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View Full Version : Kenny has egg on his face.


It's Time
11-22-2007, 01:55 AM
He just got played by an ex-Twin to drive up his price and he then signs with the team who just traded for Garland.:rolleyes:

Kenny, you had a 90 loss team at the end of the season and you have a 90 loss team now.

Scott Linebrink?

So far, not so good, Kenny.

munchman33
11-22-2007, 02:00 AM
While I wouldn't say Kenny's done by any means, this really does make him look bad. He traded with the Angels to make the team more desirable to Hunter, but in turn Hunter agreed with his critics in assessing the Angels moved themselves into a better position.

TheOldRoman
11-22-2007, 02:01 AM
:chickenlittle :threadsucks :threadblows:

It's Time
11-22-2007, 02:05 AM
:chickenlittle :threadsucks :threadblows:



The truth must be something you don't do well with.

Patrick134
11-22-2007, 02:06 AM
He just got played by an ex-Twin to drive up his price and he then signs with the team who just traded for Garland.:rolleyes:

Kenny, you had a 90 loss team at the end of the season and you have a 90 loss team now.

Scott Linebrink?

So far, not so good, Kenny.


Quality middle relief guys won't wow you with star power names.

oeo
11-22-2007, 02:07 AM
He just got played by an ex-Twin to drive up his price and he then signs with the team who just traded for Garland.:rolleyes:

Kenny, you had a 90 loss team at the end of the season and you have a 90 loss team now.

Scott Linebrink?

So far, not so good, Kenny.

Something tells me if Kenny went ahead and got into a bidding war, and won, you would be whining along with the majority of other people around here that he paid too much. Kenny can't win...

BTW, I second all of the tags The Old Roman posted. This crap belongs in the ****house.

It's Time
11-22-2007, 02:08 AM
Has been middle relief guys won't wow you with star power names.

Fixed! 4 years for Linebrink? Sorry, that's not so good.

oeo
11-22-2007, 02:09 AM
The truth must be something you don't do well with.

What 'truth?' Did I miss something and this thread actually had meaning? Looks like crap smeared on a wall to me.

SABRSox
11-22-2007, 02:09 AM
LOL. WSI is hilarious sometimes.

TheOldRoman
11-22-2007, 02:09 AM
And furthermore, :rolleyes:.

1. What does Toriiiii being an ex-twin have to do with anything?
2. His price wasn't driven up. He came into free agency wanting 5 years/$75 million. That is about what the Sox (and all the other teams) offered him.
3. What does the Angels trading for Garland have to do with anything? He is a fourth starter on the Angels. I'm sure Hunter decided the best 5 years of his life based on the movement of a fourth starter. They played 3 playoff games last year. Garland would have really put them over the top.
4. Scott Linebrink has been one of the best relievers in baseball over the past several years, and there is nobody better than him on the market.
5. Kenny doesn't have a 90 loss team now because they don't play any ****ing games until April. It is not even December, and many more moves will be made. It is one thing to piss your pants and call for the end of the world because the Sox didn't sign a free agent, but you really went above and beyond. Oh, and might I add, :rolleyes:.

oeo
11-22-2007, 02:12 AM
While I wouldn't say Kenny's done by any means, this really does make him look bad. He traded with the Angels to make the team more desirable to Hunter, but in turn Hunter agreed with his critics in assessing the Angels moved themselves into a better position.

How did that trade make the Angels more appealing? That team is absolutely stocked all over the field. That's why Hunter went there. I highly doubt the decision was made on Jon ****ing Garland.

Face it people: this team isn't appealing to free agents right now. Get over it; they were beaten out by a far superior team. Now it's time to move onto Plan B, whatever that may be, and stop whining about it.

TheOldRoman
11-22-2007, 02:14 AM
What 'truth?' Did I miss something and this thread actually had meaning? Looks like crap smeared on a wall to me.OMG, teh Sox R suck. Dey didnt sin Tory and now they gunna lose its all ovah!!!!111!!11

I guess I should leave that to INR.:D:

ilsox7
11-22-2007, 02:14 AM
It's not time.

Patrick134
11-22-2007, 02:14 AM
How did that trade make the Angels more appealing? That team is absolutely stocked all over the field. That's why Hunter went there. I highly doubt the decision was made on Jon ****ing Garland.


Right. If anything Hunter will miss out on crushing Garland's pitching.

TheOldRoman
11-22-2007, 02:16 AM
How did that trade make the Angels more appealing? That team is absolutely stocked all over the field. That's why Hunter went there. I highly doubt the decision was made on Jon ****ing Garland.You honestly don't think Hunter made a decision on three quarters of a million dollars and 5 years of his life based on the movement of a fourth starter? Now yer face has teh egg!

TheOldRoman
11-22-2007, 02:17 AM
It's not time.Apparently, it is time to soil one's self.

It's Time
11-22-2007, 02:23 AM
And furthermore, :rolleyes:.

1. What does Toriiiii being an ex-twin have to do with anything?
2. His price wasn't driven up. He came into free agency wanting 5 years/$75 million. That is about what the Sox (and all the other teams) offered him.
3. What does the Angels trading for Garland have to do with anything? He is a fourth starter on the Angels. I'm sure Hunter decided the best 5 years of his life based on the movement of a fourth starter.
4. Scott Linebrink has been one of the best relievers in baseball over the past several years.
5. Kenny doesn't have a 90 loss team now because they don't play any ****ing games until April. It is not even December, and many more moves will be made. It is one thing to piss your pants and call for the end of the world because the Sox didn't sign a free agent, but you really went above and beyond. Oh, and might I add, :rolleyes:.

Torii played him. When it seemed he was on the verge of signing here, the Angels swooped in.

He's added Linebrink, who, by the way, was AWFUL for the Crew and played a big part in handing the division to the Cubs.

You act as if Garland was some stiff. It was an act of God he won 10 games with that sorry squad last year.

Sure it's early but I am not at all impressed thus far. They are leaps and bounds behind the big dogs, not only in the division, but in the AL as a whole.

ilsox7
11-22-2007, 02:26 AM
Apparently, it is time to soil one's self.

Yea . . .

It's hard to take threads seriously when the OP is on record as thinking Rowand > Toriiiiiii, KW got robbed in the Iguchi trade, etc. It's the complaining mentality. Again, I could post that I am giving away money for free and people would complain.

It's Time
11-22-2007, 02:26 AM
Apparently, it is time to soil one's self.


Too funny!!

:roflmao:

Patrick134
11-22-2007, 02:28 AM
Torii played him. When it seemed he was on the verge of signing here, the Angels swooped in.

He's added Linebrink, who, by the way, was AWFUL for the Crew and played a big part in handing the division to the Cubs.

You act as if Garland was some stiff. It was an act of God he won 10 games with that sorry squad last year.

Sure it's early but I am not at all impressed thus far. They are leaps and bounds behind the big dogs, not only in the division, but in the AL as a whole.

Semmed on the verge of signing here based on what ? Half-assed media speculation and fan hopes ? Get a grip.

oeo
11-22-2007, 02:28 AM
Torii played him. When it seemed he was on the verge of signing here, the Angels swooped in.

If Torii played him, why do you even want the douche here? Torii was playing every team. He went to dinner with the Rangers, he had two meetings with Kenny; the ****er even said the ROYALS had a shot at him. I don't care what anyone says about what a nice guy he is...he's a dick is what he is. Not a guy with good ethics, that's for sure. People have bad things to say about A-Rod, but Hunter takes it to a new level. Not only is he greedy, but he's an unethical son of a *****.

He's added Linebrink, who, by the way, was AWFUL for the Crew and played a big part in handing the division to the Cubs.:whiner:

The offseason is over?

You act as if Garland was some stiff. It was an act of God he won 10 games with that sorry squad last year.You're obviously missing the big picture (not that it surprises me). Garland wasn't going to be re-signed, and we got a huge upgrade at SS for him. How terrible...:rolleyes:

Grzegorz
11-22-2007, 05:30 AM
Torii played him. When it seemed he was on the verge of signing here, the Angels swooped in.

He's added Linebrink, who, by the way, was AWFUL for the Crew and played a big part in handing the division to the Cubs.

Being a GM, or any manager that bids for talent is a tough job. Often your mettle as a personnel manager is not determined by your initial plan but by your contingency.

As for Linebrink he's an experienced reliever coming off a bad year. As we've all acknowledged relief pitching is the wild card when building a team. It's worth the risk.

Mohoney
11-22-2007, 06:19 AM
Hunter would have been nice, but if we end up with Andruw Jones instead, I'm perfectly fine with that.

soltrain21
11-22-2007, 07:09 AM
If anybody has egg on their face - it would be the Angels. Two overpriced CFers in two years?

soxlover
11-22-2007, 07:26 AM
Maybe now we can get Gary Mathewsjr for all you whiners.
I for one did not really care if we got him or not. Lets spend money on pitching.

pagansoxfan
11-22-2007, 07:27 AM
Hate saying it, as I was never one of those ppl obsessed with Rowand, but KW better sig n him, and fast! I think Jones is on the downside of his career, and Rowand is the best of on the market IMO.
Try not to give up on the offseason just yet. It's only the start. After the winter meetings, I think we'll have a cleaer idea on the makeup of this team.

Frater Perdurabo
11-22-2007, 07:32 AM
Please calm down.

Not paying $80+ million and 6 years to overrated defensive CF who also strikes out a lot, GIDPs a lot and doesn't hit for particularly high average isn't the worst thing in the world.

I never thought that spending the wad in one place was a good idea; KW now can spread money around to improve the team in many places.

We all saw that the 2005 team was improved through upgrades throughout the roster, NOT by overpaying at one position.

twinsuck1
11-22-2007, 07:39 AM
If anybody has egg on their face - it would be the Angels. Two overpriced CFers in two years?

You should take a look at the Angels Fan Forums, a
lot of them think this was a bad deal. They said he Is basically the same thing as Garret Anderson. They were hoping to fill the holes on the Infield more than any outfield help.

Frater Perdurabo
11-22-2007, 07:47 AM
You should take a look at the Angels Fan Forums, alot of them think this was a bad deal. They said he Is basically the same hing as Garret Anderson. They were hoping to fill the holes on the Infield more then any outfield help.

Hmmm. Maybe they would give us Shields, Figgins and Kotchman to upgrade at first base? :tongue:

Jurr
11-22-2007, 07:55 AM
Not sure what KW does now. Rowand, probably.

Frater Perdurabo
11-22-2007, 08:03 AM
The worst thing that could come of this is that KW feels pressure to overpay for a lesser player, just to appease the Chicken Littles.

There are other options out there that also allow the Sox to have enough financial flexibility to upgrade the rotation and bullpen.

In addition, unresolved issues remain:

What happens with Uribe?

Who plays 3B, Fields or Crede?

Who plays left field?

Who leads off?

Who fills out the rotation?

Who augments the bullpen?

The winter meetings haven't even started yet.

Making rash judgments in November, well before the winter meetings, and several months before pitchers and catchers report, is asinine and childish.

Bucky F. Dent
11-22-2007, 08:05 AM
"Paging Mr. Rowand. Paging Mr. Aaron Rowand."

Well, we traded him to the Phils on Thanksgiving week '05.

Perhaps we bring him back Thanksgiving week '07.

Madvora
11-22-2007, 08:13 AM
The worst thing that could come of this is that KW feels pressure to overpay for a lesser player, just to appease the Chicken Littles.

There are other options out there that also allow the Sox to have enough financial flexibility to upgrade the rotation and bullpen.

In addition, unresolved issues remain:

What happens with Uribe?

Who plays 3B, Fields or Crede?

Who plays left field?

Who leads off?

Who fills out the rotation?

Who augments the bullpen?

The winter meetings haven't even started yet.

Making rash judgments in November, well before the winter meetings, and several months before pitchers and catchers report, is asinine and childish.
This is a lot more work than we've had in a while. Is it even possible to do this much in one season?

Frater Perdurabo
11-22-2007, 08:16 AM
This is a lot more work than we've had in a while. Is it even possible to do this much in one season?

Yes, it's a lot of work, but it was a lot of work to turn the 2001-2004 Sox into the 2005 Sox, but KW did it.

Let's not panic. Let's see how things turn out. There could even be scenarios where the Sox are world series contenders with Brian Anderson starting in CF. Too many dominoes have yet to fall before we can declare this offseason to be a success or a bust, so give it some time.

Frontman
11-22-2007, 08:18 AM
The truth must be something you don't do well with.

Pot, meet kettle.

Dude, its Thanksgiving. Unless I missed a memo, the baseball season doesn't start for months.

Kenny will still be working deals.

Pasqua's Mailman
11-22-2007, 08:41 AM
The worst thing that could come of this is that KW feels pressure to overpay for a lesser player, just to appease the Chicken Littles.

There are other options out there that also allow the Sox to have enough financial flexibility to upgrade the rotation and bullpen.

In addition, unresolved issues remain:

What happens with Uribe?

Who plays 3B, Fields or Crede?

Who plays left field?

Who leads off?

Who fills out the rotation?

Who augments the bullpen?

The winter meetings haven't even started yet.

Making rash judgments in November, well before the winter meetings, and several months before pitchers and catchers report, is asinine and childish.

Absolutely... I hope KW doesn't panic and overpay for one of the remaining OFs... If they can get either Rowand (hopefully for less than $10 million) or Jones (for 2-3 years) great... if not, take the money you would have spent on Hunter and invest across a number of needs... it worked in 2005, why not in 2008?

Frontman
11-22-2007, 08:43 AM
Absolutely... I hope KW doesn't panic and overpay for one of the remaining OFs... If they can get either Rowand (hopefully for less than $10 million) or Jones (for 2-3 years) great... if not, take the money you would have spent on Hunter and invest across a number of needs... it worked in 2005, why not in 2008?

Agreed. Slipshot signings come from panic; and while KW has never been known to be a panic button pusher, I hope this deal falling through (even if the deal was never there to begin with) that he doesn't go crazy and re-sign Rowand for more than the 10 mil mark a year on a ten year deal or some other crazy notion.

DumpJerry
11-22-2007, 08:51 AM
Maybe now we can get Gary Mathewsjr for all you whiners.
I for one did not really care if we got him or not. Lets spend money on pitching.
:tealtutor:


As a season ticket holder, I"M glad my 2009 invoice won't be increased to cover this obscene contract. Unless Kenny has runny eggs for breakfast, I don't think there is any egg on his face. By all accounts, Kenny made a reasonable offer. He had no control over the Angel's impersonation of the Twin East Coast Evil Empires. I just hope this does not start a trend.

Hunker down
11-22-2007, 09:36 AM
I went on the Sox web-site on it showed that the season starts on March 31. My math tells me that over 4 months from now. Let's see what kind of team Kenny puts together before jumping off the ledge.

chisox77
11-22-2007, 09:36 AM
I'm disappointed, but I will get over it.

There are other options out there, and KW will be dealing. And it's early in the offseason.

:cool:

PalehosePlanet
11-22-2007, 09:45 AM
Torii played him. When it seemed he was on the verge of signing here, the Angels swooped in.

He's added Linebrink, who, by the way, was AWFUL for the Crew and played a big part in handing the division to the Cubs.

You act as if Garland was some stiff. It was an act of God he won 10 games with that sorry squad last year.

Sure it's early but I am not at all impressed thus far. They are leaps and bounds behind the big dogs, not only in the division, but in the AL as a whole.

*****!!! First off, Linebrink is a much better setup man than Garland was a starter. He is a rock solid acquisition; it's not Kenny's fault that the market for setup men, both in money and years, has gone through the roof. Second off, where the hell do you get off saying that we traded for Cabrera to impress Hunter?? We traded for Cabrera because we needed a new SS. Period.

PalehosePlanet
11-22-2007, 09:55 AM
This is a lot more work than we've had in a while. Is it even possible to do this much in one season?

It's not quite as bad as it seems. We need a CF, one more bullpen arm, at least a platoon type LF, and maybe some veteran SP help as insurance. It's early and there are many avenues that can be explored, either via FA or trades.

In fact because of the overblown FA market, it seems that more teams than ever are willing to make trades.

We filled one hole by getting a high quality SS, another hole by acquiring a high quality setup man, and created a hole by trading an established innings eater. As long we keep going 2 steps forward, one step back, we're making up some ground. Hopefully by March, we'll be set. Of course, there will still be some question marks, but I believe KW will keep us moving in the right direction.

AWhiteSoxinNJ
11-22-2007, 09:56 AM
I am still waiting for the article that says the Garland-Cabrera trade was to cut money for Hunter....

jabrch
11-22-2007, 09:57 AM
What a ridiculous thread - led by a bunch of ridiculous posts.

It's Thanksgiving...for the love of god, relax...

DrCrawdad
11-22-2007, 09:58 AM
If anybody has egg on their face - it would be the Angels. Two overpriced CFers in two years?

From what I've heard a lot of Angels fans are not happy with this signing.

itsnotrequired
11-22-2007, 10:03 AM
From what I've heard a lot of Angels fans are not happy with this signing.

My understanding is that Anderson and Vlad will do a lot more DH this season and Matthews will fill in for them. I suppose that could work out but that is still one darn expensive outfield.

Scottiehaswheels
11-22-2007, 10:19 AM
Wonder if the Angels would be willing to trade Willits now? I think he would work out pretty well in either left or center... Willits for Uribe?

soxinem1
11-22-2007, 10:39 AM
Though we overpaid a little for Linebrink, I am proud of KW for not getting sucked into a bidding war, if there even was one. The LAA have bumrushed FA's many times in the past with high-ceiling offers sucessfully, so this is no different. I kind of doubt Hunter wanted to come here anyway, though like many, I was hopeful.

But if going after a second or third choice for CF for a little less frees up some money to get a salvageable LF, another RHP for the pen, and at least a journeyman starter to have another option at the back of the rotation, this may turn out for the best.

Why do I have this feeling that KW will try to go after Juan Pierre again????

guillen4life13
11-22-2007, 10:59 AM
I'll go on the record to say I never wanted Hunter in the first place. I think he's a jagoff playing for the Twins (personality-wise--he's the type of guy who makes the statements that opposing teams post on the bulletin board for motivation). At least when a guy like Pierzynski, who used to do the same says things like that, he can still play mind games because he's the catcher and interacts with opposing hitters a lot and can get into their heads. I hated AJ before I came here but I've always had a stronger dislike for Hunter. I'm glad he's not playing at USCF.

Offensively, Rowand>Hunter. I know both of them are coming off of career years, but Rowand has the higher offensive ceiling, is a year younger, and is a classy person on and off the field. I know he's not quite the same defender that Hunter is, but the money+offense can and should take care of that difference. I don't think he's worth the asking price, and more than anything I'm pissed about the Angels getting Hunter at this price because it drives the market up considerably. Almost like what the Cubs did last year with starting pitching.

jabrch
11-22-2007, 11:17 AM
From what I've heard a lot of Angels fans are not happy with this signing.

After just spending big bucks on Matthews Jr. last offseason - I can't see why they would be.

I didn't like 5/75 for Hunter. There's no way I'd have gone a penny more than that. We can go out and do better with this kind of money.

soxfanreggie
11-22-2007, 11:21 AM
They're even talking about free agent CFs in the middle of the first half of the South Carolina-Penn State b-ball game...game isn't exciting at all so I don't blame them.

To the original post, I don't think he has "egg on his face". A team, that most players would probably like to play for, severely outbid us and probably every other team out there. Sox are smart to get someone for a lot less and use that savings to bolster the pitching staff.

JRIG
11-22-2007, 11:22 AM
After just spending big bucks on Matthews Jr. last offseason - I can't see why they would be.

I didn't like 5/75 for Hunter. There's no way I'd have gone a penny more than that. We can go out and do better with this kind of money.

I don't think 5/75 gets Rowand either, unless he takes a "hometown discoount" to return to the Sox. Even if he does we'd still be overpaying.

If I'm KW, I'm on the horn with KC to see what they might want for David DeJesus. A top of the order of DeJesus and Cabrera wouldn't be too bad at all. Then you can use the money saved to find someone to play LF.

whitesoxfan
11-22-2007, 11:23 AM
Hunter didn't deserve a 5/85 contract. Thank God.

jabrch
11-22-2007, 11:24 AM
I don't think 5/75 gets Rowand either, unless he takes a "hometown discoount" to return to the Sox. Even if he does we'd still be overpaying.

If I'm KW, I'm on the horn with KC to see what they might want for David DeJesus. A top of the order of DeJesus and Cabrera wouldn't be too bad at all. Then you can use the money saved to find someone to play LF.

I'd also call LAA and see what their plans are for Wilitis. He isn't a star, but he isn't making 18mm like Hunter either.

I wouldn't give Rowand any more than that, would you?

18mm for Torii Freaking Hunter. Screw anaheim - let them have him. I didn't like him much at 4/60, but 5/90 is outrageous. Seems like LAA is paying alot for a career year.

We have found a GM who spends money worse than Jim Hendry...I thought 17mm for Soriano was bad - this is nuts.

Jjav829
11-22-2007, 11:39 AM
That's actually gravy. Looks like KW couldn't wait until dinner to get started on the turkey.

WhiteSox5187
11-22-2007, 11:59 AM
I certainly don't think that Kenny is done by any means, but what it appears is that Tori has just said "I think I have a better shot of winning with the Angels than the White Sox." For players that want to win right away, we're not a very appealing team right now and THAT is what hurts.

DumpJerry
11-22-2007, 12:01 PM
That's actually gravy. Looks like KW couldn't wait until dinner to get started on the turkey.
I thought it was a smile at not being called the Village Idiot for over paying a free agent.

If that is what Hunter wanted ($90,000,000), then fine. Just remember, a fool and his money are easily separated.

If I was weighing an offer of $75,000,000 versus $90,000,000 for doing work I'll be done with in most likely less than 10 years, I'd go for the money, too.

Brian26
11-22-2007, 12:01 PM
He just got played by an ex-Twin to drive up his price and he then signs with the team who just traded for Garland.:rolleyes:.

How did he get played if Hunter was talking to four or five other teams, while the Angels just swooped in less than 36 hours ago and offered a contract worth possibly $10 million more than anyone else? The Angels are the ones who drove up the price, and they're the ones with the most risk right now of being "played."

Brian26
11-22-2007, 12:04 PM
I certainly don't think that Kenny is done by any means, but what it appears is that Tori has just said "I think I have a better shot of winning with the Angels than the White Sox."

If "winning" means making $10 million more over the course of five years than any other offer out there, then, yes, Torii wants to "win."

He took the money. Tip your cap and move on.

AnkleSox
11-22-2007, 12:05 PM
I don't think 5/75 gets Rowand either, unless he takes a "hometown discoount" to return to the Sox. Even if he does we'd still be overpaying.

If I'm KW, I'm on the horn with KC to see what they might want for David DeJesus. A top of the order of DeJesus and Cabrera wouldn't be too bad at all. Then you can use the money saved to find someone to play LF.

I think the Royals are actually trying to start a movement towards a winning mentality. I don't think they'd want to trade DeJesus to a division rival without asking for a whole lot in return.

DumpJerry
11-22-2007, 12:07 PM
If Hunter turns into a bust (always a possibility), all those who are angry today will want to name their children after Kenny.

Brian26
11-22-2007, 12:08 PM
*****!!! First off, Linebrink is a much better setup man than Garland was a starter.

I like the Linebrink signing, but I also liked the number of innings Garland ate up. I'm not sure how you can compare the two roles though. If I had to pick a player that is more valuable to the team, it would be Garland (ie the starting pitcher that eats up 200 innings for six years in a row).

TomBradley72
11-22-2007, 12:09 PM
Anaheim overpayed for Hunter (I'm sure they'll love having $18MM in payroll tied up in an aging CF a few years from now)...I believe it was a move to block him from the Dodgers....who with Torre now as their manager...are moving to win back some of the fans the Angels have taken in recent years.

KW didn't get played....Hunter simply found a team that would overpay for him.

DumpJerry
11-22-2007, 12:11 PM
I like the Linebrink signing, but I also liked the number of innings Garland ate up. I'm not sure how you can compare the two roles though. If I had to pick a player that is more valuable to the team, it would be Garland (ie the starting pitcher that eats up 200 innings for six years in a row).
Some of the people I know are raising the possibility that 05-06 were Garland's best years.

Pitching is a funny thing. You just don't know year to year what a guy will give you. It is one of the more mentally intensive positions in the sport. Look at Contreras. When Jose's split finger is working, he's untouchable. When he gives one home run off his split finger, AJ has to practically threaten him with serious bodily harm to get to not shake off the sign.

SoxyStu
11-22-2007, 12:13 PM
How did he get played if Hunter was talking to four or five other teams, while the Angels just swooped in less than 36 hours ago and offered a contract worth possibly $10 million more than anyone else? The Angels are the ones who drove up the price, and they're the ones with the most risk right now of being "played."

Hmm...Could you see it that the Angels "got played" as that other LA team had offered (what is now being reported as bogus) 100mil contract? I can't help but think those two dots connect.

Lip Man 1
11-22-2007, 12:14 PM
When a player signs that quickly with a club after publicly stating two days earlier that he wanted to "wait" until next week so he had time to think about things, that tells you where he REALLY wanted to go.

Oh well.

Still folks out there who can be an upgrade, namely Rowand and probably Crisp although with Kenny you never know how many things he has going on.

I don't think this makes Kenny 'look bad'. He was aggressively trying to improve an awful team. I mean, that's his job right?

And folks are criticizing him for it? Strange.

Lip

jabrch
11-22-2007, 12:14 PM
He took the money. Tip your cap and move on.

He also went to a team that has a very good chance of winning. Can't blame Hunter for it - but certainly can't fault Kenny for not overpaying.

DumpJerry
11-22-2007, 12:16 PM
Has MLB allowed Willie Mays back into baseball? He might agree to less than $15,000,000/year.

Brian26
11-22-2007, 12:18 PM
Has MLB allowed Willie Mays back into baseball? He might agree to less than $15,000,000/year.

I think Jim Landis would give the Sox a hometown discount for 5/$60 mil.:D:

fquaye149
11-22-2007, 12:28 PM
Some of the people I know are raising the possibility that 05-06 were Garland's best years.

Pitching is a funny thing. You just don't know year to year what a guy will give you. It is one of the more mentally intensive positions in the sport. Look at Contreras. When Jose's split finger is working, he's untouchable. When he gives one home run off his split finger, AJ has to practically threaten him with serious bodily harm to get to not shake off the sign.

The difference b/t Contreras and Garland is that Contreras has plus stuff, but sometimes pitches like an idiot. That is a lot easier to have a breakout season with.

On the other hand Garland has GOOD (not great) stuff, but knows how to pitch. That pretty much suggests he's pitched about as well as he's going to...

fquaye149
11-22-2007, 12:29 PM
If "winning" means making $10 million more over the course of five years than any other offer out there, then, yes, Torii wants to "win."

He took the money. Tip your cap and move on.
Well, of all the teams Torii was rumored to be talking to, the Angels have by far the best chance to contend

oeo
11-22-2007, 12:34 PM
Hmm...Could you see it that the Angels "got played" as that other LA team had offered (what is now being reported as bogus) 100mil contract? I can't help but think those two dots connect.

I definitely see that. There was no reason for the Angels to sign him. They already had a stocked outfield; now they're overpaying for another one, and they lost their first round pick.

It makes sense. The Angels were never even mentioned over the last few weeks. Sounds like they heard about the Dodgers trying to acquire him, and just swooped in and grabbed him before the Dodgers could.

HITMEN OF 77
11-22-2007, 12:35 PM
I'll go on the record to say I never wanted Hunter in the first place. I think he's a jagoff playing for the Twins (personality-wise--he's the type of guy who makes the statements that opposing teams post on the bulletin board for motivation). At least when a guy like Pierzynski, who used to do the same says things like that, he can still play mind games because he's the catcher and interacts with opposing hitters a lot and can get into their heads. I hated AJ before I came here but I've always had a stronger dislike for Hunter. I'm glad he's not playing at USCF.


In a way I sorta wanted see Hunter play here, but after thinking about it, your totally right on with this message.

KyWhiSoxFan
11-22-2007, 12:39 PM
KW got played as much or as little as another half-dozen GMs. The job of the agent is to get as much money for his client as possible. That means each and every GM he talks to he has to make it sound like that is the perfect marriage and they will get him. All but one is left at the altar.

For $90-million, the Angels can have him. For $90-million, the Sox would have been hamstrung in their ability to pay market salaries to a lot of others for the next 5 years. I'm glad they did not get Hunter.

I'm paying $15- to 18-million a year to only a handful of players, like Miguel Cabrera. He is the one I would go after.

JRIG
11-22-2007, 12:41 PM
I definitely see that. There was no reason for the Angels to sign him. They already had a stocked outfield; now they're overpaying for another one, and they lost their first round pick.

It makes sense. The Angels were never even mentioned over the last few weeks. Sounds like they heard about the Dodgers trying to acquire him, and just swooped in and grabbed him before the Dodgers could.

They've got six quality players for 3 OF slots and a DH: Vlad, Hunter, Willits, Anderson, Matthews, and Rivera. You've got to think they might be setting things up for another big trade. Miguel Tejada to play SS?

soxinem1
11-22-2007, 12:49 PM
I know this: ARZ signing of Eric Byrnes looks even more ingenious right now.

Somehow, I don't see Rowand returning for less than $12 million a year.

There are a lot of teams that wanted Hunter that will go higher on Rowand now.

While I would not mind seeing him come back, does that give us many more options for another bullpen arm and a LF if Rownd gets that kind of money?

veeter
11-22-2007, 01:02 PM
How dumb to the Dodgers feel? More money, and a no. I'm sure jag bag Hunter didn't want to change leagues. But ouch, Joe Torre.

Lip Man 1
11-22-2007, 01:27 PM
I'm now reminded of something yesterday afternoon on Chicago Tribune Live! They were talking about Hunter and Dave Van Dyke said that he didn't Hunter would go to the Sox.

I don't know if he was just guessing or if he was starting to hear some things in regards to the Angels.

It turns out though he was right.

Lip

ilsox7
11-22-2007, 01:29 PM
How dumb to the Dodgers feel? More money, and a no. I'm sure jag bag Hunter didn't want to change leagues. But ouch, Joe Torre.

FYI, the Dodgers never met with him nor made an offer according to reports.

fusillirob1983
11-22-2007, 02:22 PM
Kenny did nothing wrong here. Hunter got a huge contract offer, and putting money aside, can anyone name 5 teams that, when currently looking at the rosters, have a better chance of winning next year than the Angels? I don't think even 5 teams are out there that are currently more balanced. None of those were even mentioned as possible suitors for Hunter.

HarryChappas
11-22-2007, 03:03 PM
Willits would be Pods without injury. Let him play LF and sign Aaron for center. Maybe the Angels would be interested in Uribe? The trade Crede (and more?) for Willis in Florida.

soltrain21
11-22-2007, 03:08 PM
Willits would be Pods without injury. Let him play LF and sign Aaron for center. Maybe the Angels would be interested in Uribe? The trade Crede (and more?) for Willis in Florida.


I'm getting tired of thinking we can just trade complete garbage for gems. Uribe for Willits? Crede for Willis? Sigh...

getonbckthr
11-22-2007, 03:08 PM
Kenny has egg on his face because a team came in and gave a rediculous offer for a player who isn't worth nearly that much? I say congrats Kenny in not getting out of control.

goldglovesox
11-22-2007, 03:26 PM
I saw a couple people on here say that they wouldn't want Torri Hunter for x amount of dollars. I think that is all ludicrous. Torri Hunter makes you a better team does he not? Regardless of the money you give him, he is a significant upgrade in CF. One of the best. If you are looking to return to the top of the best division of baseball and have an opportunity to add a guy like Hunter to your squad, not spending money is foolish. Do I think the Angels overpaid for Hunter? Yes. Did they give him 1 too many years? Yes I think so. But with all that being said, they still got a lot better today. If you let payroll get in the way of upgrading your team and do not have a productive Minor League System, which the Sox do not, you will wind up near the bottom. We need to continue to add strength up the middle. The Indians and the Tigers are two of the strongest teams in the league up the middle. We need to add strength there. If Kenny was afforded the opportunity to approach 90 million I believe he would have.

Now aside from all that, no fingers need to be pointed here. Not at Kenny, not at Hunter or anybody. The man got an offer from somewhere he wanted to be, the money was right and he went with the decision. Read the articles, this happened in a 24 hour window. Kenny does not have egg on his face, he did not get played, he did not get used to help another organization out. Kenny was merely putting himself and the organization in the best position possible position to land Hunter. He got beat out because he was not allowed an opportunity to counter the Angels offer. Do not blame him. There is no blame to be assigned here. He was merely a victim of the business and that's the way things roll and now he must move to plan B and try his best (as he did here) to land plan B.

Happy Thanksgiving Guys.

getonbckthr
11-22-2007, 03:30 PM
I saw a couple people on here say that they wouldn't want Torri Hunter for x amount of dollars. I think that is all ludicrous. Torri Hunter makes you a better team does he not? Regardless of the money you give him, he is a significant upgrade in CF. One of the best. If you are looking to return to the top of the best division of baseball and have an opportunity to add a guy like Hunter to your squad, not spending money is foolish. Do I think the Angels overpaid for Hunter? Yes. Did they give him 1 too many years? Yes I think so. But with all that being said, they still got a lot better today. If you let payroll get in the way of upgrading your team and do not have a productive Minor League System, which the Sox do not, you will wind up near the bottom. We need to continue to add strength up the middle. The Indians and the Tigers are two of the strongest teams in the league up the middle. We need to add strength there. If Kenny was afforded the opportunity to approach 90 million I believe he would have.

Now aside from all that, no fingers need to be pointed here. Not at Kenny, not at Hunter or anybody. The man got an offer from somewhere he wanted to be, the money was right and he went with the decision. Read the articles, this happened in a 24 hour window. Kenny does not have egg on his face, he did not get played, he did not get used to help another organization out. Kenny was merely putting himself and the organization in the best position possible position to land Hunter. He got beat out because he was not allowed an opportunity to counter the Angels offer. Do not blame him. There is no blame to be assigned here. He was merely a victim of the business and that's the way things roll and now he must move to plan B and try his best (as he did here) to land plan B.

Happy Thanksgiving Guys.
Giving Torii 18 million on our budget would have stupid.

goldglovesox
11-22-2007, 03:43 PM
Giving Torii 18 million on our budget would have stupid.

#1 What's our budget?

#2 Why? If he upgrades you, and you over pay a little bit, why would this be stupid? If makes you a contender, who's stupid, he who spends too much and makes the playoffs? Or the guy who does not and toils in 3rd place watching the Tigers and the Indians duke it out in September?

CLR01
11-22-2007, 03:53 PM
#1 What's our budget?

#2 Why? If he upgrades you, and you over pay a little bit, why would this be stupid? If makes you a contender, who's stupid, he who spends too much and makes the playoffs? Or the guy who does not and toils in 3rd place watching the Tigers and the Indians duke it out in September?

Last I checked Torii Hunter didn't pitch. Overpaying for a CFer is not going to be the difference between third and the playoffs.

DickAllen72
11-22-2007, 05:00 PM
Giving Torii 18 million on our budget would have stupid.
I agree. I wanted Hunter probably more than anyone on this site. I've been saying so for years. But $18M per year was just way too much.

If the Sox would have let Hunter slip away because of the number of years on the contract I would have been upset. In other words if another team would have matched what the Sox were willing to pay per year but were willing to give him an extra year and the Sox were unwilling to add a sixth year, that would have been dumb. As I posted on another thread the other day, who gives a **** about one 'bad" contract in 2013? If say, the Sox felt Hunter was worth paying $15M per year for five years, what the hell is one more year six years from now?

But $18M per year to Hunter would have handicapped the Sox payroll wise for the next three years which is all I'm concerned about. Also overpaying by such a huge amount may have had a negative effect on the morale of players like Dye and Buehrle who took a major discount to play here only to see someone of about equal talent get a tremendous offer like that.

I would hope now KW is on the phone with Rowand's agent offering him something like $75M over 6 years. Rowand may still want to play for the Sox enough to sign without seeking more money from teams like the Dodgers or Rangers. But if someone else is foolish enough to offer Rowand substantially more than that, sadly KW may have to pass on that also.

Lip Man 1
11-22-2007, 05:01 PM
Story on this from White Sox.com. Quotes Kenny. Speculates on Crawford, Rowand and Cabrerra.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071122&content_id=2306716&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Lip

goldglovesox
11-22-2007, 05:12 PM
Last I checked Torii Hunter didn't pitch. Overpaying for a CFer is not going to be the difference between third and the playoffs.

Ok then what is? Upgrading the leagues worst offense is a pretty good place to start. Adding a pitcher doesn't address the fact that the Sox finished dead last in team hitting.

It IS a good move if they 'overpay a CF' if they are going to trade Crede and get another starter with the team they are trading with picking up half of the incoming pitcher's salary.

It IS a good move if they find a way to dump Uribe and get a middle reliever.

Everything about overpaying a guy comes down to being aggressive. You have to be aggressive and push your chips to the middle when you believe you have a shot. If Kenny honestly believes he is close to returning to the playoffs and the World Series, then you overpay for the best CF on the market who instantly upgrades your club.

I also read that someone "honestly would not want Hunter in CF". That is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. Torri Hunter is one of the best CF in the game. He instantly makes your team better. He leaves it all out on the field and is a gamer in every sense of the word. To say you do not like a guy like Hunter because he gives another team bulletin board material is very little league. Who cares. The whole league hates AJ. Yet all Sox fans love him. Believe me if Hunter was patrolling CF and robbing homeruns and batting behind Dye, no one on this board would hate him. And attempt to justify that is futile.

goldglovesox
11-22-2007, 05:16 PM
I agree. I wanted Hunter probably more than anyone on this site. I've been saying so for years. But $18M per year was just way too much.

If the Sox would have let Hunter slip away because of the number of years on the contract I would have been upset. In other words if another team would have matched what the Sox were willing to pay per year but were willing to give him an extra year and the Sox were unwilling to add a sixth year, that would have been dumb. As I posted on another thread the other day, who gives a **** about one 'bad" contract in 2013? If say, the Sox felt Hunter was worth paying $15M per year for five years, what the hell is one more year six years from now?

But $18M per year to Hunter would have handicapped the Sox payroll wise for the next three years which is all I'm concerned about. Also overpaying by such a huge amount may have had a negative effect on the morale of players like Dye and Buehrle who took a major discount to play here only to see someone of about equal talent get a tremendous offer like that.

I would hope now KW is on the phone with Rowand's agent offering him something like $75M over 6 years. Rowand may still want to play for the Sox enough to sign without seeking more money from teams like the Dodgers or Rangers. But if someone else is foolish enough to offer Rowand substantially more than that, sadly KW may have to pass on that also.

Dick I hear what you are saying man, but what contracts are expiring in the next couple of years that you would need the room. Also, would you honestly say you would that you would rather Sox be payroll concious than return to the WS?

As for Dye and Buerhle being negatively affected by such a contract, I would disagree. I think they would appreciate the fact that the Sox were using the money they saved on them to bolster the club. If I was a player and took a discount to stay, I would love that the organization was being aggressive to put a better squad out there. And I would take pride in the fact that I helped by taking less money. I did my part on and off the field. Just my opinion though man.

fquaye149
11-22-2007, 05:18 PM
dear gold glove sox:

we are not the Yankees or the Red Sox, therefore the amount of money we pay for one free agent does affect the amount of money we can spend on more pressing needs.

signed,

people who have a concept of the White Sox's (and almost every other MLB team's) financial situation

Tragg
11-22-2007, 05:30 PM
The Angels ARE a lot better than the Sox right now, irrespective of the JG trade. 72 wins (not a fluke - this was a 72 win quality roster) versus a division winner. It's reality.
The Sox have the worst O in the AL. What the sox really need is an A list lead off hitter and a second quality hitter. Hunter would have fit the latter. But Hunter's price was sky-high.
I just hope he has a plan. Signing Uribe, then trading the best trading chit (i know - garland had no value) for a free agent to be SS. I don't know. So far $9 mill spent - on a SS theSox don't need an on a middle reliever.

goldglovesox
11-22-2007, 05:32 PM
dear gold glove sox:

we are not the Yankees or the Red Sox, therefore the amount of money we pay for one free agent does affect the amount of money we can spend on more pressing needs.

signed,

people who have a concept of the White Sox's (and almost every other MLB team's) financial situation

Dear fquatye149-

It is fantastic to know you are so dialed in to the WhiteSox front office that you have a grip on their financial situation. If you would, for me and the rest of the board, what is the WhiteSox budget this season? Since you have a concept of it. How much money are they willing to spend? Financially, how would a post-season appearance affect their bottom line? How did the boost in attendance the past two season's effect their thinking financially, postive or negative?

Maybe you can enlighten the board as to what would be "more pressing needs"? I guess improving up the middle of the diamond is not a pressing need. The Indians are going to have Sizemore, Peralta, Cabrera, and Victor Martinez up the middle. The Tigers will have Granderson, Renteria, Polanco and Pudge up the middle. The Sox are going to go with Pierzynski, Cabrera, Richar? and Owens?

I assume you wish to improve the rotation? Which can be addressed through a trade given that the most sought FA starter is Carlos Silva. Cross him off because you do not want to overpay him. Next pressing matter the bullpen, ok we signed Scott Linebrink which is a good deal. If that is not good enough you have to find someone else. Maybe you can go get David Riske, you might not have to overpay him.

The fact of the matter is man, if you want to improve your club through the market of Free Agency you will be forced to over pay the player. Its the nature of the business. Rowand will be overpaid as well. The WhiteSox are in a position to expand their payroll. The last two season's their attendance was near the top in the league. Now since I do not have the same grasp of finances as you do I guess, I do not understand what that means. But I always thought that if you were near the top in attendance, you could spend more on players.

But go ahead you trade for Coco Crisp and pay him 8 million next year and I will sign Hunter. Then you can be on this board next year complaining on how we never spend any money.

Frater Perdurabo
11-22-2007, 05:38 PM
Dick I hear what you are saying man, but what contracts are expiring in the next couple of years that you would need the room. Also, would you honestly say you would that you would rather Sox be payroll concious than return to the WS?

As for Dye and Buerhle being negatively affected by such a contract, I would disagree. I think they would appreciate the fact that the Sox were using the money they saved on them to bolster the club. If I was a player and took a discount to stay, I would love that the organization was being aggressive to put a better squad out there. And I would take pride in the fact that I helped by taking less money. I did my part on and off the field. Just my opinion though man.

Goldglove,

I know you know a lot about the game. So how do you honestly rate Hunter's defensive skills? Is he extraordinarily better than everyone else? I know he's very, very good, but hasn't he always played deep to try to rob homers? It's true that those highlight-reel catches often can swing a game, but really, how many times does that happen in a given season? And at what expense? How many soft liners fall for singles? How many of those extra baserunners translate into extra runs? And moreover, how many of those late-inning homer-robbing highlight-reel catches were helped by the reversible pressurization/ventilation fans in the dome? How many of his late-inning homers were helped out by that same technology?

I think his production against the Sox caused many Sox fans to covet him. Since 2005, he's hit 12 HRs against the Sox (4 against Detroit, 6 against Cleveland, 7 against KC).

Given that, no, I'm not sad that the Sox aren't going to spend $18 million a year, for a career .271/.324/.469 hitter who strikes out an average of 114 times and GIDPs 15 times in a 162-game season, and who has a history of injuries and played 10 season on bad turf.

ilsox7
11-22-2007, 05:42 PM
But go ahead you trade for Coco Crisp and pay him 8 million next year and I will sign Hunter. Then you can be on this board next year complaining on how we never spend any money.

So you would have given Toriiiiiii 5 years and over $100MM? That would be absolute insanity.

fquaye149
11-22-2007, 05:52 PM
Dear fquatye149-

It is fantastic to know you are so dialed in to the WhiteSox front office that you have a grip on their financial situation. If you would, for me and the rest of the board, what is the WhiteSox budget this season? Since you have a concept of it. How much money are they willing to spend? Financially, how would a post-season appearance affect their bottom line? How did the boost in attendance the past two season's effect their thinking financially, postive or negative?

Maybe you can enlighten the board as to what would be "more pressing needs"? I guess improving up the middle of the diamond is not a pressing need. The Indians are going to have Sizemore, Peralta, Cabrera, and Victor Martinez up the middle. The Tigers will have Granderson, Renteria, Polanco and Pudge up the middle. The Sox are going to go with Pierzynski, Cabrera, Richar? and Owens?

I assume you wish to improve the rotation? Which can be addressed through a trade given that the most sought FA starter is Carlos Silva. Cross him off because you do not want to overpay him. Next pressing matter the bullpen, ok we signed Scott Linebrink which is a good deal. If that is not good enough you have to find someone else. Maybe you can go get David Riske, you might not have to overpay him.

The fact of the matter is man, if you want to improve your club through the market of Free Agency you will be forced to over pay the player. Its the nature of the business. Rowand will be overpaid as well. The WhiteSox are in a position to expand their payroll. The last two season's their attendance was near the top in the league. Now since I do not have the same grasp of finances as you do I guess, I do not understand what that means. But I always thought that if you were near the top in attendance, you could spend more on players.

But go ahead you trade for Coco Crisp and pay him 8 million next year and I will sign Hunter. Then you can be on this board next year complaining on how we never spend any money.


:rolleyes:

But to address the most glaring lack of reasoning in this post:

Even if we do trade to improve the rotation, most likely, cash concerns are going to play a big part in how we obtain a pitcher. Frankly, the more money we have to eat, the better a pitcher we can get and the less we will have to give up...

but...you know... :rolleyes:

CLR01
11-22-2007, 06:00 PM
It IS a good move if they 'overpay a CF' if they are going to trade Crede and get another starter with the team they are trading with picking up half of the incoming pitcher's salary.

And exactly what team is going to take Crede, coming off back surgery, and give you a pitcher and pay half his salary? I don't know if I want that pitcher in the Sox rotation.

goldglovesox
11-22-2007, 06:02 PM
So you would have given Toriiiiiii 5 years and over $100MM? That would be absolute insanity.

Frader-
I think Hunter is among the league's best in CF. He gets to the gaps especially well and obviously the highlights are what gets everyone's attention. But in my opinion, there are very few game changers that play CF. I put Hunter in that class. I have heard that knock before about him playing deep to make Sportscenter but for me, I am struggling to name a player who comes in on the ball better than Hunter, maybe Sizemore. I think that allows him to play deep. Also our division (w/the exception of our park) has some pretty big yards too. I mean Comerica is a barn, Jacobs is big and the Metrodome requires you to be a good defensive team, which is why I think if you are going to over pay to lock down a spot, its CF.

But I don't know man, to me you give him his dough. The post after you said something about 100 mil. I thought I read he was getting 90 million. I would give him the $90 mil. If it's $100 that's high for me. I hear what everyone is saying about overpaying someone is stupid. But what is more stupid, not spending the money and missing the playoffs? I dont know man this is just my opinion but, I just think Hunter gives you a deep lineup protecting Dye and allowing you to drop Fields to 8 and makes your defense that much better. Then you can trade Crede to get the extra arm you need.

But in my opinion we are not a small or mid market team. We are a big market team. Are we the RedSox, Yankees or Angels? No. But we are the 4th biggest market in the AL. We have and should spend the money.

BadBobbyJenks
11-22-2007, 06:17 PM
I think the Royals are actually trying to start a movement towards a winning mentality. I don't think they'd want to trade DeJesus to a division rival without asking for a whole lot in return.



They have a weird love affair for joey gathright, I think the royals could make him available.

Im going to keep hammering this idea, call theo epstein bring in crisp, leadoff and centerfield filled in one mover and you save MILLIONS...

If KW gave this offer to hunter I would be in line with a lot of poster killing the move.

Great news on a holiday for me, I dont have to force myself to cheer for hunter and hes out of the division.:bandance:

goldglovesox
11-22-2007, 06:21 PM
:rolleyes:

But to address the most glaring lack of reasoning in this post:

Even if we do trade to improve the rotation, most likely, cash concerns are going to play a big part in how we obtain a pitcher. Frankly, the more money we have to eat, the better a pitcher we can get and the less we will have to give up...

but...you know... :rolleyes:

Ok smiley face. Reason with me. What, in your opinion, do the Sox have of value, that would allow them to make a deal for a #3 starter or better?

And which team has enough depth in their rotation to trade a guy who would immediately upgrade the Sox for our best bargaining chip?

Look at the bargaining chips the Sox have.
Crede? Missed most of last season with a back injury.
Anderson? Value is at the lowest point it has ever been.
Uribe? Not much value now that team's know we have no use for him and we are paying him $5 Mil.
I would not want to trade much of what little depth I have in my minor league system for a middle rotation guy whom I have for a year or two.

Trust me I have already done this, try and find a place where Crede fits and whom you could expect in return. And all of the teams that would offer cash considerations (large market squads) have 3B. The Dodgers are the best fit, but who could we expect in return? Penny or Lowe? not happening. Try and find a fit in which we will be able to get a guy who upgrades our rotation and will not force you to trade much of what little minor league depth you have.

Ziggy S
11-22-2007, 06:22 PM
The difference b/t Contreras and Garland is that Contreras has plus stuff, but sometimes pitches like an idiot. That is a lot easier to have a breakout season with.

On the other hand Garland has GOOD (not great) stuff, but knows how to pitch. That pretty much suggests he's pitched about as well as he's going to...
Gotta say this is pretty accurate. :thumbsup:

Ziggy S
11-22-2007, 06:36 PM
And exactly what team is going to take Crede, coming off back surgery, and give you a pitcher and pay half his salary? I don't know if I want that pitcher in the Sox rotation.
I don't know about paying half his salary, but you add in a couple of prospects (Gio, Broadway, possibly Floyd, Sweeney, maybe even Satan) along with Crede and we are very likely to land Dontrelle. I don't know if we will, but I think it's a possibility.

goldglovesox
11-22-2007, 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by fquaye149 http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1728262#post1728262)
The difference b/t Contreras and Garland is that Contreras has plus stuff, but sometimes pitches like an idiot. That is a lot easier to have a breakout season with.

On the other hand Garland has GOOD (not great) stuff, but knows how to pitch. That pretty much suggests he's pitched about as well as he's going to...


Gotta say this is pretty accurate. :thumbsup:

Yeah I agree. That is 100% accurate. It also means you are risking much more w/ Contreras though. With Jon Garland you know what you are getting and was probably the most consistent guy on the staff, right there with Buerhle. He wasn't brilliant but he was consistent from year to year. However if Contreras puts it together the way he did 2nd half of '05 and 1st half of '06 then you have a Cy Young Candidate. Another example of high risk and reward deal.

goldglovesox
11-22-2007, 06:44 PM
I don't know about paying half his salary, but you add in a couple of prospects (Gio, Broadway, possibly Floyd, Sweeney, maybe even Satan) along with Crede and we are very likely to land Dontrelle. I don't know if we will, but I think it's a possibility.

That's not a bad idea. But it goes back to the main discussion. In no way are Marlins picking up salary and then you will have to sign Dontrell to a huge contract right up there with what Hunter got and next year Santana may be deciding the market for premium pitching so it will be inflated still. So you will pay sooner or later and you will have to give up 2 to 3 of your top prospects for maybe only 1 year. Plus you have no insurance policy for Danks and Contreras if either cannot hold down a spot in the rotation. But I am all for being aggressive.

The Immigrant
11-22-2007, 06:45 PM
I'm getting tired of thinking we can just trade complete garbage for gems. Uribe for Willits? Crede for Willis? Sigh...

Are you seriously referring to Joe Crede as garbage and Reggie ****ing Willits as a "gem"? Unbelievable.

ilsox7
11-22-2007, 06:50 PM
But I don't know man, to me you give him his dough. The post after you said something about 100 mil. I thought I read he was getting 90 million. I would give him the $90 mil. If it's $100 that's high for me. I hear what everyone is saying about overpaying someone is stupid. But what is more stupid, not spending the money and missing the playoffs? I dont know man this is just my opinion but, I just think Hunter gives you a deep lineup protecting Dye and allowing you to drop Fields to 8 and makes your defense that much better. Then you can trade Crede to get the extra arm you need.

But in my opinion we are not a small or mid market team. We are a big market team. Are we the RedSox, Yankees or Angels? No. But we are the 4th biggest market in the AL. We have and should spend the money.

First, if the Sox had simply matched the Angels' offer, he goes there. They are in much better shape than we are. Hence, the Sox would have had to gone significantly above their offer. Second, the Sox DO act like a big market team. Look at team payrolls last year.

I have no problem with people agreeing or disagreeing with what happens, but at least get your facts straight.

goldglovesox
11-22-2007, 07:05 PM
First, if the Sox had simply matched the Angels' offer, he goes there. They are in much better shape than we are. Hence, the Sox would have had to gone significantly above their offer. Second, the Sox DO act like a big market team. Look at team payrolls last year.

I have no problem with people agreeing or disagreeing with what happens, but at least get your facts straight.

I wasn't saying we were small or mid market. I was responding to an earlier post that was saying that we could not take financial chances and that we needed to watch what we spent. My argument is that we have enough flexibility to upgrade our team anywhere we can. I was saying that we do not need to operate like a mid or small market team who will nickel and dime their way through the off-season. Trust me sir, my fact are straight. Sorry you misunderstood what I was saying.

ilsox7
11-22-2007, 07:12 PM
I wasn't saying we were small or mid market. I was responding to an earlier post that was saying that we could not take financial chances and that we needed to watch what we spent. My argument is that we have enough flexibility to upgrade our team anywhere we can. I was saying that we do not need to operate like a mid or small market team who will nickel and dime their way through the off-season. Trust me sir, my fact are straight. Sorry you misunderstood what I was saying.

Tell me how we act like a small market team? Is it the $100MM payroll? The extensions given to MB and JD? The deal PK signed 2 years ago?

Ziggy S
11-22-2007, 07:22 PM
Tell me how we act like a small market team? Is it the $100MM payroll? The extensions given to MB and JD? The deal PK signed 2 years ago?
I think we are in the upper middle class to big market range at this point. The two New York and Los Angeles teams are in a bigger market, the Cubs take in more revenue with the Urinal and their WGN and CSN deals, and the Red Sox are the only team in that city, plus they basically use ESPN are their flagship network. The Good Guys are pretty much in the next tier after that, even though they did spend more on player payroll than the Cubs, last year (like it really helped, no teal neccesary). Still, we are not in that top tier "big market" zone, but we are not Pittsburgh, Florida, or Tampa Bay, either.

ilsox7
11-22-2007, 07:23 PM
I think we are in the upper middle class to big market range at this point. The two New York and Los Angeles teams are in a bigger market, the Cubs take in more revenue with the Urinal and their WGN and CSN deals, and the Red Sox are the only team in that city. The Good Guys are pretty much in the next tier after that, even though they did spend more on player payroll than the Cubs, last year (like it really helped, no teal neccesary). Still, we are not in that top tier "big market" zone, but we are not Pittsburgh, Florida, or Tampa Bay, either.

No argument here. We spend a lot of money on players, but not so much that we don't have to have a budget. That's my entire point.

goldglovesox
11-22-2007, 07:26 PM
Tell me how we act like a small market team? Is it the $100MM payroll? The extensions given to MB and JD? The deal PK signed 2 years ago?

I never said we did operate like a small market team. Ok AGAIN....I was responding to a previous post that was suggesting that we should operate like a mid-market team and watch what we spend. I never said we did act like a small market squad if you go back and read my post. I suggested it would be a mistake if we did act like a small or mid market team. Go back and read the post. I said the previous post was suggesting we should act like a smaller market team and watch our pennies. I said we have the money to spend and we should continue to spend it.

ilsox7
11-22-2007, 07:32 PM
I never said we did operate like a small market team. Ok AGAIN....I was responding to a previous post that was suggesting that we should operate like a mid-market team and watch what we spend. I never said we did act like a small market squad if you go back and read my post. I suggested it would be a mistake if we did act like a small or mid market team. Go back and read the post. I said the previous post was suggesting we should act like a smaller market team and watch our pennies. I said we have the money to spend and we should continue to spend it.

I understand that you're saying we are not a small or mid-market team, but you then go on and talk like we should be spending a la the Yankees. Saying we have the money and should spend the money ($100MM+) on Toriiii is the equivalent of saying that we should throw money around like the Yankees or Red Sox.

So my point is that the Sox are a big market team, but a tier below the Yankees, Red Sox, and maybe the Angels. So we cannot just go and spend money that we 1) do not have and 2) will hurt us elsewhere on the roster.

EDIT: I did initially misread your post and apologize for that. But I still say your reasoning is flawed about not giving Toriiiii his money meaning the Sox are not acting like a big market team.

EndemicSox
11-22-2007, 07:45 PM
I'm almost certain the Angels will regret the Hunter deal come year three, and am happy Kenny didn't sign him. The Garland deal is a toss-up, but if Williams can find a gem in the minors/FA, losing him isn't a big deal. I've never been a big fan of Garland's pitching, outside of the 2005 playoffs. Give KW some time folks, ripping his moves(or lackthereof) at this point in time is pointless...go spend some time with your family/friends...see y'all come April...

fquaye149
11-22-2007, 07:55 PM
Ok smiley face. Reason with me. What, in your opinion, do the Sox have of value, that would allow them to make a deal for a #3 starter or better?

And which team has enough depth in their rotation to trade a guy who would immediately upgrade the Sox for our best bargaining chip?

Look at the bargaining chips the Sox have.
Crede? Missed most of last season with a back injury.
Anderson? Value is at the lowest point it has ever been.
Uribe? Not much value now that team's know we have no use for him and we are paying him $5 Mil.
I would not want to trade much of what little depth I have in my minor league system for a middle rotation guy whom I have for a year or two.

Trust me I have already done this, try and find a place where Crede fits and whom you could expect in return. And all of the teams that would offer cash considerations (large market squads) have 3B. The Dodgers are the best fit, but who could we expect in return? Penny or Lowe? not happening. Try and find a fit in which we will be able to get a guy who upgrades our rotation and will not force you to trade much of what little minor league depth you have.

You're the one proposing we deal for starting pitching.

Since you're arguing we don't have a lot of personnel value for pitching trades, then wouldn't you be saying that it's important to have loose cash?

So basically you're making my argument for me.

here's that "smiley face" again:rolleyes:

fquaye149
11-22-2007, 07:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fquaye149 http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1728262#post1728262)
The difference b/t Contreras and Garland is that Contreras has plus stuff, but sometimes pitches like an idiot. That is a lot easier to have a breakout season with.

On the other hand Garland has GOOD (not great) stuff, but knows how to pitch. That pretty much suggests he's pitched about as well as he's going to...


quote=Ziggy S;1728419]Gotta say this is pretty accurate. :thumbsup:

Yeah I agree. That is 100% accurate. It also means you are risking much more w/ Contreras though. With Jon Garland you know what you are getting and was probably the most consistent guy on the staff, right there with Buerhle. He wasn't brilliant but he was consistent from year to year. However if Contreras puts it together the way he did 2nd half of '05 and 1st half of '06 then you have a Cy Young Candidate. Another example of high risk and reward deal.[/quote]

I would agree with this too.

The thing is though, the reason I posted that is some people were saying "Garland's turning 28, entering his prime! He might have a breakout season"

I'm trying to say we've probably seen about as well as Garland's going to throw, give or take a win or two and maybe .20 on an ERA

kobo
11-22-2007, 08:06 PM
I said we have the money to spend and we should continue to spend it.
And you know this how? You keep going on and on about how the White Sox have all of this money to spend, yet I haven't seen one fact or figure that backs that up. Yes, attendance increased the last couple of seasons, but none of us have any idea what that means to the White Sox. We don't know how much they made, we don't know their revenue, we don't have a clue as to whether or not they have a budget for payroll. And if I had to guess, I'd say that there is a budget and the payroll may only increase another $10 million over what it was last year.

It's nice to sit behind your keyboard and think the Sox have all this money to spend and should just go out and spend it. And then come up with insane trade offers like Crede for a #3 or #4 pitcher + cash. But the bottom line is none of us have a clue as to what the Sox can or cannot spend, so it's pointless to go on and on assuming that "we" can just spend and spend and everything will magically work out.

DumpJerry
11-22-2007, 08:13 PM
Well, after about 6 hours of vigorous and intelligent debate, I think the concensus is that Kenny's face is squeaky clean right now.

Brian26
11-22-2007, 09:02 PM
Well, after about 6 hours of vigorous and intelligent debate, I think the concensus is that Kenny's face is squeaky clean right now.

Yet, somewhere out there, Greg Luzinski has pumpkin pie all over his chin. I digress.

wdelaney72
11-22-2007, 09:26 PM
:chickenlittle :threadsucks :threadblows:

I completely agree.

balke
11-22-2007, 11:53 PM
He just got played by an ex-Twin to drive up his price and he then signs with the team who just traded for Garland.:rolleyes:

Kenny, you had a 90 loss team at the end of the season and you have a 90 loss team now.

Scott Linebrink?

So far, not so good, Kenny.

What an ignorant post. Do you really want Hunter for 18+ million a year over 5 years? He isn't worth it. And Scott Linebrink is a reliever, which the Sox need. There's not a closer in baseball that is going to sign with the Sox to setup for Jenks. Linebrink is about the best piece he could get for the Bullpen.

The Dude
11-23-2007, 01:22 AM
:chickenlittle :threadsucks :threadblows:

We don't agree on much but I concur.:D:

russ99
11-23-2007, 09:58 AM
Ya know what I wanted Hunter on the Sox, but it's called Free Agency. The player gets to decide who he plays for, regardless of what the Sox pitched.

Kenny's gotta shrug this off and move on. There are other options. Maybe we can sign Aaron or make a push to bring Crawford in now...

asindc
11-27-2007, 09:49 PM
Shouldn't the title of this thread be under a "You write today's Cubune headline" thread?

RadioheadRocks
11-28-2007, 01:27 AM
:chickenlittle :threadsucks :threadblows:

To which I'd like to add
http://allyourbase.shackspace.com/thread_sucks.jpg

kitekrazy
11-28-2007, 11:16 AM
What an ignorant post. Do you really want Hunter for 18+ million a year over 5 years? He isn't worth it. And Scott Linebrink is a reliever, which the Sox need. There's not a closer in baseball that is going to sign with the Sox to setup for Jenks. Linebrink is about the best piece he could get for the Bullpen.

I may be wrong but I think Steve Stone thought signing Hunter would be a bad idea.

Rounding_Third
11-28-2007, 01:44 PM
Tell me how we act like a small market team? Is it the $100MM payroll? The extensions given to MB and JD? The deal PK signed 2 years ago?

I'm glad the payroll has been brought up. USA Today lists the Sox's 2007 payroll at $108m but also includes Thome's $14.8m salary. How much of that did the Phillies pay and will pay this year. I thought it was a substantial amount. So therefore where does the final total number fall? Were we actually well under $100m last year? If so, by how much? Can someone clear this up for me. Thanks!

champagne030
11-28-2007, 01:49 PM
I'm glad the payroll has been brought up. USA Today lists the Sox's 2007 payroll at $108m but also includes Thome's $14.8m salary. How much of that did the Phillies pay and will pay this year. I thought it was a substantial amount. So therefore where does the final total number fall? Were we actually well under $100m last year? If so, by how much? Can someone clear this up for me. Thanks!

The Sox out of pocket payroll last season was roughly $95M. They also saved some more with the salary dumps of Mack and Iguchi.

sullythered
11-28-2007, 01:52 PM
I may be wrong but I think Steve Stone thought signing Hunter would be a bad idea.
Stone Pony was ALL OVER hating the Hunter move. He continually emphasized the dangers of bringing in a 32 year old who has played on the Minny turf for so many years.

balke
11-28-2007, 01:56 PM
I'm glad the payroll has been brought up. USA Today lists the Sox's 2007 payroll at $108m but also includes Thome's $14.8m salary. How much of that did the Phillies pay and will pay this year. I thought it was a substantial amount. So therefore where does the final total number fall? Were we actually well under $100m last year? If so, by how much? Can someone clear this up for me. Thanks!

I think this is the first season the Sox pay all of Thome's salary, I may be wrong though.

voodoochile
11-28-2007, 01:58 PM
I'm glad the payroll has been brought up. USA Today lists the Sox's 2007 payroll at $108m but also includes Thome's $14.8m salary. How much of that did the Phillies pay and will pay this year. I thought it was a substantial amount. So therefore where does the final total number fall? Were we actually well under $100m last year? If so, by how much? Can someone clear this up for me. Thanks!

I think a more valid question is where do the Sox rank in terms of MLB payrolls.

According to this site (http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2007), the Sox ranked 5th in total payroll last year. Even if you say the Phillies paid half of Thome's salary, they'd still be no lower than 7th and still over $100M.

billcissell
11-28-2007, 02:39 PM
IMO, the Angels got hoodwinked signing Hunter. He's just not worth that kind of money. I wanted KW to sign him, but I applaud him for maintaining some sense of fiscal responsibility.

Hunter was (still is) an upper echelon outfielder, although his skills are falling off. Lots of years playing on turf will take its toll on his legs soon enough, if it has happened already.

I've never liked the guy ever since he took a cheap shot at Jamie Burke a few years ago. Yes, it was an unnecessary cheap shot. He went out of his way to nail the Sox catcher, even though he could have slid home safely and avoided the collision.

KW is not through by any means. Relax and wait for the off-season to play out.