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chitown13
11-30-2007, 01:00 PM
Toriiii was just on with Waddle & Silvy and said that he knows Chicago fans don't want to know this but he was about to sign with us until the Angels swept in. He said that he picked them over us because of the chance to get to the World Series was greater. He said factors such as the Central being too strong and the west coast only having 4 teams with Oakland and Texas a few years away.

Waddle asked him about Kenny Williams and if he shared his plans with him and of course Torii said he couldn't share that info but that his (KW) plan is a great one and that Chicago fans will NOT be disappointed and we'll be VERY happy. (He stressed NOT and VERY).

We'll see

balke
11-30-2007, 01:01 PM
Fire Kenny

asindc
11-30-2007, 01:03 PM
I think this illustrates even more how much LAAAAA overpaid for Toriiiiiii.

colles9
11-30-2007, 01:04 PM
Though I would have loved to see Torii roaming CF for the next couple years in the Cell there is no way that I would have swooped in with a contract like that. His logic makes sense with the opportunity to get to the WS. But if that was the only case then why did the Angels up the offer so much? Hell, wouldnt you expect them to offer the same amount of money?

Taliesinrk
11-30-2007, 01:10 PM
Hunter is like a PR dream. He seems to be pretty classy with most anything he does. I dont think hes as good as the money he got, but good for him.

goon
11-30-2007, 01:13 PM
I like KW, so I'm not implying anything, but if the "plan" he shared with Torii was so amazing, then why didn't he sign with us? **** off Torri.

santo=dorf
11-30-2007, 01:14 PM
More kiss ass stuff from Hunter. This guy got his money already. He needs to give it a rest.

Overpaid, overrated, big mouthed, ego-maniac. I'm so glad the Angels signed him.

doublem23
11-30-2007, 01:15 PM
Waddle asked him about Kenny Williams and if he shared his plans with him and of course Torii said he couldn't share that info but that his (KW) plan is a great one and that Chicago fans will NOT be disappointed and we'll be VERY happy. (He stressed NOT and VERY).

Actions speak louder than words.

Not that I'm terribly upset we're not the ones overspending for Torii, but how you can you believe this guy thinks KW has a great plan, when he just said he went to LAA because they've got a better chance to make the World Series?

ilsox7
11-30-2007, 01:15 PM
I like KW, so I'm not implying anything, but if the "plan" he shared with Torii was so amazing, then why didn't he sign with us? **** off Torri.

Because he got significantly more money from a better team. Seems pretty straightforward.

UserNameBlank
11-30-2007, 01:18 PM
Though I would have loved to see Torii roaming CF for the next couple years in the Cell there is no way that I would have swooped in with a contract like that. His logic makes sense with the opportunity to get to the WS. But if that was the only case then why did the Angels up the offer so much? Hell, wouldnt you expect them to offer the same amount of money?
Well, if Torii was close to signing with us then the Angels had to blow him away, which they did.

colles9
11-30-2007, 01:20 PM
Toriiii was just on with Waddle & Silvy and said that he knows Chicago fans don't want to know this but he was about to sign with us until the Angels swept in. He said that he picked them over us because of the chance to get to the World Series was greater. He said factors such as the Central being too strong and the west coast only having 4 teams with Oakland and Texas a few years away.


At no point in the article do i see that MONEY is a factor in his decision. So back to my question, why would the Angels need to blow the deal out of the water?

skottyj242
11-30-2007, 01:22 PM
Torii Hunter should be in jail. He killed Jamie Burke.

goon
11-30-2007, 01:22 PM
Because he got significantly more money from a better team. Seems pretty straightforward.


Then he should say that. Instead, he says that the Angels have a better shot to win a World Series, but "the White Sox fans will be happy with what KW is going to do....Chicago is a great city with great fans...(paraphrased)." Whatever Torii. You signed with the Angels, it was a better deal with a better team, no need to come onto a Chicago show to save face. Sox fans understand why you signed with the Angels, let it go, man.

UserNameBlank
11-30-2007, 01:22 PM
Actions speak louder than words.

Not that I'm terribly upset we're not the ones overspending for Torii, but how you can you believe this guy thinks KW has a great plan, when he just said he went to LAA because they've got a better chance to make the World Series?
Because honestly, it would have to be a great plan just to get the Sox back into contention in the AL Central.

Of course, the Angels have a great plan too. Their plan includes Hunter in CF, dumping Bad Contract Jr. if possible, landing Garland and Miguel Cabrera, and possibly still picking up Miguel Tejada. This plan, when combined with the rebuilding A's and Rangers and the overrated Seattle (still don't have the starting pitching) makes the Angels' great plan FANTASTIC.

colles9
11-30-2007, 01:24 PM
Then he should say that. Instead, he says that the Angels have a better shot to win a World Series, but "the White Sox fans will be happy with what KW is going to do....Chicago is a great city with great fans...(paraphrased)." Whatever Torii. You signed with the Angels, it was a better deal with a better team, no need to come onto a Chicago radiostation to save face. Sox fans understand why you signed with the Angels, let it go, man.

THANK YOU. **** that ass clown (Torii that is)

Chicken Dinner
11-30-2007, 01:25 PM
Torii Hunter should be in jail. He killed Jamie Burke.

Jamie was never the same after that day. :(:

jenn2080
11-30-2007, 01:27 PM
Forgive me if I am not jumping for joy because Torii Hunter said Kenny Williams has a VERY good plan.:rolleyes:

dickallen15
11-30-2007, 01:31 PM
Torii could easily be a diplomat, but let's see what Kenny's plan is before jumping out windows. It may be great, but obviously Torii didn't see it as a guarantee to postseason, but the extra $15 million or so in his pocket could have been the real determining factor. I don't blame him. How many people would turn away an exta $15 million over 5 years ?

Lip Man 1
11-30-2007, 01:38 PM
Dick:

I guess when you've "only" made a hundred million or so that 'extra' 15 million SURE makes a difference.

:D:

Sorry I can't conceive of that kind of money so to me whether I 'only' make 10 million or make 20 million is simply numbers on a piece of paper. I couldn't come close to spending either amount if I had it in the first place.

I would think more factors would (should) come into play then numbers on a piece of paper but I guess that's why I'm not rich, never will be and really don't care if I am or not.

Lip

oeo
11-30-2007, 01:40 PM
Hunter is like a PR dream. He seems to be pretty classy with most anything he does. I dont think hes as good as the money he got, but good for him.

Torii and classy in the same sentence...now that's funny.

Tekijawa
11-30-2007, 01:40 PM
KW: "well Torii here's my Plan"
Torii: "I can wait to hear it"
KW: "First we sign you.."
Torii: "Yeah"
KW: "Then A Rod" http://re3.mm-a5.yimg.com/image/3175191189 (http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fs earch%2Fimages%3F_adv_prop%3Dimage%26va%3Dinanimat e%2Bcarbon%2Brod%26sz%3Dall%26ei%3DUTF-8%26ni%3D20%26fr%3Dyfp-t-501%26b%3D1&w=70&h=70&imgurl=www.nohomers.net%2Fimage.php%3Fu%3D11034%26 amp%3Bdateline%3D1094037618&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nohomers.net%2Fmember.php%3F u%3D11034&size=5.7kB&name=image.php&p=inanimate+carbon+rod&type=jpeg&no=6&tt=33&oid=281ec7bbc73fffda&ei=UTF-8)

D. TODD
11-30-2007, 01:47 PM
Torii and classy in the same sentence...now that's funny. He has a great reputation throughout the league. Classy is a term I hear quite often from media, players, managers, etc. when people talk about Torii Hunter.

oeo
11-30-2007, 01:48 PM
He has a great reputation throughout the league. Classy is a term I hear quite often from media, players, managers, etc. when people talk about Torii Hunter.

That's because he's an ass kisser. Didn't you learn anything about the guy over the past month?

Jim Thome and Jermaine Dye are classy; Torii Hunter is not.

I'll agree that he's a 'PR dream,' because he will just kiss everyone's ass, but classy he is not.

colles9
11-30-2007, 01:53 PM
Torri Hunter = Classy is like saying Jenna Jamison is a virgin. Just doesnt make sense... however she is also a "PR" dream!

CWSpalehoseCWS
11-30-2007, 02:19 PM
I hope the Sox can make it back to the postseason before the Angels, just so I can see the looks on Torii's face. But since the Angels will likely win their division next year, hopefully they never make it out of the first round.

Sockinchisox
11-30-2007, 02:29 PM
I like KW, so I'm not implying anything, but if the "plan" he shared with Torii was so amazing, then why didn't he sign with us? **** off Torri.

Kenny has to actually pull off what he said to Torii rather than have it on a piece of paper.

Anaheim already had everything in place, they don't have to make many other moves to compete, while Kenny has to pull off quite a few deals to get us to compete for a championship.

It's a no brainer really.

soltrain21
11-30-2007, 02:43 PM
That's because he's an ass kisser. Didn't you learn anything about the guy over the past month?

Jim Thome and Jermaine Dye are classy; Torii Hunter is not.

I'll agree that he's a 'PR dream,' because he will just kiss everyone's ass, but classy he is not.


Why does Jim Thome fit into that category? He did the EXACT same thing Hunter did while he was a free agent. I remember him talking up the Cubs a ton, and saying how he didn't want to leave Cleveland.

This is a business. Wouldn't you take a job that offered you more money and gave you a better chance to succeed? The Angels are going in the right direction. Are we? Who knows...

As for everyone saying he is contradicting himself about the a better chance to win the WS...well first off - he is right. The Angels are in a much better spot than us. Maybe Kenny did reveal his plan, and maybe Kenny's plan has NOTHING to do with us competing in the next 2 or 3 years.

Torii Hunter IS classy. I've heard nothing but first hand accounts about how nice the guy is.

spawn
11-30-2007, 02:45 PM
Instead of trashing Torii, I'm just going to say I hope he's right, and that we will be very happy once KW's plan is revealed.

goon
11-30-2007, 02:51 PM
Kenny has to actually pull off what he said to Torii rather than have it on a piece of paper.

Anaheim already had everything in place, they don't have to make many other moves to compete, while Kenny has to pull off quite a few deals to get us to compete for a championship.

It's a no brainer really.

I totally agree, however, I think you're overlooking what I'm actually saying. Torri doesn't need to do an interview with a Chicago radio show to explain anything. We completely understand why he signed with the Angels, but what's getting irritating is how he does an interview talking about how great our organization is, all along telling the media how great the facilities are, how the city is awesome, just like he did with Texas. It's all just PR and self-promotion, there's no need for it, at least not now, not for a city or for a team you aren't playing for.

I don't hate Torri at all, unlike other posters, I'm just getting tired of seeing his jaw flap up and down. Go play for the Angels and leave us alone.

areilly
11-30-2007, 02:53 PM
Instead of trashing Torii, I'm just going to say I hope he's right, and that we will be very happy once KW's plan is revealed.

I think I have an idea of what Kenny Williams' plan is:
1) Underbid for Aaron Rowand
2) Get outbid for Torii Hunter
3) Don't stand a chance at Alex Rodriguez
4) Stand even less of a chance for Miguel Cabrera
5) Gamble on scrap heap veterans
6) Gamble on other organizations' bust prospects
7) Pin your hopes to unproven rookie pitchers
8) Cling to untradeable albatross contracts
9) Talk a mean game about "grinding" and having a "plan"
10) Build a $100mm+, 80-win team

I can't wait for 2010.

oeo
11-30-2007, 02:54 PM
Why does Jim Thome fit into that category? He did the EXACT same thing Hunter did while he was a free agent. I remember him talking up the Cubs a ton, and saying how he didn't want to leave Cleveland.

I don't remember Thome ass-kissing 4 different teams. He left the Indians because they were going into a youth movement...which no one in Cleveland should be whining about.

This is a business. Wouldn't you take a job that offered you more money and gave you a better chance to succeed? The Angels are going in the right direction. Are we? Who knows...It's not about the money. It's about him saying every team is the perfect fit. He lied out of his ass constantly. If Texas reporters were asking him questions, he would say everything about Texas is perfect and they had a great chance. If it was Chicago reporters, he would turn around and say the same thing. He even said the Royals had a good shot.

Hell, I don't even believe him when he says he almost signed here...he's been sending out bull**** signals for the past month, why should I believe them now?

Torii Hunter IS classy. I've heard nothing but first hand accounts about how nice the guy is.Again, because he kisses everyone's ass. Ass-kisser is not the same thing as class.

Sockinchisox
11-30-2007, 02:56 PM
I totally agree, however, I think you're overlooking what I'm actually saying. Torri doesn't need to do an interview with a Chicago radio show to explain anything. We completely understand why he signed with the Angels, but what's getting irritating is how he does an interview talking about how great our organization is, all along telling the media how great the facilities are, how the city is awesome, just like he did with Texas. It's all just PR and self-promotion, there's no need for it, at least not now, not for a city or for a team you aren't playing for.

I don't hate Torri at all, unlike other posters, I'm just getting tired of seeing his jaw flap up and down. Go play for the Angels and leave us alone.

Oh ok, ya I dunno why he came on Chicago air again either, I was listening to the show earlier and I thought I heard Silvy ask if they could get Hunter on.

ilsox7
11-30-2007, 02:57 PM
I can't wait for 2010.

Sweet! Then don't post here until then.

soltrain21
11-30-2007, 03:00 PM
I don't remember Thome ass-kissing 4 different teams. He left the Indians because they were going into a youth movement...which no one in Cleveland should be whining about.

He ass kissed the Phillies, Cubs and talked about how he wanted to stay in Cleveland because it was his home.


It's not about the money. It's about him saying every team is the perfect fit. He lied out of his ass constantly. If Texas reporters were asking him questions, he would say everything about Texas is perfect and they had a great chance. If it was Chicago reporters, he would turn around and say the same thing. Hell, I don't even believe him when he says he almost signed here...he's been sending out bull**** signals for the past month, why should they be the truth now?

I would say every team that was throwing him money did have a great chance. It was essentially between us and Texas. Texas is close to his home, were offering him big money and he could rob some homeruns - obviously he would consider that.

We all know what he said about the Sox...nothing but good things. The Angels came out of nowhere and floored him with an offer PLUS they are a team that is way better than the Rangers and our beloved.

Sending out signals? How about he was weighing his options? Is he not allowed to do that? He did the EXACT same thing we would do in a job situation - he's just on a more public and grander scale.


Again, because he kisses everyone's ass.

Or because he is a nice guy? Once again, nothing but first hand accounts on how cordial he is to everybody he has talked to.

I think you need to get over the fact that he ran over Jaime Burke.

oeo
11-30-2007, 03:06 PM
I would say every team that was throwing him money did have a great chance. It was essentially between us and Texas. Texas is close to his home, were offering him big money and he could rob some homeruns - obviously he would consider that.

We all know what he said about the Sox...nothing but good things. The Angels came out of nowhere and floored him with an offer PLUS they are a team that is way better than the Rangers and our beloved.

Sending out signals? How about he was weighing his options? Is he not allowed to do that? He did the EXACT same thing we would do in a job situation - he's just on a more public and grander scale.

Ha. There's better ways to 'weigh your options,' rather than kissing ass to drive the price up. How about not saying anything? Why did he even do this interview today in the first place? I don't like the guy at all, he comes off as an ass.

Or because he is a nice guy? Once again, nothing but first hand accounts on how cordial he is to everybody he has talked to.

I think you need to get over the fact that he ran over Jaime Burke.It has nothing to do with Jamie Burke. I mentioned a few weeks ago when this came up that it didn't bother me. When did I say anything about Jamie Burke or his on-field play? We're talking about the off-the-field Torii Hunter.

Torii Hunter has no ethics...he's an ass, and no one will convince me otherwise.

salty99
11-30-2007, 03:09 PM
Jamie was never the same after that day. :(:


Jaime had a nice year last year spending the entire season with the Mariners hitting .301 in 50 games.

spawn
11-30-2007, 03:09 PM
He ass kissed the Phillies, Cubs and talked about how he wanted to stay in Cleveland because it was his home.




I would say every team that was throwing him money did have a great chance. It was essentially between us and Texas. Texas is close to his home, were offering him big money and he could rob some homeruns - obviously he would consider that.

We all know what he said about the Sox...nothing but good things. The Angels came out of nowhere and floored him with an offer PLUS they are a team that is way better than the Rangers and our beloved.

Sending out signals? How about he was weighing his options? Is he not allowed to do that? He did the EXACT same thing we would do in a job situation - he's just on a more public and grander scale.




Or because he is a nice guy? Once again, nothing but first hand accounts on how cordial he is to everybody he has talked to.

I think you need to get over the fact that he ran over Jaime Burke.
Dude, you're wasting your breath. It's not worth it. Some people will not get over their hatred or dislike of some players.

asindc
11-30-2007, 03:12 PM
I think I have an idea of what Kenny Williams' plan is:
1) Underbid for Aaron Rowand
2) Get outbid for Torii Hunter
3) Don't stand a chance at Alex Rodriguez
4) Stand even less of a chance for Miguel Cabrera
5) Gamble on scrap heap veterans
6) Gamble on other organizations' bust prospects
7) Pin your hopes to unproven rookie pitchers
8) Cling to untradeable albatross contracts
9) Talk a mean game about "grinding" and having a "plan"
10) Build a $100mm+, 80-win team

I can't wait for 2010.

Again, I must ask those who insist on acting like KW botched the Hunter deal, did you really want KW to sign him for 5/95? 5/90? If not, what is your beef?

As for underbidding for Rowand, unless you know the numbers tossed on the table, this only rises to the level of bald speculation. It cannot even be considered a fully-formed opinion.

As for standing a chance with A-Rod, do you really fault KW for that?:rolleyes:

soltrain21
11-30-2007, 03:12 PM
Torii Hunter has no ethics...he's an ass, and no one will convince me otherwise.


What a ridiculous statement. You are right; nobody will convince you.

JackK
11-30-2007, 03:13 PM
Torii said he couldn't share that info but that his (KW) plan is a great one and that Chicago fans will NOT be disappointed and we'll be VERY happy. (He stressed NOT and VERY).

We'll see

We're going to get Santana!!!!

nccwsfan
11-30-2007, 03:18 PM
I think I have an idea of what Kenny Williams' plan is:
1) Underbid for Aaron Rowand
2) Get outbid for Torii Hunter
3) Don't stand a chance at Alex Rodriguez
4) Stand even less of a chance for Miguel Cabrera
5) Gamble on scrap heap veterans
6) Gamble on other organizations' bust prospects
7) Pin your hopes to unproven rookie pitchers
8) Cling to untradeable albatross contracts
9) Talk a mean game about "grinding" and having a "plan"
10) Build a $100mm+, 80-win team

I can't wait for 2010.

http://images.google.com/url?q=http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/53/17/23041753.jpg&usg=AFQjCNHYgN1UGYiPy43OMI9E8Xr_xIYlgg

I'm going to assume you see this as 'half empty'

dickallen15
11-30-2007, 03:20 PM
Dick:

I guess when you've "only" made a hundred million or so that 'extra' 15 million SURE makes a difference.

:D:

Sorry I can't conceive of that kind of money so to me whether I 'only' make 10 million or make 20 million is simply numbers on a piece of paper. I couldn't come close to spending either amount if I had it in the first place.

I would think more factors would (should) come into play then numbers on a piece of paper but I guess that's why I'm not rich, never will be and really don't care if I am or not.

Lip

You can look at it several ways. Most of these players should have enough to live the rest of their lives quite comfortably. But if you use the formula that invested money should double every 7 years the extra $15 million, say its $8 million after taxes, just sitting somewhere becomes $64 million in 21 years, and $128 million in 28 years when Hunter is in his mid 60s. I'm sure his heirs are happy he took the extra money. Its crazy money and he probably will never need it, but its hard to blame any of these guys for taking the highest offers.

spawn
11-30-2007, 03:26 PM
What a ridiculous statement. You are right; nobody will convince you.
I love when people make comments like that about people they've never or interacted with. :redneck

areilly
11-30-2007, 03:41 PM
Again, I must ask those who insist on acting like KW botched the Hunter deal, did you really want KW to sign him for 5/95? 5/90? If not, what is your beef?

As for underbidding for Rowand, unless you know the numbers tossed on the table, this only rises to the level of bald speculation. It cannot even be considered a fully-formed opinion.

As for standing a chance with A-Rod, do you really fault KW for that?:rolleyes:


I never wanted him to sign Hunter, only half-heartedly care if Rowand comes back or not, and don't blame him for where Alex Rodriguez ended up. The problem I have is with this idea that Kenny Williams somehow controls the fate of the team when he lacks the resources or the organizational will to play at the big kids' table. Yes, LAA put more money up but there's a very simple solution, if you really want something: be the highest bidder. End of story.

CF was one of the biggest holes the Sox had and looks to be getting bigger. They wouldn't offer the right dollars to one FA, and they won't offer the right years to the other. How is this approach supposed to fix anything now when KW's m.o. is supposedly to win now? He can huff and puff and posture all he wants to, but to say some master plan is laughable at best, wildly arrogant at work. As though there were no other teams. As though the Sox were an organization even a large minority of players are clamoring to play for.

Money talks and bull**** walks, as the old saying goes. Don't even think of bringing up the Thome deal either because he didn't sign that on terms negotiated with the Sox.

The Sox don't have the bargaining chips to bring in the talent via trade now, and they're not willing to spend the money to do it via free agency. 2005 worked; 2005 was also the biggest gamble of the organization's history, aside from collusion and engineering the strike...but that's for another discussion.

There is no plan, just a guy with a shopping list and a lot of "wouldn't that be nice" idealism. KW's a shrewd PR guy, I'll say that. I'll also say he's a very wishful thinker. Where team-building is concerned, he's what - 1 for 7? And yet, we're calling for the heads of players who perform that poorly.

Yes, I hope it works out and all the pieces fit the way they have before, but let's be serious: there's no reason to think the Sox have a chance anytime soon.

wulfy
11-30-2007, 03:43 PM
Again, I must ask those who insist on acting like KW botched the Hunter deal, did you really want KW to sign him for 5/95? 5/90? If not, what is your beef?

I don't care what they spend, it's not my money. What I do care about is that the team I spend my money on, puts the best possible product on the field.

JermaineDye05
11-30-2007, 03:47 PM
http://images.google.com/url?q=http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/53/17/23041753.jpg&usg=AFQjCNHYgN1UGYiPy43OMI9E8Xr_xIYlgg

I'm going to assume you see this as 'half empty'

http://austinist.com/attachments/austinist_smith/demetrimartin_1-12-07.jpg

'well it depends on what the contents of the glass are. I mean if it's a glass of **** I'm going half empty.'

asindc
11-30-2007, 03:58 PM
I don't care what they spend, it's not my money. What I do care about is that the team I spend my money on, puts the best possible product on the field.

That explains a lot.

UserNameBlank
11-30-2007, 04:39 PM
I think I have an idea of what Kenny Williams' plan is:
1) Underbid for Aaron Rowand
2) Get outbid for Torii Hunter
3) Don't stand a chance at Alex Rodriguez

I prefer all of these options.

4) Stand even less of a chance for Miguel Cabrera

Cabrera would be great if we could lock him up, but to get him we'd have to surrender pieces that we need to build the future with. It would be a tough call IMO, but the way see it is if we traded for Miguel then he could become, along with Buehrle, one of our franchise faces. That would enable us to deal Konerko and Dye, but for prospects and young players NOT named Reggie Willits or Erick Aybar, which for some reason WSIers love. Don't know why.

5) Gamble on scrap heap veterans

Another good idea IMO if the upside and price is both right. If KW signed Bartolo on a one year deal and we became contenders then not only would he help us but he'd get us draft picks after the year. If he blows apart then we don't lose much because he won't be pitching. Or, if he has a good year and we suck again in '08 then we can deal him at the break for prospects.

6) Gamble on other organizations' bust prospects

That depends on who you are talking about. Gavin Floyd is worth gambling on. Andy Sisco is probably not considering we have to rebuild Thornton's value and we need to let Logan continue to develop.

7) Pin your hopes to unproven rookie pitchers

That's how rookies get proven. Coming off of a 90-loss season, I'd say that's about what a reasonable organization should be doing.

8) Cling to untradeable albatross contracts

Contreras now doesn't get us much of anything unless we eat money. A strong start to '08 and all of the sudden he's a playoff veteran with only a year and a half left on a manageable contract. If that happens then we're golden and we can trade him for something of value. If not, then we're just stuck.

9) Talk a mean game about "grinding" and having a "plan"

Pods, Erstad, and Cintron are gone. That's a start at least. Plus I, knock on wood, haven't heard any rumors about Eckstein coming to town as a second baseman. Neither have I heard anything from the Sox about trading Konerko to the Angels for a bunch of dirty gears like some here would love to see.

10) Build a $100mm+, 80-win team

At this stage, that's pretty much unavoidable. We were going to get to this point anyway, and by that I mean we'd end up with a lot of expensive underperforming veterans. This happens to strong clubs, and it only makes the epic failure of the 2006 team that much worse. Kenny gave us what we needed for the most part and we failed. Now it's time to clean up the mess.

I can't wait for 2010.

Me either. We should have some young players on the field who are fun to watch byt then.

NardiWasHere
11-30-2007, 04:42 PM
I don't care what they spend, it's not my money. What I do care about is that the team I spend my money on, puts the best possible product on the field.

This is just stupid. The team spent A LOT of money on the team the past few years. It doesn't matter if it is your money or not. There is still a limited amount any team can spend. So if you want the team to overspend on a player, don't complain when they can not spend anything on other parts of the team.

I gotta say, I hate when people say this. It makes no sense and it is quite moronic.

santo=dorf
11-30-2007, 04:52 PM
Why does Jim Thome fit into that category? He did the EXACT same thing Hunter did while he was a free agent. I remember him talking up the Cubs a ton, and saying how he didn't want to leave Cleveland.

This is a business. Wouldn't you take a job that offered you more money and gave you a better chance to succeed? The Angels are going in the right direction. Are we? Who knows...

As for everyone saying he is contradicting himself about the a better chance to win the WS...well first off - he is right. The Angels are in a much better spot than us. Maybe Kenny did reveal his plan, and maybe Kenny's plan has NOTHING to do with us competing in the next 2 or 3 years.

Torii Hunter IS classy. I've heard nothing but first hand accounts about how nice the guy is.
I don't recall Thome coming out saying he wanted to go to a park where he can hit a lot of home runs (see Hunter's "me first" comment in regards to playing in a park to rob home runs.)
The day Jim Thome throws a ball back at a pitcher after being hit by a pitch is the day I stop calling him "classy" as well.

UserNameBlank
11-30-2007, 04:58 PM
The day Jim Thome throws a ball back at a pitcher after being hit by a pitch is the day I stop calling him "classy" as well.
What if he signed it first?

asindc
11-30-2007, 05:03 PM
The day Jim Thome throws a ball back at a pitcher after being hit by a pitch is the day I stop calling him "classy" as well.

I guess I'm in the minority of people who don't blame hitters for throwing back at pitchers. If a pitcher doesn't want to get rocked, pitch better!

As for those who believe the Sox are spending monopoly money, why not go all the way with your argument and insist the Sox out spend every team for every coveted player?

downstairs
11-30-2007, 05:10 PM
I guess I'm in the minority of people who don't blame hitters for throwing back at pitchers. If a pitcher doesn't want to get rocked, pitch better!

As for those who believe the Sox are spending monopoly money, why not go all the way with your argument and insist the Sox out spend every team for every coveted player?

You realize pitchers don't wear helmets, right?

asindc
11-30-2007, 05:13 PM
You realize pitchers don't wear helmets, right?

Yes, I do. If that is a pitcher's excuse for throwing at me, then it's a very sorry one. You realize Rico Petrocelli was wearing a helmet when he got beaned, right?

santo=dorf
11-30-2007, 05:21 PM
Yes, I do. If that is a pitcher's excuse for throwing at me, then it's a very sorry one. You realize Rico Petrocelli was wearing a helmet when he got beaned, right?
I'll have to watch a video of it, but I don't recall Riske trying to head hunt on Hunter.

Accidents happen.

PorkChopExpress
11-30-2007, 05:52 PM
http://images.google.com/url?q=http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/53/17/23041753.jpg&usg=AFQjCNHYgN1UGYiPy43OMI9E8Xr_xIYlgg

I'm going to assume you see this as 'half empty'

I see the glass as being twice as big as it needs to be.:D:

FarWestChicago
11-30-2007, 06:01 PM
http://images.google.com/url?q=http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/53/17/23041753.jpg&usg=AFQjCNHYgN1UGYiPy43OMI9E8Xr_xIYlgg

I'm going to assume you see this as 'half empty'It's actually not even close to half full. So, it's perfect for the quit before you start, chronic depressoids who completely dominate this site. :D:

white sox bill
11-30-2007, 07:07 PM
Torii Hunter said the politically correct thing....whats he gonna do start bad mouthing KW and the Sox organization? Theres nothing wrong with how he put it, he came across as classy and gracious.

But our gap in CF really has me worried. No relief in sight either. Hopefully KW's plan will pay dividends or summer of 08 could be a long one

areilly
11-30-2007, 08:38 PM
As for underbidding for Rowand, unless you know the numbers tossed on the table, this only rises to the level of bald speculation. It cannot even be considered a fully-formed opinion.

Addendum:

The Sox don't want to go beyond four years, and Rowand and his agent, Landis, are seeking a minimum of five. "That was our biggest point of disagreement," Landis said.

As the Rowand camp points out, Juan Pierre (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6550), Gary Matthews, J.D. Drew (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6117) and Hunter are among the outfielders who've signed five-year deals recently. And Carlos Lee (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6161), no fitness buff, got six years from Houston. The White Sox also were prepared to give five years and $75 million to Hunter, who's two years older than Rowand.

Story (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove07/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&id=3135031)

So there's your numbers. Tell me again about bald speculation.

asindc
11-30-2007, 08:49 PM
Addendum:



Story (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove07/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&id=3135031)

So there's your numbers. Tell me again about bald speculation.

Other than the quote about the Sox not wanting to offer more than 4 years, all the other numbers pertain to other players, not Rowand. Hence, my statement about the opinion not being fully formed.

BTW, the "Rowand camp" cites Juan Pierre (overpaid), Gary Matthews (overpaid, possibly juiced up, and about to be replaced after one year), JD Drew (grossly overpaid), Carlos Lee (a guy KW traded to bring in a guy who helped bring a WS Championship to Chicago for the 1st time in 88 years), and, of course, Hunter (overpaid, and better than Rowand). If the "Rowand camp" expects the Sox, or any other team, to pay Rowand those kinds of numbers, I hope KW passes.

As I have said continuously, many fans underestimate the deal not done. I offer as an example the Larry Hughes contract the Wiz passed on that Cleveland ended up giving him. It allowed the Wiz to bring in Caron Butler for less money. Tell me, which player would you prefer to have on your team?

Flight #24
11-30-2007, 10:05 PM
Other than the quote about the Sox not wanting to offer more than 4 years, all the other numbers pertain to other players, not Rowand. Hence, my statement about the opinion not being fully formed.

BTW, the "Rowand camp" cites Juan Pierre (overpaid), Gary Matthews (overpaid, possibly juiced up, and about to be replaced after one year), JD Drew (grossly overpaid), Carlos Lee (a guy KW traded to bring in a guy who helped bring a WS Championship to Chicago for the 1st time in 88 years), and, of course, Hunter (overpaid, and better than Rowand). If the "Rowand camp" expects the Sox, or any other team, to pay Rowand those kinds of numbers, I hope KW passes.

As I have said continuously, many fans underestimate the deal not done. I offer as an example the Larry Hughes contract the Wiz passed on that Cleveland ended up giving him. It allowed the Wiz to bring in Caron Butler for less money. Tell me, which player would you prefer to have on your team?

When everyone's overpaid, that's called "market price for a decent but not great player".

asindc
11-30-2007, 10:19 PM
When everyone's overpaid, that's called "market price for a decent but not great player".

That list does not constitute the entire market. It is no coindence that the "Rowand camp" came up with those names. You don't really think they would cite Jermaine Dye as an example, do you?

jabrch
11-30-2007, 10:23 PM
Tell me, which player would you prefer to have on your team?

Can either play CF?

Frontman
11-30-2007, 10:26 PM
More money and doesn't need to be booed for 12-16 games when going to Minnesota if he signed with the Sox.

I don't get

a: Why bother having the guy on, he said "NO" to a Chicago team.

b: Why bother coming on, as he said he didn't want to come here when offered more money.

c: Fans won't be disappointed, the Sox are going to be good under KW's plan, but the Angels have a better chance at getting to the WS. (This one boggles the mind.)

Simply put, Torii. ****.

jabrch
11-30-2007, 10:26 PM
chronic depressoids who completely dominate this site. :D:

No kidding....I'm so jazzed up knowing that Pitchers and Catchers report sometime in the next 3 months, I cant wait to get back to the ballpark for a game! I can't wait to cheer for whomever puts on the uniform. If it was Hunter, despite me not liking him, I would. It it is Rowand, despite me not liking him much for that money, I would. If it were Fukudome, great... Whomever...

The "chronic depressoids" are really amazing....

slavko
11-30-2007, 10:55 PM
Because he got significantly more money from a better team. Seems pretty straightforward.

I got one for ya that's even more straightforward. More money. The rest is bushwa.

chisox77
11-30-2007, 10:56 PM
Hunter did what he should do - weigh his options. At this point in his career, this was the big money contract, which made it the most important contract, picking the best offer from what he felt would be the best team.

It's over now. I wanted Hunter, but I can't blame him for his choice, or his reasons for picking LAA.


:cool:

wulfy
12-01-2007, 12:04 AM
This is just stupid. The team spent A LOT of money on the team the past few years. It doesn't matter if it is your money or not. There is still a limited amount any team can spend. So if you want the team to overspend on a player, don't complain when they can not spend anything on other parts of the team.

I gotta say, I hate when people say this. It makes no sense and it is quite moronic.

Thanks for the insight, Jerry. This team has the revenues to sign whoever they want. For you to posture otherwise reflects how well you have taken to the company line.

This isn't Kansas City, it's a major market with a fan base that has supported the team.

SoxSpeed22
12-01-2007, 12:58 AM
c: Fans won't be disappointed, the Sox are going to be good under KW's plan, but the Angels have a better chance at getting to the WS. (This one boggles the mind.)

Simply put, Torii. ****.LAA won 94 games this year, while we won 72. They are favorites in the AL West and don't have to go through Cleveland or Detroit. So logically, they have a better chance at the WS. Kenny may have a good plan, but we won't know if it works until the season.
I, for one, am not going to miss him at all in a Twins uniform and it would be weird to root for him in a Sox uniform. All of us know that LAA overpaid for him.

Flight #24
12-01-2007, 02:03 AM
That list does not constitute the entire market. It is no coindence that the "Rowand camp" came up with those names. You don't really think they would cite Jermaine Dye as an example, do you?

Dye is in the minority. He's also much older, with an injury history and coming off of a year in which he struggled early because of injuries. He took a discount to stay. And....he signed an $11M/yr deal.

Regardless, you can usually find a few guys who are way under or way over the general market. But that list actually comprises the bulk of recent FAs who are a)better than average and b)relatively young (low 30s or less). The complete list is here (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/features/freeagents?positionId=9&season=2006).

JD Drew, Gary Matthews, Juan Pierre, Soriano, Hunter. The only halfway decent guys making less are guys like Catalanotto & Delucci, who are not really comparable to Rowand (they're older & not as good). Jose Guillen will probably make $10M+.

For a relatively young guy, 5 years is not excessive in this market. Neither is $12M for a guy with his credentials. He's not a star, but if he was he'd be looking for $15M+ (examples: star but not superstar Torii just got $18. Last year Soriano got $17).

Sox don't have to pay it, but it's the going rate. And if your strategy is based on "I find only guys whoa re undervalued or willing to give significant discounts", then you're going to have a hard time contending because you can't find enough of them.

Frontman
12-01-2007, 08:47 AM
LAA won 94 games this year, while we won 72. They are favorites in the AL West and don't have to go through Cleveland or Detroit. So logically, they have a better chance at the WS. Kenny may have a good plan, but we won't know if it works until the season.
I, for one, am not going to miss him at all in a Twins uniform and it would be weird to root for him in a Sox uniform. All of us know that LAA overpaid for him.

Oh, his overpayment isn't in debate in my opinion; I just don't get his logic. Like others have said, why PR spin if you won't be coming here?

Man, I want to see more of this plan. So far, so good. I just want more.

And I want baseball season to start already.

With a churro.

And a Brat.

And a few beers.

asindc
12-01-2007, 02:58 PM
Dye is in the minority. He's also much older, with an injury history and coming off of a year in which he struggled early because of injuries. He took a discount to stay. And....he signed an $11M/yr deal.

Regardless, you can usually find a few guys who are way under or way over the general market. But that list actually comprises the bulk of recent FAs who are a)better than average and b)relatively young (low 30s or less). The complete list is here (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/features/freeagents?positionId=9&season=2006).

JD Drew, Gary Matthews, Juan Pierre, Soriano, Hunter. The only halfway decent guys making less are guys like Catalanotto & Delucci, who are not really comparable to Rowand (they're older & not as good). Jose Guillen will probably make $10M+.

For a relatively young guy, 5 years is not excessive in this market. Neither is $12M for a guy with his credentials. He's not a star, but if he was he'd be looking for $15M+ (examples: star but not superstar Torii just got $18. Last year Soriano got $17).

Sox don't have to pay it, but it's the going rate. And if your strategy is based on "I find only guys whoa re undervalued or willing to give significant discounts", then you're going to have a hard time contending because you can't find enough of them.

Excellent points. My only real contention is with those who are insisting that KW is botching this deal when all we know is that the Sox are offering 4 yrs. and the Rowand camp is offering 5 yrs while comparing Rowand to Hunter, Drew, Pierre, and May. We don't know the actual dollars proposed. It might be 4/15per on the Sox side and 5/14per on Rowand's side. We don't know. So to say KW is blowing it is wildly premature, and yes, not a fully formed opinion.

santo=dorf
12-01-2007, 03:10 PM
So Hunter knows what KW is planning to do. Wouldn't it be smart to let his new GM know so he can gain an upper hand on KW?

NardiWasHere
12-01-2007, 03:28 PM
Thanks for the insight, Jerry. This team has the revenues to sign whoever they want. For you to posture otherwise reflects how well you have taken to the company line.

This isn't Kansas City, it's a major market with a fan base that has supported the team.

If I'm Jerry, who are you Jay Marriotti? I said ANY team has a limit on their resources. Tell me how that is incorrect.

They can not sign whoever they want. When you say that its not your money the team is spending, that does not alter reality. There is still a certain amount that they have at their disposal. And THAT is why your initial statement was so dumb. If you wanted the team to sign Tori Hunter regardless of cost, then you have to understand that there would be less money to fill other holes/spots.

And you're right. This isn't Kansas City. They didn't have the 4th highest opening day payroll in the Major leagues last year. You know who did? The White Sox. Those cheap pieces of ****. How dare they?!!?!?!

So don't try to tell me that I've been led to believe some lie about the Sox payroll.

Taliesinrk
12-01-2007, 04:20 PM
So Hunter knows what KW is planning to do. Wouldn't it be smart to let his new GM know so he can gain an upper hand on KW?

I guess that depends on whether or not he's classy...

jabrch
12-01-2007, 04:44 PM
This isn't Kansas City, it's a major market with a fan base that has supported the team.

And thus has the 4th highest payroll in the AL. What's the problem?

The problem is some of the guys weren't healthy and others underperformed expectations. It's as simple as that.

This same team, with the same (actually smaller) payroll won 189 games in the two seasons prior. I'm sure you remember that, right?

spiffie
12-01-2007, 04:52 PM
And thus has the 4th highest payroll in the AL. What's the problem?

The problem is some of the guys weren't healthy and others underperformed expectations. It's as simple as that.

This same team, with the same (actually smaller) payroll won 189 games in the two seasons prior. I'm sure you remember that, right?
Problem is that its not the same team as from 2005, or 2006, that lost 90 games last year.

From 2005 to 2007 the Sox replaced 1/2 of the pitchers who started games for them in 2005, all but one of the pitchers who were in the bullpen, both of the DHs from 2005, both of the starting DHs, the starting CF, the starting 2B, the starting LF, and much of the bench. They also replaced healthy Joe Crede with chronic back pain Joe Crede, and Juan Uribe with his slower, lazier, fatter clone.

To use 2005 as a reference point for what this team is likely to do in 2008 is just not a very accurate predictor at this point.

Lip Man 1
12-01-2007, 07:03 PM
Agreed.

Lip

Flight #24
12-02-2007, 12:12 AM
And thus has the 4th highest payroll in the AL. What's the problem?

The problem is some of the guys weren't healthy and others underperformed expectations. It's as simple as that.

This same team, with the same (actually smaller) payroll won 189 games in the two seasons prior. I'm sure you remember that, right?

The problem the Sox have is that because their farm is weak they have 3 options.

1) Rebuild, trade vets and bolster the farm (unlikely)
2) Up payroll further, fill the gaping holes using FA
3) Roll the dice again with mid-level FAs and kids. This is not a recipe for contention, despite the success in 2005.

This is not the same team that won in '05, even '06. The bullpen is significantly different, the rotation has 2 new pitchers and Contreras who's declined significantly since then. And the lineup is older and unlike 2005, has some pretty gaping holes (leadoff - Pods was great through most of 05, SS - Uribe wasn't the gaping hole he is now, CF - Rowand was solid, 2B - Iguchi was solid).

jabrch
12-02-2007, 01:22 AM
Problem is that its not the same team as from 2005, or 2006, that lost 90 games last year.

But that's a different story than the post that I responded to that said that we aren't Kansas City, as to imply cheapness. Totally different issue.


The problem the Sox have is that because their farm is weak they have 3 options.


Again, this has nothing to do with us being Kansas City...