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TommyJohn
12-02-2007, 10:11 PM
OK, enough with the negativity. Let's now do a thread in which you submit
your choices, position-by-position of the best or greatest performances
by White Sox players in team history. The rules are simply pick players whose
performances for an individual year either were just outstanding and had an
impact on the team that year or even team history. It shouldn't be hard.
Granted, they aren't the Yankees. Heck, they aren't even the Red Sox
(although they are only four World Series titles behind THEM). But the
White Sox have had great players and great performances, so let's see you
come up with them.

(About the negativity comment-I am a part of that too. I don't mean to hold
my nose in the air. I just mean let's inject a positive thread here.)

I'll admit my picks are top-heavy towards modern players, and perhaps
title-winning years, maybe others can furnish players that may be forgotten.

My choices:

C Carlton Fisk 1983
1B Dick Allen 1972
2B Nellie Fox 1959
SS Luke Appling 1936
3B Robin Ventura 1996
LF Minnie Minoso 1951
CF
RF Jermaine Dye 2005
DH Frank Thomas 2000

SP Ed Walsh 1908
SP Wilbur Wood 1971
SP Early Wynn 1959
SP LaMarr Hoyt 1983

RP Hoyt Wilhelm 1964
RP Bobby Thigpen 1990
RP Wilbur Wood 1970
RP

Manager Fielder Jones 1906

Obviously, it's all subjective. I leaned heavily to more recent players and
left many deserving players off. I'm also having a hard time deciding on a
centerfielder. Candidates include Al Simmons (1933), Jim Busby (1951),
Jim Landis (1959), Tommie Agee (1966), Rudy Law (1983), Lance Johnson
(1993), Aaron Rowand (2005). All were great performances or had an
impact on the team. Or should I reward one season of a guy that
I feel is one of the most underrated, forgotten players in White Sox
history, Johnny Mostil?

As for third base, I chose the best season from arguably the best player
at that position in White Sox history. Others may go with Bill Melton in
1970 or 1971. Perfectly all right. Right field could easily have gone to
Richie Zisk for his one season, or to Magglio Ordonez. I went with Dye
for his contributions to the 2005 champs and because the loss of Ordonez
was supposed to be a near death blow to the team. The last reliever position
is also a tough one.

So does anyone else want to chime in?

(By the way, I'm sure we have had a thread on this already, but what the
heck they're fun.)

the1tab
12-02-2007, 10:23 PM
I'm on board w/ ONE DOG in CF.

santo=dorf
12-02-2007, 10:29 PM
Belle in 1998
Maggs in 2002
Thomas in 1993
McDowell in 1993
Foulke in 1999
Dye in 2006
Loaiza in 2003

the1tab
12-02-2007, 10:30 PM
I appreciate the love for Dye, but how can you overlook Albert Belle in 1998? I know the man was a surly SOB, but his .328 avg, 49 HRs, 152 RBI, 399 total bases and 113 runs are across the board better than Dye in 2005 or 2006.

TommyJohn
12-02-2007, 10:34 PM
I appreciate the love for Dye, but how can you overlook Albert Belle in 1998? I know the man was a surly SOB, but his .328 avg, 49 HRs, 152 RBI, 399 total bases and 113 runs are across the board better than Dye in 2005 or 2006.

I'll grant you that, but I'm going strictly by position, and Albert Belle was
a left fielder in 1998, and I chose Dye for right field. To be honest, I
forgot about Belle's monster 1998 season. His being an SOB had nothing
to do with it, I was just locked into the mode of a player who had more
"impact" on White Sox history with one season, hence my choice of Minnie
Minoso. Belle is a great choice, though and I certainly didn't intentionally
overlook him.

the1tab
12-02-2007, 10:40 PM
Any love for the Rock in 1992? Raines put up .380 OBP, 45 SBs (to only 48 Ks) and 102 Rs.

And while I earlier professed admiration for One Dog, the Rock never played on the North Side.

Numbers aside, I will always feel that the best athletes the Sox have ever put on the field were

1) Bo Jackson
2) Frank Thomas
3) Michael Jordan (can we count him? even w/out baseball on the resume)
4) Shoeless Joe Jackson

Frater Perdurabo
12-03-2007, 06:17 AM
All good choices above. But I'd choose Frank Thomas' 1994 season. He batted .353, with a .487 OBP and .729 SLG for a 1.216 OPS - all career highs. He also had 38 homers and 101 RBI in 113 games, on pace for 52-53 and 143 over 160 games, if not for the strike. All those would have been career highs, too. Since he was a DH that year for 13 games, I'd pick that season.

Thomas' definitely deserved the MVP in 2000, but his 1994 season was on pace to be one of the best individual seasons for any player in MLB history.

Great memories! :supernana:

doublem23
12-03-2007, 07:13 AM
Aside from the two less doubles and about 10 extra strikeouts he had, Jermaine's 2006 season was a head and shoulders better than '05 in every offensive category.

duke of dorwood
12-03-2007, 11:12 AM
3B Pete Ward 1964 .282 94 RBI

CF Ken Henderson 1974 .292 95 RBI

nccwsfan
12-03-2007, 12:44 PM
Here are two lists- one for the Old Comiskey era (1910-1990) and one for the New Comiskey/US Cellular era (1991-present)

Old Comiskey
1B Dick Allen 72'
2B Nellie Fox 59'
3B Bill Melton 71'
SS Luke Appling 36'
C Carlton Fisk 83'
OF Richie Zisk 77'
OF Chet Lemon 79'
OF Harold Baines 85'
DH Oscar Gamble 77'

SP Ted Lyons 27'
SP Billy Pierce 56'
SP Early Wynn 59'
SP Joel Horlen 67'
SP Wilbur Wood 72'
SP Lamarr Hoyt 83'
CL Bobby Thigpen 90'

New Comiskey/US Cellular Field
1B Frank Thomas 94'
2B Ray Durham 98'
3B Robin Ventura 96'
SS Jose Valentin 01'
C A.J. Pierzynski 06'
OF Albert Belle 98'
OF Magglio Ordonez 02'
OF Jermaine Dye 06'
DH Jim Thome 06'

SP Jack McDowell 93'
SP Alex Fernandez 93'
SP Esteban Loaiza 03'
SP Jon Garland 05'
SP Mark Buehrle 05'
CL Bobby Jenks 07'

Offensive numbers have become so inflated over the past 20 seasons that it's almost impossible to make comparisons of different eras, therefore the two lists.

For those who were around to watch the White Sox in the 60's, would you keep Horlen 67' in there or go with Gary Peters? It was a toss up either way in my mind.

SoxSpeed22
12-03-2007, 02:12 PM
I'll just use the same rules in santo=dorf's thread for the last 30 years. Second place in parenthesis
C Carlton Fisk 1983 (AJ Pierzynski 2006)
1B Frank Thomas 1994 (was on his way) (Frank Thomas 1993)
2B Ray Durham 1998 (Ray Durham 2000)
SS Ozzie Guillen 1994 (Alan Bannister 1977)
3B Robin Ventura 1995 (Joe Crede 2006)
LF Albert Belle 1998 (Carlos Lee 2004)
CF Rudy Law 1983 (Aaron Rowand 2004)
RF Jermaine Dye 2006 (Magglio Ordonez 2002)
DH Jim Thome 2006 (Frank Thomas 2000 but can't use same person twice)

SP Lamar Hoyt 1983
SP Jack McDowell 1993
SP Esteban Loaiza 2003
SP Alex Fernandez 1993
SP Mark Buehrle 2001

CP Bobby Thigpen 1990
RP Neal Cotts 2005
RP Damaso Marte 2003
RP Bobby Jenks 2007
RP Roberto Hernandez 1993
RP Keith Foulke 2001

Yes, I am aware that I used closers, but counted them as relievers.

PennStater98r
12-03-2007, 05:43 PM
First of all, take a look at the 1920 Sox - if we talking pure statistics. There were three guys that had 200+ hits and five starters with a .300 Avg. It'd be hard to not include Happy, Joe, Eddie and Buck imo. If I were going to build a line-up, rotation and pen, it'd look as follows:

My choices:

Line-up:

1 Nellie Fox (L) 1957 2B (.317/.403/.415) Struckout 14 times in over 700 PA
2 Luke Appling (R) 1936 SS (.388/.474/.508)
3 Frank Thomas (R) 1994 1B (.353/.487/.729)
4 Albert Belle (R) 1998 DH (.328/.399/.655) 100 Extra base hits
5 Joe Jackson (L) 1920 LF (.382/.444/.589)
6 Magglio Ordonez (R) 2001 RF (.305/.382/.533) 25 SB
7 Johnny Mostil (R) 1926 CF (.328/.415/.467) 35 SB
8 Robin Ventura (L) 1996 3B (.287/.368/.520) GG
9 Carlton Fisk (R) 1985 C (.238/.320/.488) 17 SB

Starters

1 Eddie Cicotte (RHP) 1917 (28-12/1.53/150) - 7 Shutouts
2 Ed Walsh (RHP) 1910 (18-20/1.27/258) - 0.82 WHIP in 369 IP
3 Billy Pierce (LHP) 1955 (15-10/1.97/157)
4 Estaban Loaiza (RHP) 2003 (21-9/2.90/207)
5 Wilbur Wood (LHP) 1971 (22-13/1.91/210)

Pen

Long Relief Hoyt Wilhelm (RHP) 1967 (8-3/1.31/76)
Situational Cisco Carlos (RHP) 1967 (2-0/0.86/27)
Situational Damaso Marte (LHP) 2003 (4-2/1.58/87)
Set-up Keith Foulke (RHP) 1999 (3-3/2.22/123)
Closer Bobby Thigpen (RHP) 1990 (4-6/1.83/70) 57 Saves

The Logic:

By no means do I want to forget the play of 2006 Jermaine Dye, 1972 Richie Allen or 1920 Eddie Collins, but the fact of the matter is that I could only choose one position and one line-up spot. I tried to weigh things that go beyond stats that you'd read in any typical box score. For example, why does Nellie Fox make the cut over Eddie Collins? Furthermore, why does 1957 Fox make it over his MVP season in 1959? Well, first of all, Fox had a better year in 1957 than his '59 season. Fox was very well known for his defense and he only struckout 14 times. To me, his 1957 season was nearly a perfect one for a lead-off hitter.

I did kick around Collins for DH, but LF had 1920 'Shoeless' Joe and 1998 Albert Belle staring at me. I could not turn away both of those seasons. There are also a couple of shortstops that would have been better selections from a defensive standpoint, but Appling's 1936 .388 run is just incredible. I think the stick made up for what Luis or Ozzie could have brought with the glove.

What else can you say about Big Hurt's 1994 season? His numbers that year are Ruthian/Williamsian/Bondsian. Once we get to Magglio's 2001 campaign, I tried to weigh the defense he brought along with the additional stolen bases - and that's what knocked Dye out of the running. After all, I did say I wanted to make a line-up. We already had enough sluggers in the middle of the line-up as is. I think this was my toughest choice.

Ventura is a personal favorite. Of all the players to put on a White Sox uniform, Ventura is my personal #1. Sure, Melton seemed to have more power and better numbers than Ventura, but when I looked at them in comparison to one another, they were actually really close. Bring Ventura's D into the picture, and it was really easy for me to pick my 3B - along with grabbing another lefty.

I loved Fisk when he played for the Sox, but when I looked at his numbers, I thought, 'ew!' But then I go back to my childhood and remember the '83, '84 and '85 seasons and how much he was a part of that team. Stats didn't show everything about Fisk. I think I looked long and hard at Schalk and Lollar, but at the end of the day, I wanted that combination of speed and power that 1985 Fisk could bring to the table. Again, we had enough power guys in the line-up up top.

Finally, Centerfield just was selected due to Mostil's numbers. I think I could have considered 2003 Rowand, various Lance Johnson seasons and 1919 or 1920 Happy Felsch, but at the end of the day, Mostil seemed to have the perfect numbers to go with the rest of this team and slip into that 7 spot just right. In fact, if I could have found a catcher with significantly better numbers than 1985 Fisk, I would have thought to put him into the 9 slot.

Why is Eddie Cicotte my ace? Cicotte is the only pitcher in the history of White Sox baseball to start Game One of the World Series twice while wearing a White Sox uniform. He had the experience. He had the leadership (short of the little problem in '19), and he was on his way to the Hall if he'd not been part of the Black Sox scandal. Regardless, the numbers alone in 1917 could make him an ace on any team any time - short of a White Sox club from 1907 to 1912

Speaking of 1907 to 1912, Ed Walsh may be the best player to ever wear a White Sox uniform - relative to his peers. He has the all-time lowest career ERA for a pitcher with enough innings to qualify. He has a season with Forty wins. So why did I select a season with a losing record for him? He threw 369 innings (which was a short amount for him) and held a 0.82 WHIP. The offense failed him that year.

When I started looking for a left-handed pitcher to put into my rotation, I looked at Wilbur Wood first, but knew that I needed to review Pierce. If you were to take his W-L record out of the equation, Piece had the lowest ERA and WHIP in the league. He was 3rd in strikeouts and that was on a third place team (though pythagorean W-L says they should have been 95-59 - bad luck and weaker hitting failed this pitching staff). Wood's 1971 White Sox was a sub-.500 team but - oh how the times have changed. Wood had a 1.91 ERA and still lost 13 games. His peer, Tommy John had a 3.61 ERA and was on pace to lose 20 games at one point.

I saved Loaiza for last. For one year, Estaban had it all come together, and when I look back at that season (the only one on the list that I witnessed first hand), he was just plain dominated for 4/5th of the season. He lost a 1 run game to the last place tigers twice that year, and he was tired by the time he face Minnesota at the end of the season. I still think he put up better numbers all around than Halliday, but the press always does seem to remember what you have done for me lately.

What is there to say about the bullpen? Twenty years ago, there was only one man in the Hall of Fame that spent a significant portion of his career coming out of the bullpen. He's the first guy that I'd call on from this list. Hoyt Wilhelm threw well beyond the years he "should" have, and he dominated in those years out of the bullpen.

Carlos is on here due to a fluke of a season, but it's one of the most impressive 40 IP of any reliever at any time.

Before Foulke was known as the closer with a nasty change-up, he was the best set-up man in baseball. He'd become one of the best closers in the game over the course of the next 5 years - but would frustrate his fans beyond no bounds for a weak two week period - every year.

Thigpen - 57. 'nuff said.

Marte is just the best leftie I could find out of the pen.

Wow - this was fun - I'd love to see what you guys think and offer suggestions as to how this line-up, rotation and bullpen could be better.

TommyJohn
12-03-2007, 07:31 PM
First of all, take a look at the 1920 Sox - if we talking pure statistics. There were three guys that had 200+ hits and five starters with a .300 Avg. It'd be hard to not include Happy, Joe, Eddie and Buck imo. If I were going to build a line-up, rotation and pen, it'd look as follows:

Wow - this was fun - I'd love to see what you guys think and offer suggestions as to how this line-up, rotation and bullpen could be better.

Just cut out the middle part because it was long, but a great post. You came
up with some situations and reasons that I didn't. My choices were pretty
much based on "impact," basically how a player's year affected the franchise
as a whole, or short of that, just the most outstanding individual season
that I felt that position produced.

The biggest example for me was Minnie Minoso in left field for his 1951
season. Sure guys like Ron Kittle and Albert Belle had better years, but
I was thinking in terms of Minoso being the first black player in White Sox
(and Chicago) baseball history in 1951, and he was hugely responsible in
helping to revive a franchise that had been a dead team walking for the
better part of the previous 30 years. That's why he got my nod.

The same goes for Dick Allen's 1972 season at 1st base. His legend continues
to grow with each passing year. While I do feel it is a slight exaggeration to
say Allen was the "savior" of the franchise, what he did in 1972 went a long
way in doing just that. The whole season now reads like something out of
a Hollywood script. Frank Thomas had better seasons statistically, but Allen's
1972 season was more important to the White Sox franchise.

I almost chose Richie Zisk in right field in 1977 for that same reason. In the
end I chose Dye for 2005 for reasons I stated in my first post, even though
statistically he had an even better year in 2006.

Frank Thomas is my favorite Sox player, so I couldn't leave him off. I chose
his DH year in 2000 because it came after two subpar (for him) seasons in
which the Chicago radio and press corps compared him unfavorably to
Sammy Sosa and gleefully consigned him to has-been status. He deserved
to be MVP that year, and I hope the BBWAA is as proud of electing a roided
up FrankenGiambi as they are of building up the legendary "feats" of Sosa
and his partner in crime Mark McGwire.

Of course, if I wanted to choose a "White Sox All-Time All-Star" Team
choosing the best individual performances by year (without the "impact"
criteria I had) my line up would look different.

ode to veeck
12-03-2007, 11:20 PM
Any love for the Rock in 1992? Raines put up .380 OBP, 45 SBs (to only 48 Ks) and 102 Rs.

And while I earlier professed admiration for One Dog, the Rock never played on the North Side.

Numbers aside, I will always feel that the best athletes the Sox have ever put on the field were

1) Bo Jackson
2) Frank Thomas
3) Michael Jordan (can we count him? even w/out baseball on the resume)
4) Shoeless Joe Jackson

don't forget Eddie Collins

ode to veeck
12-03-2007, 11:26 PM
I could take Rich Dotson from '83 just as easily as Hoyt. He was 22-7 with a lower ERA and nearly as many innings. Like today's Sox the early 80s teams were deep in starters.

Save McCuddy's
12-03-2007, 11:40 PM
The Logic:

By no means do I want to forget the play of 2006 Jermaine Dye, 1972 Richie Allen or 1920 Eddie Collins, but the fact of the matter is that I could only choose one position and one line-up spot. I tried to weigh things that go beyond stats that you'd read in any typical box score. For example, why does Nellie Fox make the cut over Eddie Collins? Furthermore, why does 1957 Fox make it over his MVP season in 1959? Well, first of all, Fox had a better year in 1957 than his '59 season. Fox was very well known for his defense and he only struckout 14 times. To me, his 1957 season was nearly a perfect one for a lead-off hitter.



I struggle with your decision to go with Nellie over Eddie Collins. Was 1920 the only year you debated over? His 1915,16,17,19,20,21,22,23,24,25 and 926 seasons are all better than any of Fox's best seasons. Collins was known as an outstanding glove man as well.

I love your passion and your post, but can't think of anything Fox does as well as Eddie Collins.

PennStater98r
12-04-2007, 01:46 AM
I struggle with your decision to go with Nellie over Eddie Collins. Was 1920 the only year you debated over? His 1915,16,17,19,20,21,22,23,24,25 and 926 seasons are all better than any of Fox's best seasons. Collins was known as an outstanding glove man as well.

I love your passion and your post, but can't think of anything Fox does as well as Eddie Collins.

I hear what you're saying about Collins, and quite honestly, he was the second hardest choice for me to leave off of this list. It was hard for me to include Magglio instead of Dye, but both were tough choices. I think it comes down to true lead-off hitters. Nellie just felt like more of a lead-off hitter to me than Collins. I also feel like Nellie did a lot without as much talent around him. Don't get me wrong, Collins could flat out hit, and he was one of the clean guys on the 1919 team - which means a lot. Nellie vs. Eddie just felt a bit gut for me when it came to who should be leading off. I think Eddie was a great guy to slide into the 2 spot.

I also loved that Fox Ks 14 times in 700 AB. How many guys can say they did that (multiple seasons)?

santo=dorf
12-04-2007, 05:37 AM
Nice list Penn State. I think you're one arm short in the bullpen, and I'd go with a 2007 Bobby Jenks or 2005 Cliff Politte or 2005 Neal Cotts.