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View Full Version : Santana to Red Sox buzz not coming from Boston but St Paul


Fenway
11-29-2007, 01:35 PM
The Red Sox may be the frontrunners for Minnesota ace Johan Santana, according to Charlie Walters of the St. Paul Pioneer Press: (http://www.twincities.com/walters)

"The Twins would receive four players for the Twins' two-time Cy Young Award winner, including center fielder Coco Crisp, 28. Others would be shortstop prospect Jed Lowrie, 23; left-handed pitcher Jon Lester, 23; and right-handed pitcher Justin Masterson, 22. Before a deal could be made, the Red Sox would have to have time to negotiate a contract extension with Santana, 28, who can become a free agent after next season and could have a market value as high as $150 million over six years."

GAsoxfan
11-29-2007, 01:47 PM
If the Red Sox could get Santana without giving up Buchholz or Ellsbury, that would be a great deal for them.

A starting rotation of Beckett/Santana/Dice-K/Schilling/Buchholz would be unbelieveable.

chisoxmike
11-29-2007, 01:50 PM
A starting rotation of Beckett/Santana/Dice-K/Schilling/Buchholz would be unbelieveable.

Yeah, it would.

But a lot of people thought a rotation of Buehrle/Garcia/Contreras/Garland/Vazquez was unbeliveable too. Including Mark Buehrle.

champagne030
11-29-2007, 01:52 PM
The Red Sox may be the frontrunners for Minnesota ace Johan Santana, according to Charlie Walters of the St. Paul Pioneer Press: (http://www.twincities.com/walters)

"The Twins would receive four players for the Twins' two-time Cy Young Award winner, including center fielder Coco Crisp, 28. Others would be shortstop prospect Jed Lowrie, 23; left-handed pitcher Jon Lester, 23; and right-handed pitcher Justin Masterson, 22. Before a deal could be made, the Red Sox would have to have time to negotiate a contract extension with Santana, 28, who can become a free agent after next season and could have a market value as high as $150 million over six years."

Good thing for Minnesota that a former safety for the Cowboys isn't their GM. That's like the White Sox getting Santana for Fields, Danks, Russell and Richar. Where do I sign up?

Fenway
11-29-2007, 01:52 PM
Here’s one trade proposal (http://www.twincities.com/sansevere/ci_7566304?nclick_check=1) courtesy of the St. Paul Pioneer Press’ Bob Sansevere, who suggests that Twins GM Terry Ryan get Theo Epstein on the phone stat and offer the following trade proposal: Johan Santana, Carlos Silva and Joe Nathan for Jacoby Ellsbury, Dustin Pedroia, Jonathan Papelbon, Jon Lester and Clay Buchholz.

Might as well throw in the Citgo sign, Neil Diamond, The Standells, Johnny Pesky and Ted Williams head too.

The silly season has arrived

PalehosePlanet
11-29-2007, 02:05 PM
Here’s one trade proposal (http://www.twincities.com/sansevere/ci_7566304?nclick_check=1) courtesy of the St. Paul Pioneer Press’ Bob Sansevere, who suggests that Twins GM Terry Ryan get Theo Epstein on the phone stat and offer the following trade proposal: Johan Santana, Carlos Silva and Joe Nathan for Jacoby Ellsbury, Dustin Pedroia, Jonathan Papelbon, Jon Lester and Clay Buchholz.

Might as well throw in the Citgo sign, Neil Diamond, The Standells, Johnny Pesky and Ted Williams head too.

The silly season has arrived

Especially silly when you consider that Silva is no longer a twinkie. Maybe the Twins can include Dan Gladden and kent Hrbek in that deal too.

Soxzilla
11-29-2007, 02:21 PM
Jesus ... and since the Twins are looking for a new stadium, he might as well suggest Terry inquire about the availability of Fenway Park as well.

ilsox7
11-29-2007, 02:24 PM
Here’s one trade proposal (http://www.twincities.com/sansevere/ci_7566304?nclick_check=1) courtesy of the St. Paul Pioneer Press’ Bob Sansevere, who suggests that Twins GM Terry Ryan get Theo Epstein on the phone stat and offer the following trade proposal: Johan Santana, Carlos Silva and Joe Nathan for Jacoby Ellsbury, Dustin Pedroia, Jonathan Papelbon, Jon Lester and Clay Buchholz.

Might as well throw in the Citgo sign, Neil Diamond, The Standells, Johnny Pesky and Ted Williams head too.

The silly season has arrived

What's his WSI username?

drewcifer
11-29-2007, 02:33 PM
Especially silly when you consider that Silva is no longer a twinkie. Maybe the Twins can include Dan Gladden and kent Hrbek in that deal too.

I thought Terry Ryan stepped down as well. Isn't Bill Smith the GM now?

thedudeabides
11-29-2007, 02:33 PM
Especially silly when you consider that Silva is no longer a twinkie. Maybe the Twins can include Dan Gladden and kent Hrbek in that deal too.

Not to mention Terry Ryan is no longer the GM. Well researched article.

Hendu
11-29-2007, 02:48 PM
Here’s one trade proposal (http://www.twincities.com/sansevere/ci_7566304?nclick_check=1) courtesy of the St. Paul Pioneer Press’ Bob Sansevere, who suggests that Twins GM Terry Ryan get Theo Epstein on the phone stat and offer the following trade proposal: Johan Santana, Carlos Silva and Joe Nathan for Jacoby Ellsbury, Dustin Pedroia, Jonathan Papelbon, Jon Lester and Clay Buchholz.

Might as well throw in the Citgo sign, Neil Diamond, The Standells, Johnny Pesky and Ted Williams head too.

The silly season has arrived

Ha. Maybe if Boston throws in some cash considerations too.

ma-gaga
11-29-2007, 02:55 PM
Charlie Walters is full of crap. Bob Sansevere is full of crap.

"Hey look, I have a pile of crap to offer you."

"great!"

-------------------------------------------

I mean really, these two "trade proposals" completely portray the accuracy, thoughtfulness, and reliability the newspaper industry, especially as it pertains to sports.

Bottom line; the Twins want to get as much as possible and are probably leaking a little bit of information. Something like, "we're currently in discussions with Boston about multiple players".

We'll see if it works. :cool:

Fenway
11-29-2007, 04:33 PM
Dan Roche of WBZ-TV says the deal is done and will be announced later this evening

Sean McAdam on WEEI saying he is hearing the same thing except it will not be announced until Santana is locked up and the Red Sox would get 72 hours to do so.

Boston sends Coco Crisp, Jon Lester, Michael Bowden and Jed Lowrie to the Twins.

Jed Lowrie (http://soxprospects.com/players/lowrie-jed.htm)SS, Pawtucket


http://soxprospects.com/50/bowden.michael.jpg (http://soxprospects.com/players/bowden-michael.htm)
Michael Bowden (http://soxprospects.com/players/bowden-michael.htm)
SP, Portland

we shall see

munchman33
11-29-2007, 04:35 PM
Dan Roche of WBZ-TV says the deal is done and will be announced later this evening

Sean McAdam on WEEI saying he is hearing the same thing except it will not be announced until Santana is locked up and the Red Sox would get 72 hours to do so.

Boston sends Coco Crisp, Jon Lester, Michael Bowden and Jed Lowrie to the Twins.

Jed Lowrie (http://soxprospects.com/players/lowrie-jed.htm)SS, Pawtucket


http://soxprospects.com/50/bowden.michael.jpg (http://soxprospects.com/players/bowden-michael.htm)
Michael Bowden (http://soxprospects.com/players/bowden-michael.htm)
SP, Portland

we shall see

If this is true the Twins are getting hosed.

spawn
11-29-2007, 04:36 PM
If this is true the Twins are getting hosed.
What are you talking about? They'll get Coco Crisp.

gogosox16
11-29-2007, 04:36 PM
Bowden will be a good 3-4 in rotation in about 2 years...he will come back to illinois and turn out to be a sox killer pitching wise.

Fenway
11-29-2007, 04:38 PM
If this is true the Twins are getting hosed.

Not losing Elsbury or Bucholz????? That would be unbelivable.

Sockinchisox
11-29-2007, 04:38 PM
Not only do the Twins get prospects but they take away Crisp from us now.

Jerry Owens come on down.

:whiner:

nccwsfan
11-29-2007, 04:39 PM
If this becomes official that is amazing. The best LHP in the game, the best RHP in the game, Dice-K....all under the age of 30, all potentially locked up by the Red Sox for the next four seasons.

The White Sox and the American League will have their work cut out for them for the foreseeable future.

Domeshot17
11-29-2007, 04:39 PM
I hope The Red Sox lubed up before those negotiations

what a brutal terrible deal. Am I the only one who just doesn't get the Lester love fest. I respect the guy for beating cancer and hes a great story, but is he really THAT good of a pitcher? I just do not see it.

drewcifer
11-29-2007, 04:39 PM
If this is true the Twins are getting hosed.

Couldn't agree more.

ilsox7
11-29-2007, 04:39 PM
Not losing Elsbury or Bucholz????? That would be unbelivable.

Agreed. I find it hard to believe another team didn't step in and top the offer. Hopefully Johan becomes a horribly ineffective pitcher for the rest of his career.

MUsoxfan
11-29-2007, 04:39 PM
Not a very brilliant move on the Twins end.

PalehosePlanet
11-29-2007, 04:41 PM
If this is true the Twins are getting hosed.

You got that right. No Ellsbury? No Bucholz? I can't believe that The Yankees couldn't match this.

Fenway
11-29-2007, 04:42 PM
Not a very brilliant move on the Twins end.

There almost HAS to be cash invoved if this is true

You knew something was up when the buzz was coming from Minneapolis all day and not Boston

munchman33
11-29-2007, 04:43 PM
Not losing Elsbury or Bucholz????? That would be unbelivable.

You're right. I simply don't believe it. There's no way if a deal's been struck that those are the particulars.

asindc
11-29-2007, 04:44 PM
I'll believe this when/if either team announces it, not a second before then. If this is how the Twins are going to wheel and deal this offseason, we have nothing to worry about from them in the short term.

Fenway
11-29-2007, 04:45 PM
You're right. I simply don't believe it. There's no way if a deal's been struck that those are the particulars.

Now Buster Olney is on it at ESPN.com (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3133598)

Too much buzz now...something is up

Sockinchisox
11-29-2007, 04:46 PM
FWIW, Ian Browne the Red Sox beat reporter for MLB.com said the deal is not at all done.

Fenway
11-29-2007, 04:51 PM
FWIW, Ian Browne the Red Sox beat reporter for MLB.com said the deal is not at all done.

When Ian breaks a story it will be the first time

balke
11-29-2007, 04:54 PM
Selig will veto that crap in a heartbeat.

champagne030
11-29-2007, 04:56 PM
Now Buster Olney is on it at ESPN.com (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3133598)

Too much buzz now...something is up

Yeah, something is up. The Twins GM is under the influence of a narcotic or the reports of the particulars are incorrect.

cleanwsox
11-29-2007, 04:56 PM
I'm really starting to hate this Minnesota-Boston trade crap.

Although I do have a laugh hearing about all the stars performing well over that started here in MN. Garnett, Ortiz, R. Moss,.... Santana next? Yikes.

mjmcend
11-29-2007, 04:57 PM
Selig will veto that crap in a heartbeat.

He doesn't get a say unless there is over $1 million changing hands.

And has he ever vetoed a deal?

dickallen15
11-29-2007, 04:58 PM
I wonder what the hurry is with the Twins. They should set up shop at the winter meetings and let the bidding war begin. I think they may be leaking this to get the Yankees panicking.

balke
11-29-2007, 04:58 PM
He doesn't get a say unless there is over $1 million changing hands.

And has he ever vetoed a deal?

I believe he stood against a deal for Randy Johnson to the Sox. He also blocked Jacque Jones being dealt last season.

WhiteSox5187
11-29-2007, 05:00 PM
This would be a very bad deal for the Twins if it went down. We'll see...

ilsox7
11-29-2007, 05:01 PM
He also blocked Jacque Jones being dealt last season.

He did? I do not remember hearing that at all.

mjmcend
11-29-2007, 05:03 PM
I believe he stood against a deal for Randy Johnson to the Sox. He also blocked Jacque Jones being dealt last season.

Forgot about the Jones trade and I don't remember the Johnson trade. The reason for blocking the Jones trade was the ownership situation for the Cubs. He didn't want the new owners owing money to a player not on the team anymore. I don't see any parallels to this deal.

ilsox7
11-29-2007, 05:06 PM
Forgot about the Jones trade and I don't remember the Johnson trade. The reason for blocking the Jones trade was the ownership situation for the Cubs. He didn't want the new owners owing money to a player not on the team anymore. I don't see any parallels to this deal.

I thought it was the higher-ups at the Cubs that blocked it for that reason.

BadBobbyJenks
11-29-2007, 05:07 PM
He doesn't get a say unless there is over $1 million changing hands.

And has he ever vetoed a deal?


what a joke, thats not a vetoable deal.
I do think the twins would be making a mistake though.

oeo
11-29-2007, 05:07 PM
The Twins getting hosed? By Theo Epstein of all people? :lol:

We've all seen the Boston media come up with baseless rumors before. Matt Garza brought back a better package. Boston = dreaming. Any deal from the Red Sox will most certainly include Clay Buccholz or Jacoby Ellsbury.

dickallen15
11-29-2007, 05:16 PM
He did? I do not remember hearing that at all.

He did because he didn't want the Cubs to be picking up some debt before they were sold.

oeo
11-29-2007, 05:17 PM
When Ian breaks a story it will be the first time

Well, how about the crap you're posting? How does the best pitcher in the game today not bring back any stud. None of those four guys are complete studs. Good players, sure; but none of them are centerpieces. The Red Sox will probably need to add a centerpiece to that deal (Ellsbury or Buccholz).

So here's what I'm thinking: the Red Sox are close, but they're not willing to give up Ellsbury or Buccholz. If they put one of the two in the deal, it would be finished (of course one of the players in this current 'deal' would be removed depending on which guy they add), but they don't want to do it. Therefore the deal will never come to fruition.

I think the Twins probably want Buccholz, Crisp, Bowden, and Lowrie; or Ellsbury, Lester, Bowden, and Lowrie.

balke
11-29-2007, 05:19 PM
If the Red Sox get to start the season with Santana and Beckett in the same rotation, that's a ton of egg on the face of New York.

santo=dorf
11-29-2007, 05:20 PM
Where's Otis with the scoop?

chisoxmike
11-29-2007, 05:25 PM
Where's Otis with the scoop?

:rolling:

His source should be all over this. After all, this guy is dead on with White Sox deals, where is he when they involve his club the Red Sox?

Jerko
11-29-2007, 05:27 PM
:rolling:

His source should be all over this. After all, this guy is dead on with White Sox deals, where is he when they involve his club the Red Sox?




Otis is probably the guy who leaked the rumor to WBZ4 in the first place.

dickallen15
11-29-2007, 05:36 PM
Where's Otis with the scoop?
His mom probably cut him off the computer for a couple of days.

spiffie
11-29-2007, 05:36 PM
Agreed. I find it hard to believe another team didn't step in and top the offer. Hopefully Johan becomes a horribly ineffective pitcher for the rest of his career.
Its possible Santana told the Twins it was the Red Sox or nowhere, and the Twins are simply getting the best package they can without having a ton of leverage.

DumpJerry
11-29-2007, 05:41 PM
Foxsports, CBS Sportsline and ESPN's websites, this is all still speculative.

Lip Man 1
11-29-2007, 05:45 PM
Assuming this is true this is another example of how money talks. The Twins were limited in the teams they could possibly trade Santana to because with his free agent status approaching, most clubs wouldn't make a deal for a 'one year rental.'

Only a handful of clubs could make a deal and have a decent shot to sign him to an extended contract. The Twins I'm assuming took the best offer they could from the three or four teams that had a realistic shot of getting him.

Boston is one of those teams with money to burn.

The rich get richer while everyone else goes right down the toilet.

Nice.

:rolleyes:

I do find it interesting though how the Twins could pick up two reasonably productive outfielders in a 24 hour time period while the Sox.....

Lip

AZChiSoxFan
11-29-2007, 05:47 PM
The Red Sox may be the frontrunners for Minnesota ace Johan Santana, according to Charlie Walters of the St. Paul Pioneer Press: (http://www.twincities.com/walters)

"The Twins would receive four players for the Twins' two-time Cy Young Award winner, including center fielder Coco Crisp, 28. Others would be shortstop prospect Jed Lowrie, 23; left-handed pitcher Jon Lester, 23; and right-handed pitcher Justin Masterson, 22. Before a deal could be made, the Red Sox would have to have time to negotiate a contract extension with Santana, 28, who can become a free agent after next season and could have a market value as high as $150 million over six years."


If this is all the Red Sox have to give up to get Santana, I will be in the bathroom puking my guts out. Theo ought to try a little harder and just get the Twins to throw in Mauer and Morneau just for good measure.

AZChiSoxFan
11-29-2007, 05:50 PM
Dan Roche of WBZ-TV says the deal is done and will be announced later this evening

Sean McAdam on WEEI saying he is hearing the same thing except it will not be announced until Santana is locked up and the Red Sox would get 72 hours to do so.

Boston sends Coco Crisp, Jon Lester, Michael Bowden and Jed Lowrie to the Twins.

Jed Lowrie (http://soxprospects.com/players/lowrie-jed.htm)SS, Pawtucket


http://soxprospects.com/50/bowden.michael.jpg (http://soxprospects.com/players/bowden-michael.htm)
Michael Bowden (http://soxprospects.com/players/bowden-michael.htm)
SP, Portland

we shall see

What, Theo couldn't get them to throw in Mauer as well?? What a joke!!

Ma-Gaga, I'm curious to get your thoughts on this.

AZChiSoxFan
11-29-2007, 05:51 PM
[quote=Domeshot17;1733230]I hope The Red Sox lubed up before those negotiations

quote]


:rolling:

Fenway
11-29-2007, 05:53 PM
Its possible Santana told the Twins it was the Red Sox or nowhere, and the Twins are simply getting the best package they can without having a ton of leverage.

Gammons says it is possible Santana vetoed New York and he is very close to Ortiz.

doublem23
11-29-2007, 05:56 PM
I know everyone wants to believe that the Twins are getting fleeced here, but you have to put yourself in their shoes, too. Unless they know for certain that they can sign Johan to a long-term extension, then their options are to either deal him for the best possible offer or let him walk in free agency and possibly receive compensatory picks in next year's draft (I think, or did that old rule go away in the new CBA?). Meanwhile, the Red Sox and Yankees are 2 of only a handful of teams that can honestly afford to get in on the Johan Santana extravaganza if he hits the market next year, so there isn't much incentive for them to really offer their absolute best prospects if they're willing to wait one more year.

I rarely side with owners, but the financial state of baseball really needs to be fixed. The revenue of the Yankees and Red Sox simply dwarfs the rest of the league to the point where it is harmful to the sport to simply allow 2 teams to just buy the best players and let everyone else perpetually rebuild. I don't know if the answer is a salary cap or dramatically increased revenue sharing (neither option would be well received), but the current economic situation in the game is simply too detrimental to the competitive balance, and long-term success of the sport. Really, the only hope that the other 25 teams in the league have is that the baseball play-offs are such a crapshoot, that if you can make the post-season you still have a good chance of winning the World Series, anyway (the Orioles, Blue Jays, and Rays are totally screwed, however, by playing in the AL East because it will take a complete fluke season for one of them to actually compete with the two megateams over a 162-game schedule).

AZChiSoxFan
11-29-2007, 05:56 PM
I do find it interesting though how the Twins could pick up two reasonably productive outfielders in a 24 hour time period while the Sox.....

Lip

Totally agree. I'm getting frustrated. For those that will respond by saying, "you do know that it's Nov 29" I have a feeling you won't be using that line anymore when it's March 29 and we still have nobody legit in CF.

AzureJazzMan
11-29-2007, 05:57 PM
Is it possible, that the reason for not announcing it yet would be due to the "re-negotiation window". If the Red Sox can't get Santana to sign a long term deal, the Twins will receive the players mentioned previously. But, if Santana does sign, that the Twins will also receive Elsbury or Bucholz? I would think this is definitely a possible scenario.

balke
11-29-2007, 05:58 PM
Totally agree. I'm getting frustrated. For those that will respond by saying, "you do know that it's Nov 29" I have a feeling you won't be using that line anymore when it's March 29 and we still have nobody legit in CF.

DOOOOOMED


We can worry about that after Dec 29, Jan 29th, and Feb. 29th

Pasqua's Mailman
11-29-2007, 05:58 PM
I do find it interesting though how the Twins could pick up two reasonably productive outfielders in a 24 hour time period while the Sox.....

Yeah, All they had to do was trade their best pitching prospect, their starting shortstop and one of the best (if not the best) starting pitchers in baseball...

santo=dorf
11-29-2007, 05:58 PM
He did? I do not remember hearing that at all.
I recall Hendry coming out saying it wasn't true.

santo=dorf
11-29-2007, 06:00 PM
DOOOOOMED


We can worry about that after Dec 29, Jan 29th, and Feb. 29th
..and then June 29th, July 29th, August 29th, and September 29th it'll all just be considered "20/20 Hindsight," right?

santo=dorf
11-29-2007, 06:03 PM
Charlie Walters is the same clueless jackass who said the Sox were sick of Pierzynksi's attitude and were looking to trade him. He made that claim BEFORE THE 2005 SEASON.:rolleyes:

Hey Charlie, I e-mailed you questioning your sources on that one, and the results show you're a complete fool.

balke
11-29-2007, 06:06 PM
I recall Hendry coming out saying it wasn't true.

I'm sure Hendry is a reliable source.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/07/01/2007-07-01_pity_the_pinstripes.html

There's what a New York Daily sportswriter reported about it, as well as many others.

"According to various baseball sources, it was Bud Selig who kiboshed that trade of Jacque Jones from the Cubs to the Marlins last week - and not a matter of the Cubs simply having second thoughts. Seems Selig deemed the money the Cubs were to absorb on Jones' contract as excessive."

balke
11-29-2007, 06:06 PM
..and then June 29th, July 29th, August 29th, and September 29th it'll all just be considered "20/20 Hindsight," right?

Well crying all winter about having a CFer in your sight as a fan is probably going to make it happen a lot faster, so everybody keep it up! ITS NOT ANNOYING AT ALL!

santo=dorf
11-29-2007, 06:11 PM
I'm sure Hendry is a reliable source.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/07/01/2007-07-01_pity_the_pinstripes.html

There's what a New York Daily sportswriter reported about it, as well as many others.

"According to various baseball sources, it was Bud Selig who kiboshed that trade of Jacque Jones from the Cubs to the Marlins last week - and not a matter of the Cubs simply having second thoughts. Seems Selig deemed the money the Cubs were to absorb on Jones' contract as excessive."
Why wouldn't he be? He's the closest the situation. Are you really going to take the word of a New York tabloid on a trade between Chicago and Florida teams?

Lip Man 1
11-29-2007, 06:36 PM
Pasqua:

Garza is a prospect. He may or may not do well, it's a gamble. Substitute Gonzales.

Bartlett is an average player... nothing great. Substitute Uribe.

Granted the Sox have nothing close to offer like Santana but the point is still valid that on paper the Sox could have put together just as 'nice' a package to get Young or Crawford.

I know it's early and I'm hoping Kenny will kick it into gear. There are a LOT of holes and issues on this club. If he's serious about "contending" in 2008 and he was quoted directly on this, and not paying it 'Lip Service...' (no pun intended) then the major areas of need must be improved.

It just appears right now that for whatever reason or reasons Kenny is getting beaten to the punch on things. Which is surprising since it's he who has the reputation of striking first / gambling.

Lip

mjmcend
11-29-2007, 06:46 PM
Pasqua:

Garza is a prospect. He may or may not do well, it's a gamble. Substitute Gonzales.

Bartlett is an average player... nothing great. Substitute Uribe.

Granted the Sox have nothing close to offer like Santana but the point is still valid that on paper the Sox could have put together just as 'nice' a package to get Young.

I know it's early and I'm hoping Kenny will kick it into gear. There are a LOT of holes and issues on this club. If he's serious about "contending" in 2008 and he was quoted directly on this, and not paying it 'Lip Service...' (no pun intended) then the major areas of need must be improved.

Lip

Bartlett is an average player but Uribe is an awful player.

Bartlett's three year #'s: .274/.343/.366
He can steal a couple of bases and only has 3 years of service time and therefore is only owed slighly above the minimum.

Uribe #'s: .240/.281/.415 and he is only signed for one more year at $4.5 million.

A package of Gio and Uribe is not nearly as good as Garza and Bartlett.

Jjav829
11-29-2007, 06:47 PM
Where's Otis with the scoop?

:rolling:

His source should be all over this. After all, this guy is dead on with White Sox deals, where is he when they involve his club the Red Sox?




Otis is probably the guy who leaked the rumor to WBZ4 in the first place.

You guys have it all wrong. The deal isn't going to happen. That's why otis hasn't posted. So watch for this deal not to happen and you'll know that otis is right once again!

sullythered
11-29-2007, 06:51 PM
Pasqua:

Garza is a prospect. He may or may not do well, it's a gamble. Substitute Gonzales.

Garza had a 3.69 ERA in eighty-plus major league innings last season. I like Gio, but Garza is more of a proven commodity.

ViPeRx007
11-29-2007, 06:53 PM
OH NO!!!

I guess we won't be getting Crisp now.

Woofer
11-29-2007, 07:01 PM
I personally love the idea of this deal. It will basically get Santana out of our hair. The Sox seem to face him, what 5-6 times a year? These games are always losses too. We are better off facing whoever else the Twins throw at us, maybe we see a few more wins for the next few years. :smile:

WhiteSox5187
11-29-2007, 07:07 PM
OH NO!!!

I guess we won't be getting Crisp now.
At first I was thinking "Oh Good..." but then I realized this probably means Jerry Owens in CF again next year and batting leadoff. KW said today "Oh we have options, we have Owens, Sweeney and Anderson..." Those ARE options, but they certainly aren't GOOD options if we intend to contend.

mjmcend
11-29-2007, 07:13 PM
I personally love the idea of this deal. It will basically get Santana out of our hair. The Sox seem to face him, what 5-6 times a year? These games are always losses too. We are better off facing whoever else the Twins throw at us, maybe we see a few more wins for the next few years. :smile:

Except there is no way the Twins could afford to keep him beyond next year. If this all they end up getting for Santana, I would be ecstatic. Those are some good pieces, but no potential stars.

BadBobbyJenks
11-29-2007, 07:19 PM
Pasqua:

Garza is a prospect. He may or may not do well, it's a gamble. Substitute Gonzales.

Bartlett is an average player... nothing great. Substitute Uribe.

Granted the Sox have nothing close to offer like Santana but the point is still valid that on paper the Sox could have put together just as 'nice' a package to get Young or Crawford.

I know it's early and I'm hoping Kenny will kick it into gear. There are a LOT of holes and issues on this club. If he's serious about "contending" in 2008 and he was quoted directly on this, and not paying it 'Lip Service...' (no pun intended) then the major areas of need must be improved.

It just appears right now that for whatever reason or reasons Kenny is getting beaten to the punch on things. Which is surprising since it's he who has the reputation of striking first / gambling.

Lip



Garza > Gio
Hes actually proven he can pitch in the majors. Not even a comparison

Lip Man 1
11-29-2007, 07:27 PM
Folks:

I think some are getting hung up on 'specifics' at the expense of missing the point.

The poster said Garza was Minnesota's top prospect...OK that means there is still doubt about his long term success. If pitching eighty innings in the big leagues qualifies you as 'experienced,' or 'successful,' then I guess he is.

But my point was you could substitute any name you wish...Fields, Egbert, Gio whomever and come up with a package at least as good as the one Minnesota made.

Mind you I'm not saying Kenny is wrong, I am saying I'm surprised others are beating him to punches that I'm sure he's considered.

Again we'll have to wait and see but Kenny said the Sox are going to "contend" (direct quote) in 2008. Fine...for that to happen a LOT more work needs to be done.

We'll see if in fact that takes place before spring training opens or if the bulk of a team that dropped 90 games and looked lifeless for long stretches at a time will basically be coming back en masse.

Lip

btrain929
11-29-2007, 07:35 PM
Folks:

I think some are getting hung up on 'specifics' at the expense of missing the point.

The poster said Garza was Minnesota's top prospect...OK that means there is still doubt about his long term success. If pitching eighty innings in the big leagues qualifies you as 'experienced,' or 'successful,' then I guess he is.

But my point was you could substitute any name you wish...Fields, Egbert, Gio whomever and come up with a package at least as good as the one Minnesota made.

Mind you I'm not saying Kenny is wrong, I am saying I'm surprised others are beating him to punches that I'm sure he's considered.

Again we'll have to wait and see but Kenny said the Sox are going to "contend" (direct quote) in 2008. Fine...for that to happen a LOT more work needs to be done.

We'll see if in fact that takes place before spring training opens or if the bulk of a team that dropped 90 games and looked lifeless for long stretches at a time will basically be coming back en masse.

Lip

Players that were given the boot from the 90 loss team:
Bukvich
Erstad
Myers
Pods
Cintron
Garland

New Players Acquired:
Cabrera (SS, which we desperately needed)
Linebrink (bullpen veteran, which we desperately needed)

The way some of these posters are reacting, is like we've been sitting back on our hands the entire offseason ala Cardinals or Pirates. We got considerably better when we got rid of all those players above (addition by subtraction), let alone adding those 2 players. I like what we've done so far, and I am optimistic that a few more changes will be occuring in the near future....ones that will benefit us in '08 and beyond.

KyWhiSoxFan
11-29-2007, 07:40 PM
If the Twinkies only get back Coco and Lester and prospects from the Red Sox for Santana, that means they will have traded Santana and Garza for Lester as far as the starting rotation is concerned. The trades may help their hitting, but their pitching goes down several notches. If they have some other guys coming up who can step in, they may be okay. Otherwise, they are going to have to be a team that tries to outslug you next year.

The Twinkies are put in a position where they will not get as much as they may want because everyone knows they cannot resign Santana. That is going to hurt their bargaining position.

Still, The Sox trade Garland and all we get back is a shortstop (and we already had one). When you can trade a starter like Santana and get back four pieces, it really helps your team longterm to stay competitive. In that regard, I'm envious of what they are able to do with their homegrown talent in terms of being able to get so much in return.

Lip Man 1
11-29-2007, 07:47 PM
Btrain:

The names you mentioned with the exception of Garland are MINOR moves. None of them, again with the exception of Garland, were anything close to significant contributors in 2007.

The two acquistions Cabrerra and Linebrink are good starts, in fact I'll go so far as to say very good, however much, MUCH more works remains to be done.

*The back end of the starting rotation is thin.
*The bullpen is still (in my opinion) at least another quality arm short.
*The Sox have no reliable back up middle infielder (especially if they trade
Uribe---and please don't even think Andy Gonzales.)
*They need 2/3rd's of a starting outfield.
*They still need speed and a lead off hitter (which could be part of the
outfield acquisitions I grant you...)

In other words as stated, there's a LOT more significant work to be done for this team to "contend" (in Kenny's own words) in 2008 in the toughest division in the toughest league in baseball. "Addition by subtraction" as you put it, is useless if you have little or nothing to replace or certainly surpass, even what you subtracted isn't it?

I confess I get very nervous when I hear Kenny make comments like yesterday (as reported) in the newspapers about having "options" named Anderson, Owens and Sweeney.

That's a far cry from what I was hearing just a few weeks ago about "big fish" (direct quote of Kenny's) and media reports surrounding Hunter.

My impression was 'he's backtracking,' 'trying to lower expectations' now.

We'll see how this plays out.

Lip

oeo
11-29-2007, 07:50 PM
The poster said Garza was Minnesota's top prospect...OK that means there is still doubt about his long term success. If pitching eighty innings in the big leagues qualifies you as 'experienced,' or 'successful,' then I guess he is.

And I actually think the Twins dealt him for a reason (besides acquiring Young). I don't think Garza was their top prospect. I think they know something that we don't. They usually don't trade away spectacular talent. I think he was hyped up and traded when his value was highest (kind of like us with McCarthy).

Fenway
11-29-2007, 08:12 PM
Why wouldn't he be? He's the closest the situation. Are you really going to take the word of a New York tabloid on a trade between Chicago and Florida teams?

Actually the Daily News is the best source of MLB news in the US ( The Post is garbage )

WBZ's source I am told is the sports director of WCCO in Minneapolis.

Not surprising as most of WCCO's news team has been transfered to Boston by CBS in recent months ( GM, news director and the best weatherman Boston has ever seen Ken Barlow )

They sticking with the story for now.

Tragg
11-29-2007, 09:17 PM
Not one top prosepct.
Not one.

Fenway
11-29-2007, 10:12 PM
Gammons is saying Anaheim has an offer on the table that would involve Garland going to the Twins

There's a lot of silence coming from Yawkey Way, always an indication something big is in the works.

Sockinchisox
11-29-2007, 10:18 PM
Gammons is saying Anaheim has an offer on the table that would involve Garland going to the Twins

There's a lot of silence coming from Yawkey Way, always an indication something big is in the works.

Poor Gar, hasn't even thrown a pitch in an Angels uni and already the subject of trade rumors.

WhiteSox5187
11-29-2007, 10:32 PM
Gammons is saying Anaheim has an offer on the table that would involve Garland going to the Twins

There's a lot of silence coming from Yawkey Way, always an indication something big is in the works.
So, obviously there woudl be a lot of prospects in that deal, but the biggest points would be Garland for Santana??

Dammit Kenny, why didn't you think of that?!?!

TheOldRoman
11-29-2007, 10:40 PM
So, obviously there woudl be a lot of prospects in that deal, but the biggest points would be Garland for Santana??

Dammit Kenny, why didn't you think of that?!?!See, that is the beauty. After the Angels get Johan, they will trade him to the Sox for Orlando Cabrera. It's genius.

btrain929
11-29-2007, 10:44 PM
Btrain:

The names you mentioned with the exception of Garland are MINOR moves. None of them, again with the exception of Garland, were anything close to significant contributors in 2007.

The two acquistions Cabrerra and Linebrink are good starts, in fact I'll go so far as to say very good, however much, MUCH more works remains to be done.

*The back end of the starting rotation is thin.
*The bullpen is still (in my opinion) at least another quality arm short.
*The Sox have no reliable back up middle infielder (especially if they trade
Uribe---and please don't even think Andy Gonzales.)
*They need 2/3rd's of a starting outfield.
*They still need speed and a lead off hitter (which could be part of the
outfield acquisitions I grant you...)

In other words as stated, there's a LOT more significant work to be done for this team to "contend" (in Kenny's own words) in 2008 in the toughest division in the toughest league in baseball. "Addition by subtraction" as you put it, is useless if you have little or nothing to replace or certainly surpass, even what you subtracted isn't it?

I confess I get very nervous when I hear Kenny make comments like yesterday (as reported) in the newspapers about having "options" named Anderson, Owens and Sweeney.

That's a far cry from what I was hearing just a few weeks ago about "big fish" (direct quote of Kenny's) and media reports surrounding Hunter.

My impression was 'he's backtracking,' 'trying to lower expectations' now.

We'll see how this plays out.

Lip

I'll agree with you that our "options" for CF, I hope, are not SERIOUS options for our major league squad, especially after all the big fish hype. And you're correct that upgrading the OF will/should improve the team speed/leadoff position.

But i'd put the backup middle infielder on the backburner for now. I doubt that will play a huge role in the success or failure of our team as a whole. I'd also put the backend of our rotation on the backburner. I'm confident with our 1-4 (Contreras over his personal problems, Danks knowing what it takes to go a full year in the bigs), and with Floyd out of options, as well as his very strong showing the past few months of the season, we might as well see if he can be a serviceable starter....especially since HE was the main piece of the Garcia trade according to KW.

For the bullpen, that's gonna come down to whether or not KW is going to try any of the young arms in there (Russell, Day, etc) or feels like trying the other guys to see if they bounce back (Macdougal, Aardsma). I agree I'd like to see a veteran lefty (Brian Fuentes) acquired somehow.

For me personally, I think the next two moves we absolutely need to make is for a CF'er and a bullpen arm. I'd be content with Owens in LF. Whether he leads off or bats 9th will depend on the type of CF'er we acquire.

We shall see though....

FedEx227
11-29-2007, 10:48 PM
In other words as stated, there's a LOT more significant work to be done for this team to "contend" (in Kenny's own words) in 2008 in the toughest division in the toughest league in baseball. "Addition by subtraction" as you put it, is useless if you have little or nothing to replace or certainly surpass, even what you subtracted isn't it?

I confess I get very nervous when I hear Kenny make comments like yesterday (as reported) in the newspapers about having "options" named Anderson, Owens and Sweeney.

That's a far cry from what I was hearing just a few weeks ago about "big fish" (direct quote of Kenny's) and media reports surrounding Hunter.

My impression was 'he's backtracking,' 'trying to lower expectations' now.

We'll see how this plays out.

Lip

That's one thing that I just can't stand about Kenny. I love the guy to death and think he's a great GM, but his pie in the sky dreams do get irritating, especially when he gets beaten and starts to back-track and go back from what he original said.

As I said in another post... this team is not a contender. By absolutely no means, yes the offseason isn't over, but we have way too many holes that can't possibly be filled in just one offseason.

Lip Man 1
11-29-2007, 11:14 PM
Btrain:

My listings weren't in any particular order just to be clear, I was just looking at the areas that I think need to be improved and the back up middle infielder is one of them.

FedEx:

I must confess I'm beginning to think along your lines. The financial realities make it virtually impossible to 'solve' everything this off season. I think Kenny will do the best he can, 'hope' (God how I hate that word) for the best and either bring more pieces in at the trade deadline (if things are going reasonably well) or start a massive dump (if they aren't.)
---
One other thing which really surprised me. Based on newspaper accounts the Sox have THREE pitchers who are out of options, Aardsma, Floyd and Massett. I'm just really surprised Kenny would have acquired so many guys near the end of that condition. It really limits what you can do as a G.M. He's now in a position where he either keeps them or the big league roster (gulp) or he has to deal them because if he sends them down someone will claim them and (I think) he gets nothing.

Another facet to a tough situation.

Lip

soxinem1
11-29-2007, 11:19 PM
Not a very brilliant move on the Twins end.

Well, maybe, maybe not.

Have they been hosed on any major trade or FA departure since Rod Carew or Lyman Bostock in the 70's?

If this goes through, BOS is handcuffed to Santana to the tune of $20-25 million per year for a LONG time. And they have a pretty veteran roster too.

Of course, the main difference is that they have thrown a rookie in as a regular at least once a year for a long time.

Say what you want about Theo and Francona, they do know how to break the young players into the line up and pitching staff......

Lip Man 1
11-29-2007, 11:25 PM
And like with the Yankees and Mets they have the mind set that nothing else matters but trying to win at all costs.

If Santana blows up they'll just spend to get someone else.

Must be nice.

Lip

oeo
11-29-2007, 11:32 PM
Gammons is saying Anaheim has an offer on the table that would involve Garland going to the Twins

There's a lot of silence coming from Yawkey Way, always an indication something big is in the works.

Why would the Twins want a guy that will be overpriced at the end of the season? :?:

Sorry Gammons, but that doesn't make an ounce of sense.

oeo
11-29-2007, 11:36 PM
Say what you want about Theo and Francona, they do know how to break the young players into the line up and pitching staff......

What do you mean? How they pay up the ass for veterans, have no choice but to play them, and eventually when their contracts are up, they can insert a young guy?

The Yankees do the same thing. Melky Cabrera probably could have been starting two years ago, but there was no room for him. That's not strategy, that's called having money and lots of it.

DSpivack
11-29-2007, 11:42 PM
And like with the Yankees and Mets they have the mind set that nothing else matters but trying to win at all costs.

If Santana blows up they'll just spend to get someone else.

Must be nice.

Lip

I really don't want MLB to become the Premier League, with four big teams able to outspend everyone else, and the top teams merely trading places at the end of the season standings with one another. That said, while the Red Sox have won twice in the last four seasons, no other media-crazy teams have.

FarWestChicago
11-29-2007, 11:42 PM
And like with the Yankees and Mets they have the mind set that nothing else matters but trying to win at all costs.

If Santana blows up they'll just spend to get someone else.

Must be nice.

LipC'mon Lip, you're a geezer. Surely you know things that come easy are never as good as things that take some effort. Lay off the incessant jealousy of the rich teams. The Sox lightning in a bottle 2005 is so much better than buying a title year in and year out. A blowhard can brag about "winning" while buying the yearly title. It can only effect you if you choose to let it. I don't get wound up about all this Boston stuff like so many around here. Big deal. They bought a title. Who cares? Show me a team that earned it. That I'll respect and care about. Your obsession with the rich teams makes you miserable because you choose to let it make you miserable. Don't be jealous, don't hate; just don't care. Damn, there was a bad sci fi/fantasy movie (I think it was Merlin) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0130414/) that ended that way. Evil triumphed, but nobody cared. And Evil faded away. :D:

soxinem1
11-29-2007, 11:56 PM
What do you mean? How they pay up the ass for veterans, have no choice but to play them, and eventually when their contracts are up, they can insert a young guy?

The Yankees do the same thing. Melky Cabrera probably could have been starting two years ago, but there was no room for him. That's not strategy, that's called having money and lots of it.

Really? Papelbon, Pedroia, Youkilis, DelCarmen, Okajima, Lester, Gabbard,(now with TEX), Matsuzaka, to name a few, are recent young or rookie players worked into the team. And that is just in the last few seasons.

Sure, they have to buy players to compete with the NYY, but unlike that Yanks, how often do you hear of a player languishing in BOS minor league system and not getting a shot.

I think the last guy I can recall fitting that description to become a big-time star was Jeff Bagwell, and that was some time ago.

Fenway
11-30-2007, 12:01 AM
Why would the Twins want a guy that will be overpriced at the end of the season? :?:

Sorry Gammons, but that doesn't make an ounce of sense.

Twins could move him at the break for even more prospects. They are gearing for the new ballpark not for 2008.

Lip in a perfect world there WOULD be a salary cap in baseball but it isn't going to happen.

Boston is scary as they are meeting payroll just from ticket revenue at Fenway (150 M ) which means they are making big bucks from adverising, NESN , NASCAR and who knows what else.

Plus to keep selling the tickets at insane prices they have to win or come close every year.

Fans of the other 28 teams ***** about Boston and the Yankees but how to you FIX the problem?

jabrch
11-30-2007, 12:09 AM
I believe he stood against a deal for Randy Johnson to the Sox. He also blocked Jacque Jones being dealt last season.

He didn't stop Jones - the Cubs refused to do the deal and pay that salary.

jabrch
11-30-2007, 12:11 AM
If this is the deal, I'll be THRILLED.

Minny loses - HUGE

ilsox7
11-30-2007, 12:14 AM
He didn't stop Jones - the Cubs refused to do the deal and pay that salary.

That's what I thought. This is the first I've heard of Bud blocking it.

TheOldRoman
11-30-2007, 12:32 AM
If this is the deal, I'll be THRILLED.

Minny loses - HUGEI wouldn't be thrilled because the Red Sox would only do this if they can sign him to an immediate extension. It won't be fun playing in the AL the next four years. They Yankees always added the top piece (at the time) - HGHambi, Matsui, A-Rod, Damon, and everyone cowered. They ended up losing in the playoffs every year, but their pitching wasn't even close to as good as Boston's would be, at least at the top two.

The ideal situation for me would be for the Twins to decide they are going to make a run this year. They could sign Rondell White again (:lol:) along with Ruben Sierra, Tony Fernandez and every other 40+ year old former power hitter they can find. ****, get Chili Davis out of retirement. I also hope they keep Santana and Nathan, have a 5 game lead at the trade deadline, and then collapse and finish 15 games back, getting nothing for Santana or Nathan. Santana could then sign with any NL team he wants, outside of Chicago. That scenario would thrill me.

WhiteSox5187
11-30-2007, 12:37 AM
See, that is the beauty. After the Angels get Johan, they will trade him to the Sox for Orlando Cabrera. It's genius.
Kenny, you genius!

oeo
11-30-2007, 12:38 AM
Twins could move him at the break for even more prospects. They are gearing for the new ballpark not for 2008.

That still makes no sense. Garland won't bring back much in terms of a half-year rental. I doubt that's their plan.

Sounds like dumb speculation on Gammons' part to me.

And I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it's just coincidence that their ballpark is coming and they're acquiring a lot of youth. It just so happens that they're about to lose guys to free agency that are due a lot of money, so they're selling while they can...it's what they always do; nothing new.

BadBobbyJenks
11-30-2007, 07:36 AM
Folks:

I think some are getting hung up on 'specifics' at the expense of missing the point.

The poster said Garza was Minnesota's top prospect...OK that means there is still doubt about his long term success. If pitching eighty innings in the big leagues qualifies you as 'experienced,' or 'successful,' then I guess he is.

Lip

I dont think anyone is saying garza is "experienced" but saying we could have landed delmon for gio is not accurate.

I hate how every deal that gets made, Sox fans think Kenny surely could have made a better deal

balke
11-30-2007, 07:52 AM
He didn't stop Jones - the Cubs refused to do the deal and pay that salary.

All I know is that I was able to produce a source for my information, and nobody else has produced a source for yours.

kraut83
11-30-2007, 09:03 AM
God, I really wish the Dodgers or Mets would come in with a deal just so Johan would be out of the AL.

spiffie
11-30-2007, 09:13 AM
C'mon Lip, you're a geezer. Surely you know things that come easy are never as good as things that take some effort. Lay off the incessant jealousy of the rich teams. The Sox lightning in a bottle 2005 is so much better than buying a title year in and year out. A blowhard can brag about "winning" while buying the yearly title. It can only effect you if you choose to let it. I don't get wound up about all this Boston stuff like so many around here. Big deal. They bought a title. Who cares? Show me a team that earned it. That I'll respect and care about. Your obsession with the rich teams makes you miserable because you choose to let it make you miserable. Don't be jealous, don't hate; just don't care. Damn, there was a bad sci fi/fantasy movie (I think it was Merlin) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0130414/) that ended that way. Evil triumphed, but nobody cared. And Evil faded away. :D:
Actually, I respect what Boston did last year, as yes, they spent a lot of money, but they spent pretty wisely outside of the terrible JD Drew contract. Yes, Matsuzaka was overpaid in any objective sense of the word, but for their budget it made more sense to solidify the rotation even at a very high cost. They built a farm system I would kill to see in our organization, made some very nice small acquisitions (Okajima comes to mind), and were willing and able to let the young kids play a major part. Its hard for me to say they simply bought it when they had so many of their own products making contributions (Papelbon, Ellsbury, Youkillis, Pedroia, Buchholz, Lester, etc.). It isn't like the Yankee teams of a few years ago where seemingly no one except Jeter and Rivera came up through their system.

I just kind of wish lightning would strike more than once a lifetime. I know as a Sox fan its not realistically to expect to be a favorite every year, but there's got to be a middle ground between every season and every 88 years :D:

FarWestChicago
11-30-2007, 09:38 AM
I just kind of wish lightning would strike more than once a lifetime. I know as a Sox fan its not realistically to expect to be a favorite every year, but there's got to be a middle ground between every season and every 88 years :D:I think this is a rational thought. :nod:

asindc
11-30-2007, 10:15 AM
Twins could move him at the break for even more prospects. They are gearing for the new ballpark not for 2008.

Lip in a perfect world there WOULD be a salary cap in baseball but it isn't going to happen.

Boston is scary as they are meeting payroll just from ticket revenue at Fenway (150 M ) which means they are making big bucks from adverising, NESN , NASCAR and who knows what else.

Plus to keep selling the tickets at insane prices they have to win or come close every year.

Fans of the other 28 teams ***** about Boston and the Yankees but how to you FIX the problem?

You fix the problem with a better revenue sharing program. It's the reason why "Any Given Sunday" applies to the NFL better than any other major league in the world. Cashman and Boy Wonder are shrewd, but it is easier to be smart when you have the resources to absorb a major mistake like the JD Drew signing and still contend.

I agree with other posters that I'm willing to wager (if this is even possible to assess) that my enjoyment of the 2005 Sox championship is (yes, IS... I'm still enjoying it!) sweeter than any Yanks fans enjoyment of any of their championships in the past 25 years. The Sox earned it the old-fashioned way: in the executive suite, in the front office, and on the field. And everybody knows it.

asindc
11-30-2007, 10:18 AM
That still makes no sense. Garland won't bring back much in terms of a half-year rental. I doubt that's their plan.

Sounds like dumb speculation on Gammons' part to me.

And I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it's just coincidence that their ballpark is coming and they're acquiring a lot of youth. It just so happens that they're about to lose guys to free agency that are due a lot of money, so they're selling while they can...it's what they always do; nothing new.

I agree. This seems like pure speculation. The Twinkees are not the kind of club to take that kind of risk. Keeping Mauer and Morneau seem to be their top priorities. Anything beyond that seems to be fueled by budget concerns.

palehozenychicty
11-30-2007, 10:39 AM
C'mon Lip, you're a geezer. Surely you know things that come easy are never as good as things that take some effort. Lay off the incessant jealousy of the rich teams. The Sox lightning in a bottle 2005 is so much better than buying a title year in and year out. A blowhard can brag about "winning" while buying the yearly title. It can only effect you if you choose to let it. I don't get wound up about all this Boston stuff like so many around here. Big deal. They bought a title. Who cares? Show me a team that earned it. That I'll respect and care about. Your obsession with the rich teams makes you miserable because you choose to let it make you miserable. Don't be jealous, don't hate; just don't care. Damn, there was a bad sci fi/fantasy movie (I think it was Merlin) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0130414/) that ended that way. Evil triumphed, but nobody cared. And Evil faded away. :D:

Perfect commentary on baseball and life as a whole. :D:

Fenway
11-30-2007, 10:40 AM
Hmmm

Santana's agent was at the Celtics-Knicks game BUT he represents a couple of players on both teams.


The Yankees are just as much in the dark as everybody else

November 30, 2007 -- The Yankees strongly suspect that if the Red Sox were on the brink of acquiring Johan Santana that the Twins would let them know as a way to, at the least, elicit a last, best package offer. And as of last night, the Yanks had not heard such info.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/11302007/sports/yankees/bosox_tryin__to_stockpile_720357.htm

The Red Sox are saying NOTHING

DSpivack
11-30-2007, 10:48 AM
You fix the problem with a better revenue sharing program. It's the reason why "Any Given Sunday" applies to the NFL better than any other major league in the world. Cashman and Boy Wonder are shrewd, but it is easier to be smart when you have the resources to absorb a major mistake like the JD Drew signing and still contend.

I agree with other posters that I'm willing to wager (if this is even possible to assess) that my enjoyment of the 2005 Sox championship is (yes, IS... I'm still enjoying it!) sweeter than any Yanks fans enjoyment of any of their championships in the past 25 years. The Sox earned it the old-fashioned way: in the executive suite, in the front office, and on the field. And everybody knows it.

Even the Yankees used a lot of home-grown players in their last championship run. Jeter, O'Neill, Posada, Bernie Williams, Rivera, Pettite, El Duque, etc. Since then, their payroll has gone way up, they've bought many of the top players, and they haven't won anything.

Sargeant79
11-30-2007, 11:02 AM
Even the Yankees used a lot of home-grown players in their last championship run. Jeter, O'Neill, Posada, Bernie Williams, Rivera, Pettite, El Duque, etc. Since then, their payroll has gone way up, they've bought many of the top players, and they haven't won anything.

Bernie Williams was a fairly high priced veteran by then. O'Neill came up with the Reds. IIRC, El Duque was also expensive because they had to outbid other teams since he was a free agent after he defected.

While it didn't rise to the obscene levels of late until around 2001 or so, the Yankees payroll has been extremely high for some time, including around their latest championship run that started around 1996 or so.

Fenway
11-30-2007, 11:18 AM
You fix the problem with a better revenue sharing program. It's the reason why "Any Given Sunday" applies to the NFL better than any other major league in the world. Cashman and Boy Wonder are shrewd, but it is easier to be smart when you have the resources to absorb a major mistake like the JD Drew signing and still contend.

I agree with other posters that I'm willing to wager (if this is even possible to assess) that my enjoyment of the 2005 Sox championship is (yes, IS... I'm still enjoying it!) sweeter than any Yanks fans enjoyment of any of their championships in the past 25 years. The Sox earned it the old-fashioned way: in the executive suite, in the front office, and on the field. And everybody knows it.

The beauty of the 2005 White Sox season was nobody saw it coming

My first White Sox game in 2005 was game 3 of the season at The Cell. There were to be kind maybe 7,000 people there ( it was cold even for an afternoon game )

I watched a lot of the game standing by Nancy's booth and several White Sox fans were saying how jealous they were of my 2004 champions hat and wish that someday they would have their own.

In the 9th inning when Shingo came in with the gong blasting away and he prompltly handed the game to the Indians nobody in the park was thinking warm fuzzy thoughts about the White Sox. Of course it turned out to be one of very few games the White Sox would blow all year.

Boston and the Yankees will always spend if they are allowed to because they have the money. How the hell are the Orioles, Blue Jays or Tampa Bay ever going to have a legit chance to win that division now.

What changed everything in Boston was NESN and the multi-millions they take in from basic cable fees. The Yankees took one look at this and then created YES and make even MORE money.

It is not a level playing field.....

That said the White Sox could certainly spend more if they wanted to. Don't forget they make a small fortune in signage by taking advantage of the fact the Cubs CAN'T. They also have the luxury boxes the Cubs really don't have.

The White Sox HAVE the money to play with the big boys. They certainly have more revenue options than Cleveland. The Tigers? Well they owned by a nutcake that sometimes says profit be damned ( see Red Wings )

Iwritecode
11-30-2007, 11:35 AM
All I know is that I was able to produce a source for my information, and nobody else has produced a source for yours.

Here's a source (http://www.ogpaper.com/news/news-0637.html) It even includes a quote from Hendry.

Hendry continued: "At the end of the day, I just wasn't going to be rushed into it and make a deal that I didn't think was good for us. We just couldn't kind of round it off and finish it. I've had some honest conversations with Jacque, and he knows where I stand. I told him I always do what's best for the Cubs first. He knows that, and I think he's comfortable with how I've gone about it."

ilsox7
11-30-2007, 11:40 AM
Here's a source (http://www.ogpaper.com/news/news-0637.html) It even includes a quote from Hendry.

Further, the source citing it was Selig blocking the trade said it was b/c he was not allowing the Cubs to take on more debt until the new ownership was in place. Then a few weeks later they shelled out tens of millions of dollars for Zambrano. It doesn't make much sense.

oeo
11-30-2007, 11:50 AM
The Red Sox are saying NOTHING

Probably because there's nothing to say...:dunno:

Iwritecode
11-30-2007, 11:59 AM
Further, the source citing it was Selig blocking the trade said it was b/c he was not allowing the Cubs to take on more debt until the new ownership was in place. Then a few weeks later they shelled out tens of millions of dollars for Zambrano. It doesn't make much sense.

I also heard a story that it was Sam Zell that blocked the trade from happening.

ma-gaga
11-30-2007, 12:45 PM
WBZ's source I am told is the sports director of WCCO in Minneapolis.

Not surprising as most of WCCO's news team has been transfered to Boston by CBS in recent months ( GM, news director and the best weatherman Boston has ever seen Ken Barlow )

They sticking with the story for now.

heh. Ken Barlow went to Boston eh? Damn you Fenway, THEY GET ALL OUR SUPERSTARS!!!

There's no way the deal gets made as reported yesterday (Crisp, Lowrie, Lester, Masterson). That deal was the same crap offer that Charlie Walters made up. If the Twins pull the trigger on that deal, I'm turning in my Twins hat.

The Twins need to get back 2 legitimate prospects/young players and 2 low level prospects for any deal with Johan to work. The deal is close, but they need to get back a better young player than Crisp, and Lester probably isn't good enough either. ... Despite what you may believe or the bloggers/newspapers state, it's not just a one year rental here, it's the exclusive rights to negotiate an 6 year extension with him and that number is pretty much established (6yrs - $130mm).

The Twins have to be greedy here. If they aren't, it'll kill the team.

Lip Man 1
11-30-2007, 12:52 PM
Spiffie:

Good point (re: your balance comment)

Last night while driving I had on ESPN radio for a time and Jeff Rickert was on. Jeff is from Nebraska and is a friend. We've talked about this in the past.

Last night on the air he was talking about this Santana situation and was pretty upset about it. His comment that "every year only six teams can honestly consider themselves World Series title contenders" rang true but when I thought about it I couldn't name six for the "every year," part.

Naturally you have the Mets, Yankees and Red Sox...but who else?

Can the Angels say they can win 'every year?' and I couldn't come up with a single team in the N.L. outside of the Mets.

That in itself is VERY bad for baseball.

Lip

Lip Man 1
11-30-2007, 12:55 PM
Bad Bobby:

How do you know?

Again on paper I came up with a series of names (pick and choose whom you wish) that could make a deal happen.

Now there may be outside or unknown factors making it impossible.

I'm simply saying (again) that I'm NOT 'blaming' Kenny, just surprised that he's not been as proactive as he had at this point in the game as in the past.

Lip

Flight #24
11-30-2007, 12:58 PM
Spiffie:

Good point (re: your balance comment)

Last night while driving I had on ESPN radio for a time and Jeff Rickert was on. Jeff is from Nebraska and is a friend. We've talked about this in the past.

Last night on the air he was talking about this Santana situation and was pretty upset about it. His comment that "every year only six teams can honestly consider themselves World Series title contenders" rang true but when I thought about it I couldn't name six for the "every year," part.

Naturally you have the Mets, Yankees and Red Sox...but who else?

Can the Angels say they can win 'every year?' and I couldn't come up with a single team in the N.L. outside of the Mets.

That in itself is VERY bad for baseball.

Lip

If you expand the definition to be "can win every year unless they're dumber as stumps", you would say the Angels (under Moreno, anyway) and Dodgers. Both have extremely deep pockets so it's just a question of whether they make stupid decisions. They're not as deep as the Yankees/BoSox, but I'd argue theyre deep enough to do things like consider taking on an ARod contract.

You could throw the Cubs in there as well - they have the pockets, it's just a question of if and how they spend it.

Fenway
11-30-2007, 01:12 PM
heh. Ken Barlow went to Boston eh? Damn you Fenway, THEY GET ALL OUR SUPERSTARS!!!



Best I have ever seen doing weather
http://img.viacomlocalnetworks.com/images_sizedimage_108132912/lg (javascript:void(0))
Ken doing the weather last night

http://wbztv.com/video/?id=46829@wbz.dayport.com (http://wbztv.com/video/?id=46829@wbz.dayport.com)