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Sockinchisox
12-05-2007, 11:45 PM
just got a text from MLB.com

2 yrs, 36 mil.

Link:http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071205&content_id=2319266&vkey=hotstove2007&fext=.jsp

Domeshot17
12-05-2007, 11:49 PM
Didn't want him, but running out of options, I have a feeling we are going to see a lot of Jerry Owens

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 11:50 PM
That would have been a very fair price for Jones.

Really wish Kenny would have made that deal, but I suspect, in the long run, we might be glad he didn't.

Sockinchisox
12-05-2007, 11:50 PM
Hunter
Cabrera
Andruw Jones

Fun time to be a White Sox fan aint it.

thomas35forever
12-05-2007, 11:51 PM
Finally, a decent asking price for a player. That's more like a bargain nowadays.

WSI is about to lash out at Kenny even more. I'm still not at the point where everything comes back to him though.

Tragg
12-05-2007, 11:52 PM
Seems pretty reasonable deal to me.

Sign Fuko. If we don't get him, I'd pass on Rowand.

I'd make sure we're as stout defensively as possible.

Lorenzo Barcelo
12-05-2007, 11:55 PM
If Brian Simmons never tore that achillies 7 years ago we wouldn't have a problem in cf. Whats he doing trying to stretch out a double.

Lorenzo Barcelo
12-05-2007, 11:55 PM
hmm 18 mill a year for Jones, albeit for two years, 18 mill a year for hunter, look for rowand to want around 13 mill or 14 mill. There's one center fielder left Kenny..... Better whip out the Jerry Owens jersey....

ChiSoxFan35
12-06-2007, 12:16 AM
Too rich for my blood

Sockinchisox
12-06-2007, 12:18 AM
Too rich for my blood

That's the market.

HebrewHammer
12-06-2007, 12:25 AM
http://pbgl.ggl.com/pbgl/images/Corey_Patterson_profile.jpg

"Did someone say they wanted a centerfielder?"

btrain929
12-06-2007, 12:53 AM
Too rich for my blood

He's younger and better than Hunter and Rowand, and he's only on the hook for 2 years instead of 5.

I've been saying this whole offseason he was not going to get a 5 year 100 mil contract, and that his down year last year gave us the best opportunity to get him for a lot cheaper than he's really worth. There's no reason why we shouldn't have gone after him for a 2-3 year contract.

But, he's not the type of player KW wanted to go after.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

This is the only thing I disagree with as far as KW's maneuvers this offseason. The only way he can offset this is if we land Fukudome.

JRIG
12-06-2007, 01:01 AM
Wow.

Is there any bigger indictment of the ridiculous contracts the Angels and Dodgers gave Gary Matthews and Juan Pierre last year than the fact that both teams felt the need to upgrade at the position again this year?

Reminds me of an old Bill Veeck saying...something about the high price of mediocrity.

WhiteSox5187
12-06-2007, 03:05 AM
Kenny...the clock is ticking. Ya gotta do something about CF and FAST.

ChiSoxFan35
12-06-2007, 03:30 AM
That's the market.

Yeah, but I don't have to like it! :D I don't know, the average scares me off a bit, but yeah, with the hole we have, I wouldn't have complained about it

So was the Marlins owner right, did Ichiro ruin baseball? http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/07/12/will-ichiros-new-contract-ruin-baseball/ ;)

jabrch
12-06-2007, 05:51 AM
That would have been a very fair price for Jones.

I can't see committing that sort of $ to a guy coming off of the disasterour season he just had.

nccwsfan
12-06-2007, 07:29 AM
HUNTER
CABRERA
ANDRUW JONES
Fun time to be a White Sox fan aint it.

Hunter- we were the high bidder until the last minute when another team came in and overpaid for his services.

Cabrera- we were among several teams in the running to get him until another team came in and traded away their future for possibly two years of his services.

Andruw Jones- he wasn't even a consideration. His numbers sucked in a contract year and he strikes out a ton, something the White Sox need badly.

Pretty simple- go after Fukudome. If you don't get him go after Rowand. If you don't get him make a trade. If all else fails rebuild the bullpen and rotation. Don't wave the white flag in December.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 09:00 AM
I can't see committing that sort of $ to a guy coming off of the disasterour season he just had.

I had seen a different number when I typed it.


But frankly I still don't think 18 million is excessive. Jones has been consistently good. Even in his worst year (last year) he still managed to get on base at a very good clip.

I would have used that as leverage to sign him longer (maybe 4 years at 17 million)....but for a Boras client and one of the best defensive CF's in baseball with 50 HR potential, I think 18 million is very fair--ESPECIALLY after the deal Hunter signed.

Jjav829
12-06-2007, 09:10 AM
Wow.

Is there any bigger indictment of the ridiculous contracts the Angels and Dodgers gave Gary Matthews and Juan Pierre last year than the fact that both teams felt the need to upgrade at the position again this year?

Reminds me of an old Bill Veeck saying...something about the high price of mediocrity.

Valid point, but in fairness, both needs desperately needed to add a bit bat in the middle of their lineup. It just so happens that the best hitters available this offseason play center.

But I'm sure both teams are regretting the contracts they gave to Pierre and Matthews.

Also, the market for Rowand just got a little smaller. If Fukudome chooses the Padres, it seems likely Rowand will be back in a Sox uniform.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 09:14 AM
If the Angels needed a big bat in the middle of their lineup, why on earth did they sign Hunter?

nccwsfan
12-06-2007, 09:15 AM
Valid point, but in fairness, both needs desperately needed to add a bit bat in the middle of their lineup. It just so happens that the best hitters available this offseason play center.

But I'm sure both teams are regretting the contracts they gave to Pierre and Matthews.

Also, the market for Rowand just got a little smaller. If Fukudome chooses the Padres, it seems likely Rowand will be back in a Sox uniform.

Two questions- 1) Has Fukudome been rumored to go to the Pads? I've read the White Sox, Cubs, and Royals but not the Padres. 2) Wouldn't the Padres keep Cameron around and wait out his 25 game suspension?

You're right though- Rowand's slowly running out of places to play.

Jjav829
12-06-2007, 09:32 AM
If the Angels needed a big bat in the middle of their lineup, why on earth did they sign Hunter?

Because he's actually a big bat given what they've had in the middle of their lineup in recent years. Hunter's 28 HRs would have led the Angels last year; 1 ahead of Vlad and 10 ahead of Gary Matthews Jr., second on the team with 18 HRs. His .839 OPS would have been 3rd on the team, .001 behind Casey Kotchman.

Two years ago, Hunter's 31 HRs would have been 2nd on the team behind Vlad, 8 ahead of the surprising Juan Rivera at 23. His OPS would have been 3rd on the team among regular players.

The Angels have had decent offenses recently, but they've lacked in power. Last year they finished 6th in baseball in runs scored, but 27th in home runs. In 2006, they were 18th in baseball in runs scored and 25th in home runs.

Two questions- 1) Has Fukudome been rumored to go to the Pads? I've read the White Sox, Cubs, and Royals but not the Padres. 2) Wouldn't the Padres keep Cameron around and wait out his 25 game suspension?

You're right though- Rowand's slowly running out of places to play.

There have been more rumors involving the Padres than the Sox. Right now, it seems like a two horse race with the Cubs and Padres.

Cameron is a free agent, so they'd have to sign him first. The Padres badly need to improve their offense. So if they think Fukudome is an upgrade over Cameron, then it makes sense for them to go after him. They could always play him in a corner spot and re-sign Cameron to play center.

infohawk
12-06-2007, 10:39 AM
Hunter- we were the high bidder until the last minute when another team came in and overpaid for his services.

Cabrera- we were among several teams in the running to get him until another team came in and traded away their future for possibly two years of his services.

Andruw Jones- he wasn't even a consideration. His numbers sucked in a contract year and he strikes out a ton, something the White Sox need badly.

Pretty simple- go after Fukudome. If you don't get him go after Rowand. If you don't get him make a trade. If all else fails rebuild the bullpen and rotation. Don't wave the white flag in December.
Short of a superstar, impact player (which seems unlikely), the Sox need to add .OBP wherever they can. I agree with KW about Jones in that regard. The Sox had too many strikeouts last year, which contributed to a lack of baserunners. Ideally, whomever we get needs an above average .OBP.

SBSoxFan
12-06-2007, 01:03 PM
Even in his worst year (last year) he still managed to get on base at a very good clip.

:?: .311 OBP last year. He's been all over the map with OBP in his career. Since becoming a full-time player 11 years ago, he's had 4 seasons of .360+, 2 seasons between .340 and .350, 4 below .330, and 1 at .338. His career OBP is .342. For comparison, Rowands is .343, but he's been all over the map too.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 01:05 PM
:?: .311 OBP last year. He's been all over the map with OBP in his career. Since becoming a full-time player 11 years ago, he's had 4 seasons of .360+, 2 seasons between .340 and .350, 4 below .330, and 1 at .338. His career OBP is .342. For comparison, Rowands is .343, but he's been all over the map too.

His OPS+ was 86. And that was by far his worst year.

As comparison, average OPS+ is 100. Obviously a bad year, but not abysmal. And that was by far his worst year.

Want to compare his best year to Rowand's best year? Or his 3 best years to Rowand's three best years? Or his career #'s to Rowand's? Or his defense to Rowand's defense?

HawkDJ
12-06-2007, 01:09 PM
Well I'm expecting a barrage of anti-KW posts, but I believe Andruw Jones has said many times he wants to stay in the NL. I don't know if there is anything KW could've done about that.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 01:10 PM
A similar player is Vernon Wells--Wells had actually a lower OPS+ than Jones in 2007, but has a very similar career otherwise--similar offensive #'s, both play great defense at CF. Wells is younger than Jones by two years

You think Wells wouldn't have been worth 18 million if he had signed THIS offseason? Especially given what Hunter signed for?

soxfanreggie
12-06-2007, 01:10 PM
While I would rather not pay $18 million to a CF, we might have to shell out much more than we planned on. I see this as one more step towards the remarriage of the Sox and Rowand unless we can swoop in and get Fukudome.

Maybe we can get some credit with him if we ship Uribe over to his old team in Japan and continue to pay his salary for the year.

SBSoxFan
12-06-2007, 01:31 PM
His OPS+ was 86. And that was by far his last year.

As comparison, average OPS+ is 100. Obviously a bad year, but not abysmal. And that was by far his worst year.

Want to compare his best year to Rowand's best year? Or his 3 best years to Rowand's three best years? Or his career #'s to Rowand's? Or his defense to Rowand's defense?

Not really. I have no argument that Jones is an all around better player than Rowand, and I think they'll be paid accordingly. However, you changed the entire context of your original post. I assume you did that because even you could admit that a .311 OBP is not getting "on base at a very good clip."

Just for kicks, Jone's best OPS+ years were 125, 126, and 136; Rowand's were 102, 123, and 130. Their career OPS+ are 113 and 106 for Jones and Rowand, respectively. I don't know how much better that makes Jones than Rowand. Is it linear? And, as I mentioned they're career OBP's are equivalent.

Defensively, Jones is much better than average in CF (RFg = 2.68 and lgRFg = 2.19), while Rowand is slightly above average (RFg = 2.41 and lgRFg = 2.35).

Probably nothing significant in those numbers anyone didn't already figure, but they also have no bearing on the context of your original post.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 02:16 PM
Not really. I have no argument that Jones is an all around better player than Rowand, and I think they'll be paid accordingly. However, you changed the entire context of your original post. I assume you did that because even you could admit that a .311 OBP is not "getting on at a good clip."

Just for kicks, Jone's best OPS+ years were 125, 126, and 136; Rowand's were 102, 123, and 130. Their career OPS+ are 113 and 106 for Jones and Rowand, respectively. I don't know how much better that makes Jones than Rowand. Is it linear? And, as I mentioned they're career OBP's are equivalent.

Defensively, Jones is much better than average in CF (RFg = 2.68 and lgRFg = 2.19), while Rowand is slightly above average (RFg = 2.41 and lgRFg = 2.35).

Probably nothing significant in those numbers anyone didn't already figure, but they also have no bearing on the context of your original post.

My wording was flawed when I said getting on base. What I mean was, despite his .241 average he still got on base 31 pct of the time...which meant he was still walking 7 percent of the time...which is pretty good....I should have worded it a little better. He still walked at a good clip, I guess

But I shifted it to a better metric anyway--so there :tongue:

SBSoxFan
12-06-2007, 02:20 PM
My wording was flawed when I said getting on base. What I mean was, despite his .241 average he still got on base 31 pct of the time...which meant he was still walking 7 percent of the time...which is pretty good....I should have worded it a little better. He still walked at a good clip, I guess

But I shifted it to a better metric anyway--so there :tongue:

Well fine. :tongue:

esbrechtel
12-06-2007, 02:37 PM
Kenny...the clock is ticking. Ya gotta do something about CF and FAST.

Isn't Rob Mackowiack still available?

Red Barchetta
12-06-2007, 03:02 PM
Fun time to be a White Sox fan aint it.


Time for "The Kids Can Play - Part II" slogan....:rolleyes:

Foulke You
12-06-2007, 03:14 PM
http://pbgl.ggl.com/pbgl/images/Corey_Patterson_profile.jpg

"Did someone say they wanted a centerfielder?"
http://www.hobsplace.com/images/CocoCrisp.jpg
"Don't forget about me! I'm better than that Patterson fellow and I have a cooler name and cooler hair."

champagne030
12-06-2007, 03:35 PM
http://www.hobsplace.com/images/CocoCrisp.jpg
"Don't forget about me! I'm better than that Patterson fellow and I have a cooler name and cooler hair."

He's cooler 'cause he wears his hat cocked. I take him if we could sign him as a FA for what he's making, but Boston seems to think he's worth Gio and others so I'll pass.

asindc
12-06-2007, 03:37 PM
He's cooler 'cause he wears his hat cocked. I take him if we could sign him as a FA for what he's making, but Boston seems to think he's worth Gio and others so I'll pass.

If Boston thinks he's worth Gio, they are delusional.:rolleyes:

Foulke You
12-06-2007, 03:41 PM
If Boston thinks he's worth Gio, they are delusional.:rolleyes:
Yeah, no way is Crisp worth Gio. I might give them Charlie Haegar for Crisp but not Gio or Broadway.

MCHSoxFan
12-06-2007, 04:08 PM
Didn't want him, but running out of options, I have a feeling we are going to see a lot of Jerry Owens

Ownes will be our CFer IMO.

TheVulture
12-06-2007, 04:29 PM
Cabrera- we were among several teams in the running to get him until another team came in and traded away their future for possibly two years of his services.


Yeah, the tigers ARE screwed!

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 04:32 PM
He's cooler 'cause he wears his hat cocked. I take him if we could sign him as a FA for what he's making, but Boston seems to think he's worth Gio and others so I'll pass.

I hate it when people disrespect fashion!

thedudeabides
12-06-2007, 04:43 PM
His OPS+ was 86. And that was by far his worst year.

As comparison, average OPS+ is 100. Obviously a bad year, but not abysmal. And that was by far his worst year.

Want to compare his best year to Rowand's best year? Or his 3 best years to Rowand's three best years? Or his career #'s to Rowand's? Or his defense to Rowand's defense?

Do you want to compare his weight to Rowand's? :D:

Jones is still a good CF, but defensively the last couple of years he has regressed. He has 11 seasons in MLB, which makes him play a little older than he is. I've heard people talking that many teams were scared of him because they fear his downfall is going to be similar to Griffey's. Hard and fast. That's why nobody wanted to give him more than two years. I'm glad the Sox didn't.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 04:46 PM
Do you want to compare his weight to Rowand's? :D:

Yeah! Rowand's a pipsqueak!!!!:redneck


Jones is still a good CF, but defensively the last couple of years he has regressed.

His defense is still among the top 5 in baseball. Highlight reels as well as defensive metrics support that.

You'll be hardpressed finding either anecdotal or statistical evidence to say the same about Rowand unless it's "Remember that one game against the Yankees!" or "He hit a wall in Phillie!"


He has 11 seasons in MLB, which makes him play a little older than he is.

I've never seen any statistical evidence to support that years in MLB iare more taxing than 11 years in the minors and college ball


I've heard people talking that many teams were scared of him because they fear his downfall is going to be similar to Griffey's. Hard and fast. That's why nobody wanted to give him more than two years. I'm glad the Sox didn't.

Teams are rather silly, then, since Griffey's decline was injury related...

thedudeabides
12-06-2007, 04:58 PM
fquaye149,

I am not turning this into another of the 50,000 Rowand discussions. I was making a joke about how Jones is getting fat.

I was making comments that I heard on TV and radio why no GM's, except the Dodgers at 2 years, were willing to give him a multi-year contract. Now I know if I address one of your responses I will back every word up with facts or I will get a multi quote response.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 05:05 PM
fquaye149,

I am not turning this into another of the 50,000 Rowand discussions. I was making a joke about how Jones is getting fat.

I was making comments that I heard on TV and radio why no GM's, except the Dodgers at 2 years, were willing to give him a multi-year contract. Now I know if I address one of your responses I will back every word up with facts or I will get a multi quote response.

Oh in that case:

He is a little chunky:cool:

nccwsfan
12-06-2007, 05:21 PM
Yeah, the tigers ARE screwed!

Don't remember saying that- I think I said

we were among several teams in the running to get him until another team came in and traded away their future for possibly two years of his services.


They traded several of their best prospects for two years of Cabrera and two years of Willis. If they don't win it all in the next two years and Cabrera heads elsewhere for more $$$ then it was all for squat. Detroit's lineup is stellar but their pitching and defense is average, and it might not be enough to get them over the hump. If you want to give Detroit the trophy be my guest- I don't think they've secured a thing.

Mohoney
12-07-2007, 12:53 AM
Not really. I have no argument that Jones is an all around better player than Rowand, and I think they'll be paid accordingly. However, you changed the entire context of your original post. I assume you did that because even you could admit that a .311 OBP is not getting "on base at a very good clip."

Just for kicks, Jone's best OPS+ years were 125, 126, and 136; Rowand's were 102, 123, and 130. Their career OPS+ are 113 and 106 for Jones and Rowand, respectively. I don't know how much better that makes Jones than Rowand. Is it linear? And, as I mentioned they're career OBP's are equivalent.

Defensively, Jones is much better than average in CF (RFg = 2.68 and lgRFg = 2.19), while Rowand is slightly above average (RFg = 2.41 and lgRFg = 2.35).

Probably nothing significant in those numbers anyone didn't already figure, but they also have no bearing on the context of your original post.

Andruw Jones can hit for much more power, though. Add that to the significant edge defensively and the much lengthier proven track record of success, and it's about an $8 million per year difference, in my eyes.

In my opinion, it probably would be more than $8 million per year difference, though, because I can't see giving Aaron Rowand $10 million per year.

I thought 3 years at $50 million would be a fair market value for Jones after Ichiro signed his extension, but then the goofy Byrnes extension happened and Hunter signed for that goofy money in Anaheim. In fact, I thought $75 million for an annual injury risk like Hunter was way too much, but I would have lived with it if Kenny was adamant about signing him.

pierzynski07
12-07-2007, 09:31 AM
Wow.

Is there any bigger indictment of the ridiculous contracts the Angels and Dodgers gave Gary Matthews and Juan Pierre last year than the fact that both teams felt the need to upgrade at the position again this year?

Reminds me of an old Bill Veeck saying...something about the high price of mediocrity.
Who was the Angels DH last year?

Dodgers? Yeah they ****ed up.

SBSoxFan
12-07-2007, 09:40 AM
Andruw Jones can hit for much more power, though. Add that to the significant edge defensively and the much lengthier proven track record of success, and it's about an $8 million per year difference, in my eyes.

In my opinion, it probably would be more than $8 million per year difference, though, because I can't see giving Aaron Rowand $10 million per year.

I thought 3 years at $50 million would be a fair market value for Jones after Ichiro signed his extension, but then the goofy Byrnes extension happened and Hunter signed for that goofy money in Anaheim. In fact, I thought $75 million for an annual injury risk like Hunter was way too much, but I would have lived with it if Kenny was adamant about signing him.

I'm not going to run any numbers, but Jones appears to be a much greater risk offensively, looking at the apparently large deviations in his OPS+. Although he offers a much higher ceiling, there's the chance he'll tank a la last year, whereas Rowand may be more consistent.

I don't know how much more Jones will get than Rowand, but I'd love to have the difference as my salary!

And, by the way, I read this morning that Jones' contract will be $36.2M not $36M, making him more highly paid, per year, than Hunter. Apparently that was important to someone (Borass). :rolleyes:

fquaye149
12-07-2007, 10:03 AM
I'm not going to run any numbers, but Jones appears to be a much greater risk offensively, looking at the apparently large deviations in his OPS+. Although he offers a much higher ceiling, there's the chance he'll tank a la last year, whereas Rowand may be more consistent.

I don't know how much more Jones will get than Rowand, but I'd love to have the difference as my salary!

And, by the way, I read this morning that Jones' contract will be $36.2M not $36M, making him more highly paid, per year, than Hunter. Apparently that was important to someone (Borass). :rolleyes:

Rowand is a much greater INJURY risk though, although if the rumors are true that he's not allowed to ride his dirtbike, those risks go slightly down

SBSoxFan
12-07-2007, 10:10 AM
Rowand is a much greater INJURY risk though, although if the rumors are true that he's not allowed to ride his dirtbike, those risks go slightly down

I thought he stopped riding after he almost killed himself (in 2003?). However, there's still the whole running into walls thing, and playing tag with the local kids.

fquaye149
12-07-2007, 10:14 AM
I thought he stopped riding after he almost killed himself (in 2003?). However, there's still the whole running into walls thing, and playing tag with the local kids.

That little Johnny Franklin down the street plays too rough! You stay away from him Aaron!