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Fenway
12-01-2007, 12:51 AM
Cashman has offered Phillip Hughes to the Twins along with Melky and another prospect says SI.com and ESPN.com

So have the Red Sox accomplished what they wanted by driving the price up for NYY?

Twins want Elsbury..that will not happen unless Theo has lost his mind. Buchholz? This kid could be an ace....

We all pawns in the rumor game. In retrospect looks like the Twins did the leaking to scare NYY.

Besides I don't care if it a cloned Cy Young..125M for 5y for a pitcher is NUTS

oeo
12-01-2007, 12:53 AM
Cashman has offered Phillip Hughes to the Twins along with Melky and another prospect says SI.com and ESPN.com

So have the Red Sox accomplished what they wanted by driving the price up for NYY?

Uh...no, because the Red Sox didn't even offer anything worthwhile. The Yankees probably just laughed at that rumor.

If rumors were flying that the Red Sox had Ellsbury or Buchholz on the table, then that would be effectively driving the price up. Coco Crisp and a few middle-tier prospects? Not so much.

Fenway
12-01-2007, 01:05 AM
Uh...no, because the Red Sox didn't even offer anything worthwhile. The Yankees probably just laughed at that rumor.

If rumors were flying that the Red Sox had Ellsbury or Buchholz on the table, then that would be effectively driving the price up. Coco Crisp and a few middle-tier prospects? Not so much.

Cashman didn't want to give Hughes up.....posters on nyyfans.com are pleading DON'T DO IT

http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=108045&page=84

Pete Abraham a Yanks beat writer from Horsechester is as tuned in as any NY writer

he writes
A question for a different day is whether this show is being run by Hank Steinbrenner or Brian Cashman.


For the better part of two years, Cashman has been working to build an organization that would avoid just the kind of move the Yankees are about to make. Cashman succeeded in building a player development powerhouse. But just when it looked like the Yankees were going to change, Hughes could be on the way out. And while Joba Chamberlain became a cult hero, a lot of people believe Hughes is still a better prospect and has a better makeup for New York.


And do not underestimate the loss of Melky Cabrera, another player the organizational guys were proud of developing. How many times did we hear Torre last year how much the team needed his energy? You have to give up talent to get talent and the Yankees will be giving up a lot.


http://yankees.lhblogs.com/

ksimpson14
12-01-2007, 01:11 AM
We all pawns in the rumor game. In retrospect looks like the Twins did the leaking to scare NYY.

No doubt, I was saying this these past days, but I don't want to gloat about it because it's too obvious, NY knows too.

Hughes? Please, you have to do this in a second, and money doesn't matter to either team so who cares about the contract

JermaineDye05
12-01-2007, 01:16 AM
Twins want Elsbury..that will not happen unless Theo has lost his mind. Buchholz? This kid could be an ace....



True he COULD be an ace, he also could end up being a bust (highly doubt it, but remember all the high hopes for Floyd). The fact of the matter is Santana is an ace.

Trav
12-01-2007, 01:17 AM
No doubt, I was saying this these past days, but I don't want to gloat about it because it's too obvious, NY knows too.

Hughes? Please, you have to do this in a second, and money doesn't matter to either team so who cares about the contract

I don't think George likes paying a luxury tax when he isn't winning rings.

The Hank Vs. Brian angle is an interesting one, but when the games best pitcher is available (and throws a change up for a strike out pitch, not a slider or something hard on the elbow) you scratch any "prospect" plans and try and get him.

Domeshot17
12-01-2007, 01:57 AM
Don't get it, the Twins and Red Sox floated a rumor about Santana for 1 crappy player two B/B+ specs and one middle of the rotation starter for Santana to drive UP the yanks offer.

The Yanks are the one who got this right. Santana is the best pitcher of this century. He is 28 and better than anyone we have seen in the last 20 years at this age. The only guy you can compare to him is Pedro. In their first 7 years (and they spent their first 2 years much the same) they are very similiar. Johan won more games with an era of 3.22, Pedro had more Ks with an era of just about 3. Pedro struck out and walked more hitters.

This isn't a beckett or sabathia or lackey or peavy or a guy we can say is one of the best in baseball. This isn't a guy who is in a class of 10-12 other ELITE number 1 starters. This is the damn valedictorian. He is in the class by himself. He is the most dominating pitcher in the game hands down. The way Beckett got hot in the playoffs and has that nice little run is the type of run Santana goes on for half a season.

The funny thing is, so many of these can't miss prospects do. Will Bucholtz be an ace? maybe. He has just as much chance to be Bud Smith and that unhittable stuff vanishes. Will Elsbury be the next Johnny Damon or Ben Grieve? Will Hughes be Mussina or Macdonald?

But We know what Johan will be. The same thing he has been year in and year out for 5 years. The best pitcher in the game. Is he worth 7 years 150 mil? Maybe-maybe not. But if he is not, NO ONE IS.

Fenway
12-01-2007, 02:22 AM
Of course we are making the assumption that Theo is going to fold.

It will now come down to does Boston feel comfortable with Santana going to NY. Very little separates these 2 teams and both know how important winning the division is.

We don't know how to read Hank yet either. After saying he was glad A-rod was gone because "he didn't want to be a Yankee" he then wets himself when Alex comes crawling back. He appears to be like his Dad in wanting to make the big splash.

What if Boston puts Buchholz out there?

This will be fascinating to watch

and then the Dodgers get him :tongue:

TheVulture
12-01-2007, 02:35 AM
We all pawns in the rumor game....
Besides I don't care if it a cloned Cy Young....

Wow, I almost thought you'd make it through an entire post with a verb for each and every sentence! Oh, well.

ksimpson14
12-01-2007, 03:24 AM
I am surprised how many NY sports radio callers are against it. They look at postseason numbers and record against some top teams. They also worry about who would play CF. Damon sucks there, even more money for a FA?

Some are just being dumb though, thinking last year was a trend about being on the decline, or that he's injury prone :\ . Maybe some are just confusing him with Randy Johnson

WhiteSox5187
12-01-2007, 03:45 AM
Don't get it, the Twins and Red Sox floated a rumor about Santana for 1 crappy player two B/B+ specs and one middle of the rotation starter for Santana to drive UP the yanks offer.

The Yanks are the one who got this right. Santana is the best pitcher of this century. He is 28 and better than anyone we have seen in the last 20 years at this age. The only guy you can compare to him is Pedro. In their first 7 years (and they spent their first 2 years much the same) they are very similiar. Johan won more games with an era of 3.22, Pedro had more Ks with an era of just about 3. Pedro struck out and walked more hitters.

This isn't a beckett or sabathia or lackey or peavy or a guy we can say is one of the best in baseball. This isn't a guy who is in a class of 10-12 other ELITE number 1 starters. This is the damn valedictorian. He is in the class by himself. He is the most dominating pitcher in the game hands down. The way Beckett got hot in the playoffs and has that nice little run is the type of run Santana goes on for half a season.

The funny thing is, so many of these can't miss prospects do. Will Bucholtz be an ace? maybe. He has just as much chance to be Bud Smith and that unhittable stuff vanishes. Will Elsbury be the next Johnny Damon or Ben Grieve? Will Hughes be Mussina or Macdonald?

But We know what Johan will be. The same thing he has been year in and year out for 5 years. The best pitcher in the game. Is he worth 7 years 150 mil? Maybe-maybe not. But if he is not, NO ONE IS.
I was about to say "Well what about guys like Sandy Kofax or Christy Matthewson?" and then realized, it is no longer the twentieth century.:redneck

If I were Cashman, I'd do that trade in a heartbeat, if I were Theo I'd offer either Ellsbury or whoever, a rotation of Santana/Beckett/DiceK/Wakefield/Schilling is awfully hard to beat.

dickallen15
12-01-2007, 08:34 AM
Cashman has offered Phillip Hughes to the Twins along with Melky and another prospect says SI.com and ESPN.com

So have the Red Sox accomplished what they wanted by driving the price up for NYY?

Twins want Elsbury..that will not happen unless Theo has lost his mind. Buchholz? This kid could be an ace....

We all pawns in the rumor game. In retrospect looks like the Twins did the leaking to scare NYY.

Besides I don't care if it a cloned Cy Young..125M for 5y for a pitcher is NUTS
I still don't understand the fascination with Ellsbury. I mean he looks like he will be pretty good, but if not including him in a trade means no Santana and he goes to the Yankees and signs a long term contract, he better be HOF- like.

Fenway
12-01-2007, 08:42 AM
I still don't understand the fascination with Ellsbury. I mean he looks like he will be pretty good, but if not including him in a trade means no Santana and he goes to the Yankees and signs a long term contract, he better be HOF- like.

Ellsbury will be the favorite to be ROY in 2008. He just looks like a natural and has HoF potential.

Theo knows how Lou Gorman was remembered after trading Jeff Bagwell to Houston :rolleyes:

dickallen15
12-01-2007, 08:49 AM
Ellsbury will be the favorite to be ROY in 2008. He just looks like a natural and has HoF potential.

Theo knows how Lou Gorman was remembered after trading Jeff Bagwell to Houston :rolleyes:
But he didn't get a multiple Cy Young award winner in the prime of his career back when he dealt Bagwell. He got an old reliever. The other motivation for these 2 teams to get him is if they don't the other one probably will. Ellsbury looks like a high OBP guy who can run with not much power. He looks like he will be very good, but there's always a chance he's Jeremy Reed, Theo did unload Hanley Ramirez who looks like a superstar, but Beckett turned out to be OK, and the other guy, the one they needed to take just for the contract, he was alright too.

ma-gaga
12-01-2007, 09:48 AM
Ellsbury is a classic "sell hi" candidate. I understand the hesitation to deal him, Boston needs the youth to supplement the payroll talent, and he looks like he's destined for greatness.

But this is Johan. Greatness personified.

:cool:

Paulwny
12-01-2007, 10:44 AM
True he COULD be an ace, he also could end up being a bust (highly doubt it, but remember all the high hopes for Floyd). The fact of the matter is Santana is an ace.


Agree, trading a "maybe" for the best pitcher in mlb, a no-brainer.

Fenway
12-01-2007, 10:56 AM
Agree, trading a "maybe" for the best pitcher in mlb, a no-brainer.

Theo ponders his next move
http://www.gonemovies.com/WWW/MyWebFilms/Drama/WizardTinManClose.jpg

BadBobbyJenks
12-01-2007, 12:51 PM
Agree, trading a "maybe" for the best pitcher in mlb, a no-brainer.


Bucholz is not a maybe, he is a sure thing.

Hughes is a maybe, thats why the yanks would be crazy not to do this trade.

ilsox7
12-01-2007, 12:56 PM
Bucholz is not a maybe, he is a sure thing.



There is no such thing as a sure thing. Bucholz is close, but no one is until they prove it over time.

dickallen15
12-01-2007, 01:01 PM
Ellsbury is a classic "sell hi" candidate. I understand the hesitation to deal him, Boston needs the youth to supplement the payroll talent, and he looks like he's destined for greatness.

But this is Johan. Greatness personified.

:cool:
They traded Hanley Ramirez away, he's better than Ellsbury will ever be, and nobody in Boston is crying about it. If Ellsbury is the reason you don't have a Beckett/Santana combo in Boston, Theo should be fired. How would you like facing those 2 in a playoff series a couple of times and what are your chances of winning?

oeo
12-01-2007, 01:04 PM
Cashman didn't want to give Hughes up.....posters on nyyfans.com are pleading DON'T DO IT

What's your point, Fenway?

Cashman isn't involving Hughes because the Red Sox had some lowball offer, but because it's going to take that kind of top notch talent to get a top notch major league pitcher (the best in the game). Cashman not wanting to get rid of Hughes, is like the Red Sox not wanting to get rid of Ellsbury or Buchholz. They may not want to do it, but they have to if they really want to acquire the best pitcher in the game.

So in other words, the Red Sox haven't 'accomplished' anything. That crappy deal that was rumored to be close wasn't scaring anyone.

Domeshot17
12-01-2007, 01:10 PM
Ellsbury will be the favorite to be ROY in 2008. He just looks like a natural and has HoF potential.



Overstatement of the year? He looks good, but lets let him have a rookie season before we use his name and hall of fame in any kind of connection.

oeo
12-01-2007, 01:11 PM
Overstatement of the year? He looks good, but lets let him have a rookie season before we use his name and hall of fame in any kind of connection.

You obviously don't know who you're talking to. This is the same guy that said Josh Beckett was the best pitcher in the game (when in reality he's probably not even in the Top 10), and also thinks that crappy rumored deal is more than enough to acquire one of the best pitchers in awhile.

JermaineDye05
12-01-2007, 01:24 PM
Bucholz is not a maybe, he is a sure thing.

Hughes is a maybe, thats why the yanks would be crazy not to do this trade.

How is Buchholz a sure thing and not Hughes? Just because he threw a no-hitter against the Orioles?

Clay Buchholz minor league stats:

19-10

2.48 ERA

356/77 SO/BB

285.2 IP

Phil Hughes minor league stats:

25-8

2.03 ERA

311/66 SO/BB

275 IP

So how is Buchholz a sure thing and not Hughes? I think people forget that Hughes almost no-hit the Rangers. Neither of them are a sure thing. They're both about the same right now, with Hughes having a little more experience. Looking at the minor league stats Hughes has a slight edge. Buchholz only had 3 starts, 1 of them a no-hitter.

chaerulez
12-01-2007, 01:31 PM
They traded Hanley Ramirez away, he's better than Ellsbury will ever be, and nobody in Boston is crying about it. If Ellsbury is the reason you don't have a Beckett/Santana combo in Boston, Theo should be fired. How would you like facing those 2 in a playoff series a couple of times and what are your chances of winning?

I agree. Hanley Ramirez is one of the top 5 players in the game. I would say he's a better version of Jose Reyes, but no one knows that because one plays in New York while the other tolls in obsecurity in Florida. It could be argued because of the position Ramirez plays, he is more valuable than A-Rod or Pujlos. Ellsbury can come close to Ramriez, if he develops his power. But your point is well made, Boston doesn't seem to be upset that they made that trade. I think Santana wins more games for them than Ellsbury does in the next five years anyway.

I don't understand the Twins position here though. They pretty much hold the cards here. Santana's value is diminshed because he is almost a free agent and demanding an extenstion to who gets him. So in that sense, the A's might have a better trading chip in Dan Haren. I wouldn't accept a deal without Joba from the Yanks or a deal without either Ellsbury or Bucholz from the Red Sox. Because the way I see it, a dark horse team like the Dodgers can easily step in and offer Matt Kemp or one of their many stud pitching prospects which would be better than the crap offer the Red Sox are offering and on par with Hughes. Even the Giants have said they are willing to part with Tim Linceum and again, that's a better offer than anything by the Red Sox and on par with Hughes. Granted the market might be limited by who wants to give Santana the money, but I'm sure there are several teams looking at themselves and saying we can match these offers and we can make a big splash by landing the best pitcher in baseball.

The Immigrant
12-01-2007, 01:32 PM
There is no such thing as a sure thing. Bucholz is close, but no one is until they prove it over time.

Exactly. After the 2003 season, Mark Prior was more of a "sure thing" than either Bucholtz or Hughes is now.

chaerulez
12-01-2007, 01:34 PM
How is Buchholz a sure thing and not Hughes? Just because he threw a no-hitter against the Orioles?

Clay Buchholz minor league stats:

19-10

2.48 ERA

356/77 SO/BB

285.2 IP

Phil Hughes minor league stats:

25-8

2.03 ERA

311/66 SO/BB

275 IP

So how is Buchholz a sure thing and not Hughes? I think people forget that Hughes almost no-hit the Rangers. Neither of them are a sure thing. They're both about the same right now, with Hughes having a little more experience. Looking at the minor league stats Hughes has a slight edge. Buchholz only had 3 starts, 1 of them a no-hitter.

With young pitching prospects there is no such thing as a sure thing. See Mark Prior. In 2002-2003 people were touting him as a sure fire first ballot hall of famer. I would say both pitchers have a very high ceiling, but you never know. Hughes was on the DL last year and Buchholz had to be shut down.

BadBobbyJenks
12-01-2007, 01:50 PM
How is Buchholz a sure thing and not Hughes? Just because he threw a no-hitter against the Orioles?

Clay Buchholz minor league stats:

19-10

2.48 ERA

356/77 SO/BB

285.2 IP

Phil Hughes minor league stats:

25-8

2.03 ERA

311/66 SO/BB

275 IP

So how is Buchholz a sure thing and not Hughes? I think people forget that Hughes almost no-hit the Rangers. Neither of them are a sure thing. They're both about the same right now, with Hughes having a little more experience. Looking at the minor league stats Hughes has a slight edge. Buchholz only had 3 starts, 1 of them a no-hitter.
All it took for me is one start and you could see it in bucholz. I realize they put up similar numbers, but Hughes was up and down his rookie year. There are sure thing prospects and there is no doubt bucholz in my mind and Boston's mind as he wont even be discussed in a trade for the best pitcher on the planet.

With young pitching prospects there is no such thing as a sure thing. See Mark Prior. In 2002-2003 people were touting him as a sure fire first ballot hall of famer. I would say both pitchers have a very high ceiling, but you never know. Hughes was on the DL last year and Buchholz had to be shut down.
Injuries derailed prior not talent. I think if Prior was healthy he was a sure thing too.

Fenway
12-01-2007, 03:15 PM
Andy Marte was considered a can not miss

he missed

The San Jose Mercury News believes Andy Marte is a "strong possibility" to join the Giants as a candidate to start at third.

Marte, who is out of options, is believed to be available in trade talks. He's the kind of youngster the Giants should be looking to gamble on in a year in which they'll have little chance of contending.


Now we know why both the Braves and Red Sox unloaded him

Brian26
12-01-2007, 04:02 PM
Now we know why both the Braves and Red Sox unloaded him

The Red Sox never make a bad trade. When you're getting a bonafide megastud pitcher like Larry Anderson in return, it only makes sense. :rolleyes:

oeo
12-01-2007, 04:10 PM
Now we know why both the Braves and Red Sox unloaded him

I'll tell you why the Red Sox 'unloaded' him...because they love to overpay. I'd put money on them not knowing he would be a bust. If they knew it, they never would have acquired him in the first place...:dunno:

The Braves, OTOH, I'd believe got rid of him when his value was highest, because they do it all the time.

jabrch
12-01-2007, 04:41 PM
I can't imagine that the Twins don't just keep playing these two against eachother to sweeten the pot.

There's no way they'd take that crap that the Red Sox first offered. No freaking way.

soxfanreggie
12-01-2007, 06:00 PM
If it's not about the money, I don't see why they shouldn't get him. Yes, the talent is very young and has the potential to be great, but they can acquire someone, under LT contract, that could be the #1 pitcher in the game for quite some time and have an offense that is much better behind him. With either of these teams, he has the potential to win 20-25 games a year if he stays healthy. The young talent you're giving up has the potential to be amazing, but is it a sure thing? If the talent fizzles and Johan wins 20+ games a year for the next 5 years and a few more CY plaques, what are you going to look like? It could easily go either way.

Sockinchisox
12-01-2007, 10:17 PM
The Red Sox have apparently upped their offer for Santana, according to Olney.

Paulwny
12-02-2007, 11:36 AM
Twins tell Ny and Boston, they want more. Who'll blink first?

From thr NY Daily News:

apparently what they want is another top-tier prospect from the Yankees, either pitcher Alan Horne or outfielder Austin Jackson, to go along with Hughes and center fielder Melky Cabrera.
The Yankees aren't willing to give up a player of that level, at least for now, and were under the impression that including Hughes in the deal would make the third player a second-tier prospect.
Sources say the Twins are taking a similar stance with the Red Sox, insisting they add either pitcher Clay Buchholz or center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury to a package that features lefthander Jon Lester.
"They are adamant about not giving up Santana for a package they're not happy with," said one person with knowledge of the Twins' position. "They have high demands and they won't compromise them to just to make a deal."

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/12/02/2007-12-02_twins_not_wowed_by_phil_hughes_package_w.html

MrX
12-02-2007, 03:00 PM
The Red Sox have apparently upped their offer for Santana, according to Olney.
They've added Ellsbury and removed Lester from the deal

JermaineDye05
12-02-2007, 03:05 PM
They've added Ellsbury and removed Lester from the deal

That might get them Johan's left arm. If they want the whole package they better offer Buchholz in that deal too.

WizardsofOzzie
12-02-2007, 03:19 PM
Bucholz is not a maybe, he is a sure thing.

Hughes is a maybe, thats why the yanks would be crazy not to do this trade.

:rolleyes:

Other can't miss prospects include Joe Borchard and Jeremy Reed

Fenway
12-02-2007, 03:51 PM
They've added Ellsbury and removed Lester from the deal

The mob will have the torches and pitchforks out if they do this.

NO THEO NO

JermaineDye05
12-02-2007, 04:03 PM
The mob will have the torches and pitchforks out if they do this.

NO THEO NO

Will the Boston fans really rather have Ellsbury in their lineup then Santana in their rotation?

Fenway
12-02-2007, 04:50 PM
Will the Boston fans really rather have Ellsbury in their lineup then Santana in their rotation?

Yes....many believe that they would not have beaten Cleveland if Ellsbury had not replaced Coco starting in game 5 of the ALCS

Some think Santana is showing some downside now......

Still Becket, Santana, Dice-K, Buchholz, Schilling ( and don't forget Wakefield.... ) they won't have too many losing steaks :?:

Next move NYY

JermaineDye05
12-02-2007, 04:55 PM
Yes....many believe that they would not have beaten Cleveland if Ellsbury had not replaced Coco starting in game 5 of the ALCS

Some think Santana is showing some downside now......

Still Becket, Santana, Dice-K, Buchholz, Schilling ( and don't forget Wakefield.... ) they won't have too many losing steaks :?:

Next move NYY

My guess is that if Santana ends up in Boston, then Buchholz will be in Minnesota.

Fenway
12-02-2007, 05:08 PM
Will the Boston fans really rather have Ellsbury in their lineup then Santana in their rotation?

LIVE VIDEO fans marching at Fenway Park in protest (http://www.toonsart.com/aspx/dbImage.aspx?blobId=722)

BadBobbyJenks
12-03-2007, 01:12 AM
:rolleyes:

Other can't miss prospects include Joe Borchard and Jeremy Reed


Great Comparison:rolleyes: