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Frater Perdurabo
12-05-2007, 06:27 AM
With all the pants pissing going on among the dark clouds, because they want to blame KW for a move that another team made, I'm posting some reasons why I'm choosing to remain optimistic about 2008.

If this is a one-man quest, so be it. But there's plenty of room on the bandwagon.

1. There are plenty of free agents out there who could improve the Sox;

2. There are plenty of possible trades to explore to improve the team;

3. Count on several Sox players to bounce back from a sub-par 2007 performances (PK, Contreras, Dye);

4. Count on several Sox players to build on promising rookie seasons (Fields, Danks, Richar, Floyd);

5. Several Tigers are among those suspected of being roiders and could be suspended 50 games; some Tigers are old and it's likely they could hit the wall this year;

6. The Twins are about to get weaker;

7. Let's face it, the Royals are the Royals;

8. Cleveland's young roster is due for a let-down after resting on their laurels after their deep 2007 ALCS run (and choke against the Red Sox);

9. There's plenty of time left in December for KW to make more deals;

10. January, February, March.

soxinem1
12-05-2007, 06:50 AM
With all the pants pissing going on among the dark clouds, because they want to blame KW for a move that another team made, I'm posting some reasons why I'm choosing to remain optimistic about 2008.

If this is a one-man quest, so be it. But there's plenty of room on the bandwagon.

1. There are plenty of free agents out there who could improve the Sox;

2. There are plenty of possible trades to explore to improve the team;

3. Count on several Sox players to bounce back from a sub-par 2007 performances (PK, Contreras, Dye);

4. Count on several Sox players to build on promising rookie seasons (Fields, Danks, Richar, Floyd);

5. Several Tigers are among those suspected of being roiders and could be suspended 50 games; some Tigers are old and it's likely they could hit the wall this year;

6. The Twins are about to get weaker;

7. Let's face it, the Royals are the Royals;

8. Cleveland's young roster is due for a let-down after resting on their laurels after their deep 2007 ALCS run (and choke against the Red Sox);

9. There's plenty of time left in December for KW to make more deals;

10. January, February, March.


DET may have iced the season with the FLA trade. Dombrowski has three months to get a couple middle relievers and maybe a back up INF.

What realistic FA's are out there that will want to come here after this trade? The few decent FA's left would have to be overpaid now to come here, and obviously our trade offerings are not appealing to other teams. This trade hurts the Sox in more than one way.

This deal, on paper, puts the Sox in THIRD if MIN trades Santana, FOURTH if he stays. The Tigers could score 1000 runs with this line up, and this may be the best lineup in the Central since the 2000 White Sox. They will just need to produce close to their career norms. Only difference is, DET will have a way better pitching staff than that team.

Who's old, Rodriguez and Rogers? Pudge throws out half the SB attempts, and at worst Rogers gets hurt. Even so, he is much more of a sure thing than Floyd or Danks.

That Royals argument may be running thin. The nucleus they have assembled is top notch.

It's cool to be confident, and I am not being a dark cloud, but I have a feeling this deal changes KW's winter strategy. While many wrote and felt that the 2006 White Sox would just show up and repeat, this team will be brimming with confidence from the first day of ST.

It will be tough......

Navarro's Talent
12-05-2007, 07:05 AM
Yes, there is still a lot of time for the Sox to get stuff done. Obviously, KW is trying his best to be aggressive, so I don't expect him to just stop shopping around because he lost out on his two big "fishes" for the winter. At this point, though, I'm not really sure where he goes. I do, however, hope that he doesn't panic and make a bad signing/trade just to save face. Yes, the Chicago media are going to blast him for this, but he shouldn't just make an acquisition just for the sake of it.

By reading his quotes in today Sun-Times article, it's obvious that he's not interested in Jones or Rowand, so what happens at CF? That's the big question. I don't know if the Sox will pay Fukudome considering the big offers he seems to be getting elsewhere. I don't want Crisp. I don't want Owens. KW's got lots of work to do here.

First off, though, trade Uribe. Please.

ChiSoxPatF
12-05-2007, 07:08 AM
The Sox, Tigers, Twins, Indians, and Royals are all 0-0. We shouldn't throw in the towel yet but - the fact of the matter - is a 2008 pennant is going to be a long-shot.

Its not being a dark cloud, its just a realistic outlook that this season is going to be difficult. I still look forward to what Kenny is going to do and I trust him to build a team that will be fun to watch, but its going to take a long string of fortunate events for the White Sox to win this division.

Frontman
12-05-2007, 07:14 AM
That's a very good breakdown of what's going on this offseason. Since we didn't give the 2005 squad much hope of winning it all at Christmas 2004; I'm not going to start worrying that the team can't do it. I have to see the finished product that takes the field Opening Day before I can say how far they'll go.

And even then, its a loooooooooong season. Who knows what it will bring to the Sox.

eastchicagosoxfan
12-05-2007, 07:25 AM
It's a 162 game season. Let the team get a couple of months of ballgames under their belt. A lot can happen to Detroit. Frater has it right. Injuries, roids, age, can all affect a team. The Sox will add a player or two. Good chemistry can take a team real far too.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 07:36 AM
It's a 162 game season. Let the team get a couple of months of ballgames under their belt. A lot can happen to Detroit. Frater has it right. Injuries, roids, age, can all affect a team. The Sox will add a player or two. Good chemistry can take a team real far too.

That's precisely why it's worth discussing a team in terms of who's better and who's not.

If baseball were a 16-game season, the Sox would have a fighting chance, but short of landing five or six more GOOD players (CF, Leadoff man in LF, starting pitcher, 2-3 middle-relievers) we are not looking like a team that can go toe to toe with the Tigers and Indians over 162 games, unless a 2006 Red Sox slew of injuries and tragedies happen to both teams

soxwon
12-05-2007, 07:50 AM
1A Sox will allways have Da rev, it dont get any better than dat!!!

Zisk77
12-05-2007, 08:10 AM
I'll bite:

1. Cabrera will lose as many games kicking balls at 3b as he wins with his bat.
2. the D-train has looked more like the lil engine that couldn't recently.
3. There's always the wild card.
4. We still own the tiggers head to head.
5. Don't have Andrew miller and Maybin in the division to torment us long term.
6. We still have management that is committed to winning even if does take detors along the way.
7. Polish sausage....Ditka.
8. We still have Buerhle.
9. We'll be better this year than last.
10. Our groundskeeper rulz.

Dice
12-05-2007, 08:14 AM
I'm taking the same stance, let's see what they have on opening day before we panic. Heck, let's at least wait until Spring Training before we grade Williams on his off season.

I can remember all the backlash that the Sox were getting in the 2004 offseason for all their moves.

- First, not resigning Mags had not sit favorably with a lot of people. I was one of them. I didn't like the fact that they didn't resign Mags and that was the first damper of the 2004 offseason.

- Then they go out and sign Jermaine Dye, an often injured RF who played only 65 game the prior year, and that received major criticism.

- The the outrage of trading Carlos Lee, a .300-30-100 guy, for an injury prone CF and an unknown reliever. A lot of "experts" and publications predicted us to finish no higher than 3rd in the division at that point and labled this one of the worst moves of the 2004 off season.

- Then after all that, they go out and sign a chemistry wrecking catcher in AJ Pierzynski.

Then even after that point, we still were predicted to finish no higher than 3rd. Honestly, if we started the season tomorrow, I would worry. BUT the season doesn't start tomorrow. Majority of the moves that I mentioned happened well after the Winter Meetings that year.

So after all the big time moves that happened that off season...Beltran signing with the Mets...Delgado signing with the Marlins...Randy Johnson being traded to the Yankees...Cabrera signing with the Angels...Mulder traded to the Cardinals...Matt Clement signing with the Red Sox...Tim Hudson traded to the Braves...Adrian Beltre signing with the Mariners...Pedro Martinez signing with the Mets...who got the most criticism that off season? Kenny Williams.

So let's calm down and see what happens.

Hitmen77
12-05-2007, 08:16 AM
:threadrules:

Agreed. I can't believe so many Sox fans are ready to throw in the towel. Yes, missing out on Hunter was a disappointment. But there are other CF options out there. Let's see what transpires before opening day before we piss our pants. I have to admit that if we go into opening day with Jerry Owens as our starting CF, I will be very disappointed - but we are not at that point yet.

As far as M. Cabrera, I never figured the Sox were seriously in the running for him until the last few days anyways. Yeah, I'd love to have his bat in our lineup for 2 years, but then again we're already set at 3B. If we're going to bankrupt our already meager farm system, why not do it for a position that we actually need to fill? While Fields will never likely approach Cabrera's numbers, I still think he's going to be a great player for us - and we have him locked up for cheap for years. This allows us to spend money and/or talent to fill other weaknesses on the team.

Detroit will be tough with Cabrera in their lineup, but I don't think there is anything the Sox could have realistically done to match their offer for him. If we had landed Cabrera, our lineup would be fearsome, but our already questionable starting pitching would take an even bigger hit because the promising young guys we are counting on would be gone. Detroit simply had more depth in their system to absorb such a trade. But even for them, there is some risk here. They're going for broke now - let's see how it plays out.

duke of dorwood
12-05-2007, 08:29 AM
This thinking is what Williams counts on-I aint buying it after he fails to back up his banal ravings.

skottyj242
12-05-2007, 08:39 AM
I wish the season started tomorrow.

Chicken Dinner
12-05-2007, 08:57 AM
Kenny said we were going to "get a good one". Just wondering where it is. You have to put some bait on the hook to catch a fish. :?:

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 09:03 AM
I'm taking the same stance, let's see what they have on opening day before we panic. Heck, let's at least wait until Spring Training before we grade Williams on his off season.

I can remember all the backlash that the Sox were getting in the 2004 offseason for all their moves.

- First, not resigning Mags had not sit favorably with a lot of people. I was one of them. I didn't like the fact that they didn't resign Mags and that was the first damper of the 2004 offseason.

- Then they go out and sign Jermaine Dye, an often injured RF who played only 65 game the prior year, and that received major criticism.

- The the outrage of trading Carlos Lee, a .300-30-100 guy, for an injury prone CF and an unknown reliever. A lot of "experts" and publications predicted us to finish no higher than 3rd in the division at that point and labled this one of the worst moves of the 2004 off season.

- Then after all that, they go out and sign a chemistry wrecking catcher in AJ Pierzynski.

Then even after that point, we still were predicted to finish no higher than 3rd. Honestly, if we started the season tomorrow, I would worry. BUT the season doesn't start tomorrow. Majority of the moves that I mentioned happened well after the Winter Meetings that year.

So after all the big time moves that happened that off season...Beltran signing with the Mets...Delgado signing with the Marlins...Randy Johnson being traded to the Yankees...Cabrera signing with the Angels...Mulder traded to the Cardinals...Matt Clement signing with the Red Sox...Tim Hudson traded to the Braves...Adrian Beltre signing with the Mariners...Pedro Martinez signing with the Mets...who got the most criticism that off season? Kenny Williams.

So let's calm down and see what happens.

It's less about "who we don't got" than "who they got"

The Indians and the Tigers are light years beyond the 2005 Twins and Indians...

Plus we have more holes than we did going into 2005 and are coming off a much worse season

HomeFish
12-05-2007, 09:08 AM
What realistic FA's are out there that will want to come here after this trade?


This is exactly what I said after the Carlos Lee/Scott Podsednik trade.

Corlose 15
12-05-2007, 09:11 AM
But haven't you guys heard? This move ensures that the Sox won't compete for the next decade.

I'm absolutely amazed at the pants ****ting reaction by some people on here. The Tigers still don't have a bullpen and some questions on their starting staff. Some people around here just want to ***** about everything so they can say "I told you so" when their fatalistic predictions come remotely true.

Let's see what Kenny has going on. I like that he is focusing on players who are going to work counts and get on base.

IMO, if he puts together a team that will compete this year but maybe is a year away from being really good I'll be fine with that.

Take a step back and go change your drawers people. There is a lot that still needs to shake out.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 09:23 AM
But haven't you guys heard? This move ensures that the Sox won't compete for the next decade.

No one's saying this. But between an increasingly older veteran core and a dearth of non-OF/1B prospects in our system, we are not in a good position to compete in the upcoming years.


I'm absolutely amazed at the pants ****ting reaction by some people on here. The Tigers still don't have a bullpen and some questions on their starting staff.And we do? Every problem the Tigers have in terms of bullpen and questions in the starting staff, we have tenfold. We literally have Jenks, Linebrink, MAYBE Wassermann, and then about 4 gaping holes in the bullpen. We have Burly and Vazquez, and 3 gaping holes in the rotation.

And the worst part is, we don't even have the prospects to fill it with quality players.


Let's see what Kenny has going on. I like that he is focusing on players who are going to work counts and get on base.

IMO, if he puts together a team that will compete this year but maybe is a year away from being really good I'll be fine with that.

Take a step back and go change your drawers people. There is a lot that still needs to shake out.
I hope Kenny can shake things out. Landing a CF (Fukodome) would be a good start. Landing a starting pitcher, even off the junk heap, would be another.

The only problem is, this trade shows that we're not going to be able to put together big time trades anymore...at least not without giving up serious MLB talent. That means we're going to have to plug the majority of our holes with signings, and with our payroll already over 100million, I'm not convinced there's much wiggle room.

But here's what really bothers me. Let's say somehow that Florida HAD accepted what turned out to be a MEAGER offer of Danks, Gio, and Fields--it would have been awesome to have Cabrera--but we STILL would have been screwed--no 3B, ANOTHER hole in the rotation to fill, and we'd have lost our only desirable blue chip prospect.

Our farm system is in dire straits, and what's worse is that we still have many holes to fill on the MLB club

XplodingScorbord
12-05-2007, 09:33 AM
It's actually an interesting psychological phenomenon: Dark Clouds like to rip the team, declare failure, be negative etc., in order to ensure their own happiness: If the team wins, they're happy. If the team loses, they were 'right' and therefor happy.

It's the strategy of the intellectually and emotionally weak.

Goose
12-05-2007, 09:43 AM
Kenny said we were going to "get a good one". Just wondering where it is. You have to put some bait on the hook to catch a fish. :?:

The problem is not that he did/is not baiting the hook, the problem is that the fish don't like the bait.

Hunter's deal was (imo) about the money. He took the cash and ran, with a bit going to a better team as an afterthought. The real telling sign of this off season was the Cabrera deal that sent him and Willis to the Tigers. This points to the deeper issue that the Sox face. We have nothing in the minors to attract the big fish. If nothing else happens after this off season, I hope that at least this one thing changes: The Sox need to begin investing in their youth. They need to hire better scouts, they need to have a plan of what holes can be filled when drafting those players and then they need to sign those kids after they are drafted. They cannot pass on the best players available simply because of who represents them. This approach leaves an empty bank account and provides no leverage as we have just witnessed with the DET-FLA trade. The Sox don't have the cash to throw at FA like some other teams, so they need other currency like young players to trade for those future FAs and then roll the dice and try to resign them, or, better yet, keep some of those kids and bring them up within a mixture of solid vets.

Kenny's Plan 1A would be to fix the broken farm system.

Corlose 15
12-05-2007, 09:43 AM
No one's saying this. But between an increasingly older veteran core and a dearth of non-OF/1B prospects in our system, we are not in a good position to compete in the upcoming years.

And we do? Every problem the Tigers have in terms of bullpen and questions in the starting staff, we have tenfold. We literally have Jenks, Linebrink, MAYBE Wassermann, and then about 4 gaping holes in the bullpen. We have Burly and Vazquez, and 3 gaping holes in the rotation.

And the worst part is, we don't even have the prospects to fill it with quality players.


I hope Kenny can shake things out. Landing a CF (Fukodome) would be a good start. Landing a starting pitcher, even off the junk heap, would be another.

The only problem is, this trade shows that we're not going to be able to put together big time trades anymore...at least not without giving up serious MLB talent. That means we're going to have to plug the majority of our holes with signings, and with our payroll already over 100million, I'm not convinced there's much wiggle room.

But here's what really bothers me. Let's say somehow that Florida HAD accepted what turned out to be a MEAGER offer of Danks, Gio, and Fields--it would have been awesome to have Cabrera--but we STILL would have been screwed--no 3B, ANOTHER hole in the rotation to fill, and we'd have lost our only desirable blue chip prospect.

Our farm system is in dire straits, and what's worse is that we still have many holes to fill on the MLB club

Actually, one poster did say it ensures the Sox won't compete for a decade. Others merely had the Tigers penciled in for 110 wins for the next 4 years.

As for the bullpen I'll bet that Thornton rebounds to an acceptable level and there is no way that MacDougal was can be as bad as he was last year. I would like to see them get at least one maybe two more quality BP arms. Maybe Russell can step into one of those roles and be successful.

As for the rotation, I'm not all that optimistic about Contreras, but they do have prospects to fill the last 2 spots in Danks, Floyd, Egbert, Gonzalez, and Broadway. Maybe you sign Colon for cheap so that you only need one of those guys to pan out but I'd just as soon let those 5 fight for two spots than give money to some mediocre SP.

Considering what they were willing to offer Hunter, I'll bet they've got at least 15M more to spend this year and you have to like what KW has said about targeting high OBP guys who are going to give tough ABs and work the count. Like, I said before, personally I'd like to see them build a good nucleus this year and "compete" then really bust it in next year.

What you say about Cabrera is interesting, I'm not all that disapointed that the Sox didn't get him because I don't think he really fills a need. He is a phenomenal player and it sucks that the Tigers got him but I think the Sox can still work other deals and such to get a competitive team together.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 09:47 AM
It's actually an interesting psychological phenomenon: Dark Clouds like to rip the team, declare failure, be negative etc., in order to ensure their own happiness: If the team wins, they're happy. If the team loses, they were 'right' and therefor happy.

It's the strategy of the intellectually and emotionally weak.

Dark Clouds?

I've been anything but a dark cloud in the past and I'm not being a dark cloud now to say the team is in bad shape relative to its divisional opponents.

You can delude yourself into thinking that we have comparable talent to Cleveland and Detroit, but that doesn't mean I'm playing some sort of Pascalian game to try to make myself happy.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 09:49 AM
Actually, one poster did say it ensures the Sox won't compete for a decade. Others merely had the Tigers penciled in for 110 wins for the next 4 years.

As for the bullpen I'll bet that Thornton rebounds to an acceptable level and there is no way that MacDougal was can be as bad as he was last year. I would like to see them get at least one maybe two more quality BP arms. Maybe Russell can step into one of those roles and be successful.

As for the rotation, I'm not all that optimistic about Contreras, but they do have prospects to fill the last 2 spots in Danks, Floyd, Egbert, Gonzalez, and Broadway. Maybe you sign Colon for cheap so that you only need one of those guys to pan out but I'd just as soon let those 5 fight for two spots than give money to some mediocre SP.

Considering what they were willing to offer Hunter, I'll bet they've got at least 15M more to spend this year and you have to like what KW has said about targeting high OBP guys who are going to give tough ABs and work the count. Like, I said before, personally I'd like to see them build a good nucleus this year and "compete" then really bust it in next year.

What you say about Cabrera is interesting, I'm not all that disapointed that the Sox didn't get him because I don't think he really fills a need. He is a phenomenal player and it sucks that the Tigers got him but I think the Sox can still work other deals and such to get a competitive team together.

I would agree with your assessment. I think we're in position to be an acceptable team next year. I hardly think we've regressed (although losing Garland will probably hurt in terms of consistency in the rotation) and I think it's almost certain that many of the players who sucked will improve.

I just think this franchise is in a bad position given how good Detroit and Cleveland ARE and continue to make themselves...

I'm more worried about how the bottom of this organization is feeding the top, and it seems right now as if the fields are dry....we don't have the payroll to bandage our wounds with FA signings all the time, and the Bedard offers suggest we don't have the talent to make trades for talent....

russ99
12-05-2007, 09:54 AM
Actually I'm really encouraged about missing out on Cabrera. This shows the other GMs that Kenny's willing to trade some of the top young players and prospects on the club for a solid return.

Kenny will get it done, and I really don't think he leaves Nashville without a big acquisition.

Maybe today, after all it is White Sox Wednesday... :D:

XplodingScorbord
12-05-2007, 09:55 AM
Dark Clouds?

I've been anything but a dark cloud in the past and I'm not being a dark cloud now to say the team is in bad shape relative to its divisional opponents.

You can delude yourself into thinking that we have comparable talent to Cleveland and Detroit, but that doesn't mean I'm playing some sort of Pascalian game to try to make myself happy.

I didn't say you were doing any such thing. I didn't say we have comparable talent to anyone. What I'm saying, and I'm right, is that people go negative in situations like this to protect themselves intellectually and emotionally. It's a win-win for them to be negative at a time like this, because they are either eventually happily wrong because we won, or they are happily right because we lost.

I am not saying that everyone who dislikes KW or dislikes the fact that Detroit got the other Cabrera is using this psychological trick on themselves (and by extension, the rest of us), but some are. It's obvious.

asindc
12-05-2007, 09:56 AM
It's actually an interesting psychological phenomenon: Dark Clouds like to rip the team, declare failure, be negative etc., in order to ensure their own happiness: If the team wins, they're happy. If the team loses, they were 'right' and therefor happy.

It's the strategy of the intellectually and emotionally weak.

I think also part of it for some is this need to hear on ESPN that the Sox have made a deal. I call it the Ebay effect. For those familiar, you might know what I'm talking about when I say some bidders get caught up in "winning" a bid and push the price way past the market value. The end effect is usually buyer's remorse. I think some of our fellow Sox fans are caught up in the same way. "We just can't let [fill in opponent name] beat us on that deal? We should be better than them!!!"

It doesn't demonstrate coolness under fire, which is a quality I respect in KW. Now, I don't defend his entire record. While I'm glad he's our GM, he must be held accountable for the less than ideal state of the farm system. As a big market team, we should have better minor league prospects. With that said, however, I think overpaying for FAs is rarely a good idea. History bears this out.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 09:57 AM
I didn't say you were doing any such thing. I didn't say we have comparable talent to anyone. What I'm saying, and I'm right, is that people go negative in situations like this to protect themselves intellectually and emotionally. It's a win-win for them to be negative at a time like this, because they are either eventually happily wrong because we won, or they are happily right because we lost.

I am not saying that everyone who dislikes KW or dislikes the fact that Detroit got the other Cabrera is using this psychological trick on themselves (and by extension, the rest of us), but some are. It's obvious.

I'm just really depressed right now that basically any team in baseball can put together a better package than we can in terms of offering prospects for trade.

I'm also a little perturbed at the way the top 5 payroll teams are throwing money at free agents the way monkeys fling crap at zoo-cage walls

russ99
12-05-2007, 10:02 AM
I'm just really depressed right now that basically any team in baseball can put together a better package than we can in terms of offering prospects for trade.

I'm also a little perturbed at the way the top 5 payroll teams are throwing money at free agents the way monkeys fling crap at zoo-cage walls

Yeah but we knew this for a few years now - no big surprise. Plus results from the new draft/scouting guy won't bubble up for at least 2-3 years from now.

The thing that really hurt the Sox system was Borchard. They broke their signing record by a vast margin on him. Think how much better the system would be right now if the Sox had spread that $5M around for a few drafts.

If you expect the Sox to deal Uribe, Floyd, Anderson and some of our other throwaways for an All-star, you're not dealing with reality. Kenny's a good GM but he's not a hypnotist or miracle worker...

Also, I think it will be better for the Sox in the long run to hold onto the Gio's and Fields' on the team.

As for FA's I really don't fault the top 5 teams, it's teams like KC throwing bags of cash at sub-par roiders like Jose Guillen that fouls up the entire market.

RowanDye
12-05-2007, 10:06 AM
No one's saying this. But between an increasingly older veteran core and a dearth of non-OF/1B prospects in our system, we are not in a good position to compete in the upcoming years.

And we do? Every problem the Tigers have in terms of bullpen and questions in the starting staff, we have tenfold. We literally have Jenks, Linebrink, MAYBE Wassermann, and then about 4 gaping holes in the bullpen. We have Burly and Vazquez, and 3 gaping holes in the rotation.

And the worst part is, we don't even have the prospects to fill it with quality players.


I hope Kenny can shake things out. Landing a CF (Fukodome) would be a good start. Landing a starting pitcher, even off the junk heap, would be another.

The only problem is, this trade shows that we're not going to be able to put together big time trades anymore...at least not without giving up serious MLB talent. That means we're going to have to plug the majority of our holes with signings, and with our payroll already over 100million, I'm not convinced there's much wiggle room.

But here's what really bothers me. Let's say somehow that Florida HAD accepted what turned out to be a MEAGER offer of Danks, Gio, and Fields--it would have been awesome to have Cabrera--but we STILL would have been screwed--no 3B, ANOTHER hole in the rotation to fill, and we'd have lost our only desirable blue chip prospect.

Our farm system is in dire straits, and what's worse is that we still have many holes to fill on the MLB club

Damned if we, damned if we don't eh? If that's true, then why weren't you squawking about this BEFORE yesterday?

We don't have a deep farm system, but most teams would have failed to beat Detroit's cupboard clearing offer.

KW said before the trade that he's looking at free agent options rather than trades AND that he wants high OBP guys who don't strikeout.

Let's hold KW true to that, but give him due time to carry it out. If Cabrera truthfully was never seriously in his plans, then there is something more to come.

Let's not forget the teams of All-Stars that the Yankees have assembled in recent years and failed to win the World Series. The division has gotten tougher to win, but the games still have to be played.

Law11
12-05-2007, 10:08 AM
I 'm just tired of hearing Kenny talking about making impact moves and coming up empty..

AJ Hellraiser
12-05-2007, 10:10 AM
Sure, there are players out there that can help... But really, how big a difference can any of them make?

I am usually optimistic.. But the bottom line is that when I look at the 5 major powerhouses in the AL: Boston, Detroit, Anahiem, Yankees, Indians...

I don't see any way, shape or form we crack that.... and last I checked only 5 of THOSE teams make the playoffs...

That's the main source of my depression right now.... The SOX, in all likelihood, are going to need like a 20 game turnaround to crack that group... AT LEAST... I just struggle to think of any guys KW can bring in that will turn things around that much....

spiffie
12-05-2007, 10:11 AM
It's actually an interesting psychological phenomenon: Dark Clouds like to rip the team, declare failure, be negative etc., in order to ensure their own happiness: If the team wins, they're happy. If the team loses, they were 'right' and therefor happy.

It's the strategy of the intellectually and emotionally weak.
I like this theory, because it automatically presupposes that there can be only one right answer when looking at the Sox, and that answer is that everything is great. Any disagreement from that proves you are more interested in being correct than in the success of the Sox. So in a way, its a lack of faith that dooms the team, rather than anything done by the team. That's smooth.

spiffie
12-05-2007, 10:17 AM
I'm taking the same stance, let's see what they have on opening day before we panic. Heck, let's at least wait until Spring Training before we grade Williams on his off season.

I can remember all the backlash that the Sox were getting in the 2004 offseason for all their moves.

- First, not resigning Mags had not sit favorably with a lot of people. I was one of them. I didn't like the fact that they didn't resign Mags and that was the first damper of the 2004 offseason.

- Then they go out and sign Jermaine Dye, an often injured RF who played only 65 game the prior year, and that received major criticism.

- The the outrage of trading Carlos Lee, a .300-30-100 guy, for an injury prone CF and an unknown reliever. A lot of "experts" and publications predicted us to finish no higher than 3rd in the division at that point and labled this one of the worst moves of the 2004 off season.

- Then after all that, they go out and sign a chemistry wrecking catcher in AJ Pierzynski.

Then even after that point, we still were predicted to finish no higher than 3rd. Honestly, if we started the season tomorrow, I would worry. BUT the season doesn't start tomorrow. Majority of the moves that I mentioned happened well after the Winter Meetings that year.

So after all the big time moves that happened that off season...Beltran signing with the Mets...Delgado signing with the Marlins...Randy Johnson being traded to the Yankees...Cabrera signing with the Angels...Mulder traded to the Cardinals...Matt Clement signing with the Red Sox...Tim Hudson traded to the Braves...Adrian Beltre signing with the Mariners...Pedro Martinez signing with the Mets...who got the most criticism that off season? Kenny Williams.

So let's calm down and see what happens.
I had the 2005 Sox going to the ALCS (sadly I didn't think they'd go all the way) and I have the msg board postings to prove it. Does that mean that I can ignore all the attempts to equate the 2007-2008 offseason to the 2004-2005 offseason, and the rather interesting line of thought that basically goes "people thought we would be bad in 2005 and we won the World Series, so people thinking we're bad going into 2008 can only mean good things" or something to that effect? When our rotation includes more than one, maybe two guys who are dependable starters going into the coming year then I'll listen to that argument, but right now it would take a miracle of biblical proportions for this team to lead the AL in ERA the way the 2005 team did, and that ERA, not the indefatigable will to prove people wrong, is what led that team to success.

BadBobbyJenks
12-05-2007, 10:17 AM
I have a question about the steroid claim you make. How in the world is it going to affect anybody. I dont see any way the mlb can suspend people for doing steroids before the mlb banned it. If they even try to do that there will be a fight the union takes as far as they possibly can

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 10:19 AM
Damned if we, damned if we don't eh? If that's true, then why weren't you squawking about this BEFORE yesterday?



Because frankly, I had my head buried in the sand trying to ignore the problem. I'm reminded of it now. And in fact, all of baseball has been reminded, very publicly, of the problem....

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 10:20 AM
Yeah but we knew this for a few years now - no big surprise. Plus results from the new draft/scouting guy won't bubble up for at least 2-3 years from now.

We knew it, yes, but Kenny has always been able to package young talent.

Perhaps what troubles me is that it seems like this year, the book seems to be out on Kenny's young talent...

voodoochile
12-05-2007, 10:31 AM
I have a question about the steroid claim you make. How in the world is it going to affect anybody. I dont see any way the mlb can suspend people for doing steroids before the mlb banned it. If they even try to do that there will be a fight the union takes as far as they possibly can

They could always use the "don't commit a felony" section of the CBA to suspend players.

Corlose 15
12-05-2007, 10:32 AM
Another thing to consider about the Tigers is they've given up 11 prospects to get Sheffield, Renteria, Cabrera and Willis.

That could come back to bite them eventually.

In terms of the Sox farm system, I think its absolutely crucial that the Sox draft a difference maker/contributer at number 8 this year.

SBSoxFan
12-05-2007, 10:43 AM
It still takes 25 guys. If this were a basketball team, I'd be real worried.

The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Hitmen77
12-05-2007, 10:57 AM
Another thing to consider about the Tigers is they've given up 11 prospects to get Sheffield, Renteria, Cabrera and Willis.

That could come back to bite them eventually.

In terms of the Sox farm system, I think its absolutely crucial that the Sox draft a difference maker/contributer at number 8 this year.

Good point. Not to downplay how great this is short-term for the Tigers. No doubt Cabrera is a huge addition for them.

But, I'm wondering if they have shorted their window for dominance in our division by trading away so many prospects. Both Renteria and Cabrera are free agents after the '09 season. Sheffield is 39 and Rogers is 43 and I don't expect either to be dominant in 08. Maggs will be very good for them again, but likely won't repeat his insane '07 numbers.

Detroit will be tough to beat, no doubt out it. But, some of the doom and gloom around here is just over the top.

soxinem1
12-05-2007, 11:00 AM
Dark Clouds?

I've been anything but a dark cloud in the past and I'm not being a dark cloud now to say the team is in bad shape relative to its divisional opponents.

You can delude yourself into thinking that we have comparable talent to Cleveland and Detroit, but that doesn't mean I'm playing some sort of Pascalian game to try to make myself happy.

Agreed. Let's look at the lineups:

DET

Granderson
Polanco
Sheffield
Ordonez
M. Cabrera
C. Guillen
Renteria
Rodriguez
J. Jones/Thames

Now that is stacked. These guys just put up career norms, and they can score 1000 runs with ease.


CLE

CF Sizemore
SS Peralta
DH Hafner
RF F. Guiterrez
1B Garko
C V. Martinez
3B Blake
2B Barfield/A. Cabrera
LF ?????


WHITE SOX

CF Owens/?????????????
LF Quentin/????????
RF Dye
1B Konerko
3B Crede/Fields
SS O. Cabrera
2B Richar/??????
C Pierzynski
DH Thome

Suffice to say, our line up is dwarfed even if we added Hunter AND Rowand.

All three teams have solid or serviceable top threes, but the back ends of the rotation are very key here, especially with these three teams playing each other as often as they do:

DET: Rogers, Robertson
CLE: Westbrook, Lee/Sowers/Laffey
CHW: Floyd, Danks, Broadway(?)


The only edge I give the White Sox right now is in closers, but each team has better options as a whole in their relief corps.

And this is fact, not being a dark cloud.

Without question, DET hit the off-season running, and yeah, sure, anything can happen. But I just fail to see how KW can lure any of the existing major FA's here now, esp. with this last trade the Tigers made. They see the transaction pages just like us.

With little to offer from the major or minor league rosters, how does making any type of major trade happen?

Sure, I believe that it's a long time until ST, but the options keep getting narrower and narrower.........

Chicken Dinner
12-05-2007, 11:03 AM
The best team "on paper" very rarely wins the WS. :o:

guillen4life13
12-05-2007, 11:03 AM
But haven't you guys heard? This move ensures that the Sox won't compete for the next decade.

I'm absolutely amazed at the pants ****ting reaction by some people on here. The Tigers still don't have a bullpen and some questions on their starting staff. Some people around here just want to ***** about everything so they can say "I told you so" when their fatalistic predictions come remotely true.

Let's see what Kenny has going on. I like that he is focusing on players who are going to work counts and get on base.

IMO, if he puts together a team that will compete this year but maybe is a year away from being really good I'll be fine with that.

Take a step back and go change your drawers people. There is a lot that still needs to shake out.

I don't remember anyone writing that the Sox will not compete for the next decade. I think the next 2-4 years would be a more accurate assessment. The pitching rotation could develop into an awesome 1-4 of homegrowns in Danks, Gio, Floyd and de los Santos. The farm needs to be replenished (not that we didn't know that already) anyways. As someone already said though, the reactions have less to do with the Sox team and more about how much better the competition seems to look. I know, I know, "anything can happen," but, in 2008 and 2009, I do not see how the White Sox will logically be able to even make the playoffs. The pitching is full of questions, with the only sure fire pitcher (more or less) being Buehrle. If Vazquez reverts to pre-'07 form and Contreras pitches they way he has for the last year and a half, then we'd be heavily relying on Danks, Floyd, etc to pull through. I think they're capable of pulling through, but I would not bank on it for '08. KW has already said that he doesn't intend to mess with the rotation anymore.

The Tigers may have traded the future for the present (though Dontrelle and Miggy are both still quite young) and the Indians are gonna find themselves priced out on a lot of their players once they can start earning the big salaries (Sizemore, VMartinez, Sabathia, etc are gonna command some monster contracts when the time comes). Both of these teams could easily find themselves in the position the Sox are in now, just in a couple years.

So, my optimism comes from:

1) The Sox have a decent set of young pitchers that can anchor a rotation.

2) The Sox have several relative bargain players that could fetch some young players with very high ceilings by way of trade.

3) A couple years of sub-.500 records yields high draft picks.

4) Perhaps next time the Sox build back to dominance, the farm will stay strong enough to extend that dominance over a greater time period.

5) Buddy Bell

6) Ken Williams, who, before becoming GM built the farm into one of the best.

7) Good prospects are good trading pieces (this Cabrera/Willis deal just proved that, and the Sox proved that numerous times with deals like Olivo/Reed/Morse-Garcia, Ring-Alomar, etc). Lots of people have been saying that KW is getting a taste of his "under the radar" medicine. It's not just that. KW just doesn't have the farmhands to compete with other teams bidding on specific players like he used to. We just saw this yesterday.

8) JR has shown over the last couple years that he will spend if it makes sense. I know, it's only the beginning of December, but with the number of holes in this team and what's left on the market, I don't know whether a single offseason is going enough to fill all of them up unless someone like Konerko gets traded for multiple players to fill these holes. When the Sox come back, Reinsdorf will open his pocketbook, but unless KW works some real magic over the next few months, I don't see them competing this coming season.

9) Public perception of the Cell (and Bridgeport) has improved dramatically. The Sox won't sell out games, but I don't think the park will be the ghost building I remember it being in the late '90's if a rebuilding project ensues. There will still be incoming revenue, though it will be less.

10) The Tigers and Indians may find themselves in some tough situations when their young, proven guns become free agents and command the big contracts and/or players start retiring. With the market being what it is now, I wonder what kind of deal Sabathia is going to be looking for considering his CYA, the number of innings he eats, his age, etc. He's no Santana, but I'd argue he's the next best LHSP out there, and I'd be very surprised if he and his agent don't know that already. If Maggs keeps his production up, considering market inflation, in two years he will likely be a free agent and will probably look for a 3-5 year deal at the market rate. Two years from now. And I don't see the market slowing down.

Oh, and FYI, fan and sportswriters' response here in Miami has been quite positive about this move. They know Cabrera is going to soon be a $20+mil/year player, and they are very excited about the prospects they just got. The Marlins just might start attracting fans if they end up getting a new ballpark built where the OB stands today. It's a much easier commute for most Miami residents than it is to get to Davie (where Dolphin Stadium is located).

CWSpalehoseCWS
12-05-2007, 11:05 AM
DET may have iced the season with the FLA trade. Dombrowski has three months to get a couple middle relievers and maybe a back up INF.

What realistic FA's are out there that will want to come here after this trade? The few decent FA's left would have to be overpaid now to come here, and obviously our trade offerings are not appealing to other teams. This trade hurts the Sox in more than one way.

This deal, on paper, puts the Sox in THIRD if MIN trades Santana, FOURTH if he stays. The Tigers could score 1000 runs with this line up, and this may be the best lineup in the Central since the 2000 White Sox. They will just need to produce close to their career norms. Only difference is, DET will have a way better pitching staff than that team.

Who's old, Rodriguez and Rogers? Pudge throws out half the SB attempts, and at worst Rogers gets hurt. Even so, he is much more of a sure thing than Floyd or Danks.

That Royals argument may be running thin. The nucleus they have assembled is top notch.

It's cool to be confident, and I am not being a dark cloud, but I have a feeling this deal changes KW's winter strategy. While many wrote and felt that the 2006 White Sox would just show up and repeat, this team will be brimming with confidence from the first day of ST.

It will be tough......

I agree, especially with the Royals statement. One of these years, they're going to sneak up and surprise a few people. I'm not talking about them winning the division, just being able to get around 80 something wins.

soxinem1
12-05-2007, 11:11 AM
6) Ken Williams, who, before becoming GM built the farm into one of the best.

What players came out of his long tenure to back this claim? Fact is, Sox drafts in the past 15 years have yielded very little.

The last good run in the farm system came with Larry Himes. In that respect, no one has come close to him in this generation, not Hemond, Scheuler, or KW.

WizardsofOzzie
12-05-2007, 11:14 AM
It's a 162 game season. Let the team get a couple of months of ballgames under their belt. A lot can happen to Detroit. Frater has it right. Injuries, roids, age, can all affect a team. The Sox will add a player or two. Good chemistry can take a team real far too.

Agreed entirely. We thought we had the WS wrapped up in 06 after bringing nearly everyone from the 05 team back and signing Thome. We all know how that turned out, then we brought nearly the same team that won 90 games from 06 into 07 and we all saw how that turned out. Nothing is automatic

Chicken Dinner
12-05-2007, 11:14 AM
What players came out of his long tenure to back this claim? Fact is, Sox drafts in the past 15 years have yielded very little.

The last good run in the farm system came with Larry Himes. In that respect, no one has come close to him in this generation, not Hemond, Scheuler, or KW.

Joe Borchard

voodoochile
12-05-2007, 11:16 AM
Good point. Not to downplay how great this is short-term for the Tigers. No doubt Cabrera is a huge addition for them.

But, I'm wondering if they have shorted their window for dominance in our division by trading away so many prospects. Both Renteria and Cabrera are free agents after the '09 season. Sheffield is 39 and Rogers is 43 and I don't expect either to be dominant in 08. Maggs will be very good for them again, but likely won't repeat his insane '07 numbers.

Detroit will be tough to beat, no doubt out it. But, some of the doom and gloom around here is just over the top.

:KW
"Here it is, your Xmas present. I got you a pony named Quinten and an action figure named Cabrera who fills holes."

:fans
"But I wanted a super pony named Toriiii and the superduper Cabrera action figure. You suck!"

:KW
"Well, I still have some shopping to do, maybe I'll find a way to make you happy yet."

:fans
"WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!! You suck Kenny Claus.. suck suck suck... I want my super pony NOW! WAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!"

kitekrazy
12-05-2007, 11:18 AM
The Sox, Tigers, Twins, Indians, and Royals are all 0-0. We shouldn't throw in the towel yet but - the fact of the matter - is a 2008 pennant is going to be a long-shot.


There's other things to consider like a team's health. Can a bunch of talented individuals play together as a team?

kitekrazy
12-05-2007, 11:19 AM
With all the pants pissing going on among the dark clouds, because they want to blame KW for a move that another team made, I'm posting some reasons why I'm choosing to remain optimistic about 2008.

If this is a one-man quest, so be it. But there's plenty of room on the bandwagon.

1. There are plenty of free agents out there who could improve the Sox;

2. There are plenty of possible trades to explore to improve the team;

3. Count on several Sox players to bounce back from a sub-par 2007 performances (PK, Contreras, Dye);

4. Count on several Sox players to build on promising rookie seasons (Fields, Danks, Richar, Floyd);

5. Several Tigers are among those suspected of being roiders and could be suspended 50 games; some Tigers are old and it's likely they could hit the wall this year;

6. The Twins are about to get weaker;

7. Let's face it, the Royals are the Royals;

8. Cleveland's young roster is due for a let-down after resting on their laurels after their deep 2007 ALCS run (and choke against the Red Sox);

9. There's plenty of time left in December for KW to make more deals;

10. January, February, March.

11. Most likely Jaun Uribe is not the Sox SS. Even better if they can get rid of him.

spiffie
12-05-2007, 11:19 AM
:KW
"Here it is, your Xmas present. I got you a pony named Quinten and an action figure named Cabrera who fills holes."

:fans
"But I wanted a super pony named Toriiii and the superduper Cabrera action figure. You suck!"

:KW
"Well, I still have some shopping to do, maybe I'll find a way to make you happy yet."

:fans
"WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!! You suck Kenny Claus.. suck suck suck... I want my super pony NOW! WAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!"
I just wish he would bring us the Bullpen Action Set that doesn't come with so many crappy broken pieces. And I wish he hadn't gone and given away our nice dependable #3 Starter with Kung Fu Grip and given us the Mystery Box to take its place

spiffie
12-05-2007, 11:20 AM
There's other things to consider like a team's health. Can a bunch of talented individuals play together as a team?
This is true. It is very possible that Miguel Cabrera might not like Ivan Rodriguez, and that might make him decide not to swing at breaking balls all year long.

wulfy
12-05-2007, 11:32 AM
Kenny will get it done, and I really don't think he leaves Nashville without a big acquisition.

Hope you're right, but I think he leaves Tennessee with a 4th outfielder, and little else.

RowanDye
12-05-2007, 11:43 AM
With the market being what it is now, I wonder what kind of deal Sabathia is going to be looking for considering his CYA, the number of hamburgers he eats, his age, etc.


Fixed it for you... :tongue:

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 12:30 PM
The best team "on paper" very rarely wins the WS. :o:

Except in 2004 and 2007 and all the Yankees teams that won championships in the late 90's

doublem23
12-05-2007, 12:39 PM
Except in 2004 and 2007 and all the Yankees teams that won championships in the late 90's

The Red Sox were not the best team in baseball in 2004.

wilburwood
12-05-2007, 01:42 PM
Baseball teams change rapidly as we witnessed after the 85 season. A couple players can go into a season long funk as we observed last year. I will be happy if they just get 9 guys who have average talent playing hard every day. If the chemistry is right good things are possible.
Last year when Boston won I was thinking to myself I would be humiliated if that bunch represented the South Side. As talented as they were they also appeared lazy, sloppy and had no respect for the game itself. So I guess in closing I do not get too awful upset when we do not land high priced ballplayers. Lets just wait and see what develops..........and be optimistic.
And hope win or lose that we field a team I would be proud to bring my grandkids to............because we will be there..

chisox77
12-05-2007, 01:42 PM
There's always hope. I'll be positive. Remember, Detroit is working hard to erase the memory of that beautiful World Series effort in 2006. And I know the Indians are telling their fans how proud they should be for going deep in the playoffs, in spite of being one win away from the Series (a choke perhaps?).

Maybe after all of this, it will be between the White Sox and the Twins. We'll have to wait and see . . .


:cool:

rdivaldi
12-05-2007, 02:16 PM
Sox drafts in the past 15 years have yielded very little.

That's ridiculous. We haven't been stellar but there have been some good major league ballplayers to come our of our system over the past 10 years.

Joe Crede, Chad Bradford, Kip Wells, Aaron Rowand, Gary Majewski, Josh Fogg, Mark Buehrle, Jon Rauch, Matt Guerrier, Chris Young, Jeremy Reed, Brandon McCarthy, Boone Logan and Josh Fields would take offense to that...

thomas35forever
12-05-2007, 02:17 PM
I couldn't believe how upset many users on here as well as those in the media are that Cabrera got away. I may have said this on here already, but I feel I should say it again. Getting a high-profile player does not always guarantee success. Not getting one does not guarantee failure. You need players to fill every hole on your roster that you have. You don't need a guy that's going to hit .350 as well as 45 homers and 140 RBIs. The 2005 Sox proved that. Who have we gotten so far this offseason? Cabrera, who will definitely be an upgrade over the piece of crap known as Uribe. Linebrink, who could've helped us win games last year that MacDougal and Thornton among others pissed away. I'm not sure what Quinton will do for us yet because the offseason isn't over. Patience, because we have every reason to believe that we won't go into ST without at least most of our holes addressed.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 02:27 PM
The Red Sox were not the best team in baseball in 2004.

A rotation that featured Pedro and Schilling? A bullpen helmed by Foulke? A lineup with the typically sick mashers they feature regularly?

I'm confused by what team looked so much better than them on paper...

Chicken Dinner
12-05-2007, 02:32 PM
A rotation that featured Pedro and Schilling? A bullpen helmed by Foulke? A lineup with the typically sick mashers they feature regularly?

I'm confused by what team looked so much better than them on paper...

That must be the reason that they were the "wild card" team that year and not even a divisional winner. By the way, the Cards had 105 wins that season.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 02:44 PM
That must be the reason that they were the "wild card" team that year and not even a divisional winner. By the way, the Cards had 105 wins that season.

We're not talking about who had the best record.

The allegation is "the best team on paper rarely wins the WS"

Imo, Boston had one of the best teams "on paper" in the 2004 season...which is pretty hard to dispute. Look at the names.

MisterB
12-05-2007, 03:03 PM
We're not talking about who had the best record.

The allegation is "the best team on paper rarely wins the WS"

Imo, Boston had one of the best teams "on paper" in the 2004 season...which is pretty hard to dispute. Look at the names.


Which names? Mark Bellhorn? Bill Meuller? Kevin Millar? Pokey Reese? That was their starting infield for opening day the majority of April and May. Doesn't exactly strike fear in my heart.

Lowe and Wakefield were both coming off mediocre seasons and were a collective 26-22 on the year.

The bullpen had Mike Timlin and Alan Embree who were those run of the mill "career middle relievers" that Tragg likes to complain about.

The '04 Red Sox had plenty of weaknesses...

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 03:04 PM
Which names? Mark Bellhorn? Bill Meuller? Kevin Millar? Pokey Reese? That was their starting infield for opening day the majority of April and May. Doesn't exactly strike fear in my heart.

How about Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz, Johnny Damon, and Jason Varitek

Let's not be obtuse... :rolleyes:

Chicken Dinner
12-05-2007, 03:17 PM
How about Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz, Johnny Damon, and Jason Varitek

Let's not be obtuse... :rolleyes:

They had those guys in 2003 also.

jsg-07
12-05-2007, 03:22 PM
Well... I did not have time to read this entire thread but I am glad it is here. As I posted in a few of the other threads (one of the "blow up the team" and "rowand is the worst CF'er in the league" threads) I will admit that I would have loved Miggy and it does suck that he went to a rival. However, how does this one move mean we are doomed??? If it does, then we had no chance from the start of the offseason.

There is still so much friggin time to make deals / signings and we have a few guys we can trade that can help out.

I wont go on about what I wrote in the others or just continue to say what others have said but my main point is this. Kenny Williams is not going to blow the team up this year. Just cannot see it happening. So we can sit around and ***** about it, or realize that whether we like it or not, and whether we are sucessful or not, we are still going to make some sort of a run at players to help this year and in future years.

I for one will still be excited to see what sort of team we put on the field, and I will go into opening day excited for the possiblity to start from scratch.

Call me a homer or a Kool-aid drinker or whatever.

Go Sox!:bandance:

spiffie
12-05-2007, 03:26 PM
Well... I did not have time to read this entire thread but I am glad it is here. As I posted in a few of the other threads (one of the "blow up the team" and "rowand is the worst CF'er in the league" threads) I will admit that I would have loved Miggy and it does suck that he went to a rival. However, how does this one move mean we are doomed??? If it does, then we had no chance from the start of the offseason.

There is still so much friggin time to make deals / signings and we have a few guys we can trade that can help out.

I wont go on about what I wrote in the others or just continue to say what others have said but my main point is this. Kenny Williams is not going to blow the team up this year. Just cannot see it happening. So we can sit around and ***** about it, or realize that whether we like it or not, and whether we are sucessful or not, we are still going to make some sort of a run at players to help this year and in future years.

I for one will still be excited to see what sort of team we put on the field, and I will go into opening day excited for the possiblity to start from scratch.

Call me a homer or a Kool-aid drinker or whatever.

Go Sox!:bandance:
http://themoderatevoice.com/wordpress-engine/files/2007-october/Kool_AidMan.jpg

Come on everybody, get excited for 2008!

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 03:47 PM
They had those guys in 2003 also.

Yeah and they were one game away from a world series they could have quite likely won

DickAllen72
12-05-2007, 04:49 PM
:threadrules:



Agreed!

I couldn't believe the morons on sports-blab radio today. People are blaming KW for the Angels blowing everyone else out of the water with their ridiculous contract for Hunter.

They're also blaming KW because the Marlins chose to accept Detroits superior package of six prospects plus their agreeing to take Willis over KW's great package of young talent.

People are already handing the Central Division to the Tigers despite their pitching problems and the fact that the first game is almost four months away.

jabrch
12-05-2007, 05:59 PM
I'm not sure what the o/u is for Tigers wins next year. I am guessing high 90s - and I'll go under... I think it is a pretty safe bet that they are going into the season VERY overrated.

santo=dorf
12-05-2007, 06:01 PM
With all the pants pissing going on among the dark clouds, because they want to blame KW for a move that another team made, I'm posting some reasons why I'm choosing to remain optimistic about 2008.

If this is a one-man quest, so be it. But there's plenty of room on the bandwagon.

1. There are plenty of free agents out there who could improve the Sox;

2. There are plenty of possible trades to explore to improve the team;

3. Count on several Sox players to bounce back from a sub-par 2007 performances (PK, Contreras, Dye);

4. Count on several Sox players to build on promising rookie seasons (Fields, Danks, Richar, Floyd);

5. Several Tigers are among those suspected of being roiders and could be suspended 50 games; some Tigers are old and it's likely they could hit the wall this year;

6. The Twins are about to get weaker;

7. Let's face it, the Royals are the Royals;

8. Cleveland's young roster is due for a let-down after resting on their laurels after their deep 2007 ALCS run (and choke against the Red Sox);

9. There's plenty of time left in December for KW to make more deals;

10. January, February, March.
1,2,3,4 (Floyd is not a rookie season and he sucked last year,) 9, 10 can be said for the rest of our competition.
5. We have some old guys and they seem to hit the wall last year.
6. We said that last year, and even if they are "about" to get weaker, they still finished 7 games behind them.
7. Agreed, but last year we moved closer to their league
8. Ok Hawk

"piss-pants" dark clouds are no better than blind, rose-colored wearing glasses fans who talked down to others.

:threadsucks

guillen4life13
12-05-2007, 06:17 PM
Going into the 2001 season (KW's first as a newly promoted GM) the White Sox and Cubs farm systems were rated 1-2 (Cubs were number 1). I remember this very distinctly, though I don't remember the source(s). Lots of the guys in the farm/prospects at that time were projected to be really damn good and others were going to be serviceable major leaguers. Joe Borchard, Jon Rauch, Dan Wright, Joe Crede, Aaron Rowand, Garland, Buehrle, Kip Wells, Josh Fogg, etc.

The 2001 team endured injuries to Baldwin, Eldred, Parque and David Wells (4/5 of the pitching rotation) and still managed to go 10 games over .500 riding the backs of Buehrle, Gary Glover, Sean Lowe, Kip Wells and Jon Garland when the aforementioned injured SP's were on the DL. All but Lowe were Sox farm products with little/no MLB experience prior to that season.

Some of those "can't miss" guys got injured and never got it back. Others got traded. Some helped the Sox win a WS.

So while many of those "can't miss" prospects missed for a variety of reasons (while other iffy prospects struck precious metals--Buehrle and Rowand exemplify this), they were highly regarded enough at that time. A highly regarded farm system = valuable trading commodities, not to mention the keeper players.

Frater Perdurabo
12-05-2007, 06:18 PM
1,2,3,4 (Floyd is not a rookie season and he sucked last year,) 9, 10 can be said for the rest of our competition.
5. We have some old guys and they seem to hit the wall last year.
6. We said that last year, and even if they are "about" to get weaker, they still finished 7 games behind them.
7. Agreed, but last year we moved closer to their league
8. Ok Hawk

"piss-pants" dark clouds are no better than blind, rose-colored wearing glasses fans who talked down to others.

:threadsucks

I'm not wearing rose colored glasses, but the pants-pissing dark clouds ARE wearing "carnage visors."

All I'm doing is taking a patient, wait and see approach. I'm withholding judgment until comprehension is complete. And I'm sure not soiling myself more than three months before the first game has even been played.

:kukoo:

tstrike2000
12-05-2007, 06:31 PM
1,2,3,4 (Floyd is not a rookie season and he sucked last year,) 9, 10 can be said for the rest of our competition.
5. We have some old guys and they seem to hit the wall last year.
6. We said that last year, and even if they are "about" to get weaker, they still finished 7 games behind them.
7. Agreed, but last year we moved closer to their league
8. Ok Hawk

"piss-pants" dark clouds are no better than blind, rose-colored wearing glasses fans who talked down to others.

You have it all figured out in December? Looking for optimism doesn't always mean someone is looking through "rose colored" glasses. All diehard Sox fans know KW has holes to fill amongst trying to be opimistic.

jsg-07
12-05-2007, 06:43 PM
1,2,3,4 (Floyd is not a rookie season and he sucked last year,) 9, 10 can be said for the rest of our competition.
5. We have some old guys and they seem to hit the wall last year.
6. We said that last year, and even if they are "about" to get weaker, they still finished 7 games behind them.
7. Agreed, but last year we moved closer to their league
8. Ok Hawk

"piss-pants" dark clouds are no better than blind, rose-colored wearing glasses fans who talked down to others.

:threadsucks


This has nothing to do with wearing rose colored glasses. It has to do with common sense.

What are the chances / odds we just stop now and the team we currently have??? 0%

What are the chances that Kenny makes some moves that we can all at least have a chance to look forward too?? Pretty good.

If this were the team we were going into ST with, I would be just as pissed and I will personally start these "dark cloud" threads.

Again, what will it hurt to give it a try and get some help in areas we need help with, play the first half of the season and see what happens. If we suck, then blow up the team. But why go into the season when you have guys like Burls, Javy, Dye, PK, AJ still able to produce?? Maybe their guidance can help out some of the young guys and we can meet in the middle. By getting guys that can help us now and later and keep it rolling. Why does it always have to be all or nothing?

santo=dorf
12-05-2007, 06:53 PM
I'm not wearing rose colored glasses, but the pants-pissing dark clouds ARE wearing "carnage visors."

All I'm doing is taking a patient, wait and see approach. I'm withholding judgment until comprehension is complete. And I'm sure not soiling myself more than three months before the first game has even been played.

:kukoo:
There is a small minority that is packing it in. There is a larger group that is upset that we are not acquiring our intended targets and our competition is getting much better. Please don't confuse the two and I won't mix the rose-colored glasses (also a small minority) to the "glass half-full" crowd. :wink:

jsg-07
12-05-2007, 07:08 PM
There is a small minority that is packing it in. There is a larger group that is upset that we are not acquiring our intended targets and our competition is getting much better. Please don't confuse the two and I won't mix the rose-colored glasses (also a small minority) to the "glass half-full" crowd. :wink:

Great post....

I think there are extremes at both ends and I think those who are upset and those who are as you call "glass half full" are people who have opinions that are closer than they think. I for one am very upset some of these deals did not go through. I just have a hard time thinking that becasue of two players our of the entire MLB are not coming to the sox, one of which did unfortunately go to a rival, that we should just pack it in and lay down.

Like saying... well...winning this season is going to be way to hard so lets go ahead and keep ticket and concession prices where they are, but we will just demolish the team and bring the payroll down to about 65 milliion and wait for Detroit and Cleveland to start sucking again in two years.

Who the hell knows...what if detroit and cleveland keep making deals to keep them competative for years... do we just sit and wait until other teams suck until we can try??? What about the twins in 2009 and 2010 when all the guys they may get from Santana start getting good??

areilly
12-05-2007, 07:19 PM
Once more:

To everyone who brings up the 2004-2005 offseason, you're conveniently forgetting a few things that were key to so much fan outrage at the time:
1) The Sox were already one, maybe two steps away from the playoffs
2) Neither Cleveland nor Detroit were a threat at the time
3) KW actually HAD a team, and dismantled it almost entirely

None of those are true anymore. Not a one. The Sox lost 90 games in 2007. You cannot draw similarities between this offseason and the one that built the World Series winner any more than you can draw similarities to winter 1977 or winter 1924.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 07:23 PM
I'm not wearing rose colored glasses, but the pants-pissing dark clouds ARE wearing "carnage visors."

All I'm doing is taking a patient, wait and see approach. I'm withholding judgment until comprehension is complete. And I'm sure not soiling myself more than three months before the first game has even been played.

:kukoo:

What good does expecting success in a year where we're completely overmatched do?

I'm sure not advocating "packing it in"...but "having a realistic set of goals and expectations for the 2008 season" isn't out of the question is it?

Frater Perdurabo
12-05-2007, 07:26 PM
There is a small minority that is packing it in. There is a larger group that is upset that we are not acquiring our intended targets and our competition is getting much better. Please don't confuse the two and I won't mix the rose-colored glasses (also a small minority) to the "glass half-full" crowd. :wink:

Fair enough and agreed.

The true pants pissers are a minority but they are a vocal minority.

I don't think anyone here is going "pollyana" though; I've not read anyone write that the Sox were a lock to contend.

I never thought Hunter was that great and although Cabrera would have been a great addition, I'm actually more concerned about finding a leadoff hitter and bolstering the bullpen and starting rotation. So no, I'm not that upset about losing out on Hunter and Cabrera.

Meanwhile, KW has filled one need (Linebrink) with more work to do in the pen and has gotten a promising young corner OF. In addition, Fukudome remains available as of this writing. Furthermore, there are still some decent leadoff hitters supposedly available in trade who happen to play for teams that might want something we have to offer.

So at present, KW has plenty of work to do but also has lots of time to be creative to fill those holes. All I'm saying is that we should give him that time.

If the roster is the same on March 31 as it is tonight, then I'll be among those chomping at the bit to take my pound of flesh.

JB98
12-05-2007, 07:40 PM
Fair enough and agreed.

The true pants pissers are a minority but they are a vocal minority.

I don't think anyone here is going "pollyana" though; I've not read anyone write that the Sox were a lock to contend.

I never thought Hunter was that great and although Cabrera would have been a great addition, I'm actually more concerned about finding a leadoff hitter and bolstering the bullpen and starting rotation. So no, I'm not that upset about losing out on Hunter and Cabrera.

Meanwhile, KW has filled one need (Linebrink) with more work to do in the pen and has gotten a promising young corner OF. In addition, Fukudome remains available as of this writing. Furthermore, there are still some decent leadoff hitters supposedly available in trade who happen to play for teams that might want something we have to offer.

So at present, KW has plenty of work to do but also has lots of time to be creative to fill those holes. All I'm saying is that we should give him that time.

If the roster is the same on March 31 as it is tonight, then I'll be among those chomping at the bit to take my pound of flesh.

I'm optimistic because Konerko is still a member of the Sox. :tongue:

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 07:42 PM
I'm optimistic because Konerko is still a member of the Sox. :tongue:

:o:

:(:

JB98
12-05-2007, 07:57 PM
:o:

:(:

You didn't get the joke, did you?

Frater Perdurabo
12-05-2007, 07:59 PM
I'm optimistic because Konerko is still a member of the Sox. :tongue:

Am I the official "one trick pony" (or horse's ass?) of WSI? :redface:

JB98
12-05-2007, 08:01 PM
Am I the official "one trick pony" (or horse's ass?) of WSI? :redface:

One trick pony? Perhaps. But there are several others who have you beat in the "horse's ass" department. Take a look at some of the threads over in WTS. :D:

santo=dorf
12-05-2007, 08:16 PM
Am I the official "one trick pony" (or horse's ass?) of WSI? :redface:
Well you did have a fascination with Carl Crawford for sometime. I don't see Nick@Nite/The Racehorse post here as much so I think you are the only one to go out of your way to make deep pink and teal posts in bold.

Vernam
12-05-2007, 08:19 PM
Dark Clouds?

I've been anything but a dark cloud in the past and I'm not being a dark cloud now to say the team is in bad shape relative to its divisional opponents.

You can delude yourself into thinking that we have comparable talent to Cleveland and Detroit, but that doesn't mean I'm playing some sort of Pascalian game to try to make myself happy. I was looking for the right post to respond to in this fairly long thread, and maybe this is it. First, thanks to Frater for creating a thread that non-Dark Clouds could feel safe in reading. After yesterday's news about M. Cabrera, I couldn't bring myself to wade through the anti-Kenny invective. The kookiest thing is the people (including P. Rogers) who say the Tigers own the Sox because of their relatively deep pockets. Last I saw, we are pretty much holding our own against them face-to-face. Is it our fault if other teams can't beat them? :wink: But seriously, there's an important variable: The Sox are in a two-team town, but the Tigers and Indians have their cities to themselves. I want the Sox to spend like a big market team, but only if it makes sense; I have no desire to see them do irresponsible things just to satisfy a vocal element of their fan base.

When people like Fquaye are waving red (NOT white) flags, it's not fair to accuse them of Dark Cloudism. Go back and read their posts from years gone by -- they're not pants pissers, not anything close. This morning, reading the Trib coverage, I have to admit feeling sort of like a sucker for having renewed my full-season tix. Christ, how come Detroit and Cleveland can field teams equivalent to the big markets, but we seem to be on an inexorable slide since 2005?

But that thinking only lasted until I could toss that crappy Trib rag in the trash. I'm ****ing looking forward to 2008. Do I think we're loaded? Not at all. It'd be silly to say so. But do I expect us to be overmatched going into the season? No way. I liked Corlose's comment about what Kenny was ready to offer Hunter. That's money we still have on the table. Yes, the free agent pool is thinning day by day, and our farm system is shackling KW's trade efforts. But we'll learn a lot about him and the organization in coming months. Opening Day is nowhere in sight. Today's roster is not the one we'll take into the season, that's for certain.

Cub fans have been knocked (and rightly so) for their blind faith. Sox fans have been knocked for being fickle. I think we can go a long way in the direction of having some faith in this organization before anyone could accuse us of being suckers. The Sox have turned a corner, not just in winning a championship, but in convincing people that it's damn fun going to the ballpark. Despite the miserable record in 2007, fans were fairly congenial all year, IMO. I don't think that makes them saps. It makes them fans of a team that has been consistently good for quite a while -- with one burst of greatness -- and will hopefully do its best to win again soon.

We've got one more run in 2008, which will either end in another significant playoff run or the dismantling of this team (or maybe both!). I'm in for the long haul, but I don't blame people who've earned their skepticism, because there have been plenty of disappointments dating to mid-2006. For the ones who are always mindlessly *****ing about KW's and JR's commitment, you keep posting and I'll keep ignoring your bull****.

Vernam

rdwj
12-05-2007, 08:41 PM
Does anyone else remember the off-season before the 2006 season? Most of us were ready to start printing repeat World Series tickets before the season even started. On paper, we looked unbeatable.

The Tigers look good now, but who knows how it will play out?

FarWestChicago
12-05-2007, 08:52 PM
There is a small minority that is packing it in.Dorf, this is pure bull****. In fact, calling this bull**** is an insult to bull****. So many PPDC's have already packed it for the next couple of years the only real question is should I close the baseball forums until 2010? There isn't much to talk about when you get down to it. And, let's face it, the Lot has always been a much superior forum. What purpose to the baseball forums serve until the Mighty Murder City Kitties are broken up? Can they Six-Peat? :dunno:

Brian26
12-05-2007, 08:52 PM
A rotation that featured Pedro and Schilling? A bullpen helmed by Foulke? A lineup with the typically sick mashers they feature regularly?

I'm confused by what team looked so much better than them on paper...

Quite honestly, the Cubs.

santo=dorf
12-05-2007, 09:02 PM
Dorf, this is pure bull****. In fact, calling this bull**** is an insult to bull****. So many PPDC's have already packed it for the next couple of years the only real question is should I close the baseball forums until 2010? There isn't much to talk about when you get down to it. And, let's face it, the Lot has always been a much superior forum. What purpose to the baseball forums serve until the Mighty Murder City Kitties are broken up? Can they Six-Peat? :dunno:
I've got getonbckthr, soxyesss, soxfest, and gogosox16. I mean, it looked like a lot yesterday, but it was really the same people saying it over and over over, and over......


I wish we still had the bar graphs for posts, but just click on the number of posts in the Cabrera trade thread, losing out on a player thread, and it's time to rebuild thread. The main culprits have about 20 posts each in each thread.

asindc
12-05-2007, 09:16 PM
I've got getonbckthr, soxyesss, soxfest, and gogosox16. I mean, it looked like a lot yesterday, but it was really the same people saying it over and over over, and over......


I wish we still had the bar graphs for posts, but just click on the number of posts in the Cabrera trade thread, losing out on a player thread, and it's time to rebuild thread. The main culprits have about 20 posts each in each thread.

What he said.

FarWestChicago
12-05-2007, 09:27 PM
I've got getonbckthr, soxyesss, soxfest, and gogosox16. I mean, it looked like a lot yesterday, but it was really the same people saying it over and over over, and over......Uh, champagne030, Lip... You need to look a bit harder. And what bar graphs of posts did we lose? I didn't remove anything that I remember. Of course, that doesn't mean I didn't; I am getting old. :smile:

santo=dorf
12-05-2007, 09:35 PM
Uh, champagne030, Lip... You need to look a bit harder. And what bar graphs of posts did we lose? I didn't remove anything that I remember. Of course, that doesn't mean I didn't; I am getting old. :smile:
When you clicked on the member name, there was an option of seeing a bar chart of posts. It would go up to 30 days IIRC.

Here's a post (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=231533&highlight=bar+chart#post231533) from awhile ago on it.

champagne030
12-05-2007, 09:36 PM
Uh, champagne030, Lip... You need to look a bit harder. And what bar graphs of posts did we lose? I didn't remove anything that I remember. Of course, that doesn't mean I didn't; I am getting old. :smile:

What the **** have you been smoking tonight? I haven't said **** about not acquiring Cabrera. I'm glad we didn't give up Fields, Gio, Danks, ect. We don't have enough pitching now and we're going to give up Gio and Danks without getting any in return? Don't throw me into a crowd *****ing we didn't get Hunter or Cabrera. :tsk:

*****ing that it looks like were counting on Floyd to be in our rotation, sure count me in that crowd. :D:

FarWestChicago
12-05-2007, 09:40 PM
When you clicked on the member name, there was an option of seeing a bar chart of posts. It would go up to 30 days IIRC.

Here's a post (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=231533&highlight=bar+chart#post231533) from awhile ago on it.Hmm, I must have screwed something up. Lemme see if I can fix that.

FarWestChicago
12-05-2007, 09:41 PM
What the **** have you been smoking tonight? I haven't said **** about not acquiring Cabrera. I'm glad we didn't give up Fields, Gio, Danks, ect. We don't have enough pitching now and we're going to give up Gio and Danks without getting any in return? Don't throw me into a crowd *****ing we didn't get Hunter or Cabrera. :tsk:

*****ing that it looks like were counting on Floyd to be in our rotation, sure count me in that crowd. :D:I have been very busy this week. I thought I saw you crying your eyes out in every PPDC thread. If I'm wrong, I apologize. I have only been skimming.

Jjav829
12-05-2007, 09:52 PM
Am I the official "one trick pony" (or horse's ass?) of WSI? :redface:

You've got a loooong way to go before you catch up to CLR in the "one trick pony" or "beating a dead horse" department. I think you'd have to make about 100 trade Konerko posts a day and have CLR not play the Rowand/Anderson shtick for a good year. :D:

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 10:18 PM
You didn't get the joke, did you?

I got it.

You may not know: Frater and I are partners in Konerko hate

JB98
12-05-2007, 10:24 PM
I got it.

You may not know: Frater and I are partners in Konerko hate

Yes, I know.

You and Frater feel free to start another thread encouraging KW to trade Konerko for Reggie Willits and Ervin Santana anytime. :D:

ChiSoxFan35
12-05-2007, 10:27 PM
I was about to get optimistic until I read the post. Why are our poor performances likely to improve, when good performances by Cle are not? Count on steroids (because we would be immune right) and hope that Minn is worse? (which I'm not too sure of, Sox killers still in lineup, replace Santana with Liriano and trade package, if it even happens), no matter what they're never an easy opponent

jabrch
12-05-2007, 10:34 PM
The Tigers look good now, but who knows how it will play out?

Just to be sure, but they still have to pitch 9 innings every day, right? I'm unimpressed with most of their rotation.

JB98
12-05-2007, 10:43 PM
I was about to get optimistic until I read the post. Why are our poor performances likely to improve, when good performances by Cle are not? Count on steroids (because we would be immune right) and hope that Minn is worse? (which I'm not too sure of, Sox killers still in lineup, replace Santana with Liriano and trade package, if it even happens), no matter what they're never an easy opponent

Konerko, AJ and Dye were all below career norms last year. We need bounce back performances from those three, and it is not unreasonable to think it will happen.

To me, that is the biggest reason for optimism. No way those three are all that bad again, especially Dye.

JB98
12-05-2007, 10:46 PM
Just to be sure, but they still have to pitch 9 innings every day, right? I'm unimpressed with most of their rotation.

The bullpen is a much bigger problem for Detroit. Verlander is excellent. Bonderman seems to hit a wall in the second half, but he's still a plus starter. Robertson is a pretty solid No. 5. The keys are Willis and Rogers. Is Rogers going to be healthy? Willis is coming off a bad year. I think the Tigers have the second-best rotation in the division behind Cleveland.

Detroit's bullpen? Yikes. With the addition of Linebrink, the Sox might actually be stronger in relief than the Tigers.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 10:49 PM
Yes, I know.

You and Frater feel free to start another thread encouraging KW to trade Konerko for Reggie Willits and Ervin Santana anytime. :D:


Like I said, I'd take a bucket of balls

JB98
12-05-2007, 10:52 PM
Like I said, I'd take a bucket of balls

Yep, that's fair market value.:cool:

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 11:00 PM
Yep, that's fair market value.:cool:

Like I care whether the Angels get ripped off or not!

RockyMtnSoxFan
12-06-2007, 09:52 AM
7. Let's face it, the Royals are the Royals;


Yes, but in 2007 the White Sox were almost the Royals, and the team hasn't changed that much.

Dan Mega
12-06-2007, 12:58 PM
There is a small minority that is packing it in. There is a larger group that is upset that we are not acquiring our intended targets and our competition is getting much better. Please don't confuse the two and I won't mix the rose-colored glasses (also a small minority) to the "glass half-full" crowd. :wink:

Unfortunetly, there is a small group that can't distinguish between the "packing it in/giving up all hope" and "glass half full/slightly disappointed" crowds. They think if someone isn't so sure that 2008 will be the sequel to 2005, they must be a dark cloud or something.

Fortunetly I think most of us in the middle live in reality and not off the deep ends on each side.

alohafri
12-06-2007, 03:04 PM
For as much *****ing and moaning I do, I actually wouldn't mind seeing a losing season if it meant seeing guys who could be a piece of the puzzle for the future. Gio? If we are ten games below .500 in July, I'd like to see him pitching every fifth day. If Ryan Sweeny is the guy they have been touting as, let's see him somewhere in the outfield if the season gets out of hand. I just don't want to hear this, "we are going to compete for the World Series this year." On paper, and yes, I know the games are played on the field, but on paper, it ain't happening. Leave that "It's gonna happen" crap for the North Side.

fquaye149
12-06-2007, 03:09 PM
For as much *****ing and moaning I do, I actually wouldn't mind seeing a losing season if it meant seeing guys who could be a piece of the puzzle for the future. Gio? If we are ten games below .500 in July, I'd like to see him pitching every fifth day. If Ryan Sweeny is the guy they have been touting as, let's see him somewhere in the outfield if the season gets out of hand. I just don't want to hear this, "we are going to compete for the World Series this year." On paper, and yes, I know the games are played on the field, but on paper, it ain't happening. Leave that "It's gonna happen" crap for the North Side.

Ditto!

asindc
12-06-2007, 03:11 PM
For as much *****ing and moaning I do, I actually wouldn't mind seeing a losing season if it meant seeing guys who could be a piece of the puzzle for the future. Gio? If we are ten games below .500 in July, I'd like to see him pitching every fifth day. If Ryan Sweeny is the guy they have been touting as, let's see him somewhere in the outfield if the season gets out of hand. I just don't want to hear this, "we are going to compete for the World Series this year." On paper, and yes, I know the games are played on the field, but on paper, it ain't happening. Leave that "It's gonna happen" crap for the North Side.

As long as you leave that "It ain't gonna happen" crap alone until Opening Day, fine by me.

Chicken Dinner
12-06-2007, 03:14 PM
Just be happy that there aren't 2 Cabreras on the team.......that would of really ****ed Ozzie up.:D:

TomBradley72
12-07-2007, 01:54 AM
That's ridiculous. We haven't been stellar but there have been some good major league ballplayers to come our of our system over the past 10 years.

Joe Crede, Chad Bradford, Kip Wells, Aaron Rowand, Gary Majewski, Josh Fogg, Mark Buehrle, Jon Rauch, Matt Guerrier, Chris Young, Jeremy Reed, Brandon McCarthy, Boone Logan and Josh Fields would take offense to that...

This list proves his point.

soxfan21
12-07-2007, 10:57 AM
I, along with many of you I am sure of, am getting tired of reading about all of the negative stuff that is happening with the sox lately, and am trying to point out the politive's so far for the '08 season. First off, I like Ozzie's approach on how he is going to be hard on these guys again and how he is going to get back to playing ozzie ball. I think that in a little bit of '06 and most of '07 we tried to rely too much on the home run, or the big hit and it never really happend for us.
Second, not every player (hopefully) is going to have as bad of a season as they did last year. It seemed like every big name player was in a slump for most of the season last year and no one really had an explanation for it, and I do not really know of one either. Most of these players will rebound and have at least average if not better than average season's this year.
Third, we have the best closer in the league. I do not really think that there is any dispute here because I believe that he is the best closer in the league as long as our defense does not choke on him.
There are a few more positives that I could point out but I want to hear some input from other members here.

chisoxmike
12-07-2007, 11:06 AM
Here's what I think...so far...about the 2008 season.

Already, we have a better infield with Orlando Cabrera at short and we've plugged a hole in left field with Quentin, who, by all accounts, is a front runner to become to get the LF job. Yes, we still need a center fielder and I would bet that we'll get one. I would be shocked if Jerry Owens is our starting center fielder next year.

Scott Linebrink may not blow you away, but he is certinally better than the garbage that was brought out of the clown car this year. They still need one more bullpen guy in my opinion, but work is being done.

The starting rotation is what worries me more than anything. When Williams said 29 other teams would love to have Gavin Floyd, I laughed my ass off. I think we still need another arm in the rotation. I really think the Sox are going to miss Garland. I can't believe the team is sold on Contreras coming back next year. I hope I'm wrong on that, but I can't see it.

Are the Sox better than they were just a few months ago. Sure they are. But not by much. In no way they can contend for the divison title with the current team. But that's why there is still the rest of December, January, February, and even March to work deals and sign a guy to fill the roster.

We'll see what happens. In the meantime, GO SOX!

julio-cruz
12-07-2007, 11:13 AM
Well, I can't see how the bullpen can be any worse then last year. Anything that could go wrong, did go wrong. According to Keith Law of ESPN, relievers rebound after one or two bad years. Hopefully Jenks stays solid, Thornton rebounds and Wasserman can deliver on the scale that he did last year. Who knows, maybe McDougal will figure out how to find the strike zone once again.:?:

FarWestChicago
12-08-2007, 09:32 AM
When you clicked on the member name, there was an option of seeing a bar chart of posts. It would go up to 30 days IIRC.

Here's a post (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=231533&highlight=bar+chart#post231533) from awhile ago on it.Dorf, I fixed it.

Jurr
12-08-2007, 09:50 AM
Here's what I think...so far...about the 2008 season.

Already, we have a better infield with Orlando Cabrera at short and we've plugged a hole in left field with Quentin, who, by all accounts, is a front runner to become to get the LF job. Yes, we still need a center fielder and I would bet that we'll get one. I would be shocked if Jerry Owens is our starting center fielder next year.

Scott Linebrink may not blow you away, but he is certinally better than the garbage that was brought out of the clown car this year. They still need one more bullpen guy in my opinion, but work is being done.

The starting rotation is what worries me more than anything. When Williams said 29 other teams would love to have Gavin Floyd, I laughed my ass off. I think we still need another arm in the rotation. I really think the Sox are going to miss Garland. I can't believe the team is sold on Contreras coming back next year. I hope I'm wrong on that, but I can't see it.

Are the Sox better than they were just a few months ago. Sure they are. But not by much. In no way they can contend for the divison title with the current team. But that's why there is still the rest of December, January, February, and even March to work deals and sign a guy to fill the roster.

We'll see what happens. In the meantime, GO SOX!
It's a total crapshoot. Good pitching seems to be as contagious as good hitting. Floyd and Danks could come out of nowhere and break out. Broadway might burst onto the scene and be a rookie of the year candidate. Who knows? Jose Contreras was as dominant as they come for the second half of '05 and the first half of '06. All of a sudden, it was gone. It works in the opposite direction, as well. I know enough about baseball to know that I can't predict how someone's going to perform from one season to the next.