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cbotnyse
11-26-2007, 02:50 PM
http://web.baseballhalloffame.org/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071126&content_id=5556&vkey=hof_news


• Brady Anderson
• Harold Baines
• Rod Beck
• Bert Blyleven
• Dave Concepcion
• Andre Dawson
• Shawon Dunston
• Chuck Finley
• Travis Fryman
• Rich "Goose" Gossage
• Tommy John
• David Justice
• Chuck Knoblauch
• Don Mattingly
• Mark McGwire
• Jack Morris
• Dale Murphy
• Robb Nen
• Dave Parker
• Tim Raines
• Jim Rice
• Jose Rijo
• Lee Smith
• Todd Stottlemyre
• Alan Trammel


No chance in hell Mcgwire gets in.

I'd like to see Harold Baines get in, in my completely biased opinion.

spiffie
11-26-2007, 02:53 PM
http://web.baseballhalloffame.org/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071126&content_id=5556&vkey=hof_news


• Brady Anderson
• Harold Baines
• Rod Beck
• Bert Blyleven
• Dave Concepcion
• Andre Dawson
• Shawon Dunston
• Chuck Finley
• Travis Fryman
• Rich "Goose" Gossage
• Tommy John
• David Justice
• Chuck Knoblauch
• Don Mattingly
• Mark McGwire
• Jack Morris
• Dale Murphy
• Robb Nen
• Dave Parker
• Tim Raines
• Jim Rice
• Jose Rijo
• Lee Smith
• Todd Stottlemyre
• Alan Trammel


No chance in hell Mcgwire gets in.

I'd like to see Harold Baines get in, in my completely biased opinion.
This could be a good year for one or more of the fringe candidates, the ones who have been unable to get over the top. There's no major new candidates on the ballot, so I'm thinking this could be Blyleven's year.

doublem23
11-26-2007, 03:01 PM
Has there ever been a year no one was elected to the Hall of Fame?

I would like to see Blyvelen and Raines get in off this ballot.

downstairs
11-26-2007, 03:30 PM
Has there ever been a year no one was elected to the Hall of Fame?

I would like to see Blyvelen and Raines get in off this ballot.

With the Veterans Committee and the Negro League thing they do now, someone will always been elected somehow. But in terms of actually getting in on the official BBWAA ballot, there has been no one elected in these years:

1996
1971
1965
1960*
1959
1958*
1950*
1946
1945

*Years where no one got into the hall of fame at all in any way.

HebrewHammer
11-26-2007, 06:17 PM
This is probably the worst hall of fame ballot I've ever seen.

WLL1855
11-26-2007, 06:30 PM
I've got a hard time figuring out this ballot. I think somebody will get in, but it could be a surprise.

Guys I would vote for:

Baines
Dawson
Blyleven
Raines
Gossage
Rice
John
Murphy
Smith

This probably seems like a heck of a lot, but in the context of the era some of these guys played in I think they deserve serious consideration and not the quick dismissal half of the voters will give them. I know a lot of the old guys get no respect from the new generation of sportswriters.

Some of the new names on the ballot really make me go "What the hell?" Is there a minimum number of players they have to put on the ballot or something?

Brady Anderson? Rod Beck? Shawon Dunston? Travis Fryman? It is like if you ever had a single All-Star appearance you get on the ballot.

Oblong
11-26-2007, 07:12 PM
Gossage and Blyleven seem like such no brainers to me.

eastchicagosoxfan
11-26-2007, 07:32 PM
Dave Parker is an interesting candidate. His numbers on Baseball Reference make him a borderline player. From 1975 through 79 he was one of the best players in the NL. He won an MVP, and finished third twice in that period. Later with Reds, he had a couple of real good seasons, finishing second in the 1985 MVP race. He won back-to-back batting titles in 1977-78. He had decent speed, and won three Gold Gloves. Parker also had a well publicized drug habit, got real fat, and it appeared he threw away a sure HOF career. Later in his career, he cleaned himself up, and played well in Cincy and Oakland. I'm surprised he doesn't have more people in his corner, at least touting his credentials.

Daver
11-26-2007, 07:32 PM
Gossage and Blyleven seem like such no brainers to me.

Blyleven should have been in years ago, neither of those two will get in though, the voting process for the HOF is joke and has been for years.

I have about the same amount of respect for the baseball HOF as I do for watching paint dry.

Oblong
11-26-2007, 07:46 PM
Dave Parker is an interesting candidate. His numbers on Baseball Reference make him a borderline player. From 1975 through 79 he was one of the best players in the NL. He won an MVP, and finished third twice in that period. Later with Reds, he had a couple of real good seasons, finishing second in the 1985 MVP race. He won back-to-back batting titles in 1977-78. He had decent speed, and won three Gold Gloves. Parker also had a well publicized drug habit, got real fat, and it appeared he threw away a sure HOF career. Later in his career, he cleaned himself up, and played well in Cincy and Oakland. I'm surprised he doesn't have more people in his corner, at least touting his credentials.

wow. I'm glad you posted this. I've never looked at his career like that before. You are right, he was on his way. 3 silver sluggers, top 5 in MVP 5 times.

eastchicagosoxfan
11-26-2007, 07:54 PM
Blyleven should have been in years ago, neither of those two will get in though, the voting process for the HOF is joke and has been for years.

I have about the same amount of respect for the baseball HOF as I do for watching paint dry.
His detractors will point to the following:
Blyleven lost too many games. In a 22 year career, he's 37 games over .500. He was consistently very good, but rarely great. He only had four seasons when he was five or more games above .500. He never won a Cy Young, or led the league in wins. His 287 wins average out to 13 a season over his long career.
That said, his HOF numbers in Baseball Reference make him a no brainer. Blyleven was much better than his numbers.

A. Cavatica
11-26-2007, 08:19 PM
Anderson and Stottlemyre.

eastchicagosoxfan
11-26-2007, 08:20 PM
wow. I'm glad you posted this. I've never looked at his career like that before. You are right, he was on his way. 3 silver sluggers, top 5 in MVP 5 times.

Blyleven should have been in years ago, neither of those two will get in though, the voting process for the HOF is joke and has been for years.

I have about the same amount of respect for the baseball HOF as I do for watching paint dry.

Unfortunately, there's a group of people who believe too many marginal guys are in the Hall, and unless a player gets 300 or 3,000, he's out. No more debate unless you crack one of those milestones. Granted, Frankie Frisch and his Veteran's Committee elected several of the weakest HOF'ers, but their election shouldn't affect other legitimate candidates. Guys like Tommy John, Jim Kaat, and Bert Blyleven come to mind. Dave Parker? He'd be helped a lot if was pushed by same whiny media that pushes Jim Rice.

Daver
11-26-2007, 08:40 PM
Unfortunately, there's a group of people who believe too many marginal guys are in the Hall, and unless a player gets 300 or 3,000, he's out. No more debate unless you crack one of those milestones. Granted, Frankie Frisch and his Veteran's Committee elected several of the weakest HOF'ers, but their election shouldn't affect other legitimate candidates. Guys like Tommy John, Jim Kaat, and Bert Blyleven come to mind. Dave Parker? He'd be helped a lot if was pushed by same whiny media that pushes Jim Rice.

Jim Rice is pretty well hated by the media.

The problem with the HOF voting process is that way to many non active journalists have a vote, you have 80 year old men that haven't watched a game from a media perspective in twenty years voting on players they have no real knowledge of. The whole voting system needs to be revamped, but it won't, and the baseball HOF will continue to suck.

TornLabrum
11-26-2007, 08:42 PM
People I think should get in (if not now, then eventually) or at least deserve very serious consideration:

Bert Blyleven
Dave Concepcion
Andre Dawson
Rich "Goose" Gossage
Tommy John
Tim Raines
Jim Rice
Alan Trammel

If Baines's knees had held out a few more years, then I'd probably have included him, too.

nccwsfan
11-26-2007, 08:59 PM
Hopefully Gossage and Blyleven will get their due this year.

Oblong
11-26-2007, 10:41 PM
I know this might be strange coming from a Tiger fan but if you switch the teams Blyleven and Morris played for then Bert would have been in a long time ago. Morris got the wins but he had a high ERA and I can't objectively say he belongs.

As for Trammell, I can understand why he's not in. It just bugs me when some others are in and not him. I don't think he'll ever make it but if he does I won't complain about it. Sandberg waltzes in but Lou Whitaker doesn't even get enough to stay on the ballot?

But I think Bert's definately the most obvious candidate. This is his time to get in.

WLL1855
11-26-2007, 10:51 PM
...

As for Trammell, I can understand why he's not in. It just bugs me when some others are in and not him. I don't think he'll ever make it but if he does I won't complain about it. Sandberg waltzes in but Lou Whitaker doesn't even get enough to stay on the ballot?

...

I have to agree that it has burned me that Trammell and Whitaker, one of the best pivot combos (outside of Nellie and Louie, of course) never got any respect at all. It is unbelievable that Sandberg was considered by many to be an automatic selection. He was marginal at best in my mind and no where near the epic talent that the media machine of the Tribune made him out to be. Roberto Alomar was a better player than Sandberg and Alomar won't get half the support Ryno got from the writers.

PennStater98r
11-27-2007, 12:28 PM
Blyleven should have been in years ago, neither of those two will get in though, the voting process for the HOF is joke and has been for years.

I have about the same amount of respect for the baseball HOF as I do for watching paint dry.

Would that be interest or respect...

Fenway
11-27-2007, 12:52 PM
This could be a good year for one or more of the fringe candidates, the ones who have been unable to get over the top. There's no major new candidates on the ballot, so I'm thinking this could be Blyleven's year.

Jim Rice should be in the HoF

He tailed off the last 2 years when his lost his eyesight but for 10 years he was one of the most feared hitters in the AL. Fenway cost him 100 homers at least as he would hit liners off the wall that would be out in any other park. I remember one night at Comiskey he hit 2 bullets into the lower rows at Comiskey that would have been singles at Fenway.

champagne030
11-27-2007, 01:14 PM
Fenway cost him 100 homers at least as he would hit liners off the wall that would be out in any other park. I remember one night at Comiskey he hit 2 bullets into the lower rows at Comiskey that would have been singles at Fenway.

I'm sure he hit a 100 routine FO-7's that were homers at Fenway too. He hit more career HR's at home than on the road. I think he belongs when compared to the other LF's in the HOF, but it's no slam dunk.

Fenway
11-27-2007, 01:17 PM
I'm sure he hit a 100 routine FO-7's that were homers at Fenway too. He hit more career HR's at home than on the road. I think he belongs when compared to the other LF's in the HOF, but it's no slam dunk.

Rice was not a pop fly over the Monster hitter..when he connected it was GONE

Hardest ball I ever saw hit by him was off Steve Busby who threw a heater down the middle. Ball was over the bleacher wall in dead away CF in about 3 seconds.

champagne030
11-27-2007, 02:01 PM
Rice was not a pop fly over the Monster hitter..when he connected it was GONE

Hardest ball I ever saw hit by him was off Steve Busby who threw a heater down the middle. Ball was over the bleacher wall in dead away CF in about 3 seconds.

Oh, I know he hit the ball hard and that's one of the reasons he would lead the league in GDP year after year. He also had his fair share of cheap ass homers in Fenway. I saw him hit a popup that floated over the Monster off Steve Stone during the summer of '77.

captainclutch24
11-27-2007, 05:16 PM
Harold Baines
Rod Beck
Bert Blyleven
Dave Concepcion
Andre Dawson
Shawon Dunston
Chuck Finley
Rich "Goose" Gossage
Tommy John
David Justice
Chuck Knoblauch
Don Mattingly
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy
Robb Nen
Dave Parker
Tim Raines
Jim Rice
Jose Rijo
Lee Smith
Alan Trammel

would get a vote from me

WhiteSoxJunkie
11-27-2007, 06:03 PM
Blyleven deserves it. Also, I hope he makes it just so we can stop listening to Hawk complain about him not being in every time the Sox play the Twins.

PennStater98r
11-27-2007, 06:04 PM
Here's my problem with Rice. Regardless of how feared one is over the course of ten years, the milestone numbers have to account for something to be in the hall of fame, and in my opinion if you don't have the longevity of a 20+ year veteran, you need have been well beyond your peers multiple aspects of the game. He didn't break 400 HR, 1500 RBI or 2500 hits. Keep in mind that I am not talking about 500, 1700 or 3000. I am lowering what many consider a player needing at least one of those magic numbers in the milestones.

Okay, you say that his career is cut short by eyesight problems - I'm down with that. I would have voted for Kirby back in the day. Let's look at the numbers that should measure your entire career Avg, OBP and SLG. Rice was again very, very good. He went 298/352/502. That's not exactly the 300/400/550 split that HoF guys consistantly have at least one of. He didn't dominate in any one of the percentages either. He was simply very, very good.

When you look at some of the names around Rice's in lifetime Avg, I see guys like Barry Bonds and Mickey Mantle - that's cool. But they hit 500+ HR in their careers, right (granted Bonds is trash, but you understand my point). Other guys around Rice in lifetime Avg are:

Dom DiMaggio, Cecil Cooper, Pepper Martin, Shannon Stewart and Minnie Minoso - non of which are sure-fire HoF material.

OBP: HoF around Rice's lifetime OBP are Buck Ewing, Bucky Harris, Freddy Lindstrom and Phil Rizzuto. Among those names are dead ball era guys that didn't take walks at all and a guy that got in based on his glove.

Those around him not in: Hal McRae, Allen Trammell, Kirk Gibson and Delino DeShields - to name a few.

I saved the best for last - SLG - after all he was a feared HR hitter, right?

SLG - those around him in: Joe Medwick, Sam Thompson, Bill Terry, Cobb and Killebrew (all higher SLG than Rice), Campanella, Goslin, Banks and Cepeda (all below his SLG). Here's the thing about this list. Most of those guys didn't get in because of their ability to hit HR with the exception of Banks and Killebrew. One guy was the all time Hits leader for over 50 years. Some hit over .400. A couple would have had better lifetime numbers if not for the race barrier (and an accident breaking one guy's back - oh and he didn't make the HoF on sympathy - he won MVP 3 times in 5 years as a catcher).

Guys not in the HoF that have higher SLG than Rice: Strawberry, Ellis Burks, Canseco, Kevin Mitchell and Mo Vaughn. Current players who probably won't make the Hall with better SLG are Jeff Kent (borderline), Scott Rolen, Richie Sexson, Brian Giles, Moises Alou, Nomah and Maggs.

That said, he did win an MVP and finish in the top 5 five more times. That's a plus - big time. Those most comparable to Rice are (* = HoF):

1. Orlando Cepeda*
2. Andres Galarraga
3. Ellis Burks
4. Duke Snider*
5. Joe Carter
6. Dave Parker
7. Billy Williams*
8 Moises Alou
9. Willie Stargell*
10. Luis Gonzalez

Of those not in the Hall, I'd honestly have to say none of the other names will get in. That means Rice's career was most comparable to 4 HoF careers. And many people would call every one of those HoF names on that list above - marginal at best - with the exception of Snider (295/380/540).

It is tragic that Rice's decline was so fast, but I do believe that if your numbers don't stand out like a Sandy Koufax or a Roy Campanella, pity vote can take you so far. I think to be in the Hall, you need to have dominated in one or two aspects of the game for over 10 years. Or you need to have reached the milestones. If you didn't do either of those - I just don't think you made the cut. See:

Dale Murphy 265/346/469 (5 GG and 2 MVP)
Roger Maris 260/345/476 (2 MVP, GG and holder of the single season HR record for over 35 years)
Don Mattingly 307/358/471 (MVP, 9 GG)
Juan Gonzalez 295/343/561 (2 MVP)
Mo Vaughn 293/383/523 (MVP)
Dick Allen 292/378/534 (MVP)

and

Rice 298/352/502 (MVP)

My final assessment is to look at all the names above - guys who one could have made an arguement that they were the best player in the game - over the course of multiple years - not just one season. I ask myself, do any of them deserve to be in the Hall?

I keep coming up with - no.

To me as I look at Allen and JuanGon, I think those guys are borderline - but at the end of the day, I still say no. And if Allen and JuanGon don't belong there - neither does Rice. It's just not the Hall of Really Really Really Good for Five or Six Years (HoRRRGfFoSY). It's the Hall of Fame - Ruth, Mays, DiMaggio, Yaz, Fisk...

PennStater98r
11-27-2007, 06:07 PM
• Harold Baines
• Rod Beck
• Bert Blyleven
• Dave Concepcion
• Andre Dawson
• Shawon Dunston
• Chuck Finley
• Rich "Goose" Gossage
• Tommy John
• David Justice
• Chuck Knoblauch
• Don Mattingly
• Jack Morris
• Dale Murphy
• Robb Nen
• Dave Parker
• Tim Raines
• Jim Rice
• Jose Rijo
• Lee Smith
• Alan Trammel

would get a vote from me

You must be voting for the HoRRRGfFoSY (see the above post).

Bolding who should be in from the above list.

Oblong
11-27-2007, 08:02 PM
Here's my problem with Rice. Regardless of how feared one is over the course of ten years, the milestone numbers have to account for something to be in the hall of fame, and in my opinion if you don't have the longevity of a 20+ year veteran, you need have been well beyond your peers multiple aspects of the game. He didn't break 400 HR, 1500 RBI or 2500 hits. Keep in mind that I am talking about 500, 1700 or 3000. I am lowering what many consider a player needing at least one of those magic numbers in the milestones.

Okay, you say that his career is cut short by eyesight problems - I'm down with that. I would have voted for Kirby back in the day. Let's look at the numbers that should measure your entire career Avg, OBP and SLG. Rice was again very, very good. He went 298/352/502. That's not exactly the 300/400/550 split that HoF guys consistantly have at least one of. He didn't dominate in any one of the percentages either. He was simply very, very good.

When you look at some of the names around Rice's in lifetime Avg, I see guys like Barry Bonds and Mickey Mantle - that's cool. But they hit 500+ HR in their careers, right (granted Bonds is trash, but you understand my point). Other guys around Rice in lifetime Avg are:

Dom DiMaggio, Cecil Cooper, Pepper Martin, Shannon Stewart and Minnie Minoso - non of which are sure-fire HoF material.

OBP: HoF around Rice's lifetime OBP are Buck Ewing, Bucky Harris, Freddy Lindstrom and Phil Rizzuto. Among those names are dead ball era guys that didn't take walks at all and a guy that got in based on his glove.

Those around him not in: Hal McRae, Allen Trammell, Kirk Gibson and Delino DeShields - to name a few.

I saved the best for last - SLG - after all he was a feared HR hitter, right?

SLG - those around him in: Joe Medwick, Sam Thompson, Bill Terry, Cobb and Killebrew (all higher SLG than Rice), Campanella, Goslin, Banks and Cepeda (all below his SLG). Here's the thing about this list. Most of those guys didn't get in because of their ability to hit HR with the exception of Banks and Killebrew. One guy was the all time Hits leader for over 50 years. Some hit over .400. A couple would have had better lifetime numbers if not for the race barrier (and an accident breaking one guy's back - oh and he didn't make the HoF on sympathy - he won MVP 3 times in 5 years as a catcher).

Guys not in the HoF that have higher SLG than Rice: Strawberry, Ellis Burks, Canseco, Kevin Mitchell and Mo Vaughn. Current players who probably won't make the Hall with better SLG are Jeff Kent (borderline), Scott Rolen, Richie Sexson, Brian Giles, Moises Alou, Nomah and Maggs.

That said, he did win an MVP and finish in the top 5 five more times. That's a plus - big time. Those most comparable to Rice are (* = HoF):

1. Orlando Cepeda*
2. Andres Galarraga
3. Ellis Burks
4. Duke Snider*
5. Joe Carter
6. Dave Parker
7. Billy Williams*
8 Moises Alou
9. Willie Stargell*
10. Luis Gonzalez

Of those not in the Hall, I'd honestly have to say none of the other names will get in. That means Rice's career was most comparable to 4 HoF careers. And many people would call every one of those HoF names on that list above - marginal at best - with the exception of Snider (295/380/540).

It is tragic that Rice's decline was so fast, but I do believe that if your numbers don't stand out like a Sandy Koufax or a Roy Campanella, pity vote can take you so far. I think to be in the Hall, you need to have dominated in one or two aspects of the game for over 10 years. Or you need to have reached the milestones. If you didn't do either of those - I just don't think you made the cut. See:

Dale Murphy 265/346/469 (5 GG and 2 MVP)
Roger Maris 260/345/476 (2 MVP, GG and holder of the single season HR record for over 35 years)
Don Mattingly 307/358/471 (MVP, 9 GG)
Juan Gonzalez 295/343/561 (2 MVP)
Mo Vaughn 293/383/523 (MVP)
Dick Allen 292/378/534 (MVP)

and

Rice 298/352/502 (MVP)

My final assessment is to look at all the names above - guys who one could have made an arguement that they were the best player in the game - over the course of multiple years - not just one season. I ask myself, do any of them deserve to be in the Hall?

I keep coming up with - no.

To me as I look at Allen and JuanGon, I think those guys are borderline - but at the end of the day, I still say no. And if Allen and JuanGon don't belong there - neither does Rice. It's just not the Hall of Really Really Really Good for Five or Six Years (HoRRRGfFoSY). It's the Hall of Fame - Ruth, Mays, DiMaggio, Yaz, Fisk...

Nice analysis. Personally I wouldn't give any "bonus points" for eye issues or like what Kirby Puckett had. To me they are still injuries and you can't base anything on what could have happened because I don't know where we draw the line. Injuries are part of the record.

Rice just doesn't cut it for me. Like you said, if a slugger can't hit 400 home runs then he needs to bring something else to the table.

eastchicagosoxfan
11-27-2007, 08:39 PM
Here's my problem with Rice. Regardless of how feared one is over the course of ten years, the milestone numbers have to account for something to be in the hall of fame, and in my opinion if you don't have the longevity of a 20+ year veteran, you need have been well beyond your peers multiple aspects of the game. He didn't break 400 HR, 1500 RBI or 2500 hits. Keep in mind that I am talking about 500, 1700 or 3000. I am lowering what many consider a player needing at least one of those magic numbers in the milestones.

Okay, you say that his career is cut short by eyesight problems - I'm down with that. I would have voted for Kirby back in the day. Let's look at the numbers that should measure your entire career Avg, OBP and SLG. Rice was again very, very good. He went 298/352/502. That's not exactly the 300/400/550 split that HoF guys consistantly have at least one of. He didn't dominate in any one of the percentages either. He was simply very, very good.

When you look at some of the names around Rice's in lifetime Avg, I see guys like Barry Bonds and Mickey Mantle - that's cool. But they hit 500+ HR in their careers, right (granted Bonds is trash, but you understand my point). Other guys around Rice in lifetime Avg are:

Dom DiMaggio, Cecil Cooper, Pepper Martin, Shannon Stewart and Minnie Minoso - non of which are sure-fire HoF material.

OBP: HoF around Rice's lifetime OBP are Buck Ewing, Bucky Harris, Freddy Lindstrom and Phil Rizzuto. Among those names are dead ball era guys that didn't take walks at all and a guy that got in based on his glove.

Those around him not in: Hal McRae, Allen Trammell, Kirk Gibson and Delino DeShields - to name a few.

I saved the best for last - SLG - after all he was a feared HR hitter, right?

SLG - those around him in: Joe Medwick, Sam Thompson, Bill Terry, Cobb and Killebrew (all higher SLG than Rice), Campanella, Goslin, Banks and Cepeda (all below his SLG). Here's the thing about this list. Most of those guys didn't get in because of their ability to hit HR with the exception of Banks and Killebrew. One guy was the all time Hits leader for over 50 years. Some hit over .400. A couple would have had better lifetime numbers if not for the race barrier (and an accident breaking one guy's back - oh and he didn't make the HoF on sympathy - he won MVP 3 times in 5 years as a catcher).

Guys not in the HoF that have higher SLG than Rice: Strawberry, Ellis Burks, Canseco, Kevin Mitchell and Mo Vaughn. Current players who probably won't make the Hall with better SLG are Jeff Kent (borderline), Scott Rolen, Richie Sexson, Brian Giles, Moises Alou, Nomah and Maggs.

That said, he did win an MVP and finish in the top 5 five more times. That's a plus - big time. Those most comparable to Rice are (* = HoF):

1. Orlando Cepeda*
2. Andres Galarraga
3. Ellis Burks
4. Duke Snider*
5. Joe Carter
6. Dave Parker
7. Billy Williams*
8 Moises Alou
9. Willie Stargell*
10. Luis Gonzalez

Of those not in the Hall, I'd honestly have to say none of the other names will get in. That means Rice's career was most comparable to 4 HoF careers. And many people would call every one of those HoF names on that list above - marginal at best - with the exception of Snider (295/380/540).

It is tragic that Rice's decline was so fast, but I do believe that if your numbers don't stand out like a Sandy Koufax or a Roy Campanella, pity vote can take you so far. I think to be in the Hall, you need to have dominated in one or two aspects of the game for over 10 years. Or you need to have reached the milestones. If you didn't do either of those - I just don't think you made the cut. See:

Dale Murphy 265/346/469 (5 GG and 2 MVP)
Roger Maris 260/345/476 (2 MVP, GG and holder of the single season HR record for over 35 years)
Don Mattingly 307/358/471 (MVP, 9 GG)
Juan Gonzalez 295/343/561 (2 MVP)
Mo Vaughn 293/383/523 (MVP)
Dick Allen 292/378/534 (MVP)

and

Rice 298/352/502 (MVP)

My final assessment is to look at all the names above - guys who one could have made an arguement that they were the best player in the game - over the course of multiple years - not just one season. I ask myself, do any of them deserve to be in the Hall?

I keep coming up with - no.

To me as I look at Allen and JuanGon, I think those guys are borderline - but at the end of the day, I still say no. And if Allen and JuanGon don't belong there - neither does Rice. It's just not the Hall of Really Really Really Good for Five or Six Years (HoRRRGfFoSY). It's the Hall of Fame - Ruth, Mays, DiMaggio, Yaz, Fisk...
I like your arguement. I wonder if Rice's supporters would also support Hal Trotsky for the HOF? Urban Shocker? Both had their careers cut short, in Shocker's case, his life in fact. Trotsky suffered migraines, and simply could no longer compete ( that's what I've come to understand, if there's a different story, or more to it, I'm interested ). Trotsky only played 11 seaons, but was really done by the age of 28. The 162 game averages of both Rice and Trotsky are very similiar.

areilly
11-27-2007, 10:41 PM
Jose Rijo

would get a vote from me

That's a nice gesture, but it's the National Baseball Hall of Fame, not the 1990 World Series Hall of Fame.

Fenway
11-27-2007, 11:07 PM
Well done....

Part of me wants Rice in the HoF so Boston will then retire his number. Given the horrific racial history of the Yawkey era Red Sox it would be nice to see #14 up there along with #42.

HoF is all politics anyways....that is how Ralph Kiner got in ( and Rizzuto and many others )



Here's my problem with Rice. Regardless of how feared one is over the course of ten years, the milestone numbers have to account for something to be in the hall of fame, and in my opinion if you don't have the longevity of a 20+ year veteran, you need have been well beyond your peers multiple aspects of the game. He didn't break 400 HR, 1500 RBI or 2500 hits. Keep in mind that I am talking about 500, 1700 or 3000. I am lowering what many consider a player needing at least one of those magic numbers in the milestones.



To me as I look at Allen and JuanGon, I think those guys are borderline - but at the end of the day, I still say no. And if Allen and JuanGon don't belong there - neither does Rice. It's just not the Hall of Really Really Really Good for Five or Six Years (HoRRRGfFoSY). It's the Hall of Fame - Ruth, Mays, DiMaggio, Yaz, Fisk...

PennStater98r
11-28-2007, 09:20 AM
Nice analysis. Personally I wouldn't give any "bonus points" for eye issues or like what Kirby Puckett had. To me they are still injuries and you can't base anything on what could have happened because I don't know where we draw the line. Injuries are part of the record.


I don't know if it's a matter of giving bonus points as much as it is recognizing that if he'd stayed healthy - he would have had a legit shot at 3000 hits. I look to see how many times Kirby had 200 hits (and his two World Series championships) when determining that I think Kirby deserves to be in - I consider the same arguement when reviewing Koufax and Campanella's numbers.

Save McCuddy's
12-04-2007, 12:13 PM
It's the Hall of Fame - Ruth, Mays, DiMaggio, Yaz, Fisk...

Yaz? Yaz in the mix with Dimaggio, Ruth and Mays?

A good portion of your argument on Hall worthiness centers on career milestones. Yaz himself failed to hit 500 Hr's. This is despite the fact that he played his entire career at Fenway where he slugged .503 versus a pedestrian .422 on the road. His 23 seasons and nearly 12000 AB's were not sufficient for him to reach 500 HR's. Ruth managed 714 in 8398 AB's. It makes me shudder to see their two names in the same sentence.

I take the opposite tack in this argument. There has to be some measure of longevity for sure, but the Hall has established one -- 10 years minimum for a career. I think the hall should be about excellence and peak value sustained over a period of at least ten years. Allen and Yastremski frame this debate nicely as they played in precisely the same era. defensively, they are a wash -- Allen gives you average defense at 3rd base early in his career then finishes at 1B. Yaz was a perfect left fielder for fenway then tapered off to 1B and DH.

First the career numbers:

AB HR RBI SB AVG OBP SLG
Yaz 11988 452 1844 116 .285 .379 .462
Allen 6332 351 1119 133 .292 .378 .534

I'll also include the standard bearer for that era, Frank Robinson

Robinson 10006 586 1812 204 .294 .389 .537


Next, I like to employ 550 AB averages to determine what a player gives you per season.

Yaz 550 21 85 5 .285 .379 .462
Allen 550 31 97 12 .292 .378 .534
Robinson 550 32 100 11 .294 .378 .537

Ultimately the question is what do you want for your hall of fame? In my hall I want the best players of each era over a period of at least ten years. In Yaz's era, I don't think he fits that bill. I rate the following well ahead of Yaz:

McCovey 521 career HR's avg. 35 per 550 AB's
Stargell 475 33
Robinson 586 32
Allen 351 31
Killebrew 571 39
Cepeda 379 26
Howard 382 32
B. Williams 426 25

Lucky for Yaz that we don't include:

Aaron ('54-'76) 755 34

At any rate, I'm sure that this data won't resolve the issue. I just wanted to go on the record for peak performers sake. I truly believe that on multiple occassions throughout his career a player should be considered in the top 3 at his position to be hall worthy. Yaz fit that bill 5 times which makes him hall-worthy on my scale. I put more weight on that than I do the 12-15 seasons that he was at or below major league average at his position en route to collecting 3000 hits.

The case for Rice in my opinion depends upon his peak performance relative to his contemporaries. Who are they?

Dave Parker (superior defensively)
Andre Dawson (superior defensively)


Among left-fielders I can't think of a player who broke in the mid-70's and played ten to 15 years and is in the hall of fame. Rice was clearly best in baseball at his position 5 times in his career. Does that get him in? Eddie Murray got inducted at 1st base from this era due to his longevity and career numbers. He led the league in Homers only once and was never as feared as Rice during the 6-8 year stint that they were AL contemporaries. I'm still not sure that this means Rice gets in, but doesn't someone have to get in from the era beginning around '72 and ending in '89? I guess they should start with Dawson.

Save McCuddy's
01-02-2008, 09:24 AM
Here's my problem with Rice. Regardless of how feared one is over the course of ten years, the milestone numbers have to account for something to be in the hall of fame, and in my opinion if you don't have the longevity of a 20+ year veteran, you need have been well beyond your peers multiple aspects of the game. He didn't break 400 HR, 1500 RBI or 2500 hits. Keep in mind that I am not talking about 500, 1700 or 3000. I am lowering what many consider a player needing at least one of those magic numbers in the milestones.

Okay, you say that his career is cut short by eyesight problems - I'm down with that. I would have voted for Kirby back in the day. Let's look at the numbers that should measure your entire career Avg, OBP and SLG. Rice was again very, very good. He went 298/352/502. That's not exactly the 300/400/550 split that HoF guys consistantly have at least one of. He didn't dominate in any one of the percentages either. He was simply very, very good.

When you look at some of the names around Rice's in lifetime Avg, I see guys like Barry Bonds and Mickey Mantle - that's cool. But they hit 500+ HR in their careers, right (granted Bonds is trash, but you understand my point). Other guys around Rice in lifetime Avg are:

Dom DiMaggio, Cecil Cooper, Pepper Martin, Shannon Stewart and Minnie Minoso - non of which are sure-fire HoF material.

OBP: HoF around Rice's lifetime OBP are Buck Ewing, Bucky Harris, Freddy Lindstrom and Phil Rizzuto. Among those names are dead ball era guys that didn't take walks at all and a guy that got in based on his glove.

Those around him not in: Hal McRae, Allen Trammell, Kirk Gibson and Delino DeShields - to name a few.

I saved the best for last - SLG - after all he was a feared HR hitter, right?

SLG - those around him in: Joe Medwick, Sam Thompson, Bill Terry, Cobb and Killebrew (all higher SLG than Rice), Campanella, Goslin, Banks and Cepeda (all below his SLG). Here's the thing about this list. Most of those guys didn't get in because of their ability to hit HR with the exception of Banks and Killebrew. One guy was the all time Hits leader for over 50 years. Some hit over .400. A couple would have had better lifetime numbers if not for the race barrier (and an accident breaking one guy's back - oh and he didn't make the HoF on sympathy - he won MVP 3 times in 5 years as a catcher).

Guys not in the HoF that have higher SLG than Rice: Strawberry, Ellis Burks, Canseco, Kevin Mitchell and Mo Vaughn. Current players who probably won't make the Hall with better SLG are Jeff Kent (borderline), Scott Rolen, Richie Sexson, Brian Giles, Moises Alou, Nomah and Maggs.

That said, he did win an MVP and finish in the top 5 five more times. That's a plus - big time. Those most comparable to Rice are (* = HoF):

1. Orlando Cepeda*
2. Andres Galarraga
3. Ellis Burks
4. Duke Snider*
5. Joe Carter
6. Dave Parker
7. Billy Williams*
8 Moises Alou
9. Willie Stargell*
10. Luis Gonzalez

Of those not in the Hall, I'd honestly have to say none of the other names will get in. That means Rice's career was most comparable to 4 HoF careers. And many people would call every one of those HoF names on that list above - marginal at best - with the exception of Snider (295/380/540).

It is tragic that Rice's decline was so fast, but I do believe that if your numbers don't stand out like a Sandy Koufax or a Roy Campanella, pity vote can take you so far. I think to be in the Hall, you need to have dominated in one or two aspects of the game for over 10 years. Or you need to have reached the milestones. If you didn't do either of those - I just don't think you made the cut. See:

Dale Murphy 265/346/469 (5 GG and 2 MVP)
Roger Maris 260/345/476 (2 MVP, GG and holder of the single season HR record for over 35 years)
Don Mattingly 307/358/471 (MVP, 9 GG)
Juan Gonzalez 295/343/561 (2 MVP)
Mo Vaughn 293/383/523 (MVP)
Dick Allen 292/378/534 (MVP)

and

Rice 298/352/502 (MVP)

My final assessment is to look at all the names above - guys who one could have made an arguement that they were the best player in the game - over the course of multiple years - not just one season. I ask myself, do any of them deserve to be in the Hall?

I keep coming up with - no.

To me as I look at Allen and JuanGon, I think those guys are borderline - but at the end of the day, I still say no. And if Allen and JuanGon don't belong there - neither does Rice. It's just not the Hall of Really Really Really Good for Five or Six Years (HoRRRGfFoSY). It's the Hall of Fame - Ruth, Mays, DiMaggio, Yaz, Fisk...

Your reasoning is very solid and I can't help but to agree with you to a great degree. It is also my opinion that Allen's candidacy is stronger than Rice's.

Why then, do you have to spoil a well processed post by including Yaz with Ruth, Mays and DiMaggio. Have you ever taken a hard look at Yaz's numbers? It blows my mind how overrated this guy is.

EndemicSox
01-02-2008, 11:08 AM
I'd vote for Bert...and he is probably the only player that will get voted in.

Save McCuddy's
01-02-2008, 11:37 AM
Sorry I ranted on Yaz twice in two separate threads. Didn't realize I already had. Long holiday season for me.

jabrch
01-02-2008, 11:56 AM
Part of me wants Rice in the HoF so Boston will then retire his number.

That's simply a horrible reason to want a guy in the HOF.

Using the race card as a reason for putting someone in the HOF is nearly as offensive to me as using it as a reason to exclude him.

Oblong
01-02-2008, 12:12 PM
Why can't Boston just retire his number without the HOF further sullying it's institution? If they don't want to retire non HOFer's then that's their problem, not baseball's problem.

PennStater98r
01-02-2008, 01:05 PM
Yaz? Yaz in the mix with Dimaggio, Ruth and Mays?

If you would keep in mind that the context of my post was based on Fenway making an argument that Rice should be in - so I specificly mentioned Yaz, Williams and Fisk (all Red Sox icons) to appeal to the side of him that would think, "Okay, Rice isn't in the same league with those other BoSox ballplayers.

Also, you simply glossed over in your reply on Yaz that he did collect over 3000 hits in his career - and for better or worse it fits to my argument that you need at least one of the milestones - which he has and Rice does not - not even by soft standards. Furthermore, I think 3000 hits holds more water than 500 HR - even prior to the steroid era.

Though they're completely different players Wouldn't Rickey Henderson be the best Left Fielder of the era of which you speak? Should we lump all outfielders together instead of saying there should be X number of LF, CF and RF that go in the Hall from each "era?"

Yaz was just a different kind of player than Rice. He was more rounded imo. He did hit a Triple Crown (the last one to do it no less) while winning an MVP - he clearly was the best player at his position in '67. Yaz is a clear case of someone that hung around too long and let his percentages slip in the final years of his career, but I still believe he's All Hall. I have to say... 3000 hits. That means a lot more to me than just shy of 400 homeruns.

Other Yaz tidbits:

MVP top 20 = 12 times
MVP top 10 = 5 times
All-Star = 13 times
Gold Gloves = 7 times
Top 10 in Hitting = 9 times
Batting Champ = 3 times
OBP Leader = 5 times (top 10 = 10 times)

10 Most Comparable Players:

1. Dave Winfield*
2. Eddie Murray*
3. Cal Ripken Jr.*
4. Rafael Palmeiro
5. Stan Musial*
6. Al Kaline*
7. Frank Robinson*
8. Mel Ott*
9. Harold Baines
10. George Brett*

Of the players he compares to the most, only one won't go to the Hall based only on career numbers, and that is Baines. Palmeiro may go - and he may not. If there was not the steroid scandal associated to him, his numbers alone get him in imo. The longevity does have to count for something, and I do think Yaz - though he benefited from Fenway - did have a high enough peak to go with his career stats to make him a first ballot HoF.

Save McCuddy's
01-02-2008, 02:57 PM
I wasn't comparing him to Rice. Just hate to see Ruth, Mays, and DiMaggio's greatness dilluted by co-mentioning Yaz with them.

PennStater98r
01-02-2008, 05:55 PM
I wasn't comparing him to Rice. Just hate to see Ruth, Mays, and DiMaggio's greatness dilluted by co-mentioning Yaz with them.

Sure - you're thinking of the short-short list:

Cobb, Gehrig, Ruth, Mays, T. Williams and BigHurt! (there's the guy we can talk about peak (pique) performances).

Yaz probably belongs on the list that has - Reggie Jackson, Stan Musial, George Brett and Cal Ripken Jr. They're the next tier imo.

Tragg
01-02-2008, 06:07 PM
I never thought of Blyleven as a great pitcher. But he was really good and played a long time. But that standard of greatness isn't really applicable as many good not great players get in. Nolan Ryan wasn't very much more than a .500 pitcher either, so I don't hold that against him. He's not Steve Carlton Hall of Fame worthy, but he is Phil Niekro hall of fame worthy.

I'd put Raines in.

How is Concepcion still on the ballot? He gets a sufficient percentage of votes?

batmanZoSo
01-02-2008, 06:30 PM
Raines is a no doubter albeit not necessarily first ballot...and not realistically either. But he belongs in down the road and he'll be wearing a Nationals cap I guess.

Railsplitter
01-02-2008, 07:08 PM
Has Mattingly been hurt by being a rare Yankee who never played in a World Series?

sox1970
01-02-2008, 07:22 PM
Has Mattingly been hurt by being a rare Yankee who never played in a World Series?

Oh yeah, bigtime. If he played in postseasons/World Series, he'd be in. Very similar to Kirby Puckett numbers-wise, without the postseason.

Grzegorz
01-02-2008, 08:50 PM
Yaz probably belongs on the list that has - Reggie Jackson, Stan Musial, George Brett and Cal Ripken Jr. They're the next tier imo.

'The Man' was better than any on that list...

batmanZoSo
01-02-2008, 09:19 PM
Has Mattingly been hurt by being a rare Yankee who never played in a World Series?

That and he doesn't belong. It's more that there's an argument because he was a Yankee. If he'd played for Seattle, it wouldn't be a debate.

Maybe if he were a catcher, you could make an argument based on numbers. He had maybe 4 years where he put up HOF numbers. Overall he hit a mere 220 in homers at first base in the 80's and his .307 average doesn't offset that, nor are is OBP or OPS+ impressive.

Denied.

misty60481
01-02-2008, 09:57 PM
Yaz probably belongs on the list that has - Reggie Jackson, Stan Musial, George Brett and Cal Ripken Jr. They're the next tier imo.
__________________
If you dont think Stan Musial belongs on the top list you must have never seen him play or looked at his records. Much as I like Big Frank I think Musial was better.

Fenway
01-02-2008, 10:30 PM
Why can't Boston just retire his number without the HOF further sullying it's institution? If they don't want to retire non HOFer's then that's their problem, not baseball's problem.


The Red Sox employ a rather strict policy on retiring uniform numbers; to be considered, you need first to have played a minimum of ten years with the team and you must also be elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame. At one point, there was also a requirement in place that a player had to finish his career with the Red Sox, but that rule was dropped after Fisk was elected to the Hall in 2000.

That's simply a horrible reason to want a guy in the HOF.

Using the race card as a reason for putting someone in the HOF is nearly as offensive to me as using it as a reason to exclude him.

I think Jim Ed deserves to be in....the debate here and elsewhere shows he is the classic borderline case. Sad fact of life is when discussing Red Sox baseball of the Yawkey era you have to talk about race. In Rice's case race was the elephant in the room as no matter what he did Fred Lynn was considered better.

Save McCuddy's
01-02-2008, 10:32 PM
The Red Sox employ a rather strict policy on retiring uniform numbers; to be considered, you need first to have played a minimum of ten years with the team and you must also be elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame. At one point, there was also a requirement in place that a player had to finish his career with the Red Sox, but that rule was dropped after Fisk was elected to the Hall in 2000.



I think Jim Ed deserves to be in....the debate here and elsewhere shows he is the classic borderline case. Sad fact of life is when discussing Red Sox baseball of the Yawkey era you have to talk about race. In Rice's case race was the elephant in the room as no matter what he did Fred Lynn was considered better.

Lynn was better -- no matter what color.

jabrch
01-03-2008, 10:09 AM
The Red Sox employ a rather strict policy on retiring uniform numbers; to be considered, you need first to have played a minimum of ten years with the team and you must also be elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame.

Then screw the Red Sox and their own strict policies. Jim Rice needs to earn his way in - and the Red Sox internal sillyness has no bearing on that.


I think Jim Ed deserves to be in....the debate here and elsewhere shows he is the classic borderline case. Sad fact of life is when discussing Red Sox baseball of the Yawkey era you have to talk about race. In Rice's case race was the elephant in the room as no matter what he did Fred Lynn was considered better.

As long as you are the only one hear bringing it up, then you have to keep talking about it. But nobody gives a damn here what race he is except you. His blackness, whiteness, greeness or blueness should have zero bearing on his entry to the HOF, and the fact that people continue to bring it up only goes futher to show that the bleeeding heart liberals and the race baiters have turned the tide the other way so that now Race is an issue in nearly every discussion - even ones that clearly shouldn't be.

jabrch
01-03-2008, 10:13 AM
While on the topic of the boarderline people - I'd group Albert Belle with them. His numbers are equal or better than Rice's. He had 6 amazing seasons. He never had the luxury of Fenway Park. How about Carlos Delgado? What about Fred McGriff?

My thoughts...

Rice - NO
Belle - NO
Delgado - NO
McGriff - NO

jabrch
01-03-2008, 10:20 AM
Lynn was better -- no matter what color.

I'd agree with that. Rice had a few better years at the dish. Lynn was more consistent (.280/.360/.480 with 20-25 HRs) for longer (about 15 years vs 10 for Rice). But their career numbers are similar offensively. With the glove, I recall Lynn as one of the better Cfs in his era. If I recall, Rice was an average RF in terms of range, but had a + arm - not nearly the overall OF that Lynn was.

Either way - both belong outside any HOF discussion.

PennStater98r
01-03-2008, 02:04 PM
Rice - NO
Belle - NO
Delgado - Maybe
McGriff - NO

Fixed that for you. His career isn't over yet.

If he retired today - no - he's not in, but if he retires in 2 or 3 years and he has 69+ more homeruns added to his career - he deserves in. Keep in mind his lifetime OBP is .386 too...

Fenway
01-03-2008, 02:08 PM
Lynn was better -- no matter what color.

If Fred Lynn had played his entire career in Boston he would be in Cooperstown. However Haywood Sullivan wanted him gone along with Burrelson and Fisk and mailed the contracts late in December of 1980. Boston was able to salvage a trade with Anaheim before the arbitrator ruled....which is how Fisk wound up in Chicago.

Haywood had a way of dumping people...that is why Hawk came to Chicago as well.

Fenway
01-03-2008, 03:02 PM
You have to look at this considering Boston's history with race.

If Tom Yawkey wasn't racist he would have most likely gotten his World Series win in 1967. Boston would have won the pennant much easier than on the last day EXCEPT Yawkey ordered Dick O'Connell to banish Earl Wilson in 1966 for a bag of balls. The reason? Wilson complained that the team was giving players passes to "whites only" bars in Winter Haven. That policy would continue for another 10 years. If Wilson is on that 67 Boston team...they win the series.

Wilson would win 22 games for the Tigers in 67.

Other blacks on the 67 team had problems (George Scott, Reggie Smith and Joe Foy ) with ownership and the media. The Boston sports writers of that time were not going to anger Yawkey because they liked the free food and booze at Fenway too much.

The media started to change in the early 70's when the late Ray Fitzgerald, Bob Ryan and Peter Gammons were hired by the Globe. Lynn was more popular with the writers because he would talk to them, Rice would not.

Rice was the first superstar Black player that Boston developed and kept. I would like to say his race did not play into it but it did.


Then screw the Red Sox and their own strict policies. Jim Rice needs to earn his way in - and the Red Sox internal sillyness has no bearing on that.

As long as you are the only one hear bringing it up, then you have to keep talking about it. But nobody gives a damn here what race he is except you. His blackness, whiteness, greeness or blueness should have zero bearing on his entry to the HOF, and the fact that people continue to bring it up only goes futher to show that the bleeeding heart liberals and the race baiters have turned the tide the other way so that now Race is an issue in nearly every discussion - even ones that clearly shouldn't be.

ode to veeck
01-03-2008, 03:05 PM
I'd take Minnie Minoso over Rice in a heartbeat