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Fenway
12-03-2007, 09:46 AM
Gammons just dropped a bombshell on ESPN 890.

The Twins have gotten back to Boston that if Elsbury AND Lester are included in the package the Twins will also send Joe Nathan to Boston.

The Red Sox are mulling over if Nathan could fill the setup role that they thought they had solved with Gagne.

Gammons also says if the Twins move Nathan then they will look at Gagne.

WEEI and ESPN 890 are both broadcasting from Nashville so they will be stirring the pot all day.

Hendu
12-03-2007, 09:55 AM
Boston should make that deal in a heartbeat. I realize that Nathan is not young and will be a free agent soon...but you're talking about having the best rotation in the league and a lights-out bullpen next season.

PorkChopExpress
12-03-2007, 09:57 AM
Gammons just dropped a bombshell on ESPN 890.

The Twins have gotten back to Boston that if Elsbury AND Lester are included in the package the Twins will also send Joe Nathan to Boston.

The Red Sox are mulling over if Nathan could fill the setup role that they thought they had solved with Gagne.

Gammons also says if the Twins move Nathan then they will look at Gagne.

WEEI and ESPN 890 are both broadcasting from Nashville so they will be stirring the pot all day.

That is ridiculous. Elsbury, Bucholz, Lester & Lowrie at least for Santana & Nathan. You're talking about the best pitcher in baseball and one of the best closers. I just don't believe it.

wulfy
12-03-2007, 09:59 AM
That is ridiculous. Elsbury, Bucholz, Lester & Lowrie at least for Santana & Nathan. You're talking about the best pitcher in baseball and one of the best closers. I just don't believe it.

I missed where Bucholz was part of the deal ....

Fenway
12-03-2007, 10:00 AM
As far as we know Buchholz is NOT in the mix.

All the rumors are coming from the Twins and Yankees...the Red Sox are not saying a word to anybody.

Hank Steinbrenner can not keep his mouth shut which right now is only helping Boston.

chisoxmike
12-03-2007, 10:03 AM
Where's otis? Doesn't his "guy" work for the Red Sox?

:rolleyes:

PorkChopExpress
12-03-2007, 10:08 AM
I missed where Bucholz was part of the deal ....

He didn't appear to be. I was saying he should be if the Twins are offering both Santana AND Nathan.

Fenway
12-03-2007, 10:10 AM
Where's otis? Doesn't his "guy" work for the Red Sox?

:rolleyes:

Otis was arrested in North Carolina while driving to Nashville over the weekend
http://tvland.classictvhits.com/AndyGriffith/Pics/AndyGriffith11.JPG

Sargeant79
12-03-2007, 10:12 AM
Gotta admit...it would be really nice to get both of those guys out of our division in time for next season.

I agree with those who say Boston should do that deal. I actually don't quite understand why the Twins would do that...I thought they would be able to dangle Nathan for a top prospect or two on his own merits. They must really like Lester.

Fenway
12-03-2007, 10:38 AM
Red Sox fans are really screaming DON'T DO IT THEO

Caller after caller on WEEI pleading for Boston to walk away

Red Sox Fans Panic At Thought Of Losing Ellsbury (http://wbztv.com/topstories/local_story_337063617.html)

Red Sox fans are panicking now that center fielder rookie sensation Jacoby Ellsbury is on the table in trade talks with the Minnesota Twins. The Sox are bidding against the New York Yankees to acquire ace Johan Santana. And now the Yankees say they are done playing games and want an answer.
http://img.viacomlocalnetworks.com/images_image_281093753 Read Dan Roche's Red Sox Blog (http://www.wbztv.com/soxblog)

http://filmkeltes.blog.hu/media/image/photo/simpson/800px-simpsons_angry_mob.png

Hendu
12-03-2007, 10:49 AM
Red Sox fans are really screaming DON'T DO IT THEO

Caller after caller on WEEI pleading for Boston to walk away

Red Sox Fans Panic At Thought Of Losing Ellsbury (http://wbztv.com/topstories/local_story_337063617.html)

Red Sox fans are panicking now that center fielder rookie sensation Jacoby Ellsbury is on the table in trade talks with the Minnesota Twins. The Sox are bidding against the New York Yankees to acquire ace Johan Santana. And now the Yankees say they are done playing games and want an answer.
http://img.viacomlocalnetworks.com/images_image_281093753 Read Dan Roche's Red Sox Blog (http://www.wbztv.com/soxblog)



Just goes to show how dumb the average fan is. If there's a move that will pretty much guarantee Boston another World Series or 2 (on paper at least), this is it.

thedudeabides
12-03-2007, 11:01 AM
Just goes to show how dumb the average fan is. If there's a move that will pretty much guarantee Boston another World Series or 2 (on paper at least), this is it.

Any Boston fan that wouldn't take this deal doesn't know anything about baseball. If they acquire Santana and Nathan, they'll have the best rotation in baseball to go along with the best back end of the bullpen. Your going to throw that away over Ellsbury? That would be a joke.

Anyway, I really don't believe this rumor. That's not nearly enough for those two.

Goose
12-03-2007, 11:04 AM
Just goes to show how dumb the average fan is. If there's a move that will pretty much guarantee Boston another World Series or 2 (on paper at least), this is it.

Agreed! This goes to show you that Red Sox fans are close kin to Cubs fans. Trade a rookie CF (who seems to be the goods) and other prospects for this Santana guy? No Way! Don't do it, Theo!

Of course, Johan would have to find a place in the rotation on this Boston squad...maybe he can be a #3 or 4...but not for Ellsbury!

Idiots.

Fenway
12-03-2007, 11:08 AM
Just goes to show how dumb the average fan is. If there's a move that will pretty much guarantee Boston another World Series or 2 (on paper at least), this is it.

from Carfardo's blog

Good morning from Nashville. You know you're in Music City when your wakeup call is a taped message from a country and western singer. Me, I was awakened by Whisperin' Bill Anderson.

Reports that Santana has informed the Twins that he won't waive his no-trade clause once the season begins is more likely to accelerate things, but new Twins GM Bill Smith certainly has the option of not being pressured into a decision now.
Are the Sox really willing to give up Jacoby Ellsbury in a Santana deal? I've certainly taken note of what some of you are thinking, judging by the Boston.com poll (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/polls/11_28_07_jacoby/) that at this hour shows 82 percent against moving Jacoby (37,494 votes). I will tell you I spoke with another team's GM yesterday who said he wouldn't hesitate to include Ellsbury in a deal. A very nice player, he said, but Santana would be a Pedro-like acquisition.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2007/12/deal_or_no_deal.html

thedudeabides
12-03-2007, 11:25 AM
from Carfardo's blog

Good morning from Nashville. You know you're in Music City when your wakeup call is a taped message from a country and western singer. Me, I was awakened by Whisperin' Bill Anderson.

Reports that Santana has informed the Twins that he won't waive his no-trade clause once the season begins is more likely to accelerate things, but new Twins GM Bill Smith certainly has the option of not being pressured into a decision now.
Are the Sox really willing to give up Jacoby Ellsbury in a Santana deal? I've certainly taken note of what some of you are thinking, judging by the Boston.com poll (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/polls/11_28_07_jacoby/) that at this hour shows 82 percent against moving Jacoby (37,494 votes). I will tell you I spoke with another team's GM yesterday who said he wouldn't hesitate to include Ellsbury in a deal. A very nice player, he said, but Santana would be a Pedro-like acquisition.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2007/12/deal_or_no_deal.html

I guess I gave Red Sox fans too much credit. That's crazy. It's also why I don't believe these rumors. There is no way they wouldn't have taken this deal if it was on the table.

champagne030
12-03-2007, 11:29 AM
WEEI and ESPN 890 are both broadcasting from Nashville so they will be stirring the pot all day.

AKA - throwing **** at the wall and seeing what sticks........

cws05champ
12-03-2007, 11:32 AM
Agreed! This goes to show you that Red Sox fans are close kin to Cubs fans. Trade a rookie CF (who seems to be the goods) and other prospects for this Santana guy? No Way! Don't do it, Theo!

Of course, Johan would have to find a place in the rotation on this Boston squad...maybe he can be a #3 or 4...but not for Ellsbury!

Idiots.

No kidding...that is why fans are not GM's. Fans fall in love with the potential of prospects way too much. Do you remember the Robert Machado fan club at Wrigley...yea neither do I. Wheras Ellsbury looks good so far, you can not pass on Sntana and Nathan. I would give up whatever prospects they wanted to acquire those two.

Almost any team that acquired those two would be a big favorite in their division/league.

Fenway
12-03-2007, 11:36 AM
AKA - throwing **** at the wall and seeing what sticks........

WEEI is VERY good at that :tongue:

Foulke You
12-03-2007, 11:52 AM
I don't see how Red Sox fans could be upset at that trade possibility even if they have to include Jacoby Elsbury. We're talking Santana and Nathan here! Two all star pitchers. One is a Cy Young candidate every year and arguably the best in the game. The other is a lights out closer combined with Papelbon would make for a very tough 1-2 combination in the 8th and 9th. I don't see the Yankees being able to hang with the Carmines if they pull this trade off.

Tekijawa
12-03-2007, 12:04 PM
Any Boston fan that wouldn't take this deal doesn't know anything about baseball. If they acquire Santana and Nathan, they'll have the best rotation in baseball to go along with the best back end of the bullpen. Your going to throw that away over Ellsbury? That would be a joke.

Anyway, I really don't believe this rumor. That's not nearly enough for those two.


What if we put together a package that include Scott Rufcorn, Jeremy Reed, and Royce Ring?

Fenway
12-03-2007, 12:19 PM
Goodbye Jacoby, hello Johan?


If the Twins insist on the Red Sox including center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury in a trade for lefthanded starter Johan Santana, should Theo pull the trigger on a deal?
No. Jacoby Ellsbury is a potential superstar and a vital part of the future of Red Sox baseball. He's just too valuable to include in a deal for Santana. http://cache.boston.com/images/vote/red.gif 82.1%
Yes, Theo should include Jacoby if he must. Having Santana in the rotation, and signing him to a long-term deal, would make the Sox unstoppable for years to come. And the Sox have Coco to play in center. http://cache.boston.com/images/vote/blue.gif 17.9%
Total votes: 41494

Boston.com's surveys are not scientifically valid. They reflect the opinions of only those who vote. http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/File-Based_Image_Resource/dingbat_arrow_icon.gifMore (http://www.boston.com/help/survey_info/)

WhiteSox5187
12-03-2007, 12:21 PM
Goodbye Jacoby, hello Johan?


If the Twins insist on the Red Sox including center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury in a trade for lefthanded starter Johan Santana, should Theo pull the trigger on a deal?
No. Jacoby Ellsbury is a potential superstar and a vital part of the future of Red Sox baseball. He's just too valuable to include in a deal for Santana. http://cache.boston.com/images/vote/red.gif 82.1%
Yes, Theo should include Jacoby if he must. Having Santana in the rotation, and signing him to a long-term deal, would make the Sox unstoppable for years to come. And the Sox have Coco to play in center. http://cache.boston.com/images/vote/blue.gif 17.9%
Total votes: 41494

Boston.com's surveys are not scientifically valid. They reflect the opinions of only those who vote. http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/File-Based_Image_Resource/dingbat_arrow_icon.gifMore (http://www.boston.com/help/survey_info/)
This poll is only further proof that Red Sox fans are complete morons...the Red Sox should make this trade in a heartbeat.

Fenway
12-03-2007, 01:48 PM
The betting is IF the Red Sox are to do anything it will be sometime tonight.

The Red Sox have shown a history the past few years of trying to make news and knock the Patriots off the front page of the sports section and of course the Pats are playing tonight.

They also start selling regular season tickets for April and May on Saturday ( rest of the season in February )

Something will happen tonight.

ma-gaga
12-03-2007, 03:57 PM
I'm just mulling it over. I think I'd be ok with an: Ellsbury, Lester, Lowrie, low level A or A+ prospect for Santana. That takes care of about 3 holes for the Twins. It's not quite what I'd call "ideal", but I am not sure how much more can be expected.

But I'm liking the Yankees trade less and less. Hughes is nice, but I want a hitter or two, and I'm not that impressed with Melky.

CLR01
12-03-2007, 06:12 PM
But I thought we found out over the weekend that the deal was done and the Saux were just getting him fitting and double checking the spelling of Santana's name on the 2008 WS ring. :dunno:

FedEx227
12-03-2007, 06:16 PM
Boston.com's surveys are not scientifically valid. They reflect the opinions of only those who vote. http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/File-Based_Image_Resource/dingbat_arrow_icon.gifMore (http://www.boston.com/help/survey_info/)

Wow, that's some bombshell news. Why hasn't NBC Nightly News gotten on that one yet?

"Reports show in the 1988 election of George Bush, only those who voted had their vote counted."

ChiSoxFan35
12-03-2007, 09:04 PM
Red Sox fans are really screaming DON'T DO IT THEO

Caller after caller on WEEI pleading for Boston to walk away

Red Sox Fans Panic At Thought Of Losing Ellsbury (http://wbztv.com/topstories/local_story_337063617.html)

Red Sox fans are panicking now that center fielder rookie sensation Jacoby Ellsbury is on the table in trade talks with the Minnesota Twins. The Sox are bidding against the New York Yankees to acquire ace Johan Santana. And now the Yankees say they are done playing games and want an answer.
http://img.viacomlocalnetworks.com/images_image_281093753 Read Dan Roche's Red Sox Blog (http://www.wbztv.com/soxblog)

http://filmkeltes.blog.hu/media/image/photo/simpson/800px-simpsons_angry_mob.png

I listen to a lot of NY sports radio, and surprisingly, this is the consensus there too. I think it is evidence of an east-coast bias, as people are coming up with the conclusion Johan is on the decline, past prime, and injury prone, and the hosts doing nothing to correct them. Some bring up, 'uhh, what if Hughes becomes an ace?'. Why would you even wonder when you have a guaranteed ace on the table? If Hughes ever gets near Santana's level, you'll have to pay him a buttload of money too. The offers sound like a joke to me, and I am baffled at some of the responses by the fans to me.

Last night one Boston fan called the NY station, he really wants Johan, says it has to happen, and he brought up some good points. Things went right last year. What does Schilling have left? What if Beckett gets hurt again? Daisuke wasn't really worth the money on the field, and we know the track record of Japanese pitchers. I think this is a much better viewpoint, then just 'oh, we won with this last year, we can come back with it'. One game away from going home

Fenway
12-03-2007, 09:30 PM
I agree WFAN and nyyfans.com all think Hughes is the next Cy Young.

For whatever reason Santana is not looked at as Pedro like. Both Boston and NYY only see him twice a year.

Obviously White Sox fans are sick of seeing Santana.



I listen to a lot of NY sports radio, and surprisingly, this is the consensus there too. I think it is evidence of an east-coast bias, as people are coming up with the conclusion Johan is on the decline, past prime, and injury prone, and the hosts doing nothing to correct them. Some bring up, 'uhh, what if Hughes becomes an ace?'. Why would you even wonder when you have a guaranteed ace on the table? If Hughes ever gets near Santana's level, you'll have to pay him a buttload of money too. The offers sound like a joke to me, and I am baffled at some of the responses by the fans to me.

Last night one Boston fan called the NY station, he really wants Johan, says it has to happen, and he brought up some good points. Things went right last year. What does Schilling have left? What if Beckett gets hurt again? Daisuke wasn't really worth the money on the field, and we know the track record of Japanese pitchers. I think this is a much better viewpoint, then just 'oh, we won with this last year, we can come back with it'. One game away from going home

Tragg
12-03-2007, 09:45 PM
The caution would be you are getting Santana for only 1 season.
Boston is obviously a strong contender right now, and keeping their young guys probably assures they will be a contender for a long time, without Santana.
They seem to have a lot of good prospects though (just recalling from when we were trying to send Dye their way), although they may be great at hyping them - a lot of teams are (Braves eg).

ND_Sox_Fan
12-03-2007, 11:10 PM
For what it is worth, according to Jerry Crasnick (ESPN) - two sources have told him tonight that Jacob Ellsbury has dropped agent Joe Urbon and is now represented by Scott Boras.

No doubt Boras will look to get involved here somehow.

ChiSoxFan35
12-04-2007, 12:24 AM
Heyman from SI who has been covering this called in to WFAN, the deadline is nonsense, they're still talking, and he says the big change is the Twins would let the Yankees keep Kennedy, but they want Horn/Jackson from the minor leagues

ChiSoxFan35
12-04-2007, 12:32 AM
Okay, he called back, the Yankees won't agree to Cabrera/Hughes/Jackson/Horn, and the Twins are now going to the Red Sox. Of course, this is all coming second hand from WFAN/Heyman

ND_Sox_Fan
12-04-2007, 12:32 AM
Seems like there is a reporter with a scoop that is on every possible side of this story. Jason Stark is reporting that the Yanks and Twins are still talking, but

there was no indication that they were any closer to a deal for Santana than they were four days ago. In fact, if anything, the momentum seemed to be in the opposite direction. Officials from other clubs said several of the Yankees' baseball personnel at the meetings had begun openly questioning whether they even wanted to make this trade if the Twins said yes. "The more this goes on," said one AL executive, "the less they want to do it."