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View Full Version : The HOF case for Tim Raines


Oblong
11-30-2007, 01:29 PM
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/cooperstown-needs-a-piece-of-the-rock/

Pretty convincing arguments. Ignore Rickey and compare his numbers to everybody else.

Since we’re discussing peer groups, how does Raines stack up among his? I’ve taken a 30-year spread that will encompass Raines’ entire career (1976-2005); further, I will use measures that largely favor top-of-the-order type-hitters.
....

Among left fielders, Raines takes a back seat only to Henderson and Barry Bonds. He has an easy case of being among the top 10 best outfielders and a legitimate claim to being among the top five of the last 30 years.
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SOXfnNlansing
11-30-2007, 09:38 PM
that was really cool to read. I really never thought of Rock as a lock for the hall, but now I do!

Oblong
11-30-2007, 09:42 PM
Me either. I viewed him as seriously underrated but not quite HOF worthy. Even when looking at his stats it didn't hit me. But when you compre him to other outfielders of his time then it's hard for me to say he doesn't belong. If I had a ballot he'd go on it.

soxfanreggie
12-01-2007, 05:53 PM
Would be nice to see him get in, but you never know what the voters will do.

Save McCuddy's
12-04-2007, 12:55 AM
He should be a lock -- first ballot, but that is one whacky set of voters.

VeeckAsInWreck
12-04-2007, 12:58 PM
If Raines gets in does he go in as a Montreal Expo?

downstairs
12-04-2007, 01:29 PM
If Raines gets in does he go in as a Montreal Expo?

No two ways about it. That's when he was most known.

PennStater98r
12-04-2007, 05:20 PM
I tried to make a case for Raines on this site a year or so ago - was not accepted by many at the time.

Fenway
12-23-2007, 01:17 AM
Bob Ryan of the Boston Globe ponders Raines

http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/bob_ryan_blog/

There is one intriguing new candidate on the ballot. A lot of people are making the case for Tim Raines, who was, for a time, the Alydar to Rickey Henserson's Affirmed as far as leadoff men were concerned. He's got a lot of hits (2605) and a lot of stolen bases (808), but it's hard to say he was a truly great player for more than six or seven years, which, since he played for 23 seasons, means he was a fairly ordinary player with great legs for upwards of 15 years. I'll be very interested to see how much support he attracts.


By the way, Rickey is on the ballot next year. Like many others, I cannot wait for that acceptance speech. The over/under on how far he goes into the into the speech before mentioning he was always underpaid is three paragraphs.

TornLabrum
12-23-2007, 09:49 AM
The thing I'm waiting for in Henderson's acceptance speech is counting the number of times he refers to himself as "Rickey Henderson."

Brian26
12-23-2007, 12:15 PM
He should be a lock -- first ballot, but that is one whacky set of voters.

No way does Raines go in on the first ballot. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to get in, but when much bigger names have had to wait until their second or third try (Sandburg)....I just don't see Raines going in on his first chance.

gogosox16
12-23-2007, 12:18 PM
here's something else about Baines trying to get in the hall of fame
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071218&content_id=2332524&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Brian26
12-23-2007, 12:21 PM
Something else to consider is that Raines played in Montreal for over half of his career. Andre Dawson also played in Montreal for a large portion of his career and hasn't been voted in, although there's a strong case that can be made for him, especially since he won an MVP in his career.

gogosox16
12-23-2007, 12:23 PM
I never knew that Baines was only 134 hits away from 3,000 in his career. Probably didn't know that cause I'm only 16

Billy Ashley
12-26-2007, 10:27 PM
The Rice thread got me thinking about this one:

Tim Raines was one of the most underrated players of his era. Like Ricky Henderson he got on base a ton and as scored a ton of runs. Additionally, in an era of solid slap hitting lead off hitters in the mold of Billy Butler and Willie Wilson, Raines game also included a decent bit of power. He was in the top ten in the league in total bases five times, while also being in the top ten in doubles three times. Along with being in the top ten I triples nine times he also is fifth all time in stolen bases.
At the moment we’re in a golden age of offensive baseball. If Tim Raines were playing (and young) he’d still likely be only behind Ichero and Sizemore in terms of leading off and he did that for 16 years. He’s not an upper echelon hall of famer, but he certainly should be in.

Oblong
12-26-2007, 11:09 PM
The thing I'm waiting for in Henderson's acceptance speech is counting the number of times he refers to himself as "Rickey Henderson."

In a sidebar of The Bill Simmons book "Now I can die in peace" he mentions the top 5 funniest things in sports. One of them was "Rickey Henderson's HOF induction speech. (When it happens)"

twentywontowin
12-26-2007, 11:39 PM
Tim Raines could make the HoF, but the one thing I wonder, is if any of the voters are going to consider his cocaine involvement into the equation?

If any of them did, it hurts his chances.

Billy Ashley
12-26-2007, 11:50 PM
Tim Raines could make the HoF, but the one thing I wonder, is if any of the voters are going to consider his cocaine involvement into the equation?

If any of them did, it hurts his chances.

I don't think it will, Coke isn't really a PED and while he was hooked on it, he did manage to get off it. For the most part, I've read that he's always been a respected teammate.

Save McCuddy's
01-02-2008, 04:25 PM
No way does Raines go in on the first ballot. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to get in, but when much bigger names have had to wait until their second or third try (Sandburg)....I just don't see Raines going in on his first chance.

I've never understood this silly distinction about the HOF. If you're in, then you're in. Sure, some years the ballot may be more loaded than other years, and a player may have to wait, but the notion that you're good enough to be in, but not good enough for first ballot is assinine. But you are correct, this notion does persist and may affect Rock.

jabrch
01-02-2008, 04:53 PM
I have no problem putting Rice and Raines together... For $40 either can buy a membership. Heck - both can probably afford the $1000 benefactors membership so they get reserved seating and HOF Weekend privlidges.

But neither should have their bust sitting next to the greats to ever play the game. And the fact that Rizzuto is in there, and so are other weak candidates, doesn't mean that the BBWA should continue to weakend the gene pool of the HOF.

PennStater98r
01-02-2008, 07:21 PM
I've never understood this silly distinction about the HOF. If you're in, then you're in. Sure, some years the ballot may be more loaded than other years, and a player may have to wait, but the notion that you're good enough to be in, but not good enough for first ballot is assinine. But you are correct, this notion does persist and may affect Rock.

Whether the statement is assinine depends on the context. If the statement is made "Raines deserves to go, BUT only after he has been on the ballot does he deservet he distinction of being a Hall of Fame member, it's assinine."

However, if the statement reads, "Raines deserves to go, but he's not first ballot material, because I suspect it will take years of consideration and thought from out sports writers before they recognize his greatness!" now it's a genius statement, because I think that's going to be the case of Tim Raines (who might be a LF that was better than Rice btw :cool:).

PennStater98r
01-02-2008, 07:25 PM
And the fact that Rizzuto is in their, and so are other weak candidates, doesn't mean that the BBWA should continue to weakend the gene pool of the HOF.

Not that I believe Rizzuto should or shouldn't be in. I will say this though - you're making that judgement based on his offensive numbers only. Prior to a guy with the Nickname of the Wizard of Oz (no the other one), Rizzuto was generally thought to be the best defender at the most important defensive position in the game. Oh, and he won an MVP as well has had respectable career per 162 games offensive numbers. That, my friend, is why Rizzuto is in. If your standards discount defense as criteria to be considered for the Hall, that's your prerogative, but I think Rizzuto is an easy target (as O. Smith will be in future generations).

jabrch
01-02-2008, 09:19 PM
Not that I believe Rizzuto should or shouldn't be in. I will say this though - you're making that judgement based on his offensive numbers only. Prior to a guy with the Nickname of the Wizard of Oz (no the other one), Rizzuto was generally thought to be the best defender at the most important defensive position in the game. Oh, and he won an MVP as well has had respectable career per 162 games offensive numbers. That, my friend, is why Rizzuto is in. If your standards discount defense as criteria to be considered for the Hall, that's your prerogative, but I think Rizzuto is an easy target (as O. Smith will be in future generations).

I'm fine with that arguement and I am to young to have seen Rizzuto play - but in that case people shouldn't say, "well - this guy has better numbers than Rizz." Rizzuto being in or out - I guess - has no bearing on Rice or Raines - that was my point. Rice needs to be judged against corner OFs - as should Raines.

That said - Rizzuto making the HOF with his offensive numbers I guess bothers me most because the BBWA didn't do it - and it took til nearly the end of his elig. with the Vets for it to happen. I don't believe he belongs (again - I am 36, so I never saw him) based on what I know. Smith, as I recall, was a 1st ballott HOFer by the BBWA - clearly only for his defense.

Again - this guy is in so that guy should be...it just bothers me. (I know that wasn't what you were saying)

batmanZoSo
01-02-2008, 09:30 PM
I've never understood this silly distinction about the HOF. If you're in, then you're in. Sure, some years the ballot may be more loaded than other years, and a player may have to wait, but the notion that you're good enough to be in, but not good enough for first ballot is assinine. But you are correct, this notion does persist and may affect Rock.

The whole concept of the Hall of fame is asinine really. I mean not everybody voted for Babe Ruth. What the ****? He got like 96 something percent or 98, or whatever. But it is the way it is. Raines is a HOFer and that logically means he should get in immediately, but realistically it's probably not gonna happen the first time around. It is the hall of fame after all. The voters definitely make sure to heed that title.

Save McCuddy's
01-02-2008, 11:56 PM
I'm fine with that arguement and I am to young to have seen Rizzuto play - but in that case people shouldn't say, "well - this guy has better numbers than Rizz." Rizzuto being in or out - I guess - has no bearing on Rice or Raines - that was my point. Rice needs to be judged against corner OFs - as should Raines.

That said - Rizzuto making the HOF with his offensive numbers I guess bothers me most because the BBWA didn't do it - and it took til nearly the end of his elig. with the Vets for it to happen. I don't believe he belongs (again - I am 36, so I never saw him) based on what I know. Smith, as I recall, was a 1st ballott HOFer by the BBWA - clearly only for his defense.

Again - this guy is in so that guy should be...it just bothers me. (I know that wasn't what you were saying)

In Rice's case, the Rizzuto in the room is Orlando Cepeda. But I don't subscribe to the lowest common denominator law of Hall entry either.

Raines as a left fielder does bear the burden of comparison with other corner outfielders/DH's and first basemen. However, the significant distinction of being a leadoff hitter, #5 all time in stolen bases, # 1 all-time in stolen base percentage (for swipers of 500 plus bases) excludes him from direct comparison. It's common sense. He goes up against fellow leadoff hitters and the weight of the judgement falls on OBP and stolen bases. The hall does recognize such greatness and Raines's entry is legitimate.

Billy Ashley
01-03-2008, 02:17 AM
I'm fine with that arguement and I am to young to have seen Rizzuto play - but in that case people shouldn't say, "well - this guy has better numbers than Rizz." Rizzuto being in or out - I guess - has no bearing on Rice or Raines - that was my point. Rice needs to be judged against corner OFs - as should Raines.

That said - Rizzuto making the HOF with his offensive numbers I guess bothers me most because the BBWA didn't do it - and it took til nearly the end of his elig. with the Vets for it to happen. I don't believe he belongs (again - I am 36, so I never saw him) based on what I know. Smith, as I recall, was a 1st ballott HOFer by the BBWA - clearly only for his defense.

Again - this guy is in so that guy should be...it just bothers me. (I know that wasn't what you were saying)

First time in my short life here that I've agreed with you. Rizzuto was a nice player. However his defense was likely no where as good as people claim it was. He likely was the defender Ozzie Guillen was (very very good) but not sucky with the bat. That doesn't make a person worthy of the HoF. Both Scooter and Rick Ferrell got in by the vets when they were questionable candidates at best.

Paulwny
01-03-2008, 12:01 PM
Not that I believe Rizzuto should or shouldn't be in. I will say this though - you're making that judgement based on his offensive numbers only. Prior to a guy with the Nickname of the Wizard of Oz (no the other one), Rizzuto was generally thought to be the best defender at the most important defensive position in the game. Oh, and he won an MVP as well has had respectable career per 162 games offensive numbers. That, my friend, is why Rizzuto is in. If your standards discount defense as criteria to be considered for the Hall, that's your prerogative, but I think Rizzuto is an easy target (as O. Smith will be in future generations).

The yanks couldn't accept the induction of Pee Wee Reese and not Rizzuto. King George went to work, threatening to boycott the annual HOF game until Rizzuto was inducted . This plus the fear yank fans, because of George's move, would also boycott the HOF affecting the businesses in Cooperstown caused the Veteran's committee to cave.
These are probably the main reasons Rizzuto is in the HOF.

Fenway
01-03-2008, 12:19 PM
Raines should be considered for the HoF but in no way should he get in on his first try.

His number is retired by the Expos and hangs from the rafters at Centre Bell

http://images.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/_photos/2005-10-18-canadiens-mascot.jpg

Hitmenof77
01-03-2008, 12:47 PM
Tim Raines could make the HoF, but the one thing I wonder, is if any of the voters are going to consider his cocaine involvement into the equation?

If any of them did, it hurts his chances.

Ever heard of Fergie Jenkins or Orlando Cepeda? Both going involved with drugs and they made the HOF.