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Flight #24
11-21-2007, 01:25 PM
Per ESPN, the Reds are "actively shopping" Ryan Freel. He was hurt last year, but the prior 3 showed that he could be a strong leadoff guy with good avg (.270s), obp(.363-.375), speed (~36SB, 10CS). He can also play IF and OF slots, providing flexibility in the event other moves are/can be made.

This could be a situation where they can flip one of the lesser SP prospects (Sisco, etc) for him or maybe even Uribe. The Reds need pitching. Dusty Baker loves mediocre veteran IFs. And there's the health issue.

I know the last thing we need is another leadoff guy who can't stay on the field, but this guy's a step up OBP-wise from Pods or Owens, and I'm not sure what other leadoff options are available. Plus he'll come a lot cheaper in trade. I'd say Owens = 4th OF and Freel as LF/primary leadoff would work fine.

rowand33
11-21-2007, 01:29 PM
just posted this in the Pods thread. I'll delete that and link to here:

I'd love to see Freel in LF for the White Sox, and don't think it's an unreasonable proposition seeing as how the Reds have Dunn Griffey and Hamilton.

He's a good fielder that can steal bases and play almost every position on the field.

And his career line leading off is .271/.364/.377.

My concern would be that he's only played more than 140 games once (143 in 2004) and he's coming off an injury, but I suppose that's why we keep owens on as the 4th OF, for insurance.

It would depend on what we had to give up. We might be better off signing Stewart and giving up nothing.

thomas35forever
11-21-2007, 01:47 PM
Freel would be more affordable than Crawford if we sign Hunter. It would put to rest any consideration I have of Cabrera leading off. Plus, the guy can play anywhere, so if healthy, he could fill in for somebody with the day off on days he's not playing left.

Gammons Peter
11-21-2007, 01:49 PM
Freel is a bit drinky

russ99
11-21-2007, 01:51 PM
Ryan Freel is a heck of a player and quite a gamer and one of the best "grinders". He reminds me a lot of Biggio in his prime, but with less power.

I'm pretty surprised the Reds would let him go so easily, as he can start literally anywhere, so I have to wonder if they have any Pods-like injury concerns.

If he's healthy and Kenny can get him to be our LF/lead-off guy I'd be very impressed.

Flight #24
11-21-2007, 01:54 PM
Freel is a bit drinkySource?

That could be an issue, but basd on his performance, if he's on the field he seems to be exactly what the Sox need.

Gammons Peter
11-21-2007, 01:57 PM
Source?

That could be an issue, but basd on his performance, if he's on the field he seems to be exactly what the Sox need.


check the police blotter, multiple DUI

broker3d
11-21-2007, 01:58 PM
I like the Freel idea. To throw another name out there as a leadoff guy, Brian Roberts. Baltimore appears to be in a youth movement. A package of Richar and a pitching prospect should get it done. Roberts had 50 steals last year. Add Roberts, sign Hunter and I would be happy to have a LF platoon of Owens/Ozuna. Lineup:

Roberts
Cabrera
Hunter (don't want to see Thome or Pauly at the #3)
Thome
Pauly
Dye
Fields/Crede
AJ
Owens/Ozuna

We've now answered our need for speed and enhanced our overall defense, exluding Pablo.

To take the Brian Roberts/Baltimore Orioles thing one step further. Add Danks and Fields in the package and go over Erik Bedard. Bedard has come up in a few rumors this offseason. To summarize: Fields, Richar, Danks and one other pitching prospect (Egbert, Broadway or Gio) for Bedard and Roberts. I'm not sure if that is quite enough to get it done but I think it is getting close.

Pitching Roster:

Bedard
Vazquez
Buehrle
Contreras
Gio/Broadway/Egbert

Now Kenny just has to work on the pen.

There's my 2 pennies, now unleash.

oeo
11-21-2007, 01:59 PM
Source?

That could be an issue, but basd on his performance, if he's on the field he seems to be exactly what the Sox need.

He's been arrested a couple of times on drinking-related charges.

oeo
11-21-2007, 02:02 PM
I like the Freel idea. To throw another name out there as a leadoff guy, Brian Roberts. Baltimore appears to be in a youth movement. A package of Richar and a pitching prospect should get it done. Roberts had 50 steals last year. Add Roberts, sign Hunter and I would be happy to have a LF platoon of Owens/Ozuna. Lineup:

Roberts
Cabrera
Hunter (don't want to see Thome or Pauly at the #3)
Thome
Pauly
Dye
Fields/Crede
AJ
Owens/Ozuna

We've now answered our need for speed and enhanced our overall defense, exluding Pablo.

To take the Brian Roberts/Baltimore Orioles thing one step further. Add Danks and Fields in the package and go over Erik Bedard. Bedard has come up in a few rumors this offseason. To summarize: Fields, Richar, Danks and one other pitching prospect (Egbert, Broadway or Gio) for Bedard and Roberts. I'm not sure if that is quite enough to get it done but I think it is getting close.

Pitching Roster:

Bedard
Vazquez
Buehrle
Contreras
Gio/Broadway/Egbert

Now Kenny just has to work on the pen.

There's my 2 pennies, now unleash.

In a dream world, this would be great, but it's not going to happen.

AWhiteSoxinNJ
11-21-2007, 02:06 PM
I'd take Freel for 2B and leadoff.

MrRoboto83
11-21-2007, 02:12 PM
I predict that Pablo will be leading off 35%-37% of the time.

broker3d
11-21-2007, 02:19 PM
In a dream world, this would be great, but it's not going to happen.

What makes it a dream (an unrealistic dream)? Baltimore is on a youth movement, which would facilitate a move of Roberts and Bedards name has come up several times recently in trade speculation.

Hendu
11-21-2007, 02:37 PM
I'd love to take a shot on Freel, as long as we don't have to give up too much.

Huisj
11-21-2007, 03:33 PM
I predict that Pablo will be leading off 35%-37% of the time.

I can live with 35%, but 37% is really pushing it. Those extra two games he would lead off over the course of the season to make it 37% may put the Sox at a huge disadvantage.

AzureJazzMan
11-21-2007, 05:21 PM
Very nice suggestion...Though, if it's possible, I would take Norris Hopper (http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/stats/individual_stats_player.jsp?c_id=cin&playerID=440361) off their hands before Ryan Freel (http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/stats/individual_stats_player.jsp?c_id=cin&playerID=150472). Hopper seems to have better discipline at the plate, and is healthier.

Perhaps we could throw Heath Phillips and Matt Thornton at them and see if they'd bite.

oeo
11-21-2007, 07:17 PM
What makes it a dream (an unrealistic dream)? Baltimore is on a youth movement, which would facilitate a move of Roberts and Bedards name has come up several times recently in trade speculation.

Uhm, just that Bedard is one of the best pitchers in the game. And, oh, that Brian Roberts guy isn't bad, either. It's going to take more than you suggested to get either one.

PalehosePlanet
11-21-2007, 09:03 PM
Very nice suggestion...Though, if it's possible, I would take Norris Hopper (http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/stats/individual_stats_player.jsp?c_id=cin&playerID=440361) off their hands before Ryan Freel (http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/stats/individual_stats_player.jsp?c_id=cin&playerID=150472). Hopper seems to have better discipline at the plate, and is healthier.

Perhaps we could throw Heath Phillips and Matt Thornton at them and see if they'd bite.

I like Freel and Hopper and would be happy with either one, not to mention that Freel is actually a good CF as well.

As far as trading Thornton, not sure that's a good idea. I think he'll rebound strong next year. If we did trade him then we would have to go after Mahay, and it's looking like he'll command 3/12 or so. Not sure if that's a smart route, KW is having trouble finding bullpen trade partners to begin with.

the1tab
11-21-2007, 09:14 PM
I seem to remember reading that the gung-ho play till you die attitude was a reason teams like the Sox preferred not to sign Aaron Rowand.

Who has missed more games because of injury the last 3 years - Freel or Rowand? Freel's a 5'5 bowling ball looking for concrete... I love his style but doubt we would get 140 games out of him. And if he isn't going to give us a full season in left, aren't we right back where we started w/ Pods? a runner who misses Aug 15-April 1?

PalehosePlanet
11-21-2007, 10:47 PM
I seem to remember reading that the gung-ho play till you die attitude was a reason teams like the Sox preferred not to sign Aaron Rowand.

Who has missed more games because of injury the last 3 years - Freel or Rowand? Freel's a 5'5 bowling ball looking for concrete... I love his style but doubt we would get 140 games out of him. And if he isn't going to give us a full season in left, aren't we right back where we started w/ Pods? a runner who misses Aug 15-April 1?

At least he doesn't do a goofy little skip and hop before the ball goes off the edge of his mitt ala Pods.

the1tab
11-21-2007, 10:59 PM
At least he doesn't do a goofy little skip and hop before the ball goes off the edge of his mitt ala Pods.

Well played. Hard nosed vs Bambi... no question.

HebrewHammer
11-21-2007, 11:18 PM
I predict that Pablo will be leading off 35%-37% of the time.

IF this happens, it's another 90 loss season.

btrain929
11-22-2007, 12:02 PM
Now that the Angels signed Hunter, their OF is Gary Matthews-Hunter-Vlad. No room for Reggie Willits. We need to go after this guy. I know about him offensively, but how is his defense? Can he cover ground? How's his arm?

PorkChopExpress
11-22-2007, 12:34 PM
Now that the Angels signed Hunter, their OF is Gary Matthews-Hunter-Vlad. No room for Reggie Willits. We need to go after this guy. I know about him offensively, but how is his defense? Can he cover ground? How's his arm?

I would love to get this kid, but I think they are positioning themselves to unload this guy, along with an Ervin Santana and a prospect for Miguel Cabrera.

btrain929
11-22-2007, 12:36 PM
I would love to get this kid, but I think they are positioning themselves to unload this guy, along with an Ervin Santana and a prospect for Miguel Cabrera.

And it's usually uncharacteristic that a team does a 2nd trade together after they already pulled one off in that same offseason. Here's to changing that pattern.....

oeo
11-22-2007, 12:39 PM
I would love to get this kid, but I think they are positioning themselves to unload this guy, along with an Ervin Santana and a prospect for Miguel Cabrera.

Ervin Santana has zero trade value...

The Marlins have already mentioned that they want Howie Kendrick for any deal, anyway.

PorkChopExpress
11-22-2007, 01:16 PM
Ervin Santana has zero trade value...

The Marlins have already mentioned that they want Howie Kendrick for any deal, anyway.

I don't think he has zero trade value or we could swap Crede for him and that's just not going to happen. Either way, I still think they are getting Cabrera soon. Willits, Kendrick and Sanatana for Cabrera.

Mind you I hope they don't because that means someone else got Cabrera (White Sox) and it means they may still be looking for a 3B (Crede becomes part of a deal) and Willits is possibly available again.

Tragg
11-22-2007, 06:09 PM
If they need a 3B, then it seems like a trade for Crede would be a natural - one team's risk for another's.

btrain929
11-25-2007, 04:09 PM
Freel or Hopper for Mike Macdougal would work for me. If he can throw strikes, he could be pretty solid in the NL. Or maybe one of our mid-level prospect starters (Sisco, Masset?). They need pitching help in the bullpen and in the rotation. We match up with them pretty well, especially since there's absolutely no room for these guys in their OF. Make it happen....

russ99
11-26-2007, 09:30 AM
Ervin Santana has zero trade value...

The Marlins have already mentioned that they want Howie Kendrick for any deal, anyway.

I think it would take Willts (or Figgins), Kendrick and Adenhart. Not sure if the Angels would do that deal, but considering the players they've stockpiled, I'd deal that for a proven slugger in Cabrera, provided they can re-sign him.

russ99
11-26-2007, 09:32 AM
Freel or Hopper for Mike Macdougal would work for me. If he can throw strikes, he could be pretty solid in the NL. Or maybe one of our mid-level prospect starters (Sisco, Masset?). They need pitching help in the bullpen and in the rotation. We match up with them pretty well, especially since there's absolutely no room for these guys in their OF. Make it happen....

We'd be lucky getting a bag of balls for MacDougal. Everyone knows of his injury and control problems last season, so it's doubtful the Sox could deal him for a good player like Freel.

I also doubt Hopper is on the market.

btrain929
11-26-2007, 10:03 AM
We'd be lucky getting a bag of balls for MacDougal. Everyone knows of his injury and control problems last season, so it's doubtful the Sox could deal him for a good player like Freel.

I also doubt Hopper is on the market.

The only reason it might work is because Freel isn't the definition of health, either. Plus he's somewhat up there in age (31-32) and hasn't played more than 120 games in a while. All I know is we either need a LF leadoff hitter or a bonafide CF real soon before this picture can start making any sense.

russ99
11-26-2007, 12:23 PM
The only reason it might work is because Freel isn't the definition of health, either. Plus he's somewhat up there in age (31-32) and hasn't played more than 120 games in a while. All I know is we either need a LF leadoff hitter or a bonafide CF real soon before this picture can start making any sense.

Patience... I expect Kenny to come back from the meetings with one of each. Not sure which ones, though.

Kenny knows that Owens is not the leadoff hitter we need. However, if he can go out and get a leadoff LF or CF, Owens may end up manning one of the positions and hit #9, at least on a part time basis, or until the trade market gets more reasonable closer to Spring Training.

AZChiSoxFan
11-26-2007, 03:42 PM
I predict that Pablo will be leading off 35%-37% of the time.

You are way off base. It will actually be 36%-38% of the time. :redneck

btrain929
11-26-2007, 04:40 PM
Patience... I expect Kenny to come back from the meetings with one of each. Not sure which ones, though.

Kenny knows that Owens is not the leadoff hitter we need. However, if he can go out and get a leadoff LF or CF, Owens may end up manning one of the positions and hit #9, at least on a part time basis, or until the trade market gets more reasonable closer to Spring Training.

I'm not sure about that. In his newspaper interviews after Hunter signed with the Angels, when KW was talking about Plan 1a/b/c etc, someone asked him if he was looking for 1 or 2 outfielders, and he said "if it's the right OF, then only one." The way I interpret that is that if he gets a marquee CF (Andruw Jones), he can live with Owens in LF leading off. If he plays LF and bats 9th, then leadoff has to come from CF or 2B, and I don't see that possible, mainly cuz I can't see an OF of Owens, another speedy non-power guy, and Dye. Unless we somehow sign Eckstein and he bats leadoff at 2b, then Richar is the new Cintron UTIL middle infielder, then the leadoff hitter has to come from LF. Now if he gets 2 OF'ers, that might mean a combination of Willits and Cameron, or Freel and Rowand. Bottom line, theres a lot of different combinations and options and I can't wait to see the end results in a few months. In my dream world, it'd be Willits in LF and Andruw Jones in CF, but I have a feeling it'll be Freel in LF and a Cameron/Coco in CF (booooooooooo)

BadBobbyJenks
11-26-2007, 06:53 PM
Ervin Santana has zero trade value...

The Marlins have already mentioned that they want Howie Kendrick for any deal, anyway.


Except that he is exactly the type of young arm the marlins love. ZERO value is a bit extreme he is still young.

russ99
11-27-2007, 10:34 AM
I'm not sure about that. In his newspaper interviews after Hunter signed with the Angels, when KW was talking about Plan 1a/b/c etc, someone asked him if he was looking for 1 or 2 outfielders, and he said "if it's the right OF, then only one." The way I interpret that is that if he gets a marquee CF (Andruw Jones), he can live with Owens in LF leading off. If he plays LF and bats 9th, then leadoff has to come from CF or 2B, and I don't see that possible, mainly cuz I can't see an OF of Owens, another speedy non-power guy, and Dye. Unless we somehow sign Eckstein and he bats leadoff at 2b, then Richar is the new Cintron UTIL middle infielder, then the leadoff hitter has to come from LF. Now if he gets 2 OF'ers, that might mean a combination of Willits and Cameron, or Freel and Rowand. Bottom line, theres a lot of different combinations and options and I can't wait to see the end results in a few months. In my dream world, it'd be Willits in LF and Andruw Jones in CF, but I have a feeling it'll be Freel in LF and a Cameron/Coco in CF (booooooooooo)

Maybe I'm reading Kenny wrong, but to me his comment meant we'd get a leadoff hitter for either LF or CF (Crawford, please! :D:) and Owens would man the other field and bat 9th, which is where I think Owens belongs if he makes the everyday lineup. He didn't look to me that he's capable of being a solid high OBP leadoff hitter after last season's extensive tryout despite his good SB numbers.

Besides, speed at the bottom of the order would be good for the Sox and it would be a pressure-free place for Owens to develop as a hitter. If he bats leadoff and falters the press will eat him (and Kenny) alive.

Also, I'm glad the things have quieted down around the Sox, as Kenny does his best work under the radar.

Gammons Peter
11-27-2007, 10:58 AM
1 Owens cf
2 Cabrera ss
3 Crawford lf
4 Thome dh
5 Konerko 1b
6 Dye rf
7 AJ c
8 3b
9 Richar 2b


thats some serious speed at the top and bottom


//those who think Crawford leads off and plays center...
you're wrong

drewcifer
11-27-2007, 11:18 AM
1 Owens cf
2 Cabrera ss
3 Crawford lf
4 Thome dh
5 Konerko 1b
6 Dye rf
7 AJ c
8 3b
9 Richar 2b


thats some serious speed at the top and bottom


//those who think Crawford leads off and plays center...
you're wrong

Thome is better in the 3 hole. Negates the shift more effectively (as Ozzie seems to know also).

Tragg
11-27-2007, 11:42 AM
//those who think Crawford leads off and plays center...
you're wrong
Compared to Owens, I doubt they're wrong.

If we could get Crawford, it would be a shame to have such an anchor at leadoff and in center.

champagne030
11-27-2007, 11:50 AM
1 Owens cf
2 Cabrera ss
3 Crawford lf
4 Thome dh
5 Konerko 1b
6 Dye rf
7 AJ c
8 3b
9 Richar 2b


thats some serious speed at the top and bottom


//those who think Crawford leads off and plays center...
you're wrong

Compared to Owens, I doubt they're wrong.

If we could get Crawford, it would be a shame to have such an anchor at leadoff and in center.

Exactly. Those who think Owens leads off and plays center...you're wrong.

Gammons Peter
11-27-2007, 11:53 AM
Crawford has played 739 games in left and 50 in center. The centerfielder Baldelli is always hurt and they still don't put Crawford there. He is an average left fielder, he is a terrible center fielder

russ99
11-27-2007, 01:11 PM
1 Owens cf
2 Cabrera ss
3 Crawford lf
4 Thome dh
5 Konerko 1b
6 Dye rf
7 AJ c
8 3b
9 Richar 2b


thats some serious speed at the top and bottom


//those who think Crawford leads off and plays center...
you're wrong

I agree with you there, but if Crawford is acquired and Owens is our CF, You would probably see:

1. Cabrera - SS
2. Crawford - LF
3. Thome- DH
4. Dye - RF
5. Konerko - 1B
6. A.J. -C
7. Fields - 3B
8. Richar - 2B
9. Owens - CF

Gammons Peter
11-27-2007, 01:20 PM
I agree with you there, but if Crawford is acquired and Owens is our CF, You would probably see:

1. Cabrera - SS
2. Crawford - LF
3. Thome- DH
4. Dye - RF
5. Konerko - 1B
6. A.J. -C
7. Fields - 3B
8. Richar - 2B
9. Owens - CF


well that works for me, its the same 4 speed guys in the same order. 8 thru 2 as opposed to 9 thru 3

PorkChopExpress
11-27-2007, 01:22 PM
I agree with you there, but if Crawford is acquired and Owens is our CF, You would probably see:

1. Cabrera - SS
2. Crawford - LF
3. Thome- DH
4. Dye - RF
5. Konerko - 1B
6. A.J. -C
7. Fields - 3B
8. Richar - 2B
9. Owens - CF

Personally, if we get Crawford, I think we go with the l-r-l-r-l-r-l-r-l lineup since Ozzie loves it so much:

Owens
Cabrera
Thome
Konerko
Crawford
Dye
Pierzynski
Fields/Crede
Richar.

The problem will be that Crawford's speed will be limited with Konerko on base in front of him at times, but he also injects speed into the middle of the lineup and breaks up the slow 3-4-5-6 we had last year. He will also drive in a lot more rbi's in the 5-hole I believe. But what do I know?

drewcifer
11-27-2007, 01:28 PM
Personally, if we get Crawford, I think we go with the l-r-l-r-l-r-l-r-l lineup since Ozzie loves it so much:

Owens
Cabrera
Thome
Konerko
Crawford
Dye
Pierzynski
Fields/Crede
Richar.

The problem will be that Crawford's speed will be limited with Konerko on base in front of him at times, but he also injects speed into the middle of the lineup and breaks up the slow 3-4-5-6 we had last year. He will also drive in a lot more rbi's in the 5-hole I believe. But what do I know?

I had advocated a pipedream of gaining Crawford and putting him in the 6 hole a month ago. No point putting him behind Paulie or Dye. Put him behind them all or in front. Mixing him in b/w is a waste of speed. He either bats 1-2 or 6-7+. Anywhere else is a waste of his speed benefit.

The middle is slow and station to station; it is what it is.

gregory18n
11-27-2007, 03:51 PM
Crawford should lead-off for us!

rowand33
11-27-2007, 08:19 PM
I'm not saying Crawford is a leadoff man, or a center fielder...

but he is on the white sox. At least to start the season.

I don't see how anyone can expect Owens to leadoff given last year.

Cabrera... maybe. though he has no history of success at that spot in the order.

I also don't see how the white sox can field a team where both richar and owens start and hope to contend. One of the two, sure. Both or them plus the possibility of two youngsters in the rotation does not equal a playoff contender. Even with Crawford.

btrain929
11-27-2007, 08:23 PM
I'm not saying Crawford is a leadoff man, or a center fielder...

but he is on the white sox. At least to start the season.

I don't see how anyone can expect Owens to leadoff given last year.

Cabrera... maybe. though he has no history of success at that spot in the order.

I also don't see how the white sox can field a team where both richar and owens start and hope to contend. One of the two, sure. Both or them plus the possibility of two youngsters in the rotation does not equal a playoff contender. Even with Crawford.

But a lineup with Shannon Stewart leading off does??? :rolleyes:

rowand33
11-28-2007, 11:02 AM
But a lineup with Shannon Stewart leading off does??? :rolleyes:

If Owens develops into the player that Stewart is right now, I'd be happy as a white sox fan.

If Owens has the career Stewart has had, we'd all be amazed.

If we had Stewart last year instead of Erstad we'd have been a better ball club.