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getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 06:24 PM
Start unloading guys like Paulie, Thome, Dye, Vazquez and who ever you can in order to rebuild and plan for 2010-2011. We do not have a team that can compete with Anaheim, Detroit, Cleveland, Boston, and the Yankees. Those 5 are the 4 spots in the playoffs for the next 2-3 years. It sucks I hate to see it but I just can't picture any combination of trades and signings that will catapult us into a contending team.

drewcifer
12-04-2007, 06:26 PM
Start unloading guys like Paulie, Thome, Dye, Vazquez and who ever you can in order to rebuild and plan for 2010-2011. We do not have a team that can compete with Anaheim, Detroit, Cleveland, Boston, and the Yankees. Those 5 are the 4 spots in the playoffs for the next 2-3 years. It sucks I hate to see it but I just can't picture any combination of trades and signings that will catapult us into a contending team.

The only one in that list you could "unload" is Paulie. Dye hasn't even played a game since an extension, and Thome has just 1 year left for basically an AL only suitor.

The situation is what it is.

And trading Vazquez now... that's ridiculous.

oeo
12-04-2007, 06:28 PM
The only one in that list you could "unload" is Paulie. Dye hasn't even played a game since an extension, and Thome has just 1 year left for basically an AL only suitor.

I don't necessarily entirely agree with this thread, but I think Dye would be very easy to 'unload.' Look at the money the Royals are giving Jose Guillen. Dye is a bargain.

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 06:28 PM
The only one in that list you could "unload" is Paulie. Dye hasn't even played a game since an extension, and Thome has just 1 year left for basically an AL only suitor.

The situation is what it is.

And trading Vazquez now... that's ridiculous.
What is the point of keeping them? Can you honestly see anything that will help this team compete in 08 or 09? Why waste time? Great we might win 90 games yet we lose the division by 20 games because Detroit has gone all video game on our asses.

SoxSpeed22
12-04-2007, 06:28 PM
http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/mba/lowres/mban925l.jpg

chisoxmike
12-04-2007, 06:28 PM
:pudge
"Hey Sox fans, stay in the game with Just For Men."

DumpJerry
12-04-2007, 06:28 PM
Start unloading guys like Paulie, Thome, Dye, Vazquez and who ever you can in order to rebuild and plan for 2010-2011. We do not have a team that can compete with Anaheim, Detroit, Cleveland, Boston, and the Yankees. Those 5 are the 4 spots in the playoffs for the next 2-3 years. It sucks I hate to see it but I just can't picture any combination of trades and signings that will catapult us into a contending team.
I remember reading a bunch of postings like this one on WSI. Full of doom and gloom and pessimism. People wanting to jump off bridges, etc.

When were those posts?

2004-2005 offseason.

Relax. The Tigers gave away the store today. We didn't, thank goodness.

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 06:30 PM
I remember reading a bunch of postings like this one on WSI. Full of doom and gloom and pessimism. People wanting to jump off bridges, etc.

When were those posts?

2004-2005 offseason.

Relax. The Tigers gave away the store today. We didn't, thank goodness.
They did give up a ton and they will dominate the division for a couple years. Thats why we got get youth now. Let them develope. Then when Detroit has an aged roster (Besides Miggy and Dtrain :angry:) we can then take it over.

sullythered
12-04-2007, 06:32 PM
:darkclouds:

Meh. Who knows. Baseball is a crazy game. I thought we were gonna be middle of the pack before '05, and so did most everybody else. Paulie, Dye, and Thome have the years they are capable of, Feilds hits his potential, and the kiddos pitch pretty good, anything can happen. Plus, we aren't done, and there are some pretty good players out there.

Hey didn't the Tigers get worse last year after they got a big name (Sheffield)? Didn't the Yankees STOP losing titles as soon as they started going after the big name guys? A few smart (seemingly small) moves are better than the proverbial "big splash."

drewcifer
12-04-2007, 06:33 PM
I remember reading a bunch of postings like this one on WSI. Full of doom and gloom and pessimism. People wanting to jump off bridges, etc.

When were those posts?

2004-2005 offseason.

Relax. The Tigers gave away the store today. We didn't, thank goodness.

Ah, a voice of reason.

I don't necessarily entirely agree with this thread, but I think Dye would be very easy to 'unload.' Look at the money the Royals are giving Jose Guillen. Dye is a bargain.

06' Dye at his price, yes. He's what though... 33? And do you think Jose Guillen (+ baggage) = JD?

What do you envision Dye fetching? And keep in mind - This would be a trade from a team that JUST extended him, but now wants to trade him...

ChiSoxIn06
12-04-2007, 06:36 PM
ok why does everyone respond to dark clouds with the 2005 season? that was one season guys ( a good one but only one). are the rest of the seasons on record completely obsolete? face it guys this season is one that should be used to rebuild...blow it up and give it a fresh go kenny.

hi im skot
12-04-2007, 06:38 PM
I admire how you're not panicking after the Detroit/Florida trade.

AJ Hellraiser
12-04-2007, 06:38 PM
I agree completely with the person that created this thread.... We can't compete with the Tigers or Indians at this point.... Barring a trade nobody expects, no player on the free agent market will change that....

Unless KW stockpiles the farm with blue chip prospects, I can't see the Sox making the playoffs for a decade at this point...

In my life, I never remember being more disappointed with the direction of the team and I finally am questioning KW...

We have ZERO farm system to trade from, we're old, we have money that players don't seem to want... this is a mess!

:angry::angry::angry::angry::whiner::whiner::whine r::whiner:

russ99
12-04-2007, 06:40 PM
ok why does everyone respond to dark clouds with the 2005 season? that was one season guys ( a good one but only one). are the rest of the seasons on record completely obsolete? face it guys this season is one that should be used to rebuild...blow it up and give it a fresh go kenny.

I agree with one point. If the Sox have a similarly crappy season in 08 as last year, they probably will blow up the team.

But I think it's worth a shot to add some decent players and give the core of 2005 one last chance to make some noise.

DumpJerry
12-04-2007, 06:40 PM
They did give up a ton and they will dominate the division for a couple years. Thats why we got get youth now. Let them develope. Then when Detroit has an aged roster (Besides Miggy and Dtrain :angry:) we can then take it over.

They are not assured of domination. Baseball is not played with big names, it is played with team chemistry and a good Manager. I feel Leyland is overrated.


Meh. Who knows. Baseball is a crazy game. I thought we were gonna be middle of the pack before '05, and so did most everybody else. Paulie, Dye, and Thome have the years they are capable of, Feilds hits his potential, and the kiddos pitch pretty good, anything can happen. Plus, we aren't done, and there are some pretty good players out there.

Hey didn't the Tigers get worse last year after they got a big name (Sheffield)? Didn't the Yankees STOP losing titles as soon as they started going after the big name guys? A few smart (seemingly small) moves are better than the proverbial "big splash."
Quite true. Kenny built the '05 team, one of the greatest since the '27 Yanks, not with big name players, but players who filled specific roles. Pods was not brought here to be a stud LFer (he isn't), but to run, run, run on the bases, el Duque was not a real big name anymore when he came here and was 9-9 in the regular season because of his injuries which were known before we got him. El Duque was brought here in case we faced a playoff situation where the other team had the bases were loaded with no outs and the Sox holding onto a one-run lead.

It's not the big names that make it happen, *cough* ARod *cough* it's the difference functions people fulfill on the team that makes October happen.

I feel we do have many of those role players, we just have a few holes left to fill. Let the Indians and Tigers look at the games with each other on the schedule, by the time they realize we're not the '07 Fluke White Sox, it'll be too late.

Sockinchisox
12-04-2007, 06:41 PM
:pudge
"Hey Sox fans, stay in the game with Just For Men."

:rolling::rolling::rolling:

I needed that, thanks.

sullythered
12-04-2007, 06:41 PM
I can't see the Sox making the playoffs for a decade at this point...


:rolleyes:

santo=dorf
12-04-2007, 06:41 PM
What is the point of keeping them? Can you honestly see anything that will help this team compete in 08 or 09? Why waste time? Great we might win 90 games yet we lose the division by 20 games because Detroit has gone all video game on our asses.
Who the hell is going to pay to see young garbage on the field? In case you didn't notice, our farm system doesn't have much to offer, and Williams hasn't been the best when dumping proven major leaguers for minor leaguers. He's much better at selling and hyping the younger talent.

I'm pissed off too, but give it some time. We still have some chips to play with, but we can remain competitive.

ChiSoxIn06
12-04-2007, 06:42 PM
I agree with one point. If the Sox have a similarly crappy season in 08 as last year, they probably will blow up the team.

But I think it's worth a shot to add some decent players and give the core of 2005 one last chance to make some noise.

but most of the core is already gone...pods, gooch, rowand, garland, garcia, cotts are all gone....blow it up

angiew
12-04-2007, 06:43 PM
Didn't the Yankees STOP losing titles as soon as they started going after the big name guys?

There it is. The Yankees have thrown more money than God has at players and they can't win ****. I'm not going to say "we're done" before we ever even get started.

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 06:43 PM
:darkclouds:

Meh. Who knows. Baseball is a crazy game. I thought we were gonna be middle of the pack before '05, and so did most everybody else. Paulie, Dye, and Thome have the years they are capable of, Feilds hits his potential, and the kiddos pitch pretty good, anything can happen. Plus, we aren't done, and there are some pretty good players out there.

Hey didn't the Tigers get worse last year after they got a big name (Sheffield)? Didn't the Yankees STOP losing titles as soon as they started going after the big name guys? A few smart (seemingly small) moves are better than the proverbial "big splash."
I'm not dark clouding at all. I just see Detroit and realize they are far far superior to evryone else in the division. Signings or trades to get better could get us to 90-92 wins but even that won't be enough. We might as well accept the fact 08-09 belong to Detroit. Lets set ourselves up for a dynasty that starts making its mark in 2010. Similar to how Cleveland has done it. Get youth, identify the core sign them long term before they explode.

oeo
12-04-2007, 06:43 PM
I remember reading a bunch of postings like this one on WSI. Full of doom and gloom and pessimism. People wanting to jump off bridges, etc.

When were those posts?

2004-2005 offseason.

Relax. The Tigers gave away the store today. We didn't, thank goodness.

2005 also didn't have competition like the Angels, Tigers, and Red Sox. You're dreaming if you think we can repeat 2005 in 2008.

santo=dorf
12-04-2007, 06:44 PM
I actually recall this time in 2004 being more lively because payroll was actually going up, and we were actually signing free agents.

Remember the "Iguchi-Sox love connection Monster Thread?" Good times. :cool:

the1tab
12-04-2007, 06:45 PM
I thought Kenny was stockpiling for the future by acquiring Gavin Floyd last year...

For everyone that thinks trading Vazquez is crazy... he's the most marketable pitcher we have other than Jenks.

Right now, Kenny has thrown so much at the wall and had nothing stick, he needs ANYTHING to sell to the fans. Trading Paulie and/or Buehrle would be a bigger trainwreck than we already have. Javy isn't a homer so trading him for value wouldn't devestate the average fan.

I'm penciling 2008 out of my baseball calendar... with room for change, but hope fading quickly.

:gulp:

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 06:45 PM
Who the hell is going to pay to see young garbage on the field? In case you didn't notice, our farm system doesn't have much to offer, and Williams hasn't been the best when dumping proven major leaguers for minor leaguers. He's much better at selling and hyping the younger talent.

I'm pissed off too, but give it some time. We still have some chips to play with, but we can remain competitive.
Great we make money and maybe win 90 games yet detroit wins the division by 10 games and we can't make the wild card either. If fans can't accept the fact we are in a tough spot and they stop supporting the team then those fans can go **** themselves.

DumpJerry
12-04-2007, 06:48 PM
2005 also didn't have competition like the Angels, Tigers, and Red Sox. You're dreaming if you think we can repeat 2005 in 2008.
The 2005 White Sox did something only one other team ('27 Yanks) accomplished: Wire-to-wire in 1st place and sweeping the WS. I don't expect another team to do that for a long time. The AL was not a bunch of weak teams and one strong White Sox team in 2005.

Do I think the White Sox can make the playoffs in '08? Of course I do. They are tied for First right now and the games have to be played. How many times have we seen "can't miss" teams come out of Spring Training and fail by May 15th? Quite a few.

fquaye149
12-04-2007, 06:48 PM
I remember reading a bunch of postings like this one on WSI. Full of doom and gloom and pessimism. People wanting to jump off bridges, etc.

When were those posts?

2004-2005 offseason.

Relax. The Tigers gave away the store today. We didn't, thank goodness.

Yeah. Thank goodness we don't have a stacked lineup along with a rotation of Verlander, Bonderman, Robertson, Rogers and Dontrelle Wills, and thank goodness that in order to get that stacked lineup with a sick rotation (and pretty good bullpen) we only had to give up players that wouldn't have made the roster anyway, top prospects or not

sullythered
12-04-2007, 06:48 PM
I'm not dark clouding at all. I just see Detroit and realize they are far far superior to evryone else in the division. Signings or trades to get better could get us to 90-92 wins but even that won't be enough. We might as well accept the fact 08-09 belong to Detroit. Lets set ourselves up for a dynasty that starts making its mark in 2010. Similar to how Cleveland has done it. Get youth, identify the core sign them long term before they explode.
But this isn't the NBA. Putting the most big number all-stars on the field doesn't guarantee jack. In baseball, you could literally field and all-star team that loses a division race to a bunch of relative unknowns. Conceding to the freakin' Tigers at this point is crazy. Particularly because we had a bunch of guys happen to have career worst type years at once last year.

Maybe it's not dark-clouding, but it's definitely close to sky is falling-ing. Hee hee.

Dub25
12-04-2007, 06:48 PM
2005 also didn't have competition like the Angels, Tigers, and Red Sox. You're dreaming if you think we can repeat 2005 in 2008.

Didn"t the Red Sox win the series in 04?

SoxGirl4Life
12-04-2007, 06:50 PM
If fans can't accept the fact we are in a tough spot and they stop supporting the team then those fans can go **** themselves.

:Rocker:

santo=dorf
12-04-2007, 06:51 PM
Didn"t the Red Sox win the series in 04?
That 2004 Red Sox team lost Pedro, Derek Lowe (WS hero,) and Keith Foulke (injury.) This reigning championship Boston team is close to adding Johan Santana. HUGE difference.

JB98
12-04-2007, 06:51 PM
If we're out of the race in July, it will be time to entertain trading the veteran core.

That time is not now.

DumpJerry
12-04-2007, 06:54 PM
I actually recall this time in 2004 being more lively because payroll was actually going up, and we were actually signing free agents.

Remember the "Iguchi-Sox love connection Monster Thread?" Good times. :cool:
This time in 2004 was slow. Iguchi did not sign until Jan. 27, 2005, IIRC, the C.Lee/Pods deal went down after the Winter Meetings, el Duque was signed after the Winter Meetings, AJ was signed after the Winter Meetings.

jsg-07
12-04-2007, 07:02 PM
While I would not have minded Cabrera at all... I am actually shocked that there is so much doom and gloom on this site because of this. Yes I hate to see him go to the tigers but he is ONE PLAYER!! (I cant see myself being scarred of willis who had a 5+ ERA in he national league last year). Who knows, maybe Sheffield and Maggs get old next year and play like some of our guys did this year. Or, better yet, maybe guys like Dye, Paulie, etc., have healthy guys around them and they dont struggle as much this year.

In my opinion, anyone who thinks the season is over now and we have no shot, should have thought this same way 3 hours ago. If we can somehow get a decent CF'er we are not in bad shape. We still have tradeable guys to fill some bullpen holes and who knows, maybe we can pull of a blockbuster for a decent pitcher. Maybe Fields and Richar show some speed and get even better this year.


there are still two more days to go and I refuse to give up yet. Call me a homer or whatever, but this one trade (while I admit, i hate to see him go to detroit) is not the end of the world.

Huisj
12-04-2007, 07:07 PM
Don't put the Tigers in the world series for the next x number of years just yet. What about their pitching? So far this offseason, they've traded two promising up-and-coming starters (Miller and Jurjens), lost a young power reliever for at least half the season (Zumaya, and who knows if he'll ever be fully healthy again), and brought back their aging and somewhat shaky closer (Jones).

Ok, so what's their rotation?
Verlander is very good.
Willis could be anywhere from great to just mediocre.
Bonderman can be decent, but he finished horrible last year, and he always seems to be on the verge of these weird mystery injuries.
Robertson is ok sometimes and sort of lousy other times.
Rogers is as old dirt, and he missed a lot of last year.

Bullpen?
Jones is old and shaky.
Rodney can be ok but very wild at times, has some injury history.
Grilli?
Minor?
Seay?

That's not a bullpen that scares too many people I don't think. Their pitching still has some holes in it even with adding Willis.

Remember, the 2001-2004 Sox could mash for the most part. What did they win?

I'm not saying the Tigers won't be a good team. They will be very good. But a lock for playoffs or world series every year? Not yet.

btrain929
12-04-2007, 07:14 PM
I agree. I think they have huge question marks with their bullpen as-is and pray to god they have a White Sox '07-like showing.

What was Detroit's team salary last year? After acquiring Renteria, Cabrera, and Willis, what does that add, about 20-25 mil? Overall, it has to be up there.

jsg-07
12-04-2007, 07:17 PM
I agree. I think they have huge question marks with their bullpen as-is and pray to god they have a White Sox '07-like showing.

What was Detroit's team salary last year? After acquiring Renteria, Cabrera, and Willis, what does that add, about 20-25 mil? Overall, it has to be up there.

I just cant see how people who were excited about the sox 3 hours ago are ready to jump off a ledge now. Like now, all of the sudden, because cabrera went to detroit, all of the AL Central is impossible to overcome.

Lip Man 1
12-04-2007, 07:19 PM
Assuming the Florida-Detroit deal is true (and ESPN News is reporting it as such)I think it’s time Kenny held a press conference and admitted that despite his best efforts there is little or no way the White Sox can “contend” in 2008.

I never in my life thought I’d ever say something like this but that’s the reality of things. Only a miraculous change of heart by ownership and an immediate spending spree could put the Sox in a position to challenge the American League’s ‘super’ teams...Boston, the Yankees, Los Angeles, Detroit and Cleveland.

Ozzie was quoted directly in September as saying he wasn’t going to be put in a position of “lying to the fans” about ‘contending’ in 2008. That is about to be put to the test.

I think the Sox will upset more of their fans by 'claiming to contend' in 2008 then they would if they would simply admit the reality of things and work to improve the situation in the near future.

If I’m Kenny I say I tried and that the Sox are now going to go about trying to acquire as much talent as possible at the major and minor league levels in the next two years and take another objective look at things in 2010.

What bothers me most however about this off season situation is this.

Kenny wanted Renteria...Detroit got him.
Kenny wanted Hunter...the Angels got him.
Kenny wanted Cabrera...Detroit got him.

This isn’t an “anti” Kenny rant, again I like the guy and his dedicated desire to win. He’s won a World Series title and that counts for a lot but it doesn’t ‘count’ forever. This isn’t all entirely his doing, he has to take orders too just like most of us so he’s not completely at “fault.”

It’s just extremely disappointing how two years removed from a championship, any hopes I had of a second Sox ‘golden age’ (the first being the time period from 1951 through 1967) are dashed on the rocky reefs of reality.

The 'goal' right now, in my opinion, is to try to at least have a winning season in 2008. Win 82 games and that's a twelve game improvement, that's a ton...then keep trying to get talent and hope for better circumstances in 2010.

Lip

JB98
12-04-2007, 07:24 PM
Lip,

I think it's a little too early to say we can't contend, but I agree with the sentiment that I don't want to be lied to by KW and Sox brass.

Don't tell me we're contenders and trot out a rotation that includes guys like Floyd and Danks. Don't tell me we're contenders and present Jerry Owens as the leadoff hitter.

I can deal with a roster retool, if it becomes necessary. All long-time Sox fans have been through numerous "rebuilding" projects. We'll see where we are at the start of the season, and then we'll see where we are about midseason.

Huisj
12-04-2007, 07:36 PM
Kenny wanted Renteria...Detroit got him.
Kenny wanted Hunter...the Angels got him.
Kenny wanted Cabrera...Detroit got him.



So much for flying under the radar. It seems like that's what other teams are doing to KW now, and he's not doing it at all.

UserNameBlank
12-04-2007, 07:38 PM
I think this is the time for the Sox to really start planning ahead. I wouldn't unload everyone, but my own meaningless message board advice to the Sox would be something like this:

1. Deal PK for the best available package.
2. Swallow your stupid pride and sign Andruw Jones to a two year deal if he'll accept it. Let him rebuild his value then deal him off. If he won't come here for a short deal, then pick up Patterson for cheap and see if he can have a nice year. If that doesn't work then start Anderson or Sweeney. Don't sign Rowand!!!
3. Take offers on Javy. 2007 could arguably be looked at as the best year of his career since he put up his numbers in the AL, in a tough division, and he did it in a hitters park.
4. Sign a pitcher coming off of an injury on a one year deal with a team option for a second if possible. Colon would be best. Ditch him at the break for the best available package if he has a good year. If he sucks, get rid of him after the season and eat the buyout.
5. Make sure Thornton and MacDougal are in the pen next year. See if they can rebuild their value and then ditch them. Ditto with one of Aardsma/Masset.
6. Trade Dye and Contreras at the break or after the season if they can rebuild their value.
7. Draft whoever it is that you think is the best available player. Go over slot if you have to. Just get someone.
8. TRADE BOBBY JENKS!!! He might have the most value of anyone on this team. Get a stud position player for him.
9. Trade Crede for scraps if you have to. Don't look for positional needs; look for the most value regardless of position and make it work. Put Josh at 3B and let him develop there.

I think the Sox can use FA to add a star here and there over the next couple of years to keep the fans thinking they might be competitive. Maybe they can keep filling the seats. We do need a new core though. While it is not impossible to have a good offseason that leads to a spectacular regular season and another World Series title, we shouldn't be trading any more prospects unless they are for young players with real potential that are further along. Moves like the Carter-Quentin trade would be fine, but please, no more arb-eligible players unless it's a young guy we could lock up.

nccwsfan
12-04-2007, 07:55 PM
2005 also didn't have competition like the Angels, Tigers, and Red Sox. You're dreaming if you think we can repeat 2005 in 2008.

Prior to the start of the season many prognosticators would have said the White Sox weren't in the same league as the Yankees, Red Sox, or Twins for that matter. You can't assume that the Tigers have wrapped up the division because they made a big trade.

The White Sox still have some work to do- let's see where they are in mid February.

Over By There
12-04-2007, 08:00 PM
And I thought the other thread was ridiculous. Where was this "OMG TRADE THE WHOLE ****ING TEAM RIGHT NOW SO WE CAN CONTEND IN 2011!!!1!1!!" sentiment a few hours ago? If we had somehow landed Cabrera, but everything else had remained the same in the AL, we'd be celebrating our impending pennant.

I'm not saying the Sox are winning the division, much less the league next year, but the Tigers are just a few bad breaks (injuries, chemistry) from being an average AL team, a la the 2006 or 2007 Sox. I think a few people around here need to sleep on this and re-evaluate realistically in the morning.

SoxSpeed22
12-04-2007, 08:02 PM
Things went bad with this one.
Things went bad when Maggs didn't resign. Things also went bad when Omar Vizquel signed with the Giants. Things also went bad when Matt Clement turned down our offer for Boston. We'll just have to wait and see how it plays out. Maybe Kenny has something up his sleeve, maybe there are a few surprises ahead, probably not, but maybe.
And also, very poetic Lip.

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 08:06 PM
And I thought the other thread was ridiculous. Where was this "OMG TRADE THE WHOLE ****ING TEAM RIGHT NOW SO WE CAN CONTEND IN 2011!!!1!1!!" sentiment a few hours ago? If we had somehow landed Cabrera, but everything else had remained the same in the AL, we'd be celebrating our impending pennant.

I'm not saying the Sox are winning the division, much less the league next year, but the Tigers are just a few bad breaks (injuries, chemistry) from being an average AL team, a la the 2006 or 2007 Sox. I think a few people around here need to sleep on this and re-evaluate realistically in the morning.
It would have been different if he went to either LA team, but the fact he went to Detroit, a team already better than us, makes it really tough if not impossible to contend for 2 seasons. So ask yourself would you rather win 90 games in 08 and 09 probably not be close to Detroit and then have an old team with limited long term answers and no worthwile prospects. Or realize that 2nd place and 5th place mean same cause neither gets you in the playoffs and completely reload for an extended run starting in 2010-2011?

cbone
12-04-2007, 08:07 PM
Start unloading guys like Paulie, Thome, Dye, Vazquez and who ever you can in order to rebuild and plan for 2010-2011. We do not have a team that can compete with Anaheim, Detroit, Cleveland, Boston, and the Yankees.

It's December 2007 and you have thrown the towel in for the next 3 years. You have Detriot winning somewhere between 100 and 120 games in each of the next two seasons. It's baseball for Pete's sake. Anything can happen. :gulp:

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 08:08 PM
Things went bad with this one.
Things went bad when Maggs didn't resign. Things also went bad when Omar Vizquel signed with the Giants. Things also went bad when Matt Clement turned down our offer for Boston. We'll just have to wait and see how it plays out. Maybe Kenny has something up his sleeve, maybe there are a few surprises ahead, probably not, but maybe.
And also, very poetic Lip.
Magglio Ordonez didn't go to a team that we were already not as good as. Cabrera is going to a team that is better than us and now puts them in a category that we are light years from.

soxyess
12-04-2007, 08:10 PM
Magglio Ordonez didn't go to a team that we were already not as good as. Cabrera is going to a team that is better than us and now puts them in a category that we are light years from.

Right on! I cant believe there are people here that believe that we can compete with Detroit. Is this WSI or am I on a flub board?

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 08:11 PM
It's December 2007 and you have thrown the towel in for the next 3 years. You have Detriot winning somewhere between 100 and 120 games in each of the next two seasons. It's baseball for Pete's sake. Anything can happen. :gulp:
Again like i've asked others show me realistic options that would enable us to contend. I love Andruw Jones, yesterday I wanted him to be our CF but today what does adding Jones do? It makes us better sure but still not on Detroits level. If yo can find a way to add Jones and Bedard then we are in business. Jones and Haren i'll kiss ya. Unfortunately I don't see it.

areilly
12-04-2007, 08:11 PM
I think the Sox will upset more of their fans by 'claiming to contend' in 2008 then they would if they would simply admit the reality of things and work to improve the situation in the near future.

If I’m Kenny I say I tried and that the Sox are now going to go about trying to acquire as much talent as possible at the major and minor league levels in the next two years and take another objective look at things in 2010.

Couldn't have said it better myself, but I'll go a step further and say that, looking around the world of baseball (and sports in general), the second-happiest type of fan seems to be the one who just knows the team isn't going anywhere yet, but management has at least acknowledged the situation and is making positive steps toward contention. The reason I hate the Cubs is the same reason I respect the Panthers: ownership's commitment to (and honesty with) the fans.

No more of this talk of grinding. No more plans that fall to pieces at the slightest interference. No more "we're going to win now." Just a little "we're doing what we can" would go a long way. We're not stupid...sometimes I wonder if KW, JR et al realize that.

chisoxmike
12-04-2007, 08:13 PM
Lip,

I think it's a little too early to say we can't contend, but I agree with the sentiment that I don't want to be lied to by KW and Sox brass.



The problem is, Kenny won't lie, the Sox PR department and ticketing office does.

UserNameBlank
12-04-2007, 08:13 PM
Things went bad with this one.
Things went bad when Maggs didn't resign. Things also went bad when Omar Vizquel signed with the Giants. Things also went bad when Matt Clement turned down our offer for Boston. We'll just have to wait and see how it plays out. Maybe Kenny has something up his sleeve, maybe there are a few surprises ahead, probably not, but maybe.
And also, very poetic Lip.
You can't compare this to 2005.

Detroit wasn't loaded like they are now. Cleveland wasn't as good. The Twins were our main competition heading into that year, but after the Santana and Nathan deals get done, plus the Young deal and a full year of a presumably healthy Liriano in their rotation, the Twins in 2008 are going to be much stronger than the '05 Twins.

Then, the Boston team in the ALDS wasn't the 2008 squad, which is a lot stronger. The Angels who we beat in the ALCS are at least as strong in '08 if not stronger. The '08 Houston team is the only playoff team we beat that I think the '05 Sox would definitely roll over.

You put the '05 Sox in the '08 Central and they might not even make the playoffs.

cws05champ
12-04-2007, 08:13 PM
Assuming the Florida-Detroit deal is true (and ESPN News is reporting it as such)I think it’s time Kenny held a press conference and admitted that despite his best efforts there is little or no way the White Sox can “contend” in 2008.

I never in my life thought I’d ever say something like this but that’s the reality of things. Only a miraculous change of heart by ownership and an immediate spending spree could put the Sox in a position to challenge the American League’s ‘super’ teams...Boston, the Yankees, Los Angeles, Detroit and Cleveland.

Ozzie was quoted directly in September as saying he wasn’t going to be put in a position of “lying to the fans” about ‘contending’ in 2008. That is about to be put to the test.

I think the Sox will upset more of their fans by 'claiming to contend' in 2008 then they would if they would simply admit the reality of things and work to improve the situation in the near future.

The 'goal' right now, in my opinion, is to try to at least have a winning season in 2008. Win 82 games and that's a twelve game improvement, that's a ton...then keep trying to get talent and hope for better circumstances in 2010.

Lip

Does anyone now want a knee jerk reaction to this trade and blow a lot of money on a deal that will come back to haunt us? Also, I don't Beleive Kenny will ever say that he doesn't think we can compete...it would not send the right message to the current team and propective FA that may consider the Sox.

Over By There
12-04-2007, 08:14 PM
It would have been different if he went to either LA team, but the fact he went to Detroit, a team already better than us, makes it really tough if not impossible to contend for 2 seasons. So ask yourself would you rather win 90 games in 08 and 09 probably not be close to Detroit and then have an old team with limited long term answers and no worthwile prospects. Or realize that 2nd place and 5th place mean same cause neither gets you in the playoffs and completely reload for an extended run starting in 2010-2011?

If you're telling me we can sniff 90 wins, then you bet your ass I'd take it. You (and plenty of others) are ready to coronate the Tigers as WS champs on December 3. As I said in the trade thread, during the offseason of 05/06, everyone thought the Sox would be untouchable in 2006. The Tigers played out of their minds and kicked our ass. Plenty of people have made the same mistake thinking the Yankees and their star-studded lineup would walk all over the league year after year. So yes, I'll take a 90-win-ish club and take my chances next year instead of trading away the whole franchise (as some are foolishly suggesting).

Over By There
12-04-2007, 08:16 PM
Right on! I cant believe there are people here that believe that we can compete with Detroit. Is this WSI or am I on a flub board?

Perhaps the most ironic post I've read this week.

cws05champ
12-04-2007, 08:18 PM
You can't compare this to 2005.

Detroit wasn't loaded like they are now. Cleveland wasn't as good. The Twins were our main competition heading into that year, but after the Santana and Nathan deals get done, plus the Young deal and a full year of a presumably healthy Liriano in their rotation, the Twins in 2008 are going to be much stronger than the '05 Twins.

Then, the Boston team in the ALDS wasn't the 2008 squad, which is a lot stronger. The Angels who we beat in the ALCS are at least as strong in '08 if not stronger. The '08 Houston team is the only playoff team we beat that I think the '05 Sox would definitely roll over.

You put the '05 Sox in the '08 Central and they might not even make the playoffs.

I can't believe you would say that...did you watch the 2005 team? They didn't hit very well, but man they could pitch. If you could guarentee the Sox rotation and bullpen would have those same stats and clutch performances in tight situations, they would still win the divison. Pitching wins!! Plain and simple. And if your starters pitch 4 straight complete games against the Angels, you think they would lose?

soxyess
12-04-2007, 08:19 PM
If you're telling me we can sniff 90 wins, then you bet your ass I'd take it. You (and plenty of others) are ready to coronate the Tigers as WS champs on December 3. As I said in the trade thread, during the offseason of 05/06, everyone thought the Sox would be untouchable in 2006. The Tigers played out of their minds and kicked our ass. Plenty of people have made the same mistake thinking the Yankees and their star-studded lineup would walk all over the league year after year. So yes, I'll take a 90-win-ish club and take my chances next year instead of trading away the whole franchise (as some are foolishly suggesting).

The only way we get 90 wins next year is if they let us count 20 from 2007!

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 08:19 PM
If you're telling me we can sniff 90 wins, then you bet your ass I'd take it. You (and plenty of others) are ready to coronate the Tigers as WS champs on December 3. As I said in the trade thread, during the offseason of 05/06, everyone thought the Sox would be untouchable in 2006. The Tigers played out of their minds and kicked our ass. Plenty of people have made the same mistake thinking the Yankees and their star-studded lineup would walk all over the league year after year. So yes, I'll take a 90-win-ish club and take my chances next year instead of trading away the whole franchise (as some are foolishly suggesting).
90 wins won't win you **** next season. Detroit, Anaheim, Cleveland, NYY and Boston will be 95+ win teams next year. That takes care of division and wild card. Why waste time and money on a team that isn't a playoff team? If we start the over haul in 08, get some progression in 09 and then come the offseason between 09-10 we could possible make some big signings with the money we have saved and/or use some of the stocked prospects to trade for future free agents and make a title run.

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 08:21 PM
I can't believe you would say that...did you watch the 2005 team? They didn't hit very well, but man they could pitch. If you could guarentee the Sox rotation and bullpen would have those same stats and clutch performances in tight situations, they would still win the divison. Pitching wins!! Plain and simple. And if your starters pitch 4 straight complete games against the Angels, you think they would lose?
Ok Detroit has as good probably better pitching than us and an offense that aren't in the same zip code.

drewcifer
12-04-2007, 08:23 PM
You put the '05 Sox in the '08 Central and they might not even make the playoffs.

You're not looking at bullpen and defense, then. I like your posts, but no way the way that BP performed gets matched by the Twins, Tigers, or Indians with their 08 setup - at least as things sit today. Bobby was icing on that big ass cake.

That was lightning in a bottle.

DickAllen72
12-04-2007, 08:24 PM
Start unloading guys like Paulie, Thome, Dye, Vazquez and who ever you can in order to rebuild and plan for 2010-2011. We do not have a team that can compete with Anaheim, Detroit, Cleveland, Boston, and the Yankees. Those 5 are the 4 spots in the playoffs for the next 2-3 years. It sucks I hate to see it but I just can't picture any combination of trades and signings that will catapult us into a contending team.
I don't care about the Sox in 2011. I want to win now. Build a team that can contend in 2008, 2009 and possibly 2010. Backload contracts, give five or six year contracts, etc., whatever makes us better in '08-'10. I don't care about anything after the next three seasons at this point..

soxyess
12-04-2007, 08:25 PM
Does anyone now want a knee jerk reaction to this trade and blow a lot of money on a deal that will come back to haunt us? Also, I don't Beleive Kenny will ever say that he doesn't think we can compete...it would not send the right message to the current team and propective FA that may consider the Sox.

No! Tell me what moves we can make now that would make us competative in our division?

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 08:25 PM
I don't care about the Sox in 2011. I want to win now. Build a team that can contend in 2008, 2009 and possibly 2010. Backload contracts, give five or six year contracts, etc., whatever makes us better in '08-'10. I don't care about anything after the next three seasons at this point..
Like i've already said what additions do you see that will enable that?

Dolanski
12-04-2007, 08:26 PM
Again like i've asked others show me realistic options that would enable us to contend. I love Andruw Jones, yesterday I wanted him to be our CF but today what does adding Jones do? It makes us better sure but still not on Detroits level. If yo can find a way to add Jones and Bedard then we are in business. Jones and Haren i'll kiss ya. Unfortunately I don't see it.

Detroit's level? Wow, did they win the WS? Did they even make the playoffs? Jesus, they got two OVERRATED players from Florida for everything they have in the cupboard.

Some things to keep in mind:

Kenny Rogers will be back in the rotation for the Tigers unless of course its split pea soup day at the nursing home. Kenny loves him some split pea soup.

Zumaya broke his shoulder playing guitar hero while moving a washer out of his parents attic, but he will still be able to throw a fastball at the speed of light. And if not, Kenny Rogers nursing home roommate, Todd Jones, will pick up the slack as long as MLB makes an allowance for his rascal scooter out on the mound.

Dontrelle Willis did his best Todd Ritchie impersonation last season
(10-15 with a 5.17 ERA) but he should be back to lights out performance moving to the offensively-deficient American League.

Miguel Cabrera...you know, Tim Horton Donuts are just over the bridge in Windsor.

I always saw the Motor City Kitties as a carbon copy of the 05 Sox. Lot of players had career years, they caught lightning in a bottle, and then fizzled the following year. Now they are trying to buy their way back into the game. Methinks Karma will dictate otherwise.

Over By There
12-04-2007, 08:28 PM
90 wins won't win you **** next season.

I'm not going to argue that, because you're probably right. What I do argue is that you've stated with utter certainty several other teams that are going to win over 95. If we can get into the 90-win range, and thus be in contention for most of the year, I would take it, and let KW try again next year to build a championship squad. That as opposed to trading the roster in December and watching prospects get their brains bashed in for the next 3 years. Lest we forget, we are the Chicago White Sox, not the Florida Marlins.

SoxSpeed22
12-04-2007, 08:30 PM
You can't compare this to 2005.
Yeah, I can't, that was 3 years ago and everyone who wants an offseason like that again is dreaming. I'm annoyed like the rest of you that this happened, I am prepared for tough times. But there's a good reason that I put that picture off all the people lining up to jump.
Getonbckthr has already conceded 2008-2011. I never expected to go from 72 wins to contending for the world series. This will take time, granted that it would probably be easier with Cabrera, but who knows.

Lip Man 1
12-04-2007, 08:30 PM
Dolanski:

It's not just the Tigers though, that's the point. There are only four playoff spots available. Five teams right now, on paper (I grant you) look to be in better shape then the Sox. Boston, Yankees, Los Angeles, Detroit and Cleveland.

Two of those are in the Sox division.

That's the reality of things. An awful lot would have to go 'right' for the Sox and an awful lot 'wrong' for a number of other teams to put the Sox in position to take advantage.

The American League is far far stronger then it was just two years ago in 2005.

Lip

soxyess
12-04-2007, 08:30 PM
Detroit's level? Wow, did they win the WS? Did they even make the playoffs? Jesus, they got two OVERRATED players from Florida for everything they have in the cupboard.

Some things to keep in mind:

Kenny Rogers will be back in the rotation for the Tigers unless of course its split pea soup day at the nursing home. Kenny loves him some split pea soup.

Zumaya broke his shoulder playing guitar hero while moving a washer out of his parents attic, but he will still be able to throw a fastball at the speed of light.

Dontrelle Willis did his best Todd Ritchie impersonation last season
(10-15 with a 5.17 ERA) but he should be back to lights out performance moving to the offensively-deficient American League.

Miguel Cabrera...you know, Tim Horton Donuts are just over the bridge in Windsor.

I always saw the Motor City Kitties as a carbon copy of the 05 Sox. Lot of players had career years, they caught lightning in a bottle, and then fizzled the following year. Now they are trying to buy their way back into the game. Methinks Karma will dictate otherwise.

Overated players? Cabrera is one of the best young hitters in the game. Even overweight yast year his average was higher than anything we had, and Ozzie said he already has lost 15 lbs. HES ONLY 24 AND HES A SUPERSTAR!! Willis won 10 games on a terrible team, and with Detroits starting rotation only needs to win 10-15 to have a successful season.

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 08:31 PM
Detroit's level? Wow, did they win the WS? Did they even make the playoffs? Jesus, they got two OVERRATED players from Florida for everything they have in the cupboard.

Some things to keep in mind:

Kenny Rogers will be back in the rotation for the Tigers unless of course its split pea soup day at the nursing home. Kenny loves him some split pea soup.

Zumaya broke his shoulder playing guitar hero while moving a washer out of his parents attic, but he will still be able to throw a fastball at the speed of light.

Dontrelle Willis did his best Todd Ritchie impersonation last season
(10-15 with a 5.17 ERA) but he should be back to lights out performance moving to the offensively-deficient American League.

Miguel Cabrera...you know, Tim Horton Donuts are just over the bridge in Windsor.

I always saw the Motor City Kitties as a carbon copy of the 05 Sox. Lot of players had career years, they caught lightning in a bottle, and then fizzled the following year. Now they are trying to buy their way back into the game. Methinks Karma will dictate otherwise.
That bolded statement is enough to completely disregard this post. Miguel Cabrera is nearly on the same level as Alex Rodriguez and Albert Pujols. But ya he is over-rated. If you have to tell yourself that in order to believe this team has a chance to contend so be it. Optimism is nice realism easier to swallow and has a less depressing end result.

soxyess
12-04-2007, 08:33 PM
That bolded statement is enough so completely disregard this post. Miguel Cabrera is nearly on the same level as Alex Rodriguez and Albert Pujols. But ya he is over-rated. If you have to tell yourself that in order to believe this team has a chance to contend so be it. Optimism is nice realism easier to swallow and has a less depressing end result.

Thats so true. Anyone who thinks Cabrera is overrated knows nothing about baseball!!

UserNameBlank
12-04-2007, 08:34 PM
I can't believe you would say that...did you watch the 2005 team? They didn't hit very well, but man they could pitch. If you could guarentee the Sox rotation and bullpen would have those same stats and clutch performances in tight situations, they would still win the divison. Pitching wins!! Plain and simple. And if your starters pitch 4 straight complete games against the Angels, you think they would lose?

Pitching does win, but there is a HUGE difference between pitching to the '05 Twins, Tigers, and Indians and pitching to the '08 Twins, Tigers, and Indians. We had a very good staff that year, but lets not be naive. The offense in the AL Central is astounding. We have Thome, Dye, Konerko, Orlando Cabrera and Fields and we are probably still no better than the third best offensive club in our own division in '08. That's how ****ing sick this division has become.

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 08:37 PM
Yeah, I can't, that was 3 years ago and everyone who wants an offseason like that again is dreaming. I'm annoyed like the rest of you that this happened, I am prepared for tough times. But there's a good reason that I put that picture off all the people lining up to jump.
Getonbckthr has already conceded 2008-2011. I never expected to go from 72 wins to contending for the world series. This will take time, granted that it would probably be easier with Cabrera, but who knows.
All i'm saying its real simple whats the difference of winning 85-90 games in 08 and finishing 3rd opposed to winning 60 and finishing in 5th? Nothing because neither is in the playoffs. Also i'm really just conceding 08 and 09. After what Detroit did today and what Cleveland has I believe thats a realistic view. If we could get some solid major-league ready talent for some of our older, pricy veterans we should. Combine them with our system and by 2010 experience and pure talent could result in a Arizona type team.

Dolanski
12-04-2007, 08:38 PM
That bolded statement is enough so completely disregard this post. Miguel Cabrera is nearly on the same level as Alex Rodriguez and Albert Pujols. But ya he is over-rated. If you have to tell yourself that in order to believe this team has a chance to contend so be it. Optimism is nice realism easier to swallow and has a less depressing end result.
Since you mentioned the greatest player to ever walk the earth ARod, let me ask you, how many WS rings does he have? Did/doesn't he play for the greatest team to ever walk the earth NY Yankees?

Sarcasm aside, yes Cabrera is talented, but baseball is a team sport. Detroit was formidable last year and they added a weapon, but he can't hit in 9 spots nor can he pitch for them every play. Detroit is not as awesome as everyone is making them out to be.

cbone
12-04-2007, 08:42 PM
Agree or disagree, we're talking baseball. It was either look back here to see the latest or read Fenway's parking lot post about a 42 foot snowman. It's the offseason. Keep up the banter gentlemen and ladies. :smile:

Stoky44
12-04-2007, 08:42 PM
I don't care about the Sox in 2011. I want to win now. Build a team that can contend in 2008, 2009 and possibly 2010. Backload contracts, give five or six year contracts, etc., whatever makes us better in '08-'10. I don't care about anything after the next three seasons at this point..

The problem with thinking like that is.... look at the '05 roster and we maybe overpaid, or gave to many years to people, ie Jose Contreras. Now we have a 95-100 Mil payrol for 14 players and some major holes in the team. At best right now we are in 3rd place. We had our 'win now' team in '05. We tried for it in '06. Its not a lack of spending, its a lack of having good young talent in the sox system. That is how other teams with out 150 M budgets do it. Spend a good amount of cash in vets but still have good, young, cheap talent. Tigers are doing it and so are the Twins and Indians. Hell thats how we did it in '05 too. Now we have Josh Fields, Jenks, and Wassermann. No stud cheap starters or pen, minus Bobby. We will just be digging a hole deeper if we owe people lots of cash on long stupid deals. Because with that thinking in '09 and '10 we are in worse shape then we are now, and that will be here before you know it.

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 08:43 PM
Since you mentioned the greatest player to ever walk the earth ARod, let me ask you, how many WS rings does he have? Did/doesn't he play for the greatest team to ever walk the earth NY Yankees?

Sarcasm aside, yes Cabrera is talented, but baseball is a team sport. Detroit was formidable last year and they added a weapon, but he can't hit in 9 spots nor can he pitch for them every play. Detroit is not as awesome as everyone is making them out to be.
Show me a weakness besides Jacque Jones in that lineup. Pudge-.290-300 hitter, Guillen .290-300 hitter, Polanco -.315 hitter, Renteria- 280-290 hitter, Cabrera- .330 hitter plus tons of power, Granderson-20/20/20/20 guy, Ordonez-.300 hitter with solid power, Sheffield -300 hitter wth solid power. That isn't just a lineup to knock homeruns around. That is a lineup of pure hitters with power. Look at their current staff where is there a weakness? Sure the bullpen is bad but will they need it with their offense and rotation?

UserNameBlank
12-04-2007, 08:45 PM
Yeah, I can't, that was 3 years ago and everyone who wants an offseason like that again is dreaming. I'm annoyed like the rest of you that this happened, I am prepared for tough times. But there's a good reason that I put that picture off all the people lining up to jump.
Getonbckthr has already conceded 2008-2011. I never expected to go from 72 wins to contending for the world series. This will take time, granted that it would probably be easier with Cabrera, but who knows.
Well, baseball isn't played on paper obviously, but just looking at some of the talent our competition has, it is very hard to be objective and say we'll be in the playoffs sometime before the 2010 season. I guess if you viewed it as a footrace, Detroit and Cleveland would be way out in front and in order for us to catch up and pass, we'd need one of them to collapse. It didn't look like we were in control going into the '07 season, and it looks a lot worse now.

Still, I think because of the Sox' budget we'll be able to put some veterans out there to at least put out 80+ win clubs and draw fans. But, I don't think we'll really be factors until a couple of years from now when we have some studs performing, Detroit's young guys are getting expensive and their aging players start declining, and Cleveland is struggling to afford paying their players. Although, since KC looks to be in good hands with Dayton Moore, by then we'll have KC to worry about and of course there are the Twins.

Man, this divison is not the place to be if you're looking to walk into the playoffs sometime over the next 5-6 years.

ShoelessJoeS
12-04-2007, 08:47 PM
Start unloading guys like Paulie, Thome, Dye, Vazquez and who ever you can in order to rebuild and plan for 2010-2011. We do not have a team that can compete with Anaheim, Detroit, Cleveland, Boston, and the Yankees. Those 5 are the 4 spots in the playoffs for the next 2-3 years. It sucks I hate to see it but I just can't picture any combination of trades and signings that will catapult us into a contending team.Although I DO NOT support this idea whatsoever, I'm curious as to why you didn't mention Buehrle??? If you are trying to unload everyone and plan on winning in 2011, don't you think Buehrle would give us the most in return given his current contract and value???

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 08:47 PM
Although I DO NOT support this idea whatsoever, I'm curious as to why you didn't mention Buehrle??? If you are trying to unload everyone and plan on winning in 2011, don't you think Buehrle would give us the most in return given his current contract and value???
No trade clause. Age. Type of pitcher he is.

soxyess
12-04-2007, 08:48 PM
Show me a weakness besides Jacque Jones in that lineup. Pudge-.290-300 hitter, Guillen .290-300 hitter, Polanco -.315 hitter, Renteria- 280-290 hitter, Cabrera- .330 hitter plus tons of power, Granderson-20/20/20/20 guy, Ordonez-.300 hitter with solid power, Sheffield -300 hitter wth solid power. That isn't just a lineup to knock homeruns around. That is a lineup of pure hitters with power. Look at their current staff where is there a weakness? Sure the bullpen is bad but will they need it with their offense and rotation?
Detroit Sox
Pudge 290-300 AJ 260
Guillen 290-300 Paulie 260
Polanco 315 Dye 280
Renteria 280- 290 Cabrerra 280
Cabrera 330 Fields 260
Mags 300 Owens 260
Granderson 20/20/20/20 Pablo 260

We are so evenly matched!!!

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 08:50 PM
Detroit Sox
Pudge 290-300 AJ 260
Guillen 290-300 Paulie 260
Polanco 315 Dye 280
Renteria 280- 290 Cabrerra 280
Cabrera 330 Fields 260
Mags 300 Owens 260
Granderson 20/20/20/20 Pablo 260

We are so evenly matched!!!
Well thats what i'm trying to say.

tstrike2000
12-04-2007, 09:01 PM
It's easy to overreact with the news of this trade. Yes, the Tigers are tough on paper. Of course, how many World Series has NY won with arguably the best player in baseball playing 3B? The Sox still have the core talent to take this division. With another SP and CF that will help to start fill the holes.

Tragg
12-04-2007, 09:01 PM
Who is Pablo?

The Tigers have a lineup like the Yankees. But, their pitching remains suspect. They weren't as good last year as we were in 06, imo

OUr problem as many have suggested is that we're not getting enough out of our minors. What talent we have is in minor league pitchign, so I hope we use the hell out of it.

soxyess
12-04-2007, 09:02 PM
Your right. Our lineup is garbage compared to theirs

Dolanski
12-04-2007, 09:02 PM
Show me a weakness besides Jacque Jones in that lineup. Pudge-.290-300 hitter, Guillen .290-300 hitter, Polanco -.315 hitter, Renteria- 280-290 hitter, Cabrera- .330 hitter plus tons of power, Granderson-20/20/20/20 guy, Ordonez-.300 hitter with solid power, Sheffield -300 hitter wth solid power. That isn't just a lineup to knock homeruns around. That is a lineup of pure hitters with power. Look at their current staff where is there a weakness? Sure the bullpen is bad but will they need it with their offense and rotation?

Kenny Rogers was hurt most of last season and will be 43 next season. I doubt there is much gas in the tank (see Randy Johnson and Roger Clemens last year)

Dontrelle Willis is overhyped. Check out his stats: http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/willido03.shtml
Outside of 2005, his numbers aren't that great. It is looking more and more like that was a fluke year and he is a 3rd or 4th starter. Nothing too special.

And the only other noteworthy pitcher is...Justin Verlander. He is a great young arm, but not so much against the Sox.

Career stats vs CHW: 5.96 ERA, 1-4 record 45.1 inn
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=7590&type=pitching3&three=1

Perhaps we should all just step back and take a deep breath. Too many people running around here claiming the sky is falling and freaking out. There is a reason why you play the games. You don't get trophies for winning the offseason.

soxyess
12-04-2007, 09:05 PM
Who is Pablo?

The Tigers have a lineup like the Yankees. But, their pitching remains suspect. They weren't as good last year as we were in 06, imo

OUr problem as many have suggested is that we're not getting enough out of our minors. What talent we have is in minor league pitchign, so I hope we use the hell out of it.

Pablo Ozuna. Suspect pitching? Yea maybe their bulpen is a little week, but they have one of the best starting rotaions in baseball, and with that lineup they wont be in a lot of one run games. We have talent in our minor league pitching?

soxyess
12-04-2007, 09:07 PM
Kenny Rogers was hurt most of last season and will be 43 next season. I doubt there is much gas in the tank (see Randy Johnson and Roger Clemens last year)

Dontrelle Willis is overhyped. Check out his stats: http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/willido03.shtml
Outside of 2005, his numbers aren't that great. It is looking more and more like that was a fluke year and he is a 3rd or 4th starter. Nothing too special.

And the only other noteworthy pitcher is...Justin Verlander. He is a great young arm, but not so much against the Sox.

Career stats vs CHW: 5.96 ERA, 1-4 record 45.1 inn
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=7590&type=pitching3&three=1

Perhaps we should all just step back and take a deep breath. Too many people running around here claiming the sky is falling and freaking out. There is a reason why you play the games. You don't get trophies for winning the offseason.

Will you please be realistic, and stop with your nonsense!

Dolanski
12-04-2007, 09:10 PM
Will you please be realistic, and stop with your nonsense!

What? Rogers is 43. Dontrelle is average and we own Verlander. You have stats to back that up, how is that not being realistic?

You just want to piss and moan about how bad you think the Sox will be. Take your prozac and calm down.

ShoelessJoeS
12-04-2007, 09:15 PM
Kenny Rogers was hurt most of last season and will be 43 next season. I doubt there is much gas in the tank (see Randy Johnson and Roger Clemens last year)

Dontrelle Willis is overhyped. Check out his stats: http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/willido03.shtml
Outside of 2005, his numbers aren't that great. It is looking more and more like that was a fluke year and he is a 3rd or 4th starter. Nothing too special.

And the only other noteworthy pitcher is...Justin Verlander. He is a great young arm, but not so much against the Sox.

Career stats vs CHW: 5.96 ERA, 1-4 record 45.1 inn
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=7590&type=pitching3&three=1

Perhaps we should all just step back and take a deep breath. Too many people running around here claiming the sky is falling and freaking out. There is a reason why you play the games. You don't get trophies for winning the offseason.I agree. Detroit does have a nice lineup, but their pitching isn't the greatest (especially the bullpen without Zumaya).

Will you please be realistic, and stop with your nonsense!:rolling:

paciorek1983
12-04-2007, 09:17 PM
You still have to play the games, otherwise wuoldn't the Yankees have won everey series since the beginning of the century??

Tragg
12-04-2007, 09:18 PM
Pablo Ozuna. Suspect pitching? Yea maybe their bulpen is a little week, but they have one of the best starting rotaions in baseball, and with that lineup they wont be in a lot of one run games. We have talent in our minor league pitching?
I thought yall were running down starters. Ozuna is a utility player, if that. He slap hits and runs fast so I guess some people like him. The idea of him starting is more ridiculous than Owens.

Gio, Egbert, Broadway, DLS, Haeger ---> better than we have in position players.

A selloff wouldn't help anything long term. We may get a few prospects (although I can't remember the last top prospect the Sox got when they dumped a player - can you?). It would hurt a lot more in the stands and wallet than the few prospects we may get would help.

...
12-04-2007, 09:18 PM
Will you please be realistic, and stop with your nonsense!

Take your own advise...

Malgar 12
12-04-2007, 09:27 PM
:darkclouds:

Meh. Who knows. Baseball is a crazy game. I thought we were gonna be middle of the pack before '05, and so did most everybody else. Paulie, Dye, and Thome have the years they are capable of, Feilds hits his potential, and the kiddos pitch pretty good, anything can happen. Plus, we aren't done, and there are some pretty good players out there.

Hey didn't the Tigers get worse last year after they got a big name (Sheffield)? Didn't the Yankees STOP losing titles as soon as they started going after the big name guys? A few smart (seemingly small) moves are better than the proverbial "big splash."

Can I get an Amen! There has not been one pitch thrown in the 2008 season. (PS wasn't everybody predicting the Indians would suck again last year, and they were one game away from the World Series)

JackK
12-04-2007, 09:41 PM
Does anyone now want a knee jerk reaction to this trade and blow a lot of money on a deal that will come back to haunt us? Also, I don't Beleive Kenny will ever say that he doesn't think we can compete...it would not send the right message to the current team and propective FA that may consider the Sox.

Thanks for having a brain. I was getting worried here after reading some of these posts.

nccwsfan
12-04-2007, 09:43 PM
It's easy to overreact with the news of this trade. Yes, the Tigers are tough on paper. Of course, how many World Series has NY won with arguably the best player in baseball playing 3B? The Sox still have the core talent to take this division. With another SP and CF that will help to start fill the holes.

Throw in Giambi, Mussina, R Johnson, Sheffield, Damon, Abreu, Matsui, Pavano, Jaret Wright, Kevin Brown, even Robin Ventura in 2002.

No one is guaranteed squat in December. But the 2008 Tigers are different.

ilsox7
12-04-2007, 09:47 PM
This ****ing blows. I've now got the Sox penciled in for 42 wins in the each of the next 32 years. And I do not see us even beating Detroit in one game until 2023.

PicktoCLick72
12-04-2007, 10:11 PM
This ****ing blows. I've now got the Sox penciled in for 42 wins in the each of the next 32 years. And I do not see us even beating Detroit in one game until 2023.

42 wins?!?!?!?! Quit drinking the Kool Aid. We'll be lucky not to lose 135. Trade everyone and rebuild for 2120 when baseball on the moon will play to our advantage.

JermaineDye05
12-04-2007, 10:13 PM
This ****ing blows. I've now got the Sox penciled in for 42 wins in the each of the next 32 years. And I do not see us even beating Detroit in one game until 2023.

Talk about overreacting. The Tigers get Miguel Cabrera and that affects the Sox to only getting 42 wins? *****. I'm upset too, but I'm pretty sure the Sox do better then 2007 next season.

itsnotrequired
12-04-2007, 10:14 PM
Talk about overreacting. The Tigers get Miguel Cabrera and that affects the Sox to only getting 42 wins? *****. I'm upset too, but I'm pretty sure the Sox do better then 2007 next season.

:rolling:

ShoelessJoeS
12-04-2007, 10:17 PM
Talk about overreacting. The Tigers get Miguel Cabrera and that affects the Sox to only getting 42 wins? *****. I'm upset too, but I'm pretty sure the Sox do better then 2007 next season.LOL... No need to worry JD05, the Teal Police are on their way.

doublem23
12-04-2007, 10:19 PM
Before you all give the Tigers the division next year, I think you need to recheck their pitching stats from 2006.

DickAllen72
12-04-2007, 10:24 PM
Like i've already said what additions do you see that will enable that?
Sign Fukudome and then use the rest of the offseason bolstering the pitching staff.

PalehosePlanet
12-04-2007, 10:31 PM
Yeah. Thank goodness we don't have a stacked lineup along with a rotation of Verlander, Bonderman, Robertson, Rogers and Dontrelle Wills, and thank goodness that in order to get that stacked lineup with a sick rotation (and pretty good bullpen) we only had to give up players that wouldn't have made the roster anyway, top prospects or not

*****! You mean Dontrelle Willis of the 5.17 ERA and 241 HA in the freakin' NL!! The regressing fast Bonderman of the 5.01 ERA, 44 year old Kenny Rogers of the 4.43 ERA, and Robertson of the 4.76 ERA who has zero potential to get better. Other than Verlander this teams pitching is terrible. Throw in Todd Jones ( the worst closer in baseball), 4.26 ERA setup man Fernando Rodney, and no Zumaya and this is about the least "stacked" pitching staff in the AL, including The Rays.

Tigers better hope than can win ALOT of 12-10 game next year. IMO: Cleveland is still the team to beat in our division.

areilly
12-04-2007, 11:21 PM
Tigers better hope than can win ALOT of 12-10 game next year. IMO: Cleveland is still the team to beat in our division.

The point being that Detroit is at least in the discussion of the top of the division. And that the Sox are still staring up at 3 teams, even moreso after KW fails at the linchpins of his big plan.

sullythered
12-04-2007, 11:36 PM
This ****ing blows. I've now got the Sox penciled in for 42 wins in the each of the next 32 years. And I do not see us even beating Detroit in one game until 2023.
:rolling:

sullythered
12-04-2007, 11:40 PM
Hey it's too bad baseball is played inside a computer and not on a baseball field. Then maybe we would stand a chance against the Tigers.

I ****ing hate what stupid ass fantasy baseball has done to the way fans look at building a team.

Oh, and the Tigers pitchers all blow, save one guy.

Go Sox.

Nellie_Fox
12-04-2007, 11:49 PM
http://moomookun.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/white_flag.jpg

guillen4life13
12-05-2007, 12:50 AM
I was saying these things before 2005 and I ate crow. I'll say them again and accept that I could be wrong IF things go differently... BUT--

In 2005, the Twins were our primary threat going in, with Cleveland also considered a threat (though unproven at the time). Cleveland made a push in the end. Three years later, Cleveland is coming off a WS appearance, and Detroit has totally stacked their lineup and staff. And while I don't expect Dontrelle to be as stellar as he was in '05, I do not expect him to have a 5+ ERA in 2008, even with the switch to the AL. With the run support he will be getting, I don't think 15-20 W is out of the question for him. None of you can deny that he has some wicked pitching talent, and if one bad year after a string of above average ones determines everything, then Konerko and his incredible '03 campaign make him a horrible player. The White Sox project to a third place finish.

I don't think it's adequate to parallel the post '04 offseason to this one, or any other in KW's tenor as GM. In '04, the Sox were 83-79. In '07, the Sox were 72-90. Big difference. The other difference is that during the '02-'04 seasons, the Twins were the only reasonably team in the division worthy of a playoff birth, doing it with young guys they themselves developed (good pitching) and playing incredible fundamental baseball. Now you have the Indians AND Tigers. For '06-'08, Even two weeks ago I was saying that I think it's time for the Sox to rebuild--the Willis/Cabrera trade just convinces me further. Look at how both the Indians and Tigers (and, you watch, the Twins will be back sooner than we realize) came to the level they're at now. They grew some quality prospects and key veterans.

I probably won't go as far as some people on these boards have, but I will say that, if the Sox are not contending in July, it's time to trade anyone who can fetch some value. I've been big on trading Konerko for a few years now as he is the most valuable (to other teams) guy on the Sox except for possibly Buehrle.

I don't approach this as a dark cloud situation--I see it as quite the opposite. I'd like the White Sox to follow the model Mark Shapiro has set for Cleveland. In 2001, they won the ALC and that was the last hurrah. A four year rebuild centered around Sabathia, Martinez and Sizemore, with later additions of Hafner, etc., brought them back to being a respectable team within four years, and a pennant winner in six. Good scouting (hello, Buddy Bell), smart dealing, and this team can and should be right back in the mix around 2010 or 2011, and I think they could sustain their dominance over a longer period of time via that route.

In response to all of those saying "big names don't win the world series, just ask the Yankees!" I counter: Big names get you to the playoffs. Just ask the Yankees.

You've gotta get to the playoffs before you can even contend for a World Series.

Good night.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 12:52 AM
*****! You mean Dontrelle Willis of the 5.17 ERA and 241 HA in the freakin' NL!! The regressing fast Bonderman of the 5.01 ERA, 44 year old Kenny Rogers of the 4.43 ERA, and Robertson of the 4.76 ERA who has zero potential to get better. Other than Verlander this teams pitching is terrible. Throw in Todd Jones ( the worst closer in baseball), 4.26 ERA setup man Fernando Rodney, and no Zumaya and this is about the least "stacked" pitching staff in the AL, including The Rays.

Tigers better hope than can win ALOT of 12-10 game next year. IMO: Cleveland is still the team to beat in our division.

Yeah our rotation is so much better.....You got me there..

Or wait, what I meant to say is we have one pitcher who can hope to compete with Verlander on a good day (Vazquez). One pitcher who is likely to be in the Rogers territory unless he has a good year (Burly). And three pitchers who can't hope to be any better than their 3-5 in their wildest dreams (Contreras, Danks, and indeterminate).

And yeah, our bullpen of Jenks and nobody else (or nobody else + Linebrink) is really something to be crowing about.

GMAMFB

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 12:56 AM
Hey it's too bad baseball is played inside a computer and not on a baseball field. Then maybe we would stand a chance against the Tigers.

I ****ing hate what stupid ass fantasy baseball has done to the way fans look at building a team.

Oh, and the Tigers pitchers all blow, save one guy.

Go Sox.

Yeah, this is computer ball:rolleyes:

Look--we will continue to have the 3rd best (at BEST) team in teh Central unless injuries happen. This is not SABRmetrics. This is not PECOTA. This is looking at who's going to take the field.

If you want to discard that, that's fine, but we might as well just close down offseason discussions completely because reason, logic, and actual baseball played of years past clearly have no relevance to your idea of how to determine who is a favorite to win a division.

I mean, ****--conceivably, KC could win the World Series this year...but most reasonable human beings don't expect that to happen barring preposterous injuries and a number of nearly impossible career years...

Likewise to the White Sox, whose lineup, rotation, and bullpen are not just behind the Tigers, but also the Indians.

Should we show up to play each 162 games? Sure. Absolutely. Who knows. But it's hardly Basebally Prospectusing of me to say we're the prohibitive underdog to even COMPETE for a wild card spot

ChiSoxPatF
12-05-2007, 06:17 AM
I think some measured approach to this upcoming season is in order. We are the third best team in this division, on paper, and we are coming off a 72-win season. While I don't think we should trade away everyone, because we still have a shot at competing but I also don't think its wise to start trading for 1- or 2-year players. Or, for that matter, sign aging stars like AJones (or Hunter would have been).

Why not follow the model of the Carlos Quentin trade? Kenny should start looking for players who have huge upside and are major league ready but are being forced out because of depth charts. We have some veterans that can help teams now and keep us from selling our future. Case in point, I think players like Josh Hamilton should be a priority. He can help immediately, fill a need, but he will also be in a uniform 5-6 years from now.

I know its easier said than done but those are my two cents. The sky isn't falling, but its is getting cloudy.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 07:24 AM
I think some measured approach to this upcoming season is in order. We are the third best team in this division, on paper, and we are coming off a 72-win season. While I don't think we should trade away everyone, because we still have a shot at competing but I also don't think its wise to start trading for 1- or 2-year players. Or, for that matter, sign aging stars like AJones (or Hunter would have been).

Why not follow the model of the Carlos Quentin trade? Kenny should start looking for players who have huge upside and are major league ready but are being forced out because of depth charts. We have some veterans that can help teams now and keep us from selling our future. Case in point, I think players like Josh Hamilton should be a priority. He can help immediately, fill a need, but he will also be in a uniform 5-6 years from now.

I know its easier said than done but those are my two cents. The sky isn't falling, but its is getting cloudy.

I think your attitude about 2008 is right on.....I just hope Ozzie shares your POV

Malgar 12
12-05-2007, 08:52 AM
I was saying these things before 2005 and I ate crow. I'll say them again and accept that I could be wrong IF things go differently... BUT--

In 2005, the Twins were our primary threat going in, with Cleveland also considered a threat (though unproven at the time). Cleveland made a push in the end. Three years later, Cleveland is coming off a WS appearance, and Detroit has totally stacked their lineup and staff. And while I don't expect Dontrelle to be as stellar as he was in '05, I do not expect him to have a 5+ ERA in 2008, even with the switch to the AL. With the run support he will be getting, I don't think 15-20 W is out of the question for him. None of you can deny that he has some wicked pitching talent, and if one bad year after a string of above average ones determines everything, then Konerko and his incredible '03 campaign make him a horrible player. The White Sox project to a third place finish.

I don't think it's adequate to parallel the post '04 offseason to this one, or any other in KW's tenor as GM. In '04, the Sox were 83-79. In '07, the Sox were 72-90. Big difference. The other difference is that during the '02-'04 seasons, the Twins were the only reasonably team in the division worthy of a playoff birth, doing it with young guys they themselves developed (good pitching) and playing incredible fundamental baseball. Now you have the Indians AND Tigers. For '06-'08, Even two weeks ago I was saying that I think it's time for the Sox to rebuild--the Willis/Cabrera trade just convinces me further. Look at how both the Indians and Tigers (and, you watch, the Twins will be back sooner than we realize) came to the level they're at now. They grew some quality prospects and key veterans.

I probably won't go as far as some people on these boards have, but I will say that, if the Sox are not contending in July, it's time to trade anyone who can fetch some value. I've been big on trading Konerko for a few years now as he is the most valuable (to other teams) guy on the Sox except for possibly Buehrle.

I don't approach this as a dark cloud situation--I see it as quite the opposite. I'd like the White Sox to follow the model Mark Shapiro has set for Cleveland. In 2001, they won the ALC and that was the last hurrah. A four year rebuild centered around Sabathia, Martinez and Sizemore, with later additions of Hafner, etc., brought them back to being a respectable team within four years, and a pennant winner in six. Good scouting (hello, Buddy Bell), smart dealing, and this team can and should be right back in the mix around 2010 or 2011, and I think they could sustain their dominance over a longer period of time via that route.

In response to all of those saying "big names don't win the world series, just ask the Yankees!" I counter: Big names get you to the playoffs. Just ask the Yankees.

You've gotta get to the playoffs before you can even contend for a World Series.

Good night.

When did Cleveland win the pennant?

hi im skot
12-05-2007, 08:54 AM
In 2005, the Twins were our primary threat going in, with Cleveland also considered a threat (though unproven at the time). Cleveland made a push in the end. Three years later, Cleveland is coming off a WS appearance, and Detroit has totally stacked their lineup and staff.


When was Cleveland last in the World Series? 1997?

:dunno:

Frontman
12-05-2007, 08:58 AM
They did give up a ton and they will dominate the division for a couple years. Thats why we got get youth now. Let them develope. Then when Detroit has an aged roster (Besides Miggy and Dtrain :angry:) we can then take it over.

And one good injury to either Caberra or Willis and that trade will be considered "bad" by Detroit fans.

Its December of 2007. I'll freak out come June of 2008 if things are going well.

SoxGirl4Life
12-05-2007, 08:59 AM
When was Cleveland last in the World Series? 1997?

:dunno:



Man, if message boards were around in the 70's --I shudder to think of it! :whiner:

Dolanski
12-05-2007, 09:10 AM
When did Cleveland win the pennant?

Must have been after Detroit won the World Series

guillen4life13
12-05-2007, 09:13 AM
When was Cleveland last in the World Series? 1997?

:dunno:

ggaaah. Brain fart at 1:30AM while taking a study break. For some reason I had it in my head that Cleveland was in the World Series this past year even though the Red Sox won it all.

Either way, they came within one game of a world series appearance. That's my point.

kitekrazy
12-05-2007, 11:20 AM
Start unloading guys like Paulie, Thome, Dye, Vazquez and who ever you can in order to rebuild and plan for 2010-2011. We do not have a team that can compete with Anaheim, Detroit, Cleveland, Boston, and the Yankees. Those 5 are the 4 spots in the playoffs for the next 2-3 years. It sucks I hate to see it but I just can't picture any combination of trades and signings that will catapult us into a contending team.

There's a reason why you are not a GM.

kitekrazy
12-05-2007, 11:28 AM
The only one in that list you could "unload" is Paulie. Dye hasn't even played a game since an extension, and Thome has just 1 year left for basically an AL only suitor.

The situation is what it is.

And trading Vazquez now... that's ridiculous.

It wouldn't be surprised if they've checked what they would get in return for Dye and Paulie and it wasn't worth it.

Only an idiot or Bill Wirtz would trade Vasquez. If he pitches like last year and Contreras returns to form they could be in the race.

This is a very tough division. On paper Detroit should come out on top but that's why they play the game.

BadBobbyJenks
12-05-2007, 11:42 AM
Yeah. Thank goodness we don't have a stacked lineup along with a rotation of Verlander, Bonderman, Robertson, Rogers and Dontrelle Wills, and thank goodness that in order to get that stacked lineup with a sick rotation (and pretty good bullpen) we only had to give up players that wouldn't have made the roster anyway, top prospects or not


The one thing Ill say about the tigers is they could be a lot like the yanks of the past few years. Brilliant lineup and suspect pitching.

I dont trust that pen, and do you trust everyone behind verlander?

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 12:32 PM
The one thing Ill say about the tigers is they could be a lot like the yanks of the past few years. Brilliant lineup and suspect pitching.

I dont trust that pen, and do you trust everyone behind verlander?

Rogers has proven he can pitch. Bonderman's solid.

Their rotation isn't a world beater, but they have one incredible arm, and two solid arms, and one guy in Willis who's just 2 years removed from competing for a CY Young (and is still relatively young)

I think their rotation has some question marks, but I'd be a lot more confident if we were going into the season with that staff

UserNameBlank
12-05-2007, 12:34 PM
There's a reason why you are not a GM.

There is a reason Dave Dombrowski is. He's the one who made this deal, and the reason he has his job is because he did the EXACT SAME BASIC THING that bckthr is proposing with the Marlins.

getonbckthr
12-05-2007, 02:37 PM
There's a reason why you are not a GM.
Can I have whatever your smoking or drinking because apparently realistic expectations don't apply, only those that are optimistic and misleading.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 02:45 PM
Can I have whatever your smoking or drinking because apparently realistic expectations don't apply, only thoe that are optimistic and misleading.

Yeah--it seems people are pretty worked up trying to talk themselves in circles about how lousy the Tigers are. Hell, if we can scrounge up arguments to call the Tigers a "suspect" team, what epithet should we use for the 2008 White Sox?

spiffie
12-05-2007, 02:51 PM
Yeah--it seems people are pretty worked up trying to talk themselves in circles about how lousy the Tigers are. Hell, if we can scrounge up arguments to call the Tigers a "suspect" team, what epithet should we use for the 2008 White Sox?
Under the radar.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 02:57 PM
Under the radar.

I hope so!!!

Dolanski
12-05-2007, 03:32 PM
Yeah--it seems people are pretty worked up trying to talk themselves in circles about how lousy the Tigers are. Hell, if we can scrounge up arguments to call the Tigers a "suspect" team, what epithet should we use for the 2008 White Sox?

So we should respond like you and getonbckthr and lament how bad we are, how are season is over, and how we need to start everything over? How many times has a team won the offseason and done nothing with it once the games started?

To pull an example from our own team (not to pour any salt in any wounds), but in 2006, writers, fans, etc were cheering our signing on Jim Thome and stating that the AL Central was a given for us because we added a huge bat to our lineup that scrapped for runs and we had nothing to worry because our pitching staff was so solid. How did our season end that year?

Sure, on paper they have a solid lineup, but their pitching staff doesn't scare me. We own Verlander, Rogers is 43, and Willis has been in decline since 2005 and now moving to a stronger league. Their bullpen is anchored by another geriatric, and Zumaya is gone.

The sky isn't falling Chicken Little, but it might be raining...

areilly
12-05-2007, 03:38 PM
Yeah--it seems people are pretty worked up trying to talk themselves in circles about how lousy the Tigers are. Hell, if we can scrounge up arguments to call the Tigers a "suspect" team, what epithet should we use for the 2008 White Sox?

Under the radar.

Waaaay under the radar. As in, at the bottom.

BadBobbyJenks
12-05-2007, 03:42 PM
Rogers has proven he can pitch. Bonderman's solid.

Their rotation isn't a world beater, but they have one incredible arm, and two solid arms, and one guy in Willis who's just 2 years removed from competing for a CY Young (and is still relatively young)

I think their rotation has some question marks, but I'd be a lot more confident if we were going into the season with that staff


Oh Id be more confident with theres, Im just saying its not anything I will bow down to and say we have no chance against.

doublem23
12-05-2007, 03:45 PM
Oh Id be more confident with theres, Im just saying its not anything I will bow down to and say we have no chance against.

Ssh, don't you know? The Tigers have already been declared the AL Central winners for the next decade.

Come on, 2018!

Nobody wants to know that Jeremy Bonderman broke down and regressed badly in 2005, or that Dontrelle Willis has been pretty paltry (in the National League the last two years), or that Kenny Rogers is 43 and coming off an injury-plagues season, or that they just traded their most MLB-ready pitching prospect away, or that Joel Zumaya is hurt with some whisperings that this is potentially career-threatening... There is nothing negative allowed about the Tigers.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 03:46 PM
Ssh, don't you know? The Tigers have already been declared the AL Central winners for the next decade.

Come on, 2018!

Hyperbole is fun.

Do you think at Royals boards they're saying "JEEZ I mean, THAT'S WHY THEY PLAY THE GAMES!!!!" Or do you think they're being rational about the fact that they have slim to no chance of contending?

doublem23
12-05-2007, 03:52 PM
Hyperbole is fun.

Do you think at Royals boards they're saying "JEEZ I mean, THAT'S WHY THEY PLAY THE GAMES!!!!" Or do you think they're being rational about the fact that they have slim to no chance of contending?

I didn't know the Royals had a core that won the World Series in the past 20 years. Plus the Royals' fancy new off-season acquisition is going to be suspended for HGH use.

Do you think rational Sox fans are sitting around thinking of more ways to compare us to the Royals, or maybe its just the manic depressives?

P.S., nowhere do I ever say that the Sox have a real good shot at contending with the Tigers next year. Hell, if the season started today, it would probably be a coin flip between Boston and Detroit for the World Series. That said, I'm not going to panic just because the Tigers made a good move. The play-offs are still 162 games away and it wouldn't be terribly shocking if Detroit struggled and the Sox didn't.

spiffie
12-05-2007, 03:57 PM
I didn't know the Royals had a core that won the World Series in the past 20 years. Plus the Royals' fancy new off-season acquisition is going to be suspended for HGH use.

Do you think rational Sox fans are sitting around thinking of more ways to compare us to the Royals, or maybe its just the manic depressives?
We have a core that's done that? By the beginning of the season it is very possible this may be the list of guys left from the 2005 team:

AJ
Konerko
Dye
Buehrle
Contreras

At that point, when you're at 5 out of 25 guys, I don't really see there being much point to invoking the 2005 team as a proof that this team will be good.

(edit: I was thinking about the opening day 2005 roster. Yes, Jenks did appear late in the year and during the playoffs. But Jose Contreras may actually have died last year and just not accepted it yet, so I think the 5 out of 25 still stands :) )

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 03:58 PM
I didn't know the Royals had a core that won the World Series in the past 20 years. Plus the Royals' fancy new off-season acquisition is going to be suspended for HGH use.

Do you think rational Sox fans are sitting around thinking of more ways to compare us to the Royals, or maybe its just the manic depressives?

What's this World series core?

Dye, Konerko, Pierzynski, Jenks, Burly, and Contreras are all that remain

That's hardly a WS core...

I'm not comparing us to the Royals, per se. What I'm saying is that acting like we have more than a slim to none chance of winning a world championship in 2008 seems pretty silly to me. It's about as silly as if I went to an Orioles board and saw them talking about how "The Red Sox are just a lot of impressive sounding names! Sure they look good on paper, but who's to say we can't contend! And anyway, they could get injured! That's why they play the games!"

I hardly think we're doomed...I think with some smart moves we could be ready to contend in 09, and I think Kenny is definitely capable of making those moves. However, I think this "we could still win it this year, remember 05!!!!" talk is misleading, illogical, and poorly founded

nccwsfan
12-05-2007, 03:59 PM
Hyperbole is fun.

Do you think at Royals boards they're saying "JEEZ I mean, THAT'S WHY THEY PLAY THE GAMES!!!!" Or do you think they're being rational about the fact that they have slim to no chance of contending?

In 06' most everyone agreed that the White Sox would win the AL Central.
In 07' most everyone agreed that the Tigers would win the AL Central.

Neither one happened because what looks good on paper in December isn't always what happens on the field. The Tigers, even with their killer offense, still have to play in the toughest division in baseball with some pretty darn good starting pitchers. Aside from Verlander and Zumaya they have varying question marks with their pitching. Injuries can happen, etc.

The Indians haven't been too consistent either. Not likely that they'll fall to earth, but the same thing was said in 06'. The Twins? We don't know yet but if Santana is traded the dynamic of that team has changed.

The time is now for KW to start fixing this team, but I'm hardly ready to concede a damn thing to any team in the Central. If it's myopia so be it.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 04:02 PM
In 06' most everyone agreed that the White Sox would win the AL Central.
In 07' most everyone agreed that the Tigers would win the AL Central.

Neither one happened because what looks good on paper in December isn't always what happens on the field. The Tigers, even with their killer offense, still have to play in the toughest division in baseball with some pretty darn good starting pitchers. Aside from Verlander and Zumaya they have varying question marks with their pitching. Injuries can happen, etc.

The Indians haven't been too consistent either. Not likely that they'll fall to earth, but the same thing was said in 06'. The Twins? We don't know yet but if Santana is traded the dynamic of that team has changed.

The time is now for KW to start fixing this team, but I'm hardly ready to concede a damn thing to any team in the Central. If it's myopia so be it.

This is sophistry. Neither the 06 Sox nor the 07 Tigers looked nearlry as dominant as this Tigers team

Plus you're shifting the argument--nowhere am I saying the Tigers are unbeatable. I think it's quite possible the Indians win the division again. My argument is that the disparity in talent between the Tigers and the White Sox make it seem silly to think we can beat both them AND the Indians this year.

Frankly, I don't remember anyone saying that the 06 White Sox were "so much better" than the Indians, nor that the 07 Tigers were SO MUCH BETTER than the Indians. Merely that each respective team looked to be the best in the division by a narrow margin

doublem23
12-05-2007, 04:05 PM
This is sophistry. Neither the 06 Sox nor the 07 Tigers looked nearlry as dominant as this Tigers team

:o:

This is absolutely phenomenal. The '06 Sox, defending world champs, brought back almost the exact same line-up except for the addition of Jim Thome to fill a major hole as DH/left-handed power and Javier Vazquez, to replace Orlando Hernandez in the rotation.

I'm not even going to ****ing bother with this nonsensical garbage if you're going to just make **** up on the fly.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 04:10 PM
:o:

This is absolutely phenomenal. The '06 Sox, defending world champs, brought back almost the exact same line-up except for the addition of Jim Thome to fill a major hole as DH/left-handed power and Javier Vazquez, to replace Orlando Hernandez in the rotation.

I'm not even going to ****ing bother with this nonsensical garbage if you're going to just make **** up on the fly.


Baloney. Remember, though they were the World Champs, the Indians gave us quite a scare and had a younger core than we did that looked to be getting better. They also made a number of good offseason moves.

The 06 White Sox looked really good but the 06 Indians ALSO looked good. No one thought we were going to run away with the division.

I'm not saying the 08 Tigers will either. But what's relevant here is that we're comparing our chances. In terms of competing with the Tigers, the 08 Tigers will probably "run away with the division"--the only difference is the 08 Indians are also going to be quite good.

The point is, the disparity between the White Sox and the Tigers right now is such that it is fair to say that we have very little chance to contend...and then you throw the INDIANS in too!

This is much different from 06 and 07 when the Sox and Tigers were respective favorites to win, but everyone gave the Indians and Indians, respectively, a fighting chance...we are much weaker as a team than either rof the two teams that will win...

Dolanski
12-05-2007, 04:30 PM
In 06' most everyone agreed that the White Sox would win the AL Central.
In 07' most everyone agreed that the Tigers would win the AL Central.

Neither one happened because what looks good on paper in December isn't always what happens on the field. The Tigers, even with their killer offense, still have to play in the toughest division in baseball with some pretty darn good starting pitchers. Aside from Verlander and Zumaya they have varying question marks with their pitching. Injuries can happen, etc.

The Indians haven't been too consistent either. Not likely that they'll fall to earth, but the same thing was said in 06'. The Twins? We don't know yet but if Santana is traded the dynamic of that team has changed.

The time is now for KW to start fixing this team, but I'm hardly ready to concede a damn thing to any team in the Central. If it's myopia so be it.

Amen. I totally agree.

Dolanski
12-05-2007, 04:37 PM
Baloney. Remember, though they were the World Champs, the Indians gave us quite a scare and had a younger core than we did that looked to be getting better. They also made a number of good offseason moves.

The 06 White Sox looked really good but the 06 Indians ALSO looked good. No one thought we were going to run away with the division.

I'm not saying the 08 Tigers will either. But what's relevant here is that we're comparing our chances. In terms of competing with the Tigers, the 08 Tigers will probably "run away with the division"--the only difference is the 08 Indians are also going to be quite good.

The point is, the disparity between the White Sox and the Tigers right now is such that it is fair to say that we have very little chance to contend...and then you throw the INDIANS in too!

This is much different from 06 and 07 when the Sox and Tigers were respective favorites to win, but everyone gave the Indians and Indians, respectively, a fighting chance...we are much weaker as a team than either rof the two teams that will win...

Methinks you are a bit confused.

The Indians haven't won the WS since 1949.

The point people are trying to make that you insist is foolish thinking is that just because you look good in Dec does not guarantee results during the season. Examples were posted of the 06 White Sox and the 07 Tigers. Both teams reloaded in the offseason after great season and both faltered.


The Tigers made a bold move, but considering recent history of bold moves, it may end up biting them in the ass.

Oh, and sophistry? A bit pretentious, aren't we?

getonbckthr
12-05-2007, 04:43 PM
Methinks you are a bit confused.

The Indians haven't won the WS since 1949.

The point people are trying to make that you insist is foolish thinking is that just because you look good in Dec does not guarantee results during the season. Examples were posted of the 06 White Sox and the 07 Tigers. Both teams reloaded in the offseason after great season and both faltered.


The Tigers made a bold move, but considering recent history of bold moves, it may end up biting them in the ass.

Oh, and sophistry? A bit pretentious, aren't we?
Winning 90 games isn't faltering.

soxinem1
12-05-2007, 04:53 PM
Winning 90 games isn't faltering.

When you totally blow a wild card lead and have the second best record in MLB at the ASB, it is.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 04:59 PM
Methinks you are a bit confused.

The Indians haven't won the WS since 1949.

They refers to the White Sox


The point people are trying to make that you insist is foolish thinking is that just because you look good in Dec does not guarantee results during the season. Examples were posted of the 06 White Sox and the 07 Tigers. Both teams reloaded in the offseason after great season and both faltered.
There's a difference between "looking good on paper" and "being realistic about your chances in 08". If it was just us and the Tigers in this division and the Tigers just "looked good on paper" that woudl be one thing. Instead what we have is the Indians "look good on paper", the Tigers "look excellent on paper" and we look "like a great big mess on paper".

Clearly, this doesn't PROVE or GUARANTEE anything, but we should be realistic about our chances. There was no GUARANTEE Minnesota wouldn't compete in 07, but we could say it was likely they wouldn't....and that was all "on paper". The Sox in 08 are, best case scenario, analogous to Minnesota going into 07...and we don't have a Santana or a Mauer...


The Tigers made a bold move, but considering recent history of bold moves, it may end up biting them in the ass."recent history of bold moves"? You mean in GENERAL among all mlb teams :confused: or just the Tigers? :confused:

Anyway--this isn't a very bold move in terms of 08, which is what we're talking about. This trade CAN NOT possibly hurt the Tigers for 08 since none of the players they traded would have made their roster. The only possibly way it could hurt them is if Willis is disastrous, but it's not like they gave up any starting pitching that would have been playing this year--so they have the same options if Willis sucks that they would if they didn't have him at all....Cabrera's not GUARANTEED to be great, but he's as sure a thing as there is...and even if he doesn't meet their expectations, he's still better than their previous LF...oh--and they gave up absolutely no one who would affect them in 08 to get him...

In the long run? This is a huge risk of a trade, but we're talking about 08.


Oh, and sophistry? A bit pretentious, aren't we?I'm not sure what's pretentious about using a relevant word....especially from the guy who used "methinks" in his post. GMAMFB

AZChiSoxFan
12-05-2007, 05:02 PM
I remember reading a bunch of postings like this one on WSI. Full of doom and gloom and pessimism. People wanting to jump off bridges, etc.

When were those posts?

2004-2005 offseason.

Relax. The Tigers gave away the store today. We didn't, thank goodness.

:rolleyes:

1) The Tigers had a store to give away, the Sox didn't.

2) So your point is that while the Tigers will be a great team from 2008 - 2011, at least they will suck from 2012 on.

3) The Tigers and Indians were crap teams heading into 2005 and everyone knew it.

None of points 1 - 3 above bring me any satisfaction.

Dolanski
12-05-2007, 07:05 PM
"recent history of bold moves"? You mean in GENERAL among all mlb teams :confused: or just the Tigers? :confused:

Anyway--this isn't a very bold move in terms of 08, which is what we're talking about. This trade CAN NOT possibly hurt the Tigers for 08 since none of the players they traded would have made their roster. The only possibly way it could hurt them is if Willis is disastrous, but it's not like they gave up any starting pitching that would have been playing this year--so they have the same options if Willis sucks that they would if they didn't have him at all....Cabrera's not GUARANTEED to be great, but he's as sure a thing as there is...and even if he doesn't meet their expectations, he's still better than their previous LF...oh--and they gave up absolutely no one who would affect them in 08 to get him...

In the long run? This is a huge risk of a trade, but we're talking about 08.



Recent history of bold moves refers to big time trades that have happened in recent MLB years. I mentioned the 06 Sox (Thome), but you can apply that to the 07 Tigers (Sheffield), the 04 Red Sox (Schilling, one that did pay off), and 03? Yankees (ARod).

My point here was that making a trade for a big time player has show in recent years to not guarantee anything. ARod is the "greatest player to ever set foot on a baseball field" and he has not brought any championships to any team he has ever played for.

I think the best analogy for what the Tigers did is what the White Sox did by bringing Thome and Vasquez in two season ago. We were shoo-ins for the playoffs. We had a 5th starter that could be an 1 or 2 on other teams and added 40 HR 120 RBI to our lineup. Everyone just had to stay healthy and play as well as the season before...oh wait, that didn't happen and the Sox missed the playoffs.

If they miss the playoffs, the trade is a disaster. They mortgaged tomorrow to win today. If they don't win, they have failed.

All in all, I am sick of the doom and gloom that so many people bring around here. Rather than piss and moan about how awful we are and how the season is already over, have some faith.

And if you can't have any, then keep it to yourself.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 07:20 PM
Recent history of bold moves refers to big time trades that have happened in recent MLB years. I mentioned the 06 Sox (Thome), but you can apply that to the 07 Tigers (Sheffield), the 04 Red Sox (Schilling, one that did pay off), and 03? Yankees (ARod).

My point here was that making a trade for a big time player has show in recent years to not guarantee anything. ARod is the "greatest player to ever set foot on a baseball field" and he has not brought any championships to any team he has ever played for.

This is irrelevant--A-Rod has been a sure thing: he gave all his team exactly what they could expect. What they do with the players around him is their responsibility. The Tigers put one of the best hitters in baseball in a lineup that was already playoff caliber....This is hardly a "risk"


I think the best analogy for what the Tigers did is what the White Sox did by bringing Thome and Vasquez in two season ago. We were shoo-ins for the playoffs. We had a 5th starter that could be an 1 or 2 on other teams and added 40 HR 120 RBI to our lineup. Everyone just had to stay healthy and play as well as the season before...oh wait, that didn't happen and the Sox missed the playoffs.The difference, the HUGE difference, is that the White Sox gave up a starting CF for Thome and a starting pitcher and a relief pitcher for Vazquez.

The Tigers gave up NONE of their starting lineup for 07 or their projected starting lineup for 08 for their two players.

That doesn't make the Tigers shoe-ins for anything, but it does make them worlds better than the 08 Sox.


If they miss the playoffs, the trade is a disaster. They mortgaged tomorrow to win today. If they don't win, they have failed.Not really. They'll have 3 more years of one of the best young players in baseball to show for it. Oh, and a 25 year-old starting pitcher who 2 years ago was 2nd in Cy Young voting...


All in all, I am sick of the doom and gloom that so many people bring around here. Rather than piss and moan about how awful we are and how the season is already over, have some faith.

And if you can't have any, then keep it to yourself.
I have plenty of faith in Kenny's ability to make this team decent. We should be around .500 in 08, which would be an improvement. If he makes smart moves (And I think he will) we have a serious possibility of competing in 09.

However, it's hardly doom and gloom to say we are a distant 3rd (at BEST) in terms of quality of team in the AL Central. And it's hardly doom and gloom to say that because of the disparity between the quality of our team and the quality of the top 2 teams in our division, it's completely unrealistic to have any expectation of playoff contention for 2008.

Could many key contributors for both the Indians and Tigers crash and burn, get injured, get indicted, etc? Could many key contributors for the Sox have beyond-our-wildest-dreams breakout and career years?

Sure, I guess...but it's really quite unlikely...

getonbckthr
12-05-2007, 07:34 PM
And if you can't have any, then keep it to yourself.
So either we should blindly accept it or keep our mouths shut?

MetroPD
12-05-2007, 07:55 PM
A lot of other teams have accomplished more with less talent than what we've currently got. To give up the ship, is ridiculous.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 09:34 PM
A lot of other teams have accomplished more with less talent than what we've currently got. To give up the ship, is ridiculous.

There's a difference b/t giving up the ship and having reasonable expectations.

It seems unreasonable to except us to even begin to contend NEXT YEAR. In 09, I think we have a fighting chance, given that the youngsters who make up so many key components of our roster will have enough experience under their belt to be relied upon...but next year? Very very doubtful

DSpivack
12-05-2007, 10:09 PM
There's a difference b/t giving up the ship and having reasonable expectations.

It seems unreasonable to except us to even begin to contend NEXT YEAR. In 09, I think we have a fighting chance, given that the youngsters who make up so many key components of our roster will have enough experience under their belt to be relied upon...but next year? Very very doubtful

That is how it should be; except for Sox fans, people think it unreasonable that the White Sox will compete in 2008.:cool:

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 10:17 PM
That is how it should be; except for Sox fans, people think it unreasonable that the White Sox will compete in 2008.:cool:

touche:D:

BadBobbyJenks
12-05-2007, 10:40 PM
Mu6TVmYnSG0
all this hostility, this might cheer you up

Nellie_Fox
12-06-2007, 12:11 AM
So either we should blindly accept it or keep our mouths shut?No, but could you maybe try to not go absolutely spasmodic before the winter meetings are even over?

CubKilla
12-06-2007, 12:15 AM
And if you can't have any, then keep it to yourself.

Kinda goes against the purpose of a messageboard doesn't it?

Noneck
12-06-2007, 08:51 AM
I think about the current Sox situation and it is kinda bleak. They have very few players of any worth to use in trades and are unwilling or unable to spend what it takes to corral FA's. Also the minor team system is weak currently.

Do I blame Williams? I can only possibly blame him for letting the minor league system get as weak as it has and maybe that is a money issue which he may have no control over.

Williams can't make something out of nothing, OK he did it once but I can't blame him if he can't do it again.

whitesox901
12-08-2007, 03:48 PM
Meh. Who knows. Baseball is a crazy game. I thought we were gonna be middle of the pack before '05, and so did most everybody else. Paulie, Dye, and Thome have the years they are capable of, Feilds hits his potential, and the kiddos pitch pretty good, anything can happen. Plus, we aren't done, and there are some pretty good players out there.

Hey didn't the Tigers get worse last year after they got a big name (Sheffield)? Didn't the Yankees STOP losing titles as soon as they started going after the big name guys? A few smart (seemingly small) moves are better than the proverbial "big splash."

Someone with some sense, Im not worried about detriot, sure, they got that killer offense, but look at the pitching, now i know im gonna get **** for this. but come' on the rotation (projected): Verlander, Willis, Rogers, Robertson, Bonderman. Willis had a pretty bad year last year with a 5.00 ERA and a losing record, he isnt the same after 05'. Rogers is coming off an injury and his age isnt helping. Robertson and Bonderman were 2006 one year wonders. And look at the bullpen! Seay was the only one with an ERA under 4.00, and its not a todd jones save without giving up three runs. Sure detriot will score 5+ runs a game, but the pitching will give up 7+. whats that smell, smells like 2006 white sox baseball in detriot

jabrch
12-08-2007, 03:54 PM
Willis had a pretty bad year last year with a 5.00 ERA and a losing record,

And moving from the NL and Florida to the AL and Detroit won't help him get better... I'd be very surprised if he opens the season still on their roster. I'd be happy if he does, but I'd be very surprised. Other than a funky delivery, he's just not too good.

jabrch
12-08-2007, 03:58 PM
There's a difference b/t giving up the ship and having reasonable expectations.

And there is a difference between reasonable expectations and predicting the worst of possible scenarios (which is what much of last year was) happening again that everyone was so unproductive.

And there is a difference between reasonable expectations and assuming that no good moves will be made between December 8th and Opening Day that will improve the club.

And there is a difference between reasonable expectations and not expecting anyone to outperform either career norms or rebound from career lows.


I don't think there is anything reasonabler in saying we have no chance in 2008 on December 8, 2007.

fquaye149
12-08-2007, 04:05 PM
I don't think there is anything reasonabler in saying we have no chance in 2008 on December 8, 2007.

I think you're absolutely insane then. I'm really curious where we're going to make up 20 wins. Regression to the mean should account for about 5...and that's not counting Garland's absence.

So where's the contention in 08 coming from? Fukodome or Rowand? Unlikely.

Unless you think we can land Bedard, Rowand, and Roberts, I don't see where 15 wins are coming from in 08

jabrch
12-08-2007, 04:10 PM
Regression to the mean should account for about 5...

I don't see any reason to believe that this team, if you add in a Fukudome or something, can't win 90 games. If everyone performs at least to their 3 year averages and a few guys have great seasons, it is possible.

Will it? Maybe or maybe not. But there it is hardly reasonable to say that there is no way. That's nothing short of worst case scenario and pessimism.

fquaye149
12-08-2007, 04:12 PM
I don't see any reason to believe that this team, if you add in a Fukudome or something, can't win 90 games. If everyone performs at least to their 3 year averages and a few guys have great seasons, it is possible.

Will it? Maybe or maybe not. But there it is hardly reasonable to say that there is no way. That's nothing short of worst case scenario and pessimism.


Really? I mean...REALLY? You don't see why they can't?

We have 6-7 holes in our pitching staff, 3 big holes in our rotation and 3 or 4 holes in our bullpen, and a huge hole in the leadoff spot, and that's IF (and only if) we sign Fukodome and Konerko, Dye, and Thome's slight decline in 2007 wasn't a result of aging and just a result of "having a bad year"

But I'm willing to grant that those if's will come true--it doesn't solve the incredibly dismal problem of our pitching staff (in 08...I think our pitching staff could be quite good in 09 as the young arms develop).

spiffie
12-08-2007, 04:23 PM
I don't see any reason to believe that this team, if you add in a Fukudome or something, can't win 90 games. If everyone performs at least to their 3 year averages and a few guys have great seasons, it is possible.

Will it? Maybe or maybe not. But there it is hardly reasonable to say that there is no way. That's nothing short of worst case scenario and pessimism.
The problem is for the Sox to win 90 games, even if you add a Rowand or a Fukudome is that EVERYONE needs to perform above their career averages, and NO ONE can underperform. We need 3 pitchers to ALL post great years when it seems unlikely more than one of them, we need a fourth pitcher to keep building on his best year in the last 5 years. We need at least 4 bullpen arms to give us their best years. And with all that, it still might only be enough for third place in the division.

I'm not going to say it is impossible for the Sox to win in 2008. Everything could break right. Our divisional opponents could have terrible years of injuries and slumps. Nothing is impossible.

But I think that when you look at the overall picture, and see how many times in a row you have to flip the coin and have it come up heads that the task is far more daunting than you make it out to be.

Also, I think you overstate to a degree how below their norms our guys were last year:

Konerko - 2007 OPS: 841 Career OPS: 848
Dye - 2007 OPS: 803 Career OPS: 823
Thome - 2007 OPS: 973 Career OPS: 974
Pierzynski - 2007 OPS: 712 Career OPS: 758

When comparing Crede and Fields, Crede's career OPS was 751 and his career-best OPS was 828. Fields put up a 788 last year.

The problem is we're judging the offense on what they did in 2006, which was for many of them their best year in a long time. It was Thome's best year since 2002. It was Dye's best year in his career. It was Konerko's best year of his career. So when people talk about what they expect out of the offense, I fear that they aren't looking at them and hoping they put up career norms, but what they saw in 2006, which was their best years ever. And that's not likely to happen again in 2008.

I guess I just see this team as needing at least 12-16 guys to perform above their career bests, and everyone else to be at least career bests. We need 3-5 of them to blow away all previous expectations and shock everyone in the world. Once you're getting into those odds, to me that's like saying I won't go to a Sox game because there's a 3% chance of rain that might wash out the game. Sure, it could happen, but to plan for that 3% chance, instead of for the 97% chance just seems like poor decision making.

At that point I'd rather not sign either of the CF to a long term deal, give our in house kids a full year to see what they can do, and start looking towards 2009. And if everyone of them decides to kick ass and take names in 2008, awesome, then maybe at the trade deadline you use that money you saved and put it towards any deadline deals that might help them.

fquaye149
12-08-2007, 04:33 PM
I hardly think it's impossible...but it's possible the same way it's possible for Danks to win the Cy Young this year...

Tragg
12-08-2007, 04:43 PM
I think if Danks and Floyd become competent pitchers (say, sub 4.5 ERA) this team can win 83 games. 83 won't win anything, but it is a competitive team, it preserves the young talent, preserves the attendance and might allow a midseason deal of some sort. The way to beat Cleveland and Detroit is to out pitch them. Let Detroit have Willis.
One thing it has right now is the best bench the Sox have had in ages: Fields, Owens, Uribe.
I'd like to see them sign Fududome. I'd pass on Rowand

This is what I would do

2B Richar
SS Cabrera
RF Dye
DH Thome
1B Konerko
C AJ
LF Quinton
3B Crede
CF Anderson

This a solid team defensively. The key offensively is Richar, who has plate discipline instincts and 15-20 HR power, a nice touch in the leadoff spot. Good bench that's even better if we sign Fukodome

I've always liked Dye at 3 - just personal preference.

SBSoxFan
12-08-2007, 09:01 PM
I think if Danks and Floyd become competent pitchers (say, sub 4.5 ERA) this team can win 83 games. 83 won't win anything, but it is a competitive team, it preserves the young talent, preserves the attendance and might allow a midseason deal of some sort. The way to beat Cleveland and Detroit is to out pitch them. Let Detroit have Willis.
One thing it has right now is the best bench the Sox have had in ages: Fields, Owens, Uribe.
I'd like to see them sign Fududome. I'd pass on Rowand

This is what I would do

2B Richar
SS Cabrera
RF Dye
DH Thome
1B Konerko
C AJ
LF Quinton
3B Crede
CF Anderson

This a solid team defensively. The key offensively is Richar, who has plate discipline instincts and 15-20 HR power, a nice touch in the leadoff spot. Good bench that's even better if we sign Fukodome

I've always liked Dye at 3 - just personal preference.

I agree. Colon is the only FA pitcher who has the stuff to beat them; I'd seriously look at him. Anyone else, like a Clement or Benson, is not worth the investment over the kids.

Frontman
12-08-2007, 09:11 PM
I agree. Colon is the only FA pitcher who has the stuff to beat them; I'd seriously look at him. Anyone else, like a Clement or Benson, is not worth the investment over the kids.

Oh dear God no. Clement hasn't been the same since the White Sox worked his rear over in 2005. Colon I can see interest in, but beyond that? That would be scary.

whitesox901
12-08-2007, 09:34 PM
I agree. Colon is the only FA pitcher who has the stuff to beat them;.

I would want Colon, but sign him for two years with a option for a third, keep it low, but load it with incentives, if he wins so many, or pitches so many innings, and an ERA thats lower, etc.

Jurr
12-09-2007, 08:35 AM
I would want Colon, but sign him for two years with a option for a third, keep it low, but load it with incentives, if he wins so many, or pitches so many innings, and an ERA thats lower, etc.
As pitchers get older (but still have stuff to win), incentive laden contracts are a pipe dream. They have no desire to have to prove themselves, and there are always GM's that will cave in to their contract demands. I would love to get Colon on the cheap, but it ain't happenin'.

Lip Man 1
12-09-2007, 12:44 PM
Tragg:

Just FYI, Kenny has twice now been directly quoted as saying if the Sox keep Crede, Fields will be back in Triple AAA playing every day. Kenny said he will not be sitting on the bench or playing left field.

Lip