PDA

View Full Version : Good Luck To These 4 guys


Rockabilly
11-26-2007, 01:57 PM
Baines, Raines, Gossage and John on hoping they make it to the baseball HOF.. I'm sure they're long shots but hopefully they get in..

Does anyone think any of them will get in.. I can see maybe Gossage

TDog
11-26-2007, 02:05 PM
Baines, Raines, Gossage and John on hoping they make it to the baseball HOF.. I'm sure they're long shots but hopefully they get in..

Does anyone think any of them will get in.. I can see maybe Gossage

Gossage was a Yankee, which helps. John was a Yankee, too, but he wasn't big as a Yankee.

I think Gossage is the only one with a decent shot this year. I hope Baines picks up more votes and more people gradually come to realize that he belongs in the Hall of Fame.

VeeckAsInWreck
11-26-2007, 02:26 PM
As much as it hurts I don't see Baines getting in any time soon. He spent too much of his career as a DH. and unless you're Frank Thomas there is no other DH that is getting into the hall. Maybe Edgar Martinez.

Gossage has the best shot of that group to get in. Aside from being a Yankee he was one of the best closers of his time.

Raines is one I'd like to see get in, I don't think it will be on the first ballot though.

Tommy John, I don't think he'll get in. For as good as a pitcher that he was back in the day, today's fans know him more as a surgery.

voodoochile
11-26-2007, 02:43 PM
Gossage was a Yankee, which helps. John was a Yankee, too, but he wasn't big as a Yankee.

I think Gossage is the only one with a decent shot this year. I hope Baines picks up more votes and more people gradually come to realize that he belongs in the Hall of Fame.

Haaarold not getting into the HOF would be a travesty. His numbers are definitely HOF worthy. Eventually the writers are going to have to get over their DH bias. If a defensive player can win the Heisman, a DH should be able to get into the HOF.

tstrike2000
11-26-2007, 03:47 PM
Harold does have the worthy numbers for the Hall but unfortunately will proabably never make it. It's guys like Baines, Gossage, John, and Blyleven who are right on that cusp of the HOF type of careers that will fall short.

WSox597
11-26-2007, 03:55 PM
Well, Baines should get in if that whining Billy Williams got in. Their stats are similar, and when Baines did play the field he was a better fielder than Williams.

"Sweet-swinging" Billy has almost the same stats as Harold according to Baseball reference. 426 to 389 HRs is the only real lead.

It's mostly politics, like most things of this nature. Harold wouldn't campaign for it in a million years, unlike others. He's just too quiet.

Williams, on the other hand, whined his way in. Kind of like Santo is trying nowadays. I guess he saw that sometimes it works if you snivel and whine. Squeaky wheel and all that.

Daver
11-26-2007, 04:02 PM
Well, Baines should get in if that whining Billy Williams got in. Their stats are similar, and when Baines did play the field he was a better fielder than Williams.

"Sweet-swinging" Billy has almost the same stats as Harold according to Baseball reference. 426 to 389 HRs is the only real lead.

It's mostly politics, like most things of this nature. Harold wouldn't campaign for it in a million years, unlike others. He's just too quiet.

Williams, on the other hand, whined his way in. Kind of like Santo is trying nowadays. I guess he saw that sometimes it works if you snivel and whine. Squeaky wheel and all that.

Billy Pierce has numbers very similar to Don Drysdale's, Drysdale is in and Pierce is forever on the outside looking in.

Paulwny
11-26-2007, 04:10 PM
Billy Pierce has numbers very similar to Don Drysdale's, Drysdale is in and Pierce is forever on the outside looking in.

One thing that helps is a push (publicity) by a local team's press. The push doesn't exist for ex sox players in Chi.

HomeFish
11-26-2007, 09:25 PM
Every schoolchild knows the name of Tommy John. He'll be long-remembered even if he doesn't get into the HoF.

spiffie
11-26-2007, 09:44 PM
Well, Baines should get in if that whining Billy Williams got in. Their stats are similar, and when Baines did play the field he was a better fielder than Williams.

"Sweet-swinging" Billy has almost the same stats as Harold according to Baseball reference. 426 to 389 HRs is the only real lead.

It's mostly politics, like most things of this nature. Harold wouldn't campaign for it in a million years, unlike others. He's just too quiet.

Williams, on the other hand, whined his way in. Kind of like Santo is trying nowadays. I guess he saw that sometimes it works if you snivel and whine. Squeaky wheel and all that.
Actually, Williams, when compared to his contemporaries (which to me is a much more meaningful way of looking at things), compares more favorably than Baines, painful as that is. Baines was my favorite player growing up, but I feel like Harold is a good example of the player just one notch below HOF worthiness.

Williams:
OPS+ - 130
Black ink - 18 (avg HOF = 27)
Gray ink - 208 (avg HOF = 144)
HOF standards - 48 (avg HOF = 50)
HOF Monitor - 121.5 (avg HOF = 100)
Top 10 finishes in (led league in):
MVP - 3 (2 runner ups)
BA - 4 (1)
OBP - 4
SLG - 7 (1)
OPS - 7 (1)
Runs - 9 (1)
Hits - 10 (1)
Bases - 11 (3)
2B - 7
3B - 4
HR - 9
RBI - 8
BB - 5
OPS+ - 6 (1)

Baines:
OPS+ - 120
Black ink - 3 (avg HOF = 27)
Gray ink - 40 (avg HOF = 144)
HOF standards - 44 (avg HOF = 50)
HOF monitor - 66.5 (avg HOF = 100)
Top 10s:
MVP - 2 (10th place, 9th place)
AVG - 3
OBP - 1
SLG - 1 (1)
OPS - 3
Hits - 1
Bases - 2
2B - 1
3B - 3
HR - 1
RBI - 2
OPS+ - 4

While it wouldn't be the worst induction by a long shot, Harold seems to be a guy who was good for a long time, and racked up some good career numbers in the counting stats because he played for a very long time. One of the two things he ever led the league in was being oldest player his final year. If Harold got in as a Sox fan, and a Harold fan, I would be overjoyed. I would not however be able to argue much with anyone who challenged whether he should be in there or not.

Lip Man 1
11-26-2007, 10:18 PM
I spoke with Goose a few weeks ago trying to line up a WSI interview. He's confident but isn't counting his chickens before they hatch on the hall.

Lip

chaerulez
11-26-2007, 10:20 PM
Actually, Williams, when compared to his contemporaries (which to me is a much more meaningful way of looking at things), compares more favorably than Baines, painful as that is. Baines was my favorite player growing up, but I feel like Harold is a good example of the player just one notch below HOF worthiness.

Williams:
OPS+ - 130
Black ink - 18 (avg HOF = 27)
Gray ink - 208 (avg HOF = 144)
HOF standards - 48 (avg HOF = 50)
HOF Monitor - 121.5 (avg HOF = 100)
Top 10 finishes in (led league in):
MVP - 3 (2 runner ups)
BA - 4 (1)
OBP - 4
SLG - 7 (1)
OPS - 7 (1)
Runs - 9 (1)
Hits - 10 (1)
Bases - 11 (3)
2B - 7
3B - 4
HR - 9
RBI - 8
BB - 5
OPS+ - 6 (1)

Baines:
OPS+ - 120
Black ink - 3 (avg HOF = 27)
Gray ink - 40 (avg HOF = 144)
HOF standards - 44 (avg HOF = 50)
HOF monitor - 66.5 (avg HOF = 100)
Top 10s:
MVP - 2 (10th place, 9th place)
AVG - 3
OBP - 1
SLG - 1 (1)
OPS - 3
Hits - 1
Bases - 2
2B - 1
3B - 3
HR - 1
RBI - 2
OPS+ - 4

While it wouldn't be the worst induction by a long shot, Harold seems to be a guy who was good for a long time, and racked up some good career numbers in the counting stats because he played for a very long time. One of the two things he ever led the league in was being oldest player his final year. If Harold got in as a Sox fan, and a Harold fan, I would be overjoyed. I would not however be able to argue much with anyone who challenged whether he should be in there or not.

I am a huge Baines fan, but Williams did play in a lesser offensive era. While it would be great for Baines to get in, I don't think it's a crime if he doesn't.

Frontman
11-26-2007, 11:07 PM
This is why I think every team should have its own Hall of Fame/Museum for their players. Then the great players who may not get the nod into the actual HoF can be immortalized forever with their own club.

RadioheadRocks
11-26-2007, 11:43 PM
(Billy) Williams, on the other hand, whined his way in. Kind of like Santo is trying nowadays. I guess he saw that sometimes it works if you snivel and whine. Squeaky wheel and all that.

Absolutely right, WSox. The worst instance is still seared in my mind almost 23 years later, when Williams *****ed and moaned about not "beating out Nellie Fox" in the 1985 HOF voting. That was Nellie's final year on the writers' ballot, where he missed enshrinement by 2 measly votes. To this day I think that was utterly classless on Williams' part.

Save McCuddy's
11-26-2007, 11:54 PM
Unfortunately Harold doesn't quite have the peak seasons that tend to be the impetus for Hall induction. Too bad he didn't get to play in Fenway. He was made for that park.

Rock sure has a shot. He's essentially the same player as Lou Brock minus the 3000 hits due to quite a few less at bats. This guy was down right scary for the first 6 or 7 years of his career. 5th all time in stolen bases and if possibly tops all time in stolen base percentage for those with 500 plus swipes. He stole at an incredible 85% success rate. Henderson was close at 81% and Brock is back at 75%. Don't know if Timmy has the cache, but the numbers justify his induction.

Of all the crimes against non hall of famers, will we one day see the justice of Dick Allen's induction speech? With a lit cigarette I hope.

BainesHOF
11-27-2007, 12:30 AM
An argument could be made on both sides for Baines, but I'm tired of hearing the ol' DH argument that's constantly made against him.

For those who can remember, Baines was a very good right fielder with a strong and accurate arm. He struggled in his first year or two as a very young player in the big leagues, but then he quickly became a defensive standout. A knee injury and repeated operations related Baines to his DH role, not his natural ability. I wonder how many voters know that Baines actually played some center field early in his big-league career. He was most definitely not your typical DH.

And Baines was also one of the best clutch hitters of his time.

Now, Baines was not the equal of Mays or Mantle or Ruth. But many players in the Hall aren't either. Baines was good enough to make the Hall, but many of the voters aren't close to knowlegable enough to give him fair consideration.

MetroPD
11-27-2007, 04:11 AM
Of all the crimes against non hall of famers, will we one day see the justice of Dick Allen's induction speech? With a lit cigarette I hope.

Yeah maybe him, Milton Bradley, and Joaquín Andújar can all show up at once and just have a few beers together........ Allen spent three years with us, he was a bum like the other two mentioned.

Frater Perdurabo
11-27-2007, 06:13 AM
I'm really sick of the DH being used as an argument against players' HOF candidacies.

If the DH did not exist, Frank Thomas still would be a starting first baseman.

If the DH did not exist, Harold Baines would have been a starting first baseman.

Before the DH, teams used first base for a good hitter who couldn't cover a lot of territory. They often did the same thing with left field.

With that in mind, should we use the fact that a player played LF or 1B against them?

Why penalize HOF-caliber hitters for the fact that AL owners decided to make rule change in the early 70s?

WSox597
11-27-2007, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by Daver:Billy Pierce has numbers very similar to Don Drysdale's, Drysdale is in and Pierce is forever on the outside looking in.

Agreed, that is an injustice. Nothing against Drysdale, but Pierce should be there.

Maybe the fact that he played in "flyover country" works against him. Drysdale played on the coast his entire career. One coast or the other.

ode to veeck
11-27-2007, 08:44 AM
Well, Baines should get in if that whining Billy Williams got in. Their stats are similar, and when Baines did play the field he was a better fielder than Williams.


In his day, Williams was an outstanding LF and made tons of incredible catches in the corners of the Urinal, as well as played many more years in the field than did Harold. Harold was a good fielder in his day, but I don't think you can make that statement.

I'd like to see the Rock get in; miss the guy at 1B coach for the Sox. He really got robbed by the strike in his rookie season as he was gonna shatter the single season SB record.

Would love to see the Goose interview Lip!

Pierce and Minnie both are long overdue for the Hall; the voting is a travesty.

Save McCuddy's
11-27-2007, 10:07 AM
Yeah maybe him, Milton Bradley, and Joaquín Andújar can all show up at once and just have a few beers together........ Allen spent three years with us, he was a bum like the other two mentioned.

I should probably ignore your ignorance, but it's better for the board as a whole that posters who have no idea what they're talking about get some education and think twice before embarrassing all of us with ridiculous statements. If you have a problem with Allen for his antics or personality, fine. State it as such.

But to say he was a bum for us during his three year stint? 3 All Star appearances and an MVP would seem a bit better than bum status to me.

soxinem1
11-27-2007, 01:51 PM
Harold does have the worthy numbers for the Hall but unfortunately will proabably never make it. It's guys like Baines, Gossage, John, and Blyleven who are right on that cusp of the HOF type of careers that will fall short.

I think Blyleven and Goose are definite HOF'ers, as they dominated in too many categories to not do it.

Goose is handicapped because of his last five seasons not being a closer, and Blyleven because he did not win 300 games.

TDog
11-27-2007, 03:29 PM
...

If the DH did not exist, Harold Baines would have been a starting first baseman. ...

I had the opportunity to ask Harold once if he could have been a regular first baseman were there not a DH. He said he honestly didn't know. The condition of his knees prevented him from moving laterally. That precluded him from playing the outfield. He could have been, like the pre-DH Tony Oliva, relegated to pinch hitting. I saw Oliva in his prime and I saw him in 1972 when he was the poster boy for the DH. It was sad to see.

As it was, after Harold was traded from the White Sox, he became something of a platoon player. The at bats he lost because teams other than the White Sox often used other hitters to face southpaws prevented him from reaching the 3,000-hit milestone.

As it was, Harold was less than a season away from getting his 3,000th hit. His RBI relative to his hits speaks to his knack for hitting in the clutch.

Paulwny
11-27-2007, 03:40 PM
I'd like to see Harold get elected just to see/hear him give a speech.
One of if not the most quiet people in MLB.

billcissell
11-28-2007, 02:52 PM
Originally Posted by MetroPD
"Yeah maybe him, Milton Bradley, and Joaquín Andújar can all show up at once and just have a few beers together........ Allen spent three years with us, he was a bum like the other two mentioned."

Check the history books, Junior. This "bum" you referred to almost single-handedly saved this franchise from extinction in the early 70s.

Granted, he has his own way of doing things. But he put up some very impressive numbers in a Sox uniform and carried the team on his back for most of '72. People came out to old Comiskey to see this guy hit. The franchise was on life support back then, and Allen breathed some life into the South Side.

MetroPD
11-29-2007, 01:54 AM
I should probably ignore your ignorance, but it's better for the board as a whole that posters who have no idea what they're talking about get some education and think twice before embarrassing all of us with ridiculous statements. If you have a problem with Allen for his antics or personality, fine. State it as such.

But to say he was a bum for us during his three year stint? 3 All Star appearances and an MVP would seem a bit better than bum status to me.
I should probably ignore your ignorance, believing that as whole you have little to no understanding of the hall of fame and the prerequisites to be inducted. I have stated my dislike for Allen's personality and his antics, it was worded quite clearly with the company I placed him with. Reading comprehension, or a lack thereof in your situation, I would deem as a necessary precursor to further discussion.

If you have a personal problem with my opinion of him, then it is exactly that, your problem. To try and smite my self esteem stating I require education on Allen, or that you somehow speak as an elected commitee member of this board, is nothing but a lame attempt by yourself to somehow justify your own inflated opinion of his significance.
Check the history books, Junior. This "bum" you referred to almost single-handedly saved this franchise from extinction in the early 70s.

Granted, he has his own way of doing things. But he put up some very impressive numbers in a Sox uniform and carried the team on his back for most of '72. People came out to old Comiskey to see this guy hit. The franchise was on life support back then, and Allen breathed some life into the South Side.

Junior? Well Ok, I'm 47 years old but sure "pappy", junior will work just fine. I spoke merely of his personal antics and his regards to my feeling of his HOF nomination probability. What you hold in reverance does nothing for me. He does not belong in the hall of fame.

billcissell
11-29-2007, 09:59 AM
I never said he belonged in the HOF.

You were the one who called him a bum. I merely stated that this "bum" was about the only thing that kept the franchise floating in the early 70's.

If you knew anything about the history of this team, then you would know that the Sox were in dire straits during the late 60s and early 70s. And Allen, along with Harry and Jimmy in booth, were about the only things we had going for us.

I understand if you didn't care for his antics. But the man could play baseball - plain and simple.

HOF? Probably not. A bum? Definitely not.

RadioheadRocks
11-29-2007, 02:59 PM
If this keeps up, I think we all know where this thread will be heading.

Save McCuddy's
11-29-2007, 10:22 PM
Metro --

Grammar is one half of the battle. I applaud you for possessing it. Discussing baseball matters with aptitude is the other. Initiating an argument that groups Dick Allen with Milton Bradley and Joaquin Andujar is not a good indication of that aptitude. If you were to have compared him to say, Albert Belle or Jim Rice, your point would have made some sense.

Obviously your most recent post implies that you believe I missed your point that a player's relationship with the media and his off field antics are part of the Hall of Fame's canon for induction. The Hall to my knowledge has no indoctrinated canon for admittance. Whether it does or not, I don't claim to know what it is. However, if it is meant to be a means to categorize the best ballplayers in the history of the game then Dick Allen would definitely get my vote. By all means I welcome reasonable criticism of that point.

Oldschoolsoxguy
11-29-2007, 11:23 PM
Metro --

Grammar is one half of the battle. I applaud you for possessing it. Discussing baseball matters with aptitude is the other. Initiating an argument that groups Dick Allen with Milton Bradley and Joaquin Andujar is not a good indication of that aptitude. If you were to have compared him to say, Albert Belle or Jim Rice, your point would have made some sense.

Obviously your most recent post implies that you believe I missed your point that a player's relationship with the media and his off field antics are part of the Hall of Fame's canon for induction. The Hall to my knowledge has no indoctrinated canon for admittance. Whether it does or not, I don't claim to know what it is. However, if it is meant to be a means to categorize the best ballplayers in the history of the game then Dick Allen would definitely get my vote. By all means I welcome reasonable criticism of that point.

Richie Dick Allen could flat out play ball.He wasn't going to win any
popularity contests with media people or perhaps even in his own
clubhouse,but his numbers are in no way near "bum status".

ode to veeck
11-30-2007, 09:24 AM
for those who want more on Allen, check out Criag Wright's extended piece on him here on WSI: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=11&id=2065

It's a great read. In the early 70s, Dick Allen was the most exciting thing in a Sox uniform.