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Sockinchisox
12-06-2007, 12:02 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-071205sox,1,6148020.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but this quote really ticked me off.


"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us," Williams said.

Better position to contend with US?

I read that as if he is saying we were better than them as the offseason began.

I don't know his actual tone when he said that so I may be jumping the gun.

JermaineDye05
12-06-2007, 12:07 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-071205sox,1,6148020.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but this quote really ticked me off.



Better position to contend with US?

I read that as if he is saying we were better than them as the offseason began.

I don't know his actual tone when he said that so I may be jumping the gun.

The quote confuses me as well, Kenny could be basing it on the white sox record against the Tigers. If I remember correctly The White Sox have really taken it to the Tigers for the past couple of seasons. Either way I don't understand it.

JB98
12-06-2007, 12:07 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-071205sox,1,6148020.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but this quote really ticked me off.



Better position to contend with US?

I read that as if he is saying we were better than them as the offseason began.

I don't know his actual tone when he said that so I may be jumping the gun.

I'm pretty sure the Tigers are looking more at competing with the Red Sox and Indians. They don't give a dead moose's last **** about our Sox right now.

Frontman
12-06-2007, 12:15 AM
Geez louise, gang. Its the job of a General Manager to believe the team he is building is better than the rest of the competition. What did you expect him to say,

"Oh hell yeah, the Tigers are now lights out better than we are. Quite frankly, there's not point of arguing it. The White Sox have ZERO chance of contending next year. But please come out and support our team!"

Get off his back already. I'm all for questioning him signing/releasing/trading players, but for him to say that the Tigers are now as competitive as the Sox isn't much more than PR commentary.

Save McCuddy's
12-06-2007, 12:17 AM
Kenny really needs to grow the **** up. Stop taking everything so personally and panicking to protect your ego -- it's pretty ****ing embarrassing for the rest of us.

akg633
12-06-2007, 12:18 AM
Kenny:
"For us, it's not as much about impact superstar guys we are looking for," Williams added. "It's a baseball player, another player who can give you quality defense and hard-nosed at-bats."

I wish the mentality was " For us it's about impact superstar guys that give us the quality defense and hard nosed at bats" Its like we are trying to be a team that is hard to beat, not the team that you wish you could beat. It is what it is I guess.

JB98
12-06-2007, 12:19 AM
Kenny really needs to grow the **** up. Stop taking everything so personally and panicking to protect your ego -- it's pretty ****ing embarrassing for the rest of us.

There is a way for him to silence his critics: Make some more moves to improve this club that lost 90 games last year and looked terrible in doing so.

KW is doing a lot of talking and blustering.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 12:21 AM
Geez louise, gang. Its the job of a General Manager to believe the team he is building is better than the rest of the competition. What did you expect him to say,

"Oh hell yeah, the Tigers are now lights out better than we are. Quite frankly, there's not point of arguing it. The White Sox have ZERO chance of contending next year. But please come out and support our team!"

Get off his back already. I'm all for questioning him signing/releasing/trading players, but for him to say that the Tigers are now as competitive as the Sox isn't much more than PR commentary.

Bull****. It's the job of the GM to make appropriate personnel decisions based on what will be helpful to the team both in the long term and the short term. Part of that is recognizing when you are a weak(er) team going into the season.

To be fair, I doubt Kenny really believes the Tigers are "Chasing us"....and I suspect this is just him saying he believes in the team, a la Lovie saying the Bears's goal is the playoffs a week ago, but it's still quite silly that he would say it.

WhiteSox5187
12-06-2007, 12:22 AM
Geez louise, gang. Its the job of a General Manager to believe the team he is building is better than the rest of the competition. What did you expect him to say,

"Oh hell yeah, the Tigers are now lights out better than we are. Quite frankly, there's not point of arguing it. The White Sox have ZERO chance of contending next year. But please come out and support our team!"

Get off his back already. I'm all for questioning him signing/releasing/trading players, but for him to say that the Tigers are now as competitive as the Sox isn't much more than PR commentary.
There's a difference between believing in your team and protecting yourself and your guys from criticism to just flat out arrogance. Kenny's comment (while maybe meant tongue in cheek) comes off as just arrogant. And we're in no position to be arrogant right now.

If Kenny wants to fire back, FINE, you know how he should do it? GO OUT AND SIGN A ****ING CENTERFIELDER OR A LEADOFF MAN!

BadBobbyJenks
12-06-2007, 12:22 AM
:threadsucks
AND
:threadblows:

Lorenzo Barcelo
12-06-2007, 12:26 AM
This thread doesnt blow at all, everything that is being said is true......K-dub talks more than any other GM in baseball.

Domeshot17
12-06-2007, 12:29 AM
the sad thing is Kenny has torn people up. He is such a hot and cold GM. Some can't stand the way he says he does not tolerate losing but continues too, and others think hes the best thing since sliced bread because of the world series. I don't think either are wrong, but its tough with him. The one thing we know is the guy has proven he would rather (1) go with an aging vet then a kid and (2) he would rather see an oft-injured, never put it together guy come here and catch lightning in a bottle then make a big splash. He has never been a major player in free agency. In 2004-2005 offseason he got his 2 retreads in Dye and El Duque, took a chance on AJ when no one else would touch him and got Gooch because no one else offered. All worked out. Then 2005-2006 comes, not so much, and 2007 and Erstad and Terrero was just a disaster.

At this point, honestly, are we better then last year? Only if everyone takes it a step up. Now there are rumors we are passing on everyone and looking at more retreads like Luis Gonzalez. I don't know. I trusted Kenny when he said "This is just the first of many, I have a plan, a big plan, and Cabrera is the first piece of the puzzle" or whatever that qoute was. But I don't honestly think his plan was to keep swinging and missing. And honestly, if we have another 70-80 win season, he needs to be let go.

Frontman
12-06-2007, 12:29 AM
This thread doesnt blow at all, everything that is being said is true......K-dub talks more than any other GM in baseball.

Err. No. I would have to say both Cashman and Epstien do a hell of a lot more talking than KW does. Its just they have unlimited budgets to back up the talk.

Frontman
12-06-2007, 12:31 AM
Bull****. It's the job of the GM to make appropriate personnel decisions based on what will be helpful to the team both in the long term and the short term. Part of that is recognizing when you are a weak(er) team going into the season.

To be fair, I doubt Kenny really believes the Tigers are "Chasing us"....and I suspect this is just him saying he believes in the team, a la Lovie saying the Bears's goal is the playoffs a week ago, but it's still quite silly that he would say it.

No sillier than saying a season is lost a full 6 months before it starts.

Wait, never mind.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 12:32 AM
the sad thing is Kenny has torn people up. He is such a hot and cold GM. Some can't stand the way he says he does not tolerate losing but continues too, and others think hes the best thing since sliced bread because of the world series. I don't think either are wrong, but its tough with him. The one thing we know is the guy has proven he would rather (1) go with an aging vet then a kid and (2) he would rather see an oft-injured, never put it together guy come here and catch lightning in a bottle then make a big splash. He has never been a major player in free agency. In 2004-2005 offseason he got his 2 retreads in Dye and El Duque, took a chance on AJ when no one else would touch him and got Gooch because no one else offered. All worked out. Then 2005-2006 comes, not so much, and 2007 and Erstad and Terrero was just a disaster.

At this point, honestly, are we better then last year? Only if everyone takes it a step up. Now there are rumors we are passing on everyone and looking at more retreads like Luis Gonzalez. I don't know. I trusted Kenny when he said "This is just the first of many, I have a plan, a big plan, and Cabrera is the first piece of the puzzle" or whatever that qoute was. But I don't honestly think his plan was to keep swinging and missing. And honestly, if we have another 70-80 win season, he needs to be let go.

You've got to think at this point we're at least as good as last year, even if we don't have returns to career averages from our lousy players, since our lineup's improved.

It hurts losing Garland, but I don't think that's going to offset our improved lineup....

Plus Linebrink immediately improves our bullpen...possibly our most brutal component in 07

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 12:33 AM
No sillier than saying a season is lost a full 6 months before it starts.

Wait, nevermind.

Why would you confuse the fact that we're not going to contend in 08 with the season being "lost"

There is plenty to gain in 08, but to expect contention for a playoff spot, much less a world series, is preposterous

Lorenzo Barcelo
12-06-2007, 12:37 AM
The lack of scouting and player development has finally caught up to Kenny. What players has he developed since he's been here since 2000??? Brian Anderson? Andy Gonzalez? Royce Ring? Ryan Sweeney?? (he's getting there) I can think of one difference-maker and thats Josh Fields, and even then, he hasn't even played a full season. The reason we don't have MC is because K-dub didn't have the horses to send to Florida. He's been the GM for seven full seasons.......ONE playoff appearance!

Frontman
12-06-2007, 12:38 AM
Why would you confuse the fact that we're not going to contend in 08 with the season being "lost"

There is plenty to gain in 08, but to expect contention for a playoff spot, much less a world series, is preposterous

The whole point of any organization is to get into the playoffs. If you aren't contending, then the season is a "lost" season.

But without seeing who exactly is the 5 man rotation; without seeing who else will be signed, without seeing how our young talent may have improved during the off season in Winter Ball, and not seeing how the veterans may bounce back from a piss-poor 2007; we have a ton of folks convinced on this site that they can't contend.

My point is why throw in the towel now? And if we as fans should, what was the point of the 88 years leading up to 2005?

Look, if I was a betting man, I wouldn't put good money on the Sox winning anything at this point; as I haven't seen how the team has been assembled yet. It would be the same as betting on a NASCAR race when the car doesn't have wheels, an engine, or a crew chief yet.

jabrch
12-06-2007, 12:40 AM
There is a way for him to silence his critics:

That's absolute bull****. There is no way to silence his critics. Sox fans have become such whiney *****ers that no matter what he does, we will complain eventually.

Domeshot17
12-06-2007, 12:41 AM
You've got to think at this point we're at least as good as last year, even if we don't have returns to career averages from our lousy players, since our lineup's improved.

It hurts losing Garland, but I don't think that's going to offset our improved lineup....

Plus Linebrink immediately improves our bullpen...possibly our most brutal component in 07

True, but my problem lies here. I know we aren't done, Im saying as of today, I realize it will change:

The Indians should continue to get better as these kids build their confidence. You can't expect a real drop from them

The Tigers just added 6-8 wins onto last year

The Twins are getting Liriano back, have a lot of young pitching got Young to absorb the loss of hunter on offense and if they move santana may actually be better with the amount of young talent heading their way. Lets say they are 50/50 to improve

Now talk the Royals. They have a solid young team with a fair amount of veterans. They have a nice little pitching staff but a shakey bullpen. Would 500 be out of the realm if guys like Butler-Gordon-Bannister-Teahen etc. all continue to flourish and they keep getting contributions from Grienke Meche Grudz. If Kyle Davies picks it up they could be deep.

Now we have the same thing as the royals. A ton of what ifs. If Quentin plays to his ability if Thome stays healthy if PK and Dye return to form if Danks Floyd Broadway take it a step up if the bullpen gets it **** straight. Kenny has a lot of work to do before we can even safely call ourselves a 3rd place team, because 3-5 is a crapshoot right now.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 12:41 AM
The lack of scouting and player development has finally caught up to Kenny. What players has he developed since he's been here since 2000??? Brian Anderson? Andy Gonzalez? Royce Ring? Ryan Sweeney?? (he's getting there) I can think of one difference-maker and thats Josh Fields, and even then, he hasn't even played a full season. The reason we don't have MC is because K-dub didn't have the horses to send to Florida. He's been the GM for seven full seasons.......ONE playoff appearance!

One World Series title.

Let's also keep in mind that Kenny's draft picks and scouting HAVE netted us some quality performers

1.) Danks looks to be quality. Masset could prove decent--both netted from McCarthy
2.) Vazquez came almost directly from Chris Young
3.) Jenks was a brilliant scouting move
4.) Thornton could still bounce back and have a decent season
5.) Reed, Olivo and Morse brought Freddy...
6.) Olivo was a shrewd pickup, retrospectively speaking
7.) Cotts was a smart throwin decision on the Koch deal

Kenny's scouting's been fine...the problem is in drafting and development, it seems

Frontman
12-06-2007, 12:42 AM
That's absolute bull****. There is no way to silence his critics. Some Sox fans have become such whiney *****ers that no matter what he does, we will complain eventually.

Quoted for truth, with a bit of a fix. I don't complain over things beyond the players/managers/GM's control. A ton of Sox fans act as if Kenny had a gun to Hunter's head, and if he didn't sign with the Sox, Kenny should of shot him and just didn't have the guts to do it.

Hunter made the decision to go elsewhere. It wasn't like the Sox didn't offer him anything.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 12:43 AM
The whole point of any organization is to get into the playoffs. If you aren't contending, then the season is a "lost" season.

But without seeing who exactly is the 5 man rotation; without seeing who else will be signed, without seeing how our young talent may have improved during the off season in Winter Ball, and not seeing how the veterans may bounce back from a piss-poor 2007; we have a ton of folks convinced on this site that they can't contend.

My point is why throw in the towel now? And if we as fans should, what was the point of the 88 years leading up to 2005?

Look, if I was a betting man, I wouldn't put good money on the Sox winning anything at this point; as I haven't seen how the team has been assembled yet. It would be the same as betting on a NASCAR race when the car doesn't have wheels, an engine, or a crew chief yet.

That is a dangerous mentality for a GM to have. There's a lot to be gained in what you would call "lost" seasons, and pretty much any team that wins a world series has to gain those things from so-called "lost" seasons to get there...

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 12:47 AM
True, but my problem lies here. I know we aren't done, Im saying as of today, I realize it will change:

The Indians should continue to get better as these kids build their confidence. You can't expect a real drop from them

The Tigers just added 6-8 wins onto last year

The Twins are getting Liriano back, have a lot of young pitching got Young to absorb the loss of hunter on offense and if they move santana may actually be better with the amount of young talent heading their way. Lets say they are 50/50 to improve

Now talk the Royals. They have a solid young team with a fair amount of veterans. They have a nice little pitching staff but a shakey bullpen. Would 500 be out of the realm if guys like Butler-Gordon-Bannister-Teahen etc. all continue to flourish and they keep getting contributions from Grienke Meche Grudz. If Kyle Davies picks it up they could be deep.

Now we have the same thing as the royals. A ton of what ifs. If Quentin plays to his ability if Thome stays healthy if PK and Dye return to form if Danks Floyd Broadway take it a step up if the bullpen gets it **** straight. Kenny has a lot of work to do before we can even safely call ourselves a 3rd place team, because 3-5 is a crapshoot right now.

That's why it's difficult to imagine ANY possible transactions between now and season-start that would lead to us contending.

We have about 6 holes to fill (leadoff/CF, LF, 2B, Sp, 3-4 bullpen, to name a few) and very limited resources to do it with.

We've seen with the Cabrera offer that the only trade bait we have is currently penciled in for the mlb roster, which leaves our very limited bankroll as our only likely way to fill anywhere from 4-6 holes with very little prospects in sight. There's Fukodome, Rowand, and Patterson as possibilities at CF, there's a handful of corner OF's available, Dave Roberts as a potential 2B and leadoff solution (though he's likely already going to the Cubs), an indeterminate amount of options at SP and bullpen.

Meanwhile, while we have (in my opinion, though it's certainly debatable) improved slightly this offseason, every other team in the central but the Royals has improved at least as much. And we were a 70 win team last year.

It just doesn't seem possible....the answers aren't out there.

Could Kenny pull a miracle deal? Sure...but then again, we're about as good off hoping Burly'll win 30 games or Thome hits 60 HR

Tragg
12-06-2007, 12:49 AM
That is a dangerous mentality for a GM to have. There's a lot to be gained in what you would call "lost" seasons, and pretty much any team that wins a world series has to gain those things from so-called "lost" seasons to get there...
The marlins and diamondbacks did.
The Sox didnt' throw seasons away. We were trying hard to win from 00-04. The Cards didn't. The Red Sox didn't. The Braves stayed good for nearly 20 years, via stable starting pitching a couple of hitters, but otherwise moveable parts.
Now you can't put all your eggs into winning "this year" every year.

And the problem with dumping all of the veterans is that you may never recover. Crowds stay away, revenue plummets, budgets are cut and it becomes a never ending spiral probalby until the team gets sold.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 12:51 AM
The marlins and diamondbacks did.
The Sox didnt' throw seasons away. We were trying hard to win from 00-04. The Cards didn't. The Red Sox didn't. The Braves stayed good for nearly 20 years, via stable starting pitching a couple of hitters, but otherwise moveable parts.
Now you can't put all your eggs into winning "this year" every year.

And the problem with dumping all of the veterans is that you may never recover. Crowds stay away, revenue plummets, budgets are cut and it becomes a never ending spiral probalby until the team gets sold.

It would have been nice to "Stay good" and I wish we had...but 2007 took care of that dream.

At this point, we need to think about how we can get back to contention. It's unrealistic to think it's going to be a one season makeover.

People will say "but in 2005" till their face turns blue. But people forget: we were pretty damned good in 2004....

Domeshot17
12-06-2007, 12:54 AM
That's absolute bull****. There is no way to silence his critics. Sox fans have become such whiney *****ers that no matter what he does, we will complain eventually.

Kenny Brings it on himself. Every year its the same crap about winning and we are a championship contending team and he doesn't take losing.

DURING A 72 WIN SEASON we had billboards about partying like its 2005

At what point is it time for Kenny to **** or get off the pot. 2005 was awesome, but if we won't let our players live on their 2005 reputation, why the **** are we letting Kenny?

Frontman
12-06-2007, 12:54 AM
That is a dangerous mentality for a GM to have. There's a lot to be gained in what you would call "lost" seasons, and pretty much any team that wins a world series has to gain those things from so-called "lost" seasons to get there...

And we just had two season of not making the playoffs. Only a completely blind, deaf, and dumb man would not of noticed that the 2007 squad DL visitors like Pods and Erstad and a bullpen that put the ball in locations far easier reached with one of these

http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/55/63/23296355.jpg

Kenny and Ozzie have had a few seasons to learn and gain from "loss" seasons. And as Tragg pointed out, gutting the team's vets to the core isn't going to get the Sox where they need to get. The right mix needs to be found, and my whole point is Kenny hasn't even poured in all the different ingredients.

Give 'em a chance is all I'm saying.

Frontman
12-06-2007, 12:56 AM
Kenny Brings it on himself. Every year its the same crap about winning and we are a championship contending team and he doesn't take losing.

DURING A 72 WIN SEASON we had billboards about partying like its 2005

At what point is it time for Kenny to **** or get off the pot. 2005 was awesome, but if we won't let our players live on their 2005 reputation, why the **** are we letting Kenny?

Oh please. Bengston's Pumpkin Farm will still have their billboard up in July for last season's Halloween advertising. Just because a flamin' billboard is up doesn't relate to what Kenny does or doesn't do. One is marketing, the other is the General Manager in charge of the roster.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 12:56 AM
And we just had two season of not making the playoffs. Only a completely blind, deaf, and dumb man would not of noticed that the 2007 squad DL visitors like Pods and Erstad and a bullpen that put the ball in locations far easier reached with one of these

http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/55/63/23296355.jpg

Kenny and Ozzie have had a few seasons to learn and gain from "loss" seasons. And as Tragg pointed out, gutting the team's vets to the core isn't going to get the Sox where they need to get. The right mix needs to be found, and my whole point is Kenny hasn't even poured in all the different ingredients.

Give 'em a chance is all I'm saying.

look--I'm not sure what you're trying to say:

that we've made some very marginal improvements from an awful 2007 team?

That we shouldn't sell off our veterans?

That we should show up and try to win every game?

I don't disagree with any of that.

Frontman
12-06-2007, 12:58 AM
look--I'm not sure what you're trying to say:

that we've made some very marginal improvements from an awful 2007 team?

That we shouldn't sell off our veterans?

That we should show up and try to win every game?

I don't disagree with any of that.

Plus the season isn't starting tomorrow.

Plus the fact that Winter Meetings are still going on.

Plus the fact that Free Agents are still out there for the Sox to sign.

Simply put, its too early for anyone to call this race.

Domeshot17
12-06-2007, 12:59 AM
Oh please. Bengston's Pumpkin Farm will still have their billboard up in July for last season's Halloween advertising. Just because a flamin' billboard is up doesn't relate to what Kenny does or doesn't do. One is marketing, the other is the General Manager in charge of the roster.

It all came from Kenny. He was spewing these one liners out like crazy in the offseason and spring training. My point was you don't talk about winning and championships and getting championship players and these master plans unless you plan on winning, getting to the playoffs, and making the plans work.

Maybe the Angels overpaid for Hunter, but all that matter is he will be in CF for them on opening day. At some point we are going to have to stop worrying about the market just GET OUR GUY.

IlliniSox4Life
12-06-2007, 01:00 AM
I have no problem with Kenny's comments. What's the big deal?


I think part of the disappointment stems from the fact that Kenny is actually going after a lot of these big names and just not landing them. Top of the line free agents and superstar trades don't happen every off season for every team not names the Yankees and Red Sox. At least Kenny is going after them. He won't land every one he goes after because he's not going to break the bank to get them. We've been mentioned or rumored for most of the big name players outside of guys like ARod (way too expensive) and Santana (twins would never deal him to us).

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 01:02 AM
Plus the season isn't starting tomorrow.

Plus the fact that Winter Meetings are still going on.

Plus the fact that Free Agents are still out there for the Sox to sign.

Simply put, its too early for anyone to call this race.

Here's the thing: You can say "the roster's not set yet"

but the reason I'm so upset about the Cabrera deal is not that I wanted Cabrera. In fact I'm glad the deal didn't go through because I don't think creating 2 holes in the roster would have been worth getting Cabrera.

What's troubling is that it is now apparent that we don't have any non-MLB roster players that will entice teams to give up MLB ready talent.

That is to say, filling a hole in our roster (CF, LF, 2B, SP, Bullpen) will likely require us to create another hole in trade.

That means that in order to fill holes, we're going to have to sign free agents.

Where are the free agents?

Ok, there's Rowand and Fukodome as possibilities at CF and a handful of others at corner OF positions, but where's the pitchers? Where's the bullpen free agents? Sure they're out there, but they're substandard talent. And signing FA's, as we've seen this offseason, is not always as easy as saying "here's a guy I want, I'll sign him."

So this whole "there's a lot of offseason left" doesn't hold much water....there's really no way to plug our holes short of a miracle...and I don't believe in miracles...

akg633
12-06-2007, 01:04 AM
Kenny can't "fire back" with big words at this point. As a GM who has said "It's all about winning in 2008" JD and Buehrle were promised big moves at all costs.
Kenny has had some bad luck, but if it is still about winning in 08 he cant resort to this going for "... players who can give you quality defense and hard-nosed at-bats." crap.
Kenny, sign a top free agent CF while you still can.

Nellie_Fox
12-06-2007, 01:05 AM
Maybe the Angels overpaid for Hunter, but all that matter is he will be in CF for them on opening day. At some point we are going to have to stop worrying about the market just GET OUR GUY.No. When you are making your plans for who you want to go after, you also have to set some kind of a limit on what you are willing to give to get him. When the bidding passes that, you take a seat.

It's like watching the Barrett-Jackson classic car auctions. You see a couple of guys who really, really want the same car. At some point, one of them has to call it a day.

Domeshot17
12-06-2007, 01:08 AM
No. When you are making your plans for who you want to go after, you also have to set some kind of a limit on what you are willing to give to get him. When the bidding passes that, you take a seat.

It's like watching the Barrett-Jackson classic car auctions. You see a couple of guys who really, really want the same car. At some point, one of them has to call it a day.

I guess, but every year we hear kenny talk about the market needing to correct itself, and in reality, the players know the owners are bringing in insane money and they want their piece. 18 mil a year for a guy isnt what it was in 2004

BadBobbyJenks
12-06-2007, 01:09 AM
This thread doesnt blow at all, everything that is being said is true......K-dub talks more than any other GM in baseball.


This thread sucks go find a ledge and jump.

Honestly what should kenny have said

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 01:11 AM
This thread sucks go find a ledge and jump.

Honestly what should kenny have said

Anything but what he said :shrug:

Lorenzo Barcelo
12-06-2007, 01:13 AM
What should kenny have done???? Just keep his mouth shut and make some MORE improvements to the team that he built in 2006. Which by the way lost 90 games

akg633
12-06-2007, 01:23 AM
What should kenny have done???? Just keep his mouth shut and make some MORE improvements to the team that he built in 2006. Which by the way lost 90 games

Good point. But Kenny should have promised things to his players during contract talks. He clearly didn't deliver judging JDs reaction.

JB98
12-06-2007, 01:28 AM
This thread sucks go find a ledge and jump.

Honestly what should kenny have said

How about nothing? Stop worrying about the goddamn papers and "loose lips" of other executives and concentrate on the task at hand.

Lorenzo Barcelo
12-06-2007, 01:32 AM
I believe Kenny also made a quote in that article which said something about how other GM's need to keep their mouths shut when talking to the media. That being how rumors are created. Please stop the complaining, and improve the team.

akg633
12-06-2007, 01:42 AM
While we sit and complain about deals that are not getting done, the Dodgers just signed Jones. I know he wasn't on Kenny's radar... The cost for a solid CF free agent may just continue to rise. I hope Kenny isn't waiting it out at this point.

IlliniSox4Life
12-06-2007, 01:55 AM
While we sit and complain about deals that are not getting done, the Dodgers just signed Jones. I know he wasn't on Kenny's radar... The cost for a solid CF free agent may just continue to rise. I hope Kenny isn't waiting it out at this point.

My bet is he's trying for Fukudome, and if that doesn't work out, Rowand.

WhiteSox5187
12-06-2007, 04:04 AM
My bet is he's trying for Fukudome, and if that doesn't work out, Rowand.
How about both?

Grzegorz
12-06-2007, 06:13 AM
the sad thing is Kenny has torn people up.

I think we're over dramatizing the impact KW has in most of the lives of Chicago White Sox fans.

He is such a hot and cold GM.

As for being a hot and cold GM I'd just ask how many of you would change places with KW with the belief that YOU could do better given the financial and personnel in which he has to work?

It is totally out of the realm of reality that any professional stays "hot" over their career.

Sure he has responsibility; he's the General Manager of the Chicago White Sox.

I believe him when he says that he's working to make the team better.

I am not going to become apoplectic over the moves other teams consummate.

I refuse to throw in the towel on the 2008 Chicago White Sox on December 6th 2007.

santo=dorf
12-06-2007, 06:33 AM
Geez louise, gang. Its the job of a General Manager to believe the team he is building is better than the rest of the competition. What did you expect him to say,

"Oh hell yeah, the Tigers are now lights out better than we are. Quite frankly, there's not point of arguing it. The White Sox have ZERO chance of contending next year. But please come out and support our team!"

Get off his back already. I'm all for questioning him signing/releasing/trading players, but for him to say that the Tigers are now as competitive as the Sox isn't much more than PR commentary.
Is there a gun being shoved at his head? Why should he say anything like this? :?:

KW doesn't have to be this guy: :sahaf

Frater Perdurabo
12-06-2007, 07:05 AM
Why do I keep banging my head against the wall?

Because when I stop in feels better!

Do you pants-pissing dark cloud dipsticks really believe that KW deliberately sought out a Tribune reporter just so he could say that?

If you do, then have I got a deal on some land for you!

Seriously, the reporter probably interrupted KW in the hotel bar or corridor and almost certainly asked a deliberately, provocatively leading question, hoping to "catch" KW making an earnest statement about not having made any big moves yet. KW shot back with that, just to throw it in the reporter's face.

Seriously, dark clouds, go just go ahead and jump. I don't want you on my bandwagon. Go root for the Cubs or something. They always overpay to make splashy moves because, after all, pennants are won in December!

:kukoo:

itsnotrequired
12-06-2007, 08:12 AM
PR comment, nothing more. He didn't need to make the comment but people shouldn't read too far into it. I pretty much don't believe anything a GM publicly states at this point in the season.

nccwsfan
12-06-2007, 08:16 AM
KW was interviewed on Chicago Tribune Live last night, and the first question thrown his way asked about his reaction to the Cabrera/Willis deal. After discussing his initial thoughts he summed up by saying "all this has done is put the Tigers in better position to compete with us".

We're making mountains out of mole hills here. He was putting on his best PR face when making that statement- no one in their right mind is going to speak negatively about their company in public, much less during a live TV interview. KW realizes what has happened so far and that there is plenty of work that needs to be done.

Look at your calendars- today is December 6th. 2+ months until Spring Training starts and 2+ months to put together the 2008 squad. Make your judgements then.

Madvora
12-06-2007, 08:38 AM
I actually feel uncomfortable reading or watching interviews of KW. You never learn anything and he always seems pissed off.
I just don't like the feeling of constantly seeing the guy complain about how the market is out of control and the Sox won't have any part of it or how he's sick of people writing negative things about the team or how he's the one in charge and he'll do what he wants or how his pissed at some player on the team like Frank or Maggs or Anderson or Rausch or Borchard or Everett or McCarthy etc.
Enough already. You're in a position that has to deal with the media. We're fans of the team so we want to hear about the team. We're not trying to bug you. Stop being such a god damn baby.

Martinigirl
12-06-2007, 08:39 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-071205sox,1,6148020.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but this quote really ticked me off.



Better position to contend with US?

I read that as if he is saying we were better than them as the offseason began.

I don't know his actual tone when he said that so I may be jumping the gun.

He said this on Chicago Tribune Live after many questions/comments implying the Tigers have a golden ticket to the World Series. He said it jokingly, as if to break the tension in an attempt to calm everyone down. Clearly, that didn't work.

soxyess
12-06-2007, 08:51 AM
Kenny really needs to grow the **** up. Stop taking everything so personally and panicking to protect your ego -- it's pretty ****ing embarrassing for the rest of us.

Absolutely right!! KW brings all this upon himself by telling everyone how he's going after the big fish only to fall on his face. Then he blames everyone else. Im getting a little tired of his act!! I wish he would just keep his mouth shut and take action to improve the club, and explain the moves after they are done.

Crede_Fan
12-06-2007, 08:52 AM
This thread doesnt blow at all, everything that is being said is true......K-dub talks more than any other GM in baseball.


Not true at all.

soxyess
12-06-2007, 08:57 AM
How about nothing? Stop worrying about the goddamn papers and "loose lips" of other executives and concentrate on the task at hand.

Ill second that

spiffie
12-06-2007, 09:07 AM
Why do I keep banging my head against the wall?

Because when I stop in feels better!

Do you pants-pissing dark cloud dipsticks really believe that KW deliberately sought out a Tribune reporter just so he could say that?

If you do, then have I got a deal on some land for you!

Seriously, the reporter probably interrupted KW in the hotel bar or corridor and almost certainly asked a deliberately, provocatively leading question, hoping to "catch" KW making an earnest statement about not having made any big moves yet. KW shot back with that, just to throw it in the reporter's face.

Seriously, dark clouds, go just go ahead and jump. I don't want you on my bandwagon. Go root for the Cubs or something. They always overpay to make splashy moves because, after all, pennants are won in December!

:kukoo:

I honestly don't give a damn what KW says to the media. I'm just so glad that "pants-pissing dark cloud" is back in the collective lexicon again. It disappeared sometime around June when the Sox started imploding. For a sad few months people could criticize the Sox without being branded as such, and really, I have to think that's to blame for the team's bad play. No one was there to play sheriff and protect the team from our bad vibes being put out on the interweb.

Thank goodness the season is over, and we can go back to putting our fingers in our ears and yelling "WE CAN'T HEAR YOU!" every time that something worrisome is brought up. Or of course, the more benign version where we just say "I don't care as long as I can go to the game, enjoy a hot dog and a beer, and watch baseball" which is nothing like what many people mock Cubs fans for doing, honestly and truly.

I don't care if Williams yells at the reporters in Mandarin, drops his pants and pees on their notebooks, and proclaims himself the REAL last king of Scotland. But when he weakens the starting rotation, misses out on more and more of the impact players on the market, and slowly sees his realistic options to improve a team that greatly needed overall improvement (not just the make one part strong by weakening another approach of the Garland/Cabrera trade), that makes me worry about the coming year. Somehow we have a $100 million payroll and somewhere between 6-9 holes to fill.

Frontman
12-06-2007, 09:38 AM
Spiffie, there's being critical, and then they're being overboard with gloom and doom. To say that 2008 is a wasted year before the first pitch of spring training is thrown is overboard.

At any point a season can be turned around, any player can emerge and have a career year; and even longshots can pay off. Anyone remember how bad the 2005 Astros were at the All-Star break? Granted, they lost the Series, but they got there after being 10+ games below .500 at one point.

So far since June, KW has:

Gotten veteran experience in the bullpen with Linbrink(sp?)

Gotten the Sox a better shortstop

Let go of or traded players that made 2007 racid to watch (Mackowiak, Pods, Erstad, Cintron, the amazing Ryan Bukvich.)

The only move I didn't understand was the moving of Iguchi. While seeing Garland go was a disappointment; I can understand it. You have to give up talent to get other talent; and what is driving me crazy is that a lot of folks look at the Winter Meetings as if Kenny can walk over to Opry Hills Mall and just buy what the team needs:

"Gimme a solid leadoff hitter. I'll take 3, no 4, solid bullpen pitchers. Give me a center fielder with an arm like a cannon and the arm-span of a condor. Do you repair players here? Oh you do? Can you fix Conteras? No, I don't know if he's still under warranty. Hey, orange balls! I'll have a box of those and give me a box of those naked-lady tees, gimme two of those, gimme six of those...

http://www.capitate.co.uk/MLB%20Caps/baseball_caps_Angels_R.jpg
Oh, this is the worst lookin' hat I ever saw... Huh you buy a hat like that you get a free bowl of soup, huh? [Sees Jon Garland wearing the hat]Oh, looks good on you, though."

Soxfest
12-06-2007, 09:40 AM
Williams remained confident his current roster possesses enough talent to contend.
"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us," Williams said.

If KW really believes this he needs to resign today! That is is arrogance at it's finest he looks like a 5 yr old.:angry:

Frontman
12-06-2007, 09:41 AM
Is there a gun being shoved at his head? Why should he say anything like this? :?:

KW doesn't have to be this guy: :sahaf

I think we're saying the same thing, dorf. I don't see why we should get worked up that Kenny said a move made a team competitive. He would of sounded moronic saying "Hey, they moved players but they still suck!"

voodoochile
12-06-2007, 09:42 AM
That's absolute bull****. There is no way to silence his critics. Sox fans have become such whiney *****ers that no matter what he does, we will complain eventually.

I agree. It's kind of odd actually. No Sox fans believed in curses or fated losing before the WS - at least not any serious Sox fans. So we didn't have to listen to a lot of whiney self indulgent crap prior to winning one. Now however, it seems fans are going the other way - as if winning the WS is expected every year and any backsliding or failure to land big players via trade or FA is viewed as a slap in the fans' faces and an effort to go cheap or milk past success for all it is worth.

It's been a very interesting off season from a study the Sox fan mind perspective. I may just write a book...:tongue:

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 09:43 AM
Absolutely right!! KW brings all this upon himself by telling everyone how he's going after the big fish only to fall on his face. Then he blames everyone else. Im getting a little tired of his act!! I wish he would just keep his mouth shut and take action to improve the club, and explain the moves after they are done.

I suggest you use the ignore function on KW.

Frontman
12-06-2007, 09:44 AM
Absolutely right!! KW brings all this upon himself by telling everyone how he's going after the big fish only to fall on his face. Then he blames everyone else. Im getting a little tired of his act!! I wish he would just keep his mouth shut and take action to improve the club, and explain the moves after they are done.

I'd lay good odds that if Kenny refused to talk to the media during the offseason, you'd be one complaining that he was keeping state secrets from the paying customers.......

santo=dorf
12-06-2007, 09:47 AM
How would the consensus at WSI react if Alan Baird said before the 2006 season that the White Sox's acquisitions of Thome and Vazquez would help them compete with the Royals for next season? He would've been laughed out of town.

soxwon
12-06-2007, 09:50 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-071205sox,1,6148020.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but this quote really ticked me off.



Better position to contend with US?

I read that as if he is saying we were better than them as the offseason began.

I don't know his actual tone when he said that so I may be jumping the gun.

Dam Right that KW- We are the team, Screw detroit, We are the best
in THe A.L. C.
Give em Hell Kenny!!!
WE are ALL behind you, and if anyone disagrees-Your Opinion dont count.
Non Believers.!!!!

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 09:51 AM
PR comment, nothing more. He didn't need to make the comment but people shouldn't read too far into it. I pretty much don't believe anything a GM publicly states at this point in the season.


bingo.

It was still a stupid thing to say :shrug:

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 09:53 AM
bingo.

It was still a stupid thing to say :shrug:

If I were KW, I'd just be saying random **** to everyone. Just to get a reaction out of people.

jabrch
12-06-2007, 09:53 AM
While we sit and complain about deals that are not getting done, the Dodgers just signed Jones. I know he wasn't on Kenny's radar... The cost for a solid CF free agent may just continue to rise. I hope Kenny isn't waiting it out at this point.


I hope he waits it out rather than spends 18mm a year for 2 years for Andruw Jones.

jabrch
12-06-2007, 09:57 AM
What's troubling is that it is now apparent that we don't have any non-MLB roster players that will entice teams to give up MLB ready talent.


Well - first off, that's clearly not true since we just gave up Carter to get CQ. Second, that's also not true because we didn't lose out on Cabrera because we didn't have anything Florida wanted - we lost out on him because Detroit was willing to give up more than we were. We have a very good stack of pitchers in our farm system and they are valuable. But KW wasn't able to put together a package that he was willing to give up that exceeded what Detroit had. That doesn't mean that nobody wanted our guys, or that nobody would give up MLB ready talent for them.

Frontman
12-06-2007, 09:58 AM
If I were KW, I'd just be saying random **** to everyone. Just to get a reaction out of people.

I thought that's what Ozzie's role with the media was.

ChiSoxPatF
12-06-2007, 09:59 AM
"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us," Williams said.


http://www.warcraftmovies.com/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/imagemanager/images/51943/monty_python_2__limbless_black_knight.jpg

Okay, let's call it a draw.

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 10:00 AM
I thought that's what Ozzie's role with the media was.

The more I think about it, the more I believe Ozzie may have this whole media thing down. He is at the point that whenever he says something, people just say, "Well, that's Ozzie." Whereas people dissect every word KW says.

Frontman
12-06-2007, 10:03 AM
The more I think about it, the more I believe Ozzie may have this whole media thing down. He is at the point that whenever he says something, people just say, "Well, that's Ozzie." Whereas people dissect every word KW says.

Ozzie Jr. probably just picked up his cell phone and called his Dad.

"Dad, I just was lurking at flyingsock. I think they've figured you out."

"[BLEEP] Do you honestly think I give a flying [BLEEP] [BLEEP] [BLEEP] about what those [BLEEP]-ing [BLEEP]S think of me at that [BLEEP]ing website?"

Ozzie Jr. hangs up his phone with "Well, that's Dad being Dad."

duke of dorwood
12-06-2007, 10:04 AM
He has proven again there is a bottomless pit when it comes to how deep his foot can go into his mouth.

JNS
12-06-2007, 10:06 AM
I agree. It's kind of odd actually. No Sox fans believed in curses or fated losing before the WS - at least not any serious Sox fans. So we didn't have to listen to a lot of whiney self indulgent crap prior to winning one. Now however, it seems fans are going the other way - as if winning the WS is expected every year and any backsliding or failure to land big players via trade or FA is viewed as a slap in the fans' faces and an effort to go cheap or milk past success for all it is worth.

It's been a very interesting off season from a study the Sox fan mind perspective. I may just write a book...:tongue:

Right you are - it's all the fault of Sox fans - you know, the folks who pay their hard-earned dough to buy stuff, go to games, watch them on the tube, pay KW's salary, etc. Yep, us whiny Sox fans and big-mouth baseball executives from other teams who really ought to know that their job is to assist KW in getting the players he wants at the price he wants - their own teams are secondary and because the Sox are sacred they need to back off and shut up.

Voodoo - this isn't about "whiny Sox fans." It's about KW, yet again, going off like an unguided missile and blaming everyone and everything but himself for the problems he's facing. You say that we, the fans should not expect to win every year. Hey- it was KW who was blathering on about doing it now, not the fans. We are responding to what he says, not some fantasy we collectively are experiencing. This isn't a slap in my or anyone else's face - it's just bad, bad, bad policy. IT DOESN'T HELP THE SOX - it just makes KW look like a fool.

It's clear that he's upset about his inability to land the guys he (and some of the rest of us whiny folks) thinks the Sox should have. But lashing out - which tends to be his MO when things get dodgy - has proven to be unhelpful in the past, and is unhelpful now.

I've written about his public demeanor before and this is just another example of his immature, angry, unproductive public persona. Please tell me how this moves things forward in a positive way. Otherwise, please stop blaming Sox fans who are annoyed at KW's performance for the Sox problems.

Time for KW to grow up. If it's that bad, he should quit. If not, shut up and do some business with some of those big-mouthed execs from other teams. He sounds as if he would have a bright future in the sports-talk radio field. In that gig you are encouraged to yell at your constituency.

This is NOT what you guys call pants pissing cloudy day talk - it's a natural reaction to a bad attitude. What the hell does he expect? That every one will fall in line after he vents his spleen? The guy sounds as if he needs a good shrink.

Noneck
12-06-2007, 10:07 AM
Well - first off, that's clearly not true since we just gave up Carter to get CQ. Second, that's also not true because we didn't lose out on Cabrera because we didn't have anything Florida wanted - we lost out on him because Detroit was willing to give up more than we were. We have a very good stack of pitchers in our farm system and they are valuable. But KW wasn't able to put together a package that he was willing to give up that exceeded what Detroit had. That doesn't mean that nobody wanted our guys, or that nobody would give up MLB ready talent for them.
Are you sure about that? Did you read that somewhere or is this your opinion? Or are you saying that the Sox would have had to give up a package like Fields, Denks, Jenks, Gio?

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 10:08 AM
Well - first off, that's clearly not true since we just gave up Carter to get CQ.

If Quentin is what you consider the building blocks of a team that will compete in 08....

Further, good luck even getting a pitching reclamation project the likes of Quentin with our meager farm system


Second, that's also not true because we didn't lose out on Cabrera because we didn't have anything Florida wanted - we lost out on him because Detroit was willing to give up more than we were. There's the rub isn't it? Any team can put together a better package than we can.

And furthermore, even if Detroit would have stayed home WE WERE GIVING UP MLB TALENT FOR CABRERA. Detroit gave up no one on their mlb roster (or who would have made it) for Cabrera. We offered two players who we planned on using significantly in 08 for him.

That's the point: we have people teams want, but they are being relied upon for our lineup. We could trade Fields and Gio for a starting pitcher, but then we need to fill a hole at 3B. We could trade Danks and Gio for a leadoff hitter or CF but then we have a hold at SP


We have a very good stack of pitchers in our farm system and they are valuable.
Not really--we have Gio who is a top notch prospect, but then we have a lot of B-/C+ prospects who may one day be good for us but whom teams don't really covet and who won't yield much in trade. Do you think Broadway is the difference-maker in a big time deal? Egbert?


But KW wasn't able to put together a package that he was willing to give up that exceeded what Detroit had.He wasn't just unwilling, he was unable--it would have taken a big time player to have our deal match the Tigers's. And since we don't have them in the minors, that would have meant someone like Jenks


That doesn't mean that nobody wanted our guys, or that nobody would give up MLB ready talent for them.
Except, it really sort of does. Who in our minor league system but Gio do you think a team will take for a starting pitcher or Centerfielder? Let's be realistic and not start overrating mediocre talent like Broadway and Sweeney

JNS
12-06-2007, 10:09 AM
The more I think about it, the more I believe Ozzie may have this whole media thing down. He is at the point that whenever he says something, people just say, "Well, that's Ozzie." Whereas people dissect every word KW says.

That's because Ozzie is fun and charming and has a sense of humor and is often self-depreciating. He's fun to be around.

KW acts like a pompous ass.

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 10:11 AM
That's because Ozzie is fun and charming and has a sense of humor and is often self-depreciating. He's fun to be around.

KW acts like a pompous ass.

I prefer the pompous ass thing. I find it amusing, unlike most people around here.

Frontman
12-06-2007, 10:12 AM
I prefer the pompous ass thing. I find it amusing, unlike most people around here.

I'd rather have someone who was confident in his team and his abilities versus "Well, I wish we could of done more to get talent. *sigh* I guess we'll have to settle for what we got."

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 10:13 AM
I'd rather have someone who was confident in his team and his abilities versus "Well, I wish we could of done more to get talent. *sigh* I guess we'll have to settle for what we got."

Just because something's better than it's extreme alternative doesn't mean it's a good thing.

"Well, the bus broke down, it smells bad, and now I'm late for work, but at least I didn't walk 7 miles in this blizzard and would have been late anyway!"

JNS
12-06-2007, 10:16 AM
I prefer the pompous ass thing. I find it amusing, unlike most people around here.

It doesn't bug me personally, but it is bad management practice and is not a way of communicating that will help the Sox get better.

I was under the impression that KW's job was to make the Sox a better team - one that has a shot at the post season most of the time - that tends to be in most GM's job descriptions.

Being angry is not productive. Being funny and disarming often is - that's the difference between Ozzie and KW.

That said, I agree - KW's rants have a lot of the stuff of low comedy in them. Sometimes he reminds me of Moe Howard spouting off at Larry Fine.

Frontman
12-06-2007, 10:16 AM
Just because something's better than it's extreme alternative doesn't mean it's a good thing.

"Well, the bus broke down, it smells bad, and now I'm late for work, but at least I didn't walk 7 miles in this blizzard and would have been late anyway!"

Where some see a pompous ass; others see a leader with confidence. When the guy's winning? He's a leader. When he isn't? Pompous ass.

They guy can be both, just in the timing of it all.

voodoochile
12-06-2007, 10:16 AM
I've written about his public demeanor before and this is just another example of his immature, angry, unproductive public persona. Please tell me how this moves things forward in a positive way. Otherwise, please stop blaming Sox fans who are annoyed at KW's performance for the Sox problems.

Time for KW to grow up. If it's that bad, he should quit. If not, shut up and do some business with some of those big-mouthed execs from other teams. He sounds as if he would have a bright future in the sports-talk radio field. In that gig you are encouraged to yell at your constituency.

This is NOT what you guys call pants pissing cloudy day talk - it's a natural reaction to a bad attitude. What the hell does he expect? That every one will fall in line after he vents his spleen? The guy sounds as if he needs a good shrink.

Did you actually read the article? I don't see a ton of spleen venting going on...

"I keep in contact with my players," Williams said. "It's well known if I'm after a guy, I solicit my scouts' opinions, some of our core players' opinions, some of the people in the office, whomever. They may have insight into a certain player. So that's nothing more than continuations of some of the same conversations I've had all off-season or during the year."

"We'll all find out the answer to those questions together," Williams said. "Certainly we're not going to shy away from the challenge, especially knowing no matter what your roster looks like on paper, it takes well-rounded teams to contend for a championship.

"What we have started this off-season, I'm proud of. And where we're headed is right toward being a well-rounded team in all facets of the game."

"What [the scrutiny] does is make me wonder why I even bother spending the time that I do expounding on what our plan is and how we go about our plan," Williams told reporters.

"I understand that's part of the job. I will be respectful, I will be accommodating, and as you guys know, I have never been shy with things."

Yeah, he questioned other GM's opening their yaps and letting everyone know KW failed to land Cabrera. Given the rips he's taken in the media and from fans the past few days, I can understand him being a bit upset.

I mean you are case in point number 1 of exactly why KW prefers to fly under the radar. I mean if no one knew the Sox failed to land Cabrera then none of the ranting and wailing and gnashing of teeth would have happened.

Honestly, if people weren't so hellbent on tearing him down, maybe he wouldn't feel the need to defend his job performance in the media, but nothing sells like crappy news...

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 10:20 AM
It doesn't bug me personally, but it is bad management practice and is not a way of communicating that will help the Sox get better.

I was under the impression that KW's job was to make the Sox a better team - one that has a shot at the post season most of the time - that tends to be in most GM's job descriptions.

Being angry is not productive. Being funny and disarming often is - that's the difference between Ozzie and KW.

That said, I agree - KW's rants have a lot of the stuff of low comedy in them. Sometimes he reminds me of Moe Howard spouting off at Larry Fine.

The problem is that a lot of people 1) take what he says to the media seriously and 2) assume that is his management style.

jabrch
12-06-2007, 10:21 AM
Are you sure about that? Did you read that somewhere or is this your opinion? Or are you saying that the Sox would have had to give up a package like Fields, Denks, Jenks, Gio?

I'm sure that a deal with Fields and Gio as the core, and the rest coming from the farm would have been doable. But I would not have wanted to give up those guys, plus something like DLS and Egbert or something, for 2 years of Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis. I know that the masses would have liked it because it was splashy, but fortunately KW doesn't really give a crap about the masses. He's shown time and time again that he will do what he thinks is right for the franchise and that he has no regard for the opinions of the uneducated.

soxwon
12-06-2007, 10:23 AM
That's because Ozzie is fun and charming and has a sense of humor and is often self-depreciating. He's fun to be around.

KW acts like a pompous ass.

i like The Pompous Ass too,-He's OUR pompous Ass.
And he aint going nowhere.
KW will Git R Done, We Are The Champions my Friends.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 10:23 AM
The problem is that a lot of people 1) take what he says to the media seriously and 2) assume that is his management style.

Even if we don't take his bluster seriously (and we shouldn't) the question remains whether the business representative of the White Sox should be saying things this stupid publicly

ilsox7
12-06-2007, 10:25 AM
Even if we don't take his bluster seriously (and we shouldn't) the question remains whether the business representative of the White Sox should be saying things this stupid publicly

That's a fair point.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 10:26 AM
That's a fair point.

I'm not saying it's the end of the world (because it isn't) but it's kind of embarrassing hearing hawk-like comments coming out of our GM's mouth

spiffie
12-06-2007, 10:27 AM
Spiffie, there's being critical, and then they're being overboard with gloom and doom. To say that 2008 is a wasted year before the first pitch of spring training is thrown is overboard.

At any point a season can be turned around, any player can emerge and have a career year; and even longshots can pay off. Anyone remember how bad the 2005 Astros were at the All-Star break? Granted, they lost the Series, but they got there after being 10+ games below .500 at one point.

To say 2008 is a wasted year is one thing. Problem is that when people make the reasonable suggestion that looking at the teams, and what is available on the FA market, and knowing our farm system, it is unlikely that any moves can be made to give this team a strong likelihood of competing in 2008, and that 2009-2010 are likely better windows to try and aim towards, it is called giving up on the team. And I'm sorry, I don't need to see Spring Training to know a team depending on Danks and Floyd for 2/5 of its rotation is in trouble, unless the first day of spring training Floyd comes out with a rocket launcher surgically attached to his shoulder.

As for the Astros, the comparison there is pointless for a major reason:
Roy Oswalt - 2.94 ERA
Andy Petitte - 2.39 ERA
Roger Clemens - 1.87 ERA

If our top three guys can put up a combined ERA of 2.42 then I'll be willing to listen to that comparison.

voodoochile
12-06-2007, 10:28 AM
The problem is that a lot of people 1) take what he says to the media seriously and 2) assume that is his management style.

You know what's funny?

Change the title of the article to "KW answers critics questions about failed acquisitions" and change the loaded "fires back" to "responds to" in the first paragraph and maybe people don't get so worked up.

I don't see a lot of anger in KW's comments. Yeah, he's disappointed and the article even says so, but he's hardly ripping anyone or ranting and screaming.

Read the article people. Take off the glasses. Take KW's comments at face value and actually try to think for yourselves.

Or don't and let the media lead you where they want to...

"Start spreading the news....
Kdub's angry today...
He wants to put a stop to it...
Bad news bad news..."

(Sorry Frank)

spiffie
12-06-2007, 10:28 AM
I'm sure that a deal with Fields and Gio as the core, and the rest coming from the farm would have been doable. But I would not have wanted to give up those guys, plus something like DLS and Egbert or something, for 2 years of Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis. I know that the masses would have liked it because it was splashy, but fortunately KW doesn't really give a crap about the masses. He's shown time and time again that he will do what he thinks is right for the franchise and that he has no regard for the opinions of the uneducated.
So if he had given them up it would have been the right thing to do then?

champagne030
12-06-2007, 10:29 AM
I mean you are case in point number 1 of exactly why KW prefers to fly under the radar. I mean if no one knew the Sox failed to land Cabrera then none of the ranting and wailing and gnashing of teeth would have happened.



The only thing I question about your post is that Kenny need look no further than his own house to see that he wasn't flying under the radar. I do believe "the big fish is still out there" was a pun used by Kenny and Ozzie basically screamed to the world that we were after Cabrera.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 10:30 AM
To say 2008 is a wasted year is one thing. Problem is that when people make the reasonable suggestion that looking at the teams, and what is available on the FA market, and knowing our farm system, it is unlikely that any moves can be made to give this team a strong likelihood of competing in 2008, and that 2009-2010 are likely better windows to try and aim towards, it is called giving up on the team. And I'm sorry, I don't need to see Spring Training to know a team depending on Danks and Floyd for 2/5 of its rotation is in trouble, unless the first day of spring training Floyd comes out with a rocket launcher surgically attached to his shoulder.

As for the Astros, the comparison there is pointless for a major reason:
Roy Oswalt - 2.94 ERA
Andy Petitte - 2.39 ERA
Roger Clemens - 1.87 ERA

If our top three guys can put up a combined ERA of 2.42 then I'll be willing to listen to that comparison.

It's funny because I'm saying it's a year where we won't contend for a title, and Frontman's using his definition of a "Wasted year" to tell me I'm saying 2008 is a "Wasted year"

No way! 2008 will be a fine year, and there will be many things to be optimistic about throughout...especially in terms of being potentially ready to compete in 09.

There's a lot to be gained this year...and little has to do with expectations of being a playoff team. Go into this year with reasonable expectation, and if somehow, someway we're in contention come July, then you start thinking about playoff contention.

JNS
12-06-2007, 10:30 AM
Did you actually read the article? I don't see a ton of spleen venting going on...

I mean you are case in point number 1 of exactly why KW prefers to fly under the radar. I mean if no one knew the Sox failed to land Cabrera then none of the ranting and wailing and gnashing of teeth would have happened.

Honestly, if people weren't so hellbent on tearing him down, maybe he wouldn't feel the need to defend his job performance in the media, but nothing sells like crappy news...

Except he DOESN'T fly under the radar - he's out there spewing more than most GM's. You can't have it both ways - either he's a delicate flower who is cut to the quick every time one of those mean newspaper guys asks a leading or difficult question or he's tough-guy Kenny who is a killer competitor. Which is he?

This stuff reminds me of how anyone who is critical of US policy is called an "America hater." I love the Sox - I want them to be good. I want KW to succeed. I really doubt my (or anyone else's) criticism of him has any impact on him anyhow. Furthermore, I have already re-upped my package - I am not voting with my wallet - and will be out there cheering them on in a few months. but I'm under no obligation to agree with KW's ideas, methods, or public image.

Still, this is a business where the team's record and post-season appearances are the gauge whereby success is measured. IMO he needs to do better and his public persona is troubling in terms of how helps the Sox move forward.

I am interested in the Sox being good. I'm not interested in KW's delicate sensibilities.

In my lifetime I have lived through a number of GMs:

Frank Lane
Ed Short
Rollie Hemond
The Hawk
Himes
Schuler
KW
Probably a couple I've forgotten. In some senses, Veeck was his own GM.

Most of them were jerks - in that department KW doesn't hold a a candle to Ed Short.

I just want to see the team get better and I don't see how KW's rants assist in that endeavor. And nobody has yet explained how it does. Calling me an idiot of a pants-pissing cloudy-day type is your right (in fairness you didn't but others have), but it doesn't answer the question.

guillen4life13
12-06-2007, 10:32 AM
the sad thing is Kenny has torn people up. He is such a hot and cold GM. Some can't stand the way he says he does not tolerate losing but continues too, and others think hes the best thing since sliced bread because of the world series. I don't think either are wrong, but its tough with him. The one thing we know is the guy has proven he would rather (1) go with an aging vet then a kid and (2) he would rather see an oft-injured, never put it together guy come here and catch lightning in a bottle then make a big splash. He has never been a major player in free agency. In 2004-2005 offseason he got his 2 retreads in Dye and El Duque, took a chance on AJ when no one else would touch him and got Gooch because no one else offered. All worked out. Then 2005-2006 comes, not so much, and 2007 and Erstad and Terrero was just a disaster.

At this point, honestly, are we better then last year? Only if everyone takes it a step up. Now there are rumors we are passing on everyone and looking at more retreads like Luis Gonzalez. I don't know. I trusted Kenny when he said "This is just the first of many, I have a plan, a big plan, and Cabrera is the first piece of the puzzle" or whatever that qoute was. But I don't honestly think his plan was to keep swinging and missing. And honestly, if we have another 70-80 win season, he needs to be let go.

:bcolon
Hola--me recuerdas?

Yeah, he doesn't usually go after the big FA's but his trading track record is pretty splash heavy (and he almost made another a couple days ago). Freddy Garcia, David Wells, Jim Thome, Javy Vazquez, etc.

I mean, come on! The Sox have only had one sub .500 season under KW. My pessimism comes from the White Sox' competition being so fierce now which is a result of great GM work by the other guys as opposed to bad GM work by KW. Are you really going to blame KW for how the Cabrera/Willis deal happened? It wasn't even Dombrowski who initiated it--it was Beinfest. The way I see it, the Tigers got lucky as hell, at least in the short term. The Sox were very close to having a deal worked out from the reports I've read. He [Beinfest] knew what he wanted--he took a proactive stance and he got it. Now, you could say that it's a result of the Sox' farm not being too great anymore, but that's another story. We may find the Tigers in a very similar situation to the current state of the White Sox in a couple years.

As for Hunter, I'm glad the Sox didn't get him. I've never liked him as an offensive player and get just had a career year. But on the bright side, if Hunter is worth 18mil/year with a contract signed in 2007, I wonder how much it's gonna cost the Tigers to re-sign/extend Maggs, Miggy and all their other studs.

Noneck
12-06-2007, 10:34 AM
I'm sure that a deal with Fields and Gio as the core, and the rest coming from the farm would have been doable. But I would not have wanted to give up those guys, plus something like DLS and Egbert or something, for 2 years of Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis. I know that the masses would have liked it because it was splashy, but fortunately KW doesn't really give a crap about the masses. He's shown time and time again that he will do what he thinks is right for the franchise and that he has no regard for the opinions of the uneducated.

You think Fields and Gio will be better than Willis and Cabrera in 2 years? Or is this just a money issue in 2 years? It's really not an age issue.

JNS
12-06-2007, 10:34 AM
You know what's funny?

Change the title of the article to "KW answers critics questions about failed acquisitions" and change the loaded "fires back" to "responds to" in the first paragraph and maybe people don't get so worked up.

I don't see a lot of anger in KW's comments. Yeah, he's disappointed and the article even says so, but he's hardly ripping anyone or ranting and screaming.

Read the article people. Take off the glasses. Take KW's comments at face value and actually try to think for yourselves.

Or don't and let the media lead you where they want to...

"Start spreading the news....
Kdub's angry today...
He wants to put a stop to it...
Bad news bad news..."

(Sorry Frank)

Except KW does this sort of thing all the time. The first time I questioned his stability was the anti-Thomas rant a couple of years ago. it was so unnecessary and nasty - just let the guy go.

He really does have an impulse-control problem. Maybe not behind closed doors, but when he sees those mini-recorders out...

jabrch
12-06-2007, 10:35 AM
So if he had given them up it would have been the right thing to do then?

I don't think so...I wouldn't give up that much for 2 years of those guys.

I wouldn't give up what the Tigers just did. I wouldn't give up what the Yanks/SAWX are talking about giving up for Santana for ONE YEAR.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 10:35 AM
:bcolon
Hola--me recuerdas?

Yeah, he doesn't usually go after the big FA's but his trading track record is pretty splash heavy (and he almost made another a couple days ago). Freddy Garcia, David Wells, Jim Thome, Javy Vazquez, etc.

I mean, come on! The Sox have only had one sub .500 season under KW. My pessimism comes from the White Sox' competition being so fierce now which is a result of great GM work by the other guys as opposed to bad GM work by KW. Are you really going to blame KW for how the Cabrera/Willis deal happened? It wasn't even Dombrowski who initiated it--it was Beinfest. The way I see it, the Tigers got lucky as hell, at least in the short term. The Sox were very close to having a deal worked out from the reports I've read. He [Beinfest] knew what he wanted--he took a proactive stance and he got it. Now, you could say that it's a result of the Sox' farm not being too great anymore, but that's another story. We may find the Tigers in a very similar situation to the current state of the White Sox in a couple years.

As for Hunter, I'm glad the Sox didn't get him. I've never liked him as an offensive player and get just had a career year. But on the bright side, if Hunter is worth 18mil/year with a contract signed in 2007, I wonder how much it's gonna cost the Tigers to re-sign/extend Maggs, Miggy and all their other studs.

He didn't sign Colon, he was part of a 3 team trade for him (one that many people thought he wasn't the mastermind behind). Then he tried to sign colon and got turned down

voodoochile
12-06-2007, 10:36 AM
I just want to see the team get better and I don't see how KW's rants assist in that endeavor. And nobody has yet explained how it does. Calling me an idiot of a pants-pissing cloudy-day type is your right (in fairness you didn't but others have), but it doesn't answer the question.

What rant? That's what I want to ask you? Where is this rant? Please provide some quotes from that article or another showing KW ranting. Then please show some kind of evidence that KW sought out the media in order to rant at them about his critics and didn't simply respond to a reporter's questions in a straightforward manner.

The flavor of the article painting KW as an angry defensive guy comes from the writer, not from Kenny.

jabrch
12-06-2007, 10:38 AM
You think Fields and Gio will be better than Willis and Cabrera in 2 years? Or is this just a money issue in 2 years? It's really not an age issue.

I think Fields and Gio (plus two more solid prospects) and about 15-20mm in 2007 and 20-30mm in 2008 is worth more than Cabrerra and Willis. Yes

I also think Gio in two years will be more productive than Willis - salary notwithstanding.

spiffie
12-06-2007, 10:39 AM
I don't think so...I wouldn't give up that much for 2 years of those guys.

I wouldn't give up what the Tigers just did. I wouldn't give up what the Yanks/SAWX are talking about giving up for Santana for ONE YEAR.
But who are you, presumably part of the uneducated masses you referenced above, to question a decision if it were to be made by KW?

As for Santana, they're not doing it for one year of him. They're doing it for the right to sign him long-term without worrying about looking like KW when the Angels swooped in and snatched up Hunter while Williams basically sat there stunned.

wulfy
12-06-2007, 10:39 AM
I mean you are case in point number 1 of exactly why KW prefers to fly under the radar. I mean if no one knew the Sox failed to land Cabrera then none of the ranting and wailing and gnashing of teeth would have happened.

The thing that made this failed attempt more painful - and thus upped the criticism both from the media and the fans - is that Detroit is the team that did make it happen.

If the Sox were beaten out by the Dodgers or even the Mariners, it wouldn't have been half of the big-deal it turned out to be. But when your division rival makes the move to make it happen, it's a little more painful.

We'll feel that again this spring when Donovan McNabb becomes a Viking. :?:

But spiffie had a solid point when he said Kenny set these expectations this offseason on this Great Plan to bring the Sox back into contention. Then - versions 1A and 1B hit the ****house in a very public manner - there is clearly going to be questions around the execution of the Great Plan. It's one thing to have a Plan, it's quite another to have a Plan that you can execute.

voodoochile
12-06-2007, 10:43 AM
Except KW does this sort of thing all the time. The first time I questioned his stability was the anti-Thomas rant a couple of years ago. it was so unnecessary and nasty - just let the guy go.

He really does have an impulse-control problem. Maybe not behind closed doors, but when he sees those mini-recorders out...

Ah, so you admit that you expect to read angry comments from KW and that probably flavors your perception of things you read concerning him and comments from him contained therein.

Perception is reality. If you are going to continue to perceive KW the guy who fired off at Frank a few years ago then you are going to expect anger and frustration.

Given the ****storm of crap from the media and the fans who read it that KW has taken in the past few days - not for making bad trades but for getting outbid on a good trade - one could expect him to be angry, frustrated and disappointed and to lash out, but he didn't do it. He merely answered some questions, but that doesn't sell now does it? So the writer and editor flavored the title and first paragraph to slant it as a rant and then laid out the comments and here you and others come wandering into their trap. People like you who still remember and hold KW's feet to the coals for his comments regarding Frank are the first to bite.

"KW is obviously out of control!"

Congrats, you took the bait. You got hooked and now you got landed, boated, ready to be filleted and battered.

Noneck
12-06-2007, 10:45 AM
I think Fields and Gio (plus two more solid prospects) and about 15-20mm in 2007 and 20-30mm in 2008 is worth more than Cabrerra and Willis. Yes

I also think Gio in two years will be more productive than Willis - salary notwithstanding.

Fair enough but I don't really see those 2 solid prospects in the Sox system but I'm not a minor league baseball talent evaluator. Hope you are right and once again I hope all these savings just don't go in the piggy bank.

JNS
12-06-2007, 10:46 AM
What rant? That's what I want to ask you? Where is this rant? Please provide some quotes from that article or another showing KW ranting. Then please show some kind of evidence that KW sought out the media in order to rant at them about his critics and didn't simply respond to a reporter's questions in a straightforward manner.

The flavor of the article painting KW as an angry defensive guy comes from the writer, not from Kenny.

How do you know? He generally does seem angry. When I've met him (in public places - I don't rate private meetings), and I'm not talking about Fest last January he has seemed stressed and annoyed. Maybe it's just a tone and doesn't reflect reality, but that seems unlikely.

And yes, accusing execs from other teams of having big mouths, as if they are under some obligation to help the Sox amounts to a rant.

I know several sports writers, including one who covered the Sox for a great metropolitan daily. none of them have axes to grind and many are Sox fans when not being reporters. They aren't the enemy.

Look, this isn't about KW saying, as an earlier post sarcastically asked, that we've done the best we could, and the team sucks and that's that. It's about being a little bit reflective and not acting as if we all believe the last thing we heard.

Or maybe just talking less and as you said, using that terrain-hugging radar and flying really low.

Like the general who was new to the Pacific theater said: "I'll do some more talking after I do some fighting." KW needs to resist that impulse to say whatever is on his mind at the moment a mike is shoved in front of his grill. OF COURSE the media is going to ask him about not getting Cabrera and Hunter. Of course the media is going to ask what else he's got up his sleeve. of course some guys will try to bait him if they know he'll rise to it every time - it makes for good copy.

All he has to say is "I'll do some more talking after I do some more signing and trading." Nothing more.

JNS
12-06-2007, 10:48 AM
Ah, so you admit that you expect to read angry comments from KW and that probably flavors your perception of things you read concerning him and comments from him contained therein.

Perception is reality. If you are going to continue to perceive KW the guy who fired off at Frank a few years ago then you are going to expect anger and frustration.

Given the ****storm of crap from the media and the fans who read it that KW has taken in the past few days - not for making bad trades but for getting outbid on a good trade - one could expect him to be angry, frustrated and disappointed and to lash out, but he didn't do it. He merely answered some questions, but that doesn't sell now does it? So the writer and editor flavored the title and first paragraph to slant it as a rant and then laid out the comments and here you and others come wandering into their trap. People like you who still remember and hold KW's feet to the coals for his comments regarding Frank are the first to bite.

"KW is obviously out of control!"

Congrats, you took the bait. You got hooked and now you got landed, boated, ready to be filleted and battered.

Yep - all my fault. So was the 90-loss 2007 season. So were Pods injuries. So was the collapse of the pen.

Sorry about that - I'll try not to do it again.

jabrch
12-06-2007, 10:49 AM
But who are you, presumably part of the uneducated masses you referenced above, to question a decision if it were to be made by KW?

I'm just a fan. and I wouldn't have done it. But there's no way in hell I'd go ranting and raving like a buffoon about how KW is not doing anything, he is dumb, he's a bad GM, etc. I watch what this team does, and cheer for it.


It's not about "questioning" a move this team makes. You guys keep saying that as if there are people saying you can't "question" moves. It's about the sheer unbridled arrogance that some have in criticizing every move made and every non-move made, and blaming the GM for every outcome. GMs get far too much credit when things go well and far too much blame when they go poorly.

As for Santana, they're not doing it for one year of him. They're doing it for the right to sign him long-term without worrying about looking like KW when the Angels swooped in and snatched up Hunter while Williams basically sat there stunned.

But none-the-less, Santana is a FA in one year. So in one year, he is no longer a bargain, he will make full market value. If I were a franchise that dealt within any sort of budget constraints (I guess that's why I can't put myself in the shoes of NYY/BOS) there's no way I'd give up this kind of a package for a guy who is then going to cost 25mm per year. No way...

Again - *** do I know? Very little - but I do know that it is laughable the conviction with which some people nearly blindly (and all the internet information in the world still amounts to near-blindness) criticize the moves of professionals who have complete information and do so in a manner that is so arrogant.

KW may or may not be good at his job - that's debatable. But he has a complete picture of the White Sox situation, something nobody else has, and can make more educated decisions than any of us can because of the information that he has that we do not. Specifically, nobody here knows what he would have had to give up in order to get Cabrera. But whatever it is, it was going to be a very high price - one that he decided not to pay. I'm fine with that - honestly - I am. But I'm fine with whatever moves he makes. I may or may not agree with them - but that's a totally different story than the bombastic prick-like criticisms coming from some of the humanoids here.

Hitmen77
12-06-2007, 10:50 AM
KW brings all this upon himself by telling everyone how he's going after the big fish only to fall on his face. Then he blames everyone else. Im getting a little tired of his act!! I wish he would just keep his mouth shut and take action to improve the club, and explain the moves after they are done.

I agree. I think KW should do less talking ahead of time about "landing big fish". He has to know going into the offseason that, if his "big fish" targets were Hunter and Cabrera, there were pretty decent odds that at least one other team would outbid him for both players. He's just setting himself up in the media to look foolish when these things play out.

Yes, I know that KW will get ripped by some fans no matter what, but it does seem to me that he's not helping his cause by the way he's promising big moves when he has to know they are not a sure thing.

Honestly, we just won't know how to assess the Sox postseason moves until winter is over. If on 3/31/08, it turns out that KW's plan for CF was an "all-or-nothing" effort to go aggressively for Torii Hunter and then not get anyone else and end up with Jerry Owens as our opening day CF, then I'll be disappointed. But we are not there yet.

voodoochile
12-06-2007, 10:51 AM
Yep - all my fault. So was the 90-loss 2007 season. So were Pods injuries. So was the collapse of the pen.

Sorry about that - I'll try not to do it again.

There ya go, when you can't win the argument, change the topic...

jabrch
12-06-2007, 10:54 AM
Fair enough but I don't really see those 2 solid prospects in the Sox system but I'm not a minor league baseball talent evaluator. Hope you are right and once again I hope all these savings just don't go in the piggy bank.

I don't really believe there is a piggy bank. Not when our payroll is what it is. Top 5 in the AL - right? I don't see this being "cheapness". I see it wise that they didn't give Hunter or Jones 18mm per. I see it as a judgement call that really could be argued either way on not trading 4 of the teams top 6-8 prospects to get Cabrera/Willis.

Who the **** knows? Only a few people inside the organization have enough information to say for sure. Nobody here has anywhere close to enough information to be able to conclude one way or the other that it is the right move. There's a difference between wanting or not wanting a move to be made or not made and "knowing" that a move is "right", "wrong", "good" or "bad".

I like whatever moves the Sox make because I'm going to go out and cheer for virtually whomever we bring in. I'd have cheered for Torii Hunter even though I think he's a douchebag and a two-faced ****bag. I would have felt like 5/90 would have been a ton of money, probably too much, but that wouldn't stop me from liking the move in the short term, or cheering for Hunter. Same for Jones for 18mm per for 2 years.

I'm just looking forward to getting out to the park in a few short months again...

soxyess
12-06-2007, 10:56 AM
KW's actions will make it less likely for other GM's to want to deal with him.

voodoochile
12-06-2007, 10:59 AM
KW's actions will make it less likely for other GM's to want to deal with him.

BULL****!!!

soxyess
12-06-2007, 11:08 AM
BULL****!!!


Why do you say that. MLB execs are a fraternity. You never call each other out. You never call each other out on speculative nonsense and try to blame execs, the media, and the fans for you incompetent offseason. So when you say what you are saying please back it up with reasoning.

voodoochile
12-06-2007, 11:09 AM
Why do you say that. MLB execs are a fraternity. You never call each other out. You never call each other out on speculative nonsense and try to blame execs, the media, and the fans for you incompetent offseason. So when you say what you are saying please back it up with reasoning.

You first...

asindc
12-06-2007, 11:12 AM
This thread doesnt blow at all, everything that is being said is true......K-dub talks more than any other GM in baseball.

That is certainly not true. I'm guessing you just hear more about what he says than other GMs. Believe me, if I didn't come to this board, I wouldn't know about anything KW says, and the Wash. Post, radio, and TV here still do extensive coverage of the AL because of all the O's fans in the area.

asindc
12-06-2007, 11:13 AM
KW's actions will make it less likely for other GM's to want to deal with him.

That's complete nonsense.

soxyess
12-06-2007, 11:17 AM
You first...

You cant insult members of the same club you are in and expect them to feel comfortable doing business with you. There is an element of trust, and when KW goes to the media to attack league execs and the media for leaking information it is perceived as hypocritical and week. Especially when you are utilizing those tactics as an excuse for failing to aquire players you targeted. If KW has a beef with an exec call that exec and address the problem man to man dont use the very thing that you disdain (media) to air your laundry. If you dont think that KW will be less trusted by his peers then id like a pair of your rose collored glasses.

Your turn

spawn
12-06-2007, 11:21 AM
Why do you say that. MLB execs are a fraternity. You never call each other out.
Tell that to Billy Beane.

voodoochile
12-06-2007, 11:26 AM
You cant insult members of the same club you are in and expect them to feel comfortable doing business with you. There is an element of trust, and when KW goes to the media to attack league execs and the media for leaking information it is perceived as hypocritical and week. Especially when you are utilizing those tactics as an excuse for failing to aquire players you targeted. If KW has a beef with an exec call that exec and address the problem man to man dont use the very thing that you disdain (media) to air your laundry. If you dont think that KW will be less trusted by his peers then id like a pair of your rose collored glasses.

Your turn

Awesome deductive reasoning. Of course there isn't a shred of evidence to support it. In addition, KW didn't call out a single person by name, so making the assumption that ALL of the GM's will be leery of him seems a big stretch.

Finally, as with any business transaction, the ultimate decision on whether to do business with the guy across the table has everything to do with whether you like/trust his product, not the guy in question. So, if KW has a good package of talent to offer, it won't matter to the guy across the table one bit if they don't like KW saying that some of the GM's have big mouths.

MLB isn't HS and no one gives a rats ass if someone said something that might or might not have concerned them.

Finally, I don't give a damn if your reasoning is solid or not. Without some kind of hard evidence to back up your claim that other GM's might look to blackball KW remains (as I stated in my original reply)...

BULL****!!!

Paulwny
12-06-2007, 11:42 AM
Finally, as with any business transaction, the ultimate decision on whether to do business with the guy across the table has everything to do with whether you like/trust his product, not the guy in question. So, if KW has a good package of talent to offer, it won't matter to the guy across the table one bit if they don't like KW saying that some of the GM's have big mouths.

MLB isn't HS and no one gives a rats ass if someone said something that might or might not have concerned them.



I agree, all GM's hate Boras but, they still negotiate with him (with the exception of one) because of the players he represents.

kitekrazy
12-06-2007, 11:49 AM
There is a way for him to silence his critics: Make some more moves to improve this club that lost 90 games last year and looked terrible in doing so.

KW is doing a lot of talking and blustering.

It's kind of hard to make moves when you don't have anything to give up like other teams. It wouldn't make sense to make Hunter the highest paid player on the team.

chisox77
12-06-2007, 12:14 PM
These last few days have been rough ones for KW. I wouldn't like to be in his shoes right now.

Frontman
12-06-2007, 12:15 PM
These last few days have been rough ones for KW. I wouldn't like to be in his shoes right now.

I don't think anyone would. He could have Rowand on the plane with him back to Chicago and announce his signing, some will still be upset that he isn't Hunter.

ZombieRob
12-06-2007, 12:22 PM
It's kind of hard to make moves when you don't have anything to give up like other teams. It wouldn't make sense to make Hunter the highest paid player on the team.
Its time for theSox to start forking up the dough.This crap they have a 100 mil is silly.In todays market a 100 mil is like have a 70 mil limit.I don't blame Ken yet becuse he has bosses to answer to and you can do so much with little resource you have.At onetime J.R said at one point we'll start spending the $$ when the fans show up.Well we have shown up the last 3 years .2 of the years the Sox beat out the Cubs in t.v revenue.IMO they have to spend the $$ to aguire star type players via Free Angency.Becuse the Sox are so depleted in the minors they don't have that luury to trade from anymore.

soxrme
12-06-2007, 12:35 PM
Its time for theSox to start forking up the dough.This crap they have a 100 mil is silly.In todays market a 100 mil is like have a 70 mil limit.I don't blame Ken yet becuse he has bosses to answer to and you can do so much with little resource you have.At onetime J.R said at one point we'll start spending the $$ when the fans show up.Well we have shown up the last 3 years .2 of the years the Sox beat out the Cubs in t.v revenue.IMO they have to spend the $$ to aguire star type players via Free Angency.Becuse the Sox are so depleted in the minors they don't have that luury to trade from anymore.

You are correct!

Noneck
12-06-2007, 12:45 PM
I don't really believe there is a piggy bank. Not when our payroll is what it is. Top 5 in the AL - right? I don't see this being "cheapness". I see it wise that they didn't give Hunter or Jones 18mm per. I see it as a judgement call that really could be argued either way on not trading 4 of the teams top 6-8 prospects to get Cabrera/Willis.

Who the **** knows? Only a few people inside the organization have enough information to say for sure. Nobody here has anywhere close to enough information to be able to conclude one way or the other that it is the right move. There's a difference between wanting or not wanting a move to be made or not made and "knowing" that a move is "right", "wrong", "good" or "bad".

I like whatever moves the Sox make because I'm going to go out and cheer for virtually whomever we bring in. I'd have cheered for Torii Hunter even though I think he's a douchebag and a two-faced ****bag. I would have felt like 5/90 would have been a ton of money, probably too much, but that wouldn't stop me from liking the move in the short term, or cheering for Hunter. Same for Jones for 18mm per for 2 years.

I'm just looking forward to getting out to the park in a few short months again...
When I say piggy bank, I mean saving for that deal of a lifetime or when things are in really bad shape. I just want them to use money as needed in order to make us happy and give us all hope. I sure don't want KC Royals years ahead for us. A couple of years ago it wouldn't have bothered me but that sweet taste of success is tough to shake.

Paulwny
12-06-2007, 12:50 PM
Its time for theSox to start forking up the dough.This crap they have a 100 mil is silly.In todays market a 100 mil is like have a 70 mil limit.I don't blame Ken yet becuse he has bosses to answer to and you can do so much with little resource you have.At onetime J.R said at one point we'll start spending the $$ when the fans show up.Well we have shown up the last 3 years .2 of the years the Sox beat out the Cubs in t.v revenue.IMO they have to spend the $$ to aguire star type players via Free Angency.Becuse the Sox are so depleted in the minors they don't have that luury to trade from anymore.

You are correct!

Possible Tiger Payroll 2008

From the Detroit Free Press:
Bolstered by record attendance, the club's payroll could reach a record $130 million in 2008 -- roughly $35 million more than this year.

Lip Man 1
12-06-2007, 01:17 PM
Paul:

That's very interesting given that the Sox had three of their highest attendance seasons the past three years where they drew between 2.5 and 2.9 million.

Lip

Rocky Soprano
12-06-2007, 01:23 PM
Paul:

That's very interesting given that the Sox had three of their highest attendance seasons the past three years where they drew between 2.5 and 2.9 million.

Lip

Just curious, anyone know what the Tigers drew?

Paulwny
12-06-2007, 01:25 PM
Paul:

That's very interesting given that the Sox had three of their highest attendance seasons the past three years where they drew between 2.5 and 2.9 million.

Lip

Yep, it makes one wonder about how much $$$ is really available.

spiffie
12-06-2007, 01:26 PM
Just curious, anyone know what the Tigers drew?
3,047,133

jsg-07
12-06-2007, 02:08 PM
did i just hear on the score that Kenny and the sox executives packed up and left the winter meetings this morning without any deals in progress and not talking to the media???

I have stood by Williams through this whole thing here and am still optimistic things can happen, but given what did happen this week... shouldnt he be there still just in case something can be worked out to make this team better??

soxfanatlanta
12-06-2007, 02:12 PM
Ouch. (http://bp3.blogger.com/_W6YuhWU3sm8/R1eKrWwdy6I/AAAAAAAAATs/u4ZVi-Dm0rk/s1600-h/12-9SnowmanMascot.jpg)

Poignant, yet funny.

Soxfest
12-06-2007, 02:14 PM
did i just hear on the score that Kenny and the sox executives packed up and left the winter meetings this morning without any deals in progress and not talking to the media???

I have stood by Williams through this whole thing here and am still optimistic things can happen, but given what did happen this week... shouldnt he be there still just in case something can be worked out to make this team better??


Yes you did hear right KW is taking his ball and going home.:gulp:

jsg-07
12-06-2007, 02:38 PM
Yes you did hear right KW is taking his ball and going home.:gulp:

I have to say... I have stuck up for Kenny for the last two days especially after this Cabrera thing. I will also say, that I am not being a dark cloud because I think deals will / can still be done to make this team better.

But this is pure bull ****. You dont leave because things dont go your way and because you are pissed at the media. You are the GM of this team and you have a job to do. I dont care if you have to sit there until the end of the day with your thumb up your ass.... it is your JOB to be there and see if something unfolds.

spawn
12-06-2007, 02:57 PM
I have to say... I have stuck up for Kenny for the last two days especially after this Cabrera thing. I will also say, that I am not being a dark cloud because I think deals will / can still be done to make this team better.

But this is pure bull ****. You dont leave because things dont go your way and because you are pissed at the media. You are the GM of this team and you have a job to do. I dont care if you have to sit there until the end of the day with your thumb up your ass.... it is your JOB to be there and see if something unfolds.
This is too funny. It really is. Just as I thought: people will now rip him because he's not talking to the media. All week, people have been saying he talks too much. Now they'll rip him for not talking. I love this town!:rolling:

voodoochile
12-06-2007, 02:59 PM
This is too funny. It really is. Just as I thought: people will now rip him becasue he's not talking to the media. All week, people have been saying he talks too much. Now they'll rip him for not talking. I love this town!:rolling:

I actually was going to reply to that comment, but I decided to let it go.

KW talks too much

KW doesn't talk enough.


He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't depending on which way the wind is blowing and who is posting...

jsg-07
12-06-2007, 03:01 PM
I actually was going to reply to that comment, but I decided to let it go.

KW talks too much

KW doesn't talk enough.


He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't depending on which way the wind is blowing and who is posting...

Let me clarify, I am ok with him not talking to the media. My beef is with him leaving the meetings early. I did not think that was a luxury we had.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 03:03 PM
I think it's more what he says when he talks than that he talks too much

spawn
12-06-2007, 03:04 PM
Let me clarify, I am ok with him not talking to the media. My beef is with him leaving the meetings early. I did not think that was a luxury we had.
Well, according to Rockabilly in another thread, everyone has left. I'd like to say that people should try to get more information about certain situations such as this before hitting the 'enter' key, but making snap judgments is easier and the norm around here. :wink:

jsg-07
12-06-2007, 03:06 PM
Well, according to Rockabilly in another thread, everyone has left. I'd like to say that people should try to get more information about certain situations such as this before hitting the 'enter' key, but making snap judgments is easier and the norm around here. :wink:

If that is the case... then I will admit i am wrong...

Perhaps I blew up a bit to quickly. It just seemed odd to me that with a day left, if there was any chance to make something happen, even a slim chance, that we did not have the luxury of leaving.

Whatever, Im done for a while. Im going to take my own advice and let things play out and see where we are on march 31st....

Frontman
12-06-2007, 03:07 PM
Let me clarify, I am ok with him not talking to the media. My beef is with him leaving the meetings early. I did not think that was a luxury we had.

Because, you know, in this day and age; you can't do business unless you're face to face with other GM's. Nope, nosiree. They're not about to call you or you call them. Nope, they would never EEEEEEEEEEver....* have a chance again to make a trade.















*
http://www.chartattack.com/features/2000/jericho/chrisjericho.jpg
"I should sue you for gimmick infringement, jerky."

JNS
12-06-2007, 03:07 PM
Awesome deductive reasoning. Of course there isn't a shred of evidence to support it. In addition, KW didn't call out a single person by name, so making the assumption that ALL of the GM's will be leery of him seems a big stretch.

Finally, as with any business transaction, the ultimate decision on whether to do business with the guy across the table has everything to do with whether you like/trust his product, not the guy in question. So, if KW has a good package of talent to offer, it won't matter to the guy across the table one bit if they don't like KW saying that some of the GM's have big mouths.

MLB isn't HS and no one gives a rats ass if someone said something that might or might not have concerned them.

Finally, I don't give a damn if your reasoning is solid or not. Without some kind of hard evidence to back up your claim that other GM's might look to blackball KW remains (as I stated in my original reply)...

BULL****!!!

Sorry - but he has a point. I've heard rumblings about KWs arrogance and big yap going back to 2002. If you are interested in who - they are baseball professionals who brought this up I'd be happy to source it off-list.

Up to this mornings rant - yes, rant - I was more inclined to blame the constraints put on the guy by JR, but as far as I can tell the two are very similar. They are right and the rest of the world is wrong - a pretty lonely position to take, but there you have it.

Nellie_Fox
12-06-2007, 03:07 PM
Well, according to Rockabilly in another thread, everyone has left.
It doesn't matter, dammit. Kenny should stay in the lobby of the hotel until midnight just in case someone forgot their car keys and has to come back; he could still talk deal with them while they retrieve their keys.

jsg-07
12-06-2007, 03:08 PM
It doesn't matter, dammit. Kenny should stay in the lobby of the hotel until midnight just in case someone forgot their car keys and has to come back; he could still talk deal with them while they retrieve their keys.


Ok ok... point taken I jumped to conclusions. My bad....:redneck

spiffie
12-06-2007, 03:08 PM
It doesn't matter, dammit. Kenny should stay in the lobby of the hotel until midnight just in case someone forgot their car keys and has to come back; he could still talk deal with them while they retrieve their keys.
He should have stolen their cars and held them for ransom. One dependable bullpen arm per vehicle.

voodoochile
12-06-2007, 03:10 PM
Sorry - but he has a point. I've heard rumblings about KWs arrogance and big yap going back to 2002. If you are interested in who - they are baseball professionals who brought this up I'd be happy to source it off-list.

Up to this mornings rant - yes, rant - I was more inclined to blame the constraints put on the guy by JR, but as far as I can tell the two are very similar. They are right and the rest of the world is wrong - a pretty lonely position to take, but there you have it.

Are they GM's? You have actual sources saying they won't do business with KW because of his ego or simply that they don't care for him personally?

There is a huge difference between the two. I don't doubt that some people who deal with him don't care for KW. My beef is with the contention that they won't do business with him because they don't like him.

Frontman
12-06-2007, 03:11 PM
It doesn't matter, dammit. Kenny should stay in the lobby of the hotel until midnight just in case someone forgot their car keys and has to come back; he could still talk deal with them while they retrieve their keys.

Who's to say KW didn't grab everyone's keys from the parking attendant to deliberately keep people there talking?

There's our plan next year, Sox fans. We need to go down and steal Kenny Williams keys and plane ticket to force him into talking deals!

spawn
12-06-2007, 03:11 PM
He should have stolen their cars and held them for ransom. One dependable bullpen arm per vehicle.
While he was at it, he could ask for a CFer and a leadoff hitter...:D:

Frontman
12-06-2007, 03:11 PM
He should have stolen their cars and held them for ransom. One dependable bullpen arm per vehicle.

You hit the enter key quicker than I did! Darn it all! :D:

JNS
12-06-2007, 03:48 PM
Are they GM's? You have actual sources saying they won't do business with KW because of his ego or simply that they don't care for him personally?

There is a huge difference between the two. I don't doubt that some people who deal with him don't care for KW. My beef is with the contention that they won't do business with him because they don't like him.

No - but he's disliked and there is plenty of schadenfreude. Of course they will do business if he has something they want. There is also a lot of private satisfaction when he doesn't get what he wants or gets taken to the cleaners. Some of this may be quiet racism, but some of it involves his attitude and bluster.

The specifics of what I heard involved the Sirotka - David Wells deal. There was a lot of rumbling that KW knoew that Sirotka was hurt and crowed about it in private after the fact.

I just thought of something else - what happened to KW's talk last year about "market corrections?" Seems as if the market continues to correct up. Wrong again.

Enough. That cartoon that was posted earlier says it all.

voodoochile
12-06-2007, 03:58 PM
No - but he's disliked and there is plenty of schadenfreude. Of course they will do business if he has something they want. There is also a lot of private satisfaction when he doesn't get what he wants or gets taken to the cleaners. Some of this may be quiet racism, but some of it involves his attitude and bluster.

The specifics of what I heard involved the Sirotka - David Wells deal. There was a lot of rumbling that KW knoew that Sirotka was hurt and crowed about it in private after the fact.

I just thought of something else - what happened to KW's talk last year about "market corrections?" Seems as if the market continues to correct up. Wrong again.

Enough. That cartoon that was posted earlier says it all.

I am sure this occurs regularly in baseball circles. Joy in the defeat of your enemies is probably a pretty common theme whether it's watching the first place team get smacked around by the last place team as you are fighting for a playoff slot or simply rooting for your opponents to get screwed in their trade/FA acquisitions. It isn't limited to KW and even if the other GM's don't particularly care for him, again, it comes down to what the trading chips are, not what the personal feelings are.

I agree about the cartoon. It's pretty funny and it's spot on.

I think a lot of people are surprised and alarmed by the recent market trend especially for mid-talent caliber players. Pitchers in particular are subject to market inflation. Lots of posters around here - especially the stat geeks - have expressed amazement at some of the contracts being offered and long term there may have to be a market correction of some kind. The money well isn't bottomless. This season there has been a lot less spending on pitching and a lot more spending on position players to date, but so far no market correction has happened. Not every prediction made by KW has been nor needs to be spot on. That would be asking for too much from anyone in any job. The goal is to be more right than you are wrong and to do the best you can.

If Detroit doesn't make the playoffs this year or fails to get out of the first round (certainly possible given the talent that exists in the rest of the AL) it's going to be the biggest monetary bust in history.

soxfan13
12-06-2007, 03:59 PM
No - but he's disliked and there is plenty of schadenfreude. Of course they will do business if he has something they want. There is also a lot of private satisfaction when he doesn't get what he wants or gets taken to the cleaners. Some of this may be quiet racism, but some of it involves his attitude and bluster.

The specifics of what I heard involved the Sirotka - David Wells deal. There was a lot of rumbling that KW knoew that Sirotka was hurt and crowed about it in private after the fact.

I just thought of something else - what happened to KW's talk last year about "market corrections?" Seems as if the market continues to correct up. Wrong again.

Enough. That cartoon that was posted earlier says it all.

I call BS. How can you say hes disliked and throw all theses accusations around unless you actually have a source. Toronto should blame themselves for the Sirotka deal more then anybody else. These guys do get physicals before the trades are ok'd:rolleyes:

JNS
12-06-2007, 04:02 PM
I call BS. How can you say hes disliked and throw all theses accusations around unless you actually have a source. Toronto should blame themselves for the Sirotka deal more then anybody else. These guys do get physicals before the trades are ok'd:rolleyes:

I do have a source.

JNS
12-06-2007, 04:10 PM
I am sure this occurs regularly in baseball circles. Joy in the defeat of your enemies is probably a pretty common theme whether it's watching the first place team get smacked around by the last place team as you are fighting for a playoff slot or simply rooting for your opponents to get screwed in their trade/FA acquisitions. It isn't limited to KW and even if the other GM's don't particularly care for him, again, it comes down to what the trading chips are, not what the personal feelings are.

I agree about the cartoon. It's pretty funny and it's spot on.

I think a lot of people are surprised and alarmed by the recent market trend especially for mid-talent caliber players. Pitchers in particular are subject to market inflation. Lots of posters around here - especially the stat geeks - have expressed amazement at some of the contracts being offered and long term there may have to be a market correction of some kind. The money well isn't bottomless. This season there has been a lot less spending on pitching and a lot more spending on position players to date, but so far no market correction has happened. Not every prediction made by KW has been nor needs to be spot on. That would be asking for too much from anyone in any job. The goal is to be more right than you are wrong and to do the best you can.

If Detroit doesn't make the playoffs this year or fails to get out of the first round (certainly possible given the talent that exists in the rest of the AL) it's going to be the biggest monetary bust in history.

I think the talent pool continues to shrink even with the addition of all the Latin guys. A smaller pool, even of journeymen equals higher prices.

Of course not having a cap - I can't blame that one on KW - doesn't help. My point is, JR - abetted by KW has a flawed d incorrect business model. If winning is the point, you have to do business as the business is constituted at a given time. They can talk about how insane it is - and it is - till they are blue in the face, but it doesn't change the reality.

If it is that awful JR should just sell the team to someone who is willing to make the front end investment.

This is n't like the housing bubble; salaries have not gone down once since the demise of the reserve clause.

As for the earlier point - I agree with you - lots of these guys like or dislike each other and it doesn't stop them from doing business with each other. But some guys are disliked more than others.

Again, some of this may be racism and the fact that KW isn't in the old boys club. But he doesn't help himself with the loud pronouncements. After all, he was the one who said he was going to land "some big fish." Nobody else put him in the difficult situation he's in right now.

soxyess
12-06-2007, 04:14 PM
Are they GM's? You have actual sources saying they won't do business with KW because of his ego or simply that they don't care for him personally?

There is a huge difference between the two. I don't doubt that some people who deal with him don't care for KW. My beef is with the contention that they won't do business with him because they don't like him.

Its not that they dont like him. they wont do business with him because they dont trust him.

voodoochile
12-06-2007, 04:17 PM
Its not that they dont like him. they wont do business with him because they dont trust him.

More bull****!!!

Again, post some evidence...

Please, anything. I'm dying here... Let me drink at the font of your knowledge and in depth perception...

Hasn't KW already made two trades this fall?

Hasn't he made several big trades in the past few years well after the Sirotka trade brouhaha died?

You are talking out your ass because you don't like KW and you expect people to lap it up, well welcome to WSI, soxyess... back it up or back off...

voodoochile
12-06-2007, 04:20 PM
I think the talent pool continues to shrink even with the addition of all the Latin guys. A smaller pool, even of journeymen equals higher prices.

Of course not having a cap - I can't blame that one on KW - doesn't help. My point is, JR - abetted by KW has a flawed d incorrect business model. If winning is the point, you have to do business as the business is constituted at a given time. They can talk about how insane it is - and it is - till they are blue in the face, but it doesn't change the reality.

If it is that awful JR should just sell the team to someone who is willing to make the front end investment.

This is n't like the housing bubble; salaries have not gone down once since the demise of the reserve clause.

As for the earlier point - I agree with you - lots of these guys like or dislike each other and it doesn't stop them from doing business with each other. But some guys are disliked more than others.

Again, some of this may be racism and the fact that KW isn't in the old boys club. But he doesn't help himself with the loud pronouncements. After all, he was the one who said he was going to land "some big fish." Nobody else put him in the difficult situation he's in right now.

I don't think the model is flawed. They are a top 10 payroll. Some of that money is tied up in questionable decisions - most notably Contreras but that's 20/20 hindsight talking. Just because the budget isn't available at the moment doesn't mean it isn't there, it's just been used up.

dickallen15
12-06-2007, 04:23 PM
More bull****!!!

Again, post some evidence...

Please, anything. I'm dying here... Let me drink at the font of your knowledge and in depth perception...

Hasn't KW already made two trades this fall?

Hasn't he made several big trades in the past few years well after the Sirotka trade brouhaha died?

You are talking out your ass because you don't like KW and you expect people to lap it up, well welcome to WSI, soxyess... back it up or back off...
I don't know if the stories in this thread are true, but when Schueler resigned as GM he did recommend Danny Evans over Kenny because he thought Kenny's personality could rub others he'd be doing business with, agents, GM's the wrong way.

voodoochile
12-06-2007, 04:25 PM
I don't know if the stories in this thread are true, but when Schueler resigned as GM he did recommend Danny Evans over Kenny because he thought Kenny's personality could rub others he'd be doing business with, agents, GM's the wrong way.

Yeah and all the two have done since then is win a WS title and donk their way out of a GM's job...

Now which did which?

Frontman
12-06-2007, 04:26 PM
More bull****!!!

Again, post some evidence...

Please, anything. I'm dying here... Let me drink at the font of your knowledge and in depth perception...

Hasn't KW already made two trades this fall?

Hasn't he made several big trades in the past few years well after the Sirotka trade brouhaha died?

You are talking out your ass because you don't like KW and you expect people to lap it up, well welcome to WSI, soxyess... back it up or back off...

voodoochile is my hero.

JNS
12-06-2007, 06:06 PM
I don't think the model is flawed. They are a top 10 payroll. Some of that money is tied up in questionable decisions - most notably Contreras but that's 20/20 hindsight talking. Just because the budget isn't available at the moment doesn't mean it isn't there, it's just been used up.

Better than top ten - the Sox are #4 after Yankees, Bosox, Mets (or maybe Angels - I don't remember which).

Thing is, as long as the Sox don't have a lot on the farm - a necessary factor for JR's lousy pay-scale compared to others - they need to spend a lot of dough; to have the ability to match Arnie Munoz of the Angels or Theo Epstein or Steinbrenner.

Now, I'm not suggesting that they can match the Yanks payroll, but I think the market and potential revenue can match Boston's. After all, Boston relies on a regional market - Boston has less than one million.

You know what me biggest nightmare is? That Mark Cuban ends up with the Cubs, because he's a guy who understands what it means to boost revenues to increase payroll. He's a great marketer and will expand on the Killer Bees already huge national market.

If JR's model works so well, why have the Sox only made the playoffs four times in the over 1/4 century he's owned them, and only made it beyond the first round once (05)? It's a pretty bad record.

The Twins have what maty be the best farm system and scouting operation in the game. They had only one owner going back to 1901; the Griffith family. The Senators were awful, but they got better after the first 60 year, when they moved West.

The Cardinals, also a small market team that are perennial winners likewise have a great and old farm system (it's the original farm system, created by Branch Rickey).

The Sox cannot boast that sort of continuity or success. That's the reality. For most of its history the White Sox were a pretty bad franchise. Right now, after creating a winner in 2004, with a championship in 05, and a competitive season in 06, it seems as if they have fallen off the table.

Voodoo, I agree with you when you write that they really weren't a 90-loss team in 07, but even as a .500 team they fell pretty far.

JR has to show that he's committed to winning, and sticking stubbornly to his low pay, short contract, avoid signing Scott Boras policies is very problematic.

Lip Man 1
12-06-2007, 06:59 PM
For what it's worth from what I was told Kenny tried convincing Toronto to take Parque instead of Sirotka because he wasn't sure Mike was healthy. I was then told Toronto insisted on Sirotka.

You can't be held responsible when someone makes a bad decision after you try to warn them ahead of time.

Lip

JNS
12-06-2007, 07:58 PM
For what it's worth from what I was told Kenny tried convincing Toronto to take Parque instead of Sirotka because he wasn't sure Mike was healthy. I was then told Toronto insisted on Sirotka.

You can't be held responsible when someone makes a bad decision after you try to warn them ahead of time.

Lip

Not what I was told.

Flight #24
12-06-2007, 09:24 PM
Kenny just needs to shut the hell up and act like a professional. Getting pissed at the media when his deals go sour, getting pissed at players, throwing tantrums in the clubhouse and/or ranting to the press. He's worse than Ozzie. Whereas Ozzie comes across as manic/crazy, Kenny comes across as arrogant, which is worse.

There is no way to win when you do that. You will always look bad and the organization looks bad because of it. Kenny's allegedly a smart guy, he should know that.

drewcifer
12-06-2007, 09:31 PM
Not what I was told.

Man, who cares about this old ****? Like Toronto has to come across KW to make bad decisions on pitching moves...

TomBradley72
12-06-2007, 09:46 PM
KW's front office resume:

1995-1997 Director of Minor League Operations/Special Asst. to the Chairman
1997-2000 Vice President of Player Development
2000-Present Senior Vice President/General Manager

12+ years of significant player development responsibility....and overall a pretty mediocre track record in this particular area. The buck completely stops with him for the team's performance the last 1.5 years and the low quality of their trade bait to improve on last year.

I concur with others...that all the talk and bluster is getting old. Then beginning to blame the media and his peers for being part of the problem...pure desperation. He's a highly paid executive...he's judged on results.

TomBradley72
12-06-2007, 09:54 PM
I don't think the model is flawed. They are a top 10 payroll. Some of that money is tied up in questionable decisions - most notably Contreras but that's 20/20 hindsight talking. Just because the budget isn't available at the moment doesn't mean it isn't there, it's just been used up.

They have a Top Ten payroll (so they are willing to spend money) and the GM has overseen player development for 12+ years...yet they lost 90 games and have very little to show in the farm system. In my opinion, that has to draw scutiny on whether the GM is doing a good job or not.

gregory18n
12-06-2007, 10:16 PM
Tom Bradleys' information makes it perfectly clear to me who's responsible for our situation. The only person that can change the direction is the owner, but he seems to support the current goals. It's a bit disheartening.

JNS
12-06-2007, 11:18 PM
Tom Bradleys' information makes it perfectly clear to me who's responsible for our situation. The only person that can change the direction is the owner, but he seems to support the current goals. It's a bit disheartening.

It took Rheinsdorf six years of basement finishes to can Krause. KW will be here till the Cell looks lie old Comiskey did in 1970 - pretty much empty.

Sad stuff.

jabrch
12-06-2007, 11:21 PM
Tom Bradleys' information makes it perfectly clear to me who's responsible for our situation. The only person that can change the direction is the owner, but he seems to support the current goals. It's a bit disheartening.

Ah yes, the owner with a 100mm payroll is the problem. That's a refreshing and novel opinion.

Martinigirl
12-06-2007, 11:39 PM
KW's front office resume:

1995-1997 Director of Minor League Operations/Special Asst. to the Chairman
1997-2000 Vice President of Player Development
2000-Present Senior Vice President/General Manager

12+ years of significant player development responsibility....and overall a pretty mediocre track record in this particular area. The buck completely stops with him for the team's performance the last 1.5 years and the low quality of their trade bait to improve on last year.

I concur with others...that all the talk and bluster is getting old. Then beginning to blame the media and his peers for being part of the problem...pure desperation. He's a highly paid executive...he's judged on results.

You are neglecting to include the fact that within the 7 years as GM he has brought us a World Series. A little thing, but something I feel is worth mentioning.

And just for kicks I will reiterate that the quote was taken from the interview on Chicago Tribune Live and he was joking because the people asking the questions were in a panic about Detroit. But why let the facts get in the way of a story in the Trib that is meant to get Sox fan in a tizzy, which it obviously did.

Brian26
12-06-2007, 11:48 PM
It took Rheinsdorf six years of basement finishes to can Krause. KW will be here till the Cell looks lie old Comiskey did in 1970 - pretty much empty.

Sad stuff.

Pour it on, drama queen. Unlike basketball, major league baseball has proven that a great team can turn to mush in one year, and a cellar-dweller can jump up and win a division. Nothing in baseball is set in stone, and because it takes 25 guys to win a championship, no one dominant player (ie Jordan, Kobe, Duncan) is going to keep a team on top of the mountain for long. There is no correlation to where the Bulls have been since '98 and what's happening to the Sox. Apples and oranges. The Sox could win the American League pennant next year just as easily as finish in 4th place. You knew those early 2000 Bulls teams were going to suck and suck badly.

voodoochile
12-06-2007, 11:55 PM
They have a Top Ten payroll (so they are willing to spend money) and the GM has overseen player development for 12+ years...yet they lost 90 games and have very little to show in the farm system. In my opinion, that has to draw scutiny on whether the GM is doing a good job or not.

Hey Tom, what was your prediction for number of wins last year?

Just curious as to what all these know it all GM wannabes felt about last season before it started. Wonder if they've got the guts to tell the truth?

Jurr
12-07-2007, 12:01 AM
I remember rooting for a Sox team that was carrying:
A.) A few players with very questionable health histories (Dye, Everett, Thomas)
B.) A couple of underachievers in the starting rotation (Garland and Contreras)
C.) A few relievers that hadn't exactly been lighting the world on fire (Cotts and Politte)
D.) Some home grown position players that were provoking fans to run them out of town on a rail (Rowand and Crede)

Oh yeah....and they had lost a ton of HR and RBI production. (Lee, Maggs, Valentin)

How did that one end up?
The point is that chemistry is just as important as having a bunch of stud players. Answer me this...why is it that most teams that have incredible seasons seem to have a bunch of players putting up career numbers at the same time? Is it an enormous fluke? I think not. It's due to the fact that good baseball is as contagious as bubonic plague.

The Sox lost out on a couple of big name players. I would've LOVED to have Torii Hunter in the outfield for the Sox. Does that mean that the Sox are immediately worse for not having him? Does it mean that the Tigers are immediately a better team than the Sox because they have Cabrera and Willis? Nope. What if the team struggles out of the gate and runs into problems? There's way too much to consider, and that also means there's really no way to grade KW's offseason yet.

Look no further than the 2006 Sox. They looked absolutely loaded. The team that dominated 2005 returned for the most part, along with a HUGE addition in Jim Thome. Guess what? Something just didn't click, and the team fizzled out in the second half. The point is this: what happens on paper guarantees NOTHING. Period. Let the offseason play out. Let's see if the whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts.

rdivaldi
12-07-2007, 12:33 AM
I don't know if the stories in this thread are true, but when Schueler resigned as GM he did recommend Danny Evans over Kenny because he thought Kenny's personality could rub others he'd be doing business with, agents, GM's the wrong way.

You'd want to listen to Ron Scueler's recommendation?

:?:

I've said it before and I'll say it again, "Danny Evans is an idiot". He is one of the worst evaluators of talent I've ever run across, and that's a lot of people...

TomBradley72
12-07-2007, 01:22 AM
You are neglecting to include the fact that within the 7 years as GM he has brought us a World Series. A little thing, but something I feel is worth mentioning.


My ONLY point is that he deserves the scrutiny he's under based on the current state of the team. 2005 was incredible and KW made it a reality. I'm have NEVER posted that he's a bad GM overall or that he should be replaced.

TomBradley72
12-07-2007, 01:35 AM
Hey Tom, what was your prediction for number of wins last year?

Just curious as to what all these know it all GM wannabes felt about last season before it started. Wonder if they've got the guts to tell the truth?

I'm not sure the point of this your post. I don't have the background or the experience to be a GM at the major league level. So does that mean as a fan, I don't have the right to question how well the GM (who is the actual executive being very well compensated to do his job) is doing his job when they've played mediocre baseball for a full 1.5 seasons (despite a $100MM payroll) and have a mediocre farm system (and the GM has been in charge for 12+ years of this area of the operation)? My guess is that 99% of WSI posters have never played major league baseball, or have been a GM, etc....does that mean none of can express an opinion?

For the record...I expected 90-94 wins from the 2007 White Sox but saw a lot of risk based on the number of injury prone/aging players in the starting line up (Pods, Erstad, Dye, Crede, Thome) and an unproven bullpen (Sisco, Aardsma, etc.).

ilsox7
12-07-2007, 03:11 AM
I'm not sure the point of this your post. I don't have the background or the experience to be a GM at the major league level. So does that mean as a fan, I don't have the right to question how well the GM (who is the actual executive being very well compensated to do his job) is doing his job when they've played mediocre baseball for a full 1.5 seasons (despite a $100MM payroll) and have a mediocre farm system (and the GM has been in charge for 12+ years of this area of the operation)? My guess is that 99% of WSI posters have never played major league baseball, or have been a GM, etc....does that mean none of can express an opinion?

For the record...I expected 90-94 wins from the 2007 White Sox but saw a lot of risk based on the number of injury prone/aging players in the starting line up (Pods, Erstad, Dye, Crede, Thome) and an unproven bullpen (Sisco, Aardsma, etc.).

I think the point is that you are a hypocrite. You expected 90-94 wins out of the 2007 team, which is pretty similar to what KW thought he was going to get. Well, it didn't work out that way. So you've taken it upon yourself to rip KW for being a bad GM when, in fact, you thought he was being a good GM until you had the opportunity to play the hindsight game.

Does KW get paid a lot of money to put together winning teams? Yes. Does he deserve criticism to some degree if he fails his goal? Yes. But when you even say that you expected the team he put together in 2007 to win 90-94 games, it's hypocritical to criticize KW without looking in the mirror and evaluating your own opinions which were obviously just as wrong as KW's.

Essentially what you're saying is that if you agree with KW's actions in the present and the end results are good, you'll pat yourself on the back and give KW some praise. But if you agree with his actions in the present and the end result is bad, you'll call for his job, question his qualifications as a GM, and happen to forget that you agreed with him along the way until things went wrong.

fquaye149
12-07-2007, 06:41 AM
Pour it on, drama queen. Unlike basketball, major league baseball has proven that a great team can turn to mush in one year, and a cellar-dweller can jump up and win a division. Nothing in baseball is set in stone, and because it takes 25 guys to win a championship, no one dominant player (ie Jordan, Kobe, Duncan) is going to keep a team on top of the mountain for long. There is no correlation to where the Bulls have been since '98 and what's happening to the Sox. Apples and oranges. The Sox could win the American League pennant next year just as easily as finish in 4th place. You knew those early 2000 Bulls teams were going to suck and suck badly.


Oh come now. I agree with your general point, but there are at least 4 teams in the AL who are so significantly better, that short of Kenny making impossible miracle deals wherein we trade prospects no one appears to want for stars, we won't be competing for a playoff spot in 2008

fquaye149
12-07-2007, 06:41 AM
Hey Tom, what was your prediction for number of wins last year?

Just curious as to what all these know it all GM wannabes felt about last season before it started. Wonder if they've got the guts to tell the truth?

I thought we'd win anywhere from 85-95
:redface:

voodoochile
12-07-2007, 09:45 AM
I'm not sure the point of this your post. I don't have the background or the experience to be a GM at the major league level. So does that mean as a fan, I don't have the right to question how well the GM (who is the actual executive being very well compensated to do his job) is doing his job when they've played mediocre baseball for a full 1.5 seasons (despite a $100MM payroll) and have a mediocre farm system (and the GM has been in charge for 12+ years of this area of the operation)? My guess is that 99% of WSI posters have never played major league baseball, or have been a GM, etc....does that mean none of can express an opinion?

For the record...I expected 90-94 wins from the 2007 White Sox but saw a lot of risk based on the number of injury prone/aging players in the starting line up (Pods, Erstad, Dye, Crede, Thome) and an unproven bullpen (Sisco, Aardsma, etc.).

Well that's my point. Not many people foresaw a 90 loss team last year, but you want to hole KW accountable for it over everything else he has accomplished.

Is it part of his Sox GM resume? Yes. Is it the whole Resume? Not even close.

Flight #24
12-07-2007, 10:06 AM
Well that's my point. Not many people foresaw a 90 loss team last year, but you want to hole KW accountable for it over everything else he has accomplished.

Is it part of his Sox GM resume? Yes. Is it the whole Resume? Not even close.

1) Kenny should know better than a bunch of guys/girls on a website, even knowledgeable, passionate folks like WSI.

2) The problem isn't so much one season/offseason, it's the tenure which outside of one brilliant year, has always ended in failure (although only once in abject failure - 2007).

3) The other problem is that over that tenure, the Sox development program has accounted for by my count 3 players who are arguably above average major leaguers: McCarthy, Fields, Young (I may be missing a couple, but for 7+years, even if you make it 5-6 that's not good). This is the biggest issue facing the Sox, and I have no confidence that Kenny can turn it around because he presided over it in the first place.

JNS
12-07-2007, 10:19 AM
You are neglecting to include the fact that within the 7 years as GM he has brought us a World Series. A little thing, but something I feel is worth mentioning.

And just for kicks I will reiterate that the quote was taken from the interview on Chicago Tribune Live and he was joking because the people asking the questions were in a panic about Detroit. But why let the facts get in the way of a story in the Trib that is meant to get Sox fan in a tizzy, which it obviously did.

So - will you be crowing about the 2005 championship to your grandkids? How long will that banner hang over the outside right field wall of the Cell?

You can't market this stuff forever. How about this: Charles Comiskey is the greatest owner the Sox ever had bcause he brought us championships in 1906 and 1917!

Please. Enough about 2005. It's about SUSTAINING. if you folks want to live in the past forever that's your prerogative, but going an and on and on and on and on about 2005 is not productive. It certainly is NOT relevant to this discussion.

Question: How long should KW be able to rest on the laurels of 2005? When does the 2005 championship stop being a reason to let him run the organization? If you can give me a serious, non-sarcastic, answer I'll take you seriously.

I may disagree with Voodoo, but he isn't throwing out the 2005 championship endlessly as a reason why KW is the greatest GM in the history of the planet.

Let's get some reasoned discussion here, not just person slurs and bombast.

When?

voodoochile
12-07-2007, 10:33 AM
So - will you be crowing about the 2005 championship to your grandkids? How long will that banner hang over the outside right field wall of the Cell?

You can't market this stuff forever. How about this: Charles Comiskey is the greatest owner the Sox ever had bcause he brought us championships in 1906 and 1917!

Please. Enough about 2005. It's about SUSTAINING. if you folks want to live in the past forever that's your prerogative, but going an and on and on and on and on about 2005 is not productive. It certainly is NOT relevant to this discussion.

Question: How long should KW be able to rest on the laurels of 2005? When does the 2005 championship stop being a reason to let him run the organization? If you can give me a serious, non-sarcastic, answer I'll take you seriously.

I may disagree with Voodoo, but he isn't throwing out the 2005 championship endlessly as a reason why KW is the greatest GM in the history of the planet.

Let's get some reasoned discussion here, not just person slurs and bombast.

When?

I'm going to turn that around on you?

How long do YOU think KW deserves to be given free rein to run the team?

For me it's up to a decade provided he continues to be competitive during that decade and makes an honest run at the playoffs most years.

JNS
12-07-2007, 10:57 AM
I'm going to turn that around on you?

How long do YOU think KW deserves to be given free rein to run the team?

For me it's up to a decade provided he continues to be competitive during that decade and makes an honest run at the playoffs most years.

Fair enough.

I would give him - based on everything, not just 2005 - through the 2009 season.

If the system doesn't show signs of a significant come-back, and if the big club isn't noticeably improving, he should be gone after the 2009 season.

Now, I don't much like the guy, and I like his boss much, much less -I'd like to see ownership and upper management change now, or yesterday, but that's just me. To be fair, I think he gets 2008 and 2009.

NOW - if he as you put it, he keeps (or returns) the team to competitiveness and "makes an honest run at the playoffs" most (doesn't need to be all) years, he can stay forever.

Just one fan's opinion with a piece of an 81-game plan. BTW, the four of us who own the plan are in our own flame war about this. I'm pretty much in the middle. Another guy HATES KW and wants him gone last year. A third takes your position more or less, and the fourth just wants to go to the Beers of the World stand.

Again, as much as I dislike KW (who, through a spokesman is refusing to talk to the media right now which is a good move given his habit of blowing up), he was nothing compared to that ignoramus, publicity-hound, incompetent Ed Short in the mid-60s. Frank Lane was fun but a bit of a disaster as well. I loved Veeck, but he was broke and could not run the ball club seriously - he had to resort to silly stuff and rent-a-player to survive. I still believe that if Hemond had a budget that was workable he would have been the one who would have built the best, sustainable franchise.

voodoochile
12-07-2007, 11:04 AM
Fair enough.

I would give him - based on everything, not just 2005 - through the 2009 season.

If the system doesn't show signs of a significant come-back, and if the big club isn't noticeably improving, he should be gone after the 2009 season.

Now, I don't much like the guy, and I like his boss much, much less -I'd like to see ownership and upper management change now, or yesterday, but that's just me. To be fair, I think he gets 2008 and 2009.

NOW - if he as you put it, he keeps (or returns) the team to competitiveness and "makes an honest run at the playoffs" most (doesn't need to be all) years, he can stay forever.

Just one fan's opinion with a piece of an 81-game plan. BTW, the four of us who own the plan are in our own flame war about this. I'm pretty much in the middle. Another guy HATES KW and wants him gone last year. A third takes your position more or less, and the fourth just wants to go to the Beers of the World stand.

They used to have Heiniken and Becks on tap, but I think Miller got all the taps in the park a few years back. It was actually one of the few places in Chicago I ever found Heini on tap and it was one of the little extras that made it fun to go to games. I'm too lazy to walk to a stand every time I want a beer after that ended, so I'm stuck with whatever comes down the aisle, but I don't live in Chicago anymore anyway, so not like I have to worry about it anymore...

fquaye149
12-07-2007, 11:05 AM
Give him as long as Weis--through the 2009 season (everything's about Notre Dame!!!)

JNS
12-07-2007, 11:08 AM
They used to have Heiniken and Becks on tap, but I think Miller got all the taps in the park a few years back. It was actually one of the few places in Chicago I ever found Heini on tap and it was one of the little extras that made it fun to go to games. I'm too lazy to walk to a stand every time I want a beer after that ended, so I'm stuck with whatever comes down the aisle, but I don't live in Chicago anymore anyway, so not like I have to worry about it anymore...

My wife was slugging Heineken's last season - I'm sure of it, although it may have been 06 - I'm getting kinda senile. I gave up domestic beer at the park during the Falstaff days. What swill! I don't think I've ever had a Miller or any other inexpensive beer at the Cell - it goes back to the days of Harry and his butterfly net, First Falstaff and then Bud. Yikes!

I was too young to drink the hard booze served at "the world's longest bar" that ran under the lower deck the length of the RF foul line during Veeck's first tenure (I was about 5 - only a few years away from my first guzzle).

JNS
12-07-2007, 11:10 AM
Give him as long as Weis--through the 2009 season (everything's about Notre Dame!!!)

LOL!

I am a U of C guy, but my wife's Dad taught at DePaul for 40 years and her entire family are accredited ND haters.

fquaye149
12-07-2007, 11:13 AM
LOL!

I am a U of C guy, but my wife's Dad taught at DePaul for 40 years and her entire family are accredited ND haters.


:angry::angry::angry:

This, sir, is war (and threadjack)

JNS
12-07-2007, 11:17 AM
:angry::angry::angry:

This, sir, is war (and threadjack)

I surrender! Talk to my in-laws! I'm Switzerland!

Iwritecode
12-07-2007, 12:29 PM
Better than top ten - the Sox are #4 after Yankees, Bosox, Mets (or maybe Angels - I don't remember which).

Thing is, as long as the Sox don't have a lot on the farm - a necessary factor for JR's lousy pay-scale compared to others - they need to spend a lot of dough; to have the ability to match Arnie Munoz of the Angels or Theo Epstein or Steinbrenner.

Now, I'm not suggesting that they can match the Yanks payroll, but I think the market and potential revenue can match Boston's. After all, Boston relies on a regional market - Boston has less than one million.

Its time for theSox to start forking up the dough.This crap they have a 100 mil is silly.In todays market a 100 mil is like have a 70 mil limit.I don't blame Ken yet becuse he has bosses to answer to and you can do so much with little resource you have.At onetime J.R said at one point we'll start spending the $$ when the fans show up.Well we have shown up the last 3 years .2 of the years the Sox beat out the Cubs in t.v revenue. IMO they have to spend the $$ to aguire star type players via Free Angency. Because the Sox are so depleted in the minors they don't have that luury to trade from anymore.


Honestly what do you guys expect the Sox payroll to be? They are a major market team that doesn't have bloated ticket prices (Red Sox), don't have money rolling in from a TV deal (Yankees) and aren't owned by a major newspaper(:whistle:).

ghostfacesox
12-07-2007, 12:57 PM
:angry::angry:

TomBradley72
12-07-2007, 02:04 PM
I think the point is that you are a hypocrite. You expected 90-94 wins out of the 2007 team, which is pretty similar to what KW thought he was going to get. Well, it didn't work out that way. So you've taken it upon yourself to rip KW for being a bad GM when, in fact, you thought he was being a good GM until you had the opportunity to play the hindsight game.



First of all..thanks for making this personal and moving to name calling.

Please review any of the posts I have ever made on WSI and let me know if you can find 1 where I say KW was a bad GM. I never have.

What I have said is that he deserves the scrutiny he's under based on the results for the last 1.5 seasons and the overall condition of the farm system which he has been responsible for for over a decade.

The 2007 White Sox were one of the worst teams in the last 50 years and the farm system is in shambles...my only point is that he deserves the scrutiny and should reduce the talk/bluster in the media.

ilsox7
12-07-2007, 04:26 PM
First of all..thanks for making this personal and moving to name calling.

Please review any of the posts I have ever made on WSI and let me know if you can find 1 where I say KW was a bad GM. I never have.

What I have said is that he deserves the scrutiny he's under based on the results for the last 1.5 seasons and the overall condition of the farm system which he has been responsible for for over a decade.

The 2007 White Sox were one of the worst teams in the last 50 years and the farm system is in shambles...my only point is that he deserves the scrutiny and should reduce the talk/bluster in the media.

Personal? Calling someone a hypocrite based on their internet postings is not making it personal at all. If I called you a jackass (which I am not), then it'd be personal.

You have ripped KW up and down for letting the Sox turn into a 72 win team last year. You've even questioned his qualifications. In this thread alone you've said that you liked the team he put together in 2007, thought it would win 90+ games, but then ripped him for putting together that same exact team!

So which is it? You say that KW deserves scrutiny for putting together a team that you thought would win 90-94 games? I thought they'd win about the same amount, which is why you do not see me posting about how KW's transactions last year were ****ty. I agreed with them then. It'd be hypocritical of me to change my tune a year later. Instead, I say that things turned out really ****ty last year. I was wrong about the team as was KW and 90% of the baseball world.

Also, KW deserves the blame for the state of our farm system. And of course he deserves some critical "feedback." But talking out of both sides of the mouth doesn't fly.

My critical feedback to you is that yes, KW does deserve to be under some scrutiny. But if you're going to be critical of him, it's only fair to post reasoned arguments. When you post a guy's front office/player development qualifications and conveniently leave out the fact that he essentially turned a slightly above average team into a World Champion, your argument loses any credibility it once had.

JNS
12-07-2007, 06:26 PM
Honestly what do you guys expect the Sox payroll to be? They are a major market team that doesn't have bloated ticket prices (Red Sox), don't have money rolling in from a TV deal (Yankees) and aren't owned by a major newspaper(:whistle:).

If they pay that sort of dough in Boston they can pay it here. What's a few hundred bucks?

Do you want a winner or do you want not-cheap-but less-expensive-than-Boston tickets?

You gotta spend a nickel to make a dime sometimes.

SOXandILLINI
12-07-2007, 07:29 PM
This thread doesnt blow at all, everything that is being said is true......K-dub talks more than any other GM in baseball.

I am pretty close, at least proximity wise, to someone who is "technically" 1 of the many owners of the WS, and even he says KW is one of the biggest prima donnas he has ever met, what a shock, huh?

Martinigirl
12-07-2007, 10:15 PM
So - will you be crowing about the 2005 championship to your grandkids? How long will that banner hang over the outside right field wall of the Cell?

You can't market this stuff forever. How about this: Charles Comiskey is the greatest owner the Sox ever had bcause he brought us championships in 1906 and 1917!

Please. Enough about 2005. It's about SUSTAINING. if you folks want to live in the past forever that's your prerogative, but going an and on and on and on and on about 2005 is not productive. It certainly is NOT relevant to this discussion.

Question: How long should KW be able to rest on the laurels of 2005? When does the 2005 championship stop being a reason to let him run the organization? If you can give me a serious, non-sarcastic, answer I'll take you seriously.

I may disagree with Voodoo, but he isn't throwing out the 2005 championship endlessly as a reason why KW is the greatest GM in the history of the planet.

Let's get some reasoned discussion here, not just person slurs and bombast.

When?


SO you are comparing something that happened 26 months ago to 1906? Do you really believe that to be a rational argument? To quote you, PLEASE!

I am not one to bathe in the afterglow of anything for a long time, but I am a rational human being that knows when people are putting forth an effort and to give them credit when they do a good job. If you care to recall, most people thought we were going to kick ass in 2006, and the vast majority of people did not foresee 2007.

I would have an issue with Kenny if I thought he wasn't attempting to put a winner on the field. If he was sitting in an office somewhere, polishing the 2005 trophy, saying that was enough. I do not believe that to be the case. Perhaps you do. That is called a difference of opinion.

Domeshot17
12-07-2007, 10:41 PM
SO you are comparing something that happened 26 months ago to 1906? Do you really believe that to be a rational argument? To quote you, PLEASE!

I am not one to bathe in the afterglow of anything for a long time, but I am a rational human being that knows when people are putting forth an effort and to give them credit when they do a good job. If you care to recall, most people thought we were going to kick ass in 2006, and the vast majority of people did not foresee 2007.

I would have an issue with Kenny if I thought he wasn't attempting to put a winner on the field. If he was sitting in an office somewhere, polishing the 2005 trophy, saying that was enough. I do not believe that to be the case. Perhaps you do. That is called a difference of opinion.

Do you not blame Kenny for 2007? Do you not blame him for striking out miserably in the drafts of the years? Or going into 2007 with an OF of Pods (injury prone) Erstad (injury prone) Anderson (not mlb ready) Crede (injury prone) Uribe (declining) and a bunch of kids who had never proven a thing in the bullpen? I am sorry but a bunch of people saw 2007 coming, and when they brought up how that team wasn't that good, got the same crap about being down on the team.

I think Kenny did a great job putting together 2005, that said, I did not accept Uribe getting fat and happy after it, same goes for Contreras (who is more of a mental midget with his personal life then fat and happy but thats another story), Pods and his inability to play through pain etc. At some point you can't live off your reputation and have to earn your paycheck. Kenny has not been doing that. I don't care how 'hard hes trying'. When you have the job kenny has and make the money he makes and also say the things he says, results are all that matters. I can live with a season like 2006, because no one can help Buehrle going down. But in 2004 he did not give us a 5th starter and refused to address it, and at some point making the playoffs 1 out of 7 times just can not be acceptable. Close only counts when you are playing with horse shoes and hand grenandes.

Again, I don't thnk hes a bad GM. I think hes a terrible scout, but not a bad GM. That said, I don't think hes bullet proof either and some people need to stop being his shield. I promise you Kennys plan was not to leave the Winter Meetings with 2 3b 2 SS no CF no leadoff and one of the worst farms in the league. He has a mess to deal with now, but, luckily, he has 3 months to clean up that mess. I think everyone would be best to reserve judgement, good AND bad, until March.

And I know it won't happen, but if we have a 2007 repeat, we should have a new GM in 2008. If we finish above .500, I give him another year.

Martinigirl
12-07-2007, 10:50 PM
Do you not blame Kenny for 2007? Do you not blame him for striking out miserably in the drafts of the years? Or going into 2007 with an OF of Pods (injury prone) Erstad (injury prone) Anderson (not mlb ready) Crede (injury prone) Uribe (declining) and a bunch of kids who had never proven a thing in the bullpen? I am sorry but a bunch of people saw 2007 coming, and when they brought up how that team wasn't that good, got the same crap about being down on the team.

I think Kenny did a great job putting together 2005, that said, I did not accept Uribe getting fat and happy after it, same goes for Contreras (who is more of a mental midget with his personal life then fat and happy but thats another story), Pods and his inability to play through pain etc. At some point you can't live off your reputation and have to earn your paycheck. Kenny has not been doing that. I don't care how 'hard hes trying'. When you have the job kenny has and make the money he makes and also saw the things he says, results are all that matters. I can live with a season like 2006, because no one can help Buehrle going down. But in 2004 he did not give us a 5th starter and refused to address it, and at some point making the playoffs 1 out of 7 times just can not be acceptable. Close only counts when you are playing with horse shoes and hand grenandes.

Again, I don't thnk hes a bad GM. I think hes a terrible scout, but not a bad GM. That said, I don't think hes bullet proof either and some people need to stop being his shield. I promise you Kennys plan was not to leave the Winter Meetings with 2 3b 2 SS no CF no leadoff and one of the worst farms in the league. He has a mess to deal with now, but, luckily, he has 3 months to clean up that mess. I think everyone would be best to reserve judgement, good AND bad, until March.

And I know it won't happen, but if we have a 2007 repeat, we should have a new GM in 2008. If we finish above .500, I give him another year.

I don't think "blame" is the right word. I don't "blame" Kenny for players in 2007 who didn't perform to what 99.9% people believed to be their potential. Did you really look at are lineup on April 1, 2007 and see our future?

And even you are saying there is 3 months to right the ship, so if that is the case, don't you think people need to get a grip and stop acting like the Apocalypse is right around the corne? A little perspective can go a long way in baseball fandom, and in life in general. A lot of people on this site suddenly seem to be totally oblivious to that fact.

Domeshot17
12-07-2007, 11:04 PM
I don't think "blame" is the right word. I don't "blame" Kenny for players in 2007 who didn't perform to what 99.9% people believed to be their potential. Did you really look at are lineup on April 1, 2007 and see our future?

And even you are saying there is 3 months to right the ship, so if that is the case, don't you think people need to get a grip and stop acting like the Apocalypse is right around the corne? A little perspective can go a long way in baseball fandom, and in life in general. A lot of people on this site suddenly seem to be totally oblivious to that fact.

Who really did not perform in 2007? Thats what is confusing me. I mean if you don't want to take my word for it you can find the offseason threads from last year ripping apart that bullpen. Yes, people also predicted Pods would shockingly spend most his time on the DL with Erstad. I mean for a long long stretch we had a 7 8 9 1 2 of Uribe Andy Gonzalez Richar Owens Fields with Terrero and Cintron worked in. Kenny built that. A lot of people saw Crede's injury coming, he died in 2006 with his back injury down the stretch. Ozuna was a FREAK INJURY, and that hurt big, and instead of making a trade for a role player, we used gonzalez.

I mean you could say Thome (hurt) underperformed, Dye (hurt) under performed, Konerko (with NO PROTECTION AROUND HIM) played sub par, Crede's surgery everyone near was coming sooner or later, Pods and Erstad you had to know would be on the DL most the year. It wasn't a fluke, it was a team that had to have a lot of best case sceneriors happen and had 1, the starting pitching for the most part rebounded.

Im still pissed about 2007 to be honest. Like I said, 2006 I can feel for Kenny because Burls and Contreras imploded, those 2 alone cost us the playoffs, and the bullpen did little to help. but 2007 Kenny got stubborn and prideful and did things his way instead of the right way.

I agree with you that 2008 needs to be played. I had the knee jerk the season is over reaction when Detroit kicked us in the crotch and stole our guy while we gasped for air, but stranger things have happened and HOPEFULLY Sheffield goes down again and Renteria sucks back in the AL again etc. But I also don't feel safe with this team, so I think judgement should be reserved either way until march.

I guess it is like Kenny Williams is getting dressed for a big event in March. He went to the mall talking about how awesome of clothes he would buy, saw the price tags, and left with 3 pairs of pants an undershirt and 2 left shoes. He has until march to get dressed, but the current outfit is not going get him anywhere.

Martinigirl
12-07-2007, 11:16 PM
I guess it is like Kenny Williams is getting dressed for a big event in March. He went to the mall talking about how awesome of clothes he would buy, saw the price tags, and left with 3 pairs of pants an undershirt and 2 left shoes. He has until march to get dressed, but the current outfit is not going get him anywhere.

But when the event he is supposed to be getting the ensemble for is not for 3 months, who cares if he didn't get anything at the mall this week? All that matters is that when the event starts, he is ready to go.

I personally do not understand the incestant *****ing that is taking place on this board months in advance of the season. There is more than enough time to correct what needs to be corrected. If April 1st rolls around and nothing has changed, then go ahead and freak out all you want, but I don't understand the need to do it now. Maybe it is repression or denial, but I will not flip out until I am absolutely sure that Kenny has decided not to try to help my team. And I am nowhere near that point on December 7th.

JNS
12-07-2007, 11:18 PM
SO you are comparing something that happened 26 months ago to 1906? Do you really believe that to be a rational argument? To quote you, PLEASE!

I am not one to bathe in the afterglow of anything for a long time, but I am a rational human being that knows when people are putting forth an effort and to give them credit when they do a good job. If you care to recall, most people thought we were going to kick ass in 2006, and the vast majority of people did not foresee 2007.

I would have an issue with Kenny if I thought he wasn't attempting to put a winner on the field. If he was sitting in an office somewhere, polishing the 2005 trophy, saying that was enough. I do not believe that to be the case. Perhaps you do. That is called a difference of opinion.

Please name one - right ONE - GM who does not want to put a winner on the field.

THAT'S THEIR JOB FERCHRISSAKES! Doesn't mean he's competent, and that's what this discussion is about - competency. Not what he wants to do, but whether he is vcapable of doing it (again).

Please read my response to Voodoo above. he's willing to give the guy ten years. I'm not. That's an honest disagreement. But I'm sick of this St. Kenny stuff. The guy acted like a compete jerk the other day - totally unprofessional.

Oh right - it's everyone else's fault - the media, us "gloom and doomers", the players, other big mouth executives, the Tri-Lateral Commission, Bob Dylan.

But not Kenny. Or Jerry. Please.

JNS
12-07-2007, 11:25 PM
I don't think "blame" is the right word. I don't "blame" Kenny for players in 2007 who didn't perform to what 99.9% people believed to be their potential. Did you really look at are lineup on April 1, 2007 and see our future?

And even you are saying there is 3 months to right the ship, so if that is the case, don't you think people need to get a grip and stop acting like the Apocalypse is right around the corne? A little perspective can go a long way in baseball fandom, and in life in general. A lot of people on this site suddenly seem to be totally oblivious to that fact.

Were those players dogging it? Many of us saw the 2007 team as weak - up the middle, especially CF and SS, and the #5 starter. The point is, The Tribe and Detroit didn't stand still, and the Sox did. That's KW's job.

Again, it isn't just about winning one title. It's about sustainability. The Sox were competitive in 06. That's all I ask. They were not in 07, and I doubt they will be in 08 unless he really pulls a rabbit out of his hat. We'll see about that - there is still plenty of time - but it's highly unlikely.

Now the savior is Juan Pierre. Jeez.

It isn't the Apocalypse, just bad baseball ownership and management. I've lived with a lot of really bad Sox teams for over 40 years - a couple of more won't hurt all that badly, but it does annoy me.

JNS
12-07-2007, 11:28 PM
I guess it is like Kenny Williams is getting dressed for a big event in March. He went to the mall talking about how awesome of clothes he would buy, saw the price tags, and left with 3 pairs of pants an undershirt and 2 left shoes. He has until march to get dressed, but the current outfit is not going get him anywhere.

Well put. And he's still bragging about the threads!

Martinigirl
12-07-2007, 11:29 PM
Please name one - right ONE - GM who does not want to put a winner on the field.

THAT'S THEIR JOB FERCHRISSAKES! Doesn't mean he's competent, and that's what this discussion is about - competency. Not what he wants to do, but whether he is vcapable of doing it (again).

Please read my response to Voodoo above. he's willing to give the guy ten years. I'm not. That's an honest disagreement. But I'm sick of this St. Kenny stuff. The guy acted like a compete jerk the other day - totally unprofessional.

Oh right - it's everyone else's fault - the media, us "gloom and doomers", the players, other big mouth executives, the Tri-Lateral Commission, Bob Dylan.

But not Kenny. Or Jerry. Please.

Please! Did you see the interview from which the quote from Kenny was taken on Chicago Tribune Live? I did, and I can tell you the man was joking. The quote was totally taken out of context.

And for such and incompetent GM, he has a World Series ring, which not most other GMs don't have. I am not quite sure what else you think the man needs to do to prove his competency, but whatever. I disagree with you, you disagree with me. I am fine with that.

JNS
12-07-2007, 11:38 PM
Please! Did you see the interview from which the quote from Kenny was taken on Chicago Tribune Live? I did, and I can tell you the man was joking. The quote was totally taken out of context.

And for such and incompetent GM, he has a World Series ring, which not most other GMs don't have. I am not quite sure what else you think the man needs to do to prove his competency, but whatever. I disagree with you, you disagree with me. I am fine with that.

I saw it too - KW is not a man or irony. He has never told a joke in public that I have ever heard. Sorry, I don't buy it, especially in light of his comment about "big-mouth executives." He's insufferable - only topped by his boss on that account. "Out of context" is the last resort of the perennial foot-in-mouth victim. it just doesn't wash.

And please spare me the WS ring stuff. That's history. Winning teams don't moon over that stuff - they go out and do it again.

voodoochile
12-07-2007, 11:51 PM
I saw it too - KW is not a man or irony. He has never told a joke in public that I have ever heard. Sorry, I don't buy it, especially in light of his comment about "big-mouth executives." He's insufferable - only topped by his boss on that account. "Out of context" is the last resort of the perennial foot-in-mouth victim. it just doesn't wash.

And please spare me the WS ring stuff. That's history. Winning teams don't moon over that stuff - they go out and do it again.

Might your own opinion of JR and KW flavor the things you hear them say? If you don't think they are capable of humor then you won't hear it.

Secondly, it's been two years since the Sox won a WS ring. It's not something to hang a lifetime award on, but it's certainly recent enough (more so given the Sox inept history) to be factored into any personnel decisions both in terms of management and in terms of players. Some of the payroll problems the Sox have that are currently limiting their flexibility are due to them rightfully rewarding players who helped win that championship. Not only as a reward but because those players were proven winners who theoretically help the Sox return to the playoffs in years to come. There are very few players signed long term who even in hindsight are guaranteed to be a bust for the remainder of their time as a White Sox and none that were obvious at the time of that signing, so again, hindsight is 20/20 but given the way things have unfolded faulting KW for the way things have gone seems a stretch. At least faulting him as much as you currently are, IMO.

SBSoxFan
12-07-2007, 11:59 PM
And please spare me the WS ring stuff. That's history. Winning teams don't moon over that stuff - they go out and do it again.

What do you mean by "go out and do it again"? Do you realize there hasn't been a repeat champion since 2000? Or that the only team to win more than one championship this decade is the Boston Red Sox? Or that you have to go back to 1991 to find the last time a current member of the AL Central won the World Series? So, I'm guessing there's very few "winning" teams out there? If the Sox win another world Series in, let's say, 2010, 5 years in between, would that placate you?

I imagine the only thing harder than winning a world series is to win another one. It looked like the Sox had all the pieces in place in 2006, but it didn't happen; 2007 was a disaster. In that respect, the Sox, with their current management/ownership are being tested. They have to learn how to win after being on top, and there's no one around from 1917 to help lead the way. I hope they deal with it better then the fanbase has so far.

JNS
12-08-2007, 12:16 AM
Might your own opinion of JR and KW flavor the things you hear them say? If you don't think they are capable of humor than you won't hear it.

Secondly, it's been two years since the Sox won a WS ring. It's not something to hang a lifetime award on, but it's certainly recent enough (more so given the Sox inept history) to be factored into any personnel decisions both in terms of management and in terms of players. Some of the payroll problems the Sox have that are currently limiting their flexibility are due to them rightfully rewarding players who helped win that championship. Not only as a reward but because those players were proven winners who theoretically help the Sox return to the playoffs in years to come. There are very few players signed long term who even in hindsight are guaranteed to be a bust for the remainder of their time as a White Sox and none that were obvious at the time of that signing, so again, hindsight is 20/20 but given the way things have unfolded faulting KW for the way things have gone seems a stretch. At least faulting him as much as you currently are, IMO.

This is about 40 years of this stuff - there was a lot of fear after 05 that JR would in fact rest on the laurels of that ring. To me, the moves that were made (Thome, Vasquez, in spite of how Chris Young turned out) showed that they were pushing for more - great!

But something happened. I started to get suspicious after KW resigned Pods about one year ago. And the reaction to 07 on the part of management - lots of talk, one good trade, and no significant signings (yet, I admit) are a huge red flag to me, given JR's history and the lack of consistency over his 26 years of ownership.

But JR's tenure (or KW's) doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's all the decades before that as well. Plus, the Sox have never been richer. Us fans have done everything management has asked us to do. Now it's time for management to deliver - not just try, but to do it. It's called sustaining success. KW talks about it, but it does not seem to be happening.

I'm old enough to have been here before.

Two other things - KW is not known for his sense of humor or irony - if it was a joke it was the first one he's ever told in public.

Read the letter a friend sent to me yesterday - I pasted into the KW hating thread. It's hilarious. He's really, really pissed. He doesn't really mean it, but he reflects the complete frustration of many very long-time Sox fans who see us heading for the abyss again after a shining beam of light illuminated us for a little while.

I hope he's wrong - but it's pretty funny.

TomBradley72
12-08-2007, 11:16 AM
Do you not blame Kenny for 2007? Do you not blame him for striking out miserably in the drafts of the years? Or going into 2007 with an OF of Pods (injury prone) Erstad (injury prone) Anderson (not mlb ready) Crede (injury prone) Uribe (declining) and a bunch of kids who had never proven a thing in the bullpen? I am sorry but a bunch of people saw 2007 coming, and when they brought up how that team wasn't that good, got the same crap about being down on the team.

I think Kenny did a great job putting together 2005, that said, I did not accept Uribe getting fat and happy after it, same goes for Contreras (who is more of a mental midget with his personal life then fat and happy but thats another story), Pods and his inability to play through pain etc. At some point you can't live off your reputation and have to earn your paycheck. Kenny has not been doing that. I don't care how 'hard hes trying'. When you have the job kenny has and make the money he makes and also say the things he says, results are all that matters. I can live with a season like 2006, because no one can help Buehrle going down. But in 2004 he did not give us a 5th starter and refused to address it, and at some point making the playoffs 1 out of 7 times just can not be acceptable. Close only counts when you are playing with horse shoes and hand grenandes.

Again, I don't thnk hes a bad GM. I think hes a terrible scout, but not a bad GM. That said, I don't think hes bullet proof either and some people need to stop being his shield. I promise you Kennys plan was not to leave the Winter Meetings with 2 3b 2 SS no CF no leadoff and one of the worst farms in the league. He has a mess to deal with now, but, luckily, he has 3 months to clean up that mess. I think everyone would be best to reserve judgement, good AND bad, until March.

And I know it won't happen, but if we have a 2007 repeat, we should have a new GM in 2008. If we finish above .500, I give him another year.

:nod:

TomBradley72
12-08-2007, 11:25 AM
In this thread alone you've said that you liked the team he put together in 2007, thought it would win 90+ games, but then ripped him for putting together that same exact team!

So which is it? You say that KW deserves scrutiny for putting together a team that you thought would win 90-94 games?

I am not a professional GM who is well paid to deliver results. I'm just a guy who works for a living, takes care of his family, and follows baseball/White Sox passionately. Just because I was optimistic heading into 2007 but am now concerned about the direction of the franchise and KW's leadership doesn't make me a hypocrite. I have 8 more months worth of information/experience now...so my opinion has changed.

I'm a diehard fan...I'm ALWAYS optimistic going into the season.

Iguana775
12-08-2007, 05:19 PM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-071205sox,1,6148020.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but this quote really ticked me off.



Better position to contend with US?

I read that as if he is saying we were better than them as the offseason began.

I don't know his actual tone when he said that so I may be jumping the gun.

I bet he forgot the teal.