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View Full Version : Crede being treated like Garland by the Media?


Trav
12-01-2007, 04:51 PM
It seems like everything I read about Crede has him being traded even if it is never backed up by hard evidence. That's how I felt the media treated Garland for the majority of the time he was here. Is Crede eventually going to be dealt? I thought the Hawk was the tell tale sign about how the team felt about a player.

UserNameBlank
12-01-2007, 04:57 PM
Wasn't there some article somewhere that said KW turned down a deal after the '06 season that would have netted us Figgins and Ervin Santana for him? I know that rumor was around a lot. Maybe there was something to it?

The Damon for Crede idea was made up by the MLB Trade Rumors guy. That one got some pub but there wasn't anything to it apparently.

It's well known that the Sox have two third baseman and it's well known which one they want to keep. It's also well known that the Sox don't particularly care for Crede's agent. So, it doesn't matter much what the media is saying because even if they're wrong, we still know KW is shopping him hard.

btrain929
12-01-2007, 05:47 PM
With ARod signed, Lowell signed, and not many realistic suitors for Miguel Cabrera, I'd imagine Joe Crede becomes an intriguing option for some teams out there. Now I know we wouldn't get back a lot in return because the uncertainty of his health, but if we can clear another 5-6 million off the books with someone we won't be resigning after '08 anyways, I'd be ecstatic. I'd love to send Crede and a decent prospect to the Dodgers for Jonathon Broxton, but I doubt they'd wanna part with him. If the Angels fall short on Miguel Cabrera (even though I think they'll get him) then get a trade going involving Crede for Willits. Each team dealing from a position of strength to match another team's need.

Lip Man 1
12-01-2007, 06:00 PM
Trav:

I think the majority of this talk is simply a logical extension of the fact that Scott Boras is Joe's agent.

Plus Kenny himself was quoted directly as saying that "talks didn't go well," when he tried to see if it would be possible to work out an extension last season.

Joe will be moving on, perhaps sooner rather then later but ultimately he'll change addresses after the 2007 season at the latest.

Lip

Trav
12-01-2007, 06:06 PM
I figured that both Guillen and Williams would overlook Crede's agent after seeing how bad it is to have Fields play third. Guys like Joe don't come along everyday. They need to sign him.

JermaineDye05
12-01-2007, 06:09 PM
I figured that both Guillen and Williams would overlook Crede's agent after seeing how bad it is to have Fields play third. Guys like Joe don't come along everyday. They need to sign him.

How bad it is to have Fields play 3rd? where do you want him to play, left? His bat will be a force in the lineup. Yes he had some lapses on the field at 3rd, but that will only get better with time. We saw flashes of good defense from Josh that should get better. As much as I love Crede I think he's gone before the season starts.

oeo
12-01-2007, 06:43 PM
It seems like everything I read about Crede has him being traded even if it is never backed up by hard evidence. That's how I felt the media treated Garland for the majority of the time he was here. Is Crede eventually going to be dealt? I thought the Hawk was the tell tale sign about how the team felt about a player.

The Sox have two 3B. They tried Fields in LF and it didn't work, so one of the two has to go. It's most definitely going to be the cheaper of the two options, so Crede will eventually be shown the door, unless Fields magically finds a new position.

Wasn't there some article somewhere that said KW turned down a deal after the '06 season that would have netted us Figgins and Ervin Santana for him? I know that rumor was around a lot. Maybe there was something to it?

There was a rumor at the beginning of 2007 (I believe that the LA commentators were talking about it during an Angels game) that had a package of Figgins and Shields coming over for Crede and somebody else (don't remember who). At the time, Figgins was injured, so it didn't look as intriguing. In hindsight, that would have been a great deal for us.

I figured that both Guillen and Williams would overlook Crede's agent after seeing how bad it is to have Fields play third. Guys like Joe don't come along everyday. They need to sign him.

Fields is not that bad at third, and he's still getting better.

JB98
12-01-2007, 07:36 PM
I figured that both Guillen and Williams would overlook Crede's agent after seeing how bad it is to have Fields play third. Guys like Joe don't come along everyday. They need to sign him.

We don't know if Joe will ever be the same after the back injury. He's a risk. Fields is younger, cheaper and healthier. Hopefully, he'll improve defensively.

TDog
12-01-2007, 07:42 PM
I figured that both Guillen and Williams would overlook Crede's agent after seeing how bad it is to have Fields play third. Guys like Joe don't come along everyday. They need to sign him.

I've never seen Fields play third, but I'm guessing a lot of young third basemen would look like butchers to fans used to seeing an experienced Crede at the hot corner.

It doesn't make sense that the Sox have been planning to get rid of Crede while they were playing Fields in left with Crede out for the season. It could be that the organization is of a different mind now, but if Fields were planned as a future third baseman, he would have been getting experience at third base.

sullythered
12-01-2007, 09:27 PM
I think Josh is gonna be a masher, but he didn't look much worse in left than he did at third to me. He's an athlete, and I don't see any reason why he couldn't improve in left to the point where he could play there consistently. I guarantee he could get better there than Caballo ever did(also a former third baseman).

oeo
12-01-2007, 10:24 PM
I think Josh is gonna be a masher, but he didn't look much worse in left than he did at third to me. He's an athlete, and I don't see any reason why he couldn't improve in left to the point where he could play there consistently. I guarantee he could get better there than Caballo ever did(also a former third baseman).

You guys have got to be kidding me. Are you sure you watched him play 3B and LF? He was a butcher in LF, and below average at 3B...although he could still make some great plays occasionally. And he improved at 3B as the year went on...he will get better there.

Why does everyone think Fields is Andy Gonzalez at third? :?: He has a cannon for an arm, that is very accurate. He's very good at charging the ball; he makes the routine plays (at least most of the time). He showed better range as the season went on, as well as not making the same mistakes over and over again. Maybe he won't be Joe Crede at third, but I think he'll be very solid to above average.

WhiteSox5187
12-01-2007, 11:20 PM
You guys have got to be kidding me. Are you sure you watched him play 3B and LF? He was a butcher in LF, and below average at 3B...although he could still make some great plays occasionally. And he improved at 3B as the year went on...he will get better there.

Why does everyone think Fields is Andy Gonzalez at third? :?: He has a cannon for an arm, that is very accurate. He's very good at charging the ball; he makes the routine plays (at least most of the time). He showed better range as the season went on, as well as not making the same mistakes over and over again. Maybe he won't be Joe Crede at third, but I think he'll be very solid to above average.
I think we have been so spoiled by Crede's D over the years. We spent years waiting for his bat to come around and finally it does and then he goes down to injury and his agent isn't going to make a deal with us.

From a strictly buisness and baseball standpoint, the answer is simple, we go with Fields. His D will come around and he has shown what he can do with a bat. Remember, when Konerko first came over he was a butcher at first and now I think he's one of the better defensive first basemen in the AL. Same could very well happen with Fields, it'd be the opposite of what happened with Crede where we waited and waited for him to be a threat offensively.

As a fan this is a rather difficult descion cuz I love Crede and he will be missed (offensively and defensively). He was also such a key component of the '05 team especially in the stretch run (but remember how close he came to losign his job in the first half?). It's too bad, but this game is a buisness.

Domeshot17
12-01-2007, 11:52 PM
I think what you have to take into consideration too is Fields potential.

How many runs a year would you say Crede saves VS Fields, 20? Would that be a fair assesment? ITs a tough stat to judge but lets say 17 times a year Crede makes a play Fields can't with the glove that saves a few runs.

Crede offensively what we can we expect 265-24-85 sound fair? Fields as a rookie projected to 33-95 in a full season of at bats. So lets say Fields max is a 270-40-115 rbi guy. Now lets say Fields is also going to score more runs because hes on base more and has good first to 3rd speed. He may not steal many bases but overall hes a pretty good base runner with good instincts and 2 base speed.

I dont think in the big picture we take a step back with Fields at 3rd. That said we need a fantastic defensive SS to play alongside him, and with Cabrera, we have one of the best in the game!

I love Joe Crede. I can let Uribe go easy from 2005, he fell out of favor, but Crede is tough. As a fan I wish he could be here his entire career. But I also think Crede is not as loyal as he led on. I know coming off surgery hes looking for protection, but you know he really shot off his mouth years ago saying he would fire Boras if he prevented a long term deal from getting done (well heavily implying that) and now Boras is holding up a deal and Crede won't meet to have a 1 on 1 with Kenny.

WhiteSox5187
12-02-2007, 12:20 AM
I think what you have to take into consideration too is Fields potential.

How many runs a year would you say Crede saves VS Fields, 20? Would that be a fair assesment? ITs a tough stat to judge but lets say 17 times a year Crede makes a play Fields can't with the glove that saves a few runs.

Crede offensively what we can we expect 265-24-85 sound fair? Fields as a rookie projected to 33-95 in a full season of at bats. So lets say Fields max is a 270-40-115 rbi guy. Now lets say Fields is also going to score more runs because hes on base more and has good first to 3rd speed. He may not steal many bases but overall hes a pretty good base runner with good instincts and 2 base speed.

I dont think in the big picture we take a step back with Fields at 3rd. That said we need a fantastic defensive SS to play alongside him, and with Cabrera, we have one of the best in the game!

I love Joe Crede. I can let Uribe go easy from 2005, he fell out of favor, but Crede is tough. As a fan I wish he could be here his entire career. But I also think Crede is not as loyal as he led on. I know coming off surgery hes looking for protection, but you know he really shot off his mouth years ago saying he would fire Boras if he prevented a long term deal from getting done (well heavily implying that) and now Boras is holding up a deal and Crede won't meet to have a 1 on 1 with Kenny.
I agree with the Boras thing, but to be fair to Joe, I don't think Kenny (or any other GMs) are dying to set up a deal with a guy who might not be able to play again. The whole .265 thing might be generous seeing as how the guy hasn't played an inning since May and apparently hasn't been healthy since '06. It would be a big risk to offer him a long term deal right now (ESPECIALLY with Fields ready in the wings). I think he starts out with the Sox in ST and then if I'm Kenny I'd start talking to Joe (or Boras, whoever) about a potential long term deal while listening to offers for Crede or Fields. If I think I can get something to done with Crede long term and have a nice offer for Fields, I'd do it. But we'll see.

Trav
12-02-2007, 02:02 AM
Crede is a gold glove caliber 3B with a solid bat. Fields is a below average 3B with the potential for a great bat, IMO. I like Crede's combo at $8 mil a year (I'm guessing, I have no idea what he is asking or is being offered) over Fields league minimum or whatever he is making. True, his back is an issue but what if it isn't in the long run? Crede has always played well defensively and that made up for his bat early on. Fields doesn't have that going for him.

Trav
12-02-2007, 02:04 AM
I think what you have to take into consideration too is Fields potential.

How many runs a year would you say Crede saves VS Fields, 20? Would that be a fair assesment? ITs a tough stat to judge but lets say 17 times a year Crede makes a play Fields can't with the glove that saves a few runs.

Crede offensively what we can we expect 265-24-85 sound fair? Fields as a rookie projected to 33-95 in a full season of at bats. So lets say Fields max is a 270-40-115 rbi guy. Now lets say Fields is also going to score more runs because hes on base more and has good first to 3rd speed. He may not steal many bases but overall hes a pretty good base runner with good instincts and 2 base speed.

I dont think in the big picture we take a step back with Fields at 3rd. That said we need a fantastic defensive SS to play alongside him, and with Cabrera, we have one of the best in the game!

I love Joe Crede. I can let Uribe go easy from 2005, he fell out of favor, but Crede is tough. As a fan I wish he could be here his entire career. But I also think Crede is not as loyal as he led on. I know coming off surgery hes looking for protection, but you know he really shot off his mouth years ago saying he would fire Boras if he prevented a long term deal from getting done (well heavily implying that) and now Boras is holding up a deal and Crede won't meet to have a 1 on 1 with Kenny.


Where did you read that Boras is holding up a deal and Crede won't talk to Williams?

Domeshot17
12-02-2007, 02:23 AM
Where did you read that Boras is holding up a deal and Crede won't talk to Williams?

Im too tired to look it up, but if you look back at the crede discussion from around a week ago, it was said I think in an article on whitesox.com that Kenny was not encouraged by talks with Boras and Crede had rebuffed any contract talks without Boras present Ill do a quick search


Edit from the Herald
However, a major-league exec with knowledge of the situation said Thursday he believes there's a 95 percent chance Crede will be dealt before Opening Day, as the Sox appear done trying to get Crede's agent, Scott Boras, to talk about a deal beyond 2008 -- or get Crede to talk to them on his own.


http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=78668

ilsox7
12-02-2007, 02:33 AM
Where did you read that Boras is holding up a deal and Crede won't talk to Williams?

My recollection was that neither Crede nor the Sox wanted to negotiate anything beyond a 1 year deal.

sullythered
12-02-2007, 03:04 AM
My recollection was that neither Crede nor the Sox wanted to negotiate anything beyond a 1 year deal.
Okay, fine with me. One year deal it is. We are trying to win now right? That is Kenny's plan, correct? Joe is an awesome third baseman. Flat-out great. He can hit, too. Good defense and pitching wins, not meh defense and big gawdy power numbers. I can't freakin' believe so many people have forgotten 2000-2004 already.

Oh yeah, Joe gets big huge important hits in big huge important situations. And please don't pull up that stupid late and close stat. It is silly. We all have seen Joe Crede get gigantic hits in super pressure situations. Way more than almost anybody.

gogosox16
12-02-2007, 03:30 AM
Okay, fine with me. One year deal it is. We are trying to win now right? That is Kenny's plan, correct? Joe is an awesome third baseman. Flat-out great. He can hit, too. Good defense and pitching wins, not meh defense and big gawdy power numbers. I can't freakin' believe so many people have forgotten 2000-2004 already.

Oh yeah, Joe gets big huge important hits in big huge important situations. And please don't pull up that stupid late and close stat. It is silly. We all have seen Joe Crede get gigantic hits in super pressure situations. Way more than almost anybody.
You never know since his surgery...And he really didnt start hitting till a few years back and Fields came up and has shown right away that he is ready and can produce big in the majors

WhiteSox5187
12-02-2007, 03:35 AM
Crede is a gold glove caliber 3B with a solid bat. Fields is a below average 3B with the potential for a great bat, IMO. I like Crede's combo at $8 mil a year (I'm guessing, I have no idea what he is asking or is being offered) over Fields league minimum or whatever he is making. True, his back is an issue but what if it isn't in the long run? Crede has always played well defensively and that made up for his bat early on. Fields doesn't have that going for him.
And if it is? That's eight million dollars spent that we're not getting back. Look, I love Crede too, but I totally understand this wait and see approach and at the same time I understand why Joe would be anxious to get a multi-year deal done. The fact of the matter is, we just don't know what we're going to get out of Joe right now. We might get the 2006 caliber Crede or he might have lost several steps in the field and be hitting like the 2004 era Joe. We're not going to find out until ST (at the earliest, if then) and I don't think any other GM is going to want to gamble big on him either. I think he's on the OD roster.

sullythered
12-02-2007, 03:49 AM
You never know since his surgery...And he really didnt start hitting till a few years back and Fields came up and has shown right away that he is ready and can produce big in the majors
That's true, we don't know yet. And nobody else does either. Trading Joe now will give us very little in return. Waiting is the only smart thing to do.

Also, I like Josh, I really do, but he has shown he can hit homers on a non-competitive team. That is really all. I do think he has potential to drive in a lot of runs, but he hasn't really proven anything yet. And even if he does start smashing the ball consistently, I doubt if he'll ever be the clutch performer that Joe is, only because so few are. And the defense part isn't even worth comparing.

Grzegorz
12-02-2007, 05:01 AM
How bad it is to have Fields play 3rd? where do you want him to play, left? His bat will be a force in the lineup. Yes he had some lapses on the field at 3rd, but that will only get better with time. We saw flashes of good defense from Josh that should get better. As much as I love Crede I think he's gone before the season starts.

Fields was a first year player that showed some promise. He's far from being "can't miss".

Does he need to play? Yes, does he have a position to play? Not really...

By the way, for all the harping that goes on about players not playing winter ball, why is it that Fields escapes such harping?

This guy, more than anyone, needs the experience that winter ball provides.

btrain929
12-02-2007, 05:21 AM
I think I heard in a KW interview that he said Fields' legs were really tired by the end of the year and he wanted to give him a break since this was by far the longest baseball season of his career. Hopefully it won't stop him from at least taking a million groundballs in the offseason.

Grzegorz
12-02-2007, 05:52 AM
If he's injured, then he misses the two week instructional series to recover.

I am not sure that two weeks of instructional league is enough to make an poor defensive player into an adequate defensive player.

Look, there's a difference between tired legs and injured legs. If he's injured, heal. If his legs are tired too bad.

He a young kid so he should have great recuperative ability. So rest those two weeks and THEN get out there and play somewhere to improve yourself defensively.

Frontman
12-02-2007, 06:58 AM
We don't know if Joe will ever be the same after the back injury. He's a risk. Fields is younger, cheaper and healthier. Hopefully, he'll improve defensively.

Joe last season had some errors/poor play at 3rd, and I contributed that to his bad back. There's no reason to believe that now that Crede had the surgery, that he'll automatically return to be lights out at 3rd. I hope he can be solid, as we'll probably need him to start. But if they move Joe, its not going to be the end of the world.

FarWestChicago
12-02-2007, 07:18 AM
By the way, for all the harping that goes on about players not playing winter ball, why is it that Fields escapes such harping?If he's doing what he's been asked to do by his employers, I have no problem with that. If he's not, it's an issue.

Tragg
12-02-2007, 08:47 AM
You don't just give up a young hitter like Fields. Better get something real good in trade.
I'd try him at 1st.
Even though he's blocked at 1st, he won't be forever.
This year, I'm looking forward to the depth that he will offer this club. Uribe and Fields on the bench - pretty solid. Now if we could only be solid in the starting 8.

Trav
12-02-2007, 01:41 PM
Im too tired to look it up, but if you look back at the crede discussion from around a week ago, it was said I think in an article on whitesox.com that Kenny was not encouraged by talks with Boras and Crede had rebuffed any contract talks without Boras present Ill do a quick search


Edit from the Herald

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=78668

Thanks for looking that up. It's interesting that Crede won't talk to them, but I still think it is a bad decision to give up on him before you see how his back is. And if he is part of any deal wouldn't he have to go through a physical? Obviously a physical isn't the same as playing third base for a season, but you would think that if feels healthy enough to start ST KW would want to wait until he proves he is healthy (initially) before trading him during the season?