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Rockabilly
12-04-2007, 10:06 PM
About being promised by KW that we would were going to sign Hunter and trade for Cabrera before he re-sign his deal...

Hopefully KW can get some top stars on this team but if Rowand goes to LA and Fukudome signs the Cubs. I wonder what Kenny will do to get us back in contention

source sun-times

soxfan43
12-04-2007, 10:08 PM
If Dye based his re-signing on Kenny's promise to sign guys 3 months before free agency started, then he's a complete moron.

JB98
12-04-2007, 10:09 PM
There's no evidence that Dye is mad, only that JD called to ask KW what happened.

Cowley's story contains no Dye quotes.

JRIG
12-04-2007, 10:09 PM
There's no evidence that Dye is mad, only that JD called to ask KW what happened.

Cowley's story contains no Dye quotes.

Indeed:


Less than a minute after listening to that message and doing his best to shake off the standing eight-count, Williams got a call from Sox outfielder Jermaine Dye asking what happened. Dye wasn't the only one asking that question as the Sox' offseason continued to go terribly wrong from what was hoped for.


Maybe Dye was just wondering wahat Plan 1F is...

Rockabilly
12-04-2007, 10:10 PM
There's no evidence that Dye is mad, only that JD called to ask KW what happened.

Cowley's story contains no Dye quotes.


yeah but I can only imagine what Dye said to KW

Martinigirl
12-04-2007, 10:10 PM
I find it hard to believe he would be mad. He might be disappointed, but how could he actually be pissed at KW when everyone agrees that the Angels completely over paid Hunter?

Tragg
12-04-2007, 10:12 PM
JD wasn't going to get a better deal than he got with the Sox, with his lousy '07 and declining defensive abilities.

TheCommander
12-04-2007, 10:13 PM
I find it hard to believe he would be mad. He might be disappointed, but how could he actually be pissed at KW when everyone agrees that the Angels completely over paid Hunter?

Exactly! The only thing KW could realistically promise is to go after those players. Obviously there was no guarantee he would land them.

JB98
12-04-2007, 10:14 PM
yeah but I can only imagine what Dye said to KW

You're imagining all right. That's why it's a leap to say JD is mad.

soxyess
12-04-2007, 10:14 PM
KW is slowly losing credibility not only in the league, but with his players. Think about it. Someone like JD takes a lesser contract to play for the sox based on someone he trusts(KW) reassuring him that he was going to rebuild his team with Hunter and Cabrera. Instead we will have the same garbage team as last year. Hello 70 wins!!

Rockabilly
12-04-2007, 10:16 PM
You're imagining all right. That's why it's a leap to say JD is mad.


your right i used a wrong choice of words

drewcifer
12-04-2007, 10:17 PM
KW is slowly losing credibility not only in the league, but with his players. Think about it. Someone like JD takes a lesser contract to play for the sox based on someone he trusts(KW) reassuring him that he was going to rebuild his team with Hunter and Cabrera. Instead we will have the same garbage team as last year. Hello 70 wins!!

Hello :dtroll:!!

Your act is getting old. You've made plenty of posts making your feelings clear about the Sox in '08 and KW's competency. We get it.

thegooch
12-04-2007, 10:18 PM
yeah but I can only imagine what Dye said to KW
Who Own the Chiefs? Call Detroit tell them bull****. Trade me right ****ing now.

Martinigirl
12-04-2007, 10:19 PM
KW is slowly losing credibility not only in the league, but with his players. Think about it. Someone like JD takes a lesser contract to play for the sox based on someone he trusts(KW) reassuring him that he was going to rebuild his team with Hunter and Cabrera. Instead we will have the same garbage team as last year. Hello 70 wins!!

You are right, he has no credibility at all. He didn't even attempt to go after the guys he talked to Dye and Mark about. He just sat at home, thinking about what to get his kids for Christmas.

Get a grip. He is trying to get the deals done, but the other teams either have more to offer for the players we want, or are offering insane amounts of money.

And for everyone who is so confident the Tigers are going to be the be all and end all, everyone thought that about the 2006 White Sox, and we all know how well that ended up.

JB98
12-04-2007, 10:19 PM
Man, I'm going to have get off this board for the rest of the night. I'm a frequent KW critic, but some of this **** is just getting out of hand.

ShoelessJoeS
12-04-2007, 10:19 PM
KW is slowly losing credibility not only in the league, but with his players. Think about it. Someone like JD takes a lesser contract to play for the sox based on someone he trusts(KW) reassuring him that he was going to rebuild his team with Hunter and Cabrera. Instead we will have the same garbage team as last year. Hello 70 wins!!Settle down there, Tiger. Maybe you should step away from your computer for a little while???

Bill Naharodny
12-04-2007, 10:36 PM
You are right, he has no credibility at all. He didn't even attempt to go after the guys he talked to Dye and Mark about. He just sat at home, thinking about what to get his kids for Christmas.

Get a grip. He is trying to get the deals done, but the other teams either have more to offer for the players we want, or are offering insane amounts of money.

And for everyone who is so confident the Tigers are going to be the be all and end all, everyone thought that about the 2006 White Sox, and we all know how well that ended up.

Martinigirl,

Good analogy about the 2006 Sox.

About Williams's effort. He's trying, but I think we need to look a little further.

Cabrera? Okay, the Sox organization is paying for years of poor scouting.

But Hunter? Regardless of what KW said to Dye, the point is not whether the money is "insane." The point is whether he's your top priority. If he is, you don't make him a competitive offer; you make him a stunner. In today's market, sad to say, 5 years/75 is not that offer. It's less than Soriano got. It might even be less than Vernon Wells re-signed for.

PLEASE NOTE: I'm not saying those guys were worth it or Hunter's "worth it" or that the Sox were cheap. I'm simply saying that you don't win these battles by being in the running. You win by winning -- and these days, that usually means going ABOVE what people received last year. That's what the Angels did. Seen in that context, there's nothing insane about it. They got their guy. Right now, we haven't.

soxyess
12-04-2007, 11:10 PM
Martinigirl,

Good analogy about the 2006 Sox.

About Williams's effort. He's trying, but I think we need to look a little further.

Cabrera? Okay, the Sox organization is paying for years of poor scouting.

But Hunter? Regardless of what KW said to Dye, the point is not whether the money is "insane." The point is whether he's your top priority. If he is, you don't make him a competitive offer; you make him a stunner. In today's market, sad to say, 5 years/75 is not that offer. It's less than Soriano got. It might even be less than Vernon Wells re-signed for.

PLEASE NOTE: I'm not saying those guys were worth it or Hunter's "worth it" or that the Sox were cheap. I'm simply saying that you don't win these battles by being in the running. You win by winning -- and these days, that usually means going ABOVE what people received last year. That's what the Angels did. Seen in that context, there's nothing insane about it. They got their guy. Right now, we haven't.

Outstanding point!! If you target a player as your top priority then you go get him. Even if you have to over pay. You made him a priority for a reason so you do what it takes to get him. If Hunter was KW's number one priority you go get him!!

Jerko
12-04-2007, 11:12 PM
http://pics.bikerag.com/Uploads/data/500/258Troll_spray.jpg

Brian26
12-04-2007, 11:18 PM
About being promised by KW that we would were going to sign Hunter and trade for Cabrera before he re-sign his deal...

Is it safe to assume that getting Miggy Cabrera was part of the plan that KW told Hunter? I wonder if KW thought he had a chance at Dontrelle too?

Tragg
12-04-2007, 11:19 PM
Think about it. Someone like JD takes a lesser contract to play for the sox
That he didn't do.
He was disappointed (and worried) that the Sox were shopping him instead of working with him on an extension. Williams gave him a very fair deal.

Mark Buehrle took a below market deal.

Bill Naharodny
12-04-2007, 11:19 PM
http://pics.bikerag.com/Uploads/data/500/258Troll_spray.jpg

I trust that you're not referring to me.

WhiteSox5187
12-04-2007, 11:21 PM
Martinigirl,

Good analogy about the 2006 Sox.

About Williams's effort. He's trying, but I think we need to look a little further.

Cabrera? Okay, the Sox organization is paying for years of poor scouting.

But Hunter? Regardless of what KW said to Dye, the point is not whether the money is "insane." The point is whether he's your top priority. If he is, you don't make him a competitive offer; you make him a stunner. In today's market, sad to say, 5 years/75 is not that offer. It's less than Soriano got. It might even be less than Vernon Wells re-signed for.

PLEASE NOTE: I'm not saying those guys were worth it or Hunter's "worth it" or that the Sox were cheap. I'm simply saying that you don't win these battles by being in the running. You win by winning -- and these days, that usually means going ABOVE what people received last year. That's what the Angels did. Seen in that context, there's nothing insane about it. They got their guy. Right now, we haven't.
Great point, but as has been mentioned i think Hunter was plan 1 and if he didn't like our offer, we'd take it to Rowand...and there was the Coco Crisp option which looks like it isn't there anymore...so now we're in a spot where we almost HAVE to get Rowand (or Jones) and we HAVE to wow them away. Overpaying be damned, other wise, a lot of guys who came back here expecting us to be able to compete for '08 might be awfully pissed.

Lukin13
12-04-2007, 11:34 PM
Overpaying be damned, other wise, a lot of guys who came back here expecting us to be able to compete for '08 might be awfully pissed.


Who came back?

All in teal:

Juany?? I did hear he told Kenny that if he planned on picking up his option that it better be to be a utility player; because if he planned on playing him at short in '08 we wouldn't be able to compete.

JD?? Don't let the door hit him in your streaky hitting, slow motion moving behind on the way out. The Royals would have loved to have him back for 2/25mil as opposed to the 3 year deal he got here. Honestly, if the Sox added Hunter and Miggy I wouldn't have been the least bit suprised to find JD facing lefties at DH and the occasional Ozzie Sunday spot start in RF or 1B.

AJ?? If he didn't smack his bat to the ground in disgust after a strikeout WS fans would be calling for Lo Duca this offseason.

MB?? Dude took 10 mill less to stay in Chicago because the Sox were more in a position to compete in '08 than the Red Sox, Cardinals or Mets?.... OR he took 10 mill less to get his $$$ 15 starts and 6 months in advance.

C'mon now.

soxwon
12-04-2007, 11:37 PM
I find it hard to believe he would be mad. He might be disappointed, but how could he actually be pissed at KW when everyone agrees that the Angels completely over paid Hunter?

JD makes enough money- to keep his mouth shut.

FireMariotti
12-04-2007, 11:37 PM
I'm sure Dye didn't call KW and give him an angry rant, that would just be stupid.

However, its not far-fetched to believe that Sox players are a little disappointed to see two marquee guys the team was pursuing sign with other clubs.


Hopefully KW can give us something to cheer about soon.

oeo
12-04-2007, 11:48 PM
Sounds like Cowley is acting like he knows something that he doesn't.

Joe Cowley is a ****ing moron, take whatever he says with a grain of salt.

WhiteSox5187
12-04-2007, 11:50 PM
Sounds like Cowley is acting like he knows something that he doesn't.

Joe Cowley is a ****ing moron, take whatever he says with a grain of salt.
:rolling:

PalehosePlanet
12-04-2007, 11:50 PM
Here's a thought: Maybe Dye heard the rampant rumors about The Sox making a big announcement and simply called Kenny to see what it was? Then Kenny simply tells him that it looked like we had a deal in place for Cabrera but at the last minute Detroit swooped in and got him.

Of course the media paints it as if JD called because he was pissed. *****, I highly doubt that's what happened.

drewcifer
12-04-2007, 11:51 PM
Hopefully KW can give us something to cheer about soon.

Don't give me that. That's Bull****. KW doesn't care. We're going to suck forever. He's screwing everyone over...one by one.

Soxyess!

Sockinchisox
12-04-2007, 11:59 PM
Levine said he (JD) called Kenny because he was mad, he said he (Levine) was sitting right next to Kenny.

(Insert any teal implied jokes here)

ShoelessJoeS
12-05-2007, 12:00 AM
I just so happened to be in the airport standing next to JD as he was talking to Kenny on his cell phone... you better believe he was pissed.

munchman33
12-05-2007, 12:21 AM
I just so happened to be in the airport standing next to JD as he was talking to Kenny on his cell phone... you better believe he was pissed.

He's serious. I heard Levine report that too.

soxfanreggie
12-05-2007, 12:31 AM
If he's upset about the Sox not making moves, maybe he could renegotiate his deal to free up some money to help make a splash sigining. I was against re-signing JD for the amount we did, but that's over and done with and not my decision. We don't have the prospects that other teams do to make huge deals. I don't think we have a prospect that I wouldn't trade. There are some that would take a lot to consider giving up, but I don't think we have a "you can't trade him" prospect. Hopefully we can make a few more moves and be in a better position, only time will tell.

peeonwrigley
12-05-2007, 12:45 AM
Ugh, just got back from a work dinner and saw this deal.

:(:

Back breaker. Tiggers have money to re-sign Miggy and Willis if they want, lots of old dudes roll off the books the next few seasons.

oeo
12-05-2007, 12:52 AM
Honestly, I like Dye, but he's a moron if he thought just because this is what Kenny wanted to do, it was going to happen. It's not like he didn't do his best to acquire either one of Hunter or Cabrera.

Not sure what's gotten into Dye, he's been coming off as a whiner lately. Remember at midseason when he wouldn't even talk to anyone in the clubhouse? If he's going to continue with the *****fits, send him out of town.

This is, of course, if all this is true about Dye calling up Kenny angry. And I honestly don't believe either one of Cowley or Levine.

ChiSoxFan35
12-05-2007, 01:05 AM
He's serious. I heard Levine report that too.

I am withholding judgment until OEO confirms

Domeshot17
12-05-2007, 01:09 AM
Honestly, I like Dye, but he's a moron if he thought just because this is what Kenny wanted to do, it was going to happen. It's not like he didn't do his best to acquire either one of Hunter or Cabrera.

Not sure what's gotten into Dye, he's been coming off as a whiner lately. Remember at midseason when he wouldn't even talk to anyone in the clubhouse? If he's going to continue with the *****fits, send him out of town.

This is, of course, if all this is true about Dye calling up Kenny angry. And I honestly don't believe either one of Cowley or Levine.

I think there is either a lot more to this story then we know, or a lot less. Maybe Dye called him up because he was surfin WSI, and saw conflicting reports, one we had Cabrera, one the Tigers did, and didnt know which to believe :redneck.

I also wonder if there is something with Torri we don't know. Maybe Hunter just did not believe he could win a world series here, but he did not give the Sox a chance to match the offer from my understanding.

I could see Kenny talking to Dye "It is going to get better, I won't let us have another year like this. We will go after guys like Hunter and Miguel Cabrera, we won't tolerate losing". That is the deal breaker for Dye to take a below market deal and come back on a 2 year offer. Now he is watching as everything is falling apart. He has seen 2 powerhouse AL teams get stronger.

I don't have a problem JD either way, especially not knowing the story. If he is pissed because he feels Kenny is not living up to his end of the deal, ok. This is the same guy who stayed with the Sox on a handshake deal even after he got more years and money offered to him after that handshake. He was upset last year because after being told they would not talk deals mid season, they locked up Buehrle, and he felt passed over, which you can understand.

But like I said, for all we know, he coulda called up Kenny laughing and been like "haha you suck way to swing and miss again haha" all joking. Im sure we will know sooner or later.

oeo
12-05-2007, 01:10 AM
I am withholding judgment until OEO confirms

Well come talk to me when you can trust either one of Cowley or Levine's word. These guys take **** on the fly and talk about it like it's fact all the time.

Levine says he was right next to him...well, that's his judgment of whether JD was angry or not. Maybe KW was ticked (actually, I'm sure he was ticked at the time) and was raising his voice, so Levine took that as JD being angry and they were fighting. Unless KW's phone was on speaker, Levine is using judgment and judgment alone.

ChiSoxFan35
12-05-2007, 01:14 AM
Well come talk to me when you can trust either one of Cowley or Levine's word. These guys take **** on the fly and talk about it like it's fact all the time.

I'm just playing, but it would seem like a weird thing to make up, and now that 2 are saying it, I believe. It could've been civil, but I could see JD calling and saying 'what's the deal?', I think a lot of people are saying the same thing, but I don't condone what Dye did. Let the guy work there, or at least wait til later on to talk, not right after all this is going down

oeo
12-05-2007, 01:16 AM
I'm just playing, but it would seem like a weird thing to make up, and now that 2 are saying it, I believe. It could've been civil, but I could see JD calling and saying 'what's the deal?', I think a lot of people are saying the same thing, but I don't condone what Dye did. Let the guy work there, or at least wait til later on to talk, not right after all this is going down

I added some to my post. Levine may have been next to him, but that doesn't mean he knows what they were talking about (or the tone).

And how does Cowley even know that Torii and Cabrera were 'promised?' Did Kenny just let him in on that little snippet, or what?

guillen4life13
12-05-2007, 01:19 AM
Honestly, I like Dye, but he's a moron if he thought just because this is what Kenny wanted to do, it was going to happen. It's not like he didn't do his best to acquire either one of Hunter or Cabrera.

Not sure what's gotten into Dye, he's been coming off as a whiner lately. Remember at midseason when he wouldn't even talk to anyone in the clubhouse? If he's going to continue with the *****fits, send him out of town.

This is, of course, if all this is true about Dye calling up Kenny angry. And I honestly don't believe either one of Cowley or Levine.

I don't trust either of them either. If I were a player in Dye's shoes I would be disappointed--perhaps frustrated, but not angry. I'd want to know what's going on--why our division rival just added a relatively young star left handed starting pitcher, and he's only the sub-headline to Cabrera without giving up anyone on the twenty five man roster. If KW didn't make any promises to anyone about anything, then I can't fault him here. The Marlins were actively seeking what the Tigers had. The Marlins, from what I've read, initiated the deal. The Tigers just got lucky with it but might pay in a few years. The Sox got blindsided and I don't see how KW could have prevented this from occurring.

If KW promised Miggy and/or Hunter, then Kenny's a little too shrewd for his own good, but Dye is also stupid for thinking these types of guarantees (from any GM) are not guarantees until it's done. Period. But I can't believe that either of them are that inept.

I still have faith in Kenny and I think he made some mistakes here and there over the last couple years. He did bring a World Series. He also got the Sox into the situation they're in now. I know the off-season isn't over yet, but the options are running out one by one. The rotation is full of question marks (only guarantee, more or less is Buehrle--it remains to be seen whether 2007 was Vazquez . The pen is too (though this is usually a more easily fixed issue). There are question marks in CF and LF. It makes me wonder if a single off season is enough time to get the team back on track. It could take some miracles, but miracles have happened before. Maybe it's time to see Kenny learn from some of the mistakes and rebuild the Sox into an even more dominant team than the '05-'06 teams.

kittle42
12-05-2007, 07:25 AM
But Hunter? Regardless of what KW said to Dye, the point is not whether the money is "insane." The point is whether he's your top priority. If he is, you don't make him a competitive offer; you make him a stunner. In today's market, sad to say, 5 years/75 is not that offer. It's less than Soriano got. It might even be less than Vernon Wells re-signed for.

PLEASE NOTE: I'm not saying those guys were worth it or Hunter's "worth it" or that the Sox were cheap. I'm simply saying that you don't win these battles by being in the running. You win by winning -- and these days, that usually means going ABOVE what people received last year. That's what the Angels did. Seen in that context, there's nothing insane about it. They got their guy. Right now, we haven't.

This is an excellent objective analysis of why the Sox continue to lose out on these high-proced talents. Sometimes, you have to be a little "fiscally irresponsible" to bring in the money down the line. 2005 was lightning in a bottle. You can't be successful hoping to catch that every year.

I'm not saying the Sox should start burning cash in public for the sake of burning cash. But it does seem that, despite their bluster, the Sox are more concerned with the bottom line than with winning. Yes, baseball is a business. But we're fans - we can hope that winning and responsibility are not mutually exclusive.

Frater Perdurabo
12-05-2007, 07:34 AM
This is an excellent objective analysis of why the Sox continue to lose out on these high-proced talents. Sometimes, you have to be a little "fiscally irresponsible" to bring in the money down the line. 2005 was lightning in a bottle. You can't be successful hoping to catch that every year.

I'm not saying the Sox should start burning cash in public for the sake of burning cash. But it does seem that, despite their bluster, the Sox are more concerned with the bottom line than with winning. Yes, baseball is a business. But we're fans - we can hope that winning and responsibility are not mutually exclusive.

Fair enough. Sometimes you need to overpay. But IMHO it was not worth it to overpay for Hunter. It's not worth it to overpay for Rowand. Neither of them are "centerpiece" players around whom a team should be built; Hunter is a secondary star and Rowand is a very nice complimentary player.

Carbrera is a player for whom it's worth it to overpay, but in this case the Sox didn't have a package that could compete with what the Tigers had to offer. What's KW supposed to do at that point, throw in Jenks?

KW already fired his minor league director in the hopes of improving his minor league system. There's nothing more he can do in December 2007 to stock the minor leagues with more and better prospects.

ilsox7
12-05-2007, 07:36 AM
This is an excellent objective analysis of why the Sox continue to lose out on these high-proced talents. Sometimes, you have to be a little "fiscally irresponsible" to bring in the money down the line. 2005 was lightning in a bottle. You can't be successful hoping to catch that every year.



I disagree that it was an excellent analysis b/c of how the situation with Hunter actually went down. The offer the Sox made was the best offer Toriiiiii had on the table and he was within days of accepting. Let's say that instead of 5/75, the Sox actually offered 5/90 or 5/100. Either one of those offers is ridiculously high, but it DOES blow the market away. So now Toriiiiii is sitting there with a huge offer from the Sox and is in the same position: within a few days of signing.

Along come the Angels, making essentially the same off that the Sox have now made to Toriiiiiiiiiii. He would sign there even if the Sox had the exact same offer on the table as the Angels. How do we know this? Well, Toriiiiii said so.

To conclude, the Sox were not getting Toriiiiii no matter what. They had the best offer on the table until the Angels came along. And even if you argue that they should have made an outrageous offer (5/90 or 5/100), he still would have rejected it.

cws05champ
12-05-2007, 08:19 AM
Well come talk to me when you can trust either one of Cowley or Levine's word. These guys take **** on the fly and talk about it like it's fact all the time.

Levine says he was right next to him...well, that's his judgment of whether JD was angry or not. Maybe KW was ticked (actually, I'm sure he was ticked at the time) and was raising his voice, so Levine took that as JD being angry and they were fighting. Unless KW's phone was on speaker, Levine is using judgment and judgment alone.

This would not be the first time the Chicago media has tried to start a controversy with the Sox and their own players when there is none. I'm tired of this garbage reporting!!! Don't beleive a word these guys say!

kraut83
12-05-2007, 08:22 AM
This would not be the first time the Chicago media has tried to start a controversy with the Sox and their own players when there is none. I'm tired of this garbage reporting!!! Don't beleive a word these guys say!

The next time Joe Cowley has something positive to say about the Sox will be the first.

Lip Man 1
12-05-2007, 01:36 PM
Or about WSI...or George...or yours truly.

Lip

duke of dorwood
12-05-2007, 02:45 PM
Hello, Ken?

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Ken its me, Jermaine?

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Detroit got Cabrera, Ken

zzzzzz What? Thats impossible, we just traded for him

Ken?

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Flight #24
12-05-2007, 02:48 PM
KW already fired his minor league director in the hopes of improving his minor league system. There's nothing more he can do in December 2007 to stock the minor leagues with more and better prospects.

I don't give Kenny a pass for being asleep while the farm tanked just because he finally noticed it. He's the GM. It's his responsibility. He failed at what is arguably the most important responsibility for a GM over the long term.

Now I'm cautiously optimistic that things are turning around a bit. Poreda looks good by all accounts, DLS, Fields. But based on what KW says, I have a sense that we'll be hearing a lot of "We have a top 10 pick, but we have to do what makes sense" and the ever-popular "50 cents" mantra. Which gives me little hope that the farm is going to actually improve much.

Paulwny
12-05-2007, 02:55 PM
Which gives me little hope that the farm is going to actually improve much.


The farm will improve next year after the sox fire sale.

oeo
12-05-2007, 03:08 PM
I don't give Kenny a pass for being asleep while the farm tanked just because he finally noticed it. He's the GM. It's his responsibility. He failed at what is arguably the most important responsibility for a GM over the long term.

Now I'm cautiously optimistic that things are turning around a bit. Poreda looks good by all accounts, DLS, Fields. But based on what KW says, I have a sense that we'll be hearing a lot of "We have a top 10 pick, but we have to do what makes sense" and the ever-popular "50 cents" mantra. Which gives me little hope that the farm is going to actually improve much.

Your obsession with that quote was old the second time you posted it. Are you just going to keep posting it?

Flight #24
12-05-2007, 03:13 PM
Your obsession with that quote was old the second time you posted it. Are you just going to keep posting it?

When it's relevant, yes. It boggles my mind that KW can repeat it with a $15-20M payroll increase in hand.

russ99
12-05-2007, 03:53 PM
I disagree that it was an excellent analysis b/c of how the situation with Hunter actually went down. The offer the Sox made was the best offer Toriiiiii had on the table and he was within days of accepting. Let's say that instead of 5/75, the Sox actually offered 5/90 or 5/100. Either one of those offers is ridiculously high, but it DOES blow the market away. So now Toriiiiii is sitting there with a huge offer from the Sox and is in the same position: within a few days of signing.

Along come the Angels, making essentially the same off that the Sox have now made to Toriiiiiiiiiii. He would sign there even if the Sox had the exact same offer on the table as the Angels. How do we know this? Well, Toriiiiii said so.

To conclude, the Sox were not getting Toriiiiii no matter what. They had the best offer on the table until the Angels came along. And even if you argue that they should have made an outrageous offer (5/90 or 5/100), he still would have rejected it.

I take some stock in Torii's comments that he didn't really want to sign with the Twins' big rival. It's free agency, a player signs where he wants. It just so happens the Angels made an insanely large offer to sway him there. Maybe Torii's misgivings in directly competing against the Twins delayed his decision until Thanksgiving, then the Angels swooped in. We'll probably never know.

I won't take Kenny to task for the Hunter signing or the Cabrera deals. At least he's trying his best to improve the team, which is all we can ask from a GM.

I don't know what Dye's issue is, he signed the contract. If he doesn't like it I'm sure Kenny will find some trading partners.

oeo
12-05-2007, 03:54 PM
When it's relevant, yes. It boggles my mind that KW can repeat it with a $15-20M payroll increase in hand.

I don't think it's been relevant to the conversation once. If you're trying to prove you can read, then you're doing a good job...but that's about it.

WhiteSox5187
12-05-2007, 04:01 PM
Fair enough. Sometimes you need to overpay. But IMHO it was not worth it to overpay for Hunter. It's not worth it to overpay for Rowand. Neither of them are "centerpiece" players around whom a team should be built; Hunter is a secondary star and Rowand is a very nice complimentary player.

Carbrera is a player for whom it's worth it to overpay, but in this case the Sox didn't have a package that could compete with what the Tigers had to offer. What's KW supposed to do at that point, throw in Jenks?

KW already fired his minor league director in the hopes of improving his minor league system. There's nothing more he can do in December 2007 to stock the minor leagues with more and better prospects.
With the way the market is going, it could very well be that the price for Hunter and the price that Rowand is asking for IS in fact the market price, not overpaying for someone.

Law11
12-05-2007, 05:52 PM
KW cant even dump Uribe on someone thats how bad these meeting have gone..

Holes in the OF, Bullpen, rotation, 2 SS... and no leadoff guy.

What did KW actually accomplish at the meetings....
I realize his 2 big moves blew up in his face but you have to have a backup plan and he doesnt seem to have one.

I havent heard the Sox come up in any trade talk anywhere on any site in recent hours..

Merry Christmas... You'll get nothing and like it...

Lip Man 1
12-05-2007, 05:53 PM
Actually that's the second time Kenny has used a variation of that quote. At the press conference announcing him as the new G.M. he raised eyebrows with some Sox fans with this statement: "I can't ask the owner to spend a dollar if he only has fifty cents..."

Just FYI.

Lip

AZChiSoxFan
12-05-2007, 05:54 PM
I don't give Kenny a pass for being asleep while the farm tanked just because he finally noticed it. He's the GM. It's his responsibility. He failed at what is arguably the most important responsibility for a GM over the long term.

Now I'm cautiously optimistic that things are turning around a bit. Poreda looks good by all accounts, DLS, Fields. But based on what KW says, I have a sense that we'll be hearing a lot of "We have a top 10 pick, but we have to do what makes sense" and the ever-popular "50 cents" mantra. Which gives me little hope that the farm is going to actually improve much.

Bingo!!!

AZChiSoxFan
12-05-2007, 05:56 PM
KW cant even dump Uribe on someone thats how bad these meeting have gone..

Holes in the OF, Bullpen, rotation, 2 SS... and no leadoff guy.

What did KW actually accomplish at the meetings....
I realize his 2 big moves blew up in his face but you have to have a backup plan and he doesnt seem to have one.

I havent heard the Sox come up in any trade talk anywhere on any site in recent hours..

Merry Christmas... You'll get nothing and like it...

Correct.

Now we move on to plan 1Y. I believe that will include Roberto AND Sandy Alomar, along with Carl Everett. Wait a minute, scratch that. I just heard that Sandy wants $17,000 to play next season, but the owner only has $16,500 to spend.

Nellie_Fox
12-06-2007, 01:18 AM
I havent heard the Sox come up in any trade talk anywhere on any site in recent hours..

Merry Christmas... You'll get nothing and like it...We heard that the Sox just about had Hunter locked up. We heard nothing about the Angels until the deal was announced.

We heard that the Sox were just about to complete a trade for Cabrera. We heard nothing about Detroit until the trade was made.

Maybe not hearing anything about the Sox is a good thing.

Navarro's Talent
12-06-2007, 06:06 AM
We heard that the Sox just about had Hunter locked up. We heard nothing about the Angels until the deal was announced.

We heard that the Sox were just about to complete a trade for Cabrera. We heard nothing about Detroit until the trade was made.

Maybe not hearing anything about the Sox is a good thing.

When KW was on Comcast last night, he mentioned trying to go under the radar again because that's when he has the most success. To be honest, I'm surprised he didn't try to go under the radar with Hunter. After losing out on Omar Vizquel a few years back, I figured everything would be more inconspicuous.

Frater Perdurabo
12-06-2007, 07:09 AM
Maybe not hearing anything about the Sox is a good thing.

Amen.

The problem is that some fans are just so starved for a huge signing that if KW traded McCullough for Pujols, they would say we overpaid. Then others would be pissed because the Sox just killed PK's trade value with another 1B on the team. Then others would be pissed because PK was about to be dealt.

Frater Perdurabo
12-06-2007, 07:28 AM
The "big plan" that KW said he was pursuing when he signed Buehrle last July almost certainly included Ichiro. Lip's sources said KW was planning to make a move for him, but the Mariners re-signed him because Ichiro took a "hometown discount" to stay.

That tells me that in addition to augmenting the bullpen (which he's already partially solved with Linebrink), the plan all along almost certainly has been to bolster the top and bottom of the order. He's already started that by getting Cabrera for the 2-hole. He's also added a young, high-OBP corner outfielder who likely will bat at the bottom of the lineup next year.

Look at the big picture. If the plan was to improve the top and bottom of the order, not signing Hunter was a good thing! Hunter is an RBI producer, not an OBP guy! Cabrera's OBP would have been nice in the 3-hole, but the Sox just didn't have as much to give away that the Marlins wanted. So it's probably a good thing the Sox didn't make a deal for Cabrera, either!

There are still leadoff hitters out there that probably are available in trade. There's still plenty of time to find a leadoff hitter, and the Sox still have Uribe and Crede to deal, and conceivably could deal from other areas of strength (power hitting) to acquire leadoff help.

Noneck
12-06-2007, 07:49 AM
and conceivably could deal from other areas of strength (power hitting) to acquire leadoff help.

I'm curious, Who are these players? Dye, Konerko, Fields? 3 players constitute an area of strength?

nccwsfan
12-06-2007, 08:23 AM
Amen.

The problem is that some fans are just so starved for a huge signing that if KW traded McCullough for Pujols, they would say we overpaid. Then others would be pissed because the Sox just killed PK's trade value with another 1B on the team. Then others would be pissed because PK was about to be dealt.

The sad reality is that there will never ever be another trade or transaction that will be embraced 100% by White Sox fans, or any other team's fans for that matter. The mindset of the sports fan has changed...

slavko
12-06-2007, 11:15 AM
If Dye based his re-signing on Kenny's promise to sign guys 3 months before free agency started, then he's a complete moron.

This gets me back to where I was 3 months ago: Why did we resign a guy on the downhill side anyway? Other than the fact that we owed him big for what he gave us working for relatively small money, and his turning down a bigger last minute offer when he signed in the first place because he had given KW his word. So we did it for loyalty. Should we have been cold and heartless in the matter? What would another team have done?

The cold and heartless side of me says to trade him now if he's that peeved off. Does he have a no-trade?

kittle42
12-06-2007, 11:39 AM
Look at the big picture.

I am. In the big picture, we finish behind at least the Tigers and Indians.

kitekrazy
12-06-2007, 11:40 AM
If Dye based his re-signing on Kenny's promise to sign guys 3 months before free agency started, then he's a complete moron.

This type of stuff is always funny. Dye resigned because he liked the contract offer. It's a business to the players.