PDA

View Full Version : Joe Crede


RockyMtnSoxFan
12-05-2007, 11:23 AM
I've noticed that most people here don't include Joe Crede in their expectations for 2008 and beyond. Now, I understand that he's just had a major back surgery, and he might not regain the form he had previously, but it seems to me that until he shows that he can't perform, he should still be considered a valuable part of this team. Remember, it was just a year ago that he was coming off of a breakout year, and he's always given the type of defensive performance that instills confidence in pitchers. While Fields might be a great third baseman in the future, I don't think he currently matches Crede (if he returns to form).

That said, what do people think we should do with Crede? If the consensus is that Fields is our starting 3B, do we trade or DFA Joe?

CHIsoxNation
12-05-2007, 11:28 AM
I've noticed that most people here don't include Joe Crede in their expectations for 2008 and beyond. Now, I understand that he's just had a major back surgery, and he might not regain the form he had previously, but it seems to me that until he shows that he can't perform, he should still be considered a valuable part of this team. Remember, it was just a year ago that he was coming off of a breakout year, and he's always given the type of defensive performance that instills confidence in pitchers. While Fields might be a great third baseman in the future, I don't think he currently matches Crede (if he returns to form).

That said, what do people think we should do with Crede? If the consensus is that Fields is our starting 3B, do we trade or DFA Joe?

Even if Crede does come back as the same Crede that won the Silver Slugger, we are more than likely going to have him for this season and that is it. Apparently Kenny had approached Crede about an extension last year and he said he wanted to play out the 08 season and see what happens. I'd rather get something for him now before letting him walk after the season.

Chicken Dinner
12-05-2007, 11:30 AM
He's in his final arbitration year and his agent is Scott Boras. HE GONE!

voodoochile
12-05-2007, 11:45 AM
I think they at least offer him arbitration because they can't afford to get nothing for him. Even if they let it go all the way through the process they won't be on the hook for more than about 6M which they can afford even if Crede turns out to be injured beyond repair. I do expect them to deal him at some point before the trade deadline.

soxrme
12-05-2007, 11:48 AM
I think they at least offer him arbitration because they can't afford to get nothing for him. Even if they let it go all the way through the process they won't be on the hook for more than about 6M which they can afford even if Crede turns out to be injured beyond repair. I do expect them to deal him at some point before the trade deadline.

Lets hope they offer arbitration and not lose competely on him like we did on All-Star Maggs.

doublem23
12-05-2007, 11:53 AM
Lets hope they offer arbitration and not lose competely on him like we did on All-Star Maggs.

Let's not play a historical revisionist. The Sox didn't offer Magglio arbitration because he could have accepted and the Sox would have been on the hook to owe him a ludicrous amount of money. Meanwhile, Magglio was off in Austria getting some sort of sonar surgery done on his knee - a surgical procudure not legal in the United States.

Ordonez only played 82 games for Detroit in 2005 and was plagued with injuries. Had the Sox offered him arbitration, he may have accepted and then we wouldn't have been able to afford or have a reason to bring in Jermaine Dye, who was a critical part of the success in '05 and won the World Series MVP. Not offering Magglio Ordonez abritration in the 04/05 off-season was the right move.

I swear to god, some of you sound like you'd be willing to trade away the 2005 World Series for a rosy "outlook" for 2008.

voodoochile
12-05-2007, 11:59 AM
Lets hope they offer arbitration and not lose competely on him like we did on All-Star Maggs.

Maggs was different. His base salary the previous season was higher anyway and the Sox might have ended up paying him 11M to sit on his ass all season and then lost him to FA anyway (pretty much what the Tigers did that season). So they cut their losses. Given that they couldn't get independent confirmation that Magglio's knee would ever allow him to play baseball again, I can't really say I blame them.

munchman33
12-05-2007, 12:00 PM
He's coming off major injury. He's heading into the last year of his deal. His agent is Scott Boras. Our best homegrown major league ready prospect plays third base. We just acquired a stud mlb ready prospect to play the only other position our other prospect can play.

I think it's the people who believe Crede's staying that need to explain themselves.

Goose
12-05-2007, 12:00 PM
...and his agent is Scott Boras. HE GONE!

God! This mentality has got to stop!

ComiskeyBrewer
12-05-2007, 12:04 PM
He's in his final arbitration year and his agent is Scott Boras. HE GONE!

You might be right. i found this today.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AkeXgkCanSUYGZxidm.bQNcRvLYF?slug=update sfromthewintermeet&prov=tsn&type=lgns

Milwaukee

The Brewers are having an active day. According to a club official, the club has worked out a contract for free-agent righthander David Riske, who will get a chance to be Milwaukee's closer. In addition, the Brewers are close to obtaining third baseman Joe Crede from the Chicago White Sox. With the addition of Crede, the Brewers could move NL rookie of the year Ryan Braun to left field. Braun had severe defensive problems at third.



Donno how accurate this is, as Riske deal has been in place for almost a week now. But it's something.

Chicken Dinner
12-05-2007, 12:09 PM
God! This mentality has got to stop!

The truth hurts!

johnr1note
12-05-2007, 12:15 PM
I think the reason why Crede is under the radar at the Winter meetings is the current question mark of his health after major back surgery. I have a feeling other clubs aren't willing to jump unless they see him play -- which would mean a deal during spring training at the earliest. But i DO believe Joe will be traded in 2008, or DFA'd if his back proves to not be in the kind of shape he needs it to be.

Lip Man 1
12-05-2007, 12:24 PM
This comment from Kenny regarding Scott Boras and Andruw Jones is revealing and certainly can be applied to Joe Crede's situation:

As told to Scott Merkin at White Sox.com:

"Because of his representation, he's not automatically off the list," said Williams, carefully choosing his words when asked about a Jones-White Sox fit. "He's a lot lower -- a lot lower. He would be a lot lower, but he's not on the list. Andruw Jones is not on our list."

Take it for what it's worth.

Lip

chisoxmike
12-05-2007, 12:27 PM
This comment from Kenny regarding Scott Boras and Andruw Jones is revealing and certainly can be applied to Joe Crede's situation:

As told to Scott Merkin at White Sox.com:

"Because of his representation, he's not automatically off the list," said Williams, carefully choosing his words when asked about a Jones-White Sox fit. "He's a lot lower -- a lot lower. He would be a lot lower, but he's not on the list. Andruw Jones is not on our list."

Take it for what it's worth.

Lip

Geez. Like the post yesterday said, large market team operating like a small market team.

RowanDye
12-05-2007, 12:27 PM
You might be right. i found this today.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AkeXgkCanSUYGZxidm.bQNcRvLYF?slug=update sfromthewintermeet&prov=tsn&type=lgns

Milwaukee

The Brewers are having an active day. According to a club official, the club has worked out a contract for free-agent righthander David Riske, who will get a chance to be Milwaukee's closer. In addition, the Brewers are close to obtaining third baseman Joe Crede from the Chicago White Sox. With the addition of Crede, the Brewers could move NL rookie of the year Ryan Braun to left field. Braun had severe defensive problems at third.



Donno how accurate this is, as Riske deal has been in place for almost a week now. But it's something.

So who are we going to get, Chris Capuano? No thanks. He's a fringe 5th starter in the AL even on a good day.

Bill Hall might be nice, he could provide some insurance for Owens in CF and backup Cabrera at SS. He strikes out way too much though.

How about Tony Gwynn Jr. or a ptiching prospect?

Chicken Dinner
12-05-2007, 12:29 PM
So who are we going to get, Chris Capuano? No thanks. He's a fringe 5th starter in the AL even on a good day.

Bill Hall might be nice, he could provide some insurance for Owens in CF and backup Cabrera at SS. He strikes out way too much though.

How about Tony Gwynn Jr. or a ptiching prospect?

Crede should be worth at least a Prince Fielder caliber player. :D::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

SBSoxFan
12-05-2007, 01:50 PM
Geez. Like the post yesterday said, large market team operating like a small market team.

How so? He didn't say anything about not being able to afford Jones. Rather, KW said that Jones isn't the type of player they need --- hi OBP and low K's --- which seems true enough.

soxrme
12-05-2007, 02:26 PM
Let's not play a historical revisionist. The Sox didn't offer Magglio arbitration because he could have accepted and the Sox would have been on the hook to owe him a ludicrous amount of money. Meanwhile, Magglio was off in Austria getting some sort of sonar surgery done on his knee - a surgical procudure not legal in the United States.

Ordonez only played 82 games for Detroit in 2005 and was plagued with injuries. Had the Sox offered him arbitration, he may have accepted and then we wouldn't have been able to afford or have a reason to bring in Jermaine Dye, who was a critical part of the success in '05 and won the World Series MVP. Not offering Magglio Ordonez abritration in the 04/05 off-season was the right move.

I swear to god, some of you sound like you'd be willing to trade away the 2005 World Series for a rosy "outlook" for 2008.

How do you know it would be a ludicrus amount of money. More than he is making now? Yes he was injured but it didn't bother Detroit who gave him a really good contract. If they would have offered to him then we would have gotten two compensation picks. Read some of Marriotti's columns or listen to Bud Selig about how much money baseball is making. It's only about money for some teams. Every year we hear about the big money free agents we are going after, and we never get them. Now we are going to lose the best fielding 3rd baseman in baseball because of money. He is also injured but we don't want to deal with his agent. Maggs was not the right move and either will Crede!! KW has made a lot of mistakes and you guys keep defending hum

Save McCuddy's
12-05-2007, 04:11 PM
Crede's trade value couldn't possibly be lower right now. We won't be able to get squat for him until midseason at best if he makes it back to the club by April or May and is capable of playing everyday. Teams that are interested in him now are going to gamble that we non-tender him which is still an option.

What I don't get is why KW so steadfastly disavows the strategy of Fields playing left and Crede playing third. Fields will still play alot of third to start the year as Crede won't be ready out of the gates and may need games off each week when he does come back. This irritated me immensely in '06 when Pods got hurt and we didn't bring Fields up to play left then. I was sure that a young bat could have given us a much needed shot in the arm in the second half. What were we waiting for? Saving a year of arbitration eligibility?

Doesn't KW realize that both Fields and Crede would have greater implied value in the market if we: A) weren't signalling to the league that we have ruled out playing Fields and Crede simultaneously and B) if Fields demonstrates the versatility of playing left and third as well?

If you can't get any value for Crede shouldn't you plan on using him this year to make the '08 team the best it can be? This isn't rocket science.

Sargeant79
12-05-2007, 04:27 PM
I've posted something similar to this in the past, as has at least one other poster (sorry...it's escaping me at the moment who that was and I don't have time to search right now)

But in my dream world, we have both Crede and Fields on the roster in 2008, and given Ozzie's propensity for resting guys, it might work out well.

Crede might need a day or two off per week in order to maintain his health, and Fields can sub for him at 3rd on those days.

Let him also play in LF twice a week, with Carlos Quentin getting a shot at being the primary left fielder, although Jerry Owens and/or Pablo Ozuna could get a start there once a week as well.

Fields could also DH against lefties once or twice a week since Thome tends not to do so hot against them.

This plan gets everybody about 5 starts a week (which given that Ozzie tends to rest his starters once every 5 or 6 days, is about normal) and provides some great insurance if anyone gets hurt. All that's missing is the regular center fielder.

NardiWasHere
12-05-2007, 04:45 PM
All that's missing is the regular center fielder.

and a leadoff hitter

Sargeant79
12-05-2007, 04:52 PM
and a leadoff hitter

True. But given a lot of the publicized options that may be available via trade or free-agency, I just don't see us getting that legit lead-off hitter that we wanted unless we wind up trading for Coco Crisp, who is most decidedly not what most of us wanted anyway. I could see the possiblity of Rowand getting signed with Orlando Cabrera batting leadoff.

JB98
12-05-2007, 04:52 PM
How so? He didn't say anything about not being able to afford Jones. Rather, KW said that Jones isn't the type of player they need --- hi OBP and low K's --- which seems true enough.

I agree. The one thing I agree with KW on so far this offseason is a passing on Andruw Jones.

The middle of the batting order is the LEAST of my worries.

Thome, Konerko, Dye, AJ = strength of the team.

PorkChopExpress
12-05-2007, 04:58 PM
Can we get Willits from the Angels for Crede and possibly a prospect?

JB98
12-05-2007, 05:07 PM
Can we get Willits from the Angels for Crede and possibly a prospect?

I don't like Willits. I'd ask for Figgins and forget about the prospect.

MisterB
12-05-2007, 05:10 PM
How do you know it would be a ludicrus amount of money. More than he is making now? Yes he was injured but it didn't bother Detroit who gave him a really good contract. If they would have offered to him then we would have gotten two compensation picks. Read some of Marriotti's columns or listen to Bud Selig about how much money baseball is making. It's only about money for some teams. Every year we hear about the big money free agents we are going after, and we never get them. Now we are going to lose the best fielding 3rd baseman in baseball because of money. He is also injured but we don't want to deal with his agent. Maggs was not the right move and either will Crede!! KW has made a lot of mistakes and you guys keep defending hum

If the Sox offered Maggs arbitration, they were potentially on the hook for $11.2M minimum for '05 (that's $7.2M more than they paid for Dye). The Tigers paid $6M for Maggs in '05, plus a $6M signing bonus payable AFTER the season IF his knee injury didn't return.

So if the Sox offered arbitration and Maggs accepted, they would have had:
1. No Dye
2. $7.2M that doesn't go toward free agents. (Like Pierzynski, Hermanson and Iguchi, who made $6.5M combined in '05)
3. Half a season of Ordonez

Now take that information and honestly tell me the Sox would have made the postseason in '05. The risk wasn't worth it, and KW was right.

PorkChopExpress
12-05-2007, 05:13 PM
I don't like Willits. I'd ask for Figgins and forget about the prospect.

I guess that's fine too. Can Figgins cover CF? I also assume form your response that you think the trade is possible.

Daver
12-05-2007, 05:19 PM
How do you know it would be a ludicrus amount of money.


Because of the way the arbitration system works, the player makes what he made the year before, at the very least 80% of the previous year, it would have been 10 million for a player coming off major knee surgery.

JB98
12-05-2007, 06:38 PM
I guess that's fine too. Can Figgins cover CF? I also assume form your response that you think the trade is possible.

I think Figgins can play CF. He's not going to be gold glove, but I'll bet he's as good as overrated Rowand. I have no idea whether the trade is possible. If I were KW, I believe I would call the Angels.

sox1970
12-05-2007, 08:40 PM
Can we get Willits from the Angels for Crede and possibly a prospect?

I like this trade idea. To me, the Sox are wasting their money if they overpay Rowand. Willits has had a high OBP in his entire professional career, switch hitter, and probably grindy.

thedudeabides
12-05-2007, 09:06 PM
I think Figgins can play CF. He's not going to be gold glove, but I'll bet he's as good as overrated Rowand. I have no idea whether the trade is possible. If I were KW, I believe I would call the Angels.

This statement shows how far over the top people underrate Rowand's defense. We get it, he's not top three in baseball, but he is a much better outfielder than Figgins. Have you watched these two play CF?

thedudeabides
12-05-2007, 09:16 PM
I think the reason why Crede is under the radar at the Winter meetings is the current question mark of his health after major back surgery. I have a feeling other clubs aren't willing to jump unless they see him play -- which would mean a deal during spring training at the earliest. But i DO believe Joe will be traded in 2008, or DFA'd if his back proves to not be in the kind of shape he needs it to be.

I also think that Kenny was listening, but not necessarily shopping Crede heavily. It sounded like his top priority was to trade for M. Cabrera and that deal revolved around Fields.

We always assumed when Kenny was saying one was going, he meant Crede. It turns out Fields was almost the one to be moved. Now, Crede still may have been moved, unless they planned on Moving Cabrera to left.

I think Kenny will be looking much harder now to move Crede.

FarWestChicago
12-05-2007, 09:30 PM
I swear to god, some of you sound like you'd be willing to trade away the 2005 World Series for a rosy "outlook" for 2008.Some of them? There are tons of them, champagne030, Lip and so many others would would give up that 2005 Championship in a second so they could stop fearing the Tigers for a moment. :rolleyes:

PalehosePlanet
12-05-2007, 09:33 PM
Worst case scenario is that we aren't offrered enogh for Crede and he stays and plays 3rd. This would then push Fields into left, and curtail his progress at 3rd. Also it would slow Quentin's progress as he wouldn't get enough playing time. Not to metion Quentin is a rock solid defender while Josh would be sucking it up in LF.

BTW: JB98, I totally agree with you on Willits. I'm glad that KW went out and got an all around type player like Quentin instead; I think he'll be a fixture in our OF before long. Besides, Willits is not a CF'er is he?

JB98
12-05-2007, 09:41 PM
Worst case scenario is that we aren't offrered enogh for Crede and he stays and plays 3rd. This would then push Fields into left, and curtail his progress at 3rd. Also it would slow Quentin's progress as he wouldn't get enough playing time. Not to metion Quentin is a rock solid defender while Josh would be sucking it up in LF.

BTW: JB98, I totally agree with you on Willits. I'm glad that KW went out and got an all around type player like Quentin instead; I think he'll be a fixture in our OF before long. Besides, Willits is not a CF'er is he?

I think Willits played some CF last year when Matthews was hurt, but he's never been a regular CF. Of course, neither has Figgins.

I don't think Fields in LF is going to happen under any scenario. KW will trade either Crede or Fields soon, IMO.

Tragg
12-05-2007, 11:11 PM
If someone gives Williams what he wants and needs for Crede, great. But that seems really unlikely.

Yea, I know "who are you going to get for him". If that's the case, there's a solution - don't trade him.
Capuano and a similar level of player is someone we assuredly don't need.
Keep both Crede and Fields.

JB98
12-05-2007, 11:17 PM
If someone gives Williams what he wants and needs for Crede, great. But that seems really unlikely.

Yea, I know "who are you going to get for him". If that's the case, there's a solution - don't trade him.
Capuano and a similar level of player is someone we assuredly don't need.
Keep both Crede and Fields.

You know, we still need a bench. Aside from Pablo and Uribe (I guess), who is on our bench right now? Fields could play a super-utility role. He's a good enough athlete. He could probably start four times a week playing a combination of 1B/3B/LF/DH. He hits LHP, unlike several others on this club.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 11:26 PM
Maggs was not the right move


You must be kidding.

This is some sort of ridiculous prank post right?

This can't actually be someone's opinion...it's just...unreal

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 11:27 PM
So who are we going to get, Chris Capuano? No thanks. He's a fringe 5th starter in the AL even on a good day.

Bill Hall might be nice, he could provide some insurance for Owens in CF and backup Cabrera at SS. He strikes out way too much though.

How about Tony Gwynn Jr. or a ptiching prospect?

We'll be lucky to get a PTBNL and a salary dump for Crede. His trade value is at its floor right now

Tragg
12-05-2007, 11:28 PM
You know, we still need a bench. Aside from Pablo and Uribe (I guess), who is on our bench right now? Fields could play a super-utility role. He's a good enough athlete. He could probably start four times a week playing a combination of 1B/3B/LF/DH. He hits LHP, unlike several others on this club.
I agree. Williams said he won't do that, but that may just be posturing (for what end, I don't know). I'd like to see Fields get serious work at 1B in the spring.

RockyMtnSoxFan
12-06-2007, 09:50 AM
Even considering Crede's injury, I think he's a better third baseman right now than Fields. True, Fields hit 23 homers last year, but he also struck out 125 times in only 373 at bats. That's one in every three AB's. Crede has never struck out more than 100. Also, the .244 batting average that Fields posted is in Uribe territory.

I think that if KW wants to field a competitive team this year, he should plan on having Crede start at third, with Fields in left ready to take over at third if it turns out Crede can't perform like he used to. On the other hand, if KW realizes that we probably won't be able to compete with the top teams and decides to look further down the road, Fields should be the primary 3B; or maybe Crede should play there for a while to raise his trade value before handing the job to Fields. Unfortunately, it seems to me that KW hasn't committed to either of these courses of action, instead making a half-hearted attempt to compete in '08 while not improving our chances in the future.

raven1
12-10-2007, 08:57 PM
Fields in left is not necessary - he still has minor league options, so the Sox can start the year with Crede at third & Fields in AAA but able to be called up if Crede either goes down hurt again or gets traded. Since Crede's back makes him a risky bet his trade value is depressed now, but if he proves he can play next year he could probably be traded early in the season to fill any hole the Sox need to fill, even a top of the rotation starter or leadoff hitter. That would make starting the year with Richar, Owens, Floyd, Contreras, and Danks on the roster at least a little less risky.

Grzegorz
12-10-2007, 09:05 PM
That would make starting the year with Richar, Owens, Floyd, Contreras, and Danks on the roster at least a little less risky.

True you may plug a hole and strengthen the roster by dealing Crede. An argument can be made that the swap of Crede for Fields could very well weaken the overall roster.

raven1
12-10-2007, 10:09 PM
True you may plug a hole and strengthen the roster by dealing Crede. An argument can be made that the swap of Crede for Fields could very well weaken the overall roster.

Another reason why it makes sense to keep Crede until we see how the season develops and what real holes need to be filled.

mcp5185
12-11-2007, 06:20 AM
Even considering Crede's injury, I think he's a better third baseman right now than Fields. True, Fields hit 23 homers last year, but he also struck out 125 times in only 373 at bats. That's one in every three AB's. Crede has never struck out more than 100. Also, the .244 batting average that Fields posted is in Uribe territory.

I think that if KW wants to field a competitive team this year, he should plan on having Crede start at third, with Fields in left ready to take over at third if it turns out Crede can't perform like he used to. On the other hand, if KW realizes that we probably won't be able to compete with the top teams and decides to look further down the road, Fields should be the primary 3B; or maybe Crede should play there for a while to raise his trade value before handing the job to Fields. Unfortunately, it seems to me that KW hasn't committed to either of these courses of action, instead making a half-hearted attempt to compete in '08 while not improving our chances in the future.

Offensively Fields is the better option. Sure he strikes out a bunch, but he is more patient and a better home run hitter. Fields had 35 walks in 100 games last year, Crede has never had that many in a full season. Crede is a career .259/.305/.446 hitter coming off of back surgery. Fields in his first major league season was .244/.308/.480.

I know Crede is great defensively but his injury and contract status, mean he is most likely gone. I just don't think you can put Fields in the minors, and KW has said he will not be in LF next year.

jsg-07
12-11-2007, 10:00 AM
What do you guys think of this??

If we could package PK for something good (like a Chone Figgins, etc), do you guys think Crede could handle first base and that maybe it would be a bit less stressfull on his back??

Then maybe you can give Konerko and Fields to the Angels for Figgins and maybe a bullpen arm?? (of course there may be more or less on both sides, but the point of the question, does anyone think Crede at first would be something we can try?)

schmitty9800
12-11-2007, 10:01 AM
I'd be all for holding onto Crede into the season. The market for 3Bs isn't what it could be with Inge on the block.

Craig Grebeck
12-11-2007, 10:03 AM
WHYYYYYYYYYYY would you put Crede at first?

In what world is Figgins/BP arm = Konerko/Fields?

Seriously.

jsg-07
12-11-2007, 10:06 AM
WHYYYYYYYYYYY would you put Crede at first?

In what world is Figgins/BP arm = Konerko/Fields?

Seriously.

Yeah... get your point. I made my point to strike conversation.

My thought is that we'd get a lead off man, which we need, and bullpen help (and if you notice, the point of my post was not necessarily what we would get / give up for konerko, it was to ask if anyone thought Crede at first would be a good idea to take some of the strain off of diving for balls at third).

PorkChopExpress
12-11-2007, 10:08 AM
What do you guys think of this??

If we could package PK for something good (like a Chone Figgins, etc), do you guys think Crede could handle first base and that maybe it would be a bit less stressfull on his back??

Then maybe you can give Konerko and Fields to the Angels for Figgins and maybe a bullpen arm?? (of course there may be more or less on both sides, but the point of the question, does anyone think Crede at first would be something we can try?)

No offense, but why? Crede is a top defender at 3B which is what makes him valuable (assuming he can handle it after surgery). If we were to move him to 1B, there is no guarantee he handles it like hid did 3B, and you thus reduce his value.

Plus, Fields is under control for longer and is cheaper. If you are moving someone to 1B, your better bet would be to move Fields to 1B. Not to mention Konerko alone should be able to net you Figgins + assuming LA is willing to deal.

btrain929
12-11-2007, 10:08 AM
I didn't read this whole thread, so I might have missed it, but isn't the deadline to offer Crede arbitration coming up?

balke
12-11-2007, 10:09 AM
Joe Crede is only an MLB player if he is Joe Crede at 3B. He is one of the worst bats on the team. He plays GG calibur 3B defense, or he goes home. This is his story.

jsg-07
12-11-2007, 10:12 AM
No offense, but why? Crede is a top defender at 3B which is what makes him valuable (assuming he can handle it after surgery). If we were to move him to 1B, there is no guarantee he handles it like hid did 3B, and you thus reduce his value.

Plus, Fields is under control for longer and is cheaper. If you are moving someone to 1B, your better bet would be to move Fields to 1B. Not to mention Konerko alone should be able to net you Figgins + assuming LA is willing to deal.

touche'.... I did not take contract obligations into consideration and I see your point about where Crede gets the most value. I just keep thinking that if we cannot get anything for Crede now, where do you put him if he is struggling a bit with the back injury.

I just think, as much as I like PK, that if we can get a solid lead off hitter like figgins (and more as you seem to think), maybe it is time to say good bye to paulie... But that is another thread.

ode to veeck
12-11-2007, 10:52 AM
. Read some of Marriotti's columns or ...

You more than lost all possible credibility on that one little phrase right there.

In Maggs case, he wouldn't even let team doctors examine his for crissakes--there's no comparison between the two situations here.

ode to veeck
12-11-2007, 10:55 AM
Some of them? There are tons of them, champagne030, Lip and so many others would would give up that 2005 Championship in a second so they could stop fearing the Tigers for a moment. :rolleyes:

lions and tigers and bears ... oh my LOL

ode to veeck
12-11-2007, 10:57 AM
What do you guys think of this??

If we could package PK for something good (like a Chone Figgins, etc), do you guys think Crede could handle first base and that maybe it would be a bit less stressfull on his back??

Then maybe you can give Konerko and Fields to the Angels for Figgins and maybe a bullpen arm?? (of course there may be more or less on both sides, but the point of the question, does anyone think Crede at first would be something we can try?)

No way, if he's healthy, Crede plays 3rd because that's what he's for, end of story. Why would 1B be any less stressful on your back (and why would Joe play it any differently than 3B)

RowanDye
12-11-2007, 10:58 AM
If you can't get anything good for Crede, then you keep him.

:whiner: "But Crede had a bad year last year"

:rolleyes: Well yea so did everyone else. At least he had an excuse.

:whiner: "But Crede doesn't get on base enough"

:rolleyes: Neither do most other third basemen.

:whiner: "But Crede is coming off a serious injury."

:rolleyes: He'll be 9 months post-op before spring training.

:whiner: "But where will Fields play?"

:rolleyes: Just worry about making the best 25 man roster, things will work out.

Trading Crede for a prospect would be a sign from KW that the White Sox are NOT going to contend next year.
Above all else I will be deeply saddened if we are not able to hear a couple more of these next year: JOOOOOECREDE! (http://joecrede.ytmnd.com/)

RockyMtnSoxFan
12-11-2007, 11:20 AM
Offensively Fields is the better option. Sure he strikes out a bunch, but he is more patient and a better home run hitter. Fields had 35 walks in 100 games last year, Crede has never had that many in a full season. Crede is a career .259/.305/.446 hitter coming off of back surgery. Fields in his first major league season was .244/.308/.480.

I know Crede is great defensively but his injury and contract status, mean he is most likely gone. I just don't think you can put Fields in the minors, and KW has said he will not be in LF next year.

Basically, Fields hits home runs and strikes out more frequently than Crede. If that's what you want from your offense, then Fields is better offensively. However, Joe is more of a contact hitter, and to say he doesn't have power as well is a mistake. He hit 30 HRs just a couple of years ago. 2006 was clearly a breakout year for him, and last year is difficult to judge because of the injury. And yes, I also think his value on defense makes up for the extra home runs that Fields hits. If it turns out that Joe can't play at the level he used to, then by all means put Fields in there. But until then, Crede should be the starting 3B.

Look, we've tried to win by swinging for the fences, and it doesn't work. You get a team with long swings where each person is trying to be the hero, rather than working together by getting on base and manufacturing runs. How many solo homers did the Sox hit last year? Contrast that with the style in 2005, when they won a championship with an offense that, despite being somewhat anemic, was able to score runs when it had to.

PorkChopExpress
12-11-2007, 11:23 AM
Basically, Fields hits home runs and strikes out more frequently than Crede. If that's what you want from your offense, then Fields is better offensively. However, Joe is more of a contact hitter, and to say he doesn't have power as well is a mistake. He hit 30 HRs just a couple of years ago. 2006 was clearly a breakout year for him, and last year is difficult to judge because of the injury. And yes, I also think his value on defense makes up for the extra home runs that Fields hits. If it turns out that Joe can't play at the level he used to, then by all means put Fields in there. But until then, Crede should be the starting 3B.

Look, we've tried to win by swinging for the fences, and it doesn't work. You get a team with long swings where each person is trying to be the hero, rather than working together by getting on base and manufacturing runs. How many solo homers did the Sox hit last year? Contrast that with the style in 2005, when they won a championship with an offense that, despite being somewhat anemic, was able to score runs when it had to.

The 2005 Sox were a homerun hitting ballclub.

Nellie_Fox
12-11-2007, 11:30 AM
The 2005 Sox were a homerun hitting ballclub.The 2005 Sox were a team that did a lot of things well. They were not a home run hitting club in the classic sense.

Lip Man 1
12-11-2007, 12:01 PM
The 2005 White Sox were in the top five in the league in the following categories:

Sacrifice Flys
Home Runs
Infield Hits
Stolen bases
Sacrifice Bunts

As Nellie said, they were BALANCED.

Lip

russ99
12-11-2007, 12:25 PM
Considering how messy Arbitration between the Sox and Crede/Boras could go this February, I really believe Joe will be dealt long before numbers are exchanged...

Thomes Forearm
12-11-2007, 05:46 PM
Maggs was not the right move

:?:

Hindsight? 20/20? Yes.

HBaines03
12-11-2007, 07:55 PM
I think you have to look at the available FA 3rd baseman for next year to help answer this question. I think it will be tough to move Joe for what "we" think we should get for him due to his back injury and having not shown if he is capable yet. Since Joe is looking at a possible large FA payday he needs to have a better than solid year to calm any fears from potential suitors so that would be to our advantage if we want to compete this year. I'm not sold on Josh Fields long swing HR potential and 150+ strikeout capability. Apparently the Sox aren't convinced either if the potential was there to trade him for a LF/3B in Miggy Cabrera. I am tempted to take the chance of Crede bombing for the potential very good year & GG defense. If we have a good year he might be inclined to stay if JR/KW & Oz think he has surpassed the back issue.

ode to veeck
12-12-2007, 08:20 AM
Considering how messy Arbitration between the Sox and Crede/Boras could go this February, I really believe Joe will be dealt long before numbers are exchanged...

Boras' recent track record on arbitration is pretty crappy; he hasn't been impressing the arbitrators with his heavy spin on experienced players lately.

soxrme
12-12-2007, 08:43 AM
:?:

Hindsight? 20/20? Yes.
Yes hindsight is easy but the point was we could have got compensation picks for him. This is according to Phil Rogers, Marriotti, and numerous other columnists. I know no one likes Marriotti but he is right on this and a few other things he has written. As far as Maggs going out of the country for a doctor - guess what - he is NOT from this country and probably trusted them more. I just think we should act like a major market team.

Sargeant79
12-12-2007, 09:11 AM
I'm not sold on Josh Fields long swing HR potential and 150+ strikeout capability. Apparently the Sox aren't convinced either if the potential was there to trade him for a LF/3B in Miggy Cabrera.

Cabrera is one of the best offensive players of this decade. You have to give up a lot of talent to acquire someone like that. Just because the Sox were willing to give up Fields to get him doesn't mean they aren't convinced about him. It just means that the Marlins liked him and that was a main piece needed to acquire a player of Cabrera's caliber. I'm fairly certain that acquiring a player like that is just about the only circumstances in which the Sox would give up Fields at this point.

The Sox are pretty well convinced that Fields will be their third baseman for the next 5+ years. That, combined with an almost certain unwillingness to pay what Scott Boras will likely demand for Crede in free agency, means that Crede will probably be moved at the first good opportunity.

SBSoxFan
12-12-2007, 09:14 AM
Yes hindsight is easy but the point was we could have got compensation picks for him. This is according to Phil Rogers, Marriotti, and numerous other columnists. I know no one likes Marriotti but he is right on this and a few other things he has written. As far as Maggs going out of the country for a doctor - guess what - he is NOT from this country and probably trusted them more. I just think we should act like a major market team.

:rolling: Mags isn't from Austria either.

Offering him arbitration was a roll of the dice. Mags would have had to decline for the Sox to get compensation picks. Otherwise, the Sox would be on the books for at least 80% of Mags' salary. As several others have pointed out, many players who were key in '05 and '06, and also some that are still around don't ever come to the Sox. Not to mention the fact that Mags missed half of '05.

Saying it was a bad move isn't correct in hindsight or any other sight. In terms of OPS+, Dye has had 118, 151, and 105 for '05, '06, and '07, respectively with a world series MVP and a 5th place regular season MVP finish. Mags had 113 (with only 82 games played), 112, and 167 and a second place MVP finish --- similar offensive numbers, with Dye making $20.1M less (according to usatoday) than Mags over that timeframe.

russ99
12-12-2007, 09:17 AM
Boras' recent track record on arbitration is pretty crappy; he hasn't been impressing the arbitrators with his heavy spin on experienced players lately.

Yeah, but there's animosity on both sides as to when Joe's surgery was to be done and how rehab was handled.

voodoochile
12-12-2007, 09:47 AM
:?:

Hindsight? 20/20? Yes.

No actually, it was a great job of assessing the situation realizing they didn't have the money to keep Maggs and sign a competent guy to play his position in 2005 they chose to sign the other guy.

The Sox would not have won the WS without JD's bat especially if you plug in the numbers Maggs put up that season when he spent a LOT of time riding the bench. The Sox saw it coming and didn't trust that Maggs would ever put up good numbers again. They were wrong about the latter, but that too is hindsight...

Only one team offered Magglio the contract he wanted and they wrote an escape clause into it - something that is all but unheard of in MLB...

balke
12-12-2007, 09:51 AM
No actually, it was a great job of assessing the situation realizing they didn't have the money to keep Maggs and sign a competent guy to play his position in 2005 they chose to sign the other guy.

The Sox would not have won the WS without JD's bat especially if you plug in the numbers Maggs put up that season when he spent a LOT of time riding the bench. The Sox saw it coming and didn't trust that Maggs would ever put up good numbers again. They were wrong about the latter, but that too is hindsight...

Only one team offered Magglio the contract he wanted and they wrote an escape clause into it - something that is all but unheard of in MLB...


I believe with the contract offered to Maggs by the Sox, they'd be paying him this offseason anyhow after his best season ever. You'd be talking about 20 mil per for the guy, and what a waste of a season that MVP year would've been. Sox got MVP #'s out of Dye with Maggs gone for a season for like 10 mil. I'll take that.

voodoochile
12-12-2007, 10:14 AM
I believe with the contract offered to Maggs by the Sox, they'd be paying him this offseason anyhow after his best season ever. You'd be talking about 20 mil per for the guy, and what a waste of a season that MVP year would've been. Sox got MVP #'s out of Dye with Maggs gone for a season for like 10 mil. I'll take that.

And Dye did it again the following year.

In fact, in 2006 Dye had one of the better offensive seasons anyone on the team has ever had comparable to Hurt in his prime:

.315 .385 .622 :o: 1.007 OPS 44 HR, 120 RBI

His OPS was 180 points higher than Maggs that season and even playing on one leg for the first half of the season last year still managed to put up an OPS of .804 last year.

All of this for about half to 2/3 of what the Kittens are paying Maggs.

Whining about losing Maggs is simply silly. I mean raise your hand if you predicted he would ever have a season like last year...

Thomes Forearm
12-12-2007, 07:08 PM
No actually, it was a great job of assessing the situation realizing they didn't have the money to keep Maggs and sign a competent guy to play his position in 2005 they chose to sign the other guy.

The Sox would not have won the WS without JD's bat especially if you plug in the numbers Maggs put up that season when he spent a LOT of time riding the bench. The Sox saw it coming and didn't trust that Maggs would ever put up good numbers again. They were wrong about the latter, but that too is hindsight...

Only one team offered Magglio the contract he wanted and they wrote an escape clause into it - something that is all but unheard of in MLB...

I agree with you 100%...from a business standpoint, it was insane for Det to offer the 75 mil without any confirmation of his health. I was referring to "soxrme's" obvious lack of knowledge of either business or baseball in general. Yeah, it sucks we passed on giving him a contract, but what guarantee did we have that he would even be worth the type of contract he was asking for...WITHOUT a medical examintaion, no less.

If the WSOX had offered an "out" clause like Det, would we still have signed him to that type of contract? Maybe, but like i said, from a business standpoint it would be incredibly ignorant. The WSOX knew NOTHING about his physical condition. So, yes, in hindsight, the Det contract was the right thing to do. But if that were the present time, there's no way you anyone would (well, with this board I'll use should) give him that contract

Frontman
12-12-2007, 07:15 PM
Maggs was not the right move and either will Crede!!

Hi, did you notice this:

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PHO/AAGS207~2005-White-Sox-World-Series-Champions-Composite-Posters.jpg

One reason that happened is because the Sox passed on Maggs, who refused to allow himself to be examined by Sox doctors. Yes, the moving of Carlos Lee and Maggs in hindsight hurt the club for 2008; as they had incredible 2007 stats.

Granted, in doing so, 2005 happened.

Stop saying that players who were moved were "mistakes" as those "mistakes" led to one big blunder I'd like to see again:

http://peoriachronicle.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/wstrophy.jpg

"Sure looks like an awful mistake there Front."

Brian26
12-12-2007, 07:30 PM
Maggs was not the right move and either will Crede!!

As Voodoo, SBSoxfan, and Frontman have all pointed out, you're wrong.

Bottom line is this: If the Sox offered Mags arbitration and he accepted, the Sox don't win the World Series in 2005, and they certainly wouldn't have won it in '06 or '07. I'm happy with transpired.

santo=dorf
12-12-2007, 07:42 PM
:whiner: "But Crede doesn't get on base enough"

:rolleyes: Neither do most other third basemen.

:?:
In Joe's "peak" season, his OBP of .323 ranked 20th out of 22 qualified third basemen. Only Brandon Inge and Pedro Feliz were worse.

Frontman
12-12-2007, 09:14 PM
I could of sworn today was D-Day for them to sign Crede to avoid arbitration. Am I wrong on that, or did that come and go without a deal being done?

Scottiehaswheels
12-12-2007, 09:21 PM
I still say we're gonna open the season with Joe signed to a fresh 2 year deal and Fields in left. I know KW said he won't be in LF next year, but he's said a few other things that didn't pan out so well...

PalehosePlanet
12-12-2007, 09:25 PM
I could of sworn today was D-Day for them to sign Crede to avoid arbitration. Am I wrong on that, or did that come and go without a deal being done?

I was just thinking the same thing, especially after the cubs non-tendered Prior. IIRC, we have to offer arb by midninght tonight or lose him.

TomBradley72
12-12-2007, 09:29 PM
I still say we're gonna open the season with Joe signed to a fresh 2 year deal and Fields in left. I know KW said he won't be in LF next year, but he's said a few other things that didn't pan out so well...

I'm not sure about the two year deal for Crede...but Fields in LF is the best way to start the season. Allow Crede to prove he's healthy and keep an extra quality bat in the line up.

If it works, you contend for a post season slot. If it doesn't, you trade Crede to a contender who needs him (due to injury, etc.) for a prospect or two and move Fields back to 3B for good.

Fields and Crede BOTH having productive seasons would be a major upgrade from what we saw from LF/3B in 2007.

PushinWeight
12-12-2007, 09:30 PM
Why give up Crede so easily? Give him a shot to prove he is healthy. I love Fields, but he is not the most gifted player with a glove. So why not just put Fields in left and keep Crede at third? That would only make sense and would keep two good bats in our line-up.

DickAllen72
12-12-2007, 09:35 PM
Let Crede prove he's healthy in spring training then try to trade him for something of value.

If you can't get decent value for him by the start of the season, start Fields at 3B against righties and put him at DH against leftys giving Crede the starts at third against LHP. Crede can also come in for Fields as a late inning defensive replacement and maybe get one start a week against RHP.

If he proves healthy and does fairly well, the Sox can probably get decent value for him before the trade deadline.

Scottiehaswheels
12-12-2007, 09:35 PM
I'm not sure about the two year deal for Crede...but Fields in LF is the best way to start the season. Allow Crede to prove he's healthy and keep an extra quality bat in the line up.

If it works, you contend for a post season slot. If it doesn't, you trade Crede to a contender who needs him (due to injury, etc.) for a prospect or two and move Fields back to 3B for good.

Fields and Crede BOTH having productive seasons would be a major upgrade from what we saw from LF/3B in 2007.You gotta figure at this point Joe is kinda worried about his future and a 2 year deal might not be so bad for him at this point. Lets him prove his health while also securing his future if he's not healthy. Neither the Sox nor Joe is locked into a long term deal if Joe returns fantastic or not so much.... Also Boras might be willing to bend a lil in this case as his client is coming off major surgery and right now he needs to keep his clients happy as he's kind of taken a PR hit lately... I think we could get Joe to sign a 2 year deal for $10 mil at this point... Surely in arb. he'll get 6 mil this year so I would think so its kind of a win/win situation... Basically get '09 for $4m from him I figure...

PalehosePlanet
12-12-2007, 09:59 PM
I'm not sure about the two year deal for Crede...but Fields in LF is the best way to start the season. Allow Crede to prove he's healthy and keep an extra quality bat in the line up.

If it works, you contend for a post season slot. If it doesn't, you trade Crede to a contender who needs him (due to injury, etc.) for a prospect or two and move Fields back to 3B for good.

Fields and Crede BOTH having productive seasons would be a major upgrade from what we saw from LF/3B in 2007.

I would be all for this IF, and only if, --- stay with me here --- we then gave Carlos Quentin a shot at the CF job. The kid is an excellent fielder at the corners and has a great arm. We gave another corner OF a shot (Rowand) and it worked out pretty well for us. Accept, Quentin is a much better corner OF than Rownad ever was. I think Carlos has a very bright future but he has to play to get there.

Frontman
12-12-2007, 10:16 PM
I would be all for this IF, and only if, --- stay with me here --- we then gave Carlos Quentin a shot at the CF job. The kid is an excellent fielder at the corners and has a great arm. We gave another corner OF a shot (Rowand) and it worked out pretty well for us. Accept, Quentin is a much better corner OF than Rownad ever was. I think Carlos has a very bright future but he has to play to get there.

It might work.

PalehosePlanet
12-12-2007, 10:38 PM
Joe is not on the list of non-tendered players, so I'm guessing --- although I've seen nothing in print --- that he was offered arbitration.

Frontman
12-12-2007, 10:46 PM
Joe is not on the list of non-tendered players, so I'm guessing --- although I've seen nothing in print --- that he was offered arbitration.

Yeah, nothing on the Sox or mlb sites, and Sportsnight didn't mention anything about him.

I guess we'll know more in the morning.

Tragg
12-12-2007, 11:22 PM
Why give up Crede so easily? Give him a shot to prove he is healthy. I love Fields, but he is not the most gifted player with a glove. So why not just put Fields in left and keep Crede at third? That would only make sense and would keep two good bats in our line-up.
I agree with you. giving up on him now is ridiculous - absolutely selling low. Let's see what he has in the spring.
He's not the greatest offensive player, but he does have decent power in addition to his less than examplary OBP. And of course, superior defense.
There could be worse things than Fields on the bench pinch hitting and starting 3 days a week at 3rd and 1st.

Jerome
12-12-2007, 11:56 PM
He's in his final arbitration year and his agent is Scott Boras. HE GONE!

yep

love him but his decision not to have the surgery after 06 was just one of the many disasters of the 07 White Sox.

ode to veeck
12-13-2007, 12:13 PM
yep

love him but his decision not to have the surgery after 06 was just one of the many disasters of the 07 White Sox.

You can't blame Joe though, its a tough decision and not a clear cut case of which path is better. I have a number of tennis playing buddies who've been in the same situation with their backs and the results on both sides, with and without surgery are about 1/2 and 1/2, and he'll need his back for many more years than he'll be playing MLB.

RowanDye
12-13-2007, 12:35 PM
:?:
In Joe's "peak" season, his OBP of .323 ranked 20th out of 22 qualified third basemen. Only Brandon Inge and Pedro Feliz were worse.

Last year 10 third basemen had an OBP over .340, and 10 had an OBP under .340.

My point was that other than the Chipper Jones, A-Rod, David Wright type of players, 3B is not really a high OBP position.

I don't have time to do a statistical analysis right now, but I would bet that 3B ranks pretty low in average OBP relative to other positions on the field.

If you take out some of the guys that don't even belong playing 3B because of their piss-poor defense it would be even lower.

Edit: In fact I think 3B would rank ahead of only C and CF for the lowest OBP.