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View Full Version : Sox sign Scott Linebrink


gldfinger5
11-21-2007, 09:28 PM
4 years 19 million. - ESPN 1000.

illini81887
11-21-2007, 09:33 PM
I like it

getonbckthr
11-21-2007, 09:33 PM
Link?
1st post is a signing hmmmmm...

gldfinger5
11-21-2007, 09:35 PM
Normally read, rarely post. it's on AM 1000.

PalehosePlanet
11-21-2007, 09:38 PM
And alot of you scoffed/laughed when I said we needed him. I hope this is true; anything official??

DickAllen72
11-21-2007, 09:39 PM
It's been confirmed on another Sox site. Several long time posters there said they also heard it on AM1000.

ilsox7
11-21-2007, 09:39 PM
Fingers crossed that he re-gains previous form. He was a bit scary with the Brewers last year.

skobabe8
11-21-2007, 09:39 PM
welcome gldfinger! :D:

DickAllen72
11-21-2007, 09:39 PM
4 years 19 million. - ESPN 1000.
Welcome to WSI! :cheers:

dickallen15
11-21-2007, 09:42 PM
I'm shocked Otis didn't post this.

KRS1
11-21-2007, 09:44 PM
Hopefully he can return to form. The Padres cashed in on him very well, and I am not in the party who thinks they dumped him because they were down him, but rather that they knew they weren't going to be able to pay him, and decided to get something instead.

Quick question, since he is a type A FA, what picks do we lose?

slowlearner
11-21-2007, 09:46 PM
Linebrink has been a consistently above average RP for the last four years or so. In that respect, it's a nice pick-up. But four years for a reliever? I'm shocked.

soltrain21
11-21-2007, 09:47 PM
Hmm. Interesting. Under the radar!

ndgt10
11-21-2007, 09:51 PM
That's ridiculous for Linebrink. At least it's not my money.

JB98
11-21-2007, 09:53 PM
If true, a monumental waste of money.

sox1970
11-21-2007, 09:53 PM
That's ridiculous for Linebrink. At least it's not my money.

Aardsma, Masset, MacDougal, Sisco

If he gets outs, he's worth every penny.

Noneck
11-21-2007, 09:54 PM
Maybe this is the Sox big FA signing of 07.

ilsox7
11-21-2007, 09:59 PM
If true, a monumental waste of money.

I disagree. Is it risky? Sure. But it's not a franchise-killing contract if it turns out bad. And if it turns out good, we now have the 8th and 9th innings pretty much locked down.

JRIG
11-21-2007, 10:06 PM
I hate, hate, investing big $$ and years in relief pitching. Too flammable, too fungible from year to year.

That said, if you are going to do it, Linebrink is the guy to get. A much better deal than any of the guys the O's signed last year (Bradford, Baez...and Walker?)

eriqjaffe
11-21-2007, 10:06 PM
Fingers crossed that he re-gains previous form. He was a bit scary with the Brewers last year.By Sox bullpen standards, he was so lights-out that he would've been classified as a black hole.

JB98
11-21-2007, 10:09 PM
I disagree. Is it risky? Sure. But it's not a franchise-killing contract if it turns out bad. And if it turns out good, we now have the 8th and 9th innings pretty much locked down.

That's just too much money to commit to a middle reliever, IMO. The move reeks of desperation.

wealz07
11-21-2007, 10:10 PM
I liked it better when KW didn't have money to spend. 3.5 ERA in the NL doesn't project well to AL. Todd Richie anyone?

102605
11-21-2007, 10:11 PM
I LIKE IT! Welcome Linebrink, you were surely missed by the Padres!

102605
11-21-2007, 10:12 PM
It is less than 5 mil/year. Not exactly a monumental waste of money. For one of the most solid RP's available I can't believe there is still people here *****ing about signing any RP.

The 2008 bullpen is suddenly very improved as Linebrink will get the 8th inning every ballgame we lead by 3 or less.

TomBradley72
11-21-2007, 10:13 PM
Big jump in his ERA, opponents SLG and OBP the last few years.

He has 4 saves in 30 save opportunities over the course of his career....not sure why he's worth such a long term commitment.....his 3.50 ERAs in the NL will translate to 4.50 in the AL...not my money and I hope he helps but this feels like overpaying.

102605
11-21-2007, 10:13 PM
I liked it better when KW didn't have money to spend. 3.5 ERA in the NL doesn't project well to AL. Todd Richie anyone?

WHO else did you want? Rivera? You gotta be kidding me. Linebrink had a better ERA in years OTHER than just last years sampling anyways.

sox1970
11-21-2007, 10:13 PM
I LIKE IT! Welcome Linebrink, you were surely missed by the Padres!

...and the Brewers.

TomBradley72
11-21-2007, 10:14 PM
That's just too much money to commit to a middle reliever, IMO. The move reeks of desperation.

= to a Jim Hendry type signing.

the1tab
11-21-2007, 10:15 PM
There's my first answer to "Which name will we curse the most in the Summer of 2008?"

If he's anything like he was in Milwaukee, we just gave a guy almost $5 million a year for a $500k arm. However, if he bounces back to 2006 form, this might be a great signing. Still stinks like a Macdougal to me.

ilsox7
11-21-2007, 10:16 PM
That's just too much money to commit to a middle reliever, IMO. The move reeks of desperation.

Well, the Sox are in a pretty desperate position when it comes to the bullpen. And like I said, this deal won't cripple the team if it doesn't work out. But if it does work out, you've just shortened the game by an inning.

DickAllen72
11-21-2007, 10:16 PM
That's just too much money to commit to a middle reliever, IMO. The move reeks of desperation.
Maybe, but then again the Sox should be desperate for bullpen help after last season's debacle.

JRIG
11-21-2007, 10:16 PM
That's just too much money to commit to a middle reliever, IMO. The move reeks of desperation.

It's the going rate for a top-tier set-up guy. Scot Shields just signed a 3-year extension with the Angels for $14.5 million. Shields and Linebrink are about as good as they get in that category. And I think Linebrink is a year younger.

KRS1
11-21-2007, 10:17 PM
I liked it better when KW didn't have money to spend. 3.5 ERA in the NL doesn't project well to AL. Todd Richie anyone?

There isn't much difference, if there is one at all, between expectations in ERa from NL to AL with relievers. They rarely face pitchers, so they don't get those free outs. You can try and claim all he did was face weak NL hitters, but he pitched in a hard division with some impressive lineups. You could make the argument that his stats were skewed by his home park, and I'll agree with that.

ndgt10
11-21-2007, 10:17 PM
It's the going rate for a top-tier set-up guy. Scot Shields just signed a 3-year extension with the Angels for $14.5 million. Shields and Linebrink are about as good as they get in that category. And I think Linebrink is a year younger.
I'd rather have Shields.

DeuceUnit
11-21-2007, 10:17 PM
There's my first answer to "Which name will we curse the most in the Summer of 2008?"

If he's anything like he was in Milwaukee, we just gave a guy almost $5 million a year for a $500k arm. However, if he bounces back to 2006 form, this might be a great signing. Still stinks like a Macdougal to me.

Doubt it.

CWSpalehoseCWS
11-21-2007, 10:18 PM
WHO else did you want? Rivera? You gotta be kidding me. Linebrink had a better ERA in years OTHER than just last years sampling anyways.

Exactly. How are we supposed to upgrade our team otherwise?

ilsox7
11-21-2007, 10:18 PM
I'd rather have Shields.

Except you couldn't have had Shields.

wealz07
11-21-2007, 10:19 PM
The only way this move is tolerable is if you tell me that if/when Linebrink shows he can't handle the setup role he is immediately demoted to middle-relief. Unfortunately, with the kind of money he'll be making I think we'll see him in a setup role at least 2 months longer than his performance would otherwise warrant.

ndgt10
11-21-2007, 10:19 PM
Except you couldn't have had Shields.I know that, but there's no denying that Shields is a much better pitcher.

slowlearner
11-21-2007, 10:19 PM
... this feels like overpaying.

You're right, but if you need to go to FA to build your bullpen, you're probably going to overpay to one degree or another. That is unless you pull guys off the scrap heap, which is pretty tough to do consistently.

Kenny overpaid, but at least we have what should be a solid reliever.

KRS1
11-21-2007, 10:20 PM
his 3.50 ERAs in the NL will translate to 4.50 in the AL...

Like I said, it doesn't work anything close to that for RP's.

TomBradley72
11-21-2007, 10:20 PM
How do you blow 26 saves in 30 opportunities? I know stats can be misleading...but isn't that kind of shocking?

PalehosePlanet
11-21-2007, 10:22 PM
Big jump in his ERA, opponents SLG and OBP the last few years.

He has 4 saves in 30 save opportunities over the course of his career....not sure why he's worth such a long term commitment.....his 3.50 ERAs in the NL will translate to 4.50 in the AL...not my money and I hope he helps but this feels like overpaying.

Like I've said in other posts, he's a career NL'er exactly like Hermanson was when we acquired him for '05 accept Linebrink's numbers are much better overall than Hermanson's were. All good/great setup men have some somewhat down years. This is a good signing.

Jerko
11-21-2007, 10:22 PM
If he can get us thru the 8th inning without being turned into a "specialist" by the manager, this will help immensely. We can still use 26 pitchers in the 7th inning, and have Linebrink for the 8th, Jenks for the 9th......

ndgt10
11-21-2007, 10:24 PM
So since this is pretty much the money that we gained from the Garland trade, the trade looks like:

Garland for Cabrera and Linebrink.

:mad:

PalehosePlanet
11-21-2007, 10:25 PM
It's the going rate for a top-tier set-up guy. Scot Shields just signed a 3-year extension with the Angels for $14.5 million. Shields and Linebrink are about as good as they get in that category. And I think Linebrink is a year younger.

That's exactly right. All the best guesses were that he would get anywhere from 5-7 million a year by the columnists/prognosticators prerdicting where free agnets would go and how much they would make.

Frontman
11-21-2007, 10:26 PM
Nothing on the offical site, though. Think they're off for the holiday? Kinda weird that it would make the rounds on the radio, but nothing on the Sox site, nor WSCR or AM 1000's websites.

Is it just radio talk again?

sox1970
11-21-2007, 10:29 PM
Nothing on the offical site, though. Think they're off for the holiday? Kinda weird that it would make the rounds on the radio, but nothing on the Sox site, nor WSCR or AM 1000's websites.

Is it just radio talk again?

It's pending a physical next week according to Levine.

Plus they'll have to dump someone from the 40 man.

ndgt10
11-21-2007, 10:30 PM
It's pending a physical next week according to Levine.

Plus they'll have to dump someone from the 40 man.You have to give credit to Levine. He's always right on the breaking news for the sox. The guy works harder than anybody in the business.

tstrike2000
11-21-2007, 10:30 PM
It seemed a little too much money for a reliever, but Linebrink's been a quality reliever for a while now. My only concern is how he'll handle switching leagues. That said, if this means we don't have to count on MacDougal in late innings, I'm all for it.

Corlose 15
11-21-2007, 10:31 PM
So, let me get this straight. In 2007 the Sox go young with the bullpen and get talented "arms" to solidify the pen. People ***** that they should've gotten veteran relievers.

In 2008 the Sox sign one of the better veteran relievers on the market, a good setup man at that, and people *****.

How exactly are the Sox supposed to improve the bullpen?

ndgt10
11-21-2007, 10:32 PM
It's pending a physical next week according to Levine.
What do these physicals consist of? Is it the typical grab a nut and cough kind?

ilsox7
11-21-2007, 10:34 PM
So, let me get this straight. In 2007 the Sox go young with the bullpen and get talented "arms" to solidify the pen. People ***** that they should've gotten veteran relievers.

In 2008 the Sox sign one of the better veteran relievers on the market, a good setup man at that, and people *****.

How exactly are the Sox supposed to improve the bullpen?

That's what folks do here. I've often said if I offered free money on WSI, someone would complain about it.

soltrain21
11-21-2007, 10:34 PM
So, let me get this straight. In 2007 the Sox go young with the bullpen and get talented "arms" to solidify the pen. People ***** that they should've gotten veteran relievers.

In 2008 the Sox sign one of the better veteran relievers on the market, a good setup man at that, and people *****.

How exactly are the Sox supposed to improve the bullpen?


That is what I was wondering. I wonder what it's like to be a fan that hates every move your team makes. It must be quite awful.

ilsox7
11-21-2007, 10:35 PM
You have to give credit to Levine. He's always right on the breaking news for the sox. The guy works harder than anybody in the business.

:rolling:

Thanks for the laugh!

jabrch
11-21-2007, 10:39 PM
There's no way to please this new generation of Sox fans.

That's a good addition to the club. That doesn't mean it will work out well - it may or may not. But there's no way to conclude that this is a bad move. It is far to early to say that.

PalehosePlanet
11-21-2007, 10:39 PM
:rolling:

Thanks for the laugh!

C'mon man, although he's often wrong, he does work hard and he seems to really dig the Sox. He was almost in tears when AM 1000 lost the games to the score.

ilsox7
11-21-2007, 10:41 PM
C'mon man, although he's often wrong, he does work hard and he seems to really dig the Sox. He was almost in tears when AM 1000 lost the games to the score.

Look around WSI a bit. You'll see how much he loves the Sox.

DickAllen72
11-21-2007, 10:42 PM
There's no way to please this new generation of Sox fans.

That's a good addition to the club. That doesn't mean it will work out well - it may or may not. But there's no way to conclude that this is a bad move. It is far to early to say that.
:thumbsup:

Frontman
11-21-2007, 10:43 PM
C'mon man, although he's often wrong, he does work hard and he seems to really dig the Sox. He was almost in tears when AM 1000 lost the games to the score.

And he immediately started covering Cubs games from Wrigley. He sounds like he's crying any time he talks! Levine and Coppock, talking baseball. Granted, neither one actually DOES the show anymore, but hey, THEY ARE TALKING BASEBALL! :rolleyes:

Back to the topic on hand. Per the physical makes more sense that it hasn't been put up online as well as on ESPN's ticker. Once he clears, then it would become "offical."

PalehosePlanet
11-21-2007, 10:44 PM
That is what I was wondering. I wonder what it's like to be a fan that hates every move your team makes. It must be quite awful.

Welcome to Negativity Land, because that's what WSI for the most part has become. This is where people clamor for the trading of world series hero Paul Konerko and lament the loss of Ross Gload. Go figure...

Lip Man 1
11-21-2007, 10:46 PM
Corlose:

You are 100% correct. Great post!

Regarding this signing, I think it's absolutely terrific news. Given the absolute garbage that's been in the bullpen the past two seasons the LAST thing that I want to do is come back with basically the same motley crew and "hope" they somehow get better.

Hope is for franchise's like the Cubs and Devil Rays and Pirates. The Sox franchise should be above that.

Now get at least one more guy (two would be better) and can folks like Ole' MacDougle, Sisco and AAArdsma and things should get better. At least they can't possibly get worse!

Lip

Lorenzo Barcelo
11-21-2007, 10:50 PM
Pending the Sox did sign Linebrink, do we lose any draft picks because of the signing?

Brian26
11-21-2007, 10:50 PM
If I had the choice of spending $100 million on one player (Torii) or investing the same amount of money in filling three or four holes on this team, I'd prefer the latter course. I don't mind this move.

the1tab
11-21-2007, 10:51 PM
Compare these stats from the last year Pre-White Sox:


Scott Linebrink 2007 5-6 3.71 ERA 70.1 IP 33 R 29 ER 12 HR 25 BB 50 K
Mike MacDougal 2005 5-6 3.33 ERA 70.1 IP 32 R 26 ER 6 HR 24 BB 72 K

ilsox7
11-21-2007, 10:51 PM
Pending the Sox did sign Linebrink, do we lose any draft picks because of the signing?

Well, we can't lose our 1st round pick. So that's good news.

sox1970
11-21-2007, 10:52 PM
Pending the Sox did sign Linebrink, do we lose any draft picks because of the signing?

Yes, he's a Type A free agent, so the Brewers get the Sox 2nd round pick.

Lip Man 1
11-21-2007, 10:52 PM
Whhhhhaaaaattttttt.

Lip

Frontman
11-21-2007, 10:52 PM
Welcome to Negativity Land, because that's what WSI for the most part has become. This is where people clamor for the trading of world series hero Paul Konerko and lament the loss of Ross Gload. Go figure...

I never clamored for Paulie being traded. I'm just open to the possibility.

I mean, you're right, they'd never trade or release a guy who hit a game changing home run in the World Series now, would they?

:pods:
"You mean I get to stay?"

Hell no, Scott. Get the heck out of here, just leave your smoking hot wife! Thanks for the memories!!!

ilsox7
11-21-2007, 10:52 PM
Compare these stats from the last year Pre-White Sox:

WLERAIPRERHRBBKScott Linebrink2007563.7170.13329122550Mike MacDougal2005563.3370.1322662472

Well, that explains it all!

Lorenzo Barcelo
11-21-2007, 10:53 PM
Yes, he's a Type A free agent, so the Brewers get the Sox 2nd round pick.

I can live with that. :cool:

KRS1
11-21-2007, 10:54 PM
Well, that explains it all!

:redneck

Domeshot17
11-21-2007, 10:56 PM
If I had the choice of spending $100 million on one player (Torii) or investing the same amount of money in filling three or four holes on this team, I'd prefer the latter course. I don't mind this move.

I have to agree to an extent.

One guy I am still wondering if we are looking at is Alexi Ramirez. He is a fine CF, not mlb proven, but younger, would come cheaper, and might be more offensively talented then hunter or Rowand. With Contreras here we might have a good cuban connection.

the1tab
11-21-2007, 10:56 PM
Well, that explains it all!

it didn't paste well, sorry

Sockinchisox
11-21-2007, 10:56 PM
4 yrs for a reliever is always terrible, this is a Baltimore Orioles type signing.

Hopefully it works out.

the1tab
11-21-2007, 10:58 PM
Compare these stats from the last year Pre-White Sox:

Scott Linebrink 2007 5-6 3.71 ERA 70.1 IP 33 R 29 ER 12 HR 25 BB 50 K
Mike MacDougal 2005 5-6 3.33 ERA 70.1 IP 32 R 26 ER 6 HR 24 BB 72 K

What scares me is that Linebrink had almost an identical year to MacDougal's final pre-Sox season.

soltrain21
11-21-2007, 10:58 PM
Compare these stats from the last year Pre-White Sox:


Scott Linebrink 2007 5-6 3.71 ERA 70.1 IP 33 R 29 ER 12 HR 25 BB 50 K
Mike MacDougal 2005 5-6 3.33 ERA 70.1 IP 32 R 26 ER 6 HR 24 BB 72 K


Oh yeah, that's right. I forgot about the part where everybody's career plays out the exact same way.

ilsox7
11-21-2007, 10:58 PM
it didn't paste well, sorry

Regardless, they are different players. The comparison doesn't really add much to the discussion, IMO.

ilsox7
11-21-2007, 10:59 PM
4 yrs for a reliever is always terrible, this is a Baltimore Orioles type signing.

Hopefully it works out.

The problem is, what is the alternative? If you can answer that, then let's talk. Otherwise, we deal with what we had last year.

SABRSox
11-21-2007, 11:02 PM
Compare these stats from the last year Pre-White Sox:


Scott Linebrink 2007 5-6 3.71 ERA 70.1 IP 33 R 29 ER 12 HR 25 BB 50 K
Mike MacDougal 2005 5-6 3.33 ERA 70.1 IP 32 R 26 ER 6 HR 24 BB 72 K

What kind of terrible analysis is this? This doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

DeadMoney
11-21-2007, 11:07 PM
I just looked everywhere on the net that could have more info and nothing is out yet. Although, I did see something that said Linebrink was going to 'wait out' the FA market, so I'm taking a wait and see approach with this one.

And a little bit of a hijack...
When searching Linebrink's name, I came across an article featuring this quote about the Yankees (written today; post-Rivera signing, which makes it odd):

Link (http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-2/1195623559154250.xml&coll=1)

"But after shaky Kyle Farnsworth, bullpen experience is limited; Edwar Ramirez, Ross Ohlendorf, Chris Britton and Brian Bruney are candidates, and Eiland mentioned Matt DeSalvo, Jeff Karstens and Steven White as minor-league starters who could push for a relief spot. The Yankees will make a run at Chicago White Sox closer Bobby Jenks, have interest in re-signing Luis Vizcaino and have been tied to free agents Ron Mahay and Scott Linebrink."

Sockinchisox
11-21-2007, 11:07 PM
Odd, that no one else has said anything about this, maybe it was Levine jumping the gun.

TomC727
11-21-2007, 11:08 PM
It's pending a physical next week according to Levine.

Plus they'll have to dump someone from the 40 man.

MLB physicals are anything but the standard turn your head and cough thing. It depends on the team but some of the physicals even consist of MRI's and CT Scans of shoulders, knees, etc. It just depends on the team and the player involved.

oeo
11-21-2007, 11:10 PM
All I have to say, is the reaction around here proves the theory that they can do nothing right. Last year, people whined because they didn't spend money. Now they do, and it's wrong. Make up your minds.

I like the signing. Keep 'em coming Kenny.

DeadMoney
11-21-2007, 11:11 PM
Odd, that no one else has said anything about this, maybe it was Levine jumping the gun.

This wouldn't surprise me. But, being that it's the night before Thanksgiving at 11 PM, it's also possible that no one wants to 'work' to find out (other than Levine). I'd bet on the former though.

DSpivack
11-21-2007, 11:12 PM
All I have to say, is the reaction around here proves the theory that they can do nothing right. Last year, people whined because they didn't spend money. Now they do, and it's wrong. Make up your minds.

I like the signing. Keep 'em coming Kenny.

I didn't love the Garland/Cabrera trade, but don't see any negatives to sign a reliever, arguably our greatest weakness.

HebrewHammer
11-21-2007, 11:15 PM
Plus they'll have to dump someone from the 40 man.

Dump someone from the 40 man, hmmmm? This could be a tough decision...


http://www.nwherald.com/baseball/photos/gonzalez626.jpg
"Why are my bags packed???"

Hitmen77
11-21-2007, 11:28 PM
Hopefully he can return to form. The Padres cashed in on him very well, and I am not in the party who thinks they dumped him because they were down him, but rather that they knew they weren't going to be able to pay him, and decided to get something instead.

Quick question, since he is a type A FA, what picks do we lose?

Pending the Sox did sign Linebrink, do we lose any draft picks because of the signing?

Well, we can't lose our 1st round pick. So that's good news.

Yes, he's a Type A free agent, so the Brewers get the Sox 2nd round pick.

Teams with lousy W-L records the previous season get a break on the draft pick they have to give up. This is just about the only good thing about the Sox losing 90 games last year.

I'm not sure about the specifics. Is it that most teams would lose a 1st round pick, but a team with a poor record loses a 2nd round pick?

Domeshot17
11-21-2007, 11:30 PM
Teams with lousy W-L records the previous season get a break on the draft pick they have to give up. This is just about the only good thing about the Sox losing 90 games last year.

I'm not sure about the specifics. Is it that most teams would lose a 1st round pick, but a team with a poor record loses a 2nd round pick?

I don't remember if its top 10 or top 15, but its either the top 10 or top 15 picks are protected, thats why the sandwhich picks are given to kind of even it out.

The idea being a team like Tampa or Pitt would never be any better, because they would have to choose building through the draft OR FA, but would be unable to do both.

Sockinchisox
11-21-2007, 11:31 PM
Teams with lousy W-L records the previous season get a break on the draft pick they have to give up. This is just about the only good thing about the Sox losing 90 games last year.

I'm not sure about the specifics. Is it that most teams would lose a 1st round pick, but a team with a poor record loses a 2nd round pick?

I'm pretty sure team's with picks 1-15 have their picks saved, any other team 16 and up lose their 1st or 2nd round pick if they sign Type A FA.

Jjav829
11-21-2007, 11:31 PM
Well, it certainly seems to improve a weakness. Let's just hope we get the Linebrink of 03-05, and not the one who the Brewers received.

Though, in fairness, even if he doesn't regain his 03-05 form, this could still work out given how bad our bullpen was last season.

Put me down as cautiously optimistic, though slightly worried this could blow up.

But still for now, I like it.

sox1970
11-21-2007, 11:31 PM
Teams with lousy W-L records the previous season get a break on the draft pick they have to give up. This is just about the only good thing about the Sox losing 90 games last year.

I'm not sure about the specifics. Is it that most teams would lose a 1st round pick, but a team with a poor record loses a 2nd round pick?

Yeah, 1-15 keep the first round pick. 16-30 would lose it.

Soxfest
11-21-2007, 11:33 PM
The money is high but I do like the Linebrink to Jenks bridge to victory. http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/gosoxretro.gif

pierzynski07
11-21-2007, 11:48 PM
Big jump in his ERA, opponents SLG and OBP the last few years.

He has 4 saves in 30 save opportunities over the course of his career....not sure why he's worth such a long term commitment.....his 3.50 ERAs in the NL will translate to 4.50 in the AL...not my money and I hope he helps but this feels like overpaying.

Blown saves for non-closers are a wasted stat (and some will say, saves are in general), as if you give up the lead in the 8th, you get a blown save, but if you don't lose it, you only get a hold.

kevingrt
11-21-2007, 11:48 PM
The money is high but I do like the Linebrink to Jenks bridge to victory.

Totally agree with you. It is steep in the financial column but a great bridge to #45. Great as in better then anything we had last year. I mean Ehron is awesome, but...

JohnTucker0814
11-21-2007, 11:52 PM
If we lose our 2nd round pick to the Brewers, do we get a compensation (sandwich pick) between the 2nd and 3rd rounds? How do the sandwich pics work?

DrCrawdad
11-21-2007, 11:53 PM
C'mon man, although he's often wrong, he does work hard and he seems to really dig the Sox. He was almost in tears when AM 1000 lost the games to the score.

I don't think LeVineLine went with the '05 Sox on a single roadtrip until near the end of the season. Of course, LeVineLine found ways to cover the Cubs season (away) opener, the Cubs home open, Cub road trips to Milwaukee & St. Louis - while the Sox were at home. On the other hand, LeVineLine was busy and couldn't see fit to go with the Sox to say, Detroit, Cleveland or Minnesota. LeVineLine, if asked, will point out that he did cover Sox road trips earlier in the season, such as the Sox road trip to Wrigley.

LeVineLine is an arrogant, Cubbie loving tool.

chisox77
11-21-2007, 11:56 PM
I like it. You have to pay for something decent these days, so do it. Getting Linebrink shortens the game, and may be able to put Thornton and Wassermann in more favorable situations to succeed.

This is very good news. I like the moves so far . . . an all-star SS and a solid late inning set-up reliever. As I've stated before, there's more to come.


:cool:

Soxfest
11-21-2007, 11:59 PM
I don't think LeVineLine went with the '05 Sox on a single roadtrip until near the end of the season. Of course, LeVineLine found ways to cover the Cubs season (away) opener, the Cubs home open, Cub road trips to Milwaukee & St. Louis - while the Sox were at home. On the other hand, LeVineLine was busy and couldn't see fit to go with the Sox to say, Detroit, Cleveland or Minnesota. LeVineLine, if asked, will point out that he did cover Sox road trips earlier in the season, such as the Sox road trip to Wrigley.

LeVineLine is an arrogant, Cubbie loving tool.


Agree on Bruuuce............100% He is a Cub Shill.

pierzynski07
11-22-2007, 12:02 AM
I don't think LeVineLine went with the '05 Sox on a single roadtrip until near the end of the season. Of course, LeVineLine found ways to cover the Cubs season (away) opener, the Cubs home open, Cub road trips to Milwaukee & St. Louis - while the Sox were at home. On the other hand, LeVineLine was busy and couldn't see fit to go with the Sox to say, Detroit, Cleveland or Minnesota. LeVineLine, if asked, will point out that he did cover Sox road trips earlier in the season, such as the Sox road trip to Wrigley.

LeVineLine is an arrogant, Cubbie loving tool.
Wow. You sure know quite a bit about Levine and where and when he went on the road.

PalehosePlanet
11-22-2007, 12:05 AM
I don't think LeVineLine went with the '05 Sox on a single roadtrip until near the end of the season. Of course, LeVineLine found ways to cover the Cubs season (away) opener, the Cubs home open, Cub road trips to Milwaukee & St. Louis - while the Sox were at home. On the other hand, LeVineLine was busy and couldn't see fit to go with the Sox to say, Detroit, Cleveland or Minnesota. LeVineLine, if asked, will point out that he did cover Sox road trips earlier in the season, such as the Sox road trip to Wrigley.

LeVineLine is an arrogant, Cubbie loving tool.

Alright, fair enough, I guess he had me fooled. I haven't listened to AM 1000 since they lost the Sox and wasn't aware of his allegiance to the cubs.

thomas35forever
11-22-2007, 12:12 AM
Great move. I love Linebrink.

whitesoxfan
11-22-2007, 12:18 AM
A reliever should not be getting a 4 year deal. I like Linebrink for a couple of years, but we really overpaid here. This looks a lot like the deals that Hendry shelled out for Eyre and Howry.

Navarro's Talent
11-22-2007, 12:29 AM
I like it. Even if he doesn't translate extremely well to the AL, he's still better than what we had this season. It's an upgrade, that's for sure.

Rockabilly
11-22-2007, 12:39 AM
great move by KW now we just need another solid bullpen guy

JB98
11-22-2007, 12:48 AM
A reliever should not be getting a 4 year deal. I like Linebrink for a couple of years, but we really overpaid here. This looks a lot like the deals that Hendry shelled out for Eyre and Howry.

That's precisely it. Those Cubs moves were ridiculed here with good reason. If we were giving Scott Linebrink two years, I would applaud the move. Four years? The risk is greater than the reward.

gobears1987
11-22-2007, 01:07 AM
Edit: My mind is gone. Not being in school this week has made me lose track of days.

Wednesday Deals = good

DrCrawdad
11-22-2007, 01:10 AM
Wow. You sure know quite a bit about Levine and where and when he went on the road.

Back in '05, when ESPN AM1000 was the Sox radio home I listened more frequently to that station. And as a result, I heard many of LeVineLine's comments and reports. So then in '05 I started a discussion here at WSI about "Where's LeVineLine? (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=47589&highlight=Levineline)" And as far as I could tell 38 games into the season (or about a 1/4 of the season) he had covered ZERO Sox road trips while on the other hand covering numerous Cubbie road trips. "Fair and Balanced" LeVineLine is not.

JB98
11-22-2007, 01:11 AM
There's no way to please this new generation of Sox fans.

I don't think that's it at all. Rarely has there been a move made that 100 percent of the fan base agrees with. There are always going to be some who question the wisdom of any given move. There are always going to be some who applaud. I don't think the two camps are the same exact people every time.

I don't see why everyone here should just nod and say, "Yes, KW," and "Yes, Ozzie," to every single decision that is ever made. We would be Kool-Aid drinkers if that was the case.

I feel like I've been behind the majority of KW's moves during his tenure as GM. But I don't consider him a genius. Nor do I consider him infallible. And in this particular case, I think he overreached and overpaid, if indeed these reports on the years and money are accurate.

DrCrawdad
11-22-2007, 01:12 AM
Alright, fair enough, I guess he had me fooled. I haven't listened to AM 1000 since they lost the Sox and wasn't aware of his allegiance to the cubs.

LeVineLine is a Cubbie lover and a writer for (another) Cubbie propaganda outlet, VineLine.

MrT27
11-22-2007, 01:27 AM
So because Levine may be a Cub fan means he can't report on another team and if he does he isn't good at it :?:

Domeshot17
11-22-2007, 01:50 AM
So because Levine may be a Cub fan means he can't report on another team and if he does he isn't good at it :?:


Levine can report on whoever he wants

The problem is, he is usually horribly wrong. There is a reason he is such a joke.

Sockinchisox
11-22-2007, 02:45 AM
The Linebrink news is finally spreading.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071122&content_id=2306616&vkey=hotstove2007&fext=.jsp

and rotoworld's take on it:

The White Sox and Scott Linebrink have agreed to a four-year, $19 million deal, ESPN 1000 in Chicago is reporting.
Sort of a bad break for the Brewers, as they'll have to settle for a second-rounder to go along with their supplemental first-round pick. As horrible as their pen beyond Bobby Jenks was last season, it figured that the White Sox would bring in one of the top free-agent setup men this winter. This may add some fuel to the rumor that the White Sox will trade Jenks for a center fielder -- Melky Cabrera has been mentioned -- but we doubt that will happen. Linebrink figures to give up a lot of homers moving to the AL Central and U.S. Cellular Field. Still, he'll be a durable and fairly reliable setup man, likely for the life of the deal.

Jerome
11-22-2007, 02:51 AM
Yeah it seems like overpaying but after last year, overpaying for bullpen help is just what this team needs.

CWSpalehoseCWS
11-22-2007, 04:35 AM
Yeah right, the Sox are gonna trade Jenks...

:rolleyes:

Sometimes I just don't know what those rotoworld writers are thinking.

Mohoney
11-22-2007, 06:34 AM
So since this is pretty much the money that we gained from the Garland trade, the trade looks like:

Garland for Cabrera and Linebrink.

:mad:

Upgrades at SS and the bullpen is about what I would hope to get for Garland. I would have preferred to get a good young arm from the Angels in lieu of the cash in the deal, but not many GMs are trading away young talent for 1 year rentals anymore, so you just have to take what you can get.

Realistically, you have to look at it as 4 years of Linebrink and 1 year (so far, but I think an extension will be coming) of Cabrera for 1 year of Garland.

Mohoney
11-22-2007, 06:54 AM
I wonder what the next bullpen move will be now. Maybe Ray King as a LH specialist? With the way Ozzie swears by the lefty-lefty matchup, sometimes even to the detriment of his own team (Neal Cotts in 2006 comes to mind right away), a guy that can specialize as effectively as King could be a fit here.

Maybe Kenny takes a low-risk gamble on Kerry Wood as a reclamation project for Don Cooper?

Maybe there's another trade coming that brings in a reliever?

Maybe they try Lance Broadway in the bullpen next year?

champagne030
11-22-2007, 07:25 AM
Upgrades at SS and the bullpen is about what I would hope to get for Garland. I would have preferred to get a good young arm from the Angels in lieu of the cash in the deal, but not many GMs are trading away young talent for 1 year rentals anymore, so you just have to take what you can get.

Realistically, you have to look at it as 4 years of Linebrink and 1 year (so far, but I think an extension will be coming) of Cabrera for 1 year of Garland.

The numbers come close for 1 year of Linebrink and Cabrera for 1 year of Garland. Assuming Linebrink's salary isn't front or backloaded (12-10+1.5-4.75), the Sox only needed to increase payroll $1.25M for '08. Beyond 2008, the dollars will increase significantly to keep both.

itsnotrequired
11-22-2007, 07:38 AM
I'm pretty sure team's with picks 1-15 have their picks saved, any other team 16 and up lose their 1st or 2nd round pick if they sign Type A FA.

Compensation is now via sandwich round only. Signing teams no longer lose their pick to the team that lost the FA. In any event, 1-15 is protected so the Sox wouldn't have lost their first pick under the old system anyway.

EDIT: Bah, I was thinking of the Type B compensation. Nevermind. 1-15 are still protected though.

Frater Perdurabo
11-22-2007, 07:44 AM
The bullpen needed significant improvement and KW signed the best available FA reliever. I'm not going to criticize this move.

Now, sign Rowand and trade Paulie to the Angels for Shields, Figgins and Kotchman! :tongue:

Please don't go nuclear on me, JB. I hope you know by now that my "trade Paulie" proposals are more schtick than substance. :tongue:

KyWhiSoxFan
11-22-2007, 08:13 AM
Is the Linebrink deal consumated or is this still a rumor or unsubstantiated report?

Bucky F. Dent
11-22-2007, 08:18 AM
Well, we absolutely had to upgrade the BP, and this was the best non-closer on the FA market. So you can hardly complain about the guy we got.

The length of the contract, maybe. But sometimes you have to sweeten the pot to secure the top asset.

Frater Perdurabo
11-22-2007, 08:18 AM
Is the Linebrink deal consumated or is this still a rumor or unsubstantiated report?

The Sox web site (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071122&content_id=2306616&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws) is reporting that it's agreed to in principle but pending a physical and may not become official until early next week.

downstairs
11-22-2007, 08:19 AM
I don't know why this is so hard to grasp for people:

Middle relievers are pitchers who can't start and can't close. They are all relatively bad. There is no reason to ever get excited about a middle reliever, nor is it going to help anyone to complain that your team needs more middle relief.

If any middle reliever were good, they would be starters for some team, somewhere.

Frontman
11-22-2007, 08:20 AM
So because Levine may be a Cub fan means he can't report on another team and if he does he isn't good at it :?:

His being a Cub fan has nothing to do with how bad he is at times.

Hitmenof77
11-22-2007, 08:46 AM
Kenny did overpay for Linebrink. I was hoping with the success of Japanese relievers, Shingo (so it was only for a year) Saito, the M's closer a few years back, Okajima, and Otsuka, who pitched with Linebrink with the Padres and is now on the Rangers, Kenny would have looked into that market. The Indians signed Masahide Kobayashi and the Royals were interested in Yasuhiko Yabuta, who struck out ARod, Derek Lee and Johnny Damon.

Almost all these relievers signed for less than $2 million.

Maybe Kenny may still sign Yabuta but after spending about $4 million on Linebrink, it doesn't look good.

PorkChopExpress
11-22-2007, 08:56 AM
So since this is pretty much the money that we gained from the Garland trade, the trade looks like:

Garland for Cabrera and Linebrink.

:mad:

And you're unhappy about that? That is great value for Garland.

wealz07
11-22-2007, 08:59 AM
Yeah right, the Sox are gonna trade Jenks...

:rolleyes:

Sometimes I just don't know what those rotoworld writers are thinking.

All options are at least worth considering. If dealing Jenks gets you Carl Crawford for center and allows you to keep a Gonzalez or a De Los Santos it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.

soxfanreggie
11-22-2007, 09:15 AM
Does anyone think that JR told KW that he will open the checkbook and inject an extra $10 million a year into the payroll? If we can get Aaron here, that won't be a bad consolation to missing out on Hunter because we can take the savings and invest them in someone else.

Right now, our payroll is high because we have a very expensive middle of the order. I think 2-5 gives us around $45 million. 4 players of the 25 are 40%. Throw in Mark, Jose, and Javy (36 for the 3) and you'e looking at approx $81 mil for 7 guys. However, a few of those guys come off the books soon and we are getting $9.5 mil for Jim and Javy.

Maybe JR realizes that we have to spend more now to get better and compete. If someone said we would sign Scott Linebrink, I'd be happy. I would have expected a 3 year $13 mil deal or so.

Flight #24
11-22-2007, 09:54 AM
Well, I'm one of those who wanted a veteran MR, and this is arguably the best one available so can't complain. As Jjav said though, there's risk because FA MRs frequently hit the market after being used a ton and their new team ends up paying for the old team's usage. Hopefully they get something more like 03-05 Scott and not 07 (which after the move to USCF/AL would be....not good).

I also don't mind the deal....if it's an indication that they're changing their financial constraints/rules somewhat. If on the other hand we hear "well, we couldn't offer [CF] more then $X because we spent $5m/yr on Linebrink", then I'll be disappointed because I'm not convinced he's the solution and I think for example a Rowand is more of a sure thing in CF.

But good offseason so far, IMO. They absolutely need to get an FA OF though. If they're forced to trade for someone good, it'll cost IMO too much of what little farm depth exists. Go get Rowand and give him his $12-14M. And yes, he'll get that much when Hunter gets $18 and Matthews last year for IIRC $12. The market is NOT correcting anytime soon.
http://allstarz.hollywood.com/~malkovich/piccies/pokerface.jpg
"Pay that man his money"

soxinem1
11-22-2007, 10:19 AM
Well, the Sox are in a pretty desperate position when it comes to the bullpen. And like I said, this deal won't cripple the team if it doesn't work out. But if it does work out, you've just shortened the game by an inning.

C'mon, I like the guy too, but nearly $5 million a year for a middle reliever? Especially after we cut up PHI for overpaying JC Romero and BAL for doing the same with Jaime Walker and Danys Baez.

I'd rather have had Luis Vizcaino back for 2-3 mil/per and probably similar if not better results.

champagne030
11-22-2007, 10:36 AM
Well, I'm one of those who wanted a veteran MR, and this is arguably the best one available so can't complain. As Jjav said though, there's risk because FA MRs frequently hit the market after being used a ton and their new team ends up paying for the old team's usage. Hopefully they get something more like 03-05 Scott and not 07 (which after the move to USCF/AL would be....not good).

I also don't mind the deal....if it's an indication that they're changing their financial constraints/rules somewhat. If on the other hand we hear "well, we couldn't offer [CF] more then $X because we spent $5m/yr on Linebrink", then I'll be disappointed because I'm not convinced he's the solution and I think for example a Rowand is more of a sure thing in CF.

But good offseason so far, IMO. They absolutely need to get an FA OF though. If they're forced to trade for someone good, it'll cost IMO too much of what little farm depth exists. Go get Rowand and give him his $12-14M. And yes, he'll get that much when Hunter gets $18 and Matthews last year for IIRC $12. The market is NOT correcting anytime soon.
http://allstarz.hollywood.com/~malkovich/piccies/pokerface.jpg
"Pay that man his money"

Agreed....and KW still has his work to do after a FA OF. The problem I see is that there isn't a FA OF that bats leadoff. We need to trade for that piece to the puzzle. There's not enough FA starters or relievers to make a starting lineup that includes Owens and Richar a legitimate contender.

Hokiesox
11-22-2007, 10:36 AM
What about Shannon Stewart?

PalehosePlanet
11-22-2007, 10:39 AM
C'mon, I like the guy too, but nearly $5 million a year for a middle reliever? Especially after we cut up PHI for overpaying JC Romero and BAL for doing the same with Jaime Walker and Danys Baez.

I'd rather have had Luis Vizcaino back for 2-3 mil/per and probably similar if not better results.

Vizcaino is not in the same class as Linebrink; not even close. As I said earlier, most prognosticators had Linebrink getting anywhere from 6-8 million per year in a 3 year deal, and most had him going to Houston to be their closer. The fact that we got him for 4/19 is actually under market value --- believe it or not.

spiffie
11-22-2007, 10:43 AM
Well, I'm one of those who wanted a veteran MR, and this is arguably the best one available so can't complain. As Jjav said though, there's risk because FA MRs frequently hit the market after being used a ton and their new team ends up paying for the old team's usage. Hopefully they get something more like 03-05 Scott and not 07 (which after the move to USCF/AL would be....not good).

I also don't mind the deal....if it's an indication that they're changing their financial constraints/rules somewhat. If on the other hand we hear "well, we couldn't offer [CF] more then $X because we spent $5m/yr on Linebrink", then I'll be disappointed because I'm not convinced he's the solution and I think for example a Rowand is more of a sure thing in CF.

But good offseason so far, IMO. They absolutely need to get an FA OF though. If they're forced to trade for someone good, it'll cost IMO too much of what little farm depth exists. Go get Rowand and give him his $12-14M. And yes, he'll get that much when Hunter gets $18 and Matthews last year for IIRC $12. The market is NOT correcting anytime soon.
http://allstarz.hollywood.com/~malkovich/piccies/pokerface.jpg
"Pay that man his money"
Aaron Rowand has alligator blood.

slavko
11-22-2007, 10:54 AM
A reliever should not be getting a 4 year deal. I like Linebrink for a couple of years, but we really overpaid here. This looks a lot like the deals that Hendry shelled out for Eyre and Howry.

Maybe worse. Look at the contract money, years, and ERA's of the three pitchers and decide for yourselves. Remember how torqued most of us were when those two were signed two years ago? This goes against my core beliefs that relievers are an expendable commodity to be discarded for fresh meat when the need arises.

Hoping for the best.

palehosepub
11-22-2007, 10:55 AM
Is Rowand a sure sign now?

btrain929
11-22-2007, 11:00 AM
Well, we absolutely had to upgrade the BP, and this was the best non-closer on the FA market. So you can hardly complain about the guy we got.

The length of the contract, maybe. But sometimes you have to sweeten the pot to secure the top asset.

And I'd rather have him lengthen a contract for 4 years at around 5 mil per, then to lengthen the contract to sweeten the pot to 6-7 years at 15/16 mil per.

Nice job KW.....keep doing what you do.

Jjav829
11-22-2007, 11:36 AM
Is Rowand a sure sign now?

No one is ever a sure sign.

JermaineDye05
11-22-2007, 11:40 AM
Could someone fill me in on what Linebrink throws? How fast is his fastball? and is it straight or does it have pretty decent movement.

Hendu
11-22-2007, 11:41 AM
Linebrink's been pretty darn good over the last few years. I hope he can be a reliable bridge to big Bobby.

Sure, that's a lot of money but it's the new reality that we have to accept. If you want a big reliever, that's the going rate.

Jjav829
11-22-2007, 11:43 AM
Could someone fill me in on what Linebrink throws?

A baseball. :smile:

Mid-90's fastball with a change and splitter (usually his out pitch).

JermaineDye05
11-22-2007, 11:44 AM
Linebrink's been pretty darn good over the last few years. I hope he can be a reliable bridge to big Bobby.

Sure, that's a lot of money but it's the new reality that we have to accept. If you want a big reliever, that's the going rate.

For what Rivera got, it's not too bad.

itsnotrequired
11-22-2007, 11:51 AM
For what Rivera got, it's not too bad.

Rivera got "thank you" money. No other team would have given him a deal like that.

jabrch
11-22-2007, 11:52 AM
For what Rivera got, it's not too bad.

The money is not bad at all...The question is how well he pitches. And there's no way any of us can tell if he will be worth it. I do know that in his worst season in a long time last year, he had a 3.71/1.322 split between SD and Mil. That't not great - but it still would be better than most of what we got from our pen and would make us better. He's a career NL guy, maybe moving to the AL might help - some guys won't be as familiar with him as before? If he returns to 2003-2005 form, he'd be a huge impact on our pen.

btrain929
11-22-2007, 11:56 AM
A baseball. :smile:

Mid-90's fastball with a change and splitter (usually his out pitch).

Wow. I thought he was at 90 tops, more of a control pitcher. Mid-90's? Now I can see why KW dished out the cash for him :tongue:
Honestly, I don't know how anyone can NOT like this deal. At 30, Danny Baez got a 3 year 19 million dollar deal, and at 31 J.C Romero got a 3 year 12 million dollar deal. Neither of these guys were even considered the top free agent bullpen guy on the market at the time of those deals either. Would you prefer Kenny try to trade for bullpen guys? Remember how that worked last year? If 4/19 is overpaying for the best bullpen man on the market, I think it's worth the gamble.

jabrch
11-22-2007, 12:01 PM
Honestly, I don't know how anyone can NOT like this deal.

You haven't been around long - but let me explain. There are some people here who will ***** about absolutely everything. There have been a total of 5 minutes in WSI History where people weren't *****ing about something.

Ignore them - at this point, the worst you can say about this deal for sure is that it is risky given that it is 4 years.

btrain929
11-22-2007, 12:08 PM
You haven't been around long - but let me explain. There are some people here who will ***** about absolutely everything. There have been a total of 5 minutes in WSI History where people weren't *****ing about something.

Ignore them - at this point, the worst you can say about this deal for sure is that it is risky.

Somewhat, yes, but the reward definitely outweighs the risk in my eyes.
I hear ya, Jab. I just figured it'd be common sense that if someone out there doesn't like a move, a signing, or how KW filled a hole, to also offer up a suggestion on what he SHOULD HAVE done. Oh well, common sense is overrated anyways...

TDog
11-22-2007, 12:16 PM
Blown saves for non-closers are a wasted stat (and some will say, saves are in general), as if you give up the lead in the 8th, you get a blown save, but if you don't lose it, you only get a hold.

The stat for blown saves for middle relievers is more important than the hold stat. It may be more telling than the save stat, at least for the team if not for the individual. It reflects blown leads by the bullpen after the fifth inning.

As for the deal at hand, honestly, it has to be an improvement.

Bullpens can be terribly inconsistent from year to year. Some very effective relievers emerge with pedigrees of mediocrity. But a a pitcher solid ERA over three years can prove less than mediocre, if only for a couple of months.

Sign and trade. Develop great arms. You still don't know what you have until you make the call to the bullpen.

Jjav829
11-22-2007, 12:19 PM
You haven't been around long - but let me explain. There are some people here who will ***** about absolutely everything. There have been a total of 5 minutes in WSI History where people weren't *****ing about something.

Ignore them - at this point, the worst you can say about this deal for sure is that it is risky given that it is 4 years.

That about sums it up. KW went on the cheap for the bullpen last year and some people complained about it while others praised him for all the "power arms" he accumulated. We all saw how that worked out. This year KW spends some money on the pen and people complain. He's never going to please everyone.

4 years is probably too much, but sometimes you have to sacrifice to get a player. Maybe Linebrink would have rather gone to the Yankees or Braves or whoever for 3 years. But the Sox added a 4th year and that made the deal worth it for him. Meanwhile, maybe the Sox hated adding a 4th year, but figured that after last year's disaster of a bullpen, they had to add someone like Linebrink. And if that means that in the 4th year of the deal they'll be paying him $4-5 million for him to put up a 4.5 ERA, well, they'll eat that and hope he puts up 3 solid years.

Lip Man 1
11-22-2007, 12:25 PM
Bobby Jenks Comment to Scott Merkin, White Sox.com:

"Going with a lot of live, young arms didn't work for us," Jenks said. "It did in the beginning, and they have the stuff to have a future. But that's what hurt us. The experience level wasn't there."

And I agree with Flight. Nice signing, more work to do... at least another arm. Personally I hope they take a shot at getting Vizcaino back. The job he did in 05 was very much underappreciated.

As I see it right now they still need (in no particular order)....a center fielder, a left fielder, speed, a lead off guy (who may fill one of the outfield spots) and another relief arm.

Could be Rowand, Crisp, both or someone else in the outfield.

Lip

btrain929
11-22-2007, 12:33 PM
Bobby Jenks Comment to Scott Merkin, White Sox.com:

"Going with a lot of live, young arms didn't work for us," Jenks said. "It did in the beginning, and they have the stuff to have a future. But that's what hurt us. The experience level wasn't there."

And I agree with Flight. Nice signing, more work to do... at least another arm. Personally I hope they take a shot at getting Vizcaino back. The job he did in 05 was very much underappreciated.

As I see it right now they still need (in no particular order)....a center fielder, a left fielder, speed, a lead off guy (who may fill one of the outfield spots) and another relief arm.

Could be Rowand, Crisp, both or someone else in the outfield.

Lip

I'll take Andruw Jones, Reggie Willits, and one of Brian Fuentes, Octavio Dotel, Mike Timlin, or Joe Kennedy.

Lip Man 1
11-22-2007, 12:44 PM
Btrain:

Should that be in teal?

Andruw Jones' agent is SCOTT BORAS who last I saw was demanding a 5/100 million dollar deal.

THAT'S not going to happen with the White Sox.

And with the market not going to "correct" itself (despite what some folks may be desperately praying for) the odds are decent he'll get something close to that.

Lip

btrain929
11-22-2007, 12:52 PM
Btrain:

Should that be in teal?

Andruw Jones' agent is SCOTT BORAS who last I saw was demanding a 5/100 million dollar deal.

THAT'S not going to happen with the White Sox.

And with the market not going to "correct" itself (despite what some folks may be desperately praying for) the odds are decent he'll get something close to that.

Lip

Is that what Boras will try to get for him? Absolutely. Will he actually get that? At this point, I say it's highly unlikely. He has the most skill of the big 3 CF'ers, but batting .220 is hard for a GM to swallow when putting together a contract calling for 100 million. My guess is he'll get a 1-2 year deal from someone. If that's the case, I'd want and expect the Sox to be huge players. Now, of course, if there are GM's that will look beyond last yr and give him a 4-6 year contract, then no, we don't have a shot to land him. But if he takes a 1-2 year deal, we should go after him hard.

Lip Man 1
11-22-2007, 01:30 PM
Boras was quoted on ESPN.com Tuesday as saying that he wouldn't allow Jones to sign a one year deal "to prove himself" and then go through the free agent process again.

If you want him (at least right now) you better be prepared to ante up a multi year / multi, multi million dollar deal.

We'll see what reality brings but I'd be shocked if the Sox even sniffed at Jones, if for no other reason because they would rather not deal with his agent.

Lip

MCHSoxFan
11-22-2007, 01:40 PM
So, let me get this straight. In 2007 the Sox go young with the bullpen and get talented "arms" to solidify the pen. People ***** that they should've gotten veteran relievers.

In 2008 the Sox sign one of the better veteran relievers on the market, a good setup man at that, and people *****.

How exactly are the Sox supposed to improve the bullpen?

Exactly! That gets me so mad. In 2007, people complained...A LOT. Now, we got a guy who can be a good upgrade and it is the same old thing.

Guess we gotta wait till 08! :D:

jabrch
11-22-2007, 02:03 PM
if for no other reason because they would rather not deal with his agent.

More importantly - if for no other reason than Jones wants too much money coming off of a crappy year, and this team shouldn't make dumb investments like that.

Other franchises may have the luxury to make 15mm mistakes and recover from them. I'd rather not see if we can recover from that.

jabrch
11-22-2007, 02:06 PM
I hear ya, Jab. I just figured it'd be common sense

Wrong place for that sort of logic. There are at least two dozen posters here who would make better GMs than KW because they'd regularly find better players willing to play for less money than KW did. They'd hire better managers, because they themselves could do better than OG. They'd win more, because they know more about the game than the professionals. And they aren't afraid to tell you.

This is the wrong place and the wrong time to expect a lot of logic - certainly not coming from the usual suspects.

palehosepub
11-22-2007, 02:56 PM
I think the Sox now have to trade Konerko to the Dodgers pick up Matt Kemp or Jason Loney and other prospects. Trade those other propects and maybe Broadway to the Rays for Carl Crawford.

pierzynski07
11-22-2007, 04:19 PM
The stat for blown saves for middle relievers is more important than the hold stat. It may be more telling than the save stat, at least for the team if not for the individual. It reflects blown leads by the bullpen after the fifth inning.

As for the deal at hand, honestly, it has to be an improvement.

Bullpens can be terribly inconsistent from year to year. Some very effective relievers emerge with pedigrees of mediocrity. But a a pitcher solid ERA over three years can prove less than mediocre, if only for a couple of months.

Sign and trade. Develop great arms. You still don't know what you have until you make the call to the bullpen.
My issue is that simply having blown saves does not mean he's a bad pitcher. It could mean that he's asked to pitch in several tight situations, when one mistake will lead to a blown save. When you pitch in more of those innings, the more likely you are to blow one here or there. On the other hand, the long man in the bullpen, who's only in there for garbage time, will rarely pitch with a lead, and have less opportunities to blow a lead, and overall have fewer blown saves that the setup man.

So while Linebrink may have lost 20 or so games in the 8th, how many did he save (hold) in that same timespan?

Basically, the stats need to ALL be considered together.

Tragg
11-22-2007, 05:20 PM
Since mid 2006, Williams has acquired 6 middle relievers and they were all, not suprisingly, absolute flops. They were given opportunity after opportunity, including continuing to wheel out the hapless Bukvich and Meyers after September call ups when the young talent was up and available.
Considering that the veteran middle reliever approach failed, I'm surprised that they didn't try alternative approaches like using young pitchers in the pen or pursuing veteran ex starters, like they did in 2005.
I sincerely hope this effort, of which the Sox are tied into for 4 years, ends up better than the last 6 tries at a middle reliever. And he does have a better resume than most of Bukvich, Aaardsma, MacDougal, Meyers, etc..

Lip Man 1
11-22-2007, 06:44 PM
Cotts and Politte were "veteran ex-starters?"

Vizcaino was a "veteran ex-starter?"

Hmmmm.....let's see.

According to Retrosheet...

Politte started 16 games in his entire career before 2005. NONE since 2000.

Cotts started a whole five games in his career before 2005.

Vizcaino started ZERO games in his major league career before 2005.

Marte started ZERO games in his entire major league career before 2005.

The only guy in the bullpen that season who comes even close to your description of a "veteran ex starter" was Hermanson. His numbers showed 179 games started before 2005.

And as far as your comment about "using young pitchers" in the pen, what did you call the motely mop up crew last year....remember Massett, Sisco, Aardsma, Logan, Wassermann and so forth?

Collectively they seemed pretty young to me. But don't take my word for this. Here's Bobby Jenks to Scot Merkin of White Sox.com:


"Going with a lot of live, young arms didn't work for us. It did in the beginning, and they have the stuff to have a future. But that's what hurt us. The experience level wasn't there."

Lip

palehozenychicty
11-22-2007, 07:03 PM
Cotts and Politte were "veteran ex-starters?"

Vizcaino was a "veteran ex-starter?"

Hmmmm.....let's see.

According to Retrosheet...

Politte started 16 games in his entire career before 2005. NONE since 2000.

Cotts started a whole five games in his career before 2005.

Vizcaino started ZERO games in his major league career before 2005.

Marte started ZERO games in his entire major league career before 2005.

The only guy in the bullpen that season who comes even close to your description of a "veteran ex starter" was Hermanson. His numbers showed 179 games started before 2005.

And as far as your comment about "using young pitchers" in the pen, what did you call the motely mop up crew last year....remember Massett, Sisco, Aardsma, Logan, Wassermann and so forth?

Collectively they seemed pretty young to me. But don't take my word for this. Here's Bobby Jenks to Scot Merkin of White Sox.com:


"Going with a lot of live, young arms didn't work for us. It did in the beginning, and they have the stuff to have a future. But that's what hurt us. The experience level wasn't there."

Lip

They were young, but hardly talented. All of them were failed guns from incompetent organizations. If the Sox had a Chamberlin, Kennedy, Buchholz, or Jimenez in their system and didn't use them, we'd be irate.
This year, I feel like Broadway should be given a chance in the pen, as he showed poise in his few appearances. Now whether he can do it for a whole year remains to be seen, but you gotta try once. Signing/trading for quality, cheap arms is a thing of the past.

Lip Man 1
11-22-2007, 09:53 PM
Palehoz:

Just to be clear, I was responding to Tragg's comment that Kenny went out and got veteran ex-starters for the bullpen before the 2005 season.

The numbers say that contention was incorrect.

He also said the Sox should go with young arms in the bullpen...my comment was 'that's what they did last year' and it blew up in the organization's face.

19 games personally blown and lost by the bullpen after the 7th inning where they had the ball in their hands.

28 games personally blown and lost by the bullpen after the 7th inning where they had the ball in their hands over the past two seasons.

You can't win with that kind of production (or lack of production) out of the bullpen and it totally demoralizes a team to keep losing games that should be going into the win column.

Lip

palehozenychicty
11-22-2007, 09:55 PM
Palehoz:

Just to be clear, I was responding to Tragg's comment that Kenny went out and got veteran ex-starters for the bullpen before the 2005 season.

The numbers say that contention was incorrect.

He also said the Sox should go with young arms in the bullpen...my comment was 'that's what they did last year' and it blew up in the organization's face.

19 games personally blown and lost by the bullpen after the 7th inning where they had the ball in their hands.

28 games personally blown and lost by the bullpen after the 7th inning where they had the ball in their hands over the past two seasons.

You can't win with that kind of production (or lack of production) out of the bullpen and it totally demoralizes a team to keep losing games that should be going into the win column.

Lip

All systems clear. :D:

gregory18n
11-22-2007, 10:09 PM
i still want us to make an offer to Mike Timlin

JermaineDye05
11-22-2007, 10:13 PM
i still want us to make an offer to Mike Timlin

I wouldn't be surprised if Kenny has already had a meeting with him.

palehozenychicty
11-22-2007, 10:13 PM
i still want us to make an offer to Mike Timlin

I'd rather go after Ray King, Vizcaino, and then put Broadway in the pen assuming he makes the team. I think having one young arm in there will benefit everyone. Timlin is gritty, but I would just pass. As far as Linebrink, the years are not pretty, but he was the best commodity on the market. This is what happens when you don't have a strong farm/scouting development system. You dip into FA and overpay, and that's what we had to do. It is what it is.

santo=dorf
11-22-2007, 10:51 PM
i still want us to make an offer to Mike Timlin
..and why exactly would the 41 year old want to leave the defending world champs with deep pockets?

MetroPD
11-22-2007, 10:57 PM
Finally a step in the right direction.

balke
11-22-2007, 11:17 PM
I didn't like what I saw of Linebrink last season, but at this point its a good move. Hopefully it pans out and he can get back to his old form.

Now, hopefully KW can look at the likes of a project pitcher like Rusch. Without Torii, the Sox need to think about bulking up the pitching staff with some of that money laying around. Maybe even trade to solve the outfield problem and settle for Owens in CF with a good LFer.

TDog
11-23-2007, 12:01 AM
My issue is that simply having blown saves does not mean he's a bad pitcher. It could mean that he's asked to pitch in several tight situations, when one mistake will lead to a blown save. When you pitch in more of those innings, the more likely you are to blow one here or there. On the other hand, the long man in the bullpen, who's only in there for garbage time, will rarely pitch with a lead, and have less opportunities to blow a lead, and overall have fewer blown saves that the setup man.

So while Linebrink may have lost 20 or so games in the 8th, how many did he save (hold) in that same timespan?

Basically, the stats need to ALL be considered together.

Of course all stats need to be considered together. Even then stats don't tell you much. That's true of all stats. I have seen some weak .300 hitters.

But if a middle or non-closing late reliever is blowing saves, he isn't doing the job he's being called upon to do. It may be that he consistently comes into the game in difficult situations, in games where the starter gets into fatal trouble and ends up with the loss. But if a reliever is blowing those saves, he isn't doing his job.

It's possible that he can succeed in a different role, of course. But teams that are very good have bullpens that don't lose a lot of leads from the seventh inning on.

California Sox
11-23-2007, 12:33 AM
Saves to blown saves is a deceptive ratio for middle relievers. They get blown saves, for instance if they come into a 4-3 game with the bases loaded and induce a double play. If they get out of the inning, the closer comes on and the middle guy doesn't get the save. It's a bizarre stat that could possibly be adjusted. Dare I suggest the dreaded "blown hold"?

Like everyone else on the board, that fourth year looks bad to me. So does the fact that SD traded their setup guy in the middle of the pennant race. If he was pitching at all well they would have held onto him.

Foulke You
11-23-2007, 01:13 AM
I'm cautiously optimistic about this move. Obviously, KW had to do something to help the pen in '08 and I'm sure he paid out a lot more than he wanted but that '07 pen was a DISASTER. There is no way he could have gone into '08 without that 8th inning bridge pitcher to get to Jenks. Linebrink was one of the better FA relievers in a thin market and for better or worse, 4yrs $19 million is the going rate for solid middle relievers these days. (Remember when that could have gotten a decent starting pitcher? My, how times have changed!) Anyway, a hole on the team has been filled.

The only two things that concern me about this move is that Linebrink is unproven in the AL and he has also given up a lot of HRs the past couple years. Our ballpark YIELDS a lot of HRs in the warm weather too. However, if he posts a solid 3.00 E.R.A. and doesn't walk a lot of guys, I think it is a good move and his veteran status could help anchor the pen. With Jenks, Linebrink, Thornton, and Wasserman available to Guillen, I feel a bit better about the '08 bullpen. If MacDougal can also rebound into '06 form, it could end up being a very solid bullpen indeed.

JermaineDye05
11-23-2007, 01:18 AM
I'm cautiously optimistic about this move. Obviously, KW had to do something to help the pen in '08 and I'm sure he paid out a lot more than he wanted but that '07 pen was a DISASTER. There is no way he could have gone into '08 without that 8th inning bridge pitcher to get to Jenks. Linebrink was one of the better FA relievers in a thin market and for better or worse, 4yrs $19 million is the going rate for solid middle relievers these days. (Remember when that could have gotten a decent starting pitcher? My, how times have changed!) Anyway, a hole on the team has been filled.

The only two things that concern me about this move is that Linebrink is unproven in the AL and he has also given up a lot of HRs the past couple years. Our ballpark YIELDS a lot of HRs in the warm weather too. However, if he posts a solid 3.00 E.R.A. and doesn't walk a lot of guys, I think it is a good move and his veteran status could help anchor the pen. With Jenks, Linebrink, Thornton, and Wasserman available to Guillen, I feel a bit better about the '08 bullpen. If MacDougal can also rebound into '06 form, it could end up being a very solid bullpen indeed.

That's a lot of if's. I like the move, but I'd like for Kenny to get 1 or 2 more relievers for the pen.

Foulke You
11-23-2007, 02:11 AM
That's a lot of if's. I like the move, but I'd like for Kenny to get 1 or 2 more relievers for the pen.
Absolutely. Definitely don't stop with 1 bullpen signing. I'm merely looking at it as the roster stands right now, with Linebrink in as the 8th inning man, Bukvich being gone, and Wasserman/Thornton now available for the 7th inning, it makes me a bit more confident in that group as a whole. Also, let me clarify that it would definitely be foolish of KW to think MacDougal will be a key contributor in '08. I was just pointing out that if he rebounds, he can be a big bonus however, KW should plan to build without him.

Save McCuddy's
11-23-2007, 08:29 AM
Ridiculous. This makes the Cub signings of Eyre and Howry look intelligent by comparison.

You promote set up men and middle guys from within. You don't go to the National League for a guy whose k rate is diminishing and expect him to miss bats in the AL.

At least this isn't my money and it shouldn't cost us any wins -- it'll just be a brutal reminder 2 or 3 years from now when we won't be able to dump his salary.

gr8mexico
11-23-2007, 08:46 AM
At least this isn't my money and it shouldn't cost us any wins -- it'll just be a brutal reminder 2 or 3 years from now when we won't be able to dump his salary.
Well the Mets just got rid of Mota contract and he's a cheater.
Everyone in here wanted the Sox to sign bullpen help and when they do you start crying about it. Everyone in here are a bunch of babies that cry about everything Kenny does. But next year will posting in here how Kenny did an amazing job.:angry: At least wait and see what happens first. It's only NOVEMBER!!!

jabrch
11-23-2007, 09:11 AM
You promote set up men and middle guys from within.

So you liked how it worked last year?

SoxxoS
11-23-2007, 09:36 AM
Like everyone else on the board, that fourth year looks bad to me. So does the fact that SD traded their setup guy in the middle of the pennant race. If he was pitching at all well they would have held onto him.

The fourth year? Who cares about 2011?

This is the biggest problem I have with the signing, not the money. That is a little scary. SD just let this guy go in the middle of a pennant race?

I am not saying its the same circumstances, but this is when the Red Sox just let David Riske go in 2006.

What did they get for Linebrink in the trade?

Sockinchisox
11-23-2007, 09:40 AM
The fourth year? Who cares about 2011?

This is the biggest problem I have with the signing, not the money. That is a little scary. SD just let this guy go in the middle of a pennant race?

I am not saying its the same circumstances, but this is when the Red Sox just let David Riske go in 2006.

What did they get for Linebrink in the trade?

Some interesting pitching prospects: Will Inman, Steve Garrison, and Joe Thatcher.

Inman is/was highly regarded and one of the better pitching prospects in the Brewers system.

russ99
11-23-2007, 09:48 AM
Heck yeah!

We finally got ourselves a RH setup man. This guy will be awesome for us. I've followed his career since he was back with the Astros.

I'm really surprised he signed with a team that he won't be closing for. I think this is a bigger move for the Sox than a CF, as far as our chances for contending in '08. You guys are out of your mind comparing him to MacDougal. He's been a heck of a pitcher for San Diego the last few years and is a huge upgrade over the bozos we had setting up for Jenks last season.

We still need 2 outfielders. Now on to bringing back Aaron (I guess)

gr8mexico
11-23-2007, 10:33 AM
The fourth year? Who cares about 2011?

This is the biggest problem I have with the signing, not the money. That is a little scary. SD just let this guy go in the middle of a pennant race?

I am not saying its the same circumstances, but this is when the Red Sox just let David Riske go in 2006.

What did they get for Linebrink in the trade?The Brewers traded right-hander Wil Inman, considered one of the top prospects in their system, as well as left-handers Steve Garrison and Joe Thatcher to the Padres on July 25 for Linebrink. Thatcher made 22 relief appearances for San Diego, going 2-2 with a 1.29 ERA.
Well I think I would of made the trade too. The Padres knew they wouldnt make it that far any ways

The Immigrant
11-23-2007, 08:36 PM
If Linebrink pitches like he did for Milwaukee down the stretch, most of us will hate this move. If he returns to his form from prior years (without the benefit of pitching in Petco Park, of course), he will be exactly what our bullpen needs. That's my wisdom for the day. :smile:

FedEx227
11-23-2007, 08:49 PM
If Linebrink pitches like he did for Milwaukee down the stretch, most of us will hate this move. If he returns to his form from prior years (without the benefit of pitching in Petco Park, of course), he will be exactly what our bullpen needs. That's my wisdom for the day. :smile:
I think we'll be alright

Three-Year Averages @ Petco Park

2.94 ERA, .243 BAA

Three-Year Averages Away

2.95 ERA, .227 BAA

So it doesn't look like Petco really helped him all that much which is a good thing, so we just need to hope he can get that stride back.

PalehosePlanet
11-23-2007, 10:38 PM
The fourth year? Who cares about 2011?

This is the biggest problem I have with the signing, not the money. That is a little scary. SD just let this guy go in the middle of a pennant race?

I am not saying its the same circumstances, but this is when the Red Sox just let David Riske go in 2006.

What did they get for Linebrink in the trade?

When the Padres traded him at the deadline there were alot of angry Padres players who wondered what the GM was doing. It didn't sit well with them and I don't blame them.

From the Padres standpoint, they were more worried about losing him via FA and not getting anything in return than making the playoffs. Anyway they received a good return, and thought that younger, and cheaper, RP's Cla Meredith and Heath Bell were ready to take over Linebrink's role.

gr8mexico
11-24-2007, 12:01 AM
If Linebrink pitches like he did for Milwaukee down the stretch, most of us will hate this move. If he returns to his form from prior years (without the benefit of pitching in Petco Park, of course), he will be exactly what our bullpen needs. That's my wisdom for the day. :smile:Do some research before you post.
Linebrink, 31, did not pitch well immediately after the deal, going 1-3 with a 5.40 ERA in 12 appearances in August. He rebounded in September with a 2.31 ERA in 13 outings, finishing with a 2-3 record and 3.55 ERA in 27 appearances for the Brewers

pierzynski07
11-24-2007, 01:16 AM
So you liked how it worked last year?
How many of them actually came through our system, and not through trades?

Tragg
11-24-2007, 01:24 PM
So you liked how it worked last year?
That's not what the sox did last year. They acquired 6 new middle relievers via trade or signing. The only one that would be a callup of an arm they thought was really first rate might be Massett. In August, Williams signed a 39 year old reliever, reluctant they are to use young players.

Not only did the Sox not use their good young pitchers in the pen, Guillen continued to pitch clowns like Meyers and Bukvich when the young guys were on his bench in September call-up time.

LInebrink looks like a grade above the usual middle relief suspects Williams has been trading talent to acquire. It will be disappointing if he doesn't pitch well.

ViPeRx007
11-24-2007, 01:27 PM
Seems like a lot of $$, but whatever. If it prevents those late inning heart attacks I'm all for it.

The Immigrant
11-24-2007, 02:56 PM
Do some research before you post.
Linebrink, 31, did not pitch well immediately after the deal, going 1-3 with a 5.40 ERA in 12 appearances in August. He rebounded in September with a 2.31 ERA in 13 outings, finishing with a 2-3 record and 3.55 ERA in 27 appearances for the Brewers

The Brewers started the month of August tied for first place in the NL Central. On August 30th they were 2.5 games behind the Cubs. Three of their losses during that period, including a key loss at Wrigley on 8/28, were the work of Scott Linebrink (and this doesn't include the games in which he merely failed to hold the lead). If one of our relievers lost three games in a single month after we gave up three prospects to get him, we would not be happy campers.

Hopefully he just needed some time to adjust to his new team and will be back to his SD form next year.

Fenway
11-24-2007, 03:01 PM
NYY not happy they were outbid

Linebrink-to-Chisox may cost Yanks (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/11/24/2007-11-24_scott_linebrinks_deal_with_white_sox_cou.html)

The Yankees had interest in free-agent reliever Scott Linebrink but lost out to the White Sox, who reportedly signed the righty to a 4-year, $19 million deal. But the Yankees might feel a sting from the loss more in their wallets than in their bullpen.

Paulwny
11-24-2007, 03:04 PM
NYY not happy they were outbid

Linebrink-to-Chisox may cost Yanks (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/11/24/2007-11-24_scott_linebrinks_deal_with_white_sox_cou.html)

The Yankees had interest in free-agent reliever Scott Linebrink but lost out to the White Sox, who reportedly signed the righty to a 4-year, $19 million deal. But the Yankees might feel a sting from the loss more in their wallets than in their bullpen.

Yep, it's kinda funny, the yanks feeling the sox over paid thus raising the $$$ amount for middle relievers. Screw' em

Jerome
11-24-2007, 03:08 PM
Yep, it's kinda funny, the yanks feeling the sox over paid thus raising the $$$ amount for middle relievers. Screw' em

yeah, not like the Yankees have ever overpaid for any free agents

Fenway
11-24-2007, 03:20 PM
yeah, not like the Yankees have ever overpaid for any free agents

Oh, my goodness gracious! Of all the dramatic things, of all the dramatic things I've ever seen on WSI saying the Yankees ever overpaid for anyone :tongue:

ode to veeck
11-24-2007, 03:45 PM
By Sox bullpen standards, he was so lights-out that he would've been classified as a black hole.

that's not saying anything at all

Save McCuddy's
11-25-2007, 08:25 PM
So you liked how it worked last year?

Other than Masset, who did we promote from within last year? And incidentally, I did like what Kenny did last year to prepare for the season. I can't completely blame him for Ozzie's obstinace in continuing to pitch MacDougal despite the fact that he had absolutely nothing. The bullpen was lights out for the first month to two months of the season before melting down. Sure, many of the high velocity guys that we put together did not perform well, but that isn't enough to condemn the process. Reclamation projects and hard throwers mixed with our own prospects was the key to our bull pen's success in 2005 and again in 2006.

Despite the fact that our bullpen performed awfully last year, I don't blame the season's failure on it. A bad bullpen year can make the difference between an 85 win team that falls short and a 95 win team that goes to playoffs, but it doesn't cause you to lose 90 games on its own.

So to all the crybabies that think its sac religious to criticize Kenny's moves, I reiterate that I don't like this signing. Linebrink is a journey man second tier set up man who will find the going even tougher in the AL then he has in the NL to this point. He is not better than Luis Vizcaino who we threw into the Vazquez deal. Take a look at the drop off in k's and whip that Vizcaino experienced in his two AL seasons. Expect more of the same from Linebrink as he makes the switch. I project 65 IP with 40's and a whip of 1.45. Not too exciting for the next 4 years in my opinion.

Not Kenny bashing (love the Cabrera deal) -- let's face it he wins some and he loses some.

Lukin13
11-25-2007, 10:04 PM
Other than Masset, who did we promote from within last year?
Dewon Day
Ryan Buckvich
Jack Egbert
Boone Logan
Carlos Vasquez
Lance Broadway
Ehren Wassermann

btrain929
11-25-2007, 10:12 PM
Dewon Day
Ryan Buckvich
Jack Egbert
Boone Logan
Carlos Vasquez
Lance Broadway
Ehren Wassermann

Not to be nit-picky, but Egbert was in AA all of last year, and was never promoted. But we definitely had more than just Masset promoted throughout the year, as you stated. I'm interested to see if KW is going to get another veteran arm for the bullpen, or give a shot to Adam Russell or the loser of the 5th spot in the rotation (Floyd/Broadway).

russ99
11-26-2007, 09:14 AM
Other than Masset, who did we promote from within last year? And incidentally, I did like what Kenny did last year to prepare for the season. I can't completely blame him for Ozzie's obstinace in continuing to pitch MacDougal despite the fact that he had absolutely nothing. The bullpen was lights out for the first month to two months of the season before melting down. Sure, many of the high velocity guys that we put together did not perform well, but that isn't enough to condemn the process. Reclamation projects and hard throwers mixed with our own prospects was the key to our bull pen's success in 2005 and again in 2006.

Despite the fact that our bullpen performed awfully last year, I don't blame the season's failure on it. A bad bullpen year can make the difference between an 85 win team that falls short and a 95 win team that goes to playoffs, but it doesn't cause you to lose 90 games on its own.

So to all the crybabies that think its sac religious to criticize Kenny's moves, I reiterate that I don't like this signing. Linebrink is a journey man second tier set up man who will find the going even tougher in the AL then he has in the NL to this point. He is not better than Luis Vizcaino who we threw into the Vazquez deal. Take a look at the drop off in k's and whip that Vizcaino experienced in his two AL seasons. Expect more of the same from Linebrink as he makes the switch. I project 65 IP with 40's and a whip of 1.45. Not too exciting for the next 4 years in my opinion.

Not Kenny bashing (love the Cabrera deal) -- let's face it he wins some and he loses some.

Sorry, but despite last year's lower numbers post-trade with the fading Brewers, IMO Scott Linebrink is twice the pitcher that Luis Vizcaino is.

I think he'll do great in the AL, where a lot of guys haven't faced him before.

I agree with your sentiments on bringing in guys from within, but unless they prove they can succeed at the major league level (like Jenks did in '05) there's no way those AA and AAA guys should be setting up or even pitching in the 7th. I maintained all last year the Sox pen really suffered due to the lack of a proven RH set-up guy, and I'm happy Kenny realized now the error of his ways last season and took care of the issue, despite overpaying for a reliever.

I think Kenny should pick up one more righthander to complement Thornton in the 7th, but wait until January when the price is much lower.

BTW: Has the signing been officially announced yet? Or are they waiting for a physical today?

skottyj242
11-26-2007, 09:22 AM
This guy was good in Petco, probably the best pitchers park in the NL. I don't know what to think.

Whoops, that's not what I meant to say. I meant to say he was good.

ilsox7
11-26-2007, 09:24 AM
This guy wasn't good in Petco, probably the best pitchers park in the NL. I don't know what to think.

Uh, he was mostly great at Petco.

oeo
11-26-2007, 09:27 AM
This guy wasn't good in Petco, probably the best pitchers park in the NL. I don't know what to think.

Actually, he was great in Petco...

bigsqwert
11-26-2007, 09:27 AM
Uh, he was mostly great at Petco.

Well UCF is nothing like Petco so I'd be surprised if he were anywhere near as good this year as he was back in his Padres days.

Save McCuddy's
11-26-2007, 10:26 AM
Dewon Day
Ryan Buckvich
Jack Egbert
Boone Logan
Carlos Vasquez
Lance Broadway
Ehren Wassermann

Point taken. Logan, Wasserman and Buckvich pitched in a meaningful number of games. The others did not.

rdwj
11-26-2007, 10:30 AM
Well, it isn't the most exciting signing, but the pen NEEDS work. Seems like a long contract, but that's only a concern if he sucks.

balke
11-26-2007, 10:34 AM
I don't see how its not a great signing. The pen needs an arm, the pen gets an arm. Good setup men are harder to find than closers IMO. Closer's want to close and won't go to a lot of teams because of that. Taking a chance on Linebrink at this point is about the best move the Sox can make. They can't convince Rivera or any other closer to setup Jenks, or Jenks to set them up.

The money and years could really suck, but at this point it's worth a shot. Kenny made the right move. Now Linebrink just has to get back to form.

/cue classic "Coop'll fix'em" talk. (As if Coop doesn't have enough pitchers to fix).

RowanDye
11-26-2007, 11:27 AM
Well UCF is nothing like Petco so I'd be surprised if he were anywhere near as good this year as he was back in his Padres days.

Take a look at his splits over the past three years, he has actually been just as good or slightly better AWAY than HOME. If you just look at the gopher balls it doesn't seem that bad either. He's allowed 25 HR's in 219 IP from '05-'07, not a great total; but twelve of the longballs were given up at Petco and thirteen elsewhere. Of course middle relievers are risky, but the White Sox '07 bullpen problems have forced KW to take this risk. I think it shows that KW is not cheap and does actually want to win now, admittedly a shocking notion to some.

Madscout
11-26-2007, 07:52 PM
We needed a vet for the pen, good signing. 7 years in the bigs isn't worth nothin'. Maybe he can play player coach and get some guys to un **** thier heads.

CWSpalehoseCWS
11-26-2007, 08:11 PM
Other than Masset, who did we promote from within last year? And incidentally, I did like what Kenny did last year to prepare for the season. I can't completely blame him for Ozzie's obstinace in continuing to pitch MacDougal despite the fact that he had absolutely nothing. The bullpen was lights out for the first month to two months of the season before melting down. Sure, many of the high velocity guys that we put together did not perform well, but that isn't enough to condemn the process. Reclamation projects and hard throwers mixed with our own prospects was the key to our bull pen's success in 2005 and again in 2006.

Despite the fact that our bullpen performed awfully last year, I don't blame the season's failure on it. A bad bullpen year can make the difference between an 85 win team that falls short and a 95 win team that goes to playoffs, but it doesn't cause you to lose 90 games on its own.

So to all the crybabies that think its sac religious to criticize Kenny's moves, I reiterate that I don't like this signing. Linebrink is a journey man second tier set up man who will find the going even tougher in the AL then he has in the NL to this point. He is not better than Luis Vizcaino who we threw into the Vazquez deal. Take a look at the drop off in k's and whip that Vizcaino experienced in his two AL seasons. Expect more of the same from Linebrink as he makes the switch. I project 65 IP with 40's and a whip of 1.45. Not too exciting for the next 4 years in my opinion.

Not Kenny bashing (love the Cabrera deal) -- let's face it he wins some and he loses some.

I understand what you're saying, but I think this is a good move. 4 years is a bit much, but who else is out there for Kenny to sign? Linebrink is one of the better FA RP's out there. We can't trade for everything we need. I definitly don't want the same group of guys in the pen going into next year.

btrain929
11-26-2007, 08:15 PM
I understand what you're saying, but I think this is a good move. 4 years is a bit much, but who else is out there for Kenny to sign? Linebrink is one of the better FA RP's out there. We can't trade for everything we need. I definitly don't want the same group of guys in the pen going into next year.

And I would bet that a good amount of teams would line up to give him 2 year deals, and some even for 3 years. If that 4th year is what did it, then I'm fine with that. He has a proven track record of being healthy and being very effective. Two thumbs up from me....

Rockabilly
11-26-2007, 08:57 PM
When is this signing going to be official, im sure he probably took his physical today

JermaineDye05
11-26-2007, 09:06 PM
When is this signing going to be official, im sure he probably took his physical today

I'm guessing either tomorrow or White Sox Wednesday.

Save McCuddy's
11-27-2007, 12:02 AM
Beside my philosophical differences with Kenny on this signing, I'm concerned about Scott's trend.

No doubt that he lit it up in 2004 and 2005. He then drops off a bit in 2006 and last year at 31 has basically his worst year. I'm not sure that I would expect a guy to rebound and pitch better at his age -- especially not over the aforementioned 4 year period.

However, it won't matter at all to me if he's able to give us some stability this year and Thome stays healthy and Owens hits .270 with 60 SB and Danks wins 12 and Gonzalez starts 15 games with a 9.0 k rate to carriy us into the playoffs.

ksimpson14
11-27-2007, 03:59 AM
I don't like the years and end of year trends, but the bullpen needs help, why not chief!

Lillian
11-27-2007, 05:08 AM
His Game Log for last year suggests that he did just fine, after leaving the pitcher friendly Petco Park. In 27 appearances with the Brewers, he gave up 2 earned runs three times, and 1 ER four times. That's it, no other runs given up in any of the other 20 appearances. Wouldn't that have looked awfully good for the Sox last year?

Frater Perdurabo
11-27-2007, 06:04 AM
His Game Log for last year suggests that he did just fine, after leaving the pitcher friendly Petco Park. In 27 appearances with the Brewers, he gave up 2 earned runs three times, and 1 ER four times. That's it, no other runs given up in any of the other 20 appearances. Wouldn't that have looked awfully good for the Sox last year?

Without looking any deeper, yes, that probably would have looked great out of the Sox bullpen.

That's why ERA can be deceptive for middle relievers. (Did he allow any inherited runners to score?)

Lillian
11-27-2007, 06:24 AM
Without looking any deeper, yes, that probably would have looked great out of the Sox bullpen.

That's why ERA can be deceptive for middle relievers. (Did he allow any inherited runners to score?)

Your point is well taken. Where can one find the Inherited Runners Stats?

santo=dorf
11-27-2007, 07:37 AM
Your point is well taken. Where can one find the Inherited Runners Stats?
Your stats only cover two months of stats, so I'm not completely impressed with him giving up runs in 26% of his appearance for the money he is making.

I am impressed with this however,
Inherited runners: 12 (season total of 16)
Inherited runners allowed to score: 3 (season total of 4)