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getonbckthr
12-05-2007, 05:05 PM
Since so many people think we can still contend i'm anxious to hear what ideas you guys have to make this team as it stands a contender in 08? Since my opinion is no chance I will not provide any ideas because at this point I have none. Please be realistic. Clearly we won't be able to do Contreras for Bedard.

jsg-07
12-05-2007, 05:49 PM
Since so many people think we can still contend i'm anxious to hear what ideas you guys have to make this team as it stands a contender in 08? Since my opinion is no chance I will not provide any ideas because at this point I have none. Please be realistic. Clearly we won't be able to do Contreras for Bedard.

Debatable of course but I definately think we would still need to pull off some sort of blockbuster trade. Maybe Konerko to the Angels for Figgins or something along those lines (I know that has been discussed with pro's and con's of doing that trade).

There are teams out there looking for third basemen and we have two one of which (Joe Crede) someone may be willing to take a gamble on and give us some good young talent or bullpen arms for.

We also have Uribe and while I am not expecting much from him, even if we can unload his salary for a high risk high reward bullpen guy, maybe we can get a decent utility infielder or something like that with the money we saved.

With the signing of Rowand (much cheaper than we planned to spend on Hunter or aquiring Cabrera), we could have some free cash (along with losing crede, uribe, pods, etc) to get another starter like Carlos Silva as a fourth or fifth starter.

Of course it would require guys like Quentin, Fields and Richar to step up, as well as a few others but this way we can go somewhat younger, still have veterans to help compete now and go from there.

I am not going to get crazy with trades and start naming exact guys and give my dream line-up because we all know that none of it is going to happen the way anyone plans. No one expected the angels to swoop in on hunter, no one expected us to get thome, etc.

But I think there are still logical deals out there that help us both now and in the future.

russ99
12-05-2007, 05:54 PM
Debatable of course but I definately think we would still need to pull off some sort of blockbuster trade. Maybe Konerko to the Angels for Figgins or something along those lines (I know that has been discussed with pro's and con's of doing that trade).

There are teams out there looking for third basemen and we have two one of which (Joe Crede) someone may be willing to take a gamble on and give us some good young talent or bullpen arms for.

We also have Uribe and while I am not expecting much from him, even if we can unload his salary for a high risk high reward bullpen guy, maybe we can get a decent utility infielder or something like that with the money we saved.

With the signing of Rowand (much cheaper than we planned to spend on Hunter or aquiring Cabrera), we could have some free cash (along with losing crede, uribe, pods, etc) to get another starter like Carlos Silva as a fourth or fifth starter.

Of course it would require guys like Quentin, Fields and Richar to step up, as well as a few others but this way we can go somewhat younger, still have veterans to help compete now and go from there.

I am not going to get crazy with trades and start naming exact guys and give my dream line-up because we all know that none of it is going to happen the way anyone plans. No one expected the angels to swoop in on hunter, no one expected us to get thome, etc.

But I think there are still logical deals out there that help us both now and in the future.

One signing and one trade to fill our outfield. I'd go for Rowand and Crisp.

Then I'd grab a decent low-end veteran starter and a middle reliever when FA prices go down in the middle of January, and/or ditch Uribe and Anderson for some other team's problem children.

Kenny should hold on to Crede and try and deal him and Contreras during the season if they prove last year was a fluke, thus raising their value. I don't think we can get that much for them right now with their question marks...

By then we'll know which of the kids can pitch and if any of the bullpen guys have turned it around. Kenny can deal to add as needed.

We're really not that far away.

getonbckthr
12-05-2007, 05:56 PM
One signing and one trade to fill our outfield. I'd go for Rowand and Crisp.

Then I'd grab a decent low-end veteran starter and a middle reliever when prices go down in the middle of January.

We're really not that far away.
We don't need 2 OF'rs. I'm just failing to see where adding either of those guys plus a low end starter and low priced relieverbrings our team up to 95 wins.

jsg-07
12-05-2007, 05:57 PM
One signing and one trade to fill our outfield. I'd go for Rowand and Crisp.

Then I'd grab a decent low-end veteran starter and a middle reliever when prices go down in the middle of January, or ditch Uribe and Anderson for some other team's problem children.

Kenny should hold on to Crede and try and deal him and Contreras during the season if the prove last year was a fluke, thus raising their value. By then we'll know which of the kids can pitch and if any of the bullpen guys have turned it around. Kenny can deal to add as needed.

We're really not that far away.

I would love to have rowand and Crisp. I was just afraid Crisp would be gone in the Santana deal but I'm not sure if that is still happening now that Boston realizes they are the only ones interested anymore.

thomas35forever
12-05-2007, 06:00 PM
I would love to have rowand and Crisp. I was just afraid Crisp would be gone in the Santana deal but I'm not sure if that is still happening now that Boston realizes they are the only ones interested anymore.
Kenny's not gonna go after both. It's either one or the other. At this point, I don't even know which one he would rather take. He keeps denying that he wants to sign Rowand and I thought I heard somewhere he doesn't want Crisp either.

russ99
12-05-2007, 06:01 PM
We don't need 2 OF'rs. I'm just failing to see where adding either of those guys plus a low end starter and low priced relieverbrings our team up to 95 wins.

95 wins? Who gets that... I'd be happy with 85-90 which puts us in Wild Card contention.

We do need 2 OFs, unless you expect either Owens to magically turn into a solid MLB leadoff man and Quentin to recover perfectly from his arm surgery and turn the corner as a MLB hitter.

Also, I'm just throwing names out there. It could be Fukudome, Jones, Bay, McLouth, Ibaņez or any number of players off the radar. We still need 2 OFs. Owens and Quentin aren't going to cut it especially if Jerry approved payroll increases for Hunter and Cabrera.

jsg-07
12-05-2007, 06:02 PM
We don't need 2 OF'rs. I'm just failing to see where adding either of those guys plus a low end starter and low priced relieverbrings our team up to 95 wins.

If Crisp moved to LF and and hit lead off, Rowand could play CF and Quentin can be a back up or get packaged in another deal for all i care. Kenny proved with Uribe that he is not opposed to upgrading even when we have guys.

So then you have

Crisp
Cabrera
Dye
Thome
PK
Rowand
AJ
Fields
Richar

SP of Burls, Javy, Contreras (who may come back pretty solid this year), Danks, FA / Trade / Floyd / Gio, etc

BP would still need some help but again, that is what you can do with guys like Uribe, Anderson, Sweeney, Hell, even that trade that was brought up sending PK to AZ.

Then we get yet another starter, bullpen help and a decent 1B-man.

What you also have to remember is that If this team can stay healty with Crisp and Rowand, it makes guys like PK, Dye, and Thome better. As opposed to last year with Ersted down, Pods down, Dye hurt in the first half, Thome hurt, Crede Hurt, etc...

We had a TON of bad breaks last year and I look forward to next year when people start taking us lightly again.

jsg-07
12-05-2007, 06:04 PM
Kenny's not gonna go after both. It's either one or the other. At this point, I don't even know which one he would rather take. He keeps denying that he wants to sign Rowand and I thought I heard somewhere he doesn't want Crisp either.

Why not...If we signed Rowand Right now at 13-14 Mil per year and Boston said "hey we will trade you Crisp for ....(something reasonable)" you dont think KW would listen??

russ99
12-05-2007, 06:05 PM
If Crisp moved to LF and and hit lead off, Rowand could play CF and Quentin can be a back up or get packaged in another deal for all i care. Kenny proved with Uribe that he is not opposed to upgrading even when we have guys.

So then you have

Crisp
Cabrera
Dye
Thome
PK
Rowand
AJ
Fields
Richar

SP of Burls, Javy, Contreras (who may come back pretty solid this year), Danks, FA / Trade / Floyd / Gio, etc

BP would still need some help but again, that is what you can do with guys like Uribe, Anderson, Sweeney, Hell, even that trade that was brought up sending PK to AZ.

Then we get yet another starter, bullpen help and a decent 1B-man.

What you also have to remember is that If this team can stay healty with Crisp and Rowand, it makes guys like PK, Dye, and Thome better. As opposed to last year with Ersted down, Pods down, Dye hurt in the first half, Thome hurt, Crede Hurt, etc...

We had a TON of bad breaks last year and I look forward to next year when people start taking us lightly again.

I really like our bullpen next year if we replace the middle righty guy (Aardsma/ MacDougal) with a crafty vet.

We're already set with Jenks, Linebrink, Thornton, Logan and Wasserman or Russell.

spiffie
12-05-2007, 06:06 PM
95 wins? Who gets that... I'd be happy with 85-90 which puts us in Wild Card contention.

AL Wild card the last few years:
2007 - 94 wins
2006 - 95 wins
2005 - 95 wins
2004 - 98 wins
2003 - 95 wins
2002 - 99 wins

85-90 wins gets you what the Sox got in 2006 with that many wins...a trip home to watch tv in October.

MarySwiss
12-05-2007, 06:08 PM
Optimism you want? Okay; how's this? Most of the "experts" picked us to finish 4th in the division in 2005.

After what happened, I will always be optimistic. Especially in early December.

russ99
12-05-2007, 06:08 PM
AL Wild card the last few years:
2007 - 94 wins
2006 - 95 wins
2005 - 95 wins
2004 - 98 wins
2003 - 95 wins
2002 - 99 wins

85-90 wins gets you what the Sox got in 2006 with that many wins...a trip home to watch tv in October.

Eep. Didn't realize that. Still, how much of those won going away. I'd bet the #2 team in most of those instances is below the 85 win margin, other than us in 2006, of course...

getonbckthr
12-05-2007, 06:13 PM
Optimism you want? Okay; how's this? Most of the "experts" picked us to finish 4th in the division in 2005.

After what happened, I will always be optimistic. Especially in early December.
Ya but going into 05 no team was built like Detroit is now and the expectations on Cleveland were a year or 2 early.

jsg-07
12-05-2007, 06:14 PM
Any team good enough to get 90 wins, can find the luck somewhere to squeeze out an extra five wins that they probably should not have won.

My point, If the sox put a team together that the nay-sayers can agree is an 88-90 win team, who's to say that team cannot win 95 with some luck or having the ball bounce their way?? How many games did we win that way in 05??

Not to metion, I still dont think Detroit is 100% unbeatable. I think they have some aging guys on that team and could be an injury or two away from struggling themselves.

jsg-07
12-05-2007, 06:19 PM
Ya but going into 05 no team was built like Detroit is now and the expectations on Cleveland were a year or 2 early.

This part of this whole argument is whats killing me. And Im not trying to be an ass here, or anything like that, just trying to have a conversation.

But before this Cabrera thing went down with the Tigers, were you convinced the Sox had no chance against cleveland??? What if Cabrera went to the Mets??

Just because we did not get him and hunter does not mean we cannot get guys that can help us compete.

getonbckthr
12-05-2007, 06:23 PM
This part of this whole argument is whats killing me. And Im not trying to be a dick here, or anything like that, just trying to have a conversation.

But before this Cabrera thing went down with the Tigers, were you convinced the Sox had no chance against cleveland??? What if Cabrera went to the Mets??

Just because we did not get him and hunter does not mean we cannot get guys that can help us compete.
I felt we needed to make a big move to catch CLE and DET. If Miggy went to NYM then a move for Jones or Fukodome and couple trades (Crede, Uribe) to fill other holes would have done it. However since Detroit DID get Cabrera I don't see any moves or combination of moves that would both make up for the ground we needed to recover and the Cabrera deal.

PorkChopExpress
12-05-2007, 06:28 PM
Trade Konerko and Crede to LAAA for Figgins/Willits, Kotchman, and Santana. then you have:

Figgins/Willits CF
Cabrera SS
Thome DH
Dye RF
Kotchman 1B
Fields 3B
Quentin LF
Pierzynski C
Richar 2B

Beuhrle
Vazquez
Contreras
Santana
Floyd/Gio/Danks

As for optimism, remember when the Sox had the slugging lineup that was supposed to win on paper in the 2001-2004 timeframe and that scrappy little Twins team that wasn't supposed to be able to compete always beat us. Play good, smart baseball and you can win no matter who you are up against. The lineup above has some speed, some OBP and some pop. Plus it is young. Just my two cents. I have no reason to think the Angels want Konerko and Crede, but they might.

gr8mexico
12-05-2007, 07:00 PM
I would trade Paul Konerko to the Angels for Howie Kendrick, Kendry Morales, Reggie Willits. Then I would trade Joe Crede for Chris Capuano. Then sign Sean casey to a 1 year contract with a team option in case Kendry Morales doesn't work out well at 1st. This would leave the Sox with alot of money . Then I would try to start trade talks with the Twins for Santana. I would send John Danks , Lance Broadway,Ryan Sweeney and Howie Kendrick for Johan Santana. We Could have a rotation of Johan Santana, Mark Buehrle , Javier Vazquez , Chris Capuano and Jose Contreras
Willits CF
Cabrera SS
Thome DH
Dye RF
Morales 1B
Fields 3B
Quentin LF
Pierzynski C
Richar 2B

Kogs35
12-05-2007, 07:04 PM
Optimism you want? Okay; how's this? Most of the "experts" picked us to finish 4th in the division in 2005.

After what happened, I will always be optimistic. Especially in early December.

and to add world series titles are not won on paper. people need to stop thinking like espn when they hear something not go the sox's way. i guess if espn saids the tigers are going to win the world series it must be true

jsg-07
12-05-2007, 07:29 PM
I felt we needed to make a big move to catch CLE and DET. If Miggy went to NYM then a move for Jones or Fukodome and couple trades (Crede, Uribe) to fill other holes would have done it. However since Detroit DID get Cabrera I don't see any moves or combination of moves that would both make up for the ground we needed to recover and the Cabrera deal.

So then basically... we can still catch cleveland with a couple of good moves??

If I am reading this correctly, you are saying that because detroit got Cabrera, we have no chance to compete in the Central?

getonbckthr
12-05-2007, 07:32 PM
So then basically... we can still catch cleveland with a couple of good moves??

If I am reading this correctly, you are saying that because detroit got Cabrera, we have no chance to compete in the Central?
Cleveland: Yes but thats just 2nd place in division. We would still have NYY/BOS to compete with in the WC.
Detroit: In my opinion yes since they got Cabrera barring some crazy happenings (Michigan falling into the Great Lakes) Detroit should have control of the division.

spiffie
12-05-2007, 07:47 PM
and to add world series titles are not won on paper. people need to stop thinking like espn when they hear something not go the sox's way. i guess if espn saids the tigers are going to win the world series it must be true
Yup, the only possible independent thought one could have is SOX LOOK GREAT IN OH-EIGHT! Anyone who questions how a 70 win team from last year that weakened its starting rotation could possibly not be a 95 win team next year is totally brainwashed by ESPN. Give me a ****ing break. You want to think the Sox will be great next year because either they won in 2005 when some people thought they'd be bad, or because one team with a lot of good players didn't win the last few years (funny how the rich and name-heavy Red Sox are never brought up in this argument), or because somehow our $100 million team will be less selfish than some other $100 million team go right ahead. But don't give me this **** that somehow the only true baseball fans are the ones who look at the teams as they stand and figure that because the Sox are the Sox they must do well, and the rest of us are just crazies.

jsg-07
12-05-2007, 07:50 PM
Cleveland: Yes but thats just 2nd place in division. We would still have NYY/BOS to compete with in the WC.
Detroit: In my opinion yes since they got Cabrera barring some crazy happenings (Michigan falling into the Great Lakes) Detroit should have control of the division.

Ok... so we get second place and a wild card.

And I'm sorry but I disagree that Detroit officially has control of the division. I agree they may be the favorite, but anything can happen in a 162 game season.

I would say we were favorites going into 06. Pretty close to the same strong starting rotation that won us a WS. Added a strong bat like Thome, etc.

Even in 07 we were expected to be better, but injuries happened and that had a major affect on a lot of guys numbers. Good guys who I fully expect to rebound this year if we put solid players back in the line up to back them up. Hell... as i stated before, we could be taken lightly again and sneak up on a lot of people in the begining of the year.

But one guy going to a division rival is no reason to think we cant compete.

spiffie
12-05-2007, 07:50 PM
Eep. Didn't realize that. Still, how much of those won going away. I'd bet the #2 team in most of those instances is below the 85 win margin, other than us in 2006, of course...
2007 - 88 wins
2006 - 90 wins
2005 - 93 wins
2004 - 91 wins
2003 - 93 wins
2002 - 93 wins

Only once in the last six years has the Wild-Card runner up had less than 90 wins.

eastchicagosoxfan
12-05-2007, 08:23 PM
Ya but going into 05 no team was built like Detroit is now and the expectations on Cleveland were a year or 2 early.
The 1984 White Sox were the team beat after the great 1983 season. The '84 team had added Tom Seaver too. They were young, with Kittle, Baines, Walker, Cruz, and " can't miss " prospect Darly Boston. They had great veterans, in Luzinski, Fisk, Paciorek, and super sub Mike Squires. The pitching was fantastic, with Hoyt, Dot, Bannister, Burns, and the aforementioned Seaver. We all know what happened. Play the games.

Tragg
12-05-2007, 08:33 PM
One signing and one trade to fill our outfield. I'd go for Rowand and Crisp.


I am not particularly pessimistic (yet), but I would be if we got Rowand and Crisp.
Neither is an impact back, neither hits leadoff and I don't see how Crisp is an improvement over Jerry Owens.
Crisp had a .330 OBP and 6 homers - that's the kind of production that led to 72 wins.

The last thing the Sox should do is load up with a new edition of mediocre veterans to win 83 games. Vizcaino, Crisp, Capuano, Gonzo (at the age of 110) - pass, please.

nccwsfan
12-05-2007, 09:01 PM
Yup, the only possible independent thought one could have is SOX LOOK GREAT IN OH-EIGHT! Anyone who questions how a 70 win team from last year that weakened its starting rotation could possibly not be a 95 win team next year is totally brainwashed by ESPN. Give me a ****ing break. You want to think the Sox will be great next year because either they won in 2005 when some people thought they'd be bad, or because one team with a lot of good players didn't win the last few years (funny how the rich and name-heavy Red Sox are never brought up in this argument), or because somehow our $100 million team will be less selfish than some other $100 million team go right ahead. But don't give me this **** that somehow the only true baseball fans are the ones who look at the teams as they stand and figure that because the Sox are the Sox they must do well, and the rest of us are just crazies.

It's fair to say the CWS still have plenty of work to do between now and Spring Training and that one of our divisional rivals has bolstered their lineup. But I'm wondering why there are several WSIers who have all but given up any chance whatsoever for the team to compete in 08'. Make this conclusion in 10 weeks, but not today, and not because of a knee-jerk reaction to Cabrera going to Detroit.

I have faith in Kenny Williams to make the necessary moves to field a contender in 2008- that's not being crazy, that's being optimistic.