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StepsInSC
11-28-2007, 02:26 PM
Wow:

The Twins are close to landing Delmon Young from the Twins in a six-player deal that would send Matt Garza, Jason Bartlett and Juan Rincon to Tampa Bay.
The Twins would also pick up Brendan Harris and Jason Pridie, the Star Tribune's La Velle E. Neal III reports. Unless the Twins see Young as an option in center, he'd probably play left, with Jason Kubel DHing against right-handers. Nick Punto could replace Bartlett, leaving Harris to take over at second until Alexi Casilla is ready. The Rays would be opening up room in the outfield for Rocco Baldelli or Elijah Dukes. Jonny Gomes' chances of sticking around would also seem to increase. Nov. 28 - 3:05 pm et


http://www.rotoworld.com/content/HeadLines.aspx?sport=MLB&hl=226705

rowand33
11-28-2007, 02:30 PM
you've gotta be kidding me.

Delmon Young is going to be destroying White Sox pitching for years to come.

I hate the twins.

hi im skot
11-28-2007, 02:36 PM
This is still a rumor. Nothing is confirmed yet.

Though if Delmon Young comes to the Central...****.

Rockabilly
11-28-2007, 02:38 PM
Garza is going to be great as well...

VenturaFan23
11-28-2007, 02:41 PM
Well at least they'll be trading away one of the piranhas!

Rockabilly
11-28-2007, 02:44 PM
With the Twins trading away Garza and maybe Santana who will be in their starting rotation.

salty99
11-28-2007, 02:51 PM
With the Twins trading away Garza and maybe Santana who will be in their starting rotation.

Boof Bonser, Kevin Slowey, Scott Baker, Carlos Silva (maybe), ummm Anthony Swarzak (still in AAA)

KRS1
11-28-2007, 02:52 PM
Boof Bonser, Kevin Slowly, Scott Baker, Carlos Silva (maybe), ummm Anthony Swarzak (still in AAA)

Add whatever stud prospects they will undoubtedly get for Johan.

WhiteSox5187
11-28-2007, 02:53 PM
Aw man, I don't want Delmon Young in the Central...he's going to be a hell of a player. Didn't he hit a HR in his first major league at bat off of Freddy in '06?

The Immigrant
11-28-2007, 02:59 PM
Boof Bonser, Kevin Slowey, Scott Baker, Carlos Silva (maybe), ummm Anthony Swarzak (still in AAA)

Silva's not coming back but Liriano should.

As for the rumored trade, it creates a hole at SS for the Twins which Nick Punto is not going to fill. I'm also excited to see Garza leave the AL Central.

russ99
11-28-2007, 03:01 PM
What's wrong with the Rays?

That's a decent return, but Young is a guy they should hold onto if they have any hope of contending in the next few years, especially since they could move a surplus fielder to DH.

They should deal soon-to-be FAs Crawford or Baldelli before giving away a phenomenal talent like Delmon Young...

SoxSpeed22
11-28-2007, 03:01 PM
Just when you thought the Rays can't get any dumber. They supposedly trade their best position player, an up and coming shortstop and a wild-card outfielder for a potentially great pitcher, a guy who should be an average shortstop at best and a washed up reliever.
Edit: Rotoworld also says the Rays are opening up room for a guy who makes a living on the disabled list and a guy who makes Chris Henry look like a nice guy.

russ99
11-28-2007, 03:04 PM
Just when you thought the Rays can't get any dumber. They trade their best position player, an up and coming shortstop and a wild-card outfielder for a potentially great pitcher, a guy who should be an average shortstop at best and a washed up reliever.

Especially so considering the insane stockpile of starter prospects the Rays have. Do they really need a starter that bad?

salty99
11-28-2007, 03:05 PM
Silva's not coming back but Liriano should.

As for the rumored trade, it creates a hole at SS for the Twins which Nick Punto is not going to fill. I'm also excited to see Garza leave the AL Central.

Right I forgot about him. Well I know where the Twins can get a SS!!!

WhiteSox5187
11-28-2007, 03:05 PM
Is the trade official yet??

WhiteSox5187
11-28-2007, 03:06 PM
Right I forgot about him. Well I know where the Twins can get a SS!!!
Uribe for Santana?

Rocky Soprano
11-28-2007, 03:09 PM
I would love to have Delmon in a Sox uni.

russ99
11-28-2007, 03:11 PM
I would love to have Delmon in a Sox uni.

Yeah, C'mon Kenny, get in there. We could offer Floyd, Uribe and MacDougal...

The Immigrant
11-28-2007, 03:12 PM
Harris is not an "up and coming" shortstop. He is 27 and yet last year was his first full year in the majors, and he only spent half his time at SS (committing 11 errors in 70+ games). Losing Bartlett's defense will hurt the Twins big time. If they get rid of him, they will lack a true 3B, SS and 2B.

salty99
11-28-2007, 03:14 PM
Is the trade official yet??


No.

KRS1
11-28-2007, 03:14 PM
As for the rumored trade, it creates a hole at SS for the Twins which Nick Punto is not going to fill.

Well, they get back Brendan Harris who seemingly had a breakout performance, so that hole would be filled.

veeter
11-28-2007, 03:20 PM
I would love to see Rincon gone from the Twins. He is unhittable for our guys.

santo=dorf
11-28-2007, 04:29 PM
So am I the only one who notices Young's abysmal walk rate, high strike out total, small slugging, and OPS below the league average, and the fact he is a complete headcase?

I'd rather have our pitchers face Young, than our batters face Garza.

goon
11-28-2007, 04:44 PM
Aw man, I don't want Delmon Young in the Central...he's going to be a hell of a player. Didn't he hit a HR in his first major league at bat off of Freddy in '06?

If I remember correctly, he hit a ball to right field that Dye went over the wall to catch, though I do believe he hit a HR in that game. This guy is a stud, I want him no where near the central.

ma-gaga
11-28-2007, 04:47 PM
You can look at this deal with whatever color-glasses you want. But I like this deal for both teams.

I hated the idea of trading Garza, because, in general, the rumors have all been really crappy ones, like 'Garza for Coco Crisp' type variety. I can live with trading away Garza if they get back Delmon Young.

I'd LOVE this deal if they simplified it to just Garza/Rincon for Young/Pridie. I like Bartlett. ... I have the feeling he's kind of like Brian Anderson, and has pissed off someone in the front office, because the Twins have really 'bashed' this kid for some really dubious reasoning.


I guess we'll just wait to see if this goes through. :gulp:

FedEx227
11-28-2007, 04:51 PM
You can look at this deal with whatever color-glasses you want. But I like this deal for both teams.

I hated the idea of trading Garza, because, in general, the rumors have all been really crappy ones, like 'Garza for Coco Crisp' type variety. I can live with trading away Garza if they get back Delmon Young.

I'd LOVE this deal if they simplified it to just Garza/Rincon for Young/Pridie. I like Bartlett. ... I have the feeling he's kind of like Brian Anderson, and has pissed off someone in the front office, because the Twins have really 'bashed' this kid for some really dubious reasoning.


I guess we'll just wait to see if this goes through. :gulp:

Yeah I remember something about Bartlett coming up in the middle of last year. That's the only bad aspect of the trade I believe for the Twins is losing JB, who's not great but definitely a pretty solid player and much more proven and consistent than Brendan Harris.

Either way, funny to see a Central team pull in a top-flight CFer while the White Sox drool over Aaron Rowand and Coco Crisp.

PalehosePlanet
11-28-2007, 04:56 PM
Yeah I remember something about Bartlett coming up in the middle of last year. That's the only bad aspect of the trade I believe for the Twins is losing JB, who's not great but definitely a pretty solid player and much more proven and consistent than Brendan Harris.

Either way, funny to see a Central team pull in a top-flight CFer while the White Sox drool over Aaron Rowand and Coco Crisp.

Delmon Young is not a CF; I'd be shocked if he didn't move to RF, or possibly LF.

spiffie
11-28-2007, 05:01 PM
Yeah I remember something about Bartlett coming up in the middle of last year. That's the only bad aspect of the trade I believe for the Twins is losing JB, who's not great but definitely a pretty solid player and much more proven and consistent than Brendan Harris.

Either way, funny to see a Central team pull in a top-flight CFer while the White Sox drool over Aaron Rowand and Coco Crisp.
Oh please, if the Sox went after a CF with an OBP 6 points higher than the anti-Christ, Darin Erstad, had last year all the usual suspects on this board would have a collective aneurysm. All I see is people *****ing that Aaron Rowand is a crappy player and who would want him, and now Delmon Young and his 724 OPS are considered "top-flight"?

The Immigrant
11-28-2007, 05:05 PM
Oh please, if the Sox went after a CF with an OBP 6 points higher than the anti-Christ, Darin Erstad, had last year all the usual suspects on this board would have a collective aneurysm. All I see is people *****ing that Aaron Rowand is a crappy player and who would want him, and now Delmon Young and his 724 OPS are considered "top-flight"?

:thumbsup:

Not to mention all of the *****ing you would see around here if KW traded a "stud" pitching prospect like Garza, a "proven SS" like Bartlett and a "reliable reliever" like Rincon to get Young and his 127 SO / 13 HR line.

FedEx227
11-28-2007, 05:20 PM
Oh please, if the Sox went after a CF with an OBP 6 points higher than the anti-Christ, Darin Erstad, had last year all the usual suspects on this board would have a collective aneurysm. All I see is people *****ing that Aaron Rowand is a crappy player and who would want him, and now Delmon Young and his 724 OPS are considered "top-flight"?

Yes one full MLB season is a sure way to detect everything about a player.

He won't get better or worse, he'll stay right where he's at.

santo=dorf
11-28-2007, 05:26 PM
Yes one full MLB season is a sure way to detect everything about a player.

He won't get better or worse, he'll stay right where he's at.
So you don't have a problem with Owens starting in CF next year?

Lip Man 1
11-28-2007, 05:41 PM
ESPN.com also is saying the Rays are about to sign Troy Percival. He had a 1.80 ERA with the Cardinals in 07.

Lip

BadBobbyJenks
11-28-2007, 08:03 PM
Harris is not an "up and coming" shortstop. He is 27 and yet last year was his first full year in the majors, and he only spent half his time at SS (committing 11 errors in 70+ games). Losing Bartlett's defense will hurt the Twins big time. If they get rid of him, they will lack a true 3B, SS and 2B.


Yeah he was a stop gap at best for reid brignac(hes the up and coming shortstop)

soxinem1
11-28-2007, 08:40 PM
If this happens, Crawford is off the market.

TB gets a nice boost to the pitching staff.

MIN more than adequately fills CF and SS.

I would like it for both teams.

Sockinchisox
11-28-2007, 08:54 PM
Deal is done according to the St. Peteresburgh Times, but it might not be a 6 player trade anymore.

http://blogs.tampabay.com/rays/2007/11/rays-twins-clos.html

California Sox
11-28-2007, 09:34 PM
Ugh. Mauer, Young, and Morneau in the middle of the Twins order for years.

Personally, I like Minny's side of this deal. Young pitchers like Garza are still something of a crapshoot. But it just goes to show you what a productive farm system can do for you.

Sockinchisox
11-28-2007, 09:43 PM
Rays got one of the top relief pitching prospects in baseball instead of Rincon.

Eduardo Morlan, it's a little better for the Rays now, but I'm not looking forward to the Twin's 2-3-4-5 for the next 10 or so years.

FedEx227
11-28-2007, 10:20 PM
So you don't have a problem with Owens starting in CF next year?

Apples and oranges.

Owens couldn't put up Young's minor league numbers with a pitching machine.

salty99
11-28-2007, 10:21 PM
Yup the deal is done. 6 players involved

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3131988

Jerko
11-28-2007, 10:26 PM
*** Otis why didn't you tell us about this one?

We're *****ing about Crawford's "intangibles" but are ****ting our pants because the Twins got Young? He'll do something stupid sooner or later.

PalehosePlanet
11-28-2007, 10:27 PM
Rays got one of the top relief pitching prospects in baseball instead of Rincon.

Eduardo Morlan, it's a little better for the Rays now, but I'm not looking forward to the Twin's 2-3-4-5 for the next 10 or so years.

Ten years? The Twins do not have a good history of keeping their players. There is very good chance Young will be the only man standing after 5 years.

FedEx227
11-28-2007, 10:28 PM
Ten years? The Twins do not have a good history of keeping their players. There is very good chance Young will be the only man standing after 5 years.

Yeah don't hold your breath that Mauer or Morneau will be there for 3-4 more years, let alone 10.

jabrch
11-28-2007, 10:34 PM
but I'm not looking forward to the Twin's 2-3-4-5 for the next 10 or so years.

I'm looking forward to facing their 1-5 for a long time to come. Once Santana is gone, we are looking at Liriano just off of surgery, Baker, Bonser, Slowey and whatever they get for Santana (Hughes or something)?

MEAT!

Lorenzo Barcelo
11-28-2007, 10:34 PM
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/Headlines.aspx?sport=MLB&hl=226731

Domeshot17
11-28-2007, 10:59 PM
This trade is not good for us on a lot of levels.

Young has a chance be a stud for the Twins

also

This means TB no longer will be looking at Uribe, which increases the likelihood we are just stuck with him unless someone takes him as a throw in to a deal

BadBobbyJenks
11-28-2007, 11:02 PM
This trade is not good for us on a lot of levels.

Young has a chance be a stud for the Twins

also

This means TB no longer will be looking at Uribe, which increases the likelihood we are just stuck with him unless someone takes him as a throw in to a deal


my thoughts exactly....not good

spiffie
11-29-2007, 07:54 AM
Yes one full MLB season is a sure way to detect everything about a player.

He won't get better or worse, he'll stay right where he's at.
He's played well, but there are definite causes for concern that to me make him far from a sure-fire future star. He's pretty much insane, but we'll overlook that. He's shown very little ability to take walks at any level. Other than when he was in the South Atlantic League, he took walks (as opposed to getting intentionally walked) a mere 3.6% of the time. He's shown flashes of what he could be, but then on the other hand he's put up OPS of 750 and 815 in the minors at various points.

I just wonder why it is that Young is assumed to be top flight, and obviously going to improve, but Jerry Owens and the 362 OBP he put up in the minors is considered to be totally unrepeatable?

rowand33
11-29-2007, 08:00 AM
He's played well, but there are definite causes for concern that to me make him far from a sure-fire future star. He's pretty much insane, but we'll overlook that. He's shown very little ability to take walks at any level. Other than when he was in the South Atlantic League, he took walks (as opposed to getting intentionally walked) a mere 3.6% of the time. He's shown flashes of what he could be, but then on the other hand he's put up OPS of 750 and 815 in the minors at various points.

I just wonder why it is that Young is assumed to be top flight, and obviously going to improve, but Jerry Owens and the 362 OBP he put up in the minors is considered to be totally unrepeatable?

Two things:

1) Young is 22; Owens is 26 (or 27, right?).

2) Young possesses natural god-given abilities that Owens will never have. Owens just has speed. Young looks like he'll develop all 5 tools.

Britt Burns
11-29-2007, 10:23 AM
Wow...after the Rays consistently demand ridiculous talent which kills any deadline deals they might make to pick up prospects, they get absolutely fleeced by the Twinkies. Figures. Not only do they give up a premiere talent, but they downgrade at SS to boot!

Stupid, stupid, stupid. If the Rays lose Crawford to free agency, which you have to believe they eventually will, the GM should be run out of town. This is going to hurt the Sox as well. Young already established himself as somewhat of a Sox killer, and the Twins have a solid core in their lineup...Maurer, Morneau, Cuddyer, and now Young...

oeo
11-29-2007, 10:40 AM
Now we wait for Santana to be traded for 2 pitching prospects and an outfielder, and the Twins will be scary good in a couple of years.

Another reason Kenny shouldn't be looking towards putting a title contender together this year. There's no guarantee everything works out, and if it doesn't, there will be trouble coming in a couple of years for us. We might be consistently finishing in last place with the young teams the Twins, Indians, Royals, and Tigers will have. :(:

The outlook is not looking good for our Sox unless some things change quickly. Let's start by not signing anymore free agents, so we can keep our draft picks...then let's actually draft well (there's an idea).

jabrch
11-29-2007, 10:53 AM
We might be consistently finishing in last place with the young teams the Twins, Indians, Royals, and Tigers will have. :(:


:chickenlittle

We've finished in last place something like 2 or 3 times since 1950. To start predicting consistent last place finishes, with the likes of Clev, Det, Minny and KC in our division is ridiculous.

oeo
11-29-2007, 11:00 AM
:chickenlittle

We've finished in last place something like 2 or 3 times since 1950. To start predicting consistent last place finishes, with the likes of Clev, Det, Minny and KC in our division is ridiculous.

Nice of you to read the rest of the post, jabrch. I then went on to say that things need to change (and fast), in order for that not to happen.

Look at the young players those teams have on their big league squad now, or are on the way. After the Twins trade Santana, that team will be completely stacked. The Tigers are as old as us right now, but at least they have some young players that will be able to step in. The Indians' young squad has already made it to the ALCS, and don't think the Royals are going to suck forever.

And we haven't been a losing team in years because we've been getting production out of our farm system. That's not the case anymore, so don't expect the same to be coming unless we're going to start spending $150 million a year. Look to as recently as 2004, where the majority of that team was from our system. I would give anything to have that now...we can't even get one guy to come up and succeed.

The point of my post was not to say, 'the sky is falling,' but to point out that 'the sky will be falling' unless we start making some significant changes to the minor league system. Every other team in the division will have a young, successful team in a few years...where will we be? Spending like the Red Sox, still with no farm system? I hope not.

jabrch
11-29-2007, 02:03 PM
Every other team in the division will have a young, successful team in a few years...where will we be?

oeo - I still disagree with this. I don't believe that just because those 4 teams have lots of prospects that they are going to be successful. I also don't see our farm system as bad as some make it out to be.

BadBobbyJenks
11-29-2007, 03:24 PM
The twins did not fleece the rays. The rays have what 25 outfielders ready to play tomorrow and no pitching besides kazmir that is ready for 08.

I love the deal for both sides, hate it for the sox having to deal with delmon

sullythered
11-29-2007, 04:11 PM
I don't like the potential waterfall of events that this trade could lead to, as far as the Sox are concerned. That said, I think Garza is gonna be the better player on his own than Young, besides the other stuff they got. The Rays did not get fleeced.

BadBobbyJenks
11-29-2007, 04:13 PM
oeo - I still disagree with this. I don't believe that just because those 4 teams have lots of prospects that they are going to be successful. I also don't see our farm system as bad as some make it out to be.

Its one of the 5 worst in baseball there is no doubt about it.

Beautox
11-29-2007, 04:53 PM
Wow...after the Rays consistently demand ridiculous talent which kills any deadline deals they might make to pick up prospects, they get absolutely fleeced by the Twinkies. Figures. Not only do they give up a premiere talent, but they downgrade at SS to boot!

Stupid, stupid, stupid. If the Rays lose Crawford to free agency, which you have to believe they eventually will, the GM should be run out of town. This is going to hurt the Sox as well. Young already established himself as somewhat of a Sox killer, and the Twins have a solid core in their lineup...Maurer, Morneau, Cuddyer, and now Young...

lol are you serious?

Bartlett > Harris

Sure they're similar offensive talents, but Bartlett's glove is above average and he has range, Harris doesn't.

Did everyone suddenly forget what WS trophies are founded upon? Pitching, Pitching and more Pitching.

The Rays going forward have an amazing core of young SP talent.

Kazmir Shields Garza Niemanann McGee/Davis/Price

That is a stacked shut down rotation that should allow for them to actually make noise in the east.

The DRFO is still high on dukes. Sure he is a head case but if zach grienke can come back and be effective i don't see why dukes can't. Lastly dukes > young 10/10 times. Also lets just say that dukes isn't the answer the Rays have a ton of OF options that are ready, Ruggiano (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Justin%20Ruggiano&pos=OF&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=448605) comps very favorably to Jason Bay and has a better arm and can actually play RF. Johnny Gomes isn't out of the question, and it looks like they're going to stick Rocco at DH and leave him be.

Lastly they got a top 10 relief prospect in Eduardo Morlan he was the heir to nathan; thats huge for the rays, he could easily be up by the ASB next year hes got a 98mph fastball and a 12-6 curve, sound like anyone we know and love?

The Rays took a huge step going forward its no longer about prospects and the prospect of the future, this year they make noise and finish +.500

couldn't be happier for the rays.

Jjav829
11-29-2007, 05:41 PM
I like it for both teams, though there are obvious risks for each side.

Kazmir, Shields, Garza and Price could be a dangerous rotation for the Rays in a few years, though there are some big injury risks there.

They have enough offense to make up for losing Young. Even if they have to trade Crawford or Kazmir, they will be getting back top talent.

jabrch
11-29-2007, 05:52 PM
Its one of the 5 worst in baseball there is no doubt about it.


Actually, there is doubt about it.

EMel9281
11-29-2007, 06:56 PM
Now we wait for Santana to be traded for 2 pitching prospects and an outfielder, and the Twins will be scary good in a couple of years.

Another reason Kenny shouldn't be looking towards putting a title contender together this year. There's no guarantee everything works out, and if it doesn't, there will be trouble coming in a couple of years for us. We might be consistently finishing in last place with the young teams the Twins, Indians, Royals, and Tigers will have. :(:

The outlook is not looking good for our Sox unless some things change quickly. Let's start by not signing anymore free agents, so we can keep our draft picks...then let's actually draft well (there's an idea).

Thus it was said, and so it shall come to pass...

Grzegorz
11-29-2007, 08:21 PM
Two things:

1) Young is 22; Owens is 26 (or 27, right?).

2) Young possesses natural god-given abilities that Owens will never have. Owens just has speed. Young looks like he'll develop all 5 tools.

One truth: The game is a team game; the Twins versus the White Sox.

Save McCuddy's
11-29-2007, 10:33 PM
The twins did not fleece the rays. The rays have what 25 outfielders ready to play tomorrow and no pitching besides kazmir that is ready for 08.

I love the deal for both sides, hate it for the sox having to deal with delmon

Spot on. The trade was aggressive and makes both clubs better. The Twins reportedly were willing to deal Liriano in a similar package, but insisted that Upton be included. They made the deal knowing that they have two ace "stuff" guys left in their rotation and plenty of depth. Guys like Young at his price give mid-market teams more wins than a third number 1 starter can over the course of a season.

Additionally, the Twins minor league system (by Baseball America's count) has 21 pitchers that project out to 5 year or longer major league careers. They are crazy deep.

BadBobbyJenks
11-30-2007, 06:39 AM
Actually, there is doubt about it.

Name a positional prospect worth a damn

jabrch
11-30-2007, 09:13 AM
Name a positional prospect worth a damn

We have a very deep farm system on the pitching side. So to say we have one of the 5 worst farm systems in baseball, and there is "no doubt about it" is just flat out wrong.

BadBobbyJenks
11-30-2007, 12:32 PM
We have a very deep farm system on the pitching side. So to say we have one of the 5 worst farm systems in baseball, and there is "no doubt about it" is just flat out wrong.


I didnt see a positional prospect in there.

IlliniSox4Life
11-30-2007, 04:24 PM
Well, our fans may attack umps, but at least our players dont.

jabrch
11-30-2007, 04:46 PM
I didnt see a positional prospect in there.

If you'd have said that we don't have many positional prospects, that would have been very different than saying that with no doubt, we have one of the 5 worst farm systems.

Jerome
11-30-2007, 05:28 PM
Yes one full MLB season is a sure way to detect everything about a player.

He won't get better or worse, he'll stay right where he's at.

yeah if a player's not a stud by his rookie year, give up on him. especially CF prospects.

FedEx227
11-30-2007, 05:41 PM
yeah if a player's not a stud by his rookie year, give up on him. especially CF prospects.

Even when he puts up very respectable numbers.

Cut the cord, sign Preston Wilson.

BadBobbyJenks
11-30-2007, 07:40 PM
If you'd have said that we don't have many positional prospects, that would have been very different than saying that with no doubt, we have one of the 5 worst farm systems.


Even with the decent young pitching we have, I think it still is. We will see what Baseball America slates the sox system in their upcoming handbook.

BadBobbyJenks
12-05-2007, 10:30 AM
If you'd have said that we don't have many positional prospects, that would have been very different than saying that with no doubt, we have one of the 5 worst farm systems.


well we are about to be ranked 29th out of 30th by baseball america, care to defend yourself?