.

Lukin13
12-08-2007, 07:23 PM
Batting average still has a lot of value as a stat. Quite simply, a walk may get a batter on base too but it does not have the value as a single in certain circumstances - eg, a runner is on first base and a single advances him to third.

Your theory is pretty weak.

A double or triple scores that same runner and batting average doesn't reflect that.

If you argued OPS against OBP great, you might be onto something. But batting average is not nearly as good as OBP at measuring a player's effectiveness as a hitter.

Lukin13
12-08-2007, 07:26 PM
With us acquiring Quentin, Pierre would have to leadoff, which is somewhat scary with his arm.

You mean he would have to play centerfield... right?

Or are you just concerned that when Pierre fouls a ball off his foot that he will not have enough of an arm to throw the ball back to the pitcher effectively?

btrain929
12-09-2007, 02:12 AM
You mean he would have to play centerfield... right?

Or are you just concerned that when Pierre fouls a ball off his foot that he will not have enough of an arm to throw the ball back to the pitcher effectively?

:rolling::rolling::rolling:
Nice job catching that. Yes, I meant him in CF scares me cuz of his arm....

chaerulez
12-09-2007, 05:16 AM
I find the argument that we should get Juan Pierre because he is a similar player to Scott Podsednik is weak. Pods made some clutch hits in the postseason and stole a lot of bases otherwise. Because we had a success with player like that in 2005, doesn't mean it's going to work again.

tick53
12-09-2007, 08:24 AM
I used to laugh at Pierre when he was with the Cubs. If he come here it only goes to show what a tight assed organization this is. Nice job Williams, give the northsiders the keys to the kingdom.

Frater Perdurabo
12-09-2007, 08:31 AM
I find the argument that we should get Juan Pierre because he is a similar player to Scott Podsednik is weak. Pods made some clutch hits in the postseason and stole a lot of bases otherwise. Because we had a success with player like that in 2005, doesn't mean it's going to work again.

I'm not saying the Sox will win the 2008 (or 2009, 2010 or 2011) World Series with Pierre in LF. But it's a fact that the Sox won the 2005 World Series with a Pods producing Pierre-like numbers in LF.

It is obvious that the Sox won in 2005 because of their pitching. If they ever win it again, it will be because of their pitching. But Pods didn't doom the Sox in 2005. In fact, he and Iguchi often played an integral role in the offense scoring enough runs early on when PK, Dye, Crede and Rowand were struggling. Therefore, having a low-SLG, weak-armed leadoff hitter like Pierre in LF will not doom the Sox in the future.

Given what I have read here, the Sox do not have any viable leadoff hitter candidates anywhere in the minors. Pierre can be very good leadoff hitter for the duration of his contract, has ZERO history of injury, and is the closest thing to a lock to put of the same numbers every year.

If KW acquires Pierre, Ozzie can pencil him into the lineup 162 times a year for the next four years and KW won't have to worry about finding a leadoff hitter for a while.

Tragg
12-09-2007, 10:13 AM
I'm not saying the Sox will win the 2008 (or 2009, 2010 or 2011) World Series with Pierre in LF. But it's a fact that the Sox won the 2005 World Series with a Pods producing Pierre-like numbers in LF.
Pods had an OBP of .350 in 2005...Pierre has had OBPs of .326, ,320, and .331 the last 3 years. He doesn't walk near enough.
I agree with your premise - a slapper that can steal and get on base is good enough for leadoff. Unfortunately Pierre doesn't get on base near enough. .350 is really a minimum for a slapper to be useful.

Oblong
12-09-2007, 10:43 AM
Just because you get a 4 when you hit on 17 doesn't mean you should hit on 18 hoping for a 3.

jabrch
12-09-2007, 11:18 AM
If all else were equal, can someone tell me how many more runs a hitter with a 350 OPB in this lineup would score than a guy with a .320 OBP?

I'm guessing no more than a dozen and have halfbaked math to explain it - but I cant figure out why people get so convinced for or against a player over a fewruns per season...

Taliesinrk
12-09-2007, 12:43 PM
Just because you get a 4 when you hit on 17 doesn't mean you should hit on 18 hoping for a 3.

But what if you play roulette instead?

santo=dorf
12-09-2007, 01:52 PM
Pods had an OBP of .350 in 2005...Pierre has had OBPs of .326, ,320, and .331 the last 3 years. He doesn't walk near enough.
I agree with your premise - a slapper that can steal and get on base is good enough for leadoff. Unfortunately Pierre doesn't get on base near enough. .350 is really a minimum for a slapper to be useful.
Keep in mind Pods was only good for the Sox in the first half of 2005 (before the typcial injury) and had a .369 OBP. Remember how much different the team (and in 2007) was when the leadoff man puts up and OBP between .325-.330?

JermaineDye05
12-09-2007, 01:57 PM
Keep in mind Pods was only good for the Sox in the first half of 2005 (before the typcial injury) and had a .369 OBP. Remember how much different the team (and in 2007) was when the leadoff man puts up and OBP between .325-.330?

only in the first half of 2005?

Have your forgotten about this...

http://pictopia.com/perl/get_image?provider_id=314&size=550x550_mb&ptp_photo_id=382596

santo=dorf
12-09-2007, 01:58 PM
If all else were equal, can someone tell me how many more runs a hitter with a 350 OPB in this lineup would score than a guy with a .320 OBP?

I'm guessing no more than a dozen and have halfbaked math to explain it - but I cant figure out why people get so convinced for or against a player over a fewruns per season...
No you can't otherwise you would be labelled as a "propellerhead."

Having a higher OBP doesn't just mean getting on base more, it also means making outs a lesser rate giving guys like Thome, Konerko and Dye a chance to knock in a run.

Perhaps you should go Soxfest and ask Ozzie.

"Why does it do any good if you're a leadoff guy who can run but can't hit or get on the bases? A lot of people are wrong about the leadoff man. A leadoff hitter should have a higher on-base percentage than anyone else."

Ozzie Guillen ~~~Back in August 2007.

Let's hear the spin as amazingly you actually disagree with management on this one.

Tragg
12-09-2007, 02:00 PM
If all else were equal, can someone tell me how many more runs a hitter with a 350 OPB in this lineup would score than a guy with a .320 OBP?

I'm guessing no more than a dozen and have halfbaked math to explain it - but I cant figure out why people get so convinced for or against a player over a fewruns per season...
Because it makes a difference. A dozen runs out of one player is a lot of runs. Why did Jorge Bell have a gazillion RBIs in 1993? Because Tim Raines got on base at a huge clip.

And the Sox have 3 really good power hitters - the Sox should try to jam as much OBP in front of them as possible. (there's also an argument to put OBP in the 9 hole for that reason; maybe Richar). Strangely, last year, the prime qualfication of hitting in front of Thome was being able to bunt or make outs to the side Ozzie tells you to. Outs are the last thing that the Sox should be seeking in front of Dye-Thome and Konerko.
We would also have to trade talent to acquire this 10Mill .320 OBP hitter. I would much rather stick with your boy Owens than pay for Pierre.

santo=dorf
12-09-2007, 02:00 PM
only in the first half of 2005?

Have your forgotten about this...

http://pictopia.com/perl/get_image?provider_id=314&size=550x550_mb&ptp_photo_id=382596
Yes I remember the additional SINGLE at-bat. :rolleyes: Do I really need to make a Geoff Blum reference here as well? You don't play a playoff team the same way you play a regular season team.

JermaineDye05
12-09-2007, 02:04 PM
Yes I remember the additional SINGLE at-bat. :rolleyes: Do I really need to make a Geoff Blum reference here as well? You don't play a playoff team the same way you play a regular season team.

Yeah I know. On that note I think I'll go watch the 'Sox Pride' DVD. It's been about a year and a half since I last re-lived that.

santo=dorf
12-10-2007, 06:31 PM
Here's an interesting article from after the 2005 season that calculated the most overrated hitters. Tragg might find it interesting as their are some White Sox connections on there.

http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2005/12/oops_here_it_is.php

(Batting Average > League Average) + (On-Base Percentage < League Average) + (Slugging Average < League Average) = Overrated Offensive Players
These Overrated Offensive Players are also known as OOPs.
We're not in the business of adding more acronyms into the broth of alphabet soup that already exists. OOPs is different. It's not one of these newfangled stats. Instead, it's just a fun way to identify those players who aren't nearly as good as advertised.

By definition, the players who meet the above criterion are singles hitters who only walk on occasion and rarely slug home runs. In other words, batting average makes up the lion's share of their value. Put another way, the qualifying hitters have low Isolated Discipline (IsoD) and Isolated Power (IsoP). IsoD equals OBP minus AVG, and IsoP equals SLG minus AVG. These isolated stats tell you what's not a part of batting average.


Erstad is the only player who made the 2005 and All-Active OOPs teams. In the comments section at 6-4-2 (http://6-4-2.blogspot.com/2005/12/angels-acquire-jc-romero-dfa-josh-paul.html#comments) earlier this month, my son corrected another reader who called newly acquired Angels reliever J.C. Romero the team's LOGGY. Joe remarked that "Romero is a LOOGY, not a LOGGY. Erstad is the team's LOGGY (Low Offense, Gold Glove Yokel)."

guillen4life13
12-10-2007, 06:43 PM
I used to laugh at Pierre when he was with the Cubs. If he come here it only goes to show what a tight assed organization this is. Nice job Williams, give the northsiders the keys to the kingdom.

What kingdom? The Cubs are in a different league than the White Sox and, other than trading with each other or the six games they play during the season, they are two totally different entities whose player personnel moves have no effect on the other team (other than driving up salaries, as was the case last year). This organization is a lot less "tight assed" than you give it credit for, and if you don't believe me, go visit the Twin Cities and Mr. Carl Pohlad, or you can come down here and meet good ole Jeffrey Loria.

And Williams hasn't even done or said anything to hint at an imminent Juan Pierre acquisition, so I don't know why you're knocking him about it already.

I'm not saying the Sox will win the 2008 (or 2009, 2010 or 2011) World Series with Pierre in LF. But it's a fact that the Sox won the 2005 World Series with a Pods producing Pierre-like numbers in LF.

It is obvious that the Sox won in 2005 because of their pitching. If they ever win it again, it will be because of their pitching. But Pods didn't doom the Sox in 2005. In fact, he and Iguchi often played an integral role in the offense scoring enough runs early on when PK, Dye, Crede and Rowand were struggling. Therefore, having a low-SLG, weak-armed leadoff hitter like Pierre in LF will not doom the Sox in the future.

Given what I have read here, the Sox do not have any viable leadoff hitter candidates anywhere in the minors. Pierre can be very good leadoff hitter for the duration of his contract, has ZERO history of injury, and is the closest thing to a lock to put of the same numbers every year.

If KW acquires Pierre, Ozzie can pencil him into the lineup 162 times a year for the next four years and KW won't have to worry about finding a leadoff hitter for a while.

Pierre is not a lock to put up consistent numbers. The two things that may be relatively consistent are his average and SB totals. I already wrote this in a previous post: Pierre is a hit or miss lead off hitter because his OBP is as likely to be in the .370+ range as it is to be in the .320-.330 range for any given season. The last three years, he has performed to the tune of the latter. I suppose that's some consistency, just not the type the Sox would be looking for (I hope). Getting Pierre would be a gamble that could either stink up the joint, or be the the best lead off hitter the Sox have had since I was born. It's just very hard to predict which Pierre will show up.

Frater Perdurabo
12-10-2007, 09:45 PM
Pierre is not a lock to put up consistent numbers. The two things that may be relatively consistent are his average and SB totals. I already wrote this in a previous post: Pierre is a hit or miss lead off hitter because his OBP is as likely to be in the .370+ range as it is to be in the .320-.330 range for any given season. The last three years, he has performed to the tune of the latter. I suppose that's some consistency, just not the type the Sox would be looking for (I hope). Getting Pierre would be a gamble that could either stink up the joint, or be the the best lead off hitter the Sox have had since I was born. It's just very hard to predict which Pierre will show up.

I'd like to have better OBP out of a leadoff hitter, but there's only one Ichiro out there, and he's not available. Sizemore, Granderson, Reyes, Rollins, Hanley Ramirez? Not available.

Who are the other available high OBP, base-stealing leadoff hitters? Figgins or Willits? I've advocated trading PK to get one of them but that's like sacrificing a sacred cow around here. Crawford? He doesn't lead off and what do the Sox have that the Rays want? Brian Roberts? What would the Orioles want? Damon is over the hill. Ryan Freel is injury prone. Who else is available? Furcal? The Sox already have two shortstops.

As far as I'm concerned, Pierre is one of the few options out there who would be an upgrade over Owens, and who would be available for a reasonable price, and who plays a position (OF) where the Sox still have an opening.

guillen4life13
12-10-2007, 10:24 PM
I'd like to have better OBP out of a leadoff hitter, but there's only one Ichiro out there, and he's not available. Sizemore, Granderson, Reyes, Rollins, Hanley Ramirez? Not available.

Who are the other available high OBP, base-stealing leadoff hitters? Figgins or Willits? I've advocated trading PK to get one of them but that's like sacrificing a sacred cow around here. Crawford? He doesn't lead off and what do the Sox have that the Rays want? Brian Roberts? What would the Orioles want? Damon is over the hill. Ryan Freel is injury prone. Who else is available? Furcal? The Sox already have two shortstops.

As far as I'm concerned, Pierre is one of the few options out there who would be an upgrade over Owens, and who would be available for a reasonable price, and who plays a position (OF) where the Sox still have an opening.

If Pierre plays the way he's played for the last two years, you can get comparable production and OBP from Owens, who I expect to improve this coming season for a very significant cost difference. Neither is a show stopper in the field. If Pierre comes and gives a .330 OBP with 60 steals for $8M in 2008, would it really be so great an upgrade over Owens, whose 2007 stats extrapolated over a season would have been a .324 OBP with around 60 steals also. As far as I know, Owens would make the MLB minimum. Is a +.006 OBP difference really worth $7.5M?

It's just a huge gamble, and the last two teams to gamble on Pierre have gotten burned. We can tempt ourselves with the idea of Pierre reverting to his classic form and leading the Sox to another glorious World Series, but I just don't know if you can bank on that. But to say that Pierre is consistent couldn't be further from the truth.

If Pierre is the only available upgrade then I think it's just as logical to stay in house with Owens and use the money to take care of another hole in the team.

DickAllen72
12-10-2007, 10:27 PM
Owens is a higher percentage base stealer than Pierre.

HBaines03
12-10-2007, 11:16 PM
First time posting........I have been pondering the Pierre/Owens leadoff hitter for awhile now and I agree with all comments but I do want to throw a few more stats out there for everyone to comment on. I am concerned with Owens being our leadoff hitter with less than one year under his belt compared to Pierre who is proven. Owens has the advantage of the cost factor by quite a bit. OBP for both is not what anyone would really like to have, but the thing I keep looking at is that Pierre strikes out at almost a major league low compared to Owens on pace of 100+ strikeouts for the year. Pierre also lead the majors and has been very high at sacrificing (hits/flys) compared to any leadoff hitter out there. Most leadoff hitters sacrifice 1-5 times per year where Pierre was at 22 last year. He moves runners when needed and puts the ball in play even if it is an out. The chance for errors are there compared to someone walking back to the dugout 100+ times a year. Stolen bases are about even and the thing I look at is not how many but at least the threat which keeps pitchers thinking about the runner and losing focus on the hitter, always a plus. Not saying I have sided with Pierre but I think I would rather have a guy who does a few of the little things that help and can at least put the ball in play. Just my 2 cents.....

PalehosePlanet
12-10-2007, 11:23 PM
First time posting........I have been pondering the Pierre/Owens leadoff hitter for awhile now and I agree with all comments but I do want to throw a few more stats out there for everyone to comment on. I am concerned with Owens being our leadoff hitter with less than one year under his belt compared to Pierre who is proven. Owens has the advantage of the cost factor by quite a bit. OBP for both is not what anyone would really like to have, but the thing I keep looking at is that Pierre strikes out at almost a major league low compared to Owens on pace of 100+ strikeouts for the year. Pierre also lead the majors and has been very high at sacrificing (hits/flys) compared to any leadoff hitter out there. Most leadoff hitters sacrifice 1-5 times per year where Pierre was at 22 last year. He moves runners when needed and puts the ball in play even if it is an out. The chance for errors are there compared to someone walking back to the dugout 100+ times a year. Stolen bases are about even and the thing I look at is not how many but at least the threat which keeps pitchers thinking about the runner and losing focus on the hitter, always a plus. Not saying I have sided with Pierre but I think I would rather have a guy who does a few of the little things that help and can at least put the ball in play. Just my 2 cents.....

First off: Welcome aboard!!

I agree with you but the only way I would do this is if the Dodgers picked up half his salary. They made the mistake of overpaying him in the first place, the onus should stay on them --- partially.

Owens has a place on this team, but definitely as a reserve.

PorkChopExpress
12-11-2007, 05:16 AM
I really don't see us trading Crede before spring training, so I think what we are going to see is if Owens shows improvement during spring training, he will and should get the job over Pierre just for the cost benefit. Crede can then be shipped somewhere else for much needed bullpen help. I don't see Pierre on this team next year unless Owens falters in ST. That is all assuming someone else is not acquired in the meantime.

Frater Perdurabo
12-11-2007, 07:23 AM
First time posting........I have been pondering the Pierre/Owens leadoff hitter for awhile now and I agree with all comments but I do want to throw a few more stats out there for everyone to comment on. I am concerned with Owens being our leadoff hitter with less than one year under his belt compared to Pierre who is proven. Owens has the advantage of the cost factor by quite a bit. OBP for both is not what anyone would really like to have, but the thing I keep looking at is that Pierre strikes out at almost a major league low compared to Owens on pace of 100+ strikeouts for the year. Pierre also lead the majors and has been very high at sacrificing (hits/flys) compared to any leadoff hitter out there. Most leadoff hitters sacrifice 1-5 times per year where Pierre was at 22 last year. He moves runners when needed and puts the ball in play even if it is an out. The chance for errors are there compared to someone walking back to the dugout 100+ times a year. Stolen bases are about even and the thing I look at is not how many but at least the threat which keeps pitchers thinking about the runner and losing focus on the hitter, always a plus. Not saying I have sided with Pierre but I think I would rather have a guy who does a few of the little things that help and can at least put the ball in play. Just my 2 cents.....

Great post!

In addition to what you've articulated so well, I'll never understand why others constantly denigrate batting average. To hear some tell it, a .290 batting average is chopped liver. Pierre is a career .301 hitter. He only has one full season under .285. The last two years he's hit .292 and .293. He's consistently among the league leaders in hits. That tells me that he can get himself on base without relying on the pitcher throwing crap - which good starters don't do!

Because Pierre can bunt for hits (something Owens has not mastered yet), he can get on base against the best pitchers the Sox face - like Santana - who don't walk hitters! Facing Santana or another tough pitcher in the AL Central the Sox face many times each year, with Pierre, now all of a sudden the Sox have a runner on base - and likely on second base - with Cabrera, Thome and Paulie coming up the plate. I like the chances of scoring a run with a fast runner in scoring position a lot more than being forced to hope for a solo homer, or stringing together three hits.

spiffie
12-11-2007, 10:33 AM
Great post!

In addition to what you've articulated so well, I'll never understand why others constantly denigrate batting average. To hear some tell it, a .290 batting average is chopped liver. Pierre is a career .301 hitter. He only has one full season under .285. The last two years he's hit .292 and .293. He's consistently among the league leaders in hits. That tells me that he can get himself on base without relying on the pitcher throwing crap - which good starters don't do!
When you generally lead the league or are near the league lead in AB's, you would have to be terrible to not be among the league leaders in hits. He also usually is among the league leaders in outs.

Because Pierre can bunt for hits (something Owens has not mastered yet), he can get on base against the best pitchers the Sox face - like Santana - who don't walk hitters! Facing Santana or another tough pitcher in the AL Central the Sox face many times each year, with Pierre, now all of a sudden the Sox have a runner on base - and likely on second base - with Cabrera, Thome and Paulie coming up the plate. I like the chances of scoring a run with a fast runner in scoring position a lot more than being forced to hope for a solo homer, or stringing together three hits.
You do realize Juan Pierre had EIGHT bunt hits last year? Not twenty-eight. Not eighteen. EIGHT. Out of 28 attempts to bunt for a hit. He had the lowest success rate of anyone with 10 or more attempts to bunt for a hit.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6446

btrain929
12-11-2007, 11:06 AM
I really don't see us trading Crede before spring training, so I think what we are going to see is if Owens shows improvement during spring training, he will and should get the job over Pierre just for the cost benefit. Crede can then be shipped somewhere else for much needed bullpen help. I don't see Pierre on this team next year unless Owens falters in ST. That is all assuming someone else is not acquired in the meantime.

I would hope our much needed bullpen help arrives to our team before spring training.....

russ99
12-11-2007, 11:21 AM
If the Sox can acquire another good hitter to play outfield, we might start out with Owens in the lineup, just not at leadoff.

I could see Cabrera starting out in the leadoff spot (until Crede gets dealt) and put Fields in the #2 like last year, or the new OF could hit there.

Then Owens could bat 9th and be the speedy guy at the back of the lineup with less pressure to get on base. I think it would be a big Anderson-like risk to trust Owens with leadoff duties next season. Knowing Ozzie's love for Ozuna, he'd likely lead off vs. leftys anyway.

I expect Kenny to add a few arms for the pen after the holidays when the prices go down.

soxinem1
12-11-2007, 11:23 AM
We already have a younger version of Pierre in Jerry Owens. The only difference is that Pierre is tougher to strike out.

I actually believe Owens would be a better baserunner. While Pierre has had some high SB totals, his sucess rate is really pretty low.

The only things about Pierre I like is his ability to bunt, make contact, and get INF hits. I know Pierre didn't bunt a lot last year, but his little INF slaps resulted in quite a few hits.

He is not the most prolific CF's either, as he plays the OF like Pods, putting his hands up when he's by a wall. God forbid he bumps his chest and gets dirt on his uniform from playing defense.

If this was the option, I'd rather go with Corey Patterson. He has shown solid SB skills the last two years, costs less, and is a by far better OF that Pierre. Patterson has more offensive skills as well.

Patterson is not a solid lead-off candidate, but he could develop into one of the steals of this year's FA class.

spiffie
12-11-2007, 11:31 AM
We already have a younger version of Pierre in Jerry Owens. The only difference is that Pierre is tougher to strike out.

I actually believe Owens would be a better baserunner. While Pierre has had some high SB totals, his sucess rate is really pretty low.

The only things about Pierre I like is his ability to bunt, make contact, and get INF hits. I know Pierre didn't bunt a lot last year, but his little INF slaps resulted in quite a few hits.

He is not the most prolific CF's either, as he plays the OF like Pods, putting his hands up when he's by a wall. God forbid he bumps his chest and gets dirt on his uniform from playing defense.

If this was the option, I'd rather go with Corey Patterson. He has shown solid SB skills the last two years, costs less, and is a by far better OF that Pierre. Patterson has more offensive skills as well.

Patterson is not a solid lead-off candidate, but he could develop into one of the steals of this year's FA class.
Pierre had 19 infield hits, of which 8 were bunt hits. So he had 11 other infield hits where his speed compensated for his lack of any power.

santo=dorf
12-11-2007, 05:21 PM
Great post!

In addition to what you've articulated so well, I'll never understand why others constantly denigrate batting average. To hear some tell it, a .290 batting average is chopped liver. Pierre is a career .301 hitter. He only has one full season under .285. The last two years he's hit .292 and .293. He's consistently among the league leaders in hits. That tells me that he can get himself on base without relying on the pitcher throwing crap - which good starters don't do!

Because Pierre can bunt for hits (something Owens has not mastered yet), he can get on base against the best pitchers the Sox face - like Santana - who don't walk hitters! Facing Santana or another tough pitcher in the AL Central the Sox face many times each year, with Pierre, now all of a sudden the Sox have a runner on base - and likely on second base - with Cabrera, Thome and Paulie coming up the plate. I like the chances of scoring a run with a fast runner in scoring position a lot more than being forced to hope for a solo homer, or stringing together three hits.
Using batting average only to judge a hitter is completely stupid. He doesn't walk which means in the plate appearances in which he is not walking he gets a hit 29% of the time (and judging by his low SLG%, it's a single, which is said to be as good as a walk) and the other 71% of the time he makes an out. You only get three outs per inning. Why waste them?
When you generally lead the league or are near the league lead in AB's, you would have to be terrible to not be among the league leaders in hits. He also usually is among the league leaders in outs.


You do realize Juan Pierre had EIGHT bunt hits last year? Not twenty-eight. Not eighteen. EIGHT. Out of 28 attempts to bunt for a hit. He had the lowest success rate of anyone with 10 or more attempts to bunt for a hit.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6446
Exactly. 8 bunt hits? that's a little over 1 a month. BIG ****ING DEAL :rolleyes: ...and we're supposed to give up talent and millions of dollars for this garbage?

Pierre had 19 infield hits, of which 8 were bunt hits. So he had 11 other infield hits where his speed compensated for his lack of any power.
..and over the course of a season, 700 at-bats for Pierre, that comes out to 1.6%. Hopefully this ends the love affair with the overrated Pierre.

But he's a grinder, Ozzie loves him, he steals bases, and gets a lot of hits!!!!

AJ Hellraiser
12-12-2007, 04:30 PM
I know, I know.. my sources said Rowand all along.. but can't blame him for taking 60 mill over 5 years from a team near his hometown...

So, next rumor is Crede for Juan Pierre....

hi im skot
12-12-2007, 04:31 PM
Sigh.

esbrechtel
12-12-2007, 04:34 PM
why? :dunno: Juan isn't much better than Owens....IMO at least maybe Owens will get better I think Pierre is definitely on the decline...

soxfan43
12-12-2007, 04:36 PM
Only way this deal works is if LA picks up his entire salary. At this point, Pierre isn't much better than Owens and he makes 50 times more money.

WhiteSox5187
12-12-2007, 04:38 PM
I'd rather stick with Owens...I never thought I'd say that. :(:

southsideirish71
12-12-2007, 04:41 PM
Say no to bantam weight aging speedsters who's entire worth is based on their batting average alone.

I would rather have Owens/Anderson/whatever over giving up anything in our system + money that Pierre would be paid.