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russ99
11-29-2007, 11:10 AM
Now that Crawford and likely Rowand are out of the picture for the Sox, what do you guys think are reasonable moves Kenny can make to shore up our weak spots.

Needs:
CF, LF, Righty MR, 3rd/4th SP and possibly 2B, backup SS and backup C.

Trading Chips:
Crede, Uribe, Contreras, Anderson, Sweeney, MacDougal, Aardsma, Carter, and numerous pitching prospects such as Haeger, Philips, Broadway, Gio, Egbert, Russell, Harrell, De Los Santos and Poreda.

skottyj242
11-29-2007, 11:18 AM
Why do we need a backup catcher? Toby Hall is just fine. The guy tore his shoulder last year and should be healthy now. Leave him alone.

sox1970
11-29-2007, 11:20 AM
The Sox can't trade Poreda until after the 2008 draft.

chisoxmike
11-29-2007, 11:22 AM
Needs:

CF
LF
Bullpen
Another starter

I only expect to be getting a center fielder by Christmas.

veeter
11-29-2007, 11:23 AM
So, all we need are two starting outfielders and two starting pitchers. That should be easy to fill. Where's Hendry's checkbook?! If you think we're going to get two of anything, you're nuts. And along with leaving Toby Hall alone, leave Danny Richar alone too. If you haven't figured out that KW loves Richar, get used to it. He's your second baseman for ten years.

btrain929
11-29-2007, 11:25 AM
Needs:

CF
LF
Bullpen
Another starter

In my dream world, it would go:

CF - Andruw Jones @ 5 yrs 90 mil
LF - Trade for Ryan Freel or Reggie Willits (when ANA doesn't send him to FLA for Miggie)
Bullpen - Trade for Brian Fuentes
Another starter - Bartolo Colon

sox1970
11-29-2007, 11:26 AM
Needs:

CF
LF
Bullpen
Another starter

I would agree with that. The starter may be a guy that could also be a bullpen guy too. I think if Contreras, Danks, or Floyd are involved in trades, I think they all will be in the 2008 rotation.

If a big trade happened, I wouldn't be surprised if Danks was involved since he's a lefty and has a year of major league experience under his belt.

gr8mexico
11-29-2007, 11:26 AM
They should really look into Andruw Jones to play CF. Adding Andruw Jones, Joe Crede & Orlando Cabrera to this years lineup would be a huge upgrade from last season.

veeter
11-29-2007, 11:29 AM
They should really look into Andruw Jones to play CF. Adding Andruw Jones, Joe Crede & Orlando Cabrera to this years lineup would be a huge upgrade from last season.Good point. I look at it this way, we've already improved the bullpen (Linebrink) and shortstop position. Also, welcome back you *******.:redneck

chisoxmike
11-29-2007, 11:34 AM
They should really look into Andruw Jones to play CF. Adding Andruw Jones, Joe Crede & Orlando Cabrera to this years lineup would be a huge upgrade from last season.

I'm starting to hop on the Andruw Jones bandwagon. He's a good fielder and maybe his bat will come back.

Problem is, 1) his agent is the anti-Christ. 2) which means he/they will command much more than he's worth.

So, the Sox will probably not get him. :mad:

PorkChopExpress
11-29-2007, 11:36 AM
A lot depends on who winds up getting Miguel Cabrera. If it's not the Angels, I could see a trade of Konerko for Kotchman and Figgins/Willits.

I would love to see us get Cabrera, although I know it's a long shot, and make the above trade. To get Cabrera we would likely have to offer Fields, Gio, De Los Santos and one of Carter/Sweeney/Bourgeois/Russell/Egbert/Broadway depending on what the Marlins are looking for, and maybe even two of those guys to outbid the Dodgers and the Angels, but we would wind up with a lineup like:

Figgins/Willits CF
O. Cabrera SS
Thome DH
M. Cabrera LF
Dye RF
Kotchman 1B
Crede 3B
Pierzynski C
Richar 2B.

I know, it's xbox-esque, but not altogether impossible. Those are the winter meetings plans I would like to see. Feel free to torch me now.

btrain929
11-29-2007, 11:57 AM
I'm starting to hop on the Andruw Jones bandwagon. He's a good fielder and maybe his bat will come back.

Problem is, 1) his agent is the anti-Christ. 2) which means he/they will command much more than he's worth.

So, the Sox will probably not get him. :mad:

It was the worst offensive year of his career. I'm very confident he will come back strong. Plus, that will enable us to get him cheaper than what he would have received: 6yrs 120mil range. Nobody (I believe) will give him 5-6 yrs for 20 per, so if we can snag him for 18 mil per, I'd do it.

gr8mexico
11-29-2007, 12:01 PM
It was the worst offensive year of his career. I'm very confident he will come back strong. Plus, that will enable us to get him cheaper than what he would have received: 6yrs 120mil range. Nobody (I believe) will give him 5-6 yrs for 20 per, so if we can snag him for 18 mil per, I'd do it.
Yes you are right if the Sox can sign him for 17 to 18mil a year for 6 years it would be a steal. He had one bad year. He hit 50 HR in 06 and would easily do the same here.

guillen4life13
11-29-2007, 12:04 PM
A lot depends on who winds up getting Miguel Cabrera. If it's not the Angels, I could see a trade of Konerko for Kotchman and Figgins/Willits.

I would love to see us get Cabrera, although I know it's a long shot, and make the above trade. To get Cabrera we would likely have to offer Fields, Gio, De Los Santos and one of Carter/Sweeney/Bourgeois/Russell/Egbert/Broadway depending on what the Marlins are looking for, and maybe even two of those guys to outbid the Dodgers and the Angels, but we would wind up with a lineup like:

Figgins/Willits CF
O. Cabrera SS
Thome DH
M. Cabrera LF
Dye RF
Kotchman 1B
Crede 3B
Pierzynski C
Richar 2B.

I know, it's xbox-esque, but not altogether impossible. Those are the winter meetings plans I would like to see. Feel free to torch me now.

That's one hell of a defensive outfield. I'd love the lineup though. Easily the best (on paper) in the AL... except maybe the Angels.

nccwsfan
11-29-2007, 12:04 PM
So, all we need are two starting outfielders and two starting pitchers. That should be easy to fill. Where's Hendry's checkbook?! If you think we're going to get two of anything, you're nuts. And along with leaving Toby Hall alone, leave Danny Richar alone too. If you haven't figured out that KW loves Richar, get used to it. He's your second baseman for ten years.

Same goes for Jerry Owens- he's going to be in the starting lineup on Opening Day, whether people like it or not. Kenny will either a) get a CF and put Owens in left, or b) get a LF and put Owens in center.

Fix the bullpen Kenny.

Chicken Dinner
11-29-2007, 12:05 PM
Jones=Boras..........ain't gonna happen.

Dick Allen
11-29-2007, 12:14 PM
I thought Jones was firing Borass?

WhiteSox5187
11-29-2007, 12:14 PM
I think that we need more bullpen help obviously, we need a leadoff guy and a CF/LF...but I wouldn't be shocked if Kenny decides to stand pat.

chisoxmike
11-29-2007, 12:17 PM
I thought Jones was firing Borass?

I think that was a WSI jump to conclusion after reading a rumor in a paper.

oeo
11-29-2007, 12:31 PM
Why do we need a backup catcher? Toby Hall is just fine. The guy tore his shoulder last year and should be healthy now. Leave him alone.

Because most people around here look at the last season...and if you sucked, that means you suck, period. Remember how much Buehrle sucked before 2007? :roflmao:

JackK
11-29-2007, 12:43 PM
Same goes for Jerry Owens- he's going to be in the starting lineup on Opening Day, whether people like it or not. Kenny will either a) get a CF and put Owens in left, or b) get a LF and put Owens in center.

Fix the bullpen Kenny.

Why is everyone always harping on Owens? He has good speed, decent fielder and put up some good offensive numbers at the end of the season. Im predicting he has a break out year in 08.

Domeshot17
11-29-2007, 01:20 PM
Why is everyone always harping on Owens? He has good speed, decent fielder and put up some good offensive numbers at the end of the season. Im predicting he has a break out year in 08.


This is not a 21-22-23 year old kid we are talking about. Owens is already on the wrong side of 20 to be considered any kind of prospect. Now we think he still has room for GROWTH?

What you saw from Owens is what you get. A sub par defensive CF with a weak arm, good speed an inconsistent bat and no idea how to work counts and get on base at the clip we need from our lead off man.

kittle42
11-29-2007, 01:22 PM
I just hope they do something that doesn't suck.

kittle42
11-29-2007, 01:22 PM
Im predicting he has a break out year in 08.

In Charlotte, hopefully.

PalehosePlanet
11-29-2007, 01:54 PM
This is not a 21-22-23 year old kid we are talking about. Owens is already on the wrong side of 20 to be considered any kind of prospect. Now we think he still has room for GROWTH?

What you saw from Owens is what you get. A sub par defensive CF with a weak arm, good speed an inconsistent bat and no idea how to work counts and get on base at the clip we need from our lead off man.

That's also nearly an exact description of Reggie Willits; accept he draws walks because he's 4'8", and for whatever reason has a HUGE fanbase here at WSI. I don't understand it (that goes for Ervin Santana also; the fact that he's been dangled as trade bait for 2+ years and no team has ever taken the bait doesn't seem to concern anyone here.)

Don't get me wrong I'm no big fan of Owens; he's okay as a 4th OF, but the admiration of Willits and the overall obsession with the Angels organization at WSI is perplexing --- to say the least.

nccwsfan
11-29-2007, 02:25 PM
This is not a 21-22-23 year old kid we are talking about. Owens is already on the wrong side of 20 to be considered any kind of prospect. Now we think he still has room for GROWTH?

What you saw from Owens is what you get. A sub par defensive CF with a weak arm, good speed an inconsistent bat and no idea how to work counts and get on base at the clip we need from our lead off man.

Defensively I agree with you- it's hard to improve on a weak arm, but if that's the case move him over to LF. 3 1/2 months in the majors is a pretty small sample to decide that he's never going to improve/correct himself at the plate. His numbers at the plate from July through September were at the very least acceptable to keep him in the lineup (.284 AVG, .344 OBP), whether it be at leadoff or the 9 hole. Speed kills- he has it and this lineup needs it desperately.

Owens is getting a raw deal- he should have the opportunity to work on correcting his weaknesses and see what he can do over the course of a full season. If the season goes on and his numbers are hurting bench him, but there is a chance for a higher reward than most may think.

Sargeant79
11-29-2007, 02:29 PM
This is not a 21-22-23 year old kid we are talking about. Owens is already on the wrong side of 20 to be considered any kind of prospect. Now we think he still has room for GROWTH?

What you saw from Owens is what you get. A sub par defensive CF with a weak arm, good speed an inconsistent bat and no idea how to work counts and get on base at the clip we need from our lead off man.

By no means am I on the Owens bandwagon, and I would prefer our opening day CF to be Andruw Jones, Mike Cameron, Coco Crisp, Wily Tavarez, or most of the other names mentioned in the rumor mill. However, he is not quite as bad as you make him out to be...

He only began playing baseball full time after college, so while he is 27 (I think), it is not as concerning as if he had been a full-time baseball player since age 18 or so. As far as his defense, he gets okay reads at best, but he covers a lot of ground and is able to come up with the tough catch. Granted his arm is below average for a CF but would be far less of a liability in LF. He has great, potentially game-changing speed on the bases. He showed improvement in his rookie year as the year progressed, and the only players who are good at working counts as rookies are the Ryan Brauns and Albert Pujolses of the world. As much as I would prefer any of the other aforementioned options, if he gets the first shot at leading off this year, it wouldn't be the worst we could do.

Chicken Dinner
11-29-2007, 02:58 PM
I guess the real question is do GM's go out and aquire players at this point or do they sit back wait for the "Mitchel report" just in case the player they want has his name show up on his list.

WhiteSox5187
11-29-2007, 06:11 PM
Why is everyone always harping on Owens? He has good speed, decent fielder and put up some good offensive numbers at the end of the season. Im predicting he has a break out year in 08.
He had a nice September, never trust numbers put up in September.

santo=dorf
11-29-2007, 06:12 PM
Because most people around here look at the last season...and if you sucked, that means you suck, period. Remember how much Buehrle sucked before 2007? :roflmao:
Toby Hall does not have good career numbers.

the1tab
11-29-2007, 06:37 PM
Jones will earn 5 full years and $90 mil more then Torii Hunter will. He's younger, has more championship-level experience, and hasn't become accustomed to A) running into a garbage bag that gives when he hits it and B) bouncing throws on the concrete turf. Jacque Jones arm sucked w/ the Cubs because he was used to using the turf to aide throws... Hunter does the same. Bounces don't help on grass. While I'm in no way saying Hunter is Jacque Jones, I am saying that you get used to playing to the stadium you're in, and Hunter has made the HumpDome an advantage to his game. Andruw's played outside his whole career and would own the Cell.

Count my vote for Jones.

PorkChopExpress
11-29-2007, 07:21 PM
Jones will earn 5 full years and $90 mil more then Torii Hunter will. He's younger, has more championship-level experience, and hasn't become accustomed to A) running into a garbage bag that gives when he hits it and B) bouncing throws on the concrete turf. Jacque Jones arm sucked w/ the Cubs because he was used to using the turf to aide throws... Hunter does the same. Bounces don't help on grass. While I'm in no way saying Hunter is Jacque Jones, I am saying that you get used to playing to the stadium you're in, and Hunter has made the HumpDome an advantage to his game. Andruw's played outside his whole career and would own the Cell.

Count my vote for Jones.

Am I missing something here? I thought Jones was looking for a long term contract over 5 years. "Boras is seeking a contract similar to the ones received by Vernon Wells and Alfonso Soriano before this season began. Both of them gained contracts that consisted of at least seven years and included an annual salary of at least $17 million."

http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071002&content_id=2245761&vkey=news_atl&fext=.jsp&c_id=atl

Why do we think he will sign with us for five? I understand that he had a bad year last year, but Hunter just signed 5 years $90 million. Jones has to get more than Hunter, no?

veeter
11-29-2007, 07:22 PM
By no means am I on the Owens bandwagon, and I would prefer our opening day CF to be Andruw Jones, Mike Cameron, Coco Crisp, Wily Tavarez, or most of the other names mentioned in the rumor mill. However, he is not quite as bad as you make him out to be...

He only began playing baseball full time after college, so while he is 27 (I think), it is not as concerning as if he had been a full-time baseball player since age 18 or so. As far as his defense, he gets okay reads at best, but he covers a lot of ground and is able to come up with the tough catch. Granted his arm is below average for a CF but would be far less of a liability in LF. He has great, potentially game-changing speed on the bases. He showed improvement in his rookie year as the year progressed, and the only players who are good at working counts as rookies are the Ryan Brauns and Albert Pujolses of the world. As much as I would prefer any of the other aforementioned options, if he gets the first shot at leading off this year, it wouldn't be the worst we could do.Very well said. Owens is unbelievable on the bases.

JB98
11-29-2007, 08:49 PM
Very well said. Owens is unbelievable on the bases.

That's really all Jerry does well though. He needs a lot of improvement in other areas.

That said, I'd rather stick with him than deal for Reggie Willits. Not sure what the fascination with that guy is. He had three good months and tailed off significantly at the end of the year. He was nobody before that. He has one-year wonder written all over him.

The Reggie Willits bandwagon sort of reminds me of the groundswell of support for a Frank Catalanotto acquisition a few years back. Thank God that didn't happen.

Tragg
11-29-2007, 09:24 PM
CF and LF, one of which needs to be a leadoff hitter. The league's most impotent offense is what needs fixing.
As for Owens, does he really have the talent and athletic skills to improve - i.e. get that OBP to a minimum of .350? He can't even hit a double, so if he's not walking and getting on base somehow, it's a problem offensively.

The bullpen should be okay. The Sox have plenty of young, live arms for the bullpen. The Sox can find a couple of relief pitchers out of that group just as well as they can by trading prospects for mediocre middle relievers, who are no more trustworthy, and probably less talented, than what's in-house.

It's a shame that 2 spots were wasted last year with Meyers and Bukvich instead of giving talented pitchers the work and experience, but no need to repeat that practice.

chisox77
11-29-2007, 09:25 PM
I would support anything KW does from this point, as long as he DOESN'T KICK THE BALL TO DEVIN HESTER!!!!



:D:

WhiteSox5187
11-29-2007, 10:35 PM
Very well said. Owens is unbelievable on the bases.
Problem is he wasn't on the bases a whole lot last year.

Taliesinrk
11-29-2007, 10:43 PM
KW has got to have something planned after waiving pods. otherwise im not watching this year.. (<-- ill always watch, but itll make for one hell of a long summer)

Lip Man 1
11-29-2007, 11:19 PM
Tragg:

Just wondering whom you had in mind with your comment about "talented (minor league) pitchers."

I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing, based on what I saw come up from Charlotte last year, that the Sox have "talented" pitchers in Triple A.

And as far as "in house" I'd really rather not go through the nightmare of Aarsdma, Logan, Sisco, Massett et al ever again.

Part of why for good or bad, I think Kenny has to make more changes is because if he doesn't and the bullpen stinks for the 3rd straight year, he runs a serious risk of 'losing' his veteran players...Ozzie himself alluded to that last season for what that may be worth.

Lip

skottyj242
11-30-2007, 09:27 AM
Toby Hall does not have good career numbers.

What more do you want from a backup? Why he plays everyday he's a .270 hitter. Would you rather have Gustavo Molina? I'm sick of the Toby Hall bashing.

santo=dorf
11-30-2007, 09:38 AM
What more do you want from a backup? Why he plays everyday he's a .270 hitter. Would you rather have Gustavo Molina? I'm sick of the Toby Hall bashing.
Prove to me he's healthy without the surgery. He didn't get it last year and he was terrible, and he still hasn't gotten it.

He's hit .270 over the course of a full season only once, and that came with Erstad-like .315 OBP and .368 SLG%. That's garbage.

Can't throw, didn't make our pitchers look good (surprisingly Molina handled the pitchers pretty well,) slow, career OPS+ of 78, made some public potshots at the Rays organization before coming here, and he's the second highest paid backup catcher in the league.

...and he still hasn't had surgery yet.

Toby Hall sucks. A bad everyday player does not guarantee success off the bench. Some guys need to play everyday in order to stay in shape or keep their swing in check.

skottyj242
11-30-2007, 09:50 AM
Prove to me he's healthy without the surgery. He didn't get it last year and he was terrible, and he still hasn't gotten it.

He's hit .270 over the course of a full season only once, and that came with Erstad-like .315 OBP and .368 SLG%. That's garbage.

Can't throw, didn't make our pitchers look good (surprisingly Molina handled the pitchers pretty well,) slow, career OPS+ of 78, made some public potshots at the Rays organization before coming here, and he's the second highest paid backup catcher in the league.

...and he still hasn't had surgery yet.

Toby Hall sucks. A bad everyday player does not guarantee success off the bench. Some guys need to play everyday in order to stay in shape or keep their swing in check.

He will be healthy this year. He got hurt playing first where he had no business playing at all and he didn't have surgery so he could try and help the team, some would call that being a team player.

On another note you want a backup catcher that will hit .320, throw out 80% of baserunners and handle a pitching staff that he only gets to see once a week? I don't think you're gonna find that anywhere, and if there is a backup out there that can do all that he would be starting. Long live Toby Hall.

dickallen15
11-30-2007, 09:58 AM
He will be healthy this year. He got hurt playing first where he had no business playing at all and he didn't have surgery so he could try and help the team, some would call that being a team player.

On another note you want a backup catcher that will hit .320, throw out 80% of baserunners and handle a pitching staff that he only gets to see once a week? I don't think you're gonna find that anywhere, and if there is a backup out there that can do all that he would be starting. Long live Toby Hall.
An OPS under .500, 3 RBI in 116 AB, can't throw. Doesn't call a great game. He probably will improve next season, because how can he be worse. With Andy Gonzalez perhaps the 2 worst players in baseball in 2007.

asindc
11-30-2007, 10:02 AM
What more do you want from a backup? Why he plays everyday he's a .270 hitter. Would you rather have Gustavo Molina? I'm sick of the Toby Hall bashing.

Ditto. Backup catchers are backups for a reason. Hall is one of the better ones. If you want starter production out of your backup, you'll have to pay starter money. No team, not even the Yanks, does that, and for good reason. Money is better spent elsewhere. Enough of this. The Sox have more important issues to address.

skottyj242
11-30-2007, 10:12 AM
An OPS under .500, 3 RBI in 116 AB, can't throw. Doesn't call a great game. He probably will improve next season, because how can he be worse. With Andy Gonzalez perhaps the 2 worst players in baseball in 2007.

The guy messed up his shoulder real bad and refused surgery to try and help the team. If he wouldn't have come back we would have had Gustavo "Weak Roller to the Pitcher" Molina out there once a week. I would take Toby any time over him. Toby Hall rules, and if he is what you guys think is wrong with this team you are crazy. There are a lot more holes that need to be filled before we worry about backup catcher.

wulfy
11-30-2007, 10:27 AM
Toby Hall shouldn't have played last year, but gutted it out. I wouldn't take his arm strength or hitting at face value from last year.

SBSoxFan
11-30-2007, 10:46 AM
Am I missing something here? I thought Jones was looking for a long term contract over 5 years. "Boras is seeking a contract similar to the ones received by Vernon Wells and Alfonso Soriano before this season began. Both of them gained contracts that consisted of at least seven years and included an annual salary of at least $17 million."

http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071002&content_id=2245761&vkey=news_atl&fext=.jsp&c_id=atl

Why do we think he will sign with us for five? I understand that he had a bad year last year, but Hunter just signed 5 years $90 million. Jones has to get more than Hunter, no?

I read it as exactly what the1tab was saying: 10/180. To which I say I'm glad he's not the GM of the Sox.

nccwsfan
11-30-2007, 02:01 PM
Problem is he wasn't on the bases a whole lot last year.

White OBP in 2007 (w/150 or more AB)
Thome .410
Mackowiak .354
Konerko .351
Iguchi .340
Owens .324
Dye .317
Erstad .310
Pierzynski .309
Fields .308
Podsednik .299
Richar .289
Uribe .284
Cintron .281
Gonzalez .280
Crede .258

Neither were a lot of the other players on this team. He has had only 3 1/2 months of MLB experience and improved his numbers toward the end of the season, yet most everyone is clamoring for Owens to be on the bench, sent to AAA, or released.

Is it really a stretch to think that he couldn't improve with a full season under his belt? Is this team that much worse if he's starting at LF or RF? Guess I'm on the Owens bandwagon, but I'm looking forward to him creating some havoc on the basepaths in 08'.

Taliesinrk
11-30-2007, 02:12 PM
White OBP in 2007 (w/150 or more AB)
Thome .410
Mackowiak .354
Konerko .351
Iguchi .340
Owens .324
Dye .317
Erstad .310
Pierzynski .309
Fields .308
Podsednik .299
Richar .289
Uribe .284
Cintron .281
Gonzalez .280
Crede .258

Neither were a lot of the other players on this team. He has had only 3 1/2 months of MLB experience and improved his numbers toward the end of the season, yet most everyone is clamoring for Owens to be on the bench, sent to AAA, or released.

Is it really a stretch to think that he couldn't improve with a full season under his belt? Is this team that much worse if he's starting at LF or RF? Guess I'm on the Owens bandwagon, but I'm looking forward to him creating some havoc on the basepaths in 08'.

Me too.. but if he's in RF, he'll be in the record books for worst throwing arm at position of all time.

Tragg
11-30-2007, 02:13 PM
Is it really a stretch to think that he couldn't improve with a full season under his belt? Is this team that much worse if he's starting at LF or RF? Guess I'm on the Owens bandwagon, but I'm looking forward to him creating some havoc on the basepaths in 08'.
The Sox are a bad OBP team to begin with. I don't know if it's because of the coaching or just the players are natural free swingers or both. Now the organization is an OBP organization - the ML club just doesn't reflect it.

For a lot of young players, improvement is expected. But does Owens have the athletic skill to improve? He can barely hit a ball out of the infield. And because of his lack of any sort of power, they just throw straight strikes, he won't be able to walk much (which is a challenge on this team even if you aren't thrown strikes).

And frankly, there are players with more talent who have not been given near the chance of Owens. Richar's one. And there are others. I think Richar would be a better lead off hitter than Owens, given time.

And if Owens can't get on base 35% of the time, he suffocates this offense. We need players on base in front of Thome, Konerko and Dye. Can we take the chance with Owens?

nccwsfan
11-30-2007, 02:27 PM
Me too.. but if he's in RF, he'll be in the record books for worst throwing arm at position of all time.

Meant to say LF or CF :redface: He should never play RF unless it's an emergency.

gr8mexico
11-30-2007, 05:56 PM
Well it looks like the SF Giants are looking for a 3rd Baseman. I hope Kenny offers them Joe Crede & Brian Anderson for Noah Lowry. Noah is signed thru 2009 with an option for 2010. Then maybe we can find someone to take Jose Contreras contract.:bandance:

Taliesinrk
11-30-2007, 06:02 PM
Well it looks like the SF Giants are looking for a 3rd Baseman. I hope Kenny offers them Joe Crede & Brian Anderson for Noah Lowry. Noah is signed thru 2009 with an option for 2010. Then maybe we can find someone to take Jose Contreras contract.:bandance:

The giants have their 3rd baseman already in their organization... he's named Simon Klink.

KRS1
11-30-2007, 06:06 PM
The giants have their 3rd baseman already in their organization... he's named Simon Klink.

The same Simon Klink who just had an extremely less-than impressive season as a 25 year old in AA? Good luck to them if that is their plan for 3b this season.

jabrch
11-30-2007, 06:09 PM
Why is everyone always harping on Owens? He has good speed, decent fielder and put up some good offensive numbers at the end of the season. Im predicting he has a break out year in 08.

In his first season in the bigs, in September, in 106 PA, he hit .340/.396 with 10 SBs.

I can see how so many people have concluded that he can't play in this league. That makes total sense to me.

gr8mexico
11-30-2007, 06:13 PM
The same Simon Klink who just had an extremely less-than impressive season as a 25 year old in AA? Good luck to them if that is their plan for 3b this season.
Yeah he was BAD!!!! The guy had 110 strikeouts in 408 AB in AA and he is 26 years old I would consider that really BAD!!!

dickallen15
11-30-2007, 06:40 PM
In his first season in the bigs, in September, in 106 PA, he hit .340/.396 with 10 SBs.

I can see how so many people have concluded that he can't play in this league. That makes total sense to me.

Juan Uribe hit .309 in September with an .884 OPS, why are the White Sox replacing him?

btrain929
11-30-2007, 06:43 PM
Juan Uribe hit .309 in September with an .884 OPS, why are the White Sox replacing him?

Because Owens didn't completely and utterly suck in the other months surrounding September, ESPECIALLY for a rookie.

JermaineDye05
11-30-2007, 06:47 PM
Because Owens didn't completely and utterly suck in the other months surrounding September, ESPECIALLY for a rookie.

Darn beat me to it. Uribe has shown to be a streaky hitter throughout his career. This was Owens first season in the bigs and he went through his struggles but close to the end of the season he showed improvements. I'd really like to see him work on his bunting in ST though. He showed flashes of being a pretty good hitter at times (i.e. his 5-6 in Minnesota near the end of September). I would much rather have an upgrade in Center with an upgrade at lead off too but I would not be opposed to giving Owens the chance to lead off in Left if he has a good ST (that's assuming we get another CF).

santo=dorf
11-30-2007, 07:09 PM
Because Owens didn't completely and utterly suck in the other months surrounding September, ESPECIALLY for a rookie.
Could've fooled me:
Atrocious in June
Bad as Erstad in July
Even worse in August

Here are the stats: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7846/splits;_ylt=AtdpmDydJfuLMI6ubDDwKyOFCLcF

Just what are you looking at?

Anderson put up some similar numbers to that and had two good months for a rookie and he will never be seen again
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7489/splits;_ylt=Aj4s9OzV4vlPTIqmZa2pwxiFCLcF?year=2006&type=Batting

PorkChopExpress
11-30-2007, 07:18 PM
Could've fooled me:
Atrocious in June
Bad as Erstad in July
Even worse in August

Here are the stats: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7846/splits;_ylt=AtdpmDydJfuLMI6ubDDwKyOFCLcF

Just what are you looking at?

Anderson put up some similar numbers to that and had two good months for a rookie and he will never be seen again
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7489/splits;_ylt=Aj4s9OzV4vlPTIqmZa2pwxiFCLcF?year=2006&type=Batting

July looked like a decent month. And as pointed out, September was outstanding. 2 good months out of four and two right there with the rest of the team.

santo=dorf
11-30-2007, 07:24 PM
July looked like a decent month. And as pointed out, September was outstanding. 2 good months out of four and two right there with the rest of the team.
A .333 OBP is nothing special, especially for a team wanting to compete and have him leadoff. It's also a bad sign when your slugging% is lower than your OBP, and that includes his only home run. :o:

How does Owens' July and September compare to Anderson's July and August? Brian also played much better defense.

btrain929
11-30-2007, 07:27 PM
Could've fooled me:
Atrocious in June
Bad as Erstad in July
Even worse in August

Here are the stats: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7846/splits;_ylt=AtdpmDydJfuLMI6ubDDwKyOFCLcF

Just what are you looking at?

Anderson put up some similar numbers to that and had two good months for a rookie and he will never be seen again
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7489/splits;_ylt=Aj4s9OzV4vlPTIqmZa2pwxiFCLcF?year=2006&type=Batting

What are YOU looking at? Erstad had 1 at-bat in July, while Jerry batted .286/.333 ish in July. I don't get the Erstad comparison. Batting .286 is bad for a month?

Plus, in Anderson's months outside of the 2 good ones, he couldn't hit over .200 in ANY MONTH. Anderson's best months aren't better than Owens best months in batting avg or obp. The month Anderson hit for his highest average (.313), his obp was .328.

Finally, when Anderson got hits/on base, that was about the end of it. When Owens got on base, he stole a ****load of bases, and pitchers had to worry about it.

And if everyone is so quick to dismiss Owens' September cuz apparently pitchers underhand the ball to the plate in that month, how come Anderson only hit .200 in HIS September?

If you want to talk about potential between the 2, that's a different story. But if you want to put up links to show numbers, its pretty clear Owens was better offensively than Anderson was in their 1st years in the bigs, and there shouldn't be ANY comparison between Uribe and Owens in any way, shape, or form.

santo=dorf
11-30-2007, 07:31 PM
What are YOU looking at? Erstad had 1 at-bat in July, while Jerry batted .286/.333 ish in July. I don't get the Erstad comparison. Batting .286 is bad for a month? Plus, in Anderson's months outside of the 2 good ones, he couldn't hit over .200 in not ONE MONTH. Anderson's best months aren't better than Owens best months in batting avg or obp. Finally, when Anderson got hits/on base, that was about the end of it. When Owens got on base, he stole a ****load of bases, and pitchers had to worry about it.
And if everyone is so quick to dismiss Owens September cuz apparently pitchers underhand the ball to the plate in that month, how come Anderson only hit .200 in HIS September?
If you want to talk about potential between the 2, that's a different story. But if you want to put up links to show numbers, its pretty clear Owens was better offensively than Anderson was in their 1st years in the bigs.
I'm comparing Owens' line in July to Erstad's typical line. decent BA, low OBP, zero pop.

Come out of the dark ages already. There are much better ways to evaluate hitters than batting average.

I don't care how many bases he stole. He noodle arm is going to give those bases back when singles turn into doubles. His low OBP sucks as well, so he's not going to have a chance to steal so much.

How does the White Sox's September in 2007 compare to 2006? Last time I checked, in 2006 they were fighting for a playoff spot. Last year they were fighting the Royals.

btrain929
11-30-2007, 07:40 PM
I'm comparing Owens' line in July to Erstad's typical line. decent BA, low OBP, zero pop.

Come out of the dark ages already. There are much better ways to evaluate hitters than batting average.

I don't care how many bases he stole. He noodle arm is going to give those bases back when singles turn into doubles. His low OBP sucks as well, so he's not going to have a chance to steal so much.

How does the White Sox's September in 2007 compare to 2006? Last time I checked, in 2006 they were fighting for a playoff spot. Last year they were fighting the Royals.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:
This just in, you don't look for pop from your leadoff hitter. Sizemore and Alfonso can hit all the HR's they want, but it's not a requirement for a leadoff hitter. Pods had a lower SLG% in '05 than his OBP, was anyone crying about it then?

I want Owens in LF, not CF, if he NEEDS to be in the lineup. I agree his arm sucks. I want to sign a premier CF'er and put Owens in LF IF WE CAN'T FIND A BETTER LEADOFF HITTER. Everyone thinks he's hit his ceiling and can't improve. Why? Did people forget Jerry Owens won the batting title a few years back?

And your last bolded message is just ridiculous. The Sox played terribly in the '06 September and we're never "seriously" in it. In one of these threads, someone posted the SP'ers that Owens faced in September, and the majority of them were quality household SP'ers, not John Johnson from AA. Plus, if you want to go that route about the playoff race September vs non-contention September, then the '06 September proves that Anderson can't play when the pressure is on in a playoff race, so why would he be considered to be given another shot? I really don't know why you even brought him in this discussion.

santo=dorf
11-30-2007, 07:49 PM
:rolleyes::rolleyes:
This just in, you don't look for pop from your leadoff hitter. Sizemore and Alfonso can hit all the HR's they want, but it's not a requirement for a leadoff hitter. Pods had a lower SLG% in '05 than his OBP, was anyone crying about it then?

I want Owens in LF, not CF, if he NEEDS to be in the lineup. I agree his arm sucks. I want to sign a premier CF'er and put Owens in LF IF WE CAN'T FIND A BETTER LEADOFF HITTER. Everyone thinks he's hit his ceiling and can't improve. Why? Did people forget Jerry Owens won the batting title a few years back?

And your last bolded message is just ridiculous. The Sox played terribly in the '06 September and we're never "seriously" in it. In one of these threads, someone posted the SP'ers that Owens faced in September, and the majority of them were quality household SP'ers, not John Johnson from AA. Plus, if you want to go that route about the playoff race September vs non-contention September, .

You are insane

The morning September 1st, 2006 Standings:
78-55
AND HAD THE MOTHER****ING LEAD IN THE WILD CARD.
:rolleyes: back at ya'.

then the '06 September proves that Anderson can't play when the pressure is on in a playoff race, so why would he be considered to be given another shot? I really don't know why you even brought him in this discussion
Mr. Mariotti you can't have both ways. Either the Sox were in it in September or they weren't. Were the Sox not in it during July and August when Anderson had good months? Wouldn't that prove the opposite of the claim you just made?

Why do I bother? :?:

dickallen15
11-30-2007, 08:53 PM
Because Owens didn't completely and utterly suck in the other months surrounding September, ESPECIALLY for a rookie.
Besides July, yes he truly did suck all the other months even for a rookie.
And besides BA his July was nothing to write home about

June .170 BA .214 OBP .208 SLG
JULY .287 BA .333 OBP .327 SLG
AUG .229 BA .302 OBP .295 SLG
SEP .340 BA .391 OBP .377 SLG

Besides Sept. all his other months including July with a .287 but a lowly .333 OBP is not good enough for a lead off man, or even a 9th place hitter in the AL with those ridiculously low slugging percentages. He had a great September. If he played September exactly like July he might not even be on the roster right now.

btrain929
11-30-2007, 09:31 PM
You are insane

The morning September 1st, 2006 Standings:
78-55
AND HAD THE MOTHER****ING LEAD IN THE WILD CARD.
:rolleyes: back at ya'.


Mr. Mariotti you can't have both ways. Either the Sox were in it in September or they weren't. Were the Sox not in it during July and August when Anderson had good months? Wouldn't that prove the opposite of the claim you just made?

Why do I bother? :?:

Maybe you didn't read my post close enough. I said they played horribly IN September, not leading up to September. They were in the lead for the wild card when September started. How long did that last? They fell in the standings unbelievably quick IN September when they couldn't score a run or get a big hit to save their lives, and as every day went past, they were further and further away from a legitimate playoff spot.

Instead of focusing on the last part of my post, did you even read the first couple parts when I said I'd love an upgrade for the leadoff spot? But if worse came to worse, i'd rather have Owens leading off than trading 2-3 people to Boston to have Coco, his skills, and his salary leading off. In the perfect world, we obtain a CF that can leadoff, and Owens can play LF and bat 9th and get you 50 sb's. But there are not a lot of options out there for CF leadoff men, and if we acquire a LF leadoff hitter, who players CF??

I'm just being realistic that I think Owens will be in our starting lineup next year somehow because he's cheap, showed promise his rookie year, and has speed. I know for a fact KW is in love with 2 of those things. If KW can upgrade both outfield spots without shipping out the few top prospects we have, more power to him. I just don't see it happening.....

jabrch
11-30-2007, 09:44 PM
Juan Uribe hit .309 in September with an .884 OPS, why are the White Sox replacing him?


You don't relieve believe comparing a guy who trended up in his first four months to a guy who has trended down as he got to his peak age is the same do you Dick?

nccwsfan
11-30-2007, 09:47 PM
Besides July, yes he truly did suck all the other months even for a rookie. And besides BA his July was nothing to write home about

June .170 BA .214 OBP .208 SLG
JULY .287 BA .333 OBP .327 SLG
AUG .229 BA .302 OBP .295 SLG
SEP .340 BA .391 OBP .377 SLG

Who on the 07' White Sox had a batting average to write home about at any time? If you can find any how many of them were rookies?

If a .350 or better OBP is what people look for a leadoff hitter it's hard to say that he truly sucked in July and September. Below standards in July yes, but sucked? No.

Besides Sept. all his other months including July with a .287 but a lowly .333 OBP is not good enough for a lead off man, or even a 9th place hitter in the AL with those ridiculously low slugging percentages.

He was a rookie put into the leadoff spot in midseason. Guess it depends on how you look at it, but those who think Owens has hit his ceiling would also have to admit that he could improve his skills in ST and have a much more productive season. It's just not that far fetched to conceive.

He had a great September. If he played September exactly like July he might not even be on the roster right now.

If he played July exactly like September we probably wouldn't be having this debate right now. :smile:

champagne030
11-30-2007, 11:32 PM
You don't relieve believe comparing a guy who trended up in his first four months to a guy who has trended down as he got to his peak age is the same do you Dick?

Trended up? What stats are you looking at? :rolleyes:

I guess Uribe trended up too.

Owens:

.170/.214
.287/.333
.229/.302
.340/.391

Kenny's coffee is getting cold, I think he needs a refill.....chop, chop....

WhiteSox5187
11-30-2007, 11:57 PM
All these stats for Owens in September, but we're forgetting one thing, WE CAN NOT TRUST STATS IN SEPTEMBER. Owens had a great September, no doubt about it. But God, how many Sox prospects have had great Septembers only to never do anything again?

Frater Perdurabo
12-01-2007, 06:33 AM
All these stats for Owens in September, but we're forgetting one thing, WE CAN NOT TRUST STATS IN SEPTEMBER. Owens had a great September, no doubt about it. But God, how many Sox prospects have had great Septembers only to never do anything again?

Yeah, remember that Frank Thomas guy? Remember how great he was in September 1990? Haven't heard from him since.

:tongue:

Tragg
12-01-2007, 09:04 AM
Because Owens didn't completely and utterly suck in the other months surrounding September, ESPECIALLY for a rookie.
Yes he did.

And his defense also isn't particularly compelling.

Owens was given a better chance than any rookie on this team in the last 5 years. Put at leadoff, protected, no pressure because the team's out of it, left alone and not publically dogged by the manager.