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View Full Version : Tigers set to aquire Willis and Cabrera


gogosox16
12-04-2007, 05:14 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071204&content_id=2317414&vkey=hotstove2007&fext=.jsp

Cabrera and Willis go to the Tigers for Cameron Maybin, Andrew Miller and 4 other prospects


Wow!



Not looking good for the Sox in the next years to come

veeter
12-04-2007, 05:16 PM
Man, the drama down there is unbelievable.

Domeshot17
12-04-2007, 05:16 PM
Per SportsCenter, deal is done just need players to pass physicals.

Marlins get back Andrew Miller Cameron Maybin and 4 other prospects.

Lack of a farm system kills us again

EDIT: Put this in Talking Baseball since it is being reported as done

gogosox16
12-04-2007, 05:17 PM
Just seems that this Offseason keeps on getting worse and worse.

santo=dorf
12-04-2007, 05:17 PM
Talking about it on ESPN right now. I wonder how KW feels about losing out on his "big fish?"

Dontrelle has been falling apart, but Cabrera should be good. Dombrowski almost traded Verlander and Granderson for Willis a couple of years ago.

Soxfest
12-04-2007, 05:18 PM
As a Sox fan Detroit is gonna be tough look for KW to pick from the bottom shelf rest of the way!

PKalltheway
12-04-2007, 05:18 PM
Aw, ****.:angry:

StepsInSC
12-04-2007, 05:18 PM
Rotoworld chimes in the article that the Sox were about to get Miggy:

While the Tigers may have a deal about wrapped up, the White Sox also made a strong push to acquire Miguel Cabrera this afternoon, offering Josh Fields, Gio Gonzalez and either John Danks or Gavin Floyd.
Joe Capozzi of the Palm Beach Post thinks that deal is going to happen, while MLB.com is reporting that Cabrera is likely Detroit bound. It's hard to trust a report that rather equates Danks with Floyd. Danks would be the most valuable property the White Sox have to offer, while Floyd just doesn't have a lot of trade value left.


http://www.rotoworld.com/content/home_MLB.aspx

ChiSoxFan35
12-04-2007, 05:19 PM
Omg

CubKilla
12-04-2007, 05:19 PM
Wow :o:

thegooch
12-04-2007, 05:20 PM
That lineup is going to destroy people. And the pitching staff isn't too shabby either.

gogosox16
12-04-2007, 05:21 PM
As a Sox fan Detroit is gonna be tough look for KW to pick from the bottom shelf rest of the way!
Andruw Jones might now be our top priority now

oeo
12-04-2007, 05:22 PM
That lineup is going to destroy people. And the pitching staff isn't too shabby either.

They look good for the next couple years. Afterwards is a different story, though. They just lost a lot, and that team isn't getting any younger.

beckett21
12-04-2007, 05:22 PM
That lineup is going to destroy people. And the pitching staff isn't too shabby either.

Yeah but they traded their top two prospects--SUCKERS!!!



:mad:

Soxfest
12-04-2007, 05:23 PM
Andruw Jones might now be our top priority now

Sox are not gonna deal with Bor-ASS!

sox1970
12-04-2007, 05:23 PM
That writer for the Florida paper needs to be smacked. This sucks.

DumpJerry
12-04-2007, 05:24 PM
Leyland is an overrated Manager.

ChiSoxFan35
12-04-2007, 05:24 PM
They look good for the next couple years. Afterwards is a different story, though. They just lost a lot, and that team isn't getting any younger.

Do you work for White Sox PR? Season ticket sales?

gogosox16
12-04-2007, 05:24 PM
Yeah but they traded their top two prospects--SUCKERS!!!



:mad:

And both of their Top 2 prospects were going to be studs in this league....I think the Marlins got a steal here getting 6 players for 2 and 2 players that can help right now and league minimum and they are going to get a lot better and who knows who the other 4 are.

DSpivack
12-04-2007, 05:25 PM
They look good for the next couple years. Afterwards is a different story, though. They just lost a lot, and that team isn't getting any younger.

While true, Cabrera is a young guy. I don't think Dontrelle is all that good anymore, but he's solid and should eat up a lot of innings. Magglio was their top hitter, but he doesn't have the power he used to, is getting older; Cabrera completely changes that. Now we have to see him 19 times a year. :angry:

ShoelessJoeS
12-04-2007, 05:25 PM
****in weak ass ****.... the Tigers lineup is going to look REALLY good.... ****.

oeo
12-04-2007, 05:25 PM
That writer for the Florida paper needs to be smacked. This sucks.

Makes me wonder if the Sox really were pushing for him, or just driving up the price for Detroit.

People are forgetting that Detroit is a very old team. Depending on who the prospects are (and I'd imagine they're pretty good because of what Florida was asking), this could kill them in a couple years.

gogosox16
12-04-2007, 05:25 PM
Sox are not gonna deal with Bor-ASS!
You never know...Their isnt many suitors right now for Jones cause the Dodgers fell out and the Sox could steal him for 2-3 years at 15-18 mill a year

DumpJerry
12-04-2007, 05:26 PM
Sox are not gonna deal with Bor-ASS!
Why not? They do it all the time. Why change now?

dickallen15
12-04-2007, 05:26 PM
They look good for the next couple years. Afterwards is a different story, though. They just lost a lot, and that team isn't getting any younger.
What do the White Sox look like in a couple of years after Thome, Dye, and Konerko, Cabrera and AJP depart?

thegooch
12-04-2007, 05:26 PM
Makes me wonder if the Sox really were pushing for him, or just driving up the price for Detroit.

People are forgetting that Detroit is a very old team. Depending on who the prospects are, this could kill them in a couple years.

I wish we had this problem.

California Sox
12-04-2007, 05:26 PM
I can't find any mention of this, so I'm holding out hope. If true, this is a crushing blow. MCabrera is a true franchise player and the D-Train can pitch a lot better away from the people who were telling him to throw 85 with sink.

santo=dorf
12-04-2007, 05:27 PM
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/1703_P_season_full_0_20071001.png
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/1703_P_season_full_4_20071001.png
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/1703_P_season_full_6_20071001.png

beckett21
12-04-2007, 05:27 PM
And both of their Top 2 prospects were going to be studs in this league....I think the Marlins got a steal here getting 6 players for 2 and 2 players that can help right now and league minimum and they are going to get a lot better and who knows who the other 4 are.

Time will tell if it's a steal. They did give up a ton.

Right now though, if I'm a Tigers fan I'm pretty happy. Cabrera is a proven commodity, and Willis has a pretty good track record, last season notwithstanding.

JermaineDye05
12-04-2007, 05:27 PM
The Tigers get these 2, and the Twins are more then likely going to trade Santana. It looks as if everything is going for the Tigers in 2008. I realize there is more offseason, but this is a huge blow.

oeo
12-04-2007, 05:28 PM
What do the White Sox look like in a couple of years after Thome, Dye, and Konerko, Cabrera and AJP depart?

Not good...how is that relevant to the Tigers, though? :?:

This is why I've been preaching for building around 2009 and beyond, not 2008.

Domeshot17
12-04-2007, 05:28 PM
Detroit is not that old

Young rotation, young bullpen, they will be fine.

This is what happens when you get more then 2 guys a year out of a draft and are willing to pay the premium for top tier prospects in the draft.

California Sox
12-04-2007, 05:30 PM
People are forgetting that Detroit is a very old team. Depending on who the prospects are (and I'd imagine they're pretty good because of what Florida was asking), this could kill them in a couple years.

You're mistaken. Verlander's 24, MCabrera is 24, Granderson is 26, D-Train is 28. That's a nucleus that's going to be good for a long time. Add to it that the Kittens will go over slot in every round, they'll rebuild their farm system fast.

oeo
12-04-2007, 05:30 PM
I wish we had this problem.

We're already in the situation that Tigers could be by 2010.

Dick Allen
12-04-2007, 05:31 PM
What next, the Indians trade for Jake Peavy?:angry:

kruzer31
12-04-2007, 05:31 PM
Not good, the Tigers are going to be one tough team with Shef, Migs and Mags.

santo=dorf
12-04-2007, 05:31 PM
I'm curious as to what the reaction at WSI would be if we got Cabrera for Fields, Danks and Gio.

I imagine Gio would go back to being "too fragile" and having too small of a frame.
Fields is a K machine and a defensive liability.
Danks fell apart during his second half due to running out of gas and gave up too many home runs.

thegooch
12-04-2007, 05:31 PM
We're already in the situation that Tigers could be by 2010.

I meant the problem where we are really good right now. Sorry, my post was confusing.

Blueprint1
12-04-2007, 05:32 PM
Great. :angry:

oeo
12-04-2007, 05:32 PM
You're mistaken. Verlander's 24, MCabrera is 24, Granderson is 26, D-Train is 28. That's a nucleus that's going to be good for a long time. Add to it that the Kittens will go over slot in every round, they'll rebuild their farm system fast.

I didn't know four guys made an entire roster...

Look at the rest of that team.

I don't know much about their draft classes, but we'll see how good they are now that they don't have a Top 5 pick every year.

munchman33
12-04-2007, 05:34 PM
What next, the Indians trade for Jake Peavy?:angry:

We aren't in on Peavy. But they'll probably trade for Jason Bay.

JermaineDye05
12-04-2007, 05:35 PM
I'm curious as to what the reaction at WSI would be if we got Cabrera for Fields, Danks and Gio.

I imagine Gio would go back to being "too fragile" and having too small of a frame.
Fields is a K machine and a defensive liability.
Danks fell apart during his second half due to running out of gas and gave up too many home runs.

IF we had made the trade I would have loved it and been a little upset. Cabrera would be a big upgrade over Fields. Considering he's younger and a better hitter. His defense would probably be worse then Josh, but we'd have a chance at signing him to an extension given his relationship with Ozzie. Danks and Gio I feel have real potential in this league. I would have been disappointed to see them go but ecstatic to see a player of Cabrera's caliber on the White Sox.

JermaineDye05
12-04-2007, 05:36 PM
Whoever we draft next season better be some player.

FedEx227
12-04-2007, 05:37 PM
I didn't know four guys made an entire roster...

Look at the rest of that team.

I don't know much about their draft classes, but we'll see how good they are now that they don't have a Top 5 pick every year.

What's with WSI's obsession that farm systems are only built through Top 5 picks.

Go talk to the Atlanta Braves about that one. Or David Wright. Or Albert Pujols.

Btw, Granderson was picked in the 3rd round, 10 spots later the White Sox picked up the mighty Josh Rupe. That year we also had a Top 20 pick, we picked #18 and got Royce Ring. Picks directly after Ring: James Loney, Jeff Francouer, Joe Blanton, Matt Cain.

California Sox
12-04-2007, 05:37 PM
4 guys might not be an entire roster, but 4 all stars are a great place to start building around. Do we have a single player in that age group as good as any of those guys? And even subtracting 6 players, Detroit's farm system can't be any worse than ours. I'm sorry, there's no upside in this for us.

Domeshot17
12-04-2007, 05:38 PM
I didn't know four guys made an entire roster...

Look at the rest of that team.

I don't know much about their draft classes, but we'll see how good they are now that they don't have a Top 5 pick every year.

They will be fine with age and minor league talent

hell they got a top 12 talent in the late first this year because they are willing to spend $$$. Porcello by all accounts has an unreal arm, but no one wanted to pay him. As long as they have an owner who is willing to pay a premium for premium players in the draft, they will be fine.

Dan Mega
12-04-2007, 05:38 PM
Basically the league is now this.

1)Boston
2)Detroit
3-30)everyone else

1 and 2 could be flipped if Boston fails to acquire Johan.

DSpivack
12-04-2007, 05:39 PM
Basically the league is now this.

1)Boston
2)Detroit
3-30)everyone else

1 and 2 could be flipped if Boston fails to acquire Johan.

What about the Angels? A rotation of Lackey, Weaver, Escobar, Garland and Santana/Saunders/Adenhart is pretty darn good.

oeo
12-04-2007, 05:41 PM
What's with WSI's obsession that farm systems are only built through Top 5 picks.

Go talk to the Atlanta Braves about that one. Or David Wright. Or Albert Pujols.

Btw, Granderson was picked in the 3rd round. So basically, you're typical Top 5 pick.

When they show they can draft like the Braves, year in and year out, come talk to me. This is the same organization that couldn't buy wins for two decades that we're talking about.

4 guys might not be an entire roster, but 4 all stars are a great place to start building around. Do we have a single player in that age group as good as any of those guys? And even subtracting 6 players, Detroit's farm system can't be any worse than ours. I'm sorry, there's no upside in this for us.You're backtracking now. The rest of the team is still old. They're eventually going to have to pay all four of those guys a lot of money, and then they're going to need replacements for more than half of their lineup. The way they got to the World Series in 2006 was by overpaying...are they going to be able to do that when they're already paying guys like Curtis Granderson, Miguel Cabrera, and Dontrelle Willis? I think not.

And I never said there was an upside for us. I didn't even mention the Sox. I was talking about the Tigers. I think they're in trouble in a couple of years when their old team starts breaking down. Four all stars are not going to win you a championship, you need an entire roster.

DumpJerry
12-04-2007, 05:41 PM
I'm curious as to what the reaction at WSI would be if we got Cabrera for Fields, Danks and Gio.

I imagine Gio would go back to being "too fragile" and having too small of a frame.
Fields is a K machine and a defensive liability.
Danks fell apart during his second half due to running out of gas and gave up too many home runs.
You're right.

We'll be ok, everyone.

In tbe 2004-2005 offseason, Kenny did not build one of the best teams since the 1927 Yankees by acquiring big name players. He did it by acquiring players who filled specific roles and played well together.

Dan Mega
12-04-2007, 05:42 PM
What about the Angels? A rotation of Lackey, Weaver, Escobar, Garland and Santana/Saunders/Adenhart is pretty darn good.

You're right. I'd put LAAAAA at a distant third.

Their pitching could keep up but could their hitting?

oeo
12-04-2007, 05:45 PM
They will be fine with age and minor league talent

hell they got a top 12 talent in the late first this year because they are willing to spend $$$. Porcello by all accounts has an unreal arm, but no one wanted to pay him. As long as they have an owner who is willing to pay a premium for premium players in the draft, they will be fine.

I disagree with this. I don't think Dave Dombrowski is all he's hyped up to be. He's a risk taker; that's it. What happens when he runs out of luck?

gogosox16
12-04-2007, 05:45 PM
You're right. I'd put LAAAAA at a distant third.

Their pitching could keep up but could their hitting?
is getting better....they got a good center fielder that will help and as for SS you might not able to expect what Orlando did but you can almost gurantee more homers.

veeter
12-04-2007, 05:46 PM
Cabrera is awesome. But Willis has been sliding. Add to that, he's in a real league now, he'll probably get pounded. Bonderman has a lot of arm problems, so I think the Sox will be o.k. Not to mention Detroit gave up a TON of great players, although some unproven.

Domeshot17
12-04-2007, 05:46 PM
When they show they can draft like the Braves, year in and year out, come talk to me. This is the same organization that couldn't buy wins for two decades that we're talking about.

You're backtracking now. The rest of the team is still old. They're eventually going to have to pay all four of those guys a lot of money, and then they're going to need replacements for more than half of their lineup. The way they got to the World Series in 2006 was by overpaying...are they going to be able to do that when they're already paying guys like Curtis Granderson, Miguel Cabrera, and Dontrelle Willis? I think not.

And I never said there was an upside for us. I didn't even mention the Sox. I was talking about the Tigers. I think they're in trouble in a couple of years when their old team starts breaking down. Four all stars are not going to win you a championship, you need an entire roster.

*****.

In 4 years they will be looking at a rotation of Verlander-Bonderman-Willis-Porcello which is awesome

They will have Zumaya closing...awesome

they will have granderson and cabrera in their lineup, magglio moving to DH, they are in great shape

DSpivack
12-04-2007, 05:47 PM
I disagree with this. I don't think Dave Dombrowski is all he's hyped up to be. He's a risk taker; that's it. What happens when he runs out of luck?

Willis, Cabrera, Sheffield, Renteria, Rodriguez, Todd Jones; all fomer Marlins.

DSpivack
12-04-2007, 05:48 PM
is getting better....they got a good center fielder that will help and as for SS you might not able to expect what Orlando did but you can almost gurantee more homers.

By whom?

gogosox16
12-04-2007, 05:49 PM
Willis, Cabrera, Sheffield, Renteria, Rodriguez, Todd Jones; all fomer Marlins.
All of them have a world series ring...(not sure about Jones, pretty sure though)

oeo
12-04-2007, 05:50 PM
*****.

In 4 years they will be looking at a rotation of Verlander-Bonderman-Willis-Porcello which is awesome

Okay. It's awesome if Bonderman ever reaches the potential he was supposed to reach two years ago, Willis ever returns to his 2005 form, and Porcello even makes the big leagues.

They will have Zumaya closing...awesomeZumaya stays healthy like Kerry Wood stays healthy.

they will have granderson and cabrera in their lineup, magglio moving to DH, they are in great shapeMagglio is not as good as he was in 2007. Let's look at the rest of that lineup and what's going to need replacements in the next few years: LF (do they even have one right now?), RF, 1B, 2B, SS, and C. Most will likely have to come from within the organization unless they plan on spending Red Sox-like money because they'll have to pay their 'four all stars.'

gogosox16
12-04-2007, 05:50 PM
By whom?
Brandon Wood posibly and most likely...He will hit at least 15-20 homers

btrain929
12-04-2007, 05:51 PM
What next, the Indians trade for Jake Peavy?:angry:

****ing tell me about it....

DSpivack
12-04-2007, 05:51 PM
Brandon Wood posibly and most likely...He will hit at least 15-20 homers

Was moved to 3B awhile ago, if I'm not mistaken. Erick Aybar is the most likely starting SS at this point.

FedEx227
12-04-2007, 05:53 PM
Was moved to 3B awhile ago, if I'm not mistaken. Erick Aybar is the most likely starting SS at this point.

Yeah Wood will be a 3B. He's a lot like Fields, big swing, big power, lots of Ks.

But yes, Aybar is their SS.

gogosox16
12-04-2007, 05:53 PM
Was moved to 3B awhile ago, if I'm not mistaken. Erick Aybar is the most likely starting SS at this point.
Then never mind then cause he is not a power SS and will be lucky to hit 5....so they downgraded bad for this year but have potential to be good

beckett21
12-04-2007, 05:53 PM
Obviously the Tigers will worry about two years from now...two years from now.

Right now they are looking pretty damn good, and that is all that matters today.

ChiSoxIn06
12-04-2007, 05:54 PM
white sox party of 25....your reservations for 3rd (possibly 4th) place are ready.

oeo
12-04-2007, 05:55 PM
Obviously the Tigers will worry about two years from now...two years from now.

Right now they are looking pretty damn good, and that is all that matters today.

Of course.

All I did was mention that they're putting themselves in a risky future. Then people got defensive like usual. I guess I learned my lesson: never question Dave Dombrowski; he's a god.

FedEx227
12-04-2007, 05:55 PM
white sox party of 25....your reservations for 3rd (possibly 4th) place are ready.

3rd. We aren't 4th place bad.

btrain929
12-04-2007, 05:56 PM
Obviously the Tigers will worry about two years from now...two years from now.

Right now they are looking pretty damn good, and that is all that matters today.

We just need to stay afloat until the offseason after the '09 season, so Ozzie can talk Miggy to not sign an extension with the Tigers and to come play for us. It can happen.........right? :(:

gogosox16
12-04-2007, 05:56 PM
white sox party of 25....your reservations for 3rd (possibly 4th) place are ready.
Hey 5th is out of the mind if the Twins decide to keep Santana till July and unless the Sox get a big impact player cough cough *Andruw Jones* cough cough

Crash_Davis
12-04-2007, 05:57 PM
ESPN reports "The Tigers are landing two big fish in Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis"

Florida is getting Cameron Maybin, Andrew Miller, catcher Mike Rabelo and three minor league prospects.

ChiSoxIn06
12-04-2007, 05:57 PM
but hey let them have willis and cabrera...we got carlos quinten....and as far as the twins go even if they trade santana i believe they still have a guy named liriano...and plus they will get solid replacements for santana if they trade him as well...unless we score 7 runs a game we are going to be in trouble.

gogosox16
12-04-2007, 05:58 PM
We just need to stay afloat until the offseason after the '09 season, so Ozzie can talk Miggy to not sign an extension with the Tigers and to come play for us. It can happen.........right? :(:
Only if Cuban owns the Sox cause Jerry won't make a 5-7 year offer for 20 mil per for him....he doesnt take the risk and we have seen it...would be a different story if we saw him do it with Hunter then I think it could possibly happen.

downstairs
12-04-2007, 05:58 PM
3rd. We aren't 4th place bad.

Did you happen to catch the final 2007 standings, by chance?

gogosox16
12-04-2007, 05:58 PM
but hey let them have willis and cabrera...we got carlos quinten
I like that Attitude:bandance:

FedEx227
12-04-2007, 06:00 PM
Did you happen to catch the final 2007 standings, by chance?

I did. But I don't think we'll be that bad this year. We got much more talent on this team, a hopefully more stable bullpen. We'll be a tough 3rd place team.

beckett21
12-04-2007, 06:01 PM
Of course.

All I did was mention that they're putting themselves in a risky future. Then people got defensive like usual.

I see both sides of it.

Not calling you out or saying you are wrong, but the objective is to win now, not develop a mythical 'dynasty' 4-5 years from now. I think we all know how that usually works out, given all of the busted *can't miss* prospects we as Sox fans have seen fall by the wayside over the years. Not to mention the free agent market makes it pretty tough to keep those types of teams together for any period of time.

infohawk
12-04-2007, 06:01 PM
Look, I know that just because you land a big player or two doesn't guarantee anything, but I'm really upset. It has more to do with the Sox seemingly unable to get who they really want in trades or free agency. Meanwhile, it just makes it more obnoxious that the player goes to another team in our division.

DumpJerry
12-04-2007, 06:01 PM
3rd. We aren't 4th place bad.

Did you happen to catch the final 2007 standings, by chance?
FedEx is talking about the 2008 standings.

The Twins will continue to be weaker than they look on paper. Even after they trade Johan.

gogosox16
12-04-2007, 06:01 PM
I did. But I don't think we'll be that bad this year. We got much more talent on this team, a hopefully more stable bullpen. We'll be a tough 3rd place team.
Yes we did get a better SS but we still pretty much have the same out field and 1 relief pitcher doesnt solve the problem we had last year

spiffie
12-04-2007, 06:02 PM
Makes me wonder if the Sox really were pushing for him, or just driving up the price for Detroit.

People are forgetting that Detroit is a very old team. Depending on who the prospects are (and I'd imagine they're pretty good because of what Florida was asking), this could kill them in a couple years.
So right by the time that all the prospects MN is going to get for Santana should be coming into their own. That's promising.

oeo
12-04-2007, 06:02 PM
I see both sides of it.

Not calling you out or saying you are wrong, but the objective is to win now, not develop a mythical 'dynasty' 4-5 years from now. I think we all know how that usually works out, given all of the busted *can't miss* prospects we as Sox fans have seen fall by the wayside over the years. Not to mention the free agent market makes it pretty tough to keep those types of teams together for any period of time.

I never said what the Tigers did was wrong. I'm merely pointing out that this doesn't make the Tigers some unbelievable force for the next 10 years. They're going to be pretty good for a couple of years, but they will fall off.

In the meantime, the Sox should be rebuilding their farm system to take advantage of a weaker division in a couple of years.

russ99
12-04-2007, 06:03 PM
Uh, guys. The World Series isn't played in December. If that were the case the Cubs would have won it all last season.

While this is a nice move on paper for the (paper) Tigers, it guarantees nothing. Plus the Tigers have to re-sign these guys or this deal is a tremendous rip-off...

Also, I don't expect Kenny to make a knee-jerk move to "make up" for losing out on Cabrera and Hunter either.

Besides we need a CF and pitching right now, and while Wills would have been nice, Cabrera wouldn't have fit with the plan. And then there's the problem of having 2 Cabreras on the left side of the infield. :D: I could see Singleton having all kinds of problems with that!

Let's worry about the White Sox instead of how good the Tigers look on paper - and Kenny still has some work to do...

Chicken Dinner
12-04-2007, 06:03 PM
ESPN reports "The Tigers are landing two big fish in Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis"

Florida is getting Cameron Maybin, Andrew Miller, catcher Mike Rabelo and three minor league prospects.


As Kenny stands there with his minnow in hand.

gogosox16
12-04-2007, 06:04 PM
Look, I know that just because you land a big player or two doesn't guarantee anything, but I'm really upset. It has more to do with the Sox seemingly unable to get who they really want in trades or free agency. Meanwhile, it just makes it more obnoxious that the player goes to another team in our division.
That can be put on the Sox ability to draft, and get good upcoming prospects....hopefully we get something list up coming year with the 8th pick I believe that will show a sign of something for our future

gogosox16
12-04-2007, 06:05 PM
Uh, guys. The World Series isn't played in December. If that were the case the Cubs would have won it all last season.

While this is a nice move on paper for the (paper) Tigers, it guarantees nothing. Plus the Tigers have to re-sign these guys of this deal is a tremendous rip-off...

Also, I don't expect Kenny to make a knee-jerk move to "make up" for losing out on Cabrera and Hunter either.

Besides we need a CF and pitching right now, and while Wills would have been nice, Cabrera wouldn't have fit with the plan. And then there's the problem of having 2 Cabreras on the left side of the infield. :D: I could see Singleton having all kinds of problems with that!

Let's worry about the White Sox and Kenny still has some work to do...
He would of been our Left fielder even if we traded Fields for him

ChiSoxIn06
12-04-2007, 06:05 PM
I never said what the Tigers did was wrong. I'm merely pointing out that this doesn't make the Tigers some unbelievable force for the next 10 years. They're going to be pretty good for a couple of years, but they will fall off.

In the meantime, the Sox should be rebuilding their farm system to take advantage of a weaker division in a couple of years.

yeah thats exactly what sox fans want to hear 2 years removed from a WS

santo=dorf
12-04-2007, 06:07 PM
As Kenny stands there with his minnow in hand.
Don't worry, Chris Burke is on his way. Perhaps he can help our farm system jump up from 29th. :anon:

gogosox16
12-04-2007, 06:08 PM
yeah thats exactly what sox fans want to hear 2 years removed from a WS
Expecially when you just traded your top position project away.

beckett21
12-04-2007, 06:08 PM
I never said what the Tigers did was wrong. I'm merely pointing out that this doesn't make the Tigers some unbelievable force for the next 10 years. They're going to be pretty good for a couple of years, but they will fall off.

In the meantime, the Sox should be rebuilding their farm system to take advantage of a weaker division in a couple of years.

Gotcha.

It definitely appears to weaken them in the future, but this doesn't look like the moribund franchise that was asleep at the wheel for 20 odd years. They are not afraid to spend money when they have to, despite some bad investments in the past. (Juan Gonzalez anyone?) With a competent GM at the helm, they look like a team intent upon competing year after year. They remind me more and more of the Angels every day. Always in the mix.

Hopefully you are right though.

gogosox16
12-04-2007, 06:09 PM
Don't worry, Chris Burke is on his way. Perhaps he can help our farm system jump up from 29th. :anon:
With him I think they would switch us with the Astros and we would be 30th:anon:

hi im skot
12-04-2007, 06:09 PM
Goddamnit.

ChiSoxIn06
12-04-2007, 06:09 PM
4 months from opening day and im already depressed about the season.

gogosox16
12-04-2007, 06:11 PM
4 months from opening day and im already depressed about the season.
And now we're going to go through hell for the next couple of years:whiner:....time to root for my 2nd favorite team the Angels (go Jon Garland)

schmitty9800
12-04-2007, 06:13 PM
FedEx is talking about the 2008 standings.

The Twins will continue to be weaker than they look on paper. Even after they trade Johan.That's wishful thinking. Liriano is going to be back, Mauer will probably play 140 games, and they'll still be hard to beat in the 'dome. It's going to be a dogfight for 3rd place.

I don't think this makes the Tiggers the top dogs in the central though. Sheff is 38, and every other regular is old as well. The Indians figure to have their guys keep getting better, and most of the Tigers regulars are old and figure to miss some time. They might maintain the win total because of Cabrera, but it'll really depend on their pitching.

oeo
12-04-2007, 06:14 PM
yeah thats exactly what sox fans want to hear 2 years removed from a WS

Oh ****ing well. **** happens...the team fell apart. It's time to build a new core, or else we're going to be sitting in the ditch for a long time.

thedudeabides
12-04-2007, 06:15 PM
Gotcha.

It definitely appears to weaken them in the future, but this doesn't look like the moribund franchise that was asleep at the wheel for 20 odd years. They are not afraid to spend money when they have to, despite some bad investments in the past. (Juan Gonzalez anyone?) With a competent GM at the helm, they look like a team intent upon competing year after year. They remind me more and more of the Angels every day. Always in the mix.

Hopefully you are right though.

I agree. This team is stacked for the next couple of years. I'm not that mad at the Sox for not getting Cabrera, as of now none of us know if this was a real possibility, I am angry the Tigers were able to get him.

People can spin this any way they want, but the Tigers got better for the next couple of years. And if they lose these players in 2-3 years they will buy more. They will be a consistent contender and and that will allow the payroll to keep growing. Who knows what the prospects the Tigers gave up will amount to, but history shows most likely they will not amount to what Cabrera and Willis already are.

It's Time
12-04-2007, 06:17 PM
Well, obviously the Tigers are the team to beat. That lineup they have now is beyond ridiculous.

But hey, Kenny has a good plan and those that defend this off season thus far will be right here to tell you about it.

:angry:

DumpJerry
12-04-2007, 06:18 PM
That's wishful thinking. Liriano is going to be back, Mauer will probably play 140 games, and they'll still be hard to beat in the 'dome. It's going to be a dogfight for 3rd place.
Liriano is coming off Tommy John Surgery which was needed because of his pitching style. He will have to change his pitching style or else go bye-bye. He won't be the Liriano we faced two years ago.

schmitty9800
12-04-2007, 06:18 PM
Who knows what the prospects the Tigers gave up will amount to, but history shows most likely they will not amount to what Cabrera and Willis already are.
Andrew Miller almost had a better ERA+ last year (81) than Willis (83). Willis is not that great, he might have some initial good success if AL hitters can't adjust to the delivery but I don't anticipate him ever sniffing 2nd in Cy Young voting again.

Liriano is coming off Tommy John Surgery which was needed because of his pitching style. He will have to change his pitching style or else go bye-bye. He won't be the Liriano we faced two years ago.
I just can't say that this team is better than the Twins. We're more injury prone, and we don't hit, pitch, or field as well.

ChiSoxIn06
12-04-2007, 06:19 PM
Oh ****ing well. **** happens...the team fell apart. It's time to build a new core, or else we're going to be sitting in the ditch for a long time.

then why are we keeping guys like thome, dye, and konerko...you can't build a core by keeping old has beens.

oeo
12-04-2007, 06:21 PM
then why are we keeping guys like thome, dye, and konerko...you can't build a core by keeping old has beens.

Did I say that I wanted to keep those guys? :?:

Domeshot17
12-04-2007, 06:22 PM
Not to make it worse but the Royals don't look half bad either. They are on the rise, and while they have a rotation full of mid rotation starters, its not that bad. They won't win the division but a .500 finish from them is not out of the question.

downstairs
12-04-2007, 06:22 PM
I did. But I don't think we'll be that bad this year. We got much more talent on this team, a hopefully more stable bullpen. We'll be a tough 3rd place team.

All right, I won't bet you on it.

I'm excited to move up a spot in the standings! Woo hoo!

Seriously, it took some brass balls moves to take us from 2004 to 2005. Often questioned, of course... but risky moves.

I don't see that yet this off season. Who's our new Pods? Who's our new El Duque?

JB98
12-04-2007, 06:24 PM
then why are we keeping guys like thome, dye, and konerko...you can't build a core by keeping old has beens.

None of the three should be described as "has-beens."

Thome, Dye and Konerko are the least of our problems. In fact, 3-4-5, we match up decently with Detroit. Sure, the Tigers have a slight edge, but it's not overwhelming. Detroit has higher average hitters there, but the power numbers are pretty comparable.

The problem is Detroit has Granderson and Polanco setting the table. We can't match that, even with Cabrera. And they've got Edgar Renteria hitting sixth and Ivan Rodriguez batting seventh. And Jacque Jones batting eighth. We don't have that type of depth in our lineup.

hi im skot
12-04-2007, 06:24 PM
then why are we keeping guys like thome, dye, and konerko...you can't build a core by keeping old has beens.

Has beens?

By far the dumbest post I've ever read.

TheVulture
12-04-2007, 06:25 PM
UN - ****ING - BELIEVABLE!

Dombrowski is the man, I've got to hand it to him. ****.

SoxGirl4Life
12-04-2007, 06:25 PM
I don't see that yet this off season. Who's our new Pods? Who's our new El Duque?

But did you think Pods and El Duque were great acquistions when we got them?

ChiSoxIn06
12-04-2007, 06:25 PM
like i said...until the sox decide whether they are going to admit they need to rebuild or they are willing to over pay for thier free agents they will continue to be in the proverbial ditch of the AL central because the other teams in that division (aside from the royals) are prime examples on how to be build a team.

Fenway
12-04-2007, 06:25 PM
The Kitties are loaded now for sure

JB98
12-04-2007, 06:26 PM
Has beens?

By far the dumbest post I've ever read.

I agree. That only guy on our roster who might be described as a has-been is Contreras. Thome is old, but he's still damn productive.

JB98
12-04-2007, 06:26 PM
But did you think Pods and El Duque were great acquistions when we got them?

Duque, yes. Pods, no.

KW was right on CLee deal. I, and many others here, were wrong.

RockyMtnSoxFan
12-04-2007, 06:26 PM
You're right.

We'll be ok, everyone.

In tbe 2004-2005 offseason, Kenny did not build one of the best teams since the 1927 Yankees by acquiring big name players. He did it by acquiring players who filled specific roles and played well together.

Kenny built that team with luck as much as anything else. He took some risks that worked out well. I mean, Carlos Lee for Podsednik? Pods sucked in '04, whereas C. Lee had a monster year, and the real reason for the trade was to avoid paying him. No one knew that Pollitte and Hermanson would be good, or Cotts and Jenks either.

I could go on, but the point is that while Kenny is telling everyone that he has an amazing plan, other teams are going out and acquiring talent. What have the Sox done? Trade a middle rotation starter and pay $5M to a shortstop who won't even start for us.

I think the "Kenny is infallible" group should start looking objectively at the current status of the team and what KW has done to get it to this point.

santo=dorf
12-04-2007, 06:27 PM
But did you think Pods and El Duque were great acquistions when we got them?
Do you think the competition going into 2008 is at the same level as is was going into 2005? I sure as hell don't.

Palehose Pete
12-04-2007, 06:28 PM
What in the wide, wide world of sports is a goin' on here?

The Kitties re-load with two great, young players and just made Chicago's job A LOT harder next year.

I grudgingly tip my cap to them for pulling this one off.

**** on me.

palehosepub
12-04-2007, 06:29 PM
All we have to do is sign Fukodome and trade Gio Fields and Danks for Bedard. Trade Crede, Contreras, and Uribe for some prospects and bullpen help.

thedudeabides
12-04-2007, 06:30 PM
Andrew Miller almost had a better ERA+ last year (81) than Willis (83). Willis is not that great, he might have some initial good success if AL hitters can't adjust to the delivery but I don't anticipate him ever sniffing 2nd in Cy Young voting again.


He had a bad year, I'm just saying odds are against Miller throwing 4 straight years with 200+ innings, 68 wins, a 20 win season, and an ERA of 3.78 after his first five seasons.

ChiSoxIn06
12-04-2007, 06:30 PM
Has beens?

By far the dumbest post I've ever read.

ok when those 3 are averaging 250/30/80 next year we shall see and dont get me wrong i would love for them to succeed but i just dont see it happening.

SoxGirl4Life
12-04-2007, 06:32 PM
Do you think the competition going into 2008 is at the same level as is was going into 2005? I sure as hell don't.

No, you're right. The competition is going to be alot tougher. That being said, you just don't know yet how things are going to work out.

Over By There
12-04-2007, 06:36 PM
What a thread. A division rival makes a big trade, and now:

1) Our GM put together a world champion based on dumb luck

2) Members are ready to bolt to supporting AL West teams in 2008

3) Our lineup is made up of "has-beens"

Folks, it's December. Think back to the 05/06 offseason. I remember a certain team that offseason that seemingly added a powerful bat and solidified a great rotation to strenghten an already great team. No doubt that team was going to stroll to the title... but it didn't work out that way for the Sox, did it? Relax - this deal is not good news, but the reactions in this thread are ridiculous.

Palehose Pete
12-04-2007, 06:36 PM
NASHVILLE, Tenn. – The Tigers have acquired third baseman Miguel Cabrera and left-hander Dontrelle Willis from the Florida Marlins in exchange for a package of six prospects including outfielder Cameron Maybin and left-hander Andrew Miller.
The package of prospects includes catcher Mike Rabelo, RHP Burke Badenhop, RHP Eulogio de la Cruz and RHP Dallas Trahern from the organization.
As a result of the move, the Tigers are now willing to move Marcus Thames, Brandon Inge and Chad Durbin.


Seriously, for what the Marlins received in return for Willis and Cabrera, why didn't the Tigers also throw in something valuable, like a Juggs pitching machine. Christ, they practically gave the Tigers Cabrera and Willis.

Why didn't the Sox do this for at least Cabrera?

the1tab
12-04-2007, 06:37 PM
When I read about this deal it was essentially a kick in the crotch.

Willis is on the downturn, but he's still a nasty young lefthander that, at the bottom of a rotation and with Kenny Rogers to mentor him and maybe buy him braces, he's a solid score.

Miguel Cabrera... geez. They're roster is up there w/ NY and Boston now. They're not playing to be competitive in the Central with this move. While you might argue by trading Miller and Maybin is mortgaging their future for the present, remember that Cabrera is 24 yrs old and now they can put Inge in the OF next to Granderson. They have enough experienced youth mixed in w/ solid vets that they can afford (unlike the Sox) to move a guy like Andrew Miller. Coming up w/ another C for Pudge in a couple years isn't going to be that hard... especially when you're a winner.

**** is right.

:angry:

JB98
12-04-2007, 06:38 PM
ok when those 3 are averaging 250/30/80 next year we shall see and dont get me wrong i would love for them to succeed but i just dont see it happening.

Jim Thome has never hit below .266 in his career, except for the year in Philly where he was hurt. What makes you think he's going to hit .250 next year?

Paul Konerko is a lifetime .281 hitter. He's 31. He's not old. He hit .259 in a TERRIBLE 2007. It isn't going to get any worse than last season for Paul.

Jermaine might hit .250, but he might hit .300 too. We've seen both in his years with the Sox.

You're barking up the wrong tree if you're looking for the Sox weaknesses.

It's Time
12-04-2007, 06:42 PM
Dombrowski's off season:

Renteria, Cabrera and Willis.

KW's off season:

Linebrink, Cabrera, Uribe and Quentin. :rolleyes:

Ouch.

FloridaTigers
12-04-2007, 06:42 PM
They look good for the next couple years. Afterwards is a different story, though. They just lost a lot, and that team isn't getting any younger.

Not really.

Sheffield, Magglio, Pudge, Guillen and Renteria may be aging, but the pitching is young. This is how Dombrowski builds his teams. He trades and signs free agents for offense, drafts pitching. The farm system wasn't depleted at all. We have Porcello, Iorg, Hollimon and alot of younger talent. Give Dombrowski three seasons and he'll build the talent right back. And when Sheffield and Guillen retire, I'm sure he'll be ready to trade for new pieces.

soxfanreggie
12-04-2007, 06:43 PM
1.) This trade, if it takes form, is why the Marlins win a World Series every so often. They get a lot of young talent, develop it (with a little luck as well), and grow as a team. They win the Series and by then everyone becomes a FA and leaves town for bigger bucks. Then the process seems to start again.

2.) Dye, Konerko, and Thome are good hitters, but if they're struggling and don't produce, this team will have a hard time winning. We have a heck of a lot of money tied up in them, and none of them are young guys. I only see 1 of them being around the team after 2009, if that. Hopefully, as long as they are here, they produce. If we have a replay of the start of '07 for Dye and PK, and we could be in trouble.

3.) While it helps that the Twins are likely to lose Johan and have already lost Torii, the critical pieces they get back for him now could hurt in a couple years when the Tigers are more and have to pay their FAs.

gogosox16
12-04-2007, 06:44 PM
All we have to do is sign Fukodome and trade Gio Fields and Danks for Bedard. Trade Crede, Contreras, and Uribe for some prospects and bullpen help.
If only it was that easy to do

Palehose Pete
12-04-2007, 06:45 PM
Dombrowski's off season:

Renteria, Cabrera and Willis.

KW's off season:

Linebrink, Uribe and Quentin. :rolleyes:

Ouch.

When you lay it out like that, wow. I mean, really, wow. Under the radar? How about not off the ground.

Wow.

JB98
12-04-2007, 06:45 PM
1.) This trade, if it takes form, is why the Marlins win a World Series every so often. They get a lot of young talent, develop it (with a little luck as well), and grow as a team. They win the Series and by then everyone becomes a FA and leaves town for bigger bucks. Then the process seems to start again.

2.) Dye, Konerko, and Thome are good hitters, but if they're struggling and don't produce, this team will have a hard time winning. We have a heck of a lot of money tied up in them, and none of them are young guys. I only see 1 of them being around the team after 2009, if that. Hopefully, as long as they are here, they produce. If we have a replay of the start of '07 for Dye and PK, and we could be in trouble.

We need some others around those three who can help. Everybody slumps at some point, although Dye's slump at the start of last year was catastrophic for the team.

There were many days last year where I said, "If Jim and Paul don't do it, no one will." We have to get away from that.

gogosox16
12-04-2007, 06:46 PM
Dombrowski's off season:

Renteria, Cabrera and Willis.

KW's off season:

Linebrink, Uribe and Quentin. :rolleyes:

Ouch.
Well we got our own Cabrera

russ99
12-04-2007, 06:46 PM
What a thread. A division rival makes a big trade, and now:

1) Our GM put together a world champion based on dumb luck

2) Members are ready to bolt to supporting AL West teams in 2008

3) Our lineup is made up of "has-beens"

Folks, it's December. Think back to the 05/06 offseason. I remember a certain team that offseason that seemingly added a powerful bat and solidified a great rotation to strenghten an already great team. No doubt that team was going to stroll to the title... but it didn't work out that way for the Sox, did it? Relax - this deal is not good news, but the reactions in this thread are ridiculous.

POTW. Seriously.

If these dark clouders can't take the heat, get outta the kitchen.

If I can go to all those games last year when the Sox stunk up the joint (Twins DH, shudder) I surely can support the team with the changes Kenny's making.

We got a long-awaited setup man, a solid #2 hitting defensive SS, a pretty decent young LF, and I suspect the best is to come from Kenny this offseason. The Sox by no means are out of it just because the Tigers made a deal today.

rowand33
12-04-2007, 06:47 PM
I'm calling Vegas to put money on Cabrera being AL MVP.

Look at this team:

1. C. Granderson (CF)
2. P. Polanco (2B)
3. M. Cabrera (3B)
4. M. Ordonez (RF)
5. G. Sheffield (DH)
6. C. Guillen (1B)
7. E. Renteria (SS)
8. I. Rodriguez (C)
9. J. Jones (LF)

Bench: M. Thames, B. Inge, R. Santiago, V. Wilson

SP- J. Verlander
SP- J. Bonderman
SP- K. Rogers
SP- D. Willis
SP- N. Robertson
CP- Jones
SU- Zumaya

There aren't enough dark cloud tags in the world right now...

KW... go out there and do something that will compete with this. I still have faith that we can win.

Dick Allen
12-04-2007, 06:47 PM
Geez, who the **** cares whether the Sox finish 3rd or 4th?! If they can't make the playoffs, they may as well finish last. By the way, **** Maggs.

It's Time
12-04-2007, 06:48 PM
My goodness. Look at this lineup and staff. 110 wins?

CF: Granderson .(L)
2B: Polanco ........(R)
DH: Sheffield ......(R)
RF: Ordonez .......(R)
1B: Guillen.......... (S)
3B: Cabrera.........(R)
SS: Renteria .......(R)
LF: Jones............ (L)
C: Rodriguez....... (R)

SP
Verlander....(R)
Willis............(L)
Bonderman..(R)
Rogers.........(L)
Robertson....(L)

rowand33
12-04-2007, 06:48 PM
for what it's worth...

people thought the white sox were going to win 120 games in 2006.

HawkDJ
12-04-2007, 06:52 PM
This obviously sucks but honestly, you know if we traded Fields, Gio and Danks for Cabrera, WSI would be outraged.

Chicken Dinner
12-04-2007, 06:53 PM
My goodness. Look at this lineup and staff. 110 wins?

CF: Granderson .(L)
2B: Polanco ........(R)
DH: Sheffield ......(R)
RF: Ordonez .......(R)
1B: Guillen.......... (S)
3B: Cabrera.........(R)
SS: Renteria .......(R)
LF: Jones............ (L)
C: Rodriguez....... (R)

SP
Verlander....(R)
Willis............(L)
Bonderman..(R)
Rogers.........(L)
Robertson....(L)

It's not that good. A good line up yes, but they WILL have pitching problems.

russ99
12-04-2007, 06:55 PM
Geez, who the **** cares whether the Sox finish 3rd or 4th?! If they can't make the playoffs, they may as well finish last. By the way, **** Maggs.

That's the spirit.

It would be really nice to make the playoffs and win again, and that is what we're all shooting for, but my #1 wish for the Sox in 2008 is for it to be fun to watch Sox baseball again. 85-95 wins and I'll be happy. Playoffs would be a nice bonus.

As for the vaunted 2008 Tigers lineup: it amazes me. Those guys are even older than our core team. One or two go down with an injury, and its all up for grabs.

rowand33
12-04-2007, 07:00 PM
from yahoo sports:


The big problem, of course, is the bullpen, where Joel Zumaya (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7630/;_ylt=ArEfwMogwwK2DpXEp5flJgYEvLYF) is out for at least half the year and Detroit will hope that Fernando Rodney (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6922/;_ylt=Ap5T3VVQEF_mCM0bODjmRH8EvLYF) can bounce back and be an effective setup man for closer Todd Jones (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5082/;_ylt=Ao.huKKEi.CU8kYMg.3cwssEvLYF). That problem has gone unaddressed.
That's what makes the Tigers' pursuit of Willis and Cabrera of particular interest. More pitching and more hitting are welcome, but they weren't desperate for either guy. This trade is not necessarily rational, and the speed at which it went down--the two teams were seen cuddling up to each other just hours ago--indicates that there was some impulse buying here. Sometimes, finishing second makes a team do irrational things. That's the best indication that the Indians and Tigers have developed into a full-blown rivalry, a la Yankees-Red Sox. One's success is making the other take drastic action.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AtYnfH92amznKGfZS14OA1GFCLcF?slug=megade aldoesntaddresstig&prov=tsn&type=lgns

WhiteSox5187
12-04-2007, 07:03 PM
It's not that good. A good line up yes, but they WILL have pitching problems.
I don't know...that's a pretty good rotation. Their weakness is their bullpen. Right now they're my pick for the AL Central, but if the Sox make the right moves we can give 'em a hard time (who here was worried about the Tigers heading into '06??), we always play 'em tough and THEY STILL HAVE TO PLAY THE GAMES.

It's a great trade for the Tigers however.

cbotnyse
12-04-2007, 07:05 PM
This really sucks. These are two players I really like and was hoping would come to the Sox, and now they end up going to the ****ing Tigers. This really pisses me off.

Palehose Pete
12-04-2007, 07:07 PM
Geez, who the **** cares whether the Sox finish 3rd or 4th?! If they can't make the playoffs, they may as well finish last. By the way, **** Maggs.

Yes, ****, Maggs, indeed.

Dick Allen
12-04-2007, 07:08 PM
That's the spirit.

It would be really nice to make the playoffs and win again, and that is what we're all shooting for, but my #1 wish for the Sox in 2008 is for it to be fun to watch Sox baseball again. 85-95 wins and I'll be happy. Playoffs would be a nice bonus.

As for the vaunted 2008 Tigers lineup: it amazes me. Those guys are even older than our core team. One or two go down with an injury, and its all up for grabs.




My point was simply that finishing 3rd, 4th, or 5th is meaningless unless it is a very young time making progress. That is not the case here. The way this team is structured, they better make the playoffs now or we'll be waiting a looong time. This isn't the North Side, mediocrity doesn't sell to South Siders.

FedEx227
12-04-2007, 07:09 PM
I don't know...that's a pretty good rotation. Their weakness is their bullpen. Right now they're my pick for the AL Central, but if the Sox make the right moves we can give 'em a hard time (who here was worried about the Tigers heading into '06??), we always play 'em tough and THEY STILL HAVE TO PLAY THE GAMES.

It's a great trade for the Tigers however.

Don't forget about the Indians.

Or the Twins who could potentially keep Santana this year along with Liriano.

RowanDye
12-04-2007, 07:10 PM
Losing to the Tigers always sucks, but I think this opens up an obvious trade with the Angels.

Why don't we ship Konerko and/or Crede for a package of the players they were talking about giving up for Cabrera?

HawkDJ
12-04-2007, 07:10 PM
Is there any word on who the 3 pitchers are in this deal? If Rotoworld is correct, the Tigers just traded 5 of their top 10 prospects according to BP in 2006.

goon
12-04-2007, 07:11 PM
It's not that good. A good line up yes, but they WILL have pitching problems.

Agreed. I don't think their pitching is NEARLY as good as it looks on paper. Verlander is a stud, no doubt about it, but after that, meh.

Willlis MAY benefit from playing in a slightly better pitcher's park and AL lineups don't know him very well, but he's coming to a much stronger league and he looked god awful last season. He's still young though, that's a bonus... Rogers could be solid, but who really knows? He's getting older, he barely pitched last season with that blood clot and when he did, he wasn't that great.

Bonderman has electric stuff, but for whatever reason (maybe his age, control?) it hasn't translated into success, he was awful last season coming off a promising '06. Nate Robertson? Whatever. He's a good back of the rotation guy, that's it.

That's a rotation built more on potential than anything, but they still have to put it all together. Cabrera is an awesome pickup though, Tiger fans should be going nuts.

WhiteSox5187
12-04-2007, 07:20 PM
Don't forget about the Indians.

Or the Twins who could potentially keep Santana this year along with Liriano.
I'm not saying that it will be easy or that it's a sure thing, my MAIN point here is that I'm not ready to give up on the season on December 4th, now if come March 30th we still ahve these question marks, then I might be a little more anxious. But we'll see what moves we make. We can still fix this team and make it competitive.

champagne030
12-04-2007, 07:22 PM
It's not that good. A good line up yes, but they WILL have pitching problems.

If they're going to have pitching problems what the **** is in store for us?

thegooch
12-04-2007, 07:25 PM
from yahoo sports:



http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AtYnfH92amznKGfZS14OA1GFCLcF?slug=megade aldoesntaddresstig&prov=tsn&type=lgns

What really sucks about this article is that the Sox, after winning the WS three years ago, don't even get mentioned as a player in the central.

Brian26
12-04-2007, 07:26 PM
It's not that good. A good line up yes, but they WILL have pitching problems.

I don't know about their pitching, but that lineup looks like it will beat our brains in 17 times next year. It's stacked up and down with talent, along with some proverbial Sox killers in Jones and Guillen.

goon
12-04-2007, 07:27 PM
If they're going to have pitching problems what the **** is in store for us?

That's fairly obvious. Behind Buehrle and Vazquez, it gets a bit messy. It's expecting a lot to assume Contreras to regain his 2005 form or for Danks to be lights out. That's not really the topic, though. The Tigers rotation is. Granted, it looks a lot better than ours, but it is NO WHERE near the Red Sox or Angels. It looks about on par with the Jndians, in fact I'd take Sabathia, Carmona, Westbrook and Byrd over the Tigers.

That lineup should be amazing though. Should be.

BadBobbyJenks
12-04-2007, 07:31 PM
What's with WSI's obsession that farm systems are only built through Top 5 picks.

Go talk to the Atlanta Braves about that one. Or David Wright. Or Albert Pujols.

Btw, Granderson was picked in the 3rd round, 10 spots later the White Sox picked up the mighty Josh Rupe. That year we also had a Top 20 pick, we picked #18 and got Royce Ring. Picks directly after Ring: James Loney, Jeff Francouer, Joe Blanton, Matt Cain.


It dont matter what pick the sox have when we are the ones doing the picking

thomas35forever
12-04-2007, 07:36 PM
The Tigers are going to be real contenders for years to come because of this deal. This had to happen in the Central, didn't it? What a dangerous lineup we're going to have to face.

TomBradley72
12-04-2007, 07:38 PM
I disagree with this. I don't think Dave Dombrowski is all he's hyped up to be. He's a risk taker; that's it. What happens when he runs out of luck?

His teams will look like the 2007-2008 White Sox.

jabrch
12-04-2007, 07:43 PM
Cabrera certainly makes them better....but I can't really say the same about Willis. I think the game has caught up to him.

I wish we'd have been able to get Miguel. I think that was Plan 1A or at least 1b for Kenny...

jabrch
12-04-2007, 07:45 PM
Is there any word on who the 3 pitchers are in this deal? If Rotoworld is correct, the Tigers just traded 5 of their top 10 prospects according to BP in 2006.

And really the best player left in their system wasn't eligible to be traded yet (Porcello) and is just out of HS and a long way from making the majors.

MiamiSpartan
12-04-2007, 07:45 PM
I hate this on several levels"
1. The Marlins losing these superstars...
2. The White Sox NOT getting them
3. The Tigers getting them...

The Sox don't seem to be making much of an effort in improving the team....what the hell is going on???

TomBradley72
12-04-2007, 07:46 PM
The White Sox and KW are continuing to be backed into a corner based on a lack of major league level trade bait and one of the most mediocre farm systems in MLB.

I'm willing to wait until spring training to see if any moves unfold...but KW's lack of effectiveness in building a solid White Sox farm system (after having significant roles in player development for over a decade) could be his undoing and lead this franchise to a complete rebuilding phase ala 1998-1999 or 1988-1989.

jabrch
12-04-2007, 07:48 PM
trade Gio Fields and Danks for Bedard.

No thanks....

nccwsfan
12-04-2007, 07:48 PM
:rolleyes:POTW. Seriously.

If these dark clouders can't take the heat, get outta the kitchen.

If I can go to all those games last year when the Sox stunk up the joint (Twins DH, shudder) I surely can support the team with the changes Kenny's making.

We got a long-awaited setup man, a solid #2 hitting defensive SS, a pretty decent young LF, and I suspect the best is to come from Kenny this offseason. The Sox by no means are out of it just because the Tigers made a deal today.

In 06' the White Sox were supposed to run away with the division. Improved lineup (Thome), same killer pitching staff. Didn't happen.
In 07' the Tigers were supposed to run away with the division. Improved lineup (Sheffield), same killer pitching staff. Didn't happen.

If Spring Training starts tomorrow I'm a little worried. Luckily for us it's December 4th and KW has 2-3 months to make the moves necessary to retool this team for 08'. None of us truly know what they have in mind now, but I'll give benefit of the doubt to the GM that did put together a WS champion over the WSI GM's every single day. GIVE IT TIME....that's not being a KW homer, that's taking a deep breath and knowing there's plenty of time to get the right pieces in place.

Tip your cap to the Tigers for making this move- getting Cabrera at this stage of his career is huge. Willis is an slightly above average pitcher in the NL who will be average in the AL.

I'm amazed at how some posters here would actually post that they'll follow another team because we haven't won in two years and the offseason is not living up to their expectations....your loyalty is to be commended:rolleyes:.

havelj
12-04-2007, 07:50 PM
Check out D-Train's past 3 years:
(2005-2006-2007)

WINS: 22-12-10
ERA: 2.63-3.87-5.17
WHIP: 1.13-1.42-1.60
BA-.243-.274-.294
HRs: 11-21-29
CG: 7-4-0
IP: 236-223-205

cws05champ
12-04-2007, 07:52 PM
Is there any word on who the 3 pitchers are in this deal? If Rotoworld is correct, the Tigers just traded 5 of their top 10 prospects according to BP in 2006.

I think if the Sox had traded Danks, Gio, Fields, DLS and Sweeney for these two, WSI servers would explode! Don't get me wrong, it would have been great to get these two but I think a lot of people would have been angered.

Jerome
12-04-2007, 08:12 PM
yikes. Cabrera would have meant so much to this offseason for the Sox. Who is left for us out there to fix the outfield?

see you in 09

nccwsfan
12-04-2007, 08:12 PM
Check out D-Train's past 3 years:
(2005-2006-2007)

WINS: 22-12-10
ERA: 2.63-3.87-5.17
WHIP: 1.13-1.42-1.60
BA-.243-.274-.294
HRs: 11-21-29
CG: 7-4-0
IP: 236-223-205

Positive spin for Tiger fans- the 2007 Marlins ranked dead last in defense, and Willis' numbers could improve with an average defense behind him. Negative spin for Tiger fans- he's not pitching in the NL anymore. He'd better get a lot of run support from his offense.

Average pitcher with above average hype thrown in to get M Cabrera.

drewcifer
12-04-2007, 08:14 PM
Check out D-Train's past 3 years:
(2005-2006-2007)

WINS: 22-12-10
ERA: 2.63-3.87-5.17
WHIP: 1.13-1.42-1.60
BA-.243-.274-.294
HRs: 11-21-29
CG: 7-4-0
IP: 236-223-205

Nice work.

kobo
12-04-2007, 08:15 PM
What really sucks about this article is that the Sox, after winning the WS three years ago, don't even get mentioned as a player in the central.
Why would they? They lost 90 games last year.

thegooch
12-04-2007, 08:20 PM
Why would they? They lost 90 games last year.

I don't know. Maybe because our GM said he was "embarrassed" about last year, and was gonna do what he could to help us win now.

Granted the offseason isn't over yet, but our division rivals have just gotten a heck of a lot better.

Frater Perdurabo
12-04-2007, 08:24 PM
Positive spin for Tiger fans- the 2007 Marlins ranked dead last in defense, and Willis' numbers could improve with an average defense behind him. Negative spin for Tiger fans- he's not pitching in the NL anymore. He'd better get a lot of run support from his offense.

Average pitcher with above average hype thrown in to get M Cabrera.

Willis also was throwing in a big-time pitchers' park in Florida, at sea level, where the air is most dense and therefore batted balls tend to die (they fly further in thinner air at higher elevations). In addition, the dense sea-level air helps breaking balls break better. So his slider and curve likely will not be quite as effective in Detroit (623 feet above sea level, which is higher than Chicago's elevation, which is about 580 feet).

balke
12-04-2007, 08:27 PM
Granted the offseason isn't over yet, but our division rivals have just gotten a heck of a lot better.

Nothing's even happened yet. Nothing's official. I for one would be glad to see Santana leave, and Andrew Miller develop elsewhere. Miller is a 6'6" lefty who started right after being drafted. Get him the heck out of here. Cabrera will come here when his contract is up anyway.

Jerome
12-04-2007, 08:28 PM
What's with WSI's obsession that farm systems are only built through Top 5 picks.

Go talk to the Atlanta Braves about that one. Or David Wright. Or Albert Pujols.

Btw, Granderson was picked in the 3rd round, 10 spots later the White Sox picked up the mighty Josh Rupe. That year we also had a Top 20 pick, we picked #18 and got Royce Ring. Picks directly after Ring: James Loney, Jeff Francouer, Joe Blanton, Matt Cain.

:o:

cws05champ
12-04-2007, 08:35 PM
Anyone else want to pitch in and send a package of Portillos Beef Sandwiches, Donuts, Candy and McDonalds gift cards to Miguel Cabrera? :tongue:

gogosox16
12-04-2007, 08:38 PM
Anyone else want to pitch in and send a package of Portillos Beef Sandwiches, Donuts, Candy and McDonalds gift cards to Miguel Cabrera? :tongue:
Now, Now Cabrera is gonna lay off the McDonalds and switch to KFC

Hendu
12-04-2007, 08:46 PM
Holy ****. The ante has been upped in our division and unfortunately we don't have the cards. Great move for the Tigers. :angry:

Sockinchisox
12-04-2007, 08:46 PM
Less than a minute after listening to that message and doing his best to shake off the standing eight-count, Williams got a call from Sox outfielder Jermaine Dye asking what happened. Dye wasn't the only one asking that question as the Sox' offseason continued to go terribly wrong from what was hoped for.

Yes, they added shortstop Orlando Cabrera in a trade and free-agent reliever Scott Linebrink, but free-agent outfielder Torii Hunter and Miguel Cabrera were supposed to be the ''big fish'' that Williams spoke about three weeks ago. Those were the names Dye and Mark Buehrle were given when they signed contract extensions midway through the 2007 season.
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/680978,sox120407a.article

RallyBowl
12-04-2007, 08:53 PM
Is there any chance at all that Kenny could still come in and make it happen?

JB98
12-04-2007, 09:04 PM
Is there any chance at all that Kenny could still come in and make it happen?

No.

ShoelessJoeS
12-04-2007, 09:09 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/680978,sox120407a.articleI'd certainly hate to be a buffet table right now...

rowand33
12-04-2007, 09:10 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/680978,sox120407a.article

That article was incredibly depressing.

Lip Man 1
12-04-2007, 09:11 PM
What's worse is that the article appears to be true as far as how things have been 'progressing' this off season.

Lip

TomBradley72
12-04-2007, 09:19 PM
What's worse is that the article appears to be true as far as how things have been 'progressing' this off season.

Lip

Little talent in farm system (to help the club or for trade bait) + Lack of willingness to pay/overpay in FA market = Mediocre Outlook for 2008.

Tigers and Angels simply expended more resources to get it done.

hi im skot
12-04-2007, 09:39 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/680978,sox120407a.article

Ugh.

EndemicSox
12-04-2007, 09:43 PM
I'm of the belief that Willis is THIS close to being washed up, only so many bullets in that arm left with his motion. Cabrera, on the other hand, will terrorize the White Sox for the next decade(if he doesn't eat himself out of the league). The Tigers did give up a ton for these two, who knows how this trade looks three years from now.

Sockinchisox
12-04-2007, 09:48 PM
KW Speaks:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071204&content_id=2317873&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

IlliniSox4Life
12-04-2007, 09:54 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/680978,sox120407a.article

Wow, if that is true, that really pisses me off.

If Kenny tells Buehrle and Dye that he is going to get Hunter and Cabrera in the off season to get the to sign extensions and he does neither, that is crap. I just would really like to know how strongly he suggested he was going to get them and how much his rebuilding plans really did play a roll in their re-signings.

I don't think that it's a HUGE deal that we didn't get Cabrera. I certainly think that him going to Detroit sucks. However if Kenny told JD and Buehrle that, he should have gotten the guys. Throw in a deal for Dontrelle too, you can always get more pitching.

rowand33
12-04-2007, 09:54 PM
KW Speaks:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071204&content_id=2317873&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

I found the Rowand part to be kind of funny.

and I found this part:


"For us, it's not as much about impact superstar guys we are looking for," Williams added. "It's a baseball player, another player who can give you quality defense and hard-nosed at-bats."

to be depressing (even though I agree with it to a degree).

Who is gong to leadoff for this team? Who is going to play CF?

If the answer to both of those questions is "Jerry Owens" I'm going to be bummed out. But, honestly, not much more bummed out than if the answer is "Coco Crisp"

voodoochile
12-04-2007, 10:17 PM
Red Sox
Angels
Yankees
Tigers

Holy ****ing crap!

If Santana does go to one of the teams listed above not named Detroit, it's just going to get that much harder to win the AL next season.

Brian26
12-04-2007, 10:22 PM
Wow, if that is true, that really pisses me off.

If Kenny tells Buehrle and Dye that he is going to get Hunter and Cabrera in the off season to get the to sign extensions and he does neither, that is crap.


It's not "crap" if he made a legitimate run at both guys. It appears Hunter was a day or two away from signing with the Sox, and the Sox apparently just missed getting Miggy today if the reports were true about them getting ready to make a big announcement. There are 29 other teams out there KW has to contend with.

champagne030
12-04-2007, 10:26 PM
I found the Rowand part to be kind of funny.

and I found this part:



to be depressing (even though I agree with it to a degree).

Who is gong to leadoff for this team? Who is going to play CF?

If the answer to both of those questions is "Jerry Owens" I'm going to be bummed out. But, honestly, not much more bummed out than if the answer is "Coco Crisp"

Maybe we'll get GrindErstad back, he puts together "hard-nosed" AB's. :rolleyes:

FedEx227
12-04-2007, 10:26 PM
"For us, it's not as much about impact superstar guys we are looking for," Williams added. "It's a baseball player, another player who can give you quality defense and hard-nosed at-bats."

Aw, geez... here come the adjectives. Gritty and passionate can't be far behind.

Sockinchisox
12-05-2007, 12:12 AM
Ozzie (or kinda his wife) broke the news to Cabrera about being traded to the Tigers.

NASHVILLE, Tenn. -- When Chicago White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen called his wife Tuesday evening to tell her that the Tigers had just traded for Miguel Cabrera, Ibis Guillen had a surprising response.


``That's funny,'' she said to Ozzie. ``He's sitting in the car right next to me.''


The Guillens and Cabreras are good friends, and Ibis Guillen was driving Miguel Cabrera to the airport in Miami. Cabrera was on his way home to Venezuela.


http://www.mlive.com/tigers/index.ssf/2007/12/chicagos_guillen_breaks_the_ne.html

CubsfansareDRUNK
12-05-2007, 12:29 AM
Is this deal officially done yet?

Domeshot17
12-05-2007, 01:00 AM
It's not "crap" if he made a legitimate run at both guys. It appears Hunter was a day or two away from signing with the Sox, and the Sox apparently just missed getting Miggy today if the reports were true about them getting ready to make a big announcement. There are 29 other teams out there KW has to contend with.

The problem is Kenny has to know HIS team. We have NO EDGE at all over any contending team competing for an FA like Hunter, so the only way to land one is with an extra year or extra money. If we were out there with other teams for the same money, or in the same ballpark, we will lose most times. Players dont see Chicago as a place they go to win a world series right now so if you really have to have one, you have to be willing to overpay. I know people are saying 18 a year WOULD handicap us down the road, but really anymore then 15 would have? Especially in 5 years when 18 mil might be what 14 mil is today. We are talking the loss of Uribe to make up for the salary difference.

With the Cabrera trade you can't argue a ton. We draft and develop terribly, which is why we don't have the weapons to make a HUGE splash, especially when it gets in a bidding war. I believe Kenny would have sent the pieces he had to to get Miguel, but the pieces were just not there.

I think we can get a few guys and maybe make a run at the wild card this year if all goes well, but part of me thinks its all just like putting a band-aid on a bullet hole. We need a complete overhaul of the minor league system, we need to do a better job of international scouting and recruiting (although DLS is a big big start), We need to get rid of this grinder mentality before we end up with a new version of Erstad every year and finally we need to stop making offers and trades like a mid market team.

Foulke You
12-05-2007, 01:36 AM
Red Sox
Angels
Yankees
Tigers

Holy ****ing crap!

If Santana does go to one of the teams listed above not named Detroit, it's just going to get that much harder to win the AL next season.
Yep, the American League is getting ridiculous. There are so many powerhouse teams that it is going to be really tough next year.

Meanwhile, crickets are chirping with most of the NL clubs. The reason they aren't spending money? Their competitors aren't.

BeviBall!
12-05-2007, 03:24 AM
And with this move, the Sox have become the Blue Jays of the Central. Ugh.

Navarro's Talent
12-05-2007, 06:29 AM
Wow, things are not going well for the White Sox or us fans right now. Until yesterday's reports, though, I didn't even know the Sox were in the running for Cabrera.

I'm at a loss of words as to where the Sox go from here. Things are looking really good for Tigers fans, though. :angry:

soxinem1
12-05-2007, 06:35 AM
You have to give credit where credit is due. When Dombrowski snagged Renteria right after the World Series, KW and all of MLB should have known that DET meant business.

My Congratulations to the 2008 AL Central Champion Detroit Tigers.

The only question is, who bats eighth and ninth?

soxfanreggie
12-05-2007, 06:51 AM
There should be a revenue-sharing rule that you cannot get more in revenue-sharing than you have as a payroll. With a potential $8 million payroll, the Marlins would likely look to bank a lot of money just on revenue sharing. Revenue-sharing shouldn't be there for a team to make a profit; it is supposed to help make them more competitive.

I'm guessing season ticket sales dropped big time after this was announced, unless they got people to lock in before this happened.

Rockabilly
12-05-2007, 07:08 AM
How did Cabrera find out he'd been traded? Ozzie Guillen's wife told him. Guillen's wife and Cabrera's wife are close friends. So when Guillen called his wife to tell her that Cabrera had just been traded, she replied: "Guess what? He's sitting right next to me. I'm driving him to the airport."

voodoochile
12-05-2007, 10:40 AM
And with this move, the Sox have become the Blue Jays of the Central. Ugh.

Long term the Sox can outspend any team in the division. No way we're the Jays. Even if next year isn't everything a Sox fan could ask for KW won't let the team suck forever.

Hitmen77
12-05-2007, 11:44 AM
I wonder what Oblong's take is on this trade. No doubt he's thrilled to get Cabrera, but I'd be interested in hearing his take on the players the Tigers gave up to get him.

Sockinchisox
12-05-2007, 12:11 PM
12:58 p.m., from Amy Nelson
Since news broke of the Marlins-Tigers blockbuster, Detroit left-hander Andrew Miller has not heard a word from anyone in the Tigers' organization. One of Miller's agents ran into Jim Leyland in the hotel lobby Tuesday night, and Leyland told him the deal wasn't anywhere close to getting done. What is unclear is whether any of the eight players involved have to physically be examined, which is why the trade could be held up. So far, Miller and his agents have not been told anything. Word is that the deal might not be completed until after the winter meetings -- unless there are other factors preventing it from getting done. Miller, in fact, is working out at the Tigers' spring training complex in Lakeland, Fla. He met with the trainers this morning, had his sore left knee worked on, and is now out playing golf with some of his teammates. Late in the season, Miller had an MRI on his left knee, where it turned out there was some mild cartilage damage. He's been rehabbing it ever since. Since he's officially still a Tiger, he wasn't denied treatment.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=winter_meetings

Oblong
12-05-2007, 12:41 PM
I wonder what Oblong's take is on this trade. No doubt he's thrilled to get Cabrera, but I'd be interested in hearing his take on the players the Tigers gave up to get him.

Considering the Sox were hot after Cabrera I felt it best to stay away and just lurk for awhile.

I hate giving away prospects but 36 hours ago if you asked for the player(s) I'd include Maybin in a package for and it would only be Cabrera. He's what you hope Maybin becomes so why not get a 24 year old version of him. I knew any discussions for him would have to include both Miller and Maybin, the question was how many more guys. Rabelo isn't worth discussing. Every team has a couple of guys like him in their system. The other 3 prospects are decent, with Trahern being the best of them. De La Cruz would have probably made the team out of ST. The other guy was low level.

The Tigers have traded like 8 prospects in the past two seasons and it's funny how it's natural to overrate your own guys. Immediately after each was dealt I started thinking about the negative things about them. Jurrjens is soft, not a hard thrower, durability issues, Hernandez is only 19, Sanchez is injury prone, etc.

Dombrowski's definately "All In" for the next 2 years. Now the pressure is on. Anything less than an AL pennant could be considered a choke and will definately be a major disappointment. I'll always give credit to someone for
having guts.

ilsox7
12-05-2007, 12:43 PM
I'd wrap every prospect in bubble wrap until the trade is complete if I were Detroit.

Grzegorz
12-05-2007, 12:51 PM
Dombrowski's definately "All In" for the next 2 years. Now the pressure is on. Anything less than an AL pennant could be considered a choke and will definately be a major disappointment. I'll always give credit to someone for
having guts.

This is a good deal for the Tigers. A team like the Tigers have a solid core of players; these types of teams must play for today.

Dombrowski has shown that he knows how to draft. The Tigers future looks bright.

Oblong
12-05-2007, 01:47 PM
I actually wanted to post this:

:hawk

Where's he gonna play?

You know. Seeing as we've already got Inge and just signed Jones for LF.

Flight #24
12-05-2007, 01:50 PM
Long term the Sox can outspend any team in the division. No way we're the Jays. Even if next year isn't everything a Sox fan could ask for KW won't let the team suck forever.

Detroit certainly isn't behaving that way, expecially not when you factor in the way the draft.

Paulwny
12-05-2007, 01:50 PM
I actually wanted to post this:

:hawk

Where's he gonna play?

You know. Seeing as we've already got Inge and just signed Jones for LF.

Dombrowski isn't done, Inge for bull pen help.

soxinem1
12-05-2007, 02:22 PM
Dombrowski isn't done, Inge for bull pen help.

Maybe, but he's a good catcher, CF, and decent 3B.

Would be an excellent super-utility guy for DET.