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soxyess
12-04-2007, 07:16 PM
We are going to be an afterthought in our division. There is no way that we can compete with the Tigers. I cant believe KW let this one get away!! We have to start questioning his ability to aquire difference makers. How can anyone with a straight face look at our roster and the Tiger's roster and say that we can compete with that team for the division. Not to mention the Indians and Twins. For a team thats two years removed from the WS, I cant believe that we have fallen so fast. Someone has to be held accountable for this mess!! I cant tell you how disappointed I am as a life long fan!!:(::(:

chisoxmike
12-04-2007, 07:19 PM
:barney&sham

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 07:21 PM
We are going to be an afterthought in our division. There is no way that we can compete with the Tigers. I cant believe KW let this one get away!! We have to start questioning his ability to aquire difference makers. How can anyone with a straight face look at our roster and the Tiger's roster and say that we can compete with that team for the division. Not to mention the Indians and Twins. For a team thats two years removed from the WS, I cant believe that we have fallen so fast. Someone has to be held accountable for this mess!! I cant tell you how disappointed I am as a life long fan!!:(::(:
Kenny threw a great offer at Hunter, Anaheim grossly over paid. Kenny offered a huge package for Cabrera, Detroit offered one that no one could match. Kenny has done all that he could to get these 2 it didnt work out in our favor unfortunately. Don't hang this on Kenny.

Juice16
12-04-2007, 07:24 PM
Kenny threw a great offer at Hunter, Anaheim grossly over paid. Kenny offered a huge package for Cabrera, Detroit offered one that no one could match. Kenny has done all that he could to get these 2 it didnt work out in our favor unfortunately. Don't hang this on Kenny.

Meanwhile we are losing out on our targets. The comfort of not overpaying for a guy or putting together a package that almost gets a guy is not going to win us games.

DumpJerry
12-04-2007, 07:25 PM
We are going to be an afterthought in our division. There is no way that we can compete with the Tigers. I cant believe KW let this one get away!! We have to start questioning his ability to aquire difference makers. How can anyone with a straight face look at our roster and the Tiger's roster and say that we can compete with that team for the division. Not to mention the Indians and Twins. For a team thats two years removed from the WS, I cant believe that we have fallen so fast. Someone has to be held accountable for this mess!! I cant tell you how disappointed I am as a life long fan!!:(::(:
It's not as bad as you're making it out to be. As some correctly pointed out in the other threads, M. Cabrera was not really filling our most pressing needs: a Cfer and Bullpen help. He only popped up on our radar in the last 24 hours because a reporter (who referred to "Geo" Gonzalez and a righty John Danks) said Cabrera wants to play with Ozzie. If it weren't for that article, we would not have cared that we "lost" him.

We should celebrate. The Kitties gave up 6 prospects to a NL team that we won't have to worry about. Willis is not the Willis of '03 and he's in the AL now.

soxyess
12-04-2007, 07:25 PM
I will hang it on Kenny cause he was in charge when we assembled the worse minor league system in the majors. Kenny allowed our system to be depleted, and was in charge when we drafted all the players in our farm system. Our major league team is old, and our minor leagues are bad. Thats a terrible combination.

Hunker down
12-04-2007, 07:25 PM
I here that Carlos May and B B Richards are still available. Lets wait and see what Kenny pulls off before opening day. Tigers pull a quick one on everybody, I never heard their name mentioned at all.

LITTLE NELL
12-04-2007, 07:27 PM
I think Detroit gave up way too much for a guy that can walk next year. Lets keep Fields and Gio et al and sign Rowand or Jones.

soxyess
12-04-2007, 07:27 PM
It's not as bad as you're making it out to be. As some correctly pointed out in the other threads, M. Cabrera was not really filling our most pressing needs: a Cfer and Bullpen help. He only popped up on our radar in the last 24 hours because a reporter (who referred to "Geo" Gonzalez and a righty John Danks) said Cabrera wants to play with Ozzie. If it weren't for that article, we would not have cared that we "lost" him.

We should celebrate. The Kitties gave up 6 prospects to a NL team that we won't have to worry about. Willis is not the Willis of '03 and he's in the AL now.
Those are lame excuses. We just missed out on one of top players in the game who is only 24 YEARS OLD!!!! Not only that he's going to be in our division on a team thats already better than us.

angiew
12-04-2007, 07:28 PM
I have to agree with getonbckthr. Kenny made generous offers and was stepped over for better ones....ridiculous ones IMO. It's not like he's just setting back on his ass and watching them all sign elsewhere. But don't get me wrong, I do feel your frustration Juice16:dunno:

soxyess
12-04-2007, 07:30 PM
I have to agree with getonbckthr. Kenny made generous offers and was stepped over for better ones....ridiculous ones IMO. It's not like he's just setting back on his ass and watching them all sign elsewhere. But don't get me wrong, I do feel your frustration Juice16:dunno:

Why are the offers better? Cause they had better players in their system. Who's fault is that? KW. Everyone we need to demand better from this guy and the organization!!

DumpJerry
12-04-2007, 07:32 PM
I think Detroit gave up way too much for a guy that can walk next year. Lets keep Fields and Gio et al and sign Rowand or Jones.
Ahhh....the Voice of Reason!

DumpJerry
12-04-2007, 07:33 PM
Why are the offers better? Cause they had better players in their system. Who's fault is that? KW. Everyone we need to demand better from this guy and the organization!!
...and now they dont' have them. The Tigers gave away the store on this one. If I was a Tigers' fan, I'd be pissed off.

russ99
12-04-2007, 07:34 PM
Why are the offers better? Cause they had better players in their system. Who's fault is that? KW. Everyone we need to demand better from this guy and the organization!!

Um, Kenny got us a ring. The Tigers ain't got squat yet.

Big whoop. I'll wait to see how the rest of the offseason plays out before casting huge blame at Kenny.

I'd also rather keep Fields and Gio rather than making a big splash on a guy who could walk to the Yankees/Red Sox/Mets, etc. in a year.

Also, Kenny's not they guy setting the signing budget, plus the Sox have done well recently = lower picks. Don't blame Kenny for a poor farm system. And really it's just the hitters. We have some really nice pitching prospects.

soxyess
12-04-2007, 07:35 PM
...and now they dont' have them. The Tigers gave away the store on this one. If I was a Tigers' fan, I'd be pissed off.

When they win the WS for the next couple of years im sure their fans will be so ticked!! Meanwhile we'll be stacked with talent in our system.

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 07:36 PM
...and now they dont' have them. The Tigers gave away the store on this one. If I was a Tigers' fan, I'd be pissed off.
Not if you win back to back World Series titles you won't be. They are primed (sure anything can happen) to do just that.

stillz
12-04-2007, 07:37 PM
The Kitties overpaid. Oh well. Let's sign Rowand.

angiew
12-04-2007, 07:37 PM
...and now they dont' have them. The Tigers gave away the store on this one. If I was a Tigers' fan, I'd be pissed off.

EXACTLY!!!!!

ChiSoxIn06
12-04-2007, 07:38 PM
The Kitties overpaid. Oh well. Let's sign Rowand.

so then we can say we overpaid too? yeah thats a good idea

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 07:39 PM
The Kitties overpaid. Oh well. Let's sign Rowand.
Overpaid yes. Will it payoff, most likely. Sign Rowand, will signing Rowand put us in the 97+ win category? No it won't but thats what it will take to contend. Save the money and start developing the young guys.

SoxGirl4Life
12-04-2007, 07:45 PM
I will hang it on Kenny cause he was in charge when we assembled the worse minor league system in the majors.

That's fine as long as you remember to hang the World Series on Kenny too.

Sometimes I think people have forgotten how DAMN long it had been since the Sox actually won a WS. And how we all wanted "Just one, PLEASE, just one World Series and I'll be happy". And now, you guys are crucifying everything Kenny does or doesn't do. I, for one, certainly don't think its because he's not trying.

Chicken Dinner
12-04-2007, 07:50 PM
The farm system really isn't in that bad of shape. Yes, it doesn't have a bunch of MLB ready players in it today, but in a year it will be ready to pick the fruit.

SilentH131
12-04-2007, 07:51 PM
Ahhh....the Voice of Reason!

The voice of reason would reason that if KW makes a deal for Cabrera then neither Cabrera or maybe even Willis go to Detriot. Even if Willis winds up going to Detriot in less of a deal we would have Cabrera;the more valuable asset. Remember the White Sox only wanted Cabrera and they have enough to give up to get him alone, prospects and they are just that prospects;Cabrera is the real deal. Also keep in mind this is our division opponent who is already better then us. The bar needs to be set high for this team that is two years removed from a World Series

eastchicagosoxfan
12-04-2007, 07:52 PM
That's fine as long as you remember to hang the World Series on Kenny too.

Sometimes I think people have forgotten how DAMN long it had been since the Sox actually won a WS. And how we all wanted "Just one, PLEASE, just one World Series and I'll be happy". And now, you guys are crucifying everything Kenny does or doesn't do. I, for one, certainly don't think its because he's not trying.

Well put!!!!

It's Time
12-04-2007, 07:53 PM
Overpaid? LOL! If the White Sox had just acquired Willis and Cabrera, no one on this board would say they overpaid. There would be dancing banana's all over the place.:cool:

JB98
12-04-2007, 07:54 PM
Overpaid? LOL! If the White Sox had just acquired Willis and Cabrera, no one on this board would say they overpaid. There would be dancing banana's all over the place.:cool:

No question. I think the Tigers made a great deal. Who wouldn't want Cabrera and Willis?

eastchicagosoxfan
12-04-2007, 07:55 PM
[quote=soxyess;1738193]We are going to be an afterthought in our division. There is no way that we can compete with the Tigers. I cant believe KW let this one get away!! We have to start questioning his ability to aquire difference makers. How can anyone with a straight face look at our roster and the Tiger's roster and say that we can compete with that team for the division. Not to mention the Indians and Twins. For a team thats two years removed from the WS, I cant believe that we have fallen so fast. Someone has to be held accountable for this mess!! I cant tell you how disappointed I am as a life long fan!!:(::(:[/quote

Trump is trump. What were the Sox to do? Add in another player? And if the Tiger's matched? Throw in one more? The Sox made a good offer. Someone made a better one, and it was time to fold. Time to move on too.

veeter
12-04-2007, 07:58 PM
I will hang it on Kenny cause he was in charge when we assembled the worse minor league system in the majors. Kenny allowed our system to be depleted, and was in charge when we drafted all the players in our farm system. Our major league team is old, and our minor leagues are bad. Thats a terrible combination.Stop, just stop.

WhiteSox5187
12-04-2007, 07:58 PM
Essentially, the Tigers gave up a lot of future for some present. This trade DOES make the Tigers a lot better (face it if we made this trade we'd all be bouncing off the walls now) but just because they have a good team on paper doesn't mean anything, you still have to play the games. I'm not ready to give up on 2008 by any means.

HawkDJ
12-04-2007, 07:58 PM
Agree with the majority here. I'm not sure what more KW could've offered than Fields,Danks and Gonzalez unless he threw in DLS as well, which would be utterly ridiculous.

DumpJerry
12-04-2007, 07:59 PM
Not if you win back to back World Series titles you won't be. They are primed (sure anything can happen) to do just that.
They have yet to win one World Series in recent times. Remember 2006? The Tigers won the World Series according to anyone who was watching baseball. It was a can't miss proposition.

Then they played a NL team that won 83 regular season games and stunk up the place more than a single A team playing the Red Sox.

UserNameBlank
12-04-2007, 08:00 PM
The Good News:

1. We didn't lose any solid young players.
2. We picked up Quentin and have a potential young stud ready for next year.
3. We haven't overpayed for a CF.
4. Fields in the Cell will hit more home runs than Miguel will in Detroit.
5. The spectacular weight of the sheer awesomeness of the Tigers' batting order being all concentrated in one baseball stadium may cause Comerica Park to collapse upon itself and disappear into an unknown universe, leaving the AL Central to be fought over by only four teams. This makes winning the division easier for the Sox.
6. KC, Minnesota, and Cleveland should lose more games.
7. The fact that players Detroit has gone over slot to sign have been used for additions we can not make should open Reinsdorf's eyes to the reality that is the value of top prospects.
8. As of right now, the top two of our rotation is better than 4/5ths of Detroit's rotation.
9. Andrew Miller is gone.
10. Hawk is in our TV booth.


The Bad News:

1. We didn't have many solid young players to begin with.
2. Quentin is a project.
3. Jerry Owens doesn't exactly look like a world beater.
4. Cabrera is better than Fields in every other aspect of the game expect for speed and salary.
5. That's not going to happen.
6. So will we.
7. Uncle Jerry doesn't care. We'll still draft picks we can sign within suggested parameters as long as they don't have a big meany for an agent.
8. Verlander is better than anything we have.
9. We hit that guy pretty hard and he looks like he's going to blow out his arm one of these days.
10. We'll get to hear him rant on about how much he loves the entire Tigers roster at least three separate times per game over the course of our next 162.

Chicken Dinner
12-04-2007, 08:04 PM
Good news: Jones is still they're closer. :D:

JB98
12-04-2007, 08:05 PM
Good news: Jones is still they're closer. :D:

Yeah, their bullpen sucks. That's the good news. The bad news is, our does too.

SilentH131
12-04-2007, 08:06 PM
Agree with the majority here. I'm not sure what more KW could've offered than Fields,Danks and Gonzalez unless he threw in DLS as well, which would be utterly ridiculous.

Alright that's fine just let a division opponent out do you, this is the second time this season the White Sox have lost out on a star player. Kenny talks a big game, but can't pull the trigger. If there not willing to make big moves when teams we need to keep up with in our divison are, then what good are we. Raise the bar on your team

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 08:06 PM
Good news: Jones is still they're closer. :D:
With that lineup and staff how many opportunities will he get?

champagne030
12-04-2007, 08:08 PM
Agree with the majority here. I'm not sure what more KW could've offered than Fields,Danks and Gonzalez unless he threw in DLS as well, which would be utterly ridiculous.

I heard on my way home that Detroit completed a deal for Cabrera and Willis. I haven't read anything other than this thread. Did Kenny really offer Danks, Fields and Gio for Cabrera? :o:

UserNameBlank
12-04-2007, 08:10 PM
Agree with the majority here. I'm not sure what more KW could've offered than Fields,Danks and Gonzalez unless he threw in DLS as well, which would be utterly ridiculous.
I don't think so.

I would've offered Jenks, Fields, Anderson/Sweeney, Danks/Gio, Broadway/Egbert, any tradeable RP in the organization, and Shelby/Gomes/Orlando for Cabrera and Willis.

You can make a legitimate argument that considering age and cost, Miguel Cabrera is the most valuable hitter in the American League. Probably the most valuable player in the AL as well, as even Santana only pitches every five days.

This one hurts. If we sign Rowand it will only salt the wound.

Frank the Tank
12-04-2007, 08:11 PM
Kenny threw a great offer at Hunter, Anaheim grossly over paid. Kenny offered a huge package for Cabrera, Detroit offered one that no one could match. Kenny has done all that he could to get these 2 it didnt work out in our favor unfortunately. Don't hang this on Kenny.

At what point does one need to accept the realities of the free agent market and come to grips with the fact that top tier players are going to warrant top tier deals? Where does "waiting for the budget friendly deal to come along" leave us? We had flaws with the 2007 team, and it appears they will remain next year. True, maybe we would have overpaid for for Hunter and Cabrera, but isn't that the cost of trying to win?

One might say Detroit and Anaheim overpaid, but maybe they just care more about winning.

Lip Man 1
12-04-2007, 08:13 PM
Good points.

And what really adds salt to the wound is that Dave Dombrowski is a Sox fan who grew up in the city and worked in the organization until Hawk fired him.

THAT really hurts.

Lip

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 08:15 PM
At what point does one need to accept the realities of the free agent market and come to grips with the fact that top tier players are going to warrant top tier deals? Where does "waiting for the budget friendly deal to come along" leave us? We had flaws with the 2007 team, and it appears they will remain next year. True, maybe we would have overpaid for for Hunter and Cabrera, but isn't that the cost of trying to win?

One might say Detroit and Anaheim overpaid, but maybe they just care more about winning.
Torii Hunter will not be worth the 18 million per season he signed for. Anaheim has money burning their pocket. Best way to avoid a bidding war is to go over everyone else, If KW would have given Hunter 19 a year that would have hurt the team horribly. As far as the trade i'm not sure where we could have made it a better deal than Detroit unless we added say Booby Jenks into the mix.

WhiteSox5187
12-04-2007, 08:17 PM
Good points.

And what really adds salt to the wound is that Dave Dombrowski is a Sox fan who grew up in the city and worked in the organization until Hawk fired him.

THAT really hurts.

Lip
That's what I was thinking. Had David stayed with this organization god only knows how many championships we would have won.

SilentH131
12-04-2007, 08:19 PM
Torii Hunter will not be worth the 18 million per season he signed for. Anaheim has money burning their pocket. Best way to avoid a bidding war is to go over everyone else, If KW would have given Hunter 19 a year that would have hurt the team horribly. As far as the trade i'm not sure where we could have made it a better deal than Detroit unless we added say Booby Jenks into the mix.

It's not your money, why do you care? Demand more of your team

ws05champs
12-04-2007, 08:19 PM
For this to work, Crede would have to have been perfectly healthy, M. Cabrera would have had to be good at left field, Willis would have had to return to his form from 2 years ago and Owens would have had to be good at center and lead off. And Gio Gonzalez would not develop into a great pitcher. A lot of ifs. I'm not unhappy the deal did not go in the direction of the Sox, although I sure would like Kenny to do something good soon.

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 08:20 PM
It's not your money, why do you care? Demand more of your team
Accept the reality that we are not the Red Sox, Yankees or Angels. We actually have a budget we work within. We can't afford to have a payroll 160 million +.

UserNameBlank
12-04-2007, 08:21 PM
It's not your money, why do you care? Demand more of your team
http://index.hu/cikkepek/totalcar/magazin/blog/pictures/2006_11_07_wre.jpg

...getting nowhere fast.

santo=dorf
12-04-2007, 08:22 PM
This "Big Fish" situation reminds me of an old Classic I read in High School.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=5559&d=1196817292

Lip Man 1
12-04-2007, 08:25 PM
Geton:

Your point is well made but what's the alternative?

Rebuild with young talent in the minors? Baseball America according to Phil Rogers is ready to name the Sox as the 29th best (out of 30 teams) minor league system in baseball.

We are between a rock and a hard place and I don't see a way out. If you do I'd love to hear it.

Lip

HawkDJ
12-04-2007, 08:25 PM
Alright that's fine just let a division opponent out do you, this is the second time this season the White Sox have lost out on a star player. Kenny talks a big game, but can't pull the trigger. If there not willing to make big moves when teams we need to keep up with in our divison are, then what good are we. Raise the bar on your team

So we would've traded for 2 years of Cabrera and we better have HOPED we could win a World Series with a rotation that includes 3 empty slots (Contreras, Floyd, ????) since we just traded away all our bargaining chips. In my mind if the Sox made the Fields, Gio, Danks and more (probably at least Broadway) trade our team would look no better than the Tigers without Cabrera. If KW could turn Konerko around for more pitching that might change things, but there is no telling.

champagne030
12-04-2007, 08:26 PM
Accept the reality that we are not the Red Sox, Yankees or Angels. We actually have a budget we work within. We can't afford to have a payroll 160 million +.

Well, it depends on how much Jerry and his group want to profit. We could significantly boost payroll (>25%) and still break even.

itsnotrequired
12-04-2007, 08:27 PM
Good grief, what a ridiculous thread.

SilentH131
12-04-2007, 08:28 PM
Accept the reality that we are not the Red Sox, Yankees or Angels. We actually have a budget we work within. We can't afford to have a payroll 160 million +.

I understand that, but you need to spend money to make. Especially on the southside. If you spend the money the right way, and put a product on the field that people we'll come ot to see this equals more money. If your satisfied with a small market mentality that's fine, but remember the White Sox spent over a 100 million on payroll last year

itsnotrequired
12-04-2007, 08:29 PM
If your satisfied with a small market mentality that's fine, but remember the White Sox spent over a 100 million on payroll last year

So they have a small market mentality yet spend money like a major market?

:kukoo:

Frank the Tank
12-04-2007, 08:30 PM
Accept the reality that we are not the Red Sox, Yankees or Angels. We actually have a budget we work within. We can't afford to have a payroll 160 million +.

What???

We are in the 3rd largest market, have huge TV deals and attendance is adequate. We can spend more. If the Detroit can, why can't we?

drewcifer
12-04-2007, 08:30 PM
I understand that, but you need to spend money to make. Especially on the southside. If you spend the money the right way, and put a product on the field that people we'll come ot to see this equals more money. If your satisfied with a small market mentality that's fine, but remember the White Sox spent over a 100 million on payroll last year

Last I checked, there haven't been problems putting butts in seats, or paying for the increase in ticket prices.

We were a top 5 payroll team last year.

You said "spend the $ the right way". What are you talking about? $90M on Torii Hunter?

HawkDJ
12-04-2007, 08:32 PM
What???

We are in the 3rd largest market, have huge TV deals and attendance is adequate. We can spend more. If the Detroit can, why can't we?


Not that I'm really disagreeing with you but Detroit did spend $13 million less than us last year. We still may end up with a higher payroll this year.

thomas35forever
12-04-2007, 08:33 PM
KW is doing all he can to build a winner. Don't think losing out on a marquee player means we'll suck this coming season. KW proved that in '05. Do you want us to overpay for players who don't play up to their salary? Chances are that will happen sometime over the contract.

beckett21
12-04-2007, 08:35 PM
I think Detroit gave up way too much for a guy that can walk next year. Lets keep Fields and Gio et al and sign Rowand or Jones.

The Tigers have Cabrera for at least two years, not one. He is not a FA until 2010.

Besides, if they need to they can always peddle him for a king's ransom at the 2009 trade deadline. He is the kind of guy that a contender will break the bank for.

Assuming the Tigers are not contenders themselves. Which they will be, more likely than not.

Personally I'd gladly trade untapped, unproven 'potential' for a proven, bona-fide superstar. Jeremy Reed was a budding HOF'er at one time. How's that working out?

Many people seem to share your opinion though.

SilentH131
12-04-2007, 08:39 PM
So they have a small market mentality yet spend money like a major market?

:kukoo:

i'm saying is people can have a small market mentality (as far as fans) reality is we do spend like a major market and should keep willing to so

itsnotrequired
12-04-2007, 08:41 PM
i'm saying is people can have a small market mentality (as far as fans) reality is we do spend like a major market and should keep willing to so

Who cares what the mentality of the fans are? KW sure doesn't and if he does, he should be fired.

Lip Man 1
12-04-2007, 08:44 PM
Dorf:

I must tell you I got a real laugh out of your Hemingway post. And this evening I needed one!

Lip

soxyess
12-04-2007, 08:45 PM
The voice of reason would reason that if KW makes a deal for Cabrera then neither Cabrera or maybe even Willis go to Detriot. Even if Willis winds up going to Detriot in less of a deal we would have Cabrera;the more valuable asset. Remember the White Sox only wanted Cabrera and they have enough to give up to get him alone, prospects and they are just that prospects;Cabrera is the real deal. Also keep in mind this is our division opponent who is already better then us. The bar needs to be set high for this team that is two years removed from a World Series
Outstanding point!!

soxyess
12-04-2007, 08:45 PM
Overpaid? LOL! If the White Sox had just acquired Willis and Cabrera, no one on this board would say they overpaid. There would be dancing banana's all over the place.:cool:

Thats so true!!!

JNS
12-04-2007, 08:46 PM
Who cares what the mentality of the fans are? KW sure doesn't and if he does, he should be fired.

Huh?

This one is tough. 2005 isn't forever. Fugitaboudit.

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 08:46 PM
What has Torii Hunter done in his career to indicate his value to us being at 5 yrs 100 million? Thats what it would have taken to out do the Anaheim offer. Yes we have a big market however we spend responsibly. Your right you have to spend money to make money but how much better of a team would have we had if we gave Hunter 100 million dollars? Maybe 5 wins (and that may be generous).

soxyess
12-04-2007, 08:47 PM
Agree with the majority here. I'm not sure what more KW could've offered than Fields,Danks and Gonzalez unless he threw in DLS as well, which would be utterly ridiculous.

For a player like Cabrerra you keep uping the ante UNTIL YOU GET HIM!!!!

Lip Man 1
12-04-2007, 08:48 PM
Geton:

So again I'm asking. Not trying to be sarcastic just trying to find a solution....if you won't overpay and have little or no minor league system then what's the answer???

How do you get the talent needed to have a shot against the super teams in the toughest league in baseball. Maybe the Twins are on to something...dump every good player for talent, take your time and be ready to explode in two years. (I'd don't like suggesting this but that may be reality.)

Lip

itsnotrequired
12-04-2007, 08:49 PM
For a player like Cabrerra you keep uping the ante UNTIL YOU GET HIM!!!!

The Sox farm system is weak as hell. Trading away whatever potential is down there for a single player, especially with the holes that still exist on the team? Pass...

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 08:50 PM
Geton:

So again I'm asking. Not trying to be sarcastic just trying to find a solution....if you won't overpay and have little or no minor league system then what's the answer???

Lip
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=95323

soxyess
12-04-2007, 08:50 PM
Alright that's fine just let a division opponent out do you, this is the second time this season the White Sox have lost out on a star player. Kenny talks a big game, but can't pull the trigger. If there not willing to make big moves when teams we need to keep up with in our divison are, then what good are we. Raise the bar on your team

This is so true. All we've heard are inuendos from KW and the organization on how we are going to make some big moves this offseason and how we are going to go for it, and we end up losing out on all of them. Does anyone think that all the smoke being blown about aquiring talent is so season tickets can be sold?

Dan Mega
12-04-2007, 08:52 PM
The Sox farm system is weak as hell. Trading away whatever potential is down there for a single player, especially with the holes that still exist on the team? Pass...

Yes. For all of those clamoring about how "Detroit sold the farm!" need to take a step back and realize that Detroit's farm system is still better than the Sox's IMO.

soxyess
12-04-2007, 08:53 PM
I don't think so.

I would've offered Jenks, Fields, Anderson/Sweeney, Danks/Gio, Broadway/Egbert, any tradeable RP in the organization, and Shelby/Gomes/Orlando for Cabrera and Willis.

You can make a legitimate argument that considering age and cost, Miguel Cabrera is the most valuable hitter in the American League. Probably the most valuable player in the AL as well, as even Santana only pitches every five days.

This one hurts. If we sign Rowand it will only salt the wound.

You've hit it right on the nose. How many times do you get to trade for a 24 year old superstar from a team that only wants minor leaguers? I would give 20 minor leaguers to get him!!

JNS
12-04-2007, 08:53 PM
For a player like Cabrerra you keep uping the ante UNTIL YOU GET HIM!!!!

Thank you. All this shoulder shrugging is getting old. It's clearer and clearer that:

-- Players don't really want to come here - it's a fantasy that players will give us a discount.
-- KW and JR aren't willing to do what it takes. It's about winning.

I don't want to hear about 2005 any more. That's over.

Frank the Tank
12-04-2007, 08:54 PM
KW is doing all he can to build a winner. Don't think losing out on a marquee player means we'll suck this coming season. KW proved that in '05. Do you want us to overpay for players who don't play up to their salary? Chances are that will happen sometime over the contract.

Our team, as is, cannot compete in our division. We have a weak farm system. The alternative to not signing marquee players is not much of an alternative in my opinion.

I personally would have traded any prospect or player on our team for M. Cabrera.

itsnotrequired
12-04-2007, 08:55 PM
Yes. For all of those clamoring about how "Detroit sold the farm!" need to take a step back and realize that Detroit's farm system is still better than the Sox's IMO.

For the Sox to have pulled this off, they would have had to offer something like Jenks, Fields, Gio, Egbert, Santos, etc. And people are griping about the state of the farm system NOW? Good grief...

santo=dorf
12-04-2007, 08:56 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=95323
I'm guessing you were one of the first people to run out an buy a bomb shelter once the Y2K bug was brought up.

soxyess
12-04-2007, 08:57 PM
KW is doing all he can to build a winner. Don't think losing out on a marquee player means we'll suck this coming season. KW proved that in '05. Do you want us to overpay for players who don't play up to their salary? Chances are that will happen sometime over the contract.

Stop relying on the 05 formula. Do you know how many factors have to go your way for that formula to succeed? Look at the WS this year. The Rockies were like the 05 sox. What happened to them. Talent wins!!

duke of dorwood
12-04-2007, 08:58 PM
The Williams regime is responsible for this. If we are to rebuild, I certainly dont want him at the controls-we are in limbo-with a team that may flirt with .500 while they get older. All the division games we have in the toughest division, bodes bad. We need 25 career years to be in it-and that aint happening.

UserNameBlank
12-04-2007, 08:58 PM
So they have a small market mentality yet spend money like a major market?

:kukoo:
In some areas we do have a small market mentality. The draft is one. Also our refusal to deal with Borass is more "small market" behavior.

We don't spend like one, but at times we operate like one and that quite frankly makes Kenny's job more difficult.

I think the fact that Kenny wanted wholescale changes in regards to the draft and player development shows that if he worked with the same freedoms that Dombrowski has in Detroit we'd have a much better club and farm system. From what I gather, considering the Sox' budget, the old regime wanted players who would be more likely to make it to the big leagues. Kenny wants potential superstars and is the bigger risk taker.

I don't fault Kenny as much as some do. All GM's make good moves and bad moves, but I think in large part Kenny's hands are tied. He's the one who has to:

A) try to remain competitive at all times like large market teams
B) operate under restrictions that those other large market teams don't have
C) compete with reloaded small market clubs without having the benefit of holding a firesale to start over once something goes wrong

So yes, in a long answer we do have a bit of a small market mentality.

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 08:58 PM
I'm guessing you were one of the first people to run out an buy a bomb shelter once the Y2K bug was brought up.
No but please tell what moves can be made that will enable us to compete in 08? Sorry I have a realistic appraoch opposed to an optimistic one.

itsnotrequired
12-04-2007, 08:58 PM
Thank you. All this shoulder shrugging is getting old. It's clearer and clearer that:

-- Players don't really want to come here - it's a fantasy that players will give us a discount.
-- KW and JR aren't willing to do what it takes. It's about winning.

I don't want to hear about 2005 any more. That's over.

Buehrle took a MASSIVE discount to stay here. At least $20 million. Dye was signed for under market value as well. Vazquez took a pay CUT with his recent extension.

KW's hypnosis skills are truly something to behold...

JNS
12-04-2007, 09:00 PM
For the Sox to have pulled this off, they would have had to offer something like Jenks, Fields, Gio, Egbert, Santos, etc. And people are griping about the state of the farm system NOW? Good grief...

OK, now that that everything is OK, and that all the holes are filled and the fabulous farm system is spilling over with hot prospects, when are the Sox going to compete for the division?

OH, WAIT! Maybe we can can get Rowand! Great! WS here we come!

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 09:01 PM
Buehrle took a MASSIVE discount to stay here. At least $20 million. Dye was signed for under market value as well. Vazquez took a pay CUT with his recent extension.

KW's hypnosis skills are truly something to behold...
Looking at the potential deals for Santana, Haren and Bedard... Burls would have been a 100 million dollar man, at least.

JNS
12-04-2007, 09:02 PM
Buehrle took a MASSIVE discount to stay here. At least $20 million. Dye was signed for under market value as well. Vazquez took a pay CUT with his recent extension.

KW's hypnosis skills are truly something to behold...

Buehrle was told that there would be a massive upgrade. Wonder if he's happy he stayed now.

This is bad - KW talks a good game - so far he's come up with one 25-year-old project. Heck, Cabrera is 24!

Time for a reality check.

itsnotrequired
12-04-2007, 09:03 PM
OK, now that that everything is OK, and that all the holes are filled and the fabulous farm system is spilling over with hot prospects, when are the Sox going to compete for the division?

OH, WAIT! Maybe we can can get Rowand! Great! WS here we come!

KW wasn't done making moves in mid-November, he isn't done now, won't be done in two weeks and won't be done next month. Many people have already come to the "conclusion" that KW is done making moves at various point this offseason. Apparently, your time is now.

soxyess
12-04-2007, 09:03 PM
The Williams regime is responsible for this. If we are to rebuild, I certainly dont want him at the controls-we are in limbo-with a team that may flirt with .500 while they get older. All the division games we have in the toughest division, bodes bad. We need 25 career years to be in it-and that aint happening.

Right ON!!! After "06 I was willing to give KW a chance at getting this team back into the playoffs, and it aint happening anytime soon. WE ARE GOING BACKWARDS!! Not only is the majorleague club old and slow, the minor league system is depleted and bad!

itsnotrequired
12-04-2007, 09:04 PM
Right ON!!! After "06 I was willing to give KW a chance at getting this team back into the playoffs, and it aint happening anytime soon. WE ARE GOING BACKWARDS!! Not only is the majorleague club old and slow, the minor league system is depleted and bad!

The solution is clearly to trade anything left in the minors for a single player.

:rolleyes:

soxyess
12-04-2007, 09:06 PM
Can anyone please tell me what moves KW can make now so that we can contend for a division title?

soxyess
12-04-2007, 09:08 PM
The solution is clearly to trade anything left in the minors for a single player.

:rolleyes:

When the player is a superstar and the minor league players are a crap shoot I'll do that in a minute. Name six prospects to come out of the Sox system that equal Cabrerra?

santo=dorf
12-04-2007, 09:09 PM
No but please tell what moves can be made that will enable us to compete in 08? Sorry I have a realistic appraoch opposed to an optimistic one.
I'm sorry, but Konerko and Dye will have higher trade values AFTER this season and I say that because I expect them to play better than last year. Is it that much of a reach to expect Dye and Konerko to meet those expectations? (barring injuries.)

My plan: It's mostly in my sig, but you dump Hall, Uribe and Crede for whatever.
If anyone offers anything of remote value for Massett, Aardsma, and/or Massett, make the move. They are out of options and a bad spring will make them completely worthless, and a good spring won't completely change their current values.
Sign Andruw Jones to at max, a three year deal.
Get a platoon partner for Pablo in LF (Shawn Green? Jenkins?)
I'd also consider re-signing Iguchi as well.
Sign Freddy Garcia and/or Bartolo Colon to two year deals with a third year deal that has player option that is worth at least $10 million. It's a risky gamble, but the Sox seem more than willing to blow a bunch of cash on Hunter

I don't think it's a world series contending team, but it wouldn't be too bad and the Sox could have some chips at the deadline this year and next if they falter.

Lip Man 1
12-04-2007, 09:09 PM
User:

Your last post does bring up some very, very solid points on things and the 'mentality' for want of a better term in some areas.

Well thought out.

Lip

Frank the Tank
12-04-2007, 09:10 PM
Can anyone please tell me what moves KW can make now so that we can contend for a division title?

He can always acquire some more KC bullpen arms ! :redneck

JNS
12-04-2007, 09:10 PM
KW wasn't done making moves in mid-November, he isn't done now, won't be done in two weeks and won't be done next month. Many people have already come to the "conclusion" that KW is done making moves at various point this offseason. Apparently, your time is now.

Excuse me. Arguably the best player in the AL has just gone to an already very good team in our division, along with a very good pitcher. The Sox have upgraded at shortstop so far.

Of course it isn't over, but please give me a scenario that allows the Sox to compete with the Tigers.

Again, 2005 is fading fast. What does the future hold? If Detroit does win it all, or at least get to the WS (they have a better chance than the Sox IMO, can you argue with that?) will Dombrowski have overpaid then?

Not to worry, KW has plan 3C or 4G to fall back on.

ChiSoxPatF
12-04-2007, 09:11 PM
Depression has definitely set it. I'm not a doom-and-gloomer normally but I really don't see what Kenny can do right now to make us competitive with Detroit... not to mention the Indians or a restocking Twins organization.

Quite frankly I don't know what the White Sox should do. We need talent that helps now, if Kenny is really serious about competing this year, but we also need future talent because, frankly, our odds are extremely long this year.

I love Kenny, but he has a lot to answer for for putting us in this position. We are a 72-win team that gave up one of our reliable starters and has acquired a good shortstop, an average mid-reliever, and a potential left-fielder. Congrats, Kenny, the master-plan should yield a 75-78 win team at this point.
:whiner::whiner::whiner::whiner::whiner::whiner::w hiner:

...
12-04-2007, 09:15 PM
Can anyone please tell me what moves KW can make now so that we can contend for a division title?

I don't think so. Otherwise they would be the White Sox GM and Kenny Williams would be posting on WSI...

soxyess
12-04-2007, 09:15 PM
Depression has definitely set it. I'm not a doom-and-gloomer normally but I really don't see what Kenny can do right now to make us competitive with Detroit... not to mention the Indians or a restocking Twins organization.

Quite frankly I don't know what the White Sox should do. We need talent that helps now, if Kenny is really serious about competing this year, but we also need future talent because, frankly, our odds are extremely long this year.

I love Kenny, but he has a lot to answer for for putting us in this position. We are a 72-win team that gave up one of our reliable starters and has acquired a good shortstop, an average mid-reliever, and a potential left-fielder. Congrats, Kenny, the master-plan should yield a 75-78 win team at this point.
:whiner::whiner::whiner::whiner::whiner::whiner::w hiner:

Amen! We are now a 75 win team. If the Royals make a few more moves. We will be starring up at them!! Kenny is responsible for the 05 WS team, but also responsible for ruining this franchise.

chisoxmike
12-04-2007, 09:16 PM
In some areas we do have a small market mentality. The draft is one. Also our refusal to deal with Borass is more "small market" behavior.

We don't spend like one, but at times we operate like one and that quite frankly makes Kenny's job more difficult.

I think the fact that Kenny wanted wholescale changes in regards to the draft and player development shows that if he worked with the same freedoms that Dombrowski has in Detroit we'd have a much better club and farm system. From what I gather, considering the Sox' budget, the old regime wanted players who would be more likely to make it to the big leagues. Kenny wants potential superstars and is the bigger risk taker.

I don't fault Kenny as much as some do. All GM's make good moves and bad moves, but I think in large part Kenny's hands are tied. He's the one who has to:

A) try to remain competitive at all times like large market teams
B) operate under restrictions that those other large market teams don't have
C) compete with reloaded small market clubs without having the benefit of holding a firesale to start over once something goes wrong

So yes, in a long answer we do have a bit of a small market mentality.

Excellent post.

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 09:23 PM
Amen! We are now a 75 win team. If the Royals make a few more moves. We will be starring up at them!! Kenny is responsible for the 05 WS team, but also responsible for ruining this franchise.
Blame Jerry Reinsdorf. He cuts the check not Kenny Williams. I'm willing to bet if Kenny could Andruw Jones would be in LF and Hunter would be in CF.

Rockabilly
12-04-2007, 09:25 PM
Can anyone please tell me what moves KW can make now so that we can contend for a division title?

well I guess we can trade some of young prospects like Fields, Gonzalez, Broadway and several others and try to get Haren and Kazmir

UserNameBlank
12-04-2007, 09:28 PM
User:

Your last post does bring up some very, very solid points on things and the 'mentality' for want of a better term in some areas.

Well thought out.

Lip

Excellent post.

Why thank you.

Much of this KW hate is reactionary. I've seen people bash him and call him one of the worst GM's in baseball. People who say that have no idea whatsoever what they are talking about. I think he does a good job and, despite his good public relationship with JR, the conflict of interest is obvious. I think JR wants the best of both worlds but he can't have it, and when things go bad, it all reflects on Kenny.

Dan Mega
12-04-2007, 09:30 PM
Why thank you.

Much of this KW hate is reactionary. I've seen people bash him and call him one of the worst GM's in baseball.

He is far from the worst in baseball. Example: Baltimore.

Grzegorz
12-04-2007, 09:34 PM
Amen! We are now a 75 win team. If the Royals make a few more moves. We will be starring up at them!! Kenny is responsible for the 05 WS team, but also responsible for ruining this franchise.

Relax, the season doesn't start tomorrow. As for "ruining this franchise" that would be a bit of a stretch.

There is no way that we can compete with the Tigers. I cant believe KW let this one get away!!

To your first assertion I'd just say that baseball is a team game. I'll concede that on paper the Tigers made a great move today but the game is decided on the field.

To your second statement I'd just say that I am sure that KW tried to obtain Miguel Cabrera but he failed to do so because the Chicago White Sox did not have the resources.

Paulwny
12-04-2007, 09:35 PM
well I guess we can trade some of young prospects like Fields, Gonzalez, Broadway and several others and try to get Haren and Kazmir

Might not be that easy.
From the NY daily News:
Oakland GM Billy Beane is said to be looking for a package of four players in exchange for Haren, with Hughes and Cabrera once again the likely centerpieces if the Yankees are to be serious players.

Tragg
12-04-2007, 09:47 PM
well I guess we can trade some of young prospects like Fields, Gonzalez, Broadway and several others and try to get Haren and Kazmir
Beane wants Santana value for Haren, because he is signed for more than 1 year. That's not us.

We didn't have the bullets to pull off the Cabrera deal and still contend.

What annoys me is the continued influx of talent to the AL.

veeter
12-04-2007, 09:49 PM
Kenny is always thinking big. That's a great thing. But we had our best year when he thought 'smart'. Orlando Cabrera, Linebrink and Quentin were 'smart' moves, IMO. Similar to the '05 thinking. Believe me, losing out on Hunter was a very good thing. The M. Cabrera thing, oh well, Detroit gave up so much they will feel it. And I think soon. Willis will struggle. Kenny needs to stay the 'smart' course. Keep thinking defense. Getting Vizciano (sp?) back would be very wise.

Paulwny
12-04-2007, 09:49 PM
Beane wants Santana value for Haren, because he is signed for more than 1 year. That's not us.

We didn't have the bullets to pull off the Cabrera deal and still contend.

What annoys me is the continued influx of talent to the AL.

Yep, Beane will be asking a lot.
From the San Fran. Chronicle:
Haren won't be a whole lot cheaper in terms of prospects than Santana. One assistant GM said his club had put in a call about Haren but that Beane "wanted our whole organization" in return.

Grzegorz
12-04-2007, 10:02 PM
What annoys me is the continued influx of talent to the AL.

As an American League fan I love it!

Lip Man 1
12-04-2007, 10:05 PM
The Sun-Times has a story now out on this and it's an interesting read in my opinion:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/680978,sox120407a.article

I was particularly struck by this passage:

" Less than a minute after listening to that message and doing his best to shake off the standing eight-count, Williams got a call from Sox outfielder Jermaine Dye asking what happened. Dye wasn't the only one asking that question as the Sox' offseason continued to go terribly wrong from what was hoped for.

Yes, they added shortstop Orlando Cabrera in a trade and free-agent reliever Scott Linebrink, but free-agent outfielder Torii Hunter and Miguel Cabrera were supposed to be the ''big fish'' that Williams spoke about three weeks ago. Those were the names Dye and Mark Buehrle were given when they signed contract extensions midway through the 2007 season."

If this is true could 'resentment' begin to start showing itself from the vets?, especially those who took pay cuts (in essence) to remain with the team?

Lip

chisoxmike
12-04-2007, 10:07 PM
The Sun-Times has a story now out on this and it's an interesting read in my opinion:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/680978,sox120407a.article

I was particularly struck by this passage:

" Less than a minute after listening to that message and doing his best to shake off the standing eight-count, Williams got a call from Sox outfielder Jermaine Dye asking what happened. Dye wasn't the only one asking that question as the Sox' offseason continued to go terribly wrong from what was hoped for.

Yes, they added shortstop Orlando Cabrera in a trade and free-agent reliever Scott Linebrink, but free-agent outfielder Torii Hunter and Miguel Cabrera were supposed to be the ''big fish'' that Williams spoke about three weeks ago. Those were the names Dye and Mark Buehrle were given when they signed contract extensions midway through the 2007 season."

If this is true could 'resentment' begin to start showing itself from the vets?, especially those who took pay cuts (in essence) to remain with the team?

Lip

Rut-oh. :o:

infohawk
12-04-2007, 10:14 PM
Kenny threw a great offer at Hunter, Anaheim grossly over paid. Kenny offered a huge package for Cabrera, Detroit offered one that no one could match. Kenny has done all that he could to get these 2 it didnt work out in our favor unfortunately. Don't hang this on Kenny.
It's not KW fault insofar as he made aggressive offers only to be outbid by more money and more/better prospects. What the story really is about is how years of sub-bar talent evaluation and subsequent poor drafting has finally caught up with the Sox. In that respect, yes, it's the fault of KW and the entire minor league/scouting system. I'm not completely down on Kenny, as I think he has finally seen what's become of the Sox farm system and has within the last year or so begun to overhaul the minor league and amateur scouting operations. Unfortunately, it was well too late to help us now. KW may still end up putting a vastly improved team on the field in 2008, but with a highly-talented Cleveland team and what now looks to be a potential monster in Detroit, it may very well not be enough.

Edit: One more thing. It's one thing to not land Cabrera. The fact that he's going to Detroit is just devastating. Not only is it a stunning move for the Tigers, but it really throws it right in our face.

JNS
12-04-2007, 10:15 PM
Why thank you.

Much of this KW hate is reactionary. I've seen people bash him and call him one of the worst GM's in baseball. People who say that have no idea whatsoever what they are talking about. I think he does a good job and, despite his good public relationship with JR, the conflict of interest is obvious. I think JR wants the best of both worlds but he can't have it, and when things go bad, it all reflects on Kenny.

This isn't about KW hate. It's about a depressing reality. For all the talk about how the Tigers will regret giving up all the young talent, well, Dombrowski is trying to do what KW claims to be trying to do; win now.

And if the Sox are a middle-market team, what are the Tigers? Last I checked, Detroit was a much smaller market than Chicago, with or without an NL team across town.

If this is not KW's issue, and it's about JR, than KW needs to quit and go to a franchise that respects its fans and its position in the baseball pecking order.

Of course lots can happen between now and April, but again, this is now the second high-end guy that has gone elsewhere.

Sure Baltimore has bad management after being the class of the AL for 20 years, but hey - Chicago ain't Baltimore.

Nobody has yet given a reasonable way for the Sox to fill their many remaining holes in a way that will put them on a par with Detroit or the Tribe.

I'll check back here in ten months to see if the same excuses are still being made because it very much looks as if the Sox are in the process of returning to a part of the wilderness that we have not seen since the Bevington years. Time to get real ownership and professional scouting and talent evaluation operations in there. Right now it seems to be inept on a lot of levels.

As stated by others in other threads, KW blamed Schaffer,and canned him, but the ultimate responsibility is with Williams and Rheinsdorf. Period.

Once more: I (and I'm not the only one) am tired of excuses. This is the year that the upper deck will again be empty. People will vote with their feet if they don't sense that managementis making the necessary effort to win. Big talk in the Fall just doesn't cut it. Time for KW and JR to put up or shut up.

Putting a good face on it doesn't change it - you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

champagne030
12-04-2007, 10:19 PM
Looking at the potential deals for Santana, Haren and Bedard... Burls would have been a 100 million dollar man, at least.

Imagine what Garland and Garcia could have brought in return had we not taken the first deal available.......:(:

infohawk
12-04-2007, 10:20 PM
The Sun-Times has a story now out on this and it's an interesting read in my opinion:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/680978,sox120407a.article

I was particularly struck by this passage:

" Less than a minute after listening to that message and doing his best to shake off the standing eight-count, Williams got a call from Sox outfielder Jermaine Dye asking what happened. Dye wasn't the only one asking that question as the Sox' offseason continued to go terribly wrong from what was hoped for.

Yes, they added shortstop Orlando Cabrera in a trade and free-agent reliever Scott Linebrink, but free-agent outfielder Torii Hunter and Miguel Cabrera were supposed to be the ''big fish'' that Williams spoke about three weeks ago. Those were the names Dye and Mark Buehrle were given when they signed contract extensions midway through the 2007 season."

If this is true could 'resentment' begin to start showing itself from the vets?, especially those who took pay cuts (in essence) to remain with the team?

Lip
You know what though, just because a GM says he's going after a player is no guarantee that he will get him. Dye and Buehrle are adults, and should understand that. That said, if KW absolutely, without-a-doubt promised he would land those two players, shame on him for guaranteeing something he could not completely control.

getonbckthr
12-04-2007, 10:22 PM
Imagine what Garland and Garcia could have brought in return had we not taken the first deal available.......:(:
Garland - This was a deal by Kenny when he felt he would be able to sign Torii and acquire Cabrera. I'm willing to bet if he could go back now he would not do that move.
Garcia- I don't think they could have gotten much more than they did.

Bill Naharodny
12-04-2007, 10:28 PM
You know what though, just because a GM says he's going after a player is not guarantee that he will get him. Dye and Buehrle are adults, and should understand that.

True, and they probably do. However, with respect to Hunter, they might also be wondering -- as it relates to free agents -- whether the White Sox will ever sign those who are top-of-the-line.

My guess is that, under the current regime, it will never happen again (last time: Albert Belle). We will invariably make a decent market offer, and there will invariably be at least one team with deep pockets (e.g., Angels, Yankees, Red Sox, Rangers) that will go higher -- because that's the way that markets GET MADE every year.

Just a fact -- and maybe these guys should have known it. I'm sure that they know it now.

infohawk
12-04-2007, 10:34 PM
You know what's so frustrating right now? The Sox seem to be playing a game of goldilocks in acquiring players. They are close, but don't quite have enough talent to trade to get their top trade targets. They are close, but don't quite have enough money to get their top FA targets. Then, even though they have the money left over from not getting their first tier FA targets, you get the sense they don't want to spend on the next tier of FA targets they could afford but don't want to pay because the next tier "isn't quite worth that much money."

In other words, what they offered for Hunter wasn't enough, but they don't want to offer Rowand or Jones something similar because "they're not worth it." That's fine if you have a legitimate alternative strategy to pursue, but when two of the big moves you were counting on come up snake eyes, it's time to start getting realistic. Either improve the team as much as humanly possible for 2008, even if it means shelling out more for a player than you actually believe he is worth, or rebuild.

psyclonis
12-04-2007, 10:34 PM
whats with all the whining??
Untill Jones gets signed, there should be no panicing.
Hunter is too old for the money and 2 years of cabrera is not worth a promising 3b/lf, and 2 future allstar pitchers (danks / gio)

itsnotrequired
12-04-2007, 10:36 PM
whats with all the whining??
Untill Jones gets signed, there should be no panicing.
Hunter is too old for the money and 2 years of cabrera is not worth a promising 3b/lf, and 2 future allstar pitchers (danks / gio)

People are antsy every since KW traded Iguchi to Philly and didn't even get Rowand back.

JNS
12-04-2007, 10:38 PM
You know what though, just because a GM says he's going after a player is no guarantee that he will get him. Dye and Buehrle are adults, and should understand that. That said, if KW absolutely, without-a-doubt promised he would land those two players, shame on him for guaranteeing something he could not completely control.

whats with all the whining??
Untill Jones gets signed, there should be no panicing.
Hunter is too old for the money and 2 years of cabrera is not worth a promising 3b/lf, and 2 future allstar pitchers (danks / gio)

Reverse on JonesBy Mark Gonzales - 7:07 p.m.
NASHVILLE - Despite earlier comments by manager Ozzie Guillen, general manager Kenny Williams said the White Sox have no interest in free agent center fielder Andruw Jones.
"Andruw Jones is not on our list," said Williams, adding that he liked Jones but wanted players who can help lower the team's strikeout total, raise their on-base percentage and work deep counts.

BeefyD
12-04-2007, 10:49 PM
Well, according to whitesox.com, we were willing to trade Fields and Gio to Florida:

Despite reportedly pitching a package to Florida including third baseman Josh Fields and pitchers such as John Danks and Gio Gonzalez, Williams wasn't nearly as confident in his pursuit of Cabrera as he was in his pitch to then-free-agent center fielder Torii Hunter.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071204&content_id=2317873&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

UserNameBlank
12-04-2007, 11:04 PM
This isn't about KW hate. It's about a depressing reality. For all the talk about how the Tigers will regret giving up all the young talent, well, Dombrowski is trying to do what KW claims to be trying to do; win now....

I'm responding to your whole post, but mine is long too so I'm not going to quote the whole thing.

It's clear now that for the Sox to have gotten Cabrera they would have had to take on Willis as well. There's no way Jenks isn't involved. Jenks + Fields + maybe three of Gio/Danks/Broadway/Egbert + Anderson/Sweeney would probably have been more likely. Personally, I don't like Miller and I think he's going to fall apart, but scouts love that arm. It's hard not to, and the Sox don't have anyone with his ceiling except DLS who is at least one year away from touching the Majors IMO, but even he's not a lefty. Miller is and he's ready now. Maybin is a hell of a prospect. The Sox would have had to give up a lot, and I think you could make a logical case either for or against such a move. I'm not going to bash Kenny for not making that deal, especially if Josh hits something like .280/.400/.500 next year with 20+ SB's. Josh is going to be a stud and could very well approach 40 HR's in his first full season.

I posted comments before about the Sox being a large market team with some small market behaviors. I'm not going to type it again because I already responded to this comment, but yes, Detriot is a smaller market than Chicago. Yet, Detroit doesn't place restrictions on themselves like the JR does with the Sox.

JR loves the team and so does Kenny. It's not that he "disrespects" the fans. He just sees things in a very different way and it's quite clear that in today's game you need to take advantage of every opportunity provided. If you want to get a player on the FA market, it's better to overpay for a star with a dickwad agent than overpay for a mediocre player coming off of a career year. If you want to trade for the most impactful pre-arb players, you'll need to accumulate as many sexy prospects as you can. Big arms and guys with tools, especially power potential, get things done. To get these guys you often have to go above slot in the draft and spend large amounts internationally. JR doesn't want to see that apparently, but it's not that he doesn't care about the fans.

The Sox aren't going to fill their holes in any way that makes them look comparable to Detroit on paper. That will not happen. So, don't hope for it. Prior to the Cabrera deal, the thought was there that we might be ****ed. Now we're naked a prison shower.

It's not all Kenny's fault. Much of this is on JR's shoulders and much of it is on the shoulders of the players of the 2007 squad. If so many guys didn't suck last year then maybe we would have been able to deal say Contreras or MacDougal for more ammo to complete a Cabrera deal, or to pick up an ace, or something else like that.

I don't know what you're looking for when you say excuses. The world doesn't run off of a PS2 engine. I mentioned before that maybe this deal could have gotten done with the inclusion of Jenks. Who is to say Kenny even has the green light to deal him? We don't know. The only thing I know is that the whole situation is much more complex than most people think it is.

You rip the scouting yet ignore the smart DLS pickup in '06, ignore the Jenks Rule 5 pick up, ignore the Richar trade, ignore the Danks and Gio/Gavin trades, etc. Yes we've had some things blow up like Aardsma and Sisco for instance, but the scouting is not the main problem here. The problem I think has more to do with the budget we are given. You talk about blaming Schaffer, but KW never to my knowledge blamed Schaffer directly. He acknowledged the difference in approach to the draft. It's not like Schaffer was hired out of a McDonald's drive-thru and given major responsibilites because he had a customer friendly voice and knew how to cook a hamburger. He knew what he was doing; he just had a different philosophy. Schaffer's philosophy was a direct result of financial limitations. Kenny has a different philosophy, but his trully fits more of Detroit's style than ours. The thing is, we need that type of GM to compete. Hopefully one day JR will get it.

I don't know if you really even know what you're saying when you say, so simply, that "the ultimate responsibility is with Williams and Reinsdorf." The players don't have anything to do with this? Or the manager? Or the coaching staff? I mean, come on. If you're going to put everything on two guys, especially Kenny who is always looking to improve his team and has no problems with dealing a prospect to bring in a veteran for the fans, then you have to give credit where it is due as well. I'm not going to go over everything because this post is already long enough, but I'll give you an example:

We win the WS in 2005. Kenny and co. had Esteban Loaiza sucking in 2004 and meanwhile Contreras was getting booed in Yankee Stadium. Kenny sees a ton of potential in Jose, so he makes a deal to bring him in. Contreras gets hot in 2005 and is a major reason we won a WS that year. So, after 2005, now you have suddenly one of the top pitchers in baseball, because he's always had the arm and the stuff, with only one year left on his contract. If you are Kenny, do you:
1. Extend him and please the fans?
2. Trade him and piss them off?
3. Let him play out the season and risk losing him to FA or paying a ton more than he would have cost earlier, ala Konerko?

As it was, Kenny extended him. Smart deal at the time, and through the first half of '06 Jose was simply destructive. Then, he tailed off after the break having some issues. After '06, and after you had a team that vastly underachieved yet still won 90 games, do you:
1. Trade him, especially after you've already traded a proven veteran in Garcia, and piss off the fans who now don't think you can contend without him?
2. Keep him and go for it.

Kenny made the wrong move here. As far as Contreras goes, he made the right move in acquiring him and the right move in extending him. His only mistake was not dealing him at the right time.

I'm not going to go over everything here, but you have to look at the job Kenny has done and you have to look at the situation he is in. His owner wants him to compete but he can't sign the top guys of the FA market and he can't go over slot in the draft. He is forced to work more through trades with lesser prospects generally and he can not rebuild. He has to take chances on veteran players that GM's like Billy Beane and Terry Ryan, etc. would NEVER EVER TAKE because of the team he is the GM of.

If you want to look at this an one giant excuse, then go ahead. Be ignorant. I'm just telling you what I see as a life-long Sox fan.

UserNameBlank
12-04-2007, 11:05 PM
^Damn, that's a long post.

Sorry to the mods for eating bandwidth, whatever that is.

doublem23
12-04-2007, 11:10 PM
That's what I was thinking. Had David stayed with this organization god only knows how many championships we would have won.

All the championships he "would have won" are exactly how many more than he's got now.

:rolleyes:

PalehosePlanet
12-04-2007, 11:11 PM
Seems to me that The Tigers will have to win alot of 10-8, 11-9 type games to win the divison. Other than Verlander, the other pitchers all have major question marks: Bonderman (5.01 ERA) regressed badly last year and is a question mark, Kenny Rogers (4.43) is getting very old, Robertson (4.76) is plain old bad with no potential to get better, Dontrelle Willis (5.17 and 241 HA in the NL!!) makes Contreras '07 look wonderful by comparison; and a bullpen headed by Todd Jones and Fernando Rodney (both at 4.26) and no Joel Zumaya (4.28).

I don't know maybe it's just me, but Cleveland still seems the team to beat in our division.

As far as we go: Yes, I'm dissapointed that we didn't get Cabrera, but I like the O. Cabrera, Linebrink and Quentin moves so far. They were all needed moves IMO.

Sockinchisox
12-04-2007, 11:11 PM
^Damn, that's a long post.

Sorry to the mods for eating bandwidth, whatever that is.

That was a **** good post, kudos my friend.

itsnotrequired
12-04-2007, 11:12 PM
^Damn, that's a long post.

Sorry to the mods for eating bandwidth, whatever that is.

You fool! Jenks was a waiver pick up, not a Rule 5 pick up!

:redneck

rocky biddle
12-04-2007, 11:15 PM
Maybe KW can go back in time and trade MB and JD at the trade deadline for prospects, then sign those two this offseason via free agency, and then spin said prospects to Florida for Cabrera and Willis.

:happybday

soxwon
12-04-2007, 11:17 PM
We are going to be an afterthought in our division. There is no way that we can compete with the Tigers. I cant believe KW let this one get away!! We have to start questioning his ability to aquire difference makers. How can anyone with a straight face look at our roster and the Tiger's roster and say that we can compete with that team for the division. Not to mention the Indians and Twins. For a team thats two years removed from the WS, I cant believe that we have fallen so fast. Someone has to be held accountable for this mess!! I cant tell you how disappointed I am as a life long fan!!:(::(:

Become a cubs fan.

ChiSoxFan35
12-04-2007, 11:18 PM
I will hang it on Kenny cause he was in charge when we assembled the worse minor league system in the majors. Kenny allowed our system to be depleted, and was in charge when we drafted all the players in our farm system. Our major league team is old, and our minor leagues are bad. Thats a terrible combination.

This is a good point, you can say 'other teams just offered more', but that's the point, our best offer is a joke compared to Detroit's, and we are starting to get in a desperate situation, you have to take everything into consideration

soxyess
12-04-2007, 11:20 PM
Become a cubs fan.

Why should I become a cubs fan? I cant point out an obvious problem with a team I love? Explain to me how we will contend in 2008, and if you can I'll take back everything I said.

champagne030
12-04-2007, 11:23 PM
Seems to me that The Tigers will have to win alot of 10-8, 11-9 type games to win the divison. Other than Verlander, the other pitchers all have major question marks: Bonderman (5.01 ERA) regressed badly last year and is a question mark, Kenny Rogers (4.43) is getting very old, Robertson (4.76) is plain old bad with no potential to get better, Dontrelle Willis (5.17 and 241 HA in the NL!!) makes Contreras '07 look wonderful by comparison; and a bullpen headed by Todd Jones and Fernando Rodney (both at 4.26) and no Joel Zumaya (4.28).

Based on your post, I guess the Sox will be losing a lot of 8-4 and 9-5 games.

doublem23
12-04-2007, 11:24 PM
Why should I become a cubs fan? I cant point out an obvious problem with a team I love? Explain to me how we will contend in 2008, and if you can I'll take back everything I said.

Where, oh great wise one, did you pencil us in for before 2005, when we trade the great, home run hitting Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik and signed an unknown Japanese second baseman?

If it was World Champs, you're lying.

Luckily for the 2007 Sox, baseball gets played on the field and not in nerdy computer databases.

WhiteSox5187
12-04-2007, 11:25 PM
All the championships he "would have won" are exactly how many more than he's got now.

:rolleyes:
You mean the 1997 WS? The 2006 pennant? Laying the foundation for the 2003 WS team (he left that year)? Making the Expos a premier team (they had the best record in '94 a year after he left)? Those championships? Turning around a team that lost 120 games in '03 to a team that won 90+ three years later?

Yea, you're right, I'd hate to have a GM like that around here.

doublem23
12-04-2007, 11:27 PM
You mean the 1997 WS? The 2006 pennant? Laying the foundation for the 2003 WS team (he left that year)? Making the Expos a premier team (they had the best record in '94 a year after he left)? Those championships? Turning around a team that lost 120 games in '03 to a team that won 90+ three years later?

Yea, you're right, I'd hate to have a GM like that around here.

http://kelly.jefferson.net/soxforum/blog/whitesoxring.jpg

I'm content.

soxyess
12-04-2007, 11:29 PM
Where, oh great wise one, did you pencil us in for before 2005, when we trade the great, home run hitting Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik and signed an unknown Japanese second baseman?

If it was World Champs, you're lying.

Luckily for the 2007 Sox, baseball gets played on the field and not in nerdy computer databases.

Those 2007 sox looked better on the computer than on the field

voodoochile
12-04-2007, 11:33 PM
Why should I become a cubs fan? I cant point out an obvious problem with a team I love? Explain to me how we will contend in 2008, and if you can I'll take back everything I said.

Sign and trade Crede for a veteran starter
Sign or acquire someone to play CF
Hope that Fields, Owens and Richar all develop into solid MLB players
Hope that Contreras returns to form
Hope that Danks turns into a stud
Sign a veteran 5th starter

Count on other players to return to career averages.

There ya go...

doublem23
12-04-2007, 11:34 PM
Those 2007 sox looked better on the computer than on the field

Thanks for proving my point. In 2006, when Jim Thome was acquired, we all thought he was the "missing piece" that would keep the Sox on top of the AL Central for a few years and maybe help us win a few more World Series. This is a crazy game. Sitting here in December and stating "woh is me, we have no chance to compete with the Tigers or Indians or Twins and the Royals are getting good," is completely ****ing stupid. Maybe use your brain for a second before you jump off the god damn ledge.

By the way, it's still December.

Walkman
12-04-2007, 11:35 PM
Seems to me that The Tigers will have to win alot of 10-8, 11-9 type games to win the divison. Other than Verlander, the other pitchers all have major question marks: Bonderman (5.01 ERA) regressed badly last year and is a question mark, Kenny Rogers (4.43) is getting very old, Robertson (4.76) is plain old bad with no potential to get better, Dontrelle Willis (5.17 and 241 HA in the NL!!) makes Contreras '07 look wonderful by comparison; and a bullpen headed by Todd Jones and Fernando Rodney (both at 4.26) and no Joel Zumaya (4.28).

I don't know maybe it's just me, but Cleveland still seems the team to beat in our division.

As far as we go: Yes, I'm dissapointed that we didn't get Cabrera, but I like the O. Cabrera, Linebrink and Quentin moves so far. They were all needed moves IMO.

I am with you on this one. Detroit looks a lot like last year's Yankees.

voodoochile
12-04-2007, 11:38 PM
Those 2007 sox looked better on the computer than on the field

Well sure with the number of critical injuries and complete fall offs from career averages the team suffered, it's not really that surprising that the team didn't come close to meeting expectations.

The question remains, "was last year a fluke for injuries and below average output or is the beginning of a trend?"

I don't know if the Sox have the talent as currently configured to compete for a pennant. Probably not, it would require a lot of huge rookie seasons as well as a big return to form by several players.

Doesn't mean it's impossible, but I can't fault KW for trying to improve the team and getting beat by outrageous offers from opponents. I'm not sure Cabrera and Willis are enough to turn this team into championship contenders either and I am expecting huge things from Fields in the years to come if they can just find a position for him.

It's a little early for cliff diving into dry river beds anyway...

soxwon
12-04-2007, 11:42 PM
Why should I become a cubs fan? I cant point out an obvious problem with a team I love? Explain to me how we will contend in 2008, and if you can I'll take back everything I said.


We are Awesome, We will win the Division, Have Faith-A,
You gots to believe dat da Baseball Gods will bestow the best Talent upon us in the year 08.
Its all in Believing, Im full of Believin Juice, We is a blessed.
Detroit will fall, like the Walls at Jericho.
Believe my friend Believe.

UserNameBlank
12-04-2007, 11:44 PM
It's a little early for cliff diving into dry river beds anyway...
(Hijack)

It's weird that you apparently picture your cliff in more of a desert setting. The cliff I picture is always in a wintery enviornment.

Okay, carry on...

UserNameBlank
12-04-2007, 11:45 PM
We are Awesome, We will win the Division, Have Faith-A,
You gots to believe dat da Baseball Gods will bestow the best Talent upon us in the year 08.
Its all in Believing, Im full of Believin Juice, We is a blessed.
Detroit will fall, like the Walls at Jericho.
Believe my friend Believe.
Da Rev!

Actually Rev, I think we all need a good sermon now.

Since most of us are looking at our glasses as being half empty, you should top them all off with kool-aid.

voodoochile
12-04-2007, 11:48 PM
We are Awesome, We will win the Division, Have Faith-A,
You gots to believe dat da Baseball Gods will bestow the best Talent upon us in the year 08.
Its all in Believing, Im full of Believin Juice, We is a blessed.
Detroit will fall, like the Walls at Jericho.
Believe my friend Believe.

Instead of urging him to believe, can you urge him to go ahead and jump? If not, could you give him a shove?

doublem23
12-04-2007, 11:48 PM
(Hijack)

It's weird that you apparently picture your cliff in more of a desert setting. The cliff I picture is always in a wintery enviornment.

Okay, carry on...

You can have a dry riverbed in a winter setting.

Whatever floats your boat.

drewcifer
12-04-2007, 11:53 PM
You can have a dry riverbed in a winter setting.

Whatever floats your boat.

I want to see that picture.

rowand33
12-04-2007, 11:55 PM
Where, oh great wise one, did you pencil us in for before 2005, when we trade the great, home run hitting Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik and signed an unknown Japanese second baseman?

If it was World Champs, you're lying.

Luckily for the 2007 Sox, baseball gets played on the field and not in nerdy computer databases.

For what it's worth, some of my very first posts on WSI were about how great the 2005 White Sox would be. I was jacked for that season. And a lot of the reasons I was jacked was because of stats (Contreras's lifetime numbers against the AL Central sticks out as something that had me excited). I didn't predict World Series, but I predicted us taking the Central, something I've always been proud of.

2008 doesn't look good right now. There's still a lot of time, but WHO is going to leadoff? Are the kids going to pitch alright? Is more bullpen help on the way? Can some of our terrible bullpen kids rebound?

Ultimately, the Sox will go the way of our pitching. If Buehrle and Vazquez repeat last year, Contreras rebounds, and Danks and Floyd turn in good seasons, we'll be good.

I don't feel as good about these ifs as I did in 2005 though. Not by a long shot.

Right now, I'm pinning for one of: Ryan Freel, Josh Hamilton, or David DeJesus to play center and leadoff and Livan Hernandez.

Then if the stars align again, maybe we'll make the playoffs.

As constructed right now, I don't think we have a chance, and it's disheartening to see all of our top targets go to other teams. Especially when one of them is our rival.

Edit:
Another reason I was excited about 2005 was because I didn't feel we had a weak spot 1-9 in the entire lineup. Our worst bat was Crede. And if your worst bat hits 20+ homers, plays great d, hits about .260, and drives in 70... you're in a good place.

I'll be happy with this offseason if we don't have any glaring weakspots. Then let's just hope for the best.

soxwon
12-05-2007, 12:05 AM
Instead of urging him to believe, can you urge him to go ahead and jump? If not, could you give him a shove?


well i suggested him, becoming a cubs fan, and wallow in misery.
But da baseball God's do forgive, we all have had moments of weakness, some more than others . LOl
By tommorow night we will be singing the praises of Kenny Oren Williams.

PeoriaSoxFan
12-05-2007, 12:07 AM
How many years now have the Sox been rumored to be on the verge of landing some big player, only to come in a close second? Simply put, Detoit just kicked our a - - this offseason, along with everyone else in the league. I am tired of reading rumors about the Sox and want to see results. We got Carlos Quentin and the SS Cabrera,while losing John Garland. Detroit gets Renteria, M.Cabrera, and D-Train without detracting from last year's roster. Our minor leagues are flat out killing us, with limited prospects of any real value. Meanwhile, our major league roster is filled with underachieving, aging, slow, overpaid former stars. We lack at least 2 outfielders and have several other holes. With that said, I am still a fan and hope springs eternal.

WhiteSox5187
12-05-2007, 12:12 AM
http://kelly.jefferson.net/soxforum/blog/whitesoxring.jpg

I'm content.
I want more...I'm not so sure Kenny has any left in him, David Dombrowski on the other hand, I think he has a couple of more.

SoxGirl4Life
12-05-2007, 12:13 AM
We lack at least 2 outfielders and have several other holes. With that said, I am still a fan and hope springs eternal.


With your record being 7-1 at the Cell this year, I think the only thing Kenny has to do is make sure you're at every home game and on every road trip! :smile:

voodoochile
12-05-2007, 12:15 AM
How many years now have the Sox been rumored to be on the verge of landing some big player, only to come in a close second? Simply put, Detoit just kicked our a - - this offseason, along with everyone else in the league. I am tired of reading rumors about the Sox and want to see results. We got Carlos Quentin and the SS Cabrera,while losing John Garland. Detroit gets Renteria, M.Cabrera, and D-Train without detracting from last year's roster. Our minor leagues are flat out killing us, with limited prospects of any real value. Meanwhile, our major league roster is filled with underachieving, aging, slow, overpaid former stars. We lack at least 2 outfielders and have several other holes. With that said, I am still a fan and hope springs eternal.

Hey, there's a possibilty that the Sox got everything they could out of the team in 2005, just missed in 2006 and were already into the decline by 2007 and that indeed it will take a few years to get the dead weight off the books and work the next group of young pitchers/position players into a cohesive unit. Then the money will be there for the Sox to make some moves and make a run, but it's not over yet, so anything is still possible.

Lightning does indeed strike the same place twice in fact there are dozens of PEOPLE who have been hit multiple times by lightning, so maybe just as everything went wrong last year, everything will go right this coming year and the Sox will shock the world by making another run or two at a pennant with this same core group of players.

Chicken Dinner
12-05-2007, 12:18 AM
We always win the WS after Boston does right? :D:

johnr1note
12-05-2007, 12:18 AM
We all should take a deep breath and realize that last year's White Sox team and last year's Marlins team finished only a game apart. I think we delude ourselves if we think we are dealing with teams like the Marlins from a position of strength. The only way to transform this team into a contender is to do what the Marlins are doing -- take established and proven components of your team and trade for younger, talented, but unproven players.

What does that mean for us? Going after a player like Miguel Cabrera with a package of our prospects won't work, because we're not dealing from strength. We really don't have much in the way of prospects to give up. Detroit did, and they gave up a lot for Cabrera and Willis. Indeed, the Baseball Prospectus guys interviewed on XM today couldn't understand why Detroit gave up their two best pitching prospects as part of the deal -- they felt one of them could have made the jump to the big club and performed adequately.

Our strengths lie in the basic components of our team that we as fans view as established and untouchable. Paul Konerko. Mark Buehrle. Bobby Jenks. Jermaine Dye. To a lesser degree Joe Crede.

The trade bandied about on another thread having Konerko shipped to Arizona for a package of young players is the kind of trade that will improve us, and even help us contend this year. But that is what we need to do -- collect the prospects ourselves. We are not a player or two away anymore.

We must deal from strength in order to get stronger. We don't have enough money to compete with the cash cow clubs for free agents (hence the Hunter experience) and we don't have the prospects to tempt buildng teams (hence the Miguel Cabrerra experience). We can only deal what we have that other teams want. Then and only then can we build a winning team.

JNS
12-05-2007, 12:28 AM
I'm responding to your whole post, but mine is long too so I'm not going to quote the whole thing.

Whew? Where to begin?

I agree with much of what you write, and disagree with a lot as well. There is more than enough there to do a lot of both. It's also nice to read an intelligent post; so many of them are defensive.

I too am a lifelong Sox fan. I went to my first game in 1959 - when I was five. Hooray for me.

I think we could have gotten Cabrera/Willis for Fields, Gio, Danks, Broadway, and Anderson/Sweeny. I don't think they would have had to give up Jenks.

Whatever - the point is, KW seems to be having difficulty closing. This has been well covered by others in other posts/threads/articles. GM is very much a "what-have-you-done-lately" type of gig, and KW is now batting one-for-three. The trade yesterday was not a major deal; the Sox may get lucky with the kid from Stanford but it's a stretch. The fact is, KW has at least two starters from last (and previous) seasons- Crede and Uribe - that probably should go, and unless something comes out of the woodwork, not a lot out there to get for them. So we may have to just give them away. Great.

KW has now been GM for seven years. His aggregate record is not looking good, going back to the Ritchie trade. In that time we have one WS - fantastic, unforgettable, a life's dream, but it's in the past - a bunch of first division finishes, and a lot of disappointment. He does bear responsibility.

If you don't believe the players are dogging it, and are doing the best they can, then yes, the buck does stop with KW and JR. If they think that their manager is failing or bears responsibility for their situation, they can fire him. Nobody can fire JR, and only one person can fire KW; JR. So yes, the buck stops with them.

As for the distinction between JR and KW, well, there is none. If KW is willing to work within the constraints that JR sets, and that prevents him from putting together a championship team, well, he can quit, otherwise it's on him as well.

I'm not ignoring anything KW has done. He's found some good players. Jenks, AJ, Iguchi, and some others. Hooray. Isn't that what he's paid the big bucks to do? But in the end his gig isn't just finding good players - it is putting together and being the generalissimo of a championship team..If he wins one (as he has), it's his job to make sure we win another. Or at least stay competitive and in the race most of the time. This is not happening.

You say that JR's POV is "different." How so? Does that make it right? It's time he comes to terms with notion that when you pay a guy for six or seven years, you are really only paying him for three productive years - that means that a given free agent is even more expensive, but if that's what you gotta do to win - well, winning teams make a ton of dough. If the Sox are in contention most of the time they will make a ton of dough no matter how much bigger their payroll becomes, and how many superstars they "overpay." You mention the constraints that JR places on the Sox. Do those constraints make sense? Do they jibe with JR's professed love of the team? These are legitimate questions. In most organizations the ultimate responsibility is with the bosses. Jerry and Kenny are the bosses. they do the hiring and firing; their employees failures are their failures.

So I agree with you that this is mainly on JR's shoulders. I think he's a bad owner. But KW is complicit. He enables the guy and his flawed and shortsighted method.

As for the trades, well, the jury is still very much out on Danks, Gio, Floyd, and Richar. I'm sure some of the (Gio?) will be great, but none of them have been close to impact players yet. So we'll see.

That said, I rarely have had any issues with the guys KW gets rid of (Kip Wells, Mike Sirotka, although I still hate the Lee/Pods deal, and the Young/Javy deal can be questioned - but that's another argument) but I often dislike the guys he gets. It's a matter of his talent evaluators and his own evaluations.

Contreras? I dunno. I actually think he'll have a good season - his divorce is out of the way and he can get on with life - but I was against his extension. I felt he was too old.

I won't get into my feelings about the Lee/Pods deal or how it may or may NOT have effected our championship run.

KW/JR have also presided over the gutting of what was one of the best farm systems in the game when KW took over.

Winning the World Series was great. Made some of us hungry for more. Sustaining is a huge part of KW and JR's remit. I know KW would agree with that. Eventually he will have to come to terms with what he has and what he could have had.

Those of us who spend a fair piece of our disposable income on the Sox will have to come to terms with it as well.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 01:21 AM
I think Detroit gave up way too much for a guy that can walk next year. Lets keep Fields and Gio et al and sign Rowand or Jones.

Who can walk next year? Willis?

I dunno about that...but even if it's true, Willis is a minor part of the deal.

Cabrera is arbitration eligible, which means as long as Dee-troit will pay him what he's worth he cant go anywhere till 2010

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 01:22 AM
I think we could have gotten Cabrera/Willis for Fields, Gio, Danks, Broadway, and Anderson/Sweeny. I don't think they would have had to give up Jenks.



I think your'e ****ing crazy.

what Detroit gave up in prospects was much better than Fields, Gio, or Danks, plus they gave up 6 players.

We have jack **** in our farm system beyond the 4 players you mentioned (anderson and Sweeney are not marketable commodities)

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 01:25 AM
...and now they dont' have them. The Tigers gave away the store on this one. If I was a Tigers' fan, I'd be pissed off.



Yeah. That really really sucks they got a 24 year old superstar and a former Cy Young candidate for 2 prospects who wouldn't even have made the roster and a few other farmhands.

What a bummer for a team hoping to contend next year.

I'd be SO ****ing pissed if I were a Tiger fan.

No. Wait. Check that. I mean if I were a White Sox fan. Which I am.

We're ****ed for pretty much the forseeable future. Dombrowski made a ****ing steal of a deal and the Tigers will be sitting pretty in our division for a long long time barring freak injuries.

edit: and for the record, anyone who knows anything about my posting history knows I'm anything but a dark cloud. I'm generally in favor of Kenny's moves and think he knows what he's doing, but the fact is we're ****ed right now with no hope for contention and no farm system.
We are ****ed ****ed ****ed ****ed ****ed

kobo
12-05-2007, 01:57 AM
Yeah. That really really sucks they got a 24 year old superstar and a former Cy Young candidate for 2 prospects who wouldn't even have made the roster and a few other farmhands.

What a bummer for a team hoping to contend next year.

I'd be SO ****ing pissed if I were a Tiger fan.

No. Wait. Check that. I mean if I were a White Sox fan. Which I am.

We're ****ed for pretty much the forseeable future. Dombrowski made a ****ing steal of a deal and the Tigers will be sitting pretty in our division for a long long time barring freak injuries.

edit: and for the record, anyone who knows anything about my posting history knows I'm anything but a dark cloud. I'm generally in favor of Kenny's moves and think he knows what he's doing, but the fact is we're ****ed right now with no hope for contention and no farm system.
We are ****ed ****ed ****ed ****ed ****ed
Would Cabrera solve the problem in CF? Would Cabrera solve the problem of lack of lead-off hitter? Would Cabrera solve the bullpen problem? It would be great to have the guy, but the Sox have bigger holes to fill, in my opinion, in order to contend any time soon.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 01:59 AM
Would Cabrera solve the problem in CF? Would Cabrera solve the problem of lack of lead-off hitter? Would Cabrera solve the bullpen problem? It would be great to have the guy, but the Sox have bigger holes to fill, in my opinion, in order to contend any time soon.

Cabrera wouldn't SOLVE any problems, but getting him AND taking his production away from the Tigers's lineup would have at least been a big step forward in helping us contend.

It's not KW's fault (to an extent) we couldn't get him--the Tigers just had much better prospects. But thats' what really is bothering me--why do we have, pretty much, the least attractive prospect set in terms of packaging trades.

Part of it is KW's unwillingness to pony up for draft picks...another part is KW's willingness to give up blue chips. But what is the other part of it? Is it our farm system is just awful in terms of grooming prospects? What is it?

Jiddy78
12-05-2007, 06:46 AM
This move hurts us pretty bad...Add the cherry on top of Detroit moving the fences in this year and we might be looking at the highest scoring team in history. Ouch.

Frater Perdurabo
12-05-2007, 06:54 AM
Holding KW responsible for a move that another team made is ludicrous.

Go ahead and jump off the ledge, dark clouds. Stop spamming WSI and give me more room on the bandwagon.

:kukoo:

gr8mexico
12-05-2007, 07:11 AM
The Miguel Cabrera trade would take us into a worst spot then last year. If the trade involves Josh Field, Gio, John Danks and Floyd. Then what happens to are rotation. We would have a 3 man rotation. We will still have a CF problem and no bullpen help. Not making the trade was the best thing for us.

JNS
12-05-2007, 08:23 AM
I think your'e ****ing crazy.

what Detroit gave up in prospects was much better than Fields, Gio, or Danks, plus they gave up 6 players.

We have jack **** in our farm system beyond the 4 players you mentioned (anderson and Sweeney are not marketable commodities)

Boy - a little intense aren't we?

Just my opinion. And for the record, I'm not @#%$ing crazy. Just annoyed. One way or the other, the Sox management has now not gotten two guys they publicly stated they were going for.

I'vebeen a Sox fan for over 40 years - this isn't about the gloom and doom folks vs. the optimists. It's just reality.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 08:25 AM
Holding KW responsible for a move that another team made is ludicrous.

Go ahead and jump off the ledge, dark clouds. Stop spamming WSI and give me more room on the bandwagon.

:kukoo:

No, it's ridiculous to ignore the fact that in a trade where we were unable to match another team's offer, our GM is responsible for that disparity in available talent.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 08:26 AM
Boy - a little intense aren't we?

Just my opinion. And for the record, I'm not @#%$ing crazy. Just annoyed. One way or the other, the Sox management has now not gotten two guys they publicly stated they were going for.

I'vebeen a Sox fan for over 40 years - this isn't about the gloom and doom folks vs. the optimists. It's just reality.

You're annoyed that the Marlins aren't stupid enough that we wouldn't have been able to swing the deal from Detroit's offer of much better prospects by offering two more lousy minor league prospects?

eastchicagosoxfan
12-05-2007, 08:28 AM
According to the article in the Cubune, the Marlins wanted a catching prospect. The Sox didn't have one to offer. It was a deal breaker. Time to move on.

JNS
12-05-2007, 09:16 AM
You're annoyed that the Marlins aren't stupid enough that we wouldn't have been able to swing the deal from Detroit's offer of much better prospects by offering two more lousy minor league prospects?

No, I'm annoyed that the Sox are incapable of closing a deal.

I'm annoyed that they will be a .500 team at best in 08.

You sound very annoyed - what's your reason?

soxyess
12-05-2007, 09:27 AM
Whew? Where to begin?

I agree with much of what you write, and disagree with a lot as well. There is more than enough there to do a lot of both. It's also nice to read an intelligent post; so many of them are defensive.

I too am a lifelong Sox fan. I went to my first game in 1959 - when I was five. Hooray for me.

I think we could have gotten Cabrera/Willis for Fields, Gio, Danks, Broadway, and Anderson/Sweeny. I don't think they would have had to give up Jenks.

Whatever - the point is, KW seems to be having difficulty closing. This has been well covered by others in other posts/threads/articles. GM is very much a "what-have-you-done-lately" type of gig, and KW is now batting one-for-three. The trade yesterday was not a major deal; the Sox may get lucky with the kid from Stanford but it's a stretch. The fact is, KW has at least two starters from last (and previous) seasons- Crede and Uribe - that probably should go, and unless something comes out of the woodwork, not a lot out there to get for them. So we may have to just give them away. Great.

KW has now been GM for seven years. His aggregate record is not looking good, going back to the Ritchie trade. In that time we have one WS - fantastic, unforgettable, a life's dream, but it's in the past - a bunch of first division finishes, and a lot of disappointment. He does bear responsibility.

If you don't believe the players are dogging it, and are doing the best they can, then yes, the buck does stop with KW and JR. If they think that their manager is failing or bears responsibility for their situation, they can fire him. Nobody can fire JR, and only one person can fire KW; JR. So yes, the buck stops with them.

As for the distinction between JR and KW, well, there is none. If KW is willing to work within the constraints that JR sets, and that prevents him from putting together a championship team, well, he can quit, otherwise it's on him as well.

I'm not ignoring anything KW has done. He's found some good players. Jenks, AJ, Iguchi, and some others. Hooray. Isn't that what he's paid the big bucks to do? But in the end his gig isn't just finding good players - it is putting together and being the generalissimo of a championship team..If he wins one (as he has), it's his job to make sure we win another. Or at least stay competitive and in the race most of the time. This is not happening.

You say that JR's POV is "different." How so? Does that make it right? It's time he comes to terms with notion that when you pay a guy for six or seven years, you are really only paying him for three productive years - that means that a given free agent is even more expensive, but if that's what you gotta do to win - well, winning teams make a ton of dough. If the Sox are in contention most of the time they will make a ton of dough no matter how much bigger their payroll becomes, and how many superstars they "overpay." You mention the constraints that JR places on the Sox. Do those constraints make sense? Do they jibe with JR's professed love of the team? These are legitimate questions. In most organizations the ultimate responsibility is with the bosses. Jerry and Kenny are the bosses. they do the hiring and firing; their employees failures are their failures.

So I agree with you that this is mainly on JR's shoulders. I think he's a bad owner. But KW is complicit. He enables the guy and his flawed and shortsighted method.

As for the trades, well, the jury is still very much out on Danks, Gio, Floyd, and Richar. I'm sure some of the (Gio?) will be great, but none of them have been close to impact players yet. So we'll see.

That said, I rarely have had any issues with the guys KW gets rid of (Kip Wells, Mike Sirotka, although I still hate the Lee/Pods deal, and the Young/Javy deal can be questioned - but that's another argument) but I often dislike the guys he gets. It's a matter of his talent evaluators and his own evaluations.

Contreras? I dunno. I actually think he'll have a good season - his divorce is out of the way and he can get on with life - but I was against his extension. I felt he was too old.

I won't get into my feelings about the Lee/Pods deal or how it may or may NOT have effected our championship run.

KW/JR have also presided over the gutting of what was one of the best farm systems in the game when KW took over.

Winning the World Series was great. Made some of us hungry for more. Sustaining is a huge part of KW and JR's remit. I know KW would agree with that. Eventually he will have to come to terms with what he has and what he could have had.

Those of us who spend a fair piece of our disposable income on the Sox will have to come to terms with it as well.

Outstanding post. It wont be long before the cell's attendance dips. If the offseason continues in this direction. KW should resign or be fired.

soxyess
12-05-2007, 09:28 AM
According to the article in the Cubune, the Marlins wanted a catching prospect. The Sox didn't have one to offer. It was a deal breaker. Time to move on.

Im sure they would have settled for additional prospects that they could have spun off to another team for a catching prospect. No more excuses.

soxyess
12-05-2007, 09:34 AM
Has anyone thought of the effect KW's misses will have on resigning our Cabrerra? We might be in the same predicament of not having a shortstop.

drewcifer
12-05-2007, 09:46 AM
Has anyone thought of the effect KW's misses will have on resigning our Cabrerra? We might be in the same predicament of not having a shortstop.

No. Why not see if he even plays well and fits in for the 1 year we have him before worrying about that?

rowand21
12-05-2007, 09:49 AM
In this off season I have become a very frustrated sox fan, if we arent going to dish the money out, which Hunter got to much of, then dont make the fans feel we are going to get big named players. We are doing nothing to better the team and something needs to happen, man up and sign Rowand to his 5 year deal, he is a solid outfielder!! The royals are making more moves then we are!!

PennStater98r
12-05-2007, 09:52 AM
We are going to be an afterthought in our division. There is no way that we can compete with the Tigers. I cant believe KW let this one get away!! We have to start questioning his ability to aquire difference makers. How can anyone with a straight face look at our roster and the Tiger's roster and say that we can compete with that team for the division. Not to mention the Indians and Twins. For a team thats two years removed from the WS, I cant believe that we have fallen so fast. Someone has to be held accountable for this mess!! I cant tell you how disappointed I am as a life long fan!!:(::(:

Don't let this kid near the razors or the baby aspirin.

:threadsucks

2008 has not even started yet - and the off season is not over. Instead of worrying about what other teams do with the talent they have and acquire, let's see what happens on the field next year.

Sure it stings that we had a shot at MCab, but crying over spilt milk only does one thing - makes you thirsty while you look like a baby.

soxrme
12-05-2007, 10:03 AM
Accept the reality that we are not the Red Sox, Yankees or Angels. We actually have a budget we work within. We can't afford to have a payroll 160 million +.

I have heard this crap too much. Baseball according to Bud Selig, all the baseball writers including Marrioti (I know you all hate him), and financial guys had the most profitable year is history. The Sox drew almost 3 million again and all we do is hear about money. JR has always said if people come money will be spent. They are talking about a billion $ sale for the cubs. We are a major market, the teams are also splitting money from the Comcast cable deal.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 10:04 AM
No, I'm annoyed that the Sox are incapable of closing a deal.

They couldn't close the deal because they just didn't have the pieces short of trading someone like Jenks or Burly or Vazquez.


I'm annoyed that they will be a .500 team at best in 08.

Me too, but I don't think that offering Sweeney and Anderson (two essentially worthless trade chips) would have had anything to do with that.


You sound very annoyed - what's your reason?

I'm annoyed at the fact that

a.) we have no system
b.) people act like something besides are completely dearth of prospects is the problem with this offseason

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 10:06 AM
I have heard this crap too much. Baseball according to Bud Selig, all the baseball writers including Marrioti (I know you all hate him), and financial guys had the most profitable year is history. The Sox drew almost 3 million again and all we do is hear about money. JR has always said if people come money will be spent. They are talking about a billion $ sale for the cubs. We are a major market, the teams are also splitting money from the Comcast cable deal.

So because

a.) baseball as a whole made money
b) the sox had record attendance to go along with their record high payroll
c.) the cubs may sell their entire franchise for a lot of money
d.) a two-bit cable network televises our games

that automatically means that we shoudl be spending like the 5 richest teams in baseball?

SoxGirl4Life
12-05-2007, 10:32 AM
Don't let this kid near the razors or the baby aspirin.



I think he's gone to school already. We should be hearing from him around 3.

PennStater98r
12-05-2007, 10:36 AM
How many years now have the Sox been rumored to be on the verge of landing some big player, only to come in a close second? Simply put, Detoit just kicked our a - - this offseason, along with everyone else in the league. I am tired of reading rumors about the Sox and want to see results. We got Carlos Quentin and the SS Cabrera,while losing John Garland. Detroit gets Renteria, M.Cabrera, and D-Train without detracting from last year's roster. Our minor leagues are flat out killing us, with limited prospects of any real value. Meanwhile, our major league roster is filled with underachieving, aging, slow, overpaid former stars. We lack at least 2 outfielders and have several other holes. With that said, I am still a fan and hope springs eternal.

First of all, if you're worried that we lost such a great player - as Jon Garland, let's get his name right. Second of all, do we want to go out and get big players - overpaying ridiculously so we can have that bonafide franchise player? Or do we want another World Series with a bunch of role-playing guys that do their job very well?

In 2005 we did not have any player like a M-Cab or A-Rod or even a Torii Hunter. We had the right team to win, and we can still put this together by addressing the needs that we have - CF that can play some D, lead off hitter and bullpen help. Last time I checked, Cabrera addressed none of those needs.

Talking about what we should have done and could have done gets nothing done to improve our current situation. We should talk about what KW can do from 12/5/2007. And btw, Detroit severely overpaid and still has the following:

A 36 year old catcher that's slowing down quite a bit.
A SS playing 1B that has great numbers for a SS, but weak for a 1B.
A light hitting 2B that can hit for Avg and play great D (I like Polanco a lot).
A SS with moderate power that will score 100 runs.
A great, young 3B - but let's wait to see what he does.
A LF that should be a 4th OF now
A CF that could break the record for strikeouts in a season (but a sparkplug no doubt)
A RF with a gimpy knee that played way over his head last year and cooled down at the end of the season
A 39 year old DH that 'roids and is in the twilight of his career

CL that blew 6 saves last year and has a 4.21 ERA
Setup guy who "plays video games"
Oh, and between their CL and two setup guys, ERA over 4 and 9 blown saves.

Starting rotation has Verlander, but he started much hotter than he finished
Has a 43 year old #3 guy in their rotation IF Willis pitches in front of him. That's not to mention that the spot light is on him and his substance that he wipes on balls after the 2006 World Series.
Willis was not what he was in 2005 or 2003. In fact, he's been a .500 or lower pitcher more times in his career than he's had winning seasons.
As for Bonderman and Robertson, I'm not worried about either of them. Bonderman finished last year with a 5.01 ERA and had exactly 1 win ni August and September to go with 6 losses. Robertson finished the season with a 4.76 ERA and had an ERA above 5.00 as late as September 8.

I pose the question - Detroit Who?

DeuceUnit
12-05-2007, 10:40 AM
So because

a.) baseball as a whole made money
b) the sox had record attendance to go along with their record high payroll
c.) the cubs may sell their entire franchise for a lot of money
d.) a two-bit cable network televises our games

that automatically means that we shoudl be spending like the 5 richest teams in baseball?

Let's see. We are 2 years removed from a World Series, have had record attendance over the past couple years and are in the third largest market. I would say that we should be spending like a top 3 team, not a top 5.

rdivaldi
12-05-2007, 10:44 AM
Uh, do you doom and gloomers realize that Maybin and Miller were taken waaaaaaaay before the Sox had a chance to draft, right? Guess that's the price to pay for success, but why let logic and reason get in the way of a good rant...

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 10:45 AM
First of all, if you're worried that we lost such a great player - as Jon Garland, let's get his name right.

I would say gmab, focus on the argument itself, not petty spelling, but then I read your argument. It might be best to focus on correcting spelling.


And btw, Detroit severely overpaid and still has the following:

A 36 year old catcher that's slowing down quite a bit. A Catcher who is still among the best defensive catchers in the league and puts up better #'s than our much younger catcher
A SS playing 1B that has great numbers for a SS, but weak for a 1B. Which is not an issue when the rest of the lineup can hit.
A light hitting 2B that can hit for Avg and play great D (I like Polanco a lot). As opposed to our power-hitting 2B options....
A SS with moderate power that will score 100 runs. I would give Cabrera the nod, but only slightly....
A great, young 3B - but let's wait to see what he does. Gosh, sounds familiar--only their great young 3B is a lot more established as a hitter and plays much much much better D. Sure Crede is better, but will Crede ever play 80 games in a season?
A LF that should be a 4th OF now Either that or no OF at all....And, oh wait, that LF is Miguel Cabrera--a 24 year old superstar who is among the 10 best hitters in baseball
A CF that could break the record for strikeouts in a season (but a sparkplug no doubt) Either that or no CF at all...oh and Granderson is one of the best defensive CF's in baseball
A RF with a gimpy knee that played way over his head last year and cooled down at the end of the season Way over his head? You act like Magglio hasn't been a great hitter his entire career. Even if he regresses to his career avgs he's still a better hitter than JD. And gimpy knee hasn't been an issue since halfway through 2005, when he was healthy again.
A 39 year old DH that 'roids and is in the twilight of his career speculation is fun...so Sheffield's #'s have tailed off how?

CL that blew 6 saves last year and has a 4.21 ERA
Setup guy who "plays video games" are you ****ing serious?
Oh, and between their CL and two setup guys, ERA over 4 and 9 blown saves. our bullpen is...Jenks, Linebrink and....who?



Detroit who? Detroit the team that plans to finish well ahead of us. Hell, I'm not crowning them or anything, but let's not be ridiculous. This is just silly. On the field last year they were light years beyond us, and now they've done everything to improve while we've essentially stood still. Further, our farm system doesn't inspire any confidence.

It's one thing to be optimistic. Quite another to pretend reality isn't happening.

For instance: I am OPTIMISTIC Kenny will patch most of the holes with quality players. I am OPTIMISTIC we will finish above .500. I am not foolish enough to believe our rotation or bullpen is anywhere near Cleveland's or Detroits, or that now with Detroit's lineup improving immensely and Cleveland's remaining excellent we are in any position to contend for the AL Central in 2008

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 10:53 AM
Uh, do you doom and gloomers realize that Maybin and Miller were taken waaaaaaaay before the Sox had a chance to draft, right? Guess that's the price to pay for success, but why let logic and reason get in the way of a good rant...

It's not about Maybin and Miller specifically. It's about the fact that if we perhaps had one or two more prospects that could be rated among the tops in baseball (which we don't. We have Gio and.......no one), then we might have been able to make an offer the Marlins would have at least considered. Rick Porcello is an example of a stud prospect we passed on due to financial concern.

Do you think a package of Danks, Gio, Broadway, Fields and Porcello might have looked slightly better than Danks, Gio, Broadway, Fields, and a load of crappy C+ prospects? Maybe, maybe not.

Apparently this deal hinged on a catching prospect, so perhaps we were out of it from the beginning, but I'm not really hung up on losing Cabrera. I'm hung up on the fact that aside from Gio, the only valuable players we have to offer are ones we're relying on for next year to produce at the MLB level...which is pretty sad to me and doesn't bode well for our system

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 10:54 AM
Let's see. We are 2 years removed from a World Series,

And zero years removed from our worst season in two decades

have had record attendance over the past couple years Yep, it's almost like our 2007 payroll should have been a record high!!!

Oh wait, it was


and are in the third largest market.hmmmm...does anyone see anything wrong with this claim?

I would say that we should be spending like a top 3 team, not a top 5.Or this claim?

JNS
12-05-2007, 10:58 AM
Holding KW responsible for a move that another team made is ludicrous.

Go ahead and jump off the ledge, dark clouds. Stop spamming WSI and give me more room on the bandwagon.

:kukoo:

I didn't realize this site was only for optimistic posts. I thought that was what Cubs fans did - last time I checked most Sox fans lived in the reality-based community and I'm happy to see many of them still do.

Glad everything is peachy in your Sox-World. Enjoy.

asindc
12-05-2007, 11:06 AM
Im sure they would have settled for additional prospects that they could have spun off to another team for a catching prospect. No more excuses.

How can you be "sure" of that? Put another way, how do you know KW did not approach this transaction exactly the way you wanted him to, but Fla just preferred Det's offer? None of know how KW approached it in the final hours, including me. You MIGHT be right. But how can you be "sure?"

JNS
12-05-2007, 11:06 AM
They couldn't close the deal because they just didn't have the pieces short of trading someone like Jenks or Burly or Vazquez.



Me too, but I don't think that offering Sweeney and Anderson (two essentially worthless trade chips) would have had anything to do with that.



I'm annoyed at the fact that

a.) we have no system
b.) people act like something besides are completely dearth of prospects is the problem with this offseason

Actually, I agree with you, except for your point that our only problem is a lack of prospects. It's also the constraints (as another post put it) that JR puts on the team. And the blather and bluster that KW delivers without delivering on the players we need to compete. The Hunter situation was not about prospects - it was about JR's ongoing refusal to spend a nickel to make a dime - shortsighted and very bad policy in the sprts world - at least in a sport without a cap, such as baseball. he can sorta get away with it with the Bulls because of the cap.

So yes, a dearth of prospects and a gutted system is one of the problems. management and ownership is another. The two are not mutually exclusive.

voodoochile
12-05-2007, 11:09 AM
So because

a.) baseball as a whole made money
b) the sox had record attendance to go along with their record high payroll
c.) the cubs may sell their entire franchise for a lot of money
d.) a two-bit cable network televises our games

that automatically means that we shoudl be spending like the 5 richest teams in baseball?

Pick a side, Fquaye...:wink:

JNS
12-05-2007, 11:09 AM
Outstanding post. It wont be long before the cell's attendance dips. If the offseason continues in this direction. KW should resign or be fired.

Thanks - nice to read something nice instead of all the silly "get off the ledge" stuff.

A lot of these guys ought to be on the North Side - that's where everything is sunny all the time, even when they lose 90 games.

DeuceUnit
12-05-2007, 11:09 AM
And zero years removed from our worst season in two decades

Yep, it's almost like our 2007 payroll should have been a record high!!!

Oh wait, it was

hmmmm...does anyone see anything wrong with this claim?

Or this claim?

Maybe instead of being a smart ass you should bless me with your knowledge of how and why the Sox shouldn't spend money like a New York or L.A. Record payroll means nothing. It's all relative. Record payroll for the Devil Rays would be about 35 million a year. Does that mean they are going out and being super aggressive???? So the Sox have started to spend like they should and we shouldn't think of raising our payroll anymore??? I know this off season is far from over but I am sick of hearing money being an issue.

voodoochile
12-05-2007, 11:12 AM
I didn't realize this site was only for optimistic posts. I thought that was what Cubs fans did - last time I checked most Sox fans lived in the reality-based community and I'm happy to see many of them still do.

Glad everything is peachy in your Sox-World. Enjoy.

Thanks, Frater and I appreciate your kind wishes...

rdivaldi
12-05-2007, 11:15 AM
I didn't realize this site was only for optimistic posts. I thought that was what Cubs fans did - last time I checked most Sox fans lived in the reality-based community and I'm happy to see many of them still do.

If you think your posts and the other newbies polluting these boards with their stereotypical ranting and whining constitutes "reality", then I suggest taking a vacation and some therapy.

I'll get you started:

:prozac

voodoochile
12-05-2007, 11:16 AM
Thanks - nice to read something nice instead of all the silly "get off the ledge" stuff.

A lot of these guys ought to be on the North Side - that's where everything is sunny all the time, even when they lose 90 games.

Now hold on there, buckaroo. Shouldn't we at least wait until the Sox actually are in the process of losing 90 games before firing people?

I mean almost everything that could go wrong last year actually did go wrong. Injuries, fall offs, etc. Even a small bounce back by the fall offs should bring the Sox up to 80 wins or so. Any solid production from Fields and Richar to go with it and the Sox might be a WC contender (if the pitching holds up).

You 100% sure that everyone who tanked it last season is done?

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 11:17 AM
Maybe instead of being a smart ass you should bless me with your knowledge of how and why the Sox shouldn't spend money like a New York or L.A. Record payroll means nothing. It's all relative. Record payroll for the Devil Rays would be about 35 million a year. Does that mean they are going out and being super aggressive???? So the Sox have started to spend like they should and we shouldn't think of raising our payroll anymore??? I know this off season is far from over but I am sick of hearing money being an issue.

How about the fact that we play in a top 3 market is irrelevant, b/c we share that top 3 market with a vastly more popular team?

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 11:18 AM
Pick a side, Fquaye...:wink:

I think JR's spending is slightly stingy, but I think this whole "we should spend like a major market team because of all these irrelevant reasons" is pretty asinine

voodoochile
12-05-2007, 11:21 AM
I think JR's spending is slightly stingy, but I think this whole "we should spend like a major market team because of all these irrelevant reasons" is pretty asinine

See for the ledge leaners the two are intertwined. Can't draft, can't trade, don't spend like we should... the system is broken and I'm not going to stand it for one further day! Power to the fans! Fire KW! Burn JR in effigy! Take back the night! Someone contact US Cellular about the way their name is being abused...

It's pretty freaking funny...

Hitmen77
12-05-2007, 11:22 AM
Going into this offseason, I sure hope KW realized that there was a good chance that they wouldn't land Hunter or M. Cabrera. Yeah, we were aggressive in our pursuit of Torii and hopeful that 5/75 would land him. But with so many teams out there with deep pockets spending crazy money, i'm not exactly shocked that some team came in with the type of deal that the Angels wound up giving him.

Likewise with M Cabrera, KW had to know going into this that odds were probably against us landing him. Yes, he would make a run at him, but he had to know that he'd be up against other teams with deeper pockets and/or farm systems.

If Kenny really hinged all of our offseason hopes on landing Hunter and/or M. Cabrera, then he is a fool. That may have been his most optimistic "Plan A", but it's only Dec. 5 and I'm not ready to throw in the towel and cry that the 2008 season is ruined. I'm hopeful that the Sox were smart enough to realize that there was a good possibility that we wouldn't get our primary targets and that we still had plans to bolster our roster.

....now on the other hand, if 3/31/08 rolls around and our lineup is as it is today with Jerry Owens as our starting CF and there have been no other upgrades to this team. Then, I'll be pretty ticked off.

spiffie
12-05-2007, 11:22 AM
So because

a.) baseball as a whole made money
b) the sox had record attendance to go along with their record high payroll
c.) the cubs may sell their entire franchise for a lot of money
d.) a two-bit cable network televises our games

that automatically means that we shoudl be spending like the 5 richest teams in baseball?
Of course, the Sox are part owners of that two-bit cable network, a network that has seen huge ratings the last three years for one of its baseball teams (2005, 2006 Sox, 2007 Cubs).

And we spent like the 4th richest team last year, with a payroll higher than everyone but the Yankees, Red Sox, and Mets. Even factoring in the money we got in trades our realistic payroll was still in the top 7, possibly higher depending on if other teams had incoming payments as well.

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 11:23 AM
Of course, the Sox are part owners of that two-bit cable network, a network that has seen huge ratings the last three years for one of its baseball teams (2005, 2006 Sox, 2007 Cubs).

And we spent like the 4th richest team last year, with a payroll higher than everyone but the Yankees, Red Sox, and Mets. Even factoring in the money we got in trades our realistic payroll was still in the top 7, possibly higher depending on if other teams had incoming payments as well.

The Cubs had a higher payroll, and if I'm not just ridiculously mistaken (which I doubt I am) I would suspect the Dodgers, Angels and Braves had a higher payroll.

I don't know where you're getting your numbers from here, but I really doubt that a 100 mil payroll + some change was the 4th highest in baseball

BadBobbyJenks
12-05-2007, 11:24 AM
Im not going to go through this whole thread, but one thing that we need to start hanging on kenny is the minor league system. It is an embarassment. We continually make terrible decisions in drafts and our best prospects dont project to be more than decent to good major leaguers. So actually yes we can put some blame on KW for not getting cabrera here because he has not built up the system to land big fish.

Im one of the biggest KW fans in the world, but the minor system needs major work NOW.



But at the same time the season is not over before it started. Like the other thread points out there are plenty of centerfielders still out there. There are still pitchers coming off injuries on the market that could make big impacts as well. Its foolish to bury the sox in december, but its even more foolish to carry the cup of kool aid and drop at kenny's knees

UserNameBlank
12-05-2007, 11:24 AM
I think we could have gotten Cabrera/Willis for Fields, Gio, Danks, Broadway, and Anderson/Sweeny. I don't think they would have had to give up Jenks.

Maybin looks like he could be another Carlos Beltran. Fields looks like a 40-HR 3B capable of posting an OPS near 1.000 with speed. Both of these guys are studs, but Maybin is also an outstanding defender at his position. He also made his MLB debut as a 20-year-old, but yet Fields who is 4 years older has already had success. I think you could conceiveably call Fields and Maybin a wash here from a talent perspective, but if say the Tigers had both players in their farm, who is to say which one they would have wanted? My guess is they would have demanded both. Why not?

Miller has the stuff to be a dominant lefty ace. If Gio or Danks threw in the mid to upper nineties then with the inclusion of a couple other pitchers we may have very well landed Cabrera. But, they don't. Miller has real superstar potential if he can stay healthy, plus he is ready right now. None of our guys can say that. By the looks of the deal, they demanded three more pitchers to absorb the loss of Miller if something goes wrong. Maybe a couple of our guys would have been safer, but the Marlins aren't going to pass on one possible top-of-the-rotation starter in order to take two possible #3's. If we're going to make up for a potential superstar we'd have to include one ourselves. I don't care what any of the "baseball writers" say; Jenks would had to have been in that deal for us to compete. And if we had dealt him, there would be a real **** storm here at WSI.

There is a good chance that two or three years from now, even if Florida had the money to spend, they wouldn't do Maybin for Cabrera straight up because the difference in production wouldn't be worth the difference in price. Then on top of that they got 5 other players.

...KW is now batting one-for-three.

Actually, Kenny is 2-for-4. He got one Cabrera and a Linebrink while missing out on a Hunter and another Cabrera. If Rowand is now in his plans I hope he makes it 2-for-5.

The fact is, KW has at least two starters from last (and previous) seasons- Crede and Uribe - that probably should go, and unless something comes out of the woodwork, not a lot out there to get for them. So we may have to just give them away. Great.

That's what happens when players get hurt and lazy. This doesn't bother me though because we have a SS to replace Uribe who is light years better and we have a 3B to replace Crede with a potentially colassal bat. His D needs work, but I think he's going to improve. He's certainly athletic, he has a strong work ethic, and he's finally going to have a position.

KW has now been GM for seven years. His aggregate record is not looking good, going back to the Ritchie trade. In that time we have one WS - fantastic, unforgettable, a life's dream, but it's in the past - a bunch of first division finishes, and a lot of disappointment. He does bear responsibility.

One WS in 7 years is pretty good. John Schuerholz, who prior to his retirement was widely regarded as the best GM in the game, has two titles in 26 years. If Kenny captures another sometime within the next 18, he already has Schuerholz beat, since a WS is the ultimate goal. Still, even though John has only won two titles, he's had some damn good teams, especially with the Braves. I'm 100% sure that many Braves fans have thrown their arms up in the air before, blaming him for their failures and using some of his moves that didn't work out for ammunition. Again, Schuerholz was the best. The fans don't know what they're talking about most of the time. Not that I do, but I think I have a better idea than some. It's just not as easy as some perceive it to be.

If you don't believe the players are dogging it, and are doing the best they can, then yes, the buck does stop with KW and JR. If they think that their manager is failing or bears responsibility for their situation, they can fire him. Nobody can fire JR, and only one person can fire KW; JR. So yes, the buck stops with them.

And if you honestly believe that KW wants to put the best team out there possible, then you have to ultimately hold the players responsible because neither KW or JR can swing the bat or take the mound. We can go round and round with this.

As for the distinction between JR and KW, well, there is none. If KW is willing to work within the constraints that JR sets, and that prevents him from putting together a championship team, well, he can quit, otherwise it's on him as well.

Yes, Kenny could develop a loser, woe-is-me attitude and quit like a *****. Or he could do the best he can. Kenny doesn't get a lot of respect. Even after the '05 season he didn't get GM of the year. Shapiro got after years of rebuilding. Kenny doesn't have that luxury. His job is tougher, yet he doesn't get the respect.

But in the end his gig isn't just finding good players...

I already told you why. We got outbid by two prospects that, if we were in the Tigers' shoes during those drafts, we would have NOT gone over slot to sign. So there you go. Again.

You say that JR's POV is "different." How so? Does that make it right?

It's a difference in philosopy and sometimes, like right now and last year during the whole "we won't go over 3 years for Buehrle" fiasco, it really gets ****ing old. But, he's been hurt by bad contracts before so it's easy to see why he's so cautious. The thing is though, the spectre of the bad, team-crippling contract is unavoidable in the game today, unless you are a small market club.

You mention the constraints that JR places on the Sox. Do those constraints make sense? Do they jibe with JR's professed love of the team? These are legitimate questions. In most organizations the ultimate responsibility is with the bosses.

Yes, in some ways those constraints do make sense to some people. I've argued again and again in favor of doing whatever you have to do to pick up the consensus best available player in the draft. The others who have argued against me have their own views. They side with JR, but I don't. That doesn't mean that they aren't Sox fans; they're diehards just like me, and just like JR; they just see it from a different perspective.

So I agree with you that this is mainly on JR's shoulders. I think he's a bad owner. But KW is complicit. He enables the guy and his flawed and shortsighted method.

Kenny does the best job he can within the parameters he is given. What is it about 1 World Series in 7 tries and 7 blockbuster trades (Wells, Colon, the first Alomar and Everett deals, the Garcia trade, the Thome trade, Vazquez trade) to net us veterans at the cost of prospects that says he's a bad GM? I fail to follow. I try to look at this objectively as possible, and a lot of what I think differs from KW's thinking, but I can see that he is NOT a bad GM. If he was I wouldn't be defending him.

As for the trades, well, the jury is still very much out on Danks, Gio, Floyd, and Richar. I'm sure some of the (Gio?) will be great, but none of them have been close to impact players yet. So we'll see.

Not every player has to be a superstar. Ideally, he just has to play above average defense and provide above average offense at his position. We do need superstars though, and Kenny has no problem going after them. It's just sometimes more difficult for him.

...I often dislike the guys he gets. It's a matter of his talent evaluators and his own evaluations.

His talent evaluators are doing a good job, but you are entitled to your own opinion.

KW/JR have also presided over the gutting of what was one of the best farm systems in the game when KW took over.

What do you think Detroit is doing RIGHT NOW??? In two years they have gutted their system. But, they went over slot of get Porcello next year. He could be in Double A next year. And I bet if someone else falls this year the Tigers will snap them up, and when the prospect lists come out, whoever it is that the Tigers pick at the bottom of the 2008 draft will be ranked near if not above whoever the Sox pick at 9. Detroit will rebuild their farm quickly. Get used to it.

Winning the World Series was great. Made some of us hungry for more. Sustaining is a huge part of KW and JR's remit. I know KW would agree with that. Eventually he will have to come to terms with what he has and what he could have had.

Kenny isn't an idiot. He knows we're in a bad spot, and he knows we were even before the Cabrera trade. I'm guessing that is why two of the four position players he has targeted so far were in their mid-twenties. He'll put a decent club on the field. We probably aren't going to finish any higher than third, but anything is possible since he's not going to pack it in. If nothing else, I hope you enjoy Josh Fields, Carlos Quentin, Danny Richar, Gio Gonzalez, Bobby Jenks, John Danks, and Mark Buerhle because that is the new core.

AZChiSoxFan
12-05-2007, 11:26 AM
Yeah. That really really sucks they got a 24 year old superstar and a former Cy Young candidate for 2 prospects who wouldn't even have made the roster and a few other farmhands.

What a bummer for a team hoping to contend next year.

I'd be SO ****ing pissed if I were a Tiger fan.

No. Wait. Check that. I mean if I were a White Sox fan. Which I am.

We're ****ed for pretty much the forseeable future. Dombrowski made a ****ing steal of a deal and the Tigers will be sitting pretty in our division for a long long time barring freak injuries.

edit: and for the record, anyone who knows anything about my posting history knows I'm anything but a dark cloud. I'm generally in favor of Kenny's moves and think he knows what he's doing, but the fact is we're ****ed right now with no hope for contention and no farm system.
We are ****ed ****ed ****ed ****ed ****ed

I totally agree. I think the Sox need to do what Florida is doing and get rid of anyone who has any value at all (Veterans) and build towards a future surrounding Fields, Gio and Broadway. Didn't the Marlins fire sale after the 97 WS bring them the players that lead them to the WS in 2003?

Time for KW to move on to plan 1W

fquaye149
12-05-2007, 11:27 AM
I totally agree. I think the Sox need to do what Florida is doing and get rid of anyone who has any value at all (Veterans) and build towards a future surrounding Fields, Gio and Broadway. Didn't the Marlins fire sale after the 97 WS bring them the players that lead them to the WS in 2003?

I wouldn't go so far as a fire sale, but we definitely don't need any "win now" moves.

any one-year contracts or trades of prospects for veterans are extremely ill-advised in my opinion.

spiffie
12-05-2007, 11:30 AM
Now hold on there, buckaroo. Shouldn't we at least wait until the Sox actually are in the process of losing 90 games before firing people?

I mean almost everything that could go wrong last year actually did go wrong. Injuries, fall offs, etc. Even a small bounce back by the fall offs should bring the Sox up to 80 wins or so. Any solid production from Fields and Richar to go with it and the Sox might be a WC contender (if the pitching holds up).

You 100% sure that everyone who tanked it last season is done?
You throw in that parenthetical when it deserves to be in 40 point font. Our lineup is one all-star caliber pitcher, one guy who had one good year in the last 4, an aging pitcher with injury troubles and what is becoming a troublesome knack for not being able to play well unless everything else in his world is perfect, a young pitcher who gassed out at 100 innings, and a gaping void in the 5 spot. And a bullpen with 1, maybe 2 solid arms depending on which Linebrink shows up.

I don't think everyone who tanked last year is done, but I suspect Thome's production will drop a little due to age, Konerko will increase but who knows how it will be spread out over the year, Dye should be somewhat improved but how much impact will that have? We're still looking right now at an OF of Dye/Owens/? (Sweeney, Anderson in CF and Owens in LF, Fields in LF, Sweeney and Anderson).

I expect some things will be better this year. Hopefully Toby Hall's shoulder will be healed, and AJ can get more days off and probably bump his production. A healthy Dye should produce something akin to his 2005 season, maybe a bit better. And Cabrera is a major improvement over Uribe. I see improvement. But honestly right now 80 wins looks like the top line for this team without not one but multiple major moves. As it is constructed they simply don't appear to have the horses on the mound unless a perfect storm happens of Danks becoming lights out AND one of our rookies somehow stepping up and throwing ROY caliber ball for 180-200 innings.

spiffie
12-05-2007, 11:32 AM
The Cubs had a higher payroll, and if I'm not just ridiculously mistaken (which I doubt I am) I would suspect the Dodgers, Angels and Braves had a higher payroll.

I don't know where you're getting your numbers from here, but I really doubt that a 100 mil payroll + some change was the 4th highest in baseball
http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2007

I first used Wikipedia, which had the Sox in 4th, but this has the Angels ahead of them by $600,000. The Cubs had a lower payroll last year due to backloading of deals. They actually had the 8th highest payroll overall.

voodoochile
12-05-2007, 11:34 AM
You throw in that parenthetical when it deserves to be in 40 point font. Our lineup is one all-star caliber pitcher, one guy who had one good year in the last 4, an aging pitcher with injury troubles and what is becoming a troublesome knack for not being able to play well unless everything else in his world is perfect, a young pitcher who gassed out at 100 innings, and a gaping void in the 5 spot. And a bullpen with 1, maybe 2 solid arms depending on which Linebrink shows up.

I don't think everyone who tanked last year is done, but I suspect Thome's production will drop a little due to age, Konerko will increase but who knows how it will be spread out over the year, Dye should be somewhat improved but how much impact will that have? We're still looking right now at an OF of Dye/Owens/? (Sweeney, Anderson in CF and Owens in LF, Fields in LF, Sweeney and Anderson).

I expect some things will be better this year. Hopefully Toby Hall's shoulder will be healed, and AJ can get more days off and probably bump his production. A healthy Dye should produce something akin to his 2005 season, maybe a bit better. And Cabrera is a major improvement over Uribe. I see improvement. But honestly right now 80 wins looks like the top line for this team without not one but multiple major moves. As it is constructed they simply don't appear to have the horses on the mound unless a perfect storm happens of Danks becoming lights out AND one of our rookies somehow stepping up and throwing ROY caliber ball for 180-200 innings.

What the heck, anything's possible and of course the off season isn't over. If the Sox add one move veteran pitcher and a solid veteran OF player, then any bounce back by the other players will be magnified. Oh and Dye may have a MUCH better season than last when he failed to hit for the entire first half...

balke
12-05-2007, 11:41 AM
What the heck, anything's possible and of course the off season isn't over. If the Sox add one move veteran pitcher and a solid veteran OF player, then any bounce back by the other players will be magnified. Oh and Dye may have a MUCH better season than last when he failed to hit for the entire first half...

No doubt. I'm a little upset Kenny doesn't think he can get Jones. I mean I really see this as the last big season for the Sox before they rebuild. They have the ability to sign a huge 1 year contract for CF. Jones can prove himself for his next paycheck, and the Sox can go into next season strong. He can also sign a 1 year for a pitcher, and use his minor leaguers at the deadline to fill whatever holes pop-up.


That's my only rant. Kenny will do something, and the Sox will be better. Everyone just needs to lean back from the ledge.

spiffie
12-05-2007, 11:42 AM
What the heck, anything's possible and of course the off season isn't over. If the Sox add one move veteran pitcher and a solid veteran OF player, then any bounce back by the other players will be magnified. Oh and Dye may have a MUCH better season than last when he failed to hit for the entire first half...
It's not over, that's why I said if they make multiple moves anything can happen. Honestly, I'm not even all that worried about the OF, especially if KW and the team change their mind and stick Fields in left, sure he won't be great, but it would get him and Crede in the lineup together.

As for Dye, I would expect something hopefully around his September numbers when he 256/346/489/835. Considering he's only topped 900 in OPS twice in his career I'd be happy if he were to get those up a little more and hit that for 2008. It would help.

But in the end I'm just not seeing it pitching wise. The keys to the season rest on Contreras and Danks. If they both pull it together and have BIG years, then the Sox have a chance, especially if they pick up a veteran fifth starter. But that seems like a mighty thin thread to hang the season on. I hope its wrong. I love watching Contreras when he's on his game, and I think Danks has potential one day to be a decent #3-4 starter. But I don't think he's there yet.

voodoochile
12-05-2007, 11:43 AM
No doubt. I'm a little upset Kenny doesn't think he can get Jones. I mean I really see this as the last big season for the Sox before they rebuild. They have the ability to sign a huge 1 year contract for CF. Jones can prove himself for his next paycheck, and the Sox can go into next season strong. He can also sign a 1 year for a pitcher, and use his minor leaguers at the deadline to fill whatever holes pop-up.


That's my only rant. Kenny will do something, and the Sox will be better. Everyone just needs to lean back from the ledge.

**** that...

JUMP!

JNS
12-05-2007, 11:43 AM
Maybin looks like he could be another Carlos Beltran. Fields looks like a 40-HR 3B capable of posting an OPS near 1.000 with speed. Both of these guys are studs, but Maybin is also an outstanding defender at his position. He also made his MLB debut as a 20-year-old, but yet Fields who is 4 years older has already had success. I think you could conceiveably call Fields and Maybin a wash here from a talent perspective, but if say the Tigers had both players in their farm, who is to say which one they would have wanted? My guess is they would have demanded both. Why not?

Miller has the stuff to be a dominant lefty ace. If Gio or Danks threw in the mid to upper nineties then with the inclusion of a couple other pitchers we may have very well landed Cabrera. But, they don't. Miller has real superstar potential if he can stay healthy, plus he is ready right now. None of our guys can say that. By the looks of the deal, they demanded three more pitchers to absorb the loss of Miller if something goes wrong. Maybe a couple of our guys would have been safer, but the Marlins aren't going to pass on one possible top-of-the-rotation starter in order to take two possible #3's. If we're going to make up for a potential superstar we'd have to include one ourselves. I don't care what any of the "baseball writers" say; Jenks would had to have been in that deal for us to compete. And if we had dealt him, there would be a real **** storm here at WSI.

There is a good chance that two or three years from now, even if Florida had the money to spend, they wouldn't do Maybin for Cabrera straight up because the difference in production wouldn't be worth the difference in price. Then on top of that they got 5 other players.



Actually, Kenny is 2-for-4. He got one Cabrera and a Linebrink while missing out on a Hunter and another Cabrera. If Rowand is now in his plans I hope he makes it 2-for-5.



That's what happens when players get hurt and lazy. This doesn't bother me though because we have a SS to replace Uribe who is light years better and we have a 3B to replace Crede with a potentially colassal bat. His D needs work, but I think he's going to improve. He's certainly athletic, he has a strong work ethic, and he's finally going to have a position.



One WS in 7 years is pretty good. John Schuerholz, who prior to his retirement was widely regarded as the best GM in the game, has two titles in 26 years. If Kenny captures another sometime within the next 18, he already has Schuerholz beat, since a WS is the ultimate goal. Still, even though John has only won two titles, he's had some damn good teams, especially with the Braves. I'm 100% sure that many Braves fans have thrown their arms up in the air before, blaming him for their failures and using some of his moves that didn't work out for ammunition. Again, Schuerholz was the best. The fans don't know what they're talking about most of the time. Not that I do, but I think I have a better idea than some. It's just not as easy as some perceive it to be.



And if you honestly believe that KW wants to put the best team out there possible, then you have to ultimately hold the players responsible because neither KW or JR can swing the bat or take the mound. We can go round and round with this.



Yes, Kenny could develop a loser, woe-is-me attitude and quit like a *****. Or he could do the best he can. Kenny doesn't get a lot of respect. Even after the '05 season he didn't get GM of the year. Shapiro got after years of rebuilding. Kenny doesn't have that luxury. His job is tougher, yet he doesn't get the respect.



I already told you why. We got outbid by two prospects that, if we were in the Tigers' shoes during those drafts, we would have NOT gone over slot to sign. So there you go. Again.



It's a difference in philosopy and sometimes, like right now and last year during the whole "we won't go over 3 years for Buehrle" fiasco, it really gets ****ing old. But, he's been hurt by bad contracts before so it's easy to see why he's so cautious. The thing is though, the spectre of the bad, team-crippling contract is unavoidable in the game today, unless you are a small market club.



Yes, in some ways those constraints do make sense to some people. I've argued again and again in favor of doing whatever you have to do to pick up the consensus best available player in the draft. The others who have argued against me have their own views. They side with JR, but I don't. That doesn't mean that they aren't Sox fans; they're diehards just like me, and just like JR; they just see it from a different perspective.



Kenny does the best job he can within the parameters he is given. What is it about 1 World Series in 7 tries and 7 blockbuster trades (Wells, Colon, the first Alomar and Everett deals, the Garcia trade, the Thome trade, Vazquez trade) to net us veterans at the cost of prospects that says he's a bad GM? I fail to follow. I try to look at this objectively as possible, and a lot of what I think differs from KW's thinking, but I can see that he is NOT a bad GM. If he was I wouldn't be defending him.



Not every player has to be a superstar. Ideally, he just has to play above average defense and provide above average offense at his position. We do need superstars though, and Kenny has no problem going after them. It's just sometimes more difficult for him.



His talent evaluators are doing a good job, but you are entitled to your own opinion.



What do you think Detroit is doing RIGHT NOW??? In two years they have gutted their system. But, they went over slot of get Porcello next year. He could be in Double A next year. And I bet if someone else falls this year the Tigers will snap them up, and when the prospect lists come out, whoever it is that the Tigers pick at the bottom of the 2008 draft will be ranked near if not above whoever the Sox pick at 9. Detroit will rebuild their farm quickly. Get used to it.



Kenny isn't an idiot. He knows we're in a bad spot, and he knows we were even before the Cabrera trade. I'm guessing that is why two of the four position players he has targeted so far were in their mid-twenties. He'll put a decent club on the field. We probably aren't going to finish any higher than third, but anything is possible since he's not going to pack it in. If nothing else, I hope you enjoy Josh Fields, Carlos Quentin, Danny Richar, Gio Gonzalez, Bobby Jenks, John Danks, and Mark Buerhle because that is the new core.

Outstanding post. I disagree with some of it, but you have thought it out well. I wish there was more of this sort of discussion going on.

There certainly are some mitigating factors, not the least of which is that the Tigers had those prospects because they lost something like 350 games in four years.

In the end a lot of this goes back to style - JR has a paranoid management style - not to his loyal employees (it took him how many years to dump Krause?) - but to the rest of the world. Sox fans tend to be fairly smart (notwithstanding afew posters on these lists) and IMO they deserve more than the "we want to win now" blather. A little bit of reflection and straight talk from KW would go a long way. But hey - it's JR and KW against the world, so why bother, even if we do pay their salaries.

As for the specifics, I'll keep my powder dry on Linebrink along with the others. he may be what he was in 06 and before, or he may be what he was in 07, in which case KW has thrown another $20 mil out the window.

Your point about Schuerholz is well taken, but he was running a medium market team - even a small market. The Sox should have more disposable income.

Bottom line (for me): I am unhappy with the way KW runs his show. Dombrowski is the model for me - and not just with the Tigers, but wiht the Marlins and the Expos as well - he's won everywhere he's been irrespective of the market size, quality of ownership, etc.

The whole thing about sitting on ledges is ridiculous, but Sox management needs to do better.

If KW knows he's in a bad spot, he perhaps ought to reflect a little more on what got him there and how to get out of it, instead of getting defensive and hostile, as he often does. This does not mean he's a quitter or depressed - just honest and realistic.

voodoochile
12-05-2007, 11:47 AM
It's not over, that's why I said if they make multiple moves anything can happen. Honestly, I'm not even all that worried about the OF, especially if KW and the team change their mind and stick Fields in left, sure he won't be great, but it would get him and Crede in the lineup together.

As for Dye, I would expect something hopefully around his September numbers when he 256/346/489/835. Considering he's only topped 900 in OPS twice in his career I'd be happy if he were to get those up a little more and hit that for 2008. It would help.

But in the end I'm just not seeing it pitching wise. The keys to the season rest on Contreras and Danks. If they both pull it together and have BIG years, then the Sox have a chance, especially if they pick up a veteran fifth starter. But that seems like a mighty thin thread to hang the season on. I hope its wrong. I love watching Contreras when he's on his game, and I think Danks has potential one day to be a decent #3-4 starter. But I don't think he's there yet.

Well, we're going to find out about Danks. Also, I'm very high on Fields and Richar and not as unconvinced about Owens as some people are. I don't know if he's going to be a major league contributor or not, but his final month of the season gives me some hope. Just hope this Quinten (sp) guy is as good as his hype and the Sox acquired a big bat to help over the next few years.

voodoochile
12-05-2007, 11:49 AM
Oh and I guess this thread qualifies...

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/winningugly/showerhead.GIF

spiffie
12-05-2007, 11:54 AM
Well, we're going to find out about Danks. Also, I'm very high on Fields and Richar and not as unconvinced about Owens as some people are. I don't know if he's going to be a major league contributor or not, but his final month of the season gives me some hope. Just hope this Quinten (sp) guy is as good as his hype and the Sox acquired a big bat to help over the next few years.
Oops, I did forget about Quentin. I assume that, when healthy, he would slot in barring other acquisitions as the starting LF. I do like that move. Sure, Carter seems like he has potential, but Quentin seems much closer to realizing it at a position we have a need at.

I like Richar, but I don't see him as a major contributor. If we're lucky he gives us something akin to Iguchi's numbers. As for Owens, he is what he is. He's fast, not very good at hitting 2B's, and hopefully can remember how he used to get on base in the minors.

If everything breaks nicely, I could see us doing well I guess. But I can't envision us doing better than all the teams in our division, or well enough to beat out one of the Evil Empires for the WC. That's the problem. I see this as a team who could be good, maybe, if things all break right, but even then its hard to see them having a shot at the playoffs. I can't see a rotation of Buehrle, Vazquez, Conteras, Danks, Gio/Broadway/Floyd/? winning the 95 or more games needed for the playoffs.

JNS
12-05-2007, 11:54 AM
Now hold on there, buckaroo. Shouldn't we at least wait until the Sox actually are in the process of losing 90 games before firing people?

I mean almost everything that could go wrong last year actually did go wrong. Injuries, fall offs, etc. Even a small bounce back by the fall offs should bring the Sox up to 80 wins or so. Any solid production from Fields and Richar to go with it and the Sox might be a WC contender (if the pitching holds up).

You 100% sure that everyone who tanked it last season is done?

Actually, I agree. But it's also true that the 05 team wasn't as good as the record indicated. To his credit, KW said as much right after the WS.

If KW gets up on a podium tomorrrow and says that the WS may be a year or two away, my respect would increase greatly. Yesterday Ozzie said that if the lineup is what it is now on opening day he's not happy either. I can relate to that sort of honesty - it's one of the reasons I lkie Ozzie. he doesn't shove sunshine up one's booty.

I do expect more activity - but many of us are tired of the JR method of nipping around the edges. Time to get some difference makers - the kind of guys we just failed to land, Orlando Cabrera excepted - and not the usual maybes and possibles.

I don't see any reason why the Sox can't behave like the Red Sox. Seriously - the Sox market is as big as the Red Sox, even with the Cubs taking most of downstate Illinois.

I'm more than happy to await developments - but that's what we have been doing and now the Winter meetings are here - and in the meantime I reserve the right to grouse. Sorry if it offends some people.

PennStater98r
12-05-2007, 12:00 PM
I would say gmab, focus on the argument itself, not petty spelling, but then I read your argument. It might be best to focus on correcting spelling.




Detroit who? Detroit the team that plans to finish well ahead of us. Hell, I'm not crowning them or anything, but let's not be ridiculous. This is just silly. On the field last year they were light years beyond us, and now they've done everything to improve while we've essentially stood still. Further, our farm system doesn't inspire any confidence.

It's one thing to be optimistic. Quite another to pretend reality isn't happening.

For instance: I am OPTIMISTIC Kenny will patch most of the holes with quality players. I am OPTIMISTIC we will finish above .500. I am not foolish enough to believe our rotation or bullpen is anywhere near Cleveland's or Detroits, or that now with Detroit's lineup improving immensely and Cleveland's remaining excellent we are in any position to contend for the AL Central in 2008

First of all, it's not a matter of correcting spelling - it's a matter of knowing the heroes to which you sing praises. If I thought that Jon Garland was a great loss and I wanted my peers to know it, I'd damn well get his name right.

That said, let me run it down again, and understand this is was not a a comparison to the White Sox. It was simply calling out what Detroit is.

C - Ivan Rodriguez - his reputation for defense is still based on status from the late '90s when he was throwing out 65-70+ guys a season. Last year he threw out just over 40. That's not to mention that he's been catching for 17 years, and it's going to catch up to him - already has started catching up to him. Don't give me this nonsense either about him calling great games because it certainly didn't show last year. Verlander was the only guy on the staff that had a season worth squat. A.J. hit .263/.309/.403 last year with an OPS+ of 83. I-Rod - .281/.294/.420 with an OPS+ of 85. You're right those are much better.

1B - It is an issue when you have Carlos Guillen playing 1B and his career high power numbers are 21 HR with 102 RBI. His career high numbers are 21 HR with 100 RBI.

2B - Polanco - This is not a comparison. BTW, I heard that Bedard and Roberts are on the block from Baltimore.

SS - Renteria is a very good shortstop but again moderate power.

3B - This is where Cabrera will be playing. Make no mistake about it. Detroit is full up on OF between Jones, Granderson, Sheffield, Thames and Ordonez, and the last time I checked Cabrera is who I was referring to waiting to see what he does - after all he is changing leagues. I'm not sure who you're referring to that plays much much much better D.

LF - Jones will be playing LF dude - not Cabrera and he's a 4th OF at best.

CF - Granderson is a very good CF - no doubt about it. I loved the 20/20/20/0 numbers he put up last year. It was cool. However, his 162 game average for strikeouts is 160 with a career OBP under .350. Isn't this they guy they plan on having lead off?

RF - Last year was Magglio's career year at the age of 33. Guys with serious injuries tend to start really feeling those injuries around 35. We won't see another .360 Avg and .595 Slg out of Magglio again. He had a career high in Avg, Slg, RBI, Runs and OBP. He won't do that again - no matter who's hitting around him in the line-up.

DH - Sheffield - no the last two seasons have not shown any sign of decline on the part of Sheffield - not at all. It was complete speculation. .265/.378/.462 isn't a decline from his average of .296/.397/.522. You know what I like better than speculation? Facts and stats would be that answer. Sheffield is on the decline. If you think specualation is fun - smart-ass - then it's only because you're speculating that he'll get back to his old form at the age of 39.

I like how you disregarded the starting pitching I discussed...

As for the bullpen, Detroit's bullpen sucks. Two of their guys had career seasons two years ago. Last year they suffered from the same things that Politte and Cotts did in 2006.

Anyway, this is not a comparison to the White Sox. However, the trade made yesterday is not a nail in the coffin of the 2008 Season for the White Sox. Sure if we don't do anything else this off season, the nail in the coffin was pounded in long ago - but the doom and gloom of this thread due to a trade that another team makes is ridiculous. Detroit is not the 1927 Yankees. Cleveland has a better shot at that comparison.

Soxfest
12-05-2007, 12:03 PM
"You try to do things that make sense and you can afford," Williams said. "I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

Anyone else tired of this, these are the same comments he made since day 1, he said if people showed up he could do more. Attendance has been awesome last 2 years and ticket prices have raised both years but yet no big free agent signing or big trade deadline deal it is the same old BS from KW. KW says every year we have extra payroll to get the difference maker at trade deadline but never has, on free agents the same old we tried we really did. White Sox recieved 25 million in 2007 for MLB licensing products alone this does not count any other revenue such as TV/Radio or ticket sales or revenue sharing so do not give me and other diehard fans we have no revenue BS. I love the Sox but the excuses year after year about revenue is really old.:angry: http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/gosoxretro.gif

asindc
12-05-2007, 12:03 PM
Actually, I agree. But it's also true that the 05 team wasn't as good as the record indicated. To his credit, KW said as much right after the WS.

If KW gets up on a podium tomorrrow and says that the WS may be a year or two away, my respect would increase greatly. Yesterday Ozzie said that if the lineup is what it is now on opening day he's not happy either. I can relate to that sort of honesty - it's one of the reasons I lkie Ozzie. he doesn't shove sunshine up one's booty.

I do expect more activity - but many of us are tired of the JR method of nipping around the edges. Time to get some difference makers - the kind of guys we just failed to land, Orlando Cabrera excepted - and not the usual maybes and possibles.

I don't see any reason why the Sox can't behave like the Red Sox. Seriously - the Sox market is as big as the Red Sox, even with the Cubs taking most of downstate Illinois.

I'm more than happy to await developments - but that's what we have been doing and now the Winter meetings are here - and in the meantime I reserve the right to grouse. Sorry if it offends some people.

JNS, it's not the grousing as much as your comments seem to suggest that the way the current offseason is unfolding so far, as of December 5, automatically dooms the Sox. As other posters have noted, KW was getting roasted even more during this time 3 years ago. We know how that turned out.:D:

I'm not suggesting this automatically means he will get the job done, but I'm just reiterating what others have already said: KW has gotten the job done before, and therefore there is reason to believe he can still get it done this offseason. Do I like the team as constituted right now? No. Do I wish KW had paid Hunter 5/95 and gutted the farm system for M Cabrera? Hells no! There is still time for substantial improvement. Let's see how it unfolds. I would think a WS ring would earn at least the benefit of the doubt.

Jurr
12-05-2007, 12:03 PM
Great. The Tigers and Angels are paper champions. The media will laud their additions to high heaven. Guess what? It doesn't matter. Ask the Colorado Rockies. Ask the 2005 Sox. Sometimes the biggest parts aren't needed if they fit right and perform well.

Flight #24
12-05-2007, 12:03 PM
If everything breaks nicely, I could see us doing well I guess. But I can't envision us doing better than all the teams in our division, or well enough to beat out one of the Evil Empires for the WC. That's the problem. I see this as a team who could be good, maybe, if things all break right, but even then its hard to see them having a shot at the playoffs. I can't see a rotation of Buehrle, Vazquez, Conteras, Danks, Gio/Broadway/Floyd/? winning the 95 or more games needed for the playoffs.


Pos Sox Tigers Indians
1B: Konerko Guillen Garko/Blake
2B: Richar Polanco Barfield
SS: Cabrera Renteria Peralta
3B: Fields Cabrera Marte
C: Pierzynski Rodriguez Martinez
LF: Fukudome Thames Delucci/Michaels
CF: Rowand Granderson Sizemore
RF: Dye Ordonez Gutierrez
DH; Thome Sheffield Hafner

SP: Buehrle Verlander Sabathia
SP: Vazquez Bonderman Carmona
SP: Contreras Rogers Byrd
SP: Danks Willis Lee
DP: Floyd Robertson Sowers

The Sox don't have a significant advantage at any position except maybe 1B, and that's assuming they can get Fukudome (reportedly they're not on his list), and Rowand (he wants 5 years, they won't give it). Or slot in Jones for Rowand (even though Kenny says he's not on their list). Even in the rotation, it's not like the Sox have dominance.

On the other hand, there are a number of slots on the field where they are at a significant disadvantage. Kenny needs to work some serious magic, and I don't see how he can at this point unless he changes his stance on FAs and works a jedi mind trick in a trade for an impact guy.

Flight #24
12-05-2007, 12:05 PM
I'm not suggesting this automatically means he will get the job done, but I'm just reiterating what others have already said: KW has gotten the job done before, and therefore there is reason to believe he can still get it done this offseason. Do I like the team as constituted right now? No. Do I wish KW had paid Hunter 5/95 and gutted the farm system for M Cabrera? Hells no! There is still time for substantial improvement. Let's see how it unfolds. I would think a WS ring would earn at least the benefit of the doubt.

For the record, he's gotten it done once in his tenure. True, that year he achieved the ultimate prize, but the rest of the time he hasn't even made the playoffs. So I don't think he's earned the right to make moves without even a hint of second-guessing.

Chicken Dinner
12-05-2007, 12:05 PM
"You try to do things that make sense and you can afford," Williams said. "I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

Anyone else tired of this, these are the same comments he made since day 1, he said if people showed up he could do more. Attendance has been awesome last 2 years and ticket prices have raised both years but yet no big free agent signing or big trade deadline deal it is the same old BS from KW. KW says every year we have extra payroll to get the difference maker at trade deadline but never has, on free agents the same old we tried we really did. White Sox recieved 25 million in 2007 for MLB licensing products alone this does not count any other revenue such as TV/Radio or ticket sales or revenue sharing so do not give me and other diehard fans we have no revenue BS. I love the Sox but the excuses year after year about revenue is really old.:angry: http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/gosoxretro.gif

Sounds like the government. Spent all the money and then says he doesn't have any to spend.

SoxyStu
12-05-2007, 12:11 PM
"You try to do things that make sense and you can afford," Williams said. "I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

Anyone else tired of this, these are the same comments he made since day 1, he said if people showed up he could do more. Attendance has been awesome last 2 years and ticket prices have raised both years but yet no big free agent signing or big trade deadline deal it is the same old BS from KW. KW says every year we have extra payroll to get the difference maker at trade deadline but never has, on free agents the same old we tried we really did. White Sox recieved 25 million in 2007 for MLB licensing products alone this does not count any other revenue such as TV/Radio or ticket sales or revenue sharing so do not give me and other diehard fans we have no revenue BS. I love the Sox but the excuses year after year about revenue is really old.:angry: http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/gosoxretro.gif


http://www.lacoctelera.com/myfiles/quefuede/Joey-Lawrence01.jpg

"Whoa"


No, no, no...the other woe!

balke
12-05-2007, 12:12 PM
You buy players at the deadline when you are competing. The Sox have a huge payroll. The Sox signed Jim Thome 2 seasons ago. The Sox signed Buehrle midseason last season. The Sox will get something before the season begins. A good question is what?

I think any Sox fan who thought we had a great shot at Cabrera is an idiot. Just throwing that out there. And I also think Hunter at 18 mil is dumb. I also think Quentin is better than any minor leaguer the Sox have and I haven't even seen him play yet.

So yeah. Long offseason, something else is coming. Patience. blah blah blah, merge with the 8 other threads exactly the same as this.

kitekrazy
12-05-2007, 12:14 PM
I'd prefer the Sox improve their farm system. We assume the team that builds up with big name free agents are handed the WS. How often does that really happen?

The Sox are at a disadvantage acquiring players thru trades. There's no one in the minors that interest anyone. Some of the current players may not get high value.

asindc
12-05-2007, 12:15 PM
For the record, he's gotten it done once in his tenure. True, that year he achieved the ultimate prize, but the rest of the time he hasn't even made the playoffs. So I don't think he's earned the right to make moves without even a hint of second-guessing.

I'm not saying don't second-guess moves/non-moves already made, I'm suggesting don't automatically assume that what has transpired so far will ultimately leave the Sox a non-factor in the AL Central this year. There is still work to be done, and KW has gotten done before. Yes, 1 playoff in 7 years is less than we should expect, but we should also expect our ace to not be the worst starting pitcher in the AL for the second half of 2006.

That aside, I'm not bashing anyone's crticizing a move already made, unless it is done without any analysis whatsoever. It you think KW should have paid Hunter 5/95, then so be it. If you think he should have gutted the farm system to get M Cabrera, then that's your perogative. But when my fellow Sox fans start saying things like, "KW should be fired, he can't get it done," or "KW should have done this" without knowing what he actually did, I have to point out the obvious.

Jurr
12-05-2007, 12:18 PM
You buy players at the deadline when you are competing. The Sox have a huge payroll. The Sox signed Jim Thome 2 seasons ago. The Sox signed Buehrle midseason last season. The Sox will get something before the season begins. A good question is what?

I think any Sox fan who thought we had a great shot at Cabrera is an idiot. Just throwing that out there. And I also think Hunter at 18 mil is dumb. I also think Quentin is better than any minor leaguer the Sox have and I haven't even seen him play yet.

So yeah. Long offseason, something else is coming. Patience. blah blah blah, merge with the 8 other threads exactly the same as this.
Thank you for the intelligence. An "non-superstar" player can come up and play solid baseball just as easily as these "superstars" can fizzle out and not help their teams at all.

Players don't come out of their mothers and immediately become superstars. They develop over time and then have breakout seasons. Just because you don't have a superstar at each position, you're not guaranteed an ounce of success (ask the 2001-2007 Yankees).

The right pieces need to be stockpiled. Just because the Sox missed out on two huge "superstar" talents, doesn't mean the ship has sunk. Give it time.

Soxfest
12-05-2007, 12:22 PM
You buy players at the deadline when you are competing. The Sox have a huge payroll. The Sox signed Jim Thome 2 seasons ago. The Sox signed Buehrle midseason last season. The Sox will get something before the season begins. A good question is what?

I think any Sox fan who thought we had a great shot at Cabrera is an idiot. Just throwing that out there. And I also think Hunter at 18 mil is dumb. I also think Quentin is better than any minor leaguer the Sox have and I haven't even seen him play yet.

So yeah. Long offseason, something else is coming. Patience. blah blah blah, merge with the 8 other threads exactly the same as this.


Thome was not signed but traded.

spiffie
12-05-2007, 12:24 PM
Thome was not signed but traded.
He did have to waive his NTC to come here though, so he did have some say in where he went.

kobo
12-05-2007, 12:28 PM
Outstanding post. It wont be long before the cell's attendance dips. If the offseason continues in this direction. KW should resign or be fired.
And if KW resigns or is fired, what makes you think that the next GM is going to turn everything around and start spending money and doing all the crazy things you have mentioned throughout this thread? What in the history of the White Sox since JR has owned this team leads you to believe another GM is going to do things differently? You think a new GM is going to stand up to JR and make demands that the Sox start spending all kinds of money? He might stand up to him, but he won't have a job for very long.

The Hunter situation was not about prospects - it was about JR's ongoing refusal to spend a nickel to make a dime - shortsighted and very bad policy in the sprts world - at least in a sport without a cap, such as baseball. he can sorta get away with it with the Bulls because of the cap.

They offered Hunter 5 yr $75 million. Hunter was going to sign. Then the Angels came in and offered $90 million at the last minute. Now here's the important part: there are no reports that Hunter or his agent came back to the Sox to ask for a counter-offer. If the Sox were not given a chance to counter the offer and Hunter decided on a whim to sign with LA, what more could the Sox do? Offer an insane contract right off the bat? Hunter isn't worth $90 million over 5 years.



I don't see any reason why the Sox can't behave like the Red Sox. Seriously - the Sox market is as big as the Red Sox, even with the Cubs taking most of downstate Illinois.


You want to pay these prices (http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/bos/ballpark/seating.jsp) to see a White Sox game?

UserNameBlank
12-05-2007, 12:31 PM
Outstanding post. I disagree with some of it, but you have thought it out well. I wish there was more of this sort of discussion going on.

There certainly are some mitigating factors, not the least of which is that the Tigers had those prospects because they lost something like 350 games in four years.

In the end a lot of this goes back to style - JR has a paranoid management style - not to his loyal employees (it took him how many years to dump Krause?) - but to the rest of the world. Sox fans tend to be fairly smart (notwithstanding afew posters on these lists) and IMO they deserve more than the "we want to win now" blather. A little bit of reflection and straight talk from KW would go a long way. But hey - it's JR and KW against the world, so why bother, even if we do pay their salaries.

As for the specifics, I'll keep my powder dry on Linebrink along with the others. he may be what he was in 06 and before, or he may be what he was in 07, in which case KW has thrown another $20 mil out the window.

Your point about Schuerholz is well taken, but he was running a medium market team - even a small market. The Sox should have more disposable income.

Bottom line (for me): I am unhappy with the way KW runs his show. Dombrowski is the model for me - and not just with the Tigers, but wiht the Marlins and the Expos as well - he's won everywhere he's been irrespective of the market size, quality of ownership, etc.

The whole thing about sitting on ledges is ridiculous, but Sox management needs to do better.

If KW knows he's in a bad spot, he perhaps ought to reflect a little more on what got him there and how to get out of it, instead of getting defensive and hostile, as he often does. This does not mean he's a quitter or depressed - just honest and realistic.

The Tigers did lose a lot of games to get their position in those drafts (6 and 10), but those players fell for a reason, and there is no knowing how far they would have fallen had the Tigers not selected them. The Tigers don't look at factors such as going over slot, Boras as an agent, and Major League contracts as hindrances. They still believe they can work something out. The Sox don't take that approach, and that comes from JR. I can in no way believe KW really believes that is the right way to go because of the fact that he is such a risk taker and he's always looking for tools and upside. Of course, every other GM loves that too, but Kenny is the type of GM who will deal for an Uribe, who still has superstar talent only without the work ethic and plate discipline, or a Quentin, who was injured and is at that "produce now or be called a bust" stage, or a Floyd who carries the same tag, or Aardsma, Contreras, or Jenks who had nasty arms but without the results, etc. In a perfect world, I see no reason why Kenny would pass up on that kind of talent in the draft.

Linebrink was the best non-closer on the market. Any reliever out there on the market is going to get overpaid; at least Kenny got the best one.

Schuerholz didn't have the type of payroll Kenny has (although its not a whole lot more), but it looks like Atlanta spent much more on international scouting. Plus baseball just wasn't where it is today; back then average players didn't get paid like superstars. Also, in John's favor, he didn't have to be in the same league as the Yankees and Red Sox with seemingly no spending limits. There are many differences, but the point is still the same. Schuerholz put some damn good teams on the field and they didn't get the results they were looking for. I wouldn't fault the GM exclusively; I fault the players on the field too. Especially with those WS Braves teams. That pitching was sick.

Dombrowski is a great GM, no doubt. I don't know much about the Expos but I can at least say that with Florida, trading the farm and later holding a fire sale to replenish it is not something that it looks like KW will be able to do. Dombrowski is great at that, and that's probably the Tigers' path as well. When the time is right to contend, like now, they'll put out the best possible club they can. Kenny did this in 2006. But, when everything goes to **** like it did here in '07, I bet that instead of trying to stay competitive like Kenny is trying to do, the Tigers sell off just about everything.

I'm sure Kenny knows what went wrong jsut like the rest of us do. His veterans regressed, players got hit with injuries, the grinders did their grinding, the low risk/high reward bullpen blew up, and the farm didn't provide many answers. He'll have to fix it now.

kobo
12-05-2007, 12:32 PM
"You try to do things that make sense and you can afford," Williams said. "I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

Anyone else tired of this, these are the same comments he made since day 1, he said if people showed up he could do more. Attendance has been awesome last 2 years and ticket prices have raised both years but yet no big free agent signing or big trade deadline deal it is the same old BS from KW. KW says every year we have extra payroll to get the difference maker at trade deadline but never has, on free agents the same old we tried we really did. White Sox recieved 25 million in 2007 for MLB licensing products alone this does not count any other revenue such as TV/Radio or ticket sales or revenue sharing so do not give me and other diehard fans we have no revenue BS. I love the Sox but the excuses year after year about revenue is really old.:angry: http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/gosoxretro.gif
What do you want him to do? He doesn't control how much he is given to spend on free agents, so he has to operate within his means. No amount of complaining or *****ing from the fans is going to change this. It hasn't changed in 25 years, why does anyone think it is going to change now?

kevin57
12-05-2007, 12:32 PM
The poor farm system is Kenny's responsibility, but I'm not going to hang him for not getting some of these big name players.

Most of the teams who have made it to the big dance the last several years have done so with payroll in the low to middle tiers. It's drive and chemistry that dictate success every bit as much as experience and proven ability. Many of the $$$ players are selfish teammates and get you nothing. I think a GM should be very judicious in pursuing which ones.

voodoochile
12-05-2007, 12:37 PM
You want to pay these prices (http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/bos/ballpark/seating.jsp) to see a White Sox game?

Yes. Yes, I do. Not because it will have anything at all to do with the size of the payroll, but because it will mean the Sox have developed into a major powerhouse with an International fan base giving them lots of money to spend and making them one of the top draws in all of sports. It would also probably mean they have turned into a regular pennant contender and won another WS or two...

balke
12-05-2007, 12:39 PM
Thome was not signed but traded.

Good point, but he was obtained at least. The Sox signed a reliever and got a great SS so far. That's at least a damn start. They aren't done yet.

spiffie
12-05-2007, 12:49 PM
The poor farm system is Kenny's responsibility, but I'm not going to hang him for not getting some of these big name players.

Most of the teams who have made it to the big dance the last several years have done so with payroll in the low to middle tiers. It's drive and chemistry that dictate success every bit as much as experience and proven ability. Many of the $$$ players are selfish teammates and get you nothing. I think a GM should be very judicious in pursuing which ones.
World Series Champs (payroll ranking):
2007 - Red Sox (2nd)
2006 - Cardinals (11th)
2005 - White Sox (13th)
2004 - Red Sox (2nd)
2003 - Marlins (25th)
2002 - Angels (15th)
2001 - D-Backs (8th)
2000 - Yankees (1st)
1999 - Yankees (1st)
1998 - Yankees (2nd)

So in the last 10 years the World Series has been won by a Top 2 payroll team 5 out of 10 times, a top 10 payroll 6 out of 10 times, and a top half payroll 9 out of 10 times. Maybe they were hiring a team chemist to put all the players in test tubes and get the right mix.

assrevolution
12-05-2007, 01:03 PM
World Series Champs (payroll ranking):
2007 - Red Sox (2nd)
2006 - Cardinals (11th)
2005 - White Sox (13th)
2004 - Red Sox (2nd)
2003 - Marlins (25th)
2002 - Angels (15th)
2001 - D-Backs (8th)
2000 - Yankees (1st)
1999 - Yankees (1st)
1998 - Yankees (2nd)

So in the last 10 years the World Series has been won by a Top 2 payroll team 5 out of 10 times, a top 10 payroll 6 out of 10 times, and a top half payroll 9 out of 10 times. Maybe they were hiring a team chemist to put all the players in test tubes and get the right mix.

These statistics show you need to pay to win. Are the Sox a big market team or not? Should free agents look to Chicago as a place where they will get paid and contend? If not, then they should cut payroll to $50MM and quit wasting everyone's time. The KC games will be fun to watch as the only competetive games we play all year.

Soxfest
12-05-2007, 01:07 PM
What do you want him to do? He doesn't control how much he is given to spend on free agents, so he has to operate within his means. No amount of complaining or *****ing from the fans is going to change this. It hasn't changed in 25 years, why does anyone think it is going to change now?


Then do not lie and tell people if they come things will change as KW did.

voodoochile
12-05-2007, 01:12 PM
These statistics show you need to pay to win. Are the Sox a big market team or not? Should free agents look to Chicago as a place where they will get paid and contend? If not, then they should cut payroll to $50MM and quit wasting everyone's time. The KC games will be fun to watch as the only competetive games we play all year.

They do? Funny, I read it the other way and in addition, the Sox had the 6th highest payroll in the majors to open last season and will be there again this season.

But, hey... nice rant...:rolleyes:

assrevolution
12-05-2007, 01:15 PM
They do? Funny, I read it the other way and in addition, the Sox had the 6th highest payroll in the majors to open last season and will be there again this season.

But, hey... nice rant...:rolleyes:

How do you read the other way that 5 out of the last 10 teams in the TOP TWO in payroll won the World Series????? That's 50% of the teams paying the TOP TWO payrolls winning it all. What's there to misread?? Maybe 6th isn't good enough.

TomBradley72
12-05-2007, 01:21 PM
These statistics show you need to pay to win. Are the Sox a big market team or not? Should free agents look to Chicago as a place where they will get paid and contend? If not, then they should cut payroll to $50MM and quit wasting everyone's time. The KC games will be fun to watch as the only competetive games we play all year.

From a big picture viewpoint...JR/KW have allowed the Detroit and Cleveland franchises to blow right by them....that's inexcusable...when we have access to one of the largest markets in the country.

voodoochile
12-05-2007, 01:21 PM
Then do not lie and tell people if they come things will change as KW did.

But things have changed. The Sox traditionally have been a middle of the pack payroll team. Now they are a top 6 team in terms of payroll.

They've also been much more active in the trade and FA markets than they used to be.

Just because this off season hasn't gone according to the idealized plan doesn't mean nothing has changed. It simply means this off season hasn't been as good as it could have been.

Heck under Scheuler, they never would have signed Dye nor acquired Contreras, Vasquez or Hernandez.

I realize it's all fashionable to start screaming and ranting but if people would stop stomping their feet and holding their breath long enough to look around, they might realize that Sox fans aren't nearly as bad off as many other teams...

voodoochile
12-05-2007, 01:26 PM
How do you read the other way that 5 out of the last 10 teams in the TOP TWO in payroll won the World Series????? That's 50% of the teams paying the TOP TWO payrolls winning it all. What's there to misread?? Maybe 6th isn't good enough.

Well yeah, but then there's the 5 teams who won with payrolls below the Sox
current level. In addition, I think things have changed in the last decade. When the Yankees were winning pennants, there weren't as many teams willing to compete with big payrolls to make a run at the pennant now there are, so big money FA's have more options and thus the talent is more widely dispersed.

Besides if having a top 2 payroll is what is needed to win a championship, you might as well change your favorite team now, because the Sox won't get there anytime soon...

slowlearner
12-05-2007, 01:30 PM
We assume the team that builds up with big name free agents are handed the WS. How often does that really happen?

Good point. Seems to me that the teams that compete year-in year-out (except maybe the Yankees - but they seem to be changing) build from the farm and then use free agency to fill any gaps that might arise. The key is that when they decide to fill a gap, they don't go out and get the third of fourth best available guy at that position - they spend the money and go for the best player, even if they have to overpay a little (that said, you always overpay a little in the free agent market).

Unfortunately, until the Sox start getting solid and consistent contributions from their farm system, they will be stuck in a never ending cycle of trading one hole for another. The perfect example is the Thome/Rowand deal. The Sox got a great bat from the Phils, but in doing so they created a hole in CF that they were unable to fill with cost-controlled youngsters. The Phils, on the other hand, added a quality CF and got better at 1B precisely because they had an heir apparent in Howard. They filled a need at a position via trade without sacrificing production at another. Until the farm system gets back in shape, that's something the Sox can't do.

Soxfest
12-05-2007, 01:32 PM
But things have changed. The Sox traditionally have been a middle of the pack payroll team. Now they are a top 6 team in terms of payroll.

They've also been much more active in the trade and FA markets than they used to be.

Just because this off season hasn't gone according to the idealized plan doesn't mean nothing has changed. It simply means this off season hasn't been as good as it could have been.

Heck under Scheuler, they never would have signed Dye nor acquired Contreras, Vasquez or Hernandez.

I realize it's all fashionable to start screaming and ranting but if people would stop stomping their feet and holding their breath long enough to look around, they might realize that Sox fans aren't nearly as bad off as many other teams...

You are correct about one thing "But things have changed" but not for the better!

voodoochile
12-05-2007, 01:39 PM
You are correct about one thing "But things have changed" but not for the better!

Really? How many WS titles did the Sox win in your lifetime prior to KW taking over?

Were they regular playoff contenders under the previous regimes?

You know there are no guarantees in sports. The best one can hope for is that their team makes an honest effort to contend year in and year out. Under KW they have. It hasn't always worked out, but at least they're exciting and at least they aren't sitting around waiting for the kids to develop and carry them to the championship.

I'll take the last 7 years of Sox baseball over most of the previous years of my Sox fandom because I've had hope and I've seen exciting baseball and exciting players. Of course I don't expect to win a WS every year, I just hope we get a chance to play meaningful baseball in August and September and take a shot at the playoffs. I get that way more under KW than I ever did in the past.

Soxfest
12-05-2007, 01:58 PM
Really? How many WS titles did the Sox win in your lifetime prior to KW taking over?

Were they regular playoff contenders under the previous regimes?

You know there are no guarantees in sports. The best one can hope for is that their team makes an honest effort to contend year in and year out. Under KW they have. It hasn't always worked out, but at least they're exciting and at least they aren't sitting around waiting for the kids to develop and carry them to the championship.

I'll take the last 7 years of Sox baseball over most of the previous years of my Sox fandom because I've had hope and I've seen exciting baseball and exciting players. Of course I don't expect to win a WS every year, I just hope we get a chance to play meaningful baseball in August and September and take a shot at the playoffs. I get that way more under KW than I ever did in the past.


Yes they won in 2005 the team got on a major roll but I give KW credit and am glad it happened but he was not the major reason Sox won that is an entire other debate. KW cannot even make back to back post seasons you cannot live on 1 magical post season run forever. KW did it once I want to see him do it again and as of today it is not looking good to even make the post season.

Lip Man 1
12-05-2007, 01:58 PM
Voodoo:

I guess it depends on how old you are regarding the comment about getting more of that unker KW then in the past.

That's not a slap at anything by the way, just commenting that how long you've been a fan is a large factor in this.

Lip

ilsox7
12-05-2007, 02:00 PM
Yes they won in 2005 the team got on a major roll but I give KW credit and am glad it happened but he was not the major reason Sox won that is an entire other debate.

Wow.

voodoochile
12-05-2007, 02:08 PM
Yes they won in 2005 the team got on a major roll but I give KW credit and am glad it happened but he was not the major reason Sox won that is an entire other debate. KW cannot even make back to back post seasons you cannot live on 1 magical post season run forever. KW did it once I want to see him do it again and as of today it is not looking good to even make the post season.

He wasn't? He didn't acquire Hernandez, Garcia, Contreras, Jenks, Politte, Dye, Pods, Jenks, Pierzynski, Uribe, Iguchi and even Geoff Blum?

Give me a ****ing break...:rolleyes:

Voodoo:

I guess it depends on how old you are regarding the comment about getting more of that unker KW then in the past.

That's not a slap at anything by the way, just commenting that how long you've been a fan is a large factor in this.

Lip

Since 1979, Lip and yes, I can understand how older fans might feel that way, but how about if I were to say KW has made the team more exciting in the last 7 years than they have been in the previous 35? Would you older fans agree with that?

asindc
12-05-2007, 02:08 PM
Yes they won in 2005 the team got on a major roll but I give KW credit and am glad it happened but he was not the major reason Sox won that is an entire other debate.

Well, let's recap here, shall we:

Before the 2005 season, KW had...

1) Signed Dye;

2) Signed AJ;

3) Traded for Pods;

4) Acquired Freddy Garcia;

5) Acquired Uribe (before you start pounding the keyboard, he was good in 05);

6) Traded for Contreras;

7) Acquired Politte; and

8) Acquired Cotts.

During the season, KW...

9) Signed Jenks to a minor league contract.

Yeah, you're right, KW only had a minor role in the 2005 Championship season.

ShoelessJoeS
12-05-2007, 02:12 PM
Don't forget Gooch, and Hermanson