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Nellie_Fox
11-19-2007, 04:11 PM
Resume the rant.:tongue:

Madvora
11-19-2007, 04:13 PM
One step forward, one step back.
This would make a lot more sense if we already had someone lined up to take Garland's place.

thomas35forever
11-19-2007, 04:14 PM
We know what Pods can do when healthy, but I am tired of waiting for him to stay healthy year 'round, Owens isn't the leadoff hitter of a contending team. We need to get someone else, the question is, who??
That's why I thought Cabrera should be our leadoff guy. I'm assuming Pods won't be with us next year and there's no way Owens should be starting for us on Opening Day. If it had to be one of them though, it would probably be Owens because he is most likely Kenny's last resort if we can't get Hunter, Rowand, or anyone else.

MCHSoxFan
11-19-2007, 04:15 PM
Resume the rant.:tongue:

Just got home from school. Why was the first thread closed? A verbal fight? Just wondering.

WhiteSox5187
11-19-2007, 04:16 PM
In response to what Coop said apparently about both Mark and Jose needing fifteen wins, I don't think we can count on Jose getting fifteen wins. It would be great if he does, but if that's Plan A going into the season, the rotation is in trouble.

thomas35forever
11-19-2007, 04:16 PM
Just got home from school. Why was the first thread closed? A verbal fight? Just wondering.
Any thread at or approaching 500 replies will almost always get closed.

WhiteSox5187
11-19-2007, 04:16 PM
Just got home from school. Why was the first thread closed? A verbal fight? Just wondering.
Just got too big I think.

thomas35forever
11-19-2007, 04:18 PM
In response to what Coop said apparently about both Mark and Jose needing fifteen wins, I don't think we can count on Jose getting fifteen wins. It would be great if he does, but if that's Plan A going into the season, the rotation is in trouble.
While I was listening to Coop on B&B, they were talking about Jose. Is there any way that Jose could improve now that he has Cabrera behind him?

Madvora
11-19-2007, 04:20 PM
While I was listening to Coop on B&B, they were talking about Jose. Is there any way that Jose could improve now that he has Cabrera behind him?
Are you talking about defense?
There isn't much of a difference between Cabrera and Uribe out there and Contreras' failures definitely weren't Uribe's fault.

MCHSoxFan
11-19-2007, 04:20 PM
Any thread at or approaching 500 replies will almost always get closed.

Thank you.

mjmcend
11-19-2007, 04:21 PM
That's why I thought Cabrera should be our leadoff guy. I'm assuming Pods won't be with us next year and there's no way Owens should be starting for us on Opening Day. If it had to be one of them though, it would probably be Owens because he is most likely Kenny's last resort if we can't get Hunter, Rowand, or anyone else.

You want a sub .340 OBP guy as your lead-off hitter?

Frater Perdurabo
11-19-2007, 04:22 PM
I deserve a cookie for reading all 500+ posts. Mods deserve trophies. :D:

Anyway, I'm withholding judgment until Spring Training ends. But my gut reaction is that this is a fair, even trade. If KW can sign Cabrera to an extension, then this becomes a great trade.

Now for a second trade with LAA: PK for Figgins and Shields. Move Fields to 1B, keep Crede and keep Uribe as the super-sub. Sign Hunter. Invest the savings into pitchers who can both start and relieve.

Lineup becomes Figgins, OC, Thome, JD, Hunter, AJ, Crede, Fields, Richar. Decent speed at 1, 2, 5, 8 and 9. Great defense up the middle and 3B. Good power at 3, 4, 5, 7, and 8. What's not to like?
:)

Corlose 15
11-19-2007, 04:24 PM
Ok, my point was that citing the fact that Danks wore down as the season went on doesn't tell me much of anything about how Floyd is going to pitch or what Broadway, Gonzalez, and Egbert are going to do.

Also, we don't have to be set right now, its Nov 19th. Kenny isn't done, he's going to get either Rowand or Hunter and Kenny has some bargaining chips with Uribe, Crede, Fields, etc.

Let's sit back and let some things unfold before we go ape****. I agree with others that this is a lot like 2005 and the moves are going to build on top of each other.

Kenny even said in his conference call something to the effect of in the next couple weeks as other moves are made people are going to go "oh, I see what you're doing now".

Madvora
11-19-2007, 04:25 PM
Invest the savings into pitchers who can both start and relieve.
What is this all about? Where do you find a team that does this?

October26
11-19-2007, 04:29 PM
Ok, my point was that citing the fact that Danks wore down as the season went on doesn't tell me much of anything about how Floyd is going to pitch or what Broadway, Gonzalez, and Egbert are going to do.

Also, we don't have to be set right now, its Nov 19th. Kenny isn't done, he's going to get either Rowand or Hunter and Kenny has some bargaining chips with Uribe, Crede, Fields, etc.

Let's sit back and let some things unfold before we go ape****. I agree with others that this is a lot like 2005 and the moves are going to build on top of each other.

Kenny even said in his conference call something to the effect of in the next couple weeks as other moves are made people are going to go "oh, I see what you're doing now".

Thank you for being the voice of reason. I'm just hearing about the trade details on WSI (I was at work today) and I did overreact at first. But you have reminded me that Kenny is just getting started. My gut feeling is that Kenny did not get enough for Garland, but what is done is done. I hope to be pleasantly surprised by what Kenny has up his sleeve. Patience is a virtue and I am trying to be patient right now ...

Nellie_Fox
11-19-2007, 04:30 PM
Any thread at or approaching 500 replies will almost always get closed.

Just got too big I think.Yep. They become bandwidth hogs.

Noneck
11-19-2007, 04:30 PM
Uribe as the super-sub. Sign Hunter. Invest the savings into pitchers who can both start and relieve.





Ok I'll bite. Cabrera is a 150+ game SS, At where does Uribe become this super-sub? "Invest savings into pitchers who can both start and relieve."
Who? FA's? If so who?

Madvora
11-19-2007, 04:34 PM
Another thing I just thought of... Hasn't KW said over the last couple of years that he won't trade pitching without getting pitching in return?

Frater Perdurabo
11-19-2007, 04:39 PM
What is this all about? Where do you find a team that does this?

I mean find guys like Dustin Hermanson in 2005. He had experience starting and relieving before coming to the Sox. I'm talking about versatile pitchers who can challenge the youngsters for the #5 spot and/or fill the middle relief corps.

Frater Perdurabo
11-19-2007, 04:40 PM
Ok I'll bite. Cabrera is a 150+ game SS, At where does Uribe become this super-sub? "Invest savings into pitchers who can both start and relieve."
Who? FA's? If so who?

That's why KW's paid the big bucks to be the GM. :tongue:

UserNameBlank
11-19-2007, 04:40 PM
Now for a second trade with LAA: PK for Figgins and Shields. Move Fields to 1B, keep Crede and keep Uribe as the super-sub. Sign Hunter. Invest the savings into pitchers who can both start and relieve.

I'd only do that deal if the Sox threw in Buehrle and got back Reggie Willits. That would be awesome trade. Actually, we should probably throw in Jenks too so it won't be so lopsided in our favor.

Foulke You
11-19-2007, 04:41 PM
Another thing I just thought of... Hasn't KW said over the last couple of years that he won't trade pitching without getting pitching in return?
Which leads one to believe that KW probably has another iron in the fire and isn't going to announce any potential deals to the press at this time. Patience grasshopper. This is probably the first of several moves for KW as he indicated in his press conference.

ShoelessJoeS
11-19-2007, 04:42 PM
Another thing I just thought of... Hasn't KW said over the last couple of years that he won't trade pitching without getting pitching in return?Yes, he has. So maybe this is just a precursor to another deal???

Noneck
11-19-2007, 04:43 PM
That's why KW's paid the big bucks to be the GM. :tongue:


Yes he does but you are hoping he can make water into wine.

russ99
11-19-2007, 04:48 PM
Yes, he has. So maybe this is just a precursor to another deal???

My feeling on that is the 3B market is really starting to solidify. A-Rod and Lowell will be re-signed by the end of the week, leaving Cabrera (El Gordo, not OC), Crede and maybe Rolen available on the market.

So by the time the Winter Meetings roll around, other GMs are going to freak that they can't get a decent 3B. I expect the Angels with their newfound horde of pitching and good prospects to land Cabrera, leaving the Dodgers and other teams needing a quality 3B.

That's when Kenny will strike. Despite Crede's back concerns and upcoming FA, he's had great seasons in 05 and 06 and someone will overpay. Throw in a kid pitcher and Anderson or Sweeney, and the Sox could grab a good #3 starter.

Sooo... Who can we steal from the Dodgers? :D:

Frater Perdurabo
11-19-2007, 04:51 PM
Yes he does but you are hoping he can make water into wine.

I don't have blind faith in him, but he did do damn near "water to wine' between 2004 and 2005. Technically, you have to say the true "miracle" (to extended the overused metaphor to the breaking point) was during the 2004 season, when he assembled 2/5ths of the 2005 rotation by acquiring Garcia and Contreras. Those two moves, plus getting El Duque, pushed Garland to the back of the rotation and it was the rotation that carried the team throughout the season and right into the playoffs.

Those who argue that the bullpen was the key to 2005 are only partially correct; the fact that the starters pitched so well and so deep into games is what kept the relievers from getting used too much, which in turn made them more effective.

The bottom line is that KW has earned my trust. If 2008 goes down the crapper, then I may have to re-evaluate my trust.

MisterB
11-19-2007, 04:52 PM
Owens isn't the leadoff hitter of a contending team.

Just for reference (all stats while batting #1):

Player A: .224/.286/.315, 22 sb, 45 runs in 352 ab
Player B: .268/.325/.313, 32 sb, 44 runs in 351 ab

Player B is Jerry Owens

Player A is Julio Lugo, primary leadoff man for the 2007 World Champion Boston Red Sox.

:dunno:

UserNameBlank
11-19-2007, 04:54 PM
Yes he does but you are hoping he can make water into wine.
He can't exactly do that, but he can hide in your bushes, then enter your house, kill you in your sleep, destroy any and all evidence, and beat Tekken all before the smoke bomb goes out.

rowand33
11-19-2007, 04:54 PM
from yahoo's expert blog:

"Orlando Cabrera, for me, is one of the best shortstops in baseball and Garland is a No. 3 starter," one insider said. "If you don't have something next, then I don't think it's a really good trade (for the Angels)."

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/mlb_experts/post/Angels-White-Sox-swap-big-names;_ylt=ApqZHoxxc8svrgYyI2qOWEaFCLcF?urn=mlb,54 272

Looks like most people think we got the better end of the deal.

spiffie
11-19-2007, 04:56 PM
Just for reference (all stats while batting #1):

Player A: .224/.286/.315, 22 sb, 45 runs in 352 ab
Player B: .268/.325/.313, 32 sb, 44 runs in 351 ab

Player B is Jerry Owens

Player A is Julio Lugo, primary leadoff man for the 2007 World Champion Boston Red Sox.

:dunno:
To be fair, he was the primary leadoff man, but in no way the everyday leadoff man, as he only led off 82 out of 163 games.

jabrch
11-19-2007, 05:02 PM
You want a sub .340 OBP guy as your lead-off hitter?

I'd have no problem with OC leading off for us. There's a lot more to leading off than OBP.

Daver
11-19-2007, 05:02 PM
Yep. They become bandwidth hogs.

It is not so much the bandwidth, it is the load it puts on the server when a search is run, huge threads can really prolong search time, and can slow down the server enough to affect download speeds.

Noneck
11-19-2007, 05:07 PM
I don't have blind faith in him, but he did do damn near "water to wine' between 2004 and 2005. Technically, you have to say the true "miracle" (to extended the overused metaphor to the breaking point) was during the 2004 season, when he assembled 2/5ths of the 2005 rotation by acquiring Garcia and Contreras. Those two moves, plus getting El Duque, pushed Garland to the back of the rotation and it was the rotation that carried the team throughout the season and right into the playoffs.

Those who argue that the bullpen was the key to 2005 are only partially correct; the fact that the starters pitched so well and so deep into games is what kept the relievers from getting used too much, which in turn made them more effective.

The bottom line is that KW has earned my trust. If 2008 goes down the crapper, then I may have to re-evaluate my trust.


I do agree about 04-05, but my point is about pitchers who can both start and relieve. I see no one out there that can do this and if there is one, a Charlie Haeger type, he would be invented not obtained with the "extra" money.(Wilbur Wood is kinda long in the tooth these days.)

I am also interested in your idea about Uribe being that "super-sub". Where? At 2nd and 3rd? He has had very little ML experience at those spots. Do you think that he will be working hard in the off season to gain the experience at these positions, knowing he will be a sub?

guillen4life13
11-19-2007, 05:23 PM
FWIW, http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2007/11/cabrera-a-barga.html

Tries to make the case that, even if the Sox don't re-sign Cabrera, they will likely get more draft picks than they would have had they kept Garland and let him go after 2008.

Rockin Robin
11-19-2007, 05:26 PM
While I was listening to Coop on B&B, they were talking about Jose. Is there any way that Jose could improve now that he has Cabrera behind him?

Unless we put Cabrera in Section 159, I don't see how thats possible.

jabrch
11-19-2007, 05:26 PM
FWIW, http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2007/11/cabrera-a-barga.html

Tries to make the case that, even if the Sox don't re-sign Cabrera, they will likely get more draft picks than they would have had they kept Garland and let him go after 2008.

While it may be true, I highly doubt this was a big part of KW's decision. I imagine he decided that it is more likely that he can replace the productivity from Garland inside the organization than to replace what OC can do.

And we also still don't know how much cash he got in the deal, right?

CLR01
11-19-2007, 05:26 PM
Is it wrong for me to be hoping the door actually hits Uribe on his way out?

gogosox16
11-19-2007, 05:27 PM
That's why I thought Cabrera should be our leadoff guy. I'm assuming Pods won't be with us next year and there's no way Owens should be starting for us on Opening Day. If it had to be one of them though, it would probably be Owens because he is most likely Kenny's last resort if we can't get Hunter, Rowand, or anyone else.
I say we sign Hunter and Shannon Stewart and have Stewart and Owens platoon in left and be our leadoff hitters

Rudy Law
11-19-2007, 05:30 PM
Are you talking about defense?
There isn't much of a difference between Cabrera and Uribe out there and Contreras' failures definitely weren't Uribe's fault.


Yeah the only difference between Uribe and Cabrera is that gold glove and a .300 batting average......

gogosox16
11-19-2007, 05:31 PM
Yeah the only difference between Uribe and Cabrera is that gold glove and a .300 batting average......
Big difference when your old SS can't make the easy plays, strikes out 100 times and bats .250 or whatever he did.

jabrch
11-19-2007, 05:34 PM
Yeah the only difference between Uribe and Cabrera is that gold glove and a .300 batting average......

:tealtutor:


This is teal
This makes your head spin

Any Questions?

gogosox16
11-19-2007, 05:36 PM
:tealtutor:


This is teal
This makes your head spin

Any Questions?
he must be color blind.

Frater Perdurabo
11-19-2007, 05:38 PM
I am also interested in your idea about Uribe being that "super-sub". Where? At 2nd and 3rd? He has had very little ML experience at those spots. Do you think that he will be working hard in the off season to gain the experience at these positions, knowing he will be a sub?

In 2004, Uribe played 77 games at 2B, 38 at SS and 27 at 3B. (He also played 11 games at 2B with Colorado in 2003.) So he has some MLB experience at both 2B and 3B. As the "super sub" Uribe basically provides insurance at 3B in case Crede re-injures his back and/or 2B in case Richar struggles.

gogosox16
11-19-2007, 05:40 PM
In 2004, Uribe played 77 games at 2B, 38 at SS and 27 at 3B. (He also played 11 games at 2B with Colorado in 2003.) So he has some MLB experience at both 2B and 3B. As the "super sub" Uribe basically provides insurance at 3B in case Crede re-injures his back and/or 2B in case Richar struggles.
They should keep Uribe for utility and get rid of Cintron.....Use Uribe for defensive replacement at the end of games for Richar or something.

Frater Perdurabo
11-19-2007, 05:41 PM
They should keep Uribe for utility and get rid of Cintron.....Use Uribe for defensive replacement at the end of games for Richar or something.

I have no problem with that.

gogosox16
11-19-2007, 05:42 PM
I have no problem with that.
Yeah but 4.5 mil to be utility man is pretty hefty.

Noneck
11-19-2007, 05:44 PM
In 2004, Uribe played 77 games at 2B, 38 at SS and 27 at 3B. (He also played 11 games at 2B with Colorado in 2003.) So he has some MLB experience at both 2B and 3B. As the "super sub" Uribe basically provides insurance at 3B in case Crede re-injures his back and/or 2B in case Richar struggles.

That's very little experience at 2nd and 3rd plus that experience was 3+ years ago. You must have faith in Uribes work ethic this off season and his team player ethic knowing he will be a sub.

Madvora
11-19-2007, 05:45 PM
Yeah the only difference between Uribe and Cabrera is that gold glove and a .300 batting average......
I was talking about the fielding difference, which was in reference to the question about Cabrera helping out Contreras.
An award is just an award. Uribe is plenty good enough of a fielder to get a gold glove too.

DoItForDanPasqua
11-19-2007, 05:52 PM
Oh, the humanity!!!

The Angels just got quite a steal. Here they give up an average hitter with little power and a below average OBP for a pitcher who is consistently below the league average in ERA and regularly puts in 200+ inning seasons. Though Cabrera is clearly a very good defensive shortstop, I don't think Uribe was that horrible in that department.

There is nothing to indicate that the Sox are going after any starting pitching. Contreras, Broadway, Danks and Floyd is the sort of rotation Tampa would field.

If nothing else, the Sox got the wrong Cabrera. I was really hoping they would pull a deal for Miguel.

chisox77
11-19-2007, 05:54 PM
Strength up the middle - that's part of KW's plan.

Solid catcher (AJ) + very good/all-star SS (Cabrera) + possible all-star CF (Hunter), and Richar getting a shot ay 2B (good defense, developing hitter).

There are at least two more moves from this. I had to calm down as well, because I like Garland a lot. Obvoiusly, the White Sox were not going to sign him and with 1 year remaining, it made sense to deal him and get a serious upgrade in a key defensive position.

There's more to come . . . signing Hunter may be next, or another trade that addresses other areas needing upgrades. This is a "win now" type deal, and at least some pitching needs will be met via a trade.

We'll have to see what comes next.


:cool:

guillen4life13
11-19-2007, 05:55 PM
Don't remember where, but I read that the cash portion is $1.5 million, so essentially the Sox are saving $4.5 mil (since Garland is due $12 mil and OC is $9 mil).

JNS
11-19-2007, 05:55 PM
Uribe is plenty good enough of a fielder to get a gold glove too.

He's capable of making fantastic plays - great arm too - but he has the attention span of a pre-teen. Just too inconsistent.

I really don't understand why some folks are so insistant that Uribe was the answer - he wasn't.

Cabrera is one of the top SS's in MLB. We should all welcome him. The best SS we've had since Ozzie was in his prime. Before that you have to go all the way back to Ron Hanson or Looie.

This is a crucial position - we need to be HAPPY that this guy is on the South Side.

And he can hit? WOW! Party time!

Can we replace Garland - well, I sure hope so, but standing pat was not an option, and for the zillionith time, GARLAND WAS LEAVING ANYHOW.

JNS
11-19-2007, 05:59 PM
Strength up the middle - that's part of KW's plan.

Solid catcher (AJ) + very good/all-star SS (Cabrera) + possible all-star CF (Hunter), and Richar getting a shot ay 2B (good defense, developing hitter).


:cool:


THANK YOU! Do any of the nay-sayers understand what good fundamental baseball means? Among other things, it means HAVING A REALLY GOOD SHORTSTOP.

Now we have some. Did we give up quality? Yes. Is the sky falling? I don't think so.

All together children: WE GOTTA BE GOOD UP THE MIDDLE-tra-la-tra-la.

DoItForDanPasqua
11-19-2007, 06:05 PM
THANK YOU! Do any of the nay-sayers understand what good fundamental baseball means? Among other things, it means HAVING A REALLY GOOD SHORTSTOP.

Now we have some. Did we give up quality? Yes. Is the sky falling? I don't think so.

All together children: WE GOTTA BE GOOD UP THE MIDDLE-tra-la-tra-la.

It's a shame there's no good pitching up the middle.

CLR01
11-19-2007, 06:07 PM
It's a shame there's no good pitching up the middle.


Maybe good fundamental baseball doesn't require good pitching. 3 and a half question marks should be good enough.

ChiSoxIn06
11-19-2007, 06:14 PM
its going to be fun when all the people bashing this trade come crawling back when either gio or broadway have good solid seasons replacing garland and the team gets back to playing fundamental baseball....this is a good deal and more moves are on the way so calm down and watch KW work his mojo.

Noneck
11-19-2007, 06:21 PM
its going to be fun when all the people bashing this trade come crawling back when either gio or broadway have good solid seasons

What you really mean, is either Gio, Broadway, Denks, or Floyd being able to to give a competent 200+ season.

upperdeckusc
11-19-2007, 06:25 PM
i wonder when its going to come out as far as how much cash were getting from the angels.....
someone mentioned 1.5 million above. no source, so its hard to believe. i'd hope for at least 2 mil, 3 mil best case scenario.
as for that 1 mil bonus he's owed, i'm assuming the angels would pay that (hopefully).

weareud
11-19-2007, 06:30 PM
Oh, the humanity!!!

The Angels just got quite a steal. Here they give up an average hitter with little power and a below average OBP for a pitcher who is consistently below the league average in ERA and regularly puts in 200+ inning seasons. Though Cabrera is clearly a very good defensive shortstop, I don't think Uribe was that horrible in that department.

There is nothing to indicate that the Sox are going after any starting pitching. Contreras, Broadway, Danks and Floyd is the sort of rotation Tampa would field.

If nothing else, the Sox got the wrong Cabrera. I was really hoping they would pull a deal for Miguel.

:rolleyes: What would you rather we get? Judy does not have a ton of trade value, and we got a very solid shortstop in return.

LongLiveFisk
11-19-2007, 06:39 PM
from yahoo's expert blog:

"Orlando Cabrera, for me, is one of the best shortstops in baseball and Garland is a No. 3 starter," one insider said. "If you don't have something next, then I don't think it's a really good trade (for the Angels)."

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/mlb_experts/post/Angels-White-Sox-swap-big-names;_ylt=ApqZHoxxc8svrgYyI2qOWEaFCLcF?urn=mlb,54 272

Looks like most people think we got the better end of the deal.

I thought so too, but time will tell. :dunno:

JNS
11-19-2007, 06:40 PM
It's a shame there's no good pitching up the middle.

We lost one good pitcher. We have three - I believe Contreras still has something left - good ones still.

KW had to do something about the middle. That means that CF is next - as we all pretty much expect.

After that it's the pen - as we all pretty much expect.

We had OK starting pitching last season - and what did it get us? The second worst record on MLB, that's what.

You gotta give something to get something, and Garland was what we had to give.

Bottom line: there is still plenty of good pitching up the middle. And as many others have said here, it's only the beginning - lots more wheeling and dealing to be done, and plenty of time to do it in.

Frankfan4life
11-19-2007, 06:42 PM
I don't like the trade. Giving up a solid, dependable 28 year old pitcher for a 33 year old shortstop does not make sense to me. Don't get me wrong, I want Cabrera but I think the price paid was too high.

I think this one might put Kenny's toes out the front door.

KyWhiSoxFan
11-19-2007, 06:43 PM
Ok, my point was that citing the fact that Danks wore down as the season went on doesn't tell me much of anything about how Floyd is going to pitch or what Broadway, Gonzalez, and Egbert are going to do.

Also, we don't have to be set right now, its Nov 19th. Kenny isn't done, he's going to get either Rowand or Hunter and Kenny has some bargaining chips with Uribe, Crede, Fields, etc.

Let's sit back and let some things unfold before we go ape****. I agree with others that this is a lot like 2005 and the moves are going to build on top of each other.

Kenny even said in his conference call something to the effect of in the next couple weeks as other moves are made people are going to go "oh, I see what you're doing now".

But I don't really see the logical reasoning of one week the Sox spending $4.5-million on Uribe and then make him obsolete a week later. That's not really a grand plan. It was a $4.5-million insurance in case he could not get another shortstop, but that money spent on Uribe hamstrings things a bit. The Sox don't need a $4.5-million backup.

Maybe KW has a way to unload Uribe on someone else. Maybe he's trading both Fields and Crede and moving Uribe to third. We'll see.

JB98
11-19-2007, 06:46 PM
In 2004, Uribe played 77 games at 2B, 38 at SS and 27 at 3B. (He also played 11 games at 2B with Colorado in 2003.) So he has some MLB experience at both 2B and 3B. As the "super sub" Uribe basically provides insurance at 3B in case Crede re-injures his back and/or 2B in case Richar struggles.

I think Uribe would make a good bench player. Believe it or not, he hits lefties pretty well. He could platoon with Richar. He can play multiple positions effectively.

It just doesn't make much sense to play a utility guy $4.5 million per year. Of course, it's JR's money, not mine. But the financial side of the equation makes me suspect that Uribe could be on the move in a trade scenario.

And there's still no way I would trade Konerko for overrated Figgins and Shields, who struggled the second half of last season. Now that Garland has been moved, any trade of PK should include a starting pitcher in return. Despite your hate of PK, you have to acknowledge that his 30 HRs and 90-100 RBIs should net good pitching in return, should KW be inclined to trade him.

Tragg
11-19-2007, 06:49 PM
This trade demonstrates why the Angels make the playoffs every year and why the Sox make it once a decade and why I am again thankful that the Sox got the WS ring.

The Angels needed another starter. They have a veteran at SS, but young talent in the minors and a manager who can and will develop young talent. They dealt from strength.

The Sox come into the offseason with the league's worst offense. They have desparate needs at LF and CF. Their manager has yet to develop a single young player . For whatever reason, they re-sign their mediocre veteran SS. And they trade thier best trading chit for a 33 year old SS who hits .320 OBP (only 3 seasons in 10 with an OBP over .330) with 10 homers.

In other words. the Sox use their best trade commodity on a non-need; on yet another swing at everything slapper. Meanwhile, nothing in LF, nothing in CF....we have a $4 million dollar utility player.

Now, are we really supposed to believe there is NO market for him? Nonsense. There's a team that will give young talent if that starter will plug a hole; like maybe, the Angels. But when an Ozzie-style hacker is offered, the Sox' eyes get wide and can't resist.

JB98
11-19-2007, 06:50 PM
I don't like the trade. Giving up a solid, dependable 28 year old pitcher for a 33 year old shortstop does not make sense to me. Don't get me wrong, I want Cabrera but I think the price paid was too high.

I think this one might put Kenny's toes out the front door.

The organization seems to believe they have a surplus of pitching. Based on what I saw last season, I'm not convinced.

That's why I'm staying neutral on this move. Cabrera is a clear upgrade over Uribe, both offensively and defensively. He will help this team.

However, we DO NOT have a championship pitching staff in place at this point. More moves are coming I'm sure, and I hope we will head to spring training with a much-improved pitching staff.

Last year, we had only a handful of pitchers we could trust. One of them got dealt today. I'm worried about CF and the entire pitching staff right now.

KyWhiSoxFan
11-19-2007, 06:53 PM
I think Uribe would make a good bench player. Believe it or not, he hits lefties pretty well. He could platoon with Richar. He can play multiple positions effectively.

It just doesn't make much sense to play a utility guy $4.5 million per year. Of course, it's JR's money, not mine. But the financial side of the equation makes me suspect that Uribe could be on the move in a trade scenario.

And there's still no way I would trade Konerko for overrated Figgins and Shields, who struggled the second half of last season. Now that Garland has been moved, any trade of PK should include a starting pitcher in return. Despite your hate of PK, you have to acknowledge that his 30 HRs and 90-100 RBIs should net good pitching in return, should KW be inclined to trade him.

I agree. If PK is traded, a starting pitcher is needed in return. The Sox need at least four proven starters on opening day. Danks, Floyd, and Broadway do not fall into that category. They are all battling for the #5 spot. And that assumes Contreras returns to better form and can pitch like he did for the better part of 2006.

JNS
11-19-2007, 06:59 PM
Maybe KW has a way to unload Uribe on someone else. Maybe he's trading both Fields and Crede and moving Uribe to third. We'll see.

My guess is that he does.

He isn't a 3rd baseman - not enough stick. He will not be on the team come April, probably come January.

Here's the deal. There are lots of teams out there that need a quality shortstop, or even an OK one (I'd call Uribe OK, but not more than that). But these are teams that don't have the established pitching to spare as KW felt the Sox did. So getting a guy like Cabrera is impossible - they don't have the MLB arms to give up. But they have prospects, and they really need someone who can play the position.

So I'm pretty sure we can dump him as part of a package to get some prospects, thus making our pitching even deeper.

In spite of the hue and cry, the Sox are still deep in young, live arms - most of them having been listed here by others. I really don't think it's a bad bet that two of them will come through for us.

Denks
Floyd
Massett
Gio Gonzales
Lance Broadway
Charlie Haeger
Dewon Day (pitching very well in the Arizona Fall league)
Boone Logan
Ehren Wasserman
Heath Phillips

That's ten kids. Add the Javy, Mark, Jose, Bobby, Matt, and Mike, and you have enough to man the rotation and the pen.

Obviously that isn't going to happen - some of them will bomb, and some of them aren't ready.

But all these kids have shown lots of promise. How much you wanna bet that ALL of them tank?

anewman35
11-19-2007, 07:00 PM
The Sox come into the offseason with the league's worst offense. They have desparate needs at LF and CF. Their manager has yet to develop a single young player .

Bobby Jenks? And I'm sure cases could be made for others.

weareud
11-19-2007, 07:10 PM
This trade demonstrates why the Angels make the playoffs every year and why the Sox make it once a decade and why I am again thankful that the Sox got the WS ring.

The Angels needed another starter. They have a veteran at SS, but young talent in the minors and a manager who can and will develop young talent. They dealt from strength.

The Sox come into the offseason with the league's worst offense. They have desparate needs at LF and CF. Their manager has yet to develop a single young player . For whatever reason, they re-sign their mediocre veteran SS. And they trade thier best trading chit for a 33 year old SS who hits .320 OBP (only 3 seasons in 10 with an OBP over .330) with 10 homers.

In other words. the Sox use their best trade commodity on a non-need; on yet another swing at everything slapper. Meanwhile, nothing in LF, nothing in CF....we have a $4 million dollar utility player.

Now, are we really supposed to believe there is NO market for him? Nonsense. There's a team that will give young talent if that starter will plug a hole; like maybe, the Angels. But when an Ozzie-style hacker is offered, the Sox' eyes get wide and can't resist.

Posts like these make me embarrassed to be a sox fan sometimes. Swing at everything? DO you even know what you're talking about? He only struck out 64 times last year. You sir, are an idiot. :dtroll:

JNS
11-19-2007, 07:11 PM
Their manager has yet to develop a single young player .

No his job - his job is to win games and championships. How many young players did Joe Torre develop? I'm not sure what your reasoning is.

I hated the Lee for Pods trade. But it worked out, at least for a year.

I love this trade - it may be a bust, it may be great. It's all something of a crapshoot. Nobody hated the Cotts - Ardsma deal last year, but it was a total bust. Same with Gload for Sisco. Lots of folks rolled their eyes when KW signed Dye in 05, but that was a really good signing. So who knows?

We all know that KW lives in a high-risk/high-reward world. If JR cans him we may see a more cautious type in there, like Ron Schuler. But for now, we have KW - if he hits, we are in good shape, if he craps out, we are screwed.

Madvora
11-19-2007, 07:12 PM
We just have to wait until KW finishes his whole plan because every move can't be made at the same time.
However, as we stand right now, we're in trouble. If you subtracted Garland from last year's team and added Cabrera, I don't think you'd have much of a difference.
We're still only weeks away from the end of the World Series, so there is still time, but there are a lot more holes than usual this year.

Rockabilly
11-19-2007, 07:12 PM
This trade demonstrates why the Angels make the playoffs every year and why the Sox make it once a decade and why I am again thankful that the Sox got the WS ring.

The Angels needed another starter. They have a veteran at SS, but young talent in the minors and a manager who can and will develop young talent. They dealt from strength.

The Sox come into the offseason with the league's worst offense. They have desparate needs at LF and CF. Their manager has yet to develop a single young player . For whatever reason, they re-sign their mediocre veteran SS. And they trade thier best trading chit for a 33 year old SS who hits .320 OBP (only 3 seasons in 10 with an OBP over .330) with 10 homers.

In other words. the Sox use their best trade commodity on a non-need; on yet another swing at everything slapper. Meanwhile, nothing in LF, nothing in CF....we have a $4 million dollar utility player.

Now, are we really supposed to believe there is NO market for him? Nonsense. There's a team that will give young talent if that starter will plug a hole; like maybe, the Angels. But when an Ozzie-style hacker is offered, the Sox' eyes get wide and can't resist.


well it looks like we will have Hunter in CF next year. I didn't know the season started on Nov 19th give KW time to put this team together

munchman33
11-19-2007, 07:16 PM
Their manager has yet to develop a single young player

Jenks, Garland, and Crede all developed under Ozzie Guillen.

Just because Brian Anderson didn't develop doesn't mean Ozzie can't do it. Every worth a grain of salt report I ever heard about that situation said Brian wasn't making the adjustments his coaches were asking him to. You can only do so much.

gogosox16
11-19-2007, 07:18 PM
Jenks, Garland, and Crede all developed under Ozzie Guillen.

Just because Brian Anderson didn't develop doesn't mean Ozzie can't do it. Every worth a grain of salt report I ever heard about that situation said Brian wasn't making the adjustments his coaches were asking him to. You can only do so much.
Guillen truly only developed Jenks, Garland and Crede were slowly starting to come into their own but Ozzie showed trust in them through out it all and that helped them believe in themselves and make them better.

munchman33
11-19-2007, 07:18 PM
We just have to wait until KW finishes his whole plan because every move can't be made at the same time.
However, as we stand right now, we're in trouble. If you subtracted Garland from last year's team and added Cabrera, I don't think you'd have much of a difference.
We're still only weeks away from the end of the World Series, so there is still time, but there are a lot more holes than usual this year.

Honestly, to me, it seems more like a compete next year and contend in 2009 kind of move. Garland didn't fit in long term, and we need to be good up the middle to see if our young pitching is good enough.

Noneck
11-19-2007, 07:21 PM
Denks
Floyd
Massett
Gio Gonzales
Lance Broadway
Charlie Haeger
Dewon Day (pitching very well in the Arizona Fall league)
Boone Logan
Ehren Wasserman
Heath Phillips



The Sox need 90+ starts from Contreras and these "young, live arms". Of those 90+ starts, they will need about 50 wins in the games started by Contreras and these "young, live arms". That will make the Sox competitive next year, provided Vazques and Burls both have a good, injury free year. I think that's a lot to ask for.

Daver
11-19-2007, 07:27 PM
Jenks, Garland, and Crede all developed under Ozzie Guillen.

Just because Brian Anderson didn't develop doesn't mean Ozzie can't do it. Every worth a grain of salt report I ever heard about that situation said Brian wasn't making the adjustments his coaches were asking him to. You can only do so much.


Jenks yes, Garland and Crede, no, they were part of the lineup when Ozzie took the job. I have my doubts on Ozzie being able to develop talent, he doesn't have the patience for it.

munchman33
11-19-2007, 07:29 PM
Jenks yes, Garland and Crede, no, they were part of the lineup when Ozzie took the job. I have my doubts on Ozzie being able to develop talent, he doesn't have the patience for it.

And they were crap, too. They developed under Ozzie.

gogosox16
11-19-2007, 07:29 PM
Jenks yes, Garland and Crede, no, they were part of the lineup when Ozzie took the job. I have my doubts on Ozzie being able to develop talent, he doesn't have the patience for it.
*cough* *cough* Brian Anderson *cough* *cough*:smile:

Tragg
11-19-2007, 07:32 PM
Posts like these make me embarrassed to be a sox fan sometimes. Swing at everything? DO you even know what you're talking about? He only struck out 64 times last year. You sir, are an idiot.

Do you have an idea what plate patience is? Do you have any clue at all? It has nothing to do with striking out or not striking out. You can enjoy your hackers who make their outs to the right side; and you can enjoy your Darren Erstads.
The ignorant always engage in the ad homenims. Learn something about baseball before calling others idiots, sport.

WhiteSox5187
11-19-2007, 07:34 PM
Do you have an idea what plate patience is? Do you have any clue at all? It has nothing to do with striking out or not striking out. You can enjoy your hackers who make their outs to the right side; and you can enjoy your Darren Erstads.
The ignorant always engage in the ad homenims. Learn something about baseball before calling others idiots, sport.
Oh, "ad homenims," good word!

Tragg
11-19-2007, 07:35 PM
Bobby Jenks? And I'm sure cases could be made for others.
Jenks came in ready. He didn't ruin him, though. That's good. You could argue Cotts. Danks may develop. As may Fields (almost there).
He's better with pitchers, I agree, probably because the Sox have much better coaching for pitchers.

ode to veeck
11-19-2007, 07:41 PM
Jenks yes, Garland and Crede, no, they were part of the lineup when Ozzie took the job. I have my doubts on Ozzie being able to develop talent, he doesn't have the patience for it.

I think Ozzie brought Garland along mentally, he left him in through his troublesome middle innings (which he had never previously survived with any consistency) and as a result Jon really blossomed towards his potential. Jon always had the stuff, just mental gaps mostly, but was was mediocre at best before Ozzie.

That said, it's one of the very few exceptions of Ozzie "developments"

Grzegorz
11-19-2007, 07:50 PM
Garland didn't fit in long term, and we need to be good up the middle to see if our young pitching is good enough.

After the huge roll of the dice by Kenny last year regarding the bullpen I cannot see how he'd take a greater risk by standing pat on the starting rotation as it is currently constituted.

Myrtle72
11-19-2007, 07:51 PM
I certainly have read all of the posts on this topic because it's a bit much... but I'm a little confused about the negativity on this trade. Garland was really great and everything, but Cabrera is an excellent addition to the team in a spot that really needed improvement. Sure, we've already got a shortstop and sure, our starting rotation pretty much sucks now, but I can't imagine KW is just going to stop here with the trades. If he does stop here, THEN maybe I'll freak out, but until then I'm gonna say this is an overall positive move in a long line of trades that will be occurring this offseason.

Plus, I have to say, FINALLY, we didn't trade for someone that KW wants to mold into a good player.

DumpJerry
11-19-2007, 07:54 PM
:rolleyes: What would you rather we get? Judy does not have a ton of trade value, and we got a very solid shortstop in return.
One week. We have frowned on that **** for a few years now.

Lillian
11-19-2007, 08:01 PM
Originally Posted by Lillian http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1707383#post1707383)

The following post, which I submitted a while back, seems to have hit the nail on the head:


"This is a very valid point. I also agree with those of you who have asserted that this team is not going to be able to do the things that Ozzie says he wants to do, unless there are some different players.

Konerko probably has as much trade value as anyone on our team, and the Angels still look like the best fit. They have several short stops. What about Cabrera, a good relief pitcher, and one prospect for Konerko?
It would be nice if we could also pry Figgins away from them, but that would likely take one more player from the Sox. The Angels have coveted Konerko for a while, and they still need someone to protect Vlad in the lineup. He would likely agree to go to L.A., as has been mentioned here many times.

Now, if you sign Rowand, or any Center fielder who can provide both offense and defense, you probably don't need to do anything else to get this team ready to play the way Ozzie wants.

If they can't get Figgins, then Owens can play left, and lead off. Rowand has hit best in the number two spot, so that might be a solution to that problem. Cabrera is probably even a better fit there.

You can all figure out the rest of the lineup with this personnel, but it would give us good defense, and plenty of speed. Fields runs better than he showed this season, as he was nursing a hamstring injury from early in the year. Owens, Richar, Cabrera, Rowand and Fields all run well enough to let Ozzie play his kind of game.

Of course, there is always the option of trading Garland for a real impact speed guy, but it seems a shame to give up starting pitching."

I'm not trying to say "I told you so", but this earlier post of mine is interesting. I still feel like with Rowand in center, we could very well have the offensive holes fixed.

Daver
11-19-2007, 08:06 PM
I'm not trying to say "I told you so", but this earlier post of mine is interesting. I still feel like with Rowand in center, we could very well have the offensive holes fixed.

You build a team on offense, you are building a losing team, it's been proven.

Tragg
11-19-2007, 08:06 PM
I thought we had greater needs, so I see it as lost opportunity.
But, if we get a couple of hitters and a CF in, I'll be happy!

palehosepub
11-19-2007, 08:19 PM
After the OC for Garland trade today KW said it was the first move of many. I really don't mind the trade too much because I believe KW knows what he is doing. I think trading Konerko would make a lot of sense. My idea is trade PK to the Dodgers for Jonathon Bronxtan (Right hander who racks up many innings and had a sub 3 ERA) and Matt Kemp.Then I have heard the Sox want to trade Crede to the Phils for two prospects. Trade one of those prospects and throw in one from our system and get Crisp from the BoSox. Sign Hunter. Then sign either Randy Wolf or Bartolo Colon for the back of the rotation. Move Dye to first.

LF Crisp
SS Cabrera
DHThome
CF Hunter
1B Dye
C Pierzynski
3B Fields
RF Kemp
2B Richar

SP Buerhle,Vasquez,Contreras,Colon/Wolf, Gonzalez/Danks/ Egbert/ Broadway

LR Broadway/ Gonzo
MR Sisco, Macdougal
SU Bronxtan, Thortan
CP Jenks

I know I lack a lot of bullpen help but the Sox are deep in underachieving pitchers and Dewon Day has looked good in fall ball. I know for this to work out we would need bullpen pitchers to step up but Minnesota Twins do it everywhere whether its Lew Ford, Jason Tyner, Dennys Reyes oe Pat Neshek someone always steps up.

RockJock07
11-19-2007, 08:22 PM
Yes, he has. So maybe this is just a precursor to another deal???

I just thought of this, does KW take OC and trade him for another pitcher? Maybe that's why we aren't hearing anything about an extension yet. Just a thought.

anewman35
11-19-2007, 08:42 PM
I just thought of this, does KW take OC and trade him for another pitcher? Maybe that's why we aren't hearing anything about an extension yet. Just a thought.

No.

The Immigrant
11-19-2007, 08:56 PM
I just thought of this, does KW take OC and trade him for another pitcher?

Replace "OC" with "Uribe" and "another pitcher" with "a bag of balls", and you might be on to something.

JNS
11-19-2007, 09:08 PM
You build a team on offense, you are building a losing team, it's been proven.

Quite right old bean - which is why Cabrera is such a welcome addition - a guy who can really anchor the infield (everyone talks about his leadership).

His offense is gravy.

Now, if they really do sign Hunter - a guy who plays every game like it's his last and who has impeccable fundamentals - KW can go back to the pitching situation, with plenty of trade bait and some leftover cash.

The more I think about it, the more I like this move.

Not one of the antis has brought up the fact that 2008 would be Garland's last year with the Sox anyhow, and that waiting till the 08 deadline is just too risky. So it was best to move him now, and shore up a lousy infield with a quality SS.

On to the bullpen!

Brian26
11-19-2007, 09:11 PM
After the OC for Garland trade today KW said it was the first move of many. I really don't mind the trade too much because I believe KW knows what he is doing. I think trading Konerko would make a lot of sense. My idea is trade PK to the Dodgers for Jonathon Bronxtan (Right hander who racks up many innings and had a sub 3 ERA) and Matt Kemp.Then I have heard the Sox want to trade Crede to the Phils for two prospects. Trade one of those prospects and throw in one from our system and get Crisp from the BoSox. Sign Hunter. Then sign either Randy Wolf or Bartolo Colon for the back of the rotation. Move Dye to first.


:nuts:

JNS
11-19-2007, 09:12 PM
The Sox need 90+ starts from Contreras and these "young, live arms".

What;s your point?? That all these guys will be garbage? That they aren't live arms? That only a rotation of Early Wynn, Billy Pierce, Sandy Koufax, Ron Guidry, and Gaylord Perry can win it?

Your math is more or less correct, but that doesn't mean that some of these guys can't produce for us.

Noneck
11-19-2007, 09:34 PM
What;s your point?? That all these guys will be garbage? That they aren't live arms? That only a rotation of Early Wynn, Billy Pierce, Sandy Koufax, Ron Guidry, and Gaylord Perry can win it?

Your math is more or less correct, but that doesn't mean that some of these guys can't produce for us.


My point is, No I don't think they will be garbage but in order for the Sox to compete, 1 pitcher that is old and has shown a big decline and 2 young inexperienced pitchers have to start 90+ games and win 50+ games in which they start. This scenario is also predicated on the premise that the 1 and 2 starters will have the best years of their career.

So is it possible? Of course. Is it a bad bet that it will happen? Of course it is.

Sockinchisox
11-19-2007, 09:36 PM
Rosenthal confirms it, $1.5 mil is coming w/Cabrera.

Noneck
11-19-2007, 09:41 PM
Rosenthal confirms it, $1.5 mil is coming w/Cabrera.

So if they dump Uribe its a $10.5m savings. Lets see what they do with the savings.

Brian26
11-19-2007, 09:45 PM
Listening to the press conference. The best part is when Kenny says he couldn't get a hold of Juan because the voicemail was full on both of his phones.

:rolling:

ilsox7
11-19-2007, 09:46 PM
Listening to the press conference. The best part is when Kenny says he couldn't get a hold of Juan because the voicemail was full on both of his phones.

:rolling:

Maybe he fell asleep while the delivery man was at his door with his pizzas. Sometimes they leave 5 or 6 messages trying to wake you up.

Brian26
11-19-2007, 09:49 PM
Maybe he fell asleep while the delivery man was at his door with his pizzas. Sometimes they leave 5 or 6 messages trying to wake you up.

:D:

George Offman and Phil Rogers are tag-teaming Kenny now.

itsnotrequired
11-19-2007, 09:50 PM
Listening to the press conference. The best part is when Kenny says he couldn't get a hold of Juan because the voicemail was full on both of his phones.

:rolling:

Two phones? Uribe be big-tyming.

http://efil4zaggin.skyrock.com/pics/2118591.jpg

Brian26
11-19-2007, 09:52 PM
Kenny says that the Angels came to him right after he re-signed Uribe and said, "wow, we were just getting ready to approach you with Cabrera."

ilsox7
11-19-2007, 09:54 PM
:D:

George Offman and Phil Rogers are tag-teaming Kenny now.

I think I saw Phil Rogers at my gym this morning. We shared an elevator, but I was in no mood to inquire about his identity.

SouthSideHitman
11-19-2007, 09:55 PM
I think that people are a little too hung up on the player aspect of this deal, what I like about it is the room it frees up. I mean, it's obvious to me that we lost a year from a very solid young pitcher for at least a year of a shortstop who is clearly a major upgrade from last year. This seems to be a roughly neutral trade that might go either way, depending how things play out.

The upside, however is the money and flexibility. Besides the immediate $4.5 million the deal brings in, I'm betting that Uribe gets flipped somewhere (given the market for shortstops this offseason, that's easily where his greatest value is), which brings us $10 million. That kind of extra cash can give us some real flexibility when we're going after a big name CF and some serious pitching for next year.

The draft pick upside is also interesting. Getting an A player for a B player plus a million for our trouble is always a neat little trick. We also know that Garland was probably gonna be gone after 08 for one pick. Cabrera, on the other hand, is more likely to stay and if he doesn't, we get two picks. For an organization as chronically unproductive in the draft in the last 15 years as the Sox, that's no small feat.

It seems to me that players themselves are probably a roughly even swap that can go either way, it's the other parts of this deal that make it a rather savvy and potentially (depending on what else Kenny has up his sleeve) great move.

hi im skot
11-19-2007, 09:55 PM
After the OC for Garland trade today KW said it was the first move of many. I really don't mind the trade too much because I believe KW knows what he is doing. I think trading Konerko would make a lot of sense. My idea is trade PK to the Dodgers for Jonathon Bronxtan (Right hander who racks up many innings and had a sub 3 ERA) and Matt Kemp.Then I have heard the Sox want to trade Crede to the Phils for two prospects. Trade one of those prospects and throw in one from our system and get Crisp from the BoSox. Sign Hunter. Then sign either Randy Wolf or Bartolo Colon for the back of the rotation. Move Dye to first.

LF Crisp
SS Cabrera
DHThome
CF Hunter
1B Dye
C Pierzynski
3B Fields
RF Kemp
2B Richar

SP Buerhle,Vasquez,Contreras,Colon/Wolf, Gonzalez/Danks/ Egbert/ Broadway

LR Broadway/ Gonzo
MR Sisco, Macdougal
SU Bronxtan, Thortan
CP Jenks

I know I lack a lot of bullpen help but the Sox are deep in underachieving pitchers and Dewon Day has looked good in fall ball. I know for this to work out we would need bullpen pitchers to step up but Minnesota Twins do it everywhere whether its Lew Ford, Jason Tyner, Dennys Reyes oe Pat Neshek someone always steps up.


:bundy

mjmcend
11-19-2007, 10:16 PM
So if they dump Uribe its a $10.5m savings. Lets see what they do with the savings.

Not quite.

Garland $12 Million
Cabrera $10 Million

For a savings of $2 million.
Add the $1.5 million from the Angels and its up to $3.5 million.

If (and that's a big if) you can trade Uribe without eating any of his $4.5 million dollar contact, you save $8 million for next year.

champagne030
11-19-2007, 10:18 PM
So if they dump Uribe its a $10.5m savings. Lets see what they do with the savings.

Kenny will do very well to dump Uribe without kicking in some coin. Either way, it's not $10.5M. 12-10=2 add 1.5 plus 4.5 and it's $8M. Maybe Kenny hits the lotto and $8M buys 200 innings and a <4.8 ERA. Our rotation looks very, very weak at this point. Get on it KW!

upperdeckusc
11-19-2007, 10:18 PM
Not quite.

Garland $12 Million
Cabrera $10 Million

For a savings of $2 million.
Add the $1.5 million from the Angels and its up to $3.5 million.

If (and that's a big if) you can trade Uribe without eating any of his $4.5 million dollar contact, you save $8 million for next year.

everything i've heard and read is that cabrera is making 9 million this year. if you're referring to that 1 million bonus, i'm guessing anaheim is paying that outright. levine, and all the online articles, say 9 million for '08

champagne030
11-19-2007, 10:20 PM
Not quite.

Garland $12 Million
Cabrera $10 Million

For a savings of $2 million.
Add the $1.5 million from the Angels and its up to $3.5 million.

If (and that's a big if) you can trade Uribe without eating any of his $4.5 million dollar contact, you save $8 million for next year.

Maybe Uribe can eat his own salary too. :redneck

champagne030
11-19-2007, 10:21 PM
everything i've heard and read is that cabrera is making 9 million this year. if you're referring to that 1 million bonus, i'm guessing anaheim is paying that outright. levine, and all the online articles, say 9 million for '08

Why would you assume that?

KyWhiSoxFan
11-19-2007, 10:21 PM
I just thought of this, does KW take OC and trade him for another pitcher? Maybe that's why we aren't hearing anything about an extension yet. Just a thought.

The article that reported the trade indicated that it would not be surprising to see KW sign Cabrera to a long-term contract before spring training.

Noneck
11-19-2007, 10:26 PM
everything i've heard and read is that cabrera is making 9 million this year. if you're referring to that 1 million bonus, i'm guessing anaheim is paying that outright. levine, and all the online articles, say 9 million for '08


I was using the $8.5m he made in 07.

KyWhiSoxFan
11-19-2007, 10:36 PM
Here's part of an article on the trade from Keith Law of ESPN.com

The White Sox's aim in this deal is less apparent. Cabrera is a good defensive shortstop with very sure hands and good range, but he's mediocre at the plate. His .301 batting average in 2007 was a career best, and he hadn't topped .282 in any of the previous three seasons. Because he doesn't walk or hit for much power, Cabrera's offensive contribution depends on his batting average, and the evidence we have says that he's a .260-.280 hitter, not a .300 hitter. He has good bat control and makes a lot of contact, struggling against breaking stuff away but otherwise putting the ball in play. If he hits .300 again in this contract year, he'll be valuable, more valuable than Garland. But it's more likely the 33-year-old Cabrera reverts to form and hits .270 or so with gradually declining defense (due to age), making Garland the better value.

upperdeckusc
11-19-2007, 10:36 PM
Why would you assume that?

because in everything online and on the radio says he'll make 9 million. so either his bonus was already paid to him, or anaheim is paying for it in the near future. i haven't seen 10 mil anywhere. maybe they paid him it already.

champagne030
11-19-2007, 10:43 PM
because in everything online and on the radio says he'll make 9 million. so either his bonus was already paid to him, or anaheim is paying for it in the near future. i haven't seen 10 mil anywhere. maybe they paid him it already.

$9M base salary. Signing bonus paid out at a pro-rated basis over the life of the contract.....$1M/Yr. I really doubt his 2008 bonus has been paid....Hence, the kick in of cash from California.

http://www.mlb4u.com/profile.php?id=25

Bob G
11-19-2007, 10:43 PM
So far this off season there's been two major trades involving shortstops - Detroit with Renteria+cash (for 2 minor leaguers) and now us with Cabrera+cash for Garland.

Comparing career stats - Renteria has better offensive numbers but Cabrera is slightly better on defense. Both are almost the same age - less than one year apart.

So who got the best deal? Detroit, Atlanta, Anaheim or us?

JNS
11-19-2007, 10:50 PM
So is it possible? Of course. Is it a bad bet that it will happen? Of course it is.

Your scenario may very well be correct - as may mine, which is that we really can't do any worse than we did in 07, so what the hell - time to try the young pitching.

As has been discussed, they seem to be going with veteran position players, and a lot of young pitching.

I think all of the "old" guys: OC, PK, AJ, Dye, Hunter (I hope), all still have two - three years left, so it isn't really sink or swim this year.

Hell, maybe they'll do something goofy like sign Crede, or as I said earlier, take a risk on someone like Colon.

So I think in the end they are better off. It isn't as if they totally gutted the rotation - they still have several top-flight starters, two at the bare minimum - and they helped themselves tremendously at a vital skill position.

mjmcend
11-20-2007, 12:07 AM
because in everything online and on the radio says he'll make 9 million. so either his bonus was already paid to him, or anaheim is paying for it in the near future. i haven't seen 10 mil anywhere. maybe they paid him it already.

Not according to his contract. He gets $1 million in bonus each year of his four year deal. I think the $1.5 million sent by LA is to pay for the bonus.

oeo
11-20-2007, 12:11 AM
Here's part of an article on the trade from Keith Law of ESPN.com

The White Sox's aim in this deal is less apparent. Cabrera is a good defensive shortstop with very sure hands and good range, but he's mediocre at the plate. His .301 batting average in 2007 was a career best, and he hadn't topped .282 in any of the previous three seasons. Because he doesn't walk or hit for much power, Cabrera's offensive contribution depends on his batting average, and the evidence we have says that he's a .260-.280 hitter, not a .300 hitter. He has good bat control and makes a lot of contact, struggling against breaking stuff away but otherwise putting the ball in play. If he hits .300 again in this contract year, he'll be valuable, more valuable than Garland. But it's more likely the 33-year-old Cabrera reverts to form and hits .270 or so with gradually declining defense (due to age), making Garland the better value.

Hey guess what Keith Law: he's an upgrade over Juan Uribe, and we'll have a better shot at re-signing him than Garland. Not only that, but if we don't re-sign him, he will likely be a Type A free agent, while Garland will be a Type B.

I'm really starting to dislike this guy.

JermaineDye05
11-20-2007, 12:23 AM
Hey guess what Keith Law: he's an upgrade over Juan Uribe, and we'll have a better shot at re-signing him than Garland. Not only that, but if we don't re-sign him, he will likely be a Type A free agent, while Garland will be a Type B.

I'm really starting to dislike this guy.

I'm starting to think that he's related to Dayn Perry or maybe they're one and the same.

ChiSoxFan35
11-20-2007, 01:46 AM
Listening to replay of Kenny Williams interview on Chicago Tribune Live. Might've been covered here already but yeah

-Emphasizes he's not done
-Raved about Cabrera, his savyness (I like that word), filled a couple of holes important for him
-Thinks he took care of pitching depth last year, thinks the rotation is set with the choices of Danks, Gavin, Gio ( :( )
- Asked about value - He said Angels fans are saying the same thing ("That's it?"), it's the nature of the business. "I could've traded Garland for prospects", but he wanted a move to win in 08.
-Still looking for bullpen help, that is high on the list
- Jerry Owens showed he can be the sparkplug at the top of the rotation and he'll get better, and they'll look at him first, but it's "like the Juan Uribe situation". Was asked about Hunter, he just said the things people hear about the most usually don't happen.
- Asked about the starting third basemen, danced around it, but it really sounds like Joe is gone.
- Are you looking for a new home for Juan Uribe? "Yes and no" Brought up a possible competition at 2nd if necc.

ChiSoxFan35
11-20-2007, 01:49 AM
On the interview I just summarized, eh, he says he could've traded him for prospects but wanted to win now. Is Cabrera the caliber player that helps you win now? You save some money but I think there are more important holes. I am not fine with this rotation, even with Garland in it it's questionable.

I'm guessing an OF signing is next and Crede is gone, probably for pitching and/or prospects

A. Cavatica
11-20-2007, 01:57 AM
Assuming this is just the first piece of the master plan, I like it. Cabrera's a very good shortstop, who I think will sign an extension, and Uribe was maybe the worst-hitting regular in MLB; he was killing us. Garland is replaceable.

Since KW said he would only trade pitching for pitching, is he about to move a position player for a pitcher? The candidates would seem to be Uribe (too expensive for a backup); Crede (before he hits FA, and to make room for Fields); or Konerko (another way to make room for Fields).

The Angels still seem like a logical trading partner, but maybe KW has to swing another deal first to make things match up.

MetroPD
11-20-2007, 03:47 AM
WOO HOO!! JOY OF JOYS! We have Cabrera AND Uribe!!!

Grzegorz
11-20-2007, 04:40 AM
Cabrera is a older shortstop; looking to him as a long term solution is excessively optimistic.

This team is building for 2008 but it still needs components. Luckily KW has some time to find those pieces.

Jjav829
11-20-2007, 07:02 AM
Maybe Uribe can eat his own salary too. :redneck

:roflmao:

DumpJerry
11-20-2007, 07:21 AM
Cabrera is a older shortstop; looking to him as a long term solution is excessively optimistic.
He is the solution until that 16 year old kid is ready for The Big Show.

wdelaney72
11-20-2007, 07:27 AM
Another advantage of keeping Uribe as the super-sub is we finally have someone who could come in and pinch hit late in the game and hit the ball out of the ballpark. No, Uribe is not a good hitter, but he could provide power off the bench and that threat is something we've missed for quite some time.

If Cabrera gets extended (which I believe he will) I think we'll like this move.

Madvora
11-20-2007, 07:34 AM
Another advantage of keeping Uribe as the super-sub is we finally have someone who could come in and pinch hit late in the game and hit the ball out of the ballpark. No, Uribe is not a good hitter, but he could provide power off the bench and that threat is something we've missed for quite some time.

If Cabrera gets extended (which I believe he will) I think we'll like this move.
Oh God. I really hope that we're not going to be in a position to rely on Uribe to score us some runs. His only value is defense.
I know that he hit 20 home runs, but when you need to rely on a guy late in a game, the last person I'd think of is Juan Uribe.

Corlose 15
11-20-2007, 07:42 AM
He is the solution until that 16 year old kid is ready for The Big Show.

I forgot about that guy. It'd be great if he actually developed.


This actually makes a lot of sense, sign Cabrera for 2 year with an option or something like that and you've got a good shortstop in place, with a good prospect developing in the wings.

The catch is the Sox actually have to develop him.:redneck

The Immigrant
11-20-2007, 07:43 AM
Oh God. I really hope that we're not going to be in a position to rely on Uribe to score us some runs. His only value is defense.
I know that he hit 20 home runs, but when you need to rely on a guy late in a game, the last person I'd think of is Juan Uribe.

He didn't say we would rely on Uribe to do anything. His point was that Uribe could provide some power off the bench in late innings - which is something our bench has lacked for the last two seasons. Would you rather have Alex Cintron or Andy Gonzales trying to swing for the fences to tie the game?

balke
11-20-2007, 08:03 AM
I could definitely accept Uribe as a 2Bman. Only 7 guys had 20+ HR's at 2B last season, and only 2 of them in the AL. HR's aren't everything, but 2B is a position that if you are getting great D (which I always thought Uribe would make a great defensive 2Bman) you'll definitely be accepting of HR's over avg.

It'd be great to see a .250 avg and 20+ hr's out of him there at that position.

Uribe at 2B would make Richar less of a gamble, and give him 2 great defensive mentors in the IF.

Get a leadoff guy in LF (On the cheap he could probably get Pods or Erstad. I don't like Erstad leading off, but Kenny does. There's also Owens, who I guess in LF I wouldn't mind too much, but I'd rather see someone on base more at the top of the order) and a top tier CFer and I'll be pretty happy with the team offensively.

I just wonder where Kenny's going to find a reliever or 2.

wdelaney72
11-20-2007, 08:31 AM
Oh God. I really hope that we're not going to be in a position to rely on Uribe to score us some runs. His only value is defense.
I know that he hit 20 home runs, but when you need to rely on a guy late in a game, the last person I'd think of is Juan Uribe.

That's the beauty of it. You're not relying on him. I'm simply saying he's a HR threat off the bench, which is something we haven't had.

balke
11-20-2007, 08:35 AM
That's the beauty of it. You're not relying on him. I'm simply saying he's a HR threat off the bench, which is something we haven't had.

If Uribe stays, he won't be on the bench. He'll be resting more, but I'm fairly sure he'll be the starting 2Bman.

If Ozuna can come back healthy, this is going to be a great IF in terms of rest and depth.

CLR01
11-20-2007, 08:41 AM
He didn't say we would rely on Uribe to do anything. His point was that Uribe could provide some power off the bench in late innings - which is something our bench has lacked for the last two seasons. Would you rather have Alex Cintron or Andy Gonzales trying to swing for the fences to tie the game?

Does it really matter which of the three swings through a pitch to end the game? Only difference would be Uribe would be getting paid more per strike.

Lillian
11-20-2007, 09:24 AM
I don't understand why K.W. was in such a rush to resign Uribe. Of course, he didn't know about the Cabrera trade, but why did he have to resign him so quickly. He didn't exercise the option, so that isn't the explanation. Couldn't he have put off the negotiations? He could have just told him that they weren't certain of the resources they would have, in that they had so many pieces to acquire.

Regarding the idea of playing him at second, I don't like it. If you are going to have both Cabrera and Uribe in the lineup, what was the point of using our biggest trading chip for Cabrera. We could have acquired a comparable bat to play second, for a lot less, and just left Uribe at SS. There is not that much difference in their defense. Moreover, Juan's arm is wasted at second, and his range is not as good as Richar's. He also does not add any speed, which Ozzie covets.

I think that you have to try to trade him, or you keep him as a backup, in case Cabrera gets hurt. Starting him anywhere, makes no sense. I've always loved Uribe's potential, but he has proven to be lazy, uncoachable, and irresponsible about his conditioning.

SBSoxFan
11-20-2007, 09:26 AM
I deserve a cookie for reading all 500+ posts. Mods deserve trophies. :D:

Anyway, I'm withholding judgment until Spring Training ends. But my gut reaction is that this is a fair, even trade. If KW can sign Cabrera to an extension, then this becomes a great trade.

Now for a second trade with LAA: PK for Figgins and Shields. Move Fields to 1B, keep Crede and keep Uribe as the super-sub. Sign Hunter. Invest the savings into pitchers who can both start and relieve.

Lineup becomes Figgins, OC, Thome, JD, Hunter, AJ, Crede, Fields, Richar. Decent speed at 1, 2, 5, 8 and 9. Great defense up the middle and 3B. Good power at 3, 4, 5, 7, and 8. What's not to like?
:)

http://www.jolle.se/imgs/cookie.jpg


So, who plays first if Crede isn't healthy?

voodoochile
11-20-2007, 09:32 AM
I don't understand why K.W. was in such a rush to resign Uribe. Of course, he didn't know about the Cabrera trade, but why did he have to resign him so quickly. He didn't exercise the option, so that isn't the explanation. Couldn't he have put off the negotiations? He could have just told him that they weren't certain of the resources they would have, in that they had so many pieces to acquire.

Regarding the idea of playing him at second, I don't like it. If you are going to have both Cabrera and Uribe in the lineup, what was the point of using our biggest trading chip for Cabrera. We could have acquired a comparable bat to play second, for a lot less, and just left Uribe at SS. There is not that much difference in their defense. Moreover, Juan's arm is wasted at second, and his range is not as good as Richar's. He also does not add any speed, which Ozzie covets.

I think that you have to try to trade him, or you keep him as a backup, in case Cabrera gets hurt. Starting him anywhere, makes no sense. I've always loved Uribe's potential, but he has proven to be lazy, uncoachable, and irresponsible about his conditioning.

He had to re sign Uribe or he wouldn't have had ANY viable SS option for next year available to him. If he didn't sign Uribe right then and there, he couldn't have made an offer to him until May or something because of the CBA.

Uribe had an option year, so the Sox had to put up or shut up right then and there. KW didn't want to risk not being able to acquire a SS and being forced to play say Cintron there all next season, so he took a chance, negotiated and re-signed Uribe.

jabrch
11-20-2007, 09:34 AM
He had to re sign Uribe or he wouldn't have had ANY viable SS option for next year available to him. If he didn't sign Uribe right then and there, he couldn't have made an offer to him until May or something because of the CBA.

Uribe had an option year, so the Sox had to put up or shut up right then and there. KW didn't want to risk not being able to acquire a SS and being forced to play say Cintron there all next season, so he took a chance, negotiated and re-signed Uribe.

And WORST CASE SCENARIO, if he can't move him, Uribe makes fine insurance for 3B, SS and 2B. He can come in off the bench as a PH. And maybe he'd be motivated (I know we have said this before) knowing that if he doesn't perform this year, he will struggle to find much interest next off-season?

KW did what he had to do. Unless he could have gotten OC earlier, which I assume he tried to do, he had no intelligent choice.

SBSoxFan
11-20-2007, 09:36 AM
My feeling on that is the 3B market is really starting to solidify. A-Rod and Lowell will be re-signed by the end of the week, leaving Cabrera (El Gordo, not OC), Crede and maybe Rolen available on the market.

So by the time the Winter Meetings roll around, other GMs are going to freak that they can't get a decent 3B. I expect the Angels with their newfound horde of pitching and good prospects to land Cabrera, leaving the Dodgers and other teams needing a quality 3B.

That's when Kenny will strike. Despite Crede's back concerns and upcoming FA, he's had great seasons in 05 and 06 and someone will overpay. Throw in a kid pitcher and Anderson or Sweeney, and the Sox could grab a good #3 starter.

Sooo... Who can we steal from the Dodgers? :D:

Crede for Garland?

upperdeckusc
11-20-2007, 09:52 AM
I could definitely accept Uribe as a 2Bman. Only 7 guys had 20+ HR's at 2B last season, and only 2 of them in the AL. HR's aren't everything, but 2B is a position that if you are getting great D (which I always thought Uribe would make a great defensive 2Bman) you'll definitely be accepting of HR's over avg.

It'd be great to see a .250 avg and 20+ hr's out of him there at that position.

Uribe at 2B would make Richar less of a gamble, and give him 2 great defensive mentors in the IF.

Get a leadoff guy in LF (On the cheap he could probably get Pods or Erstad. I don't like Erstad leading off, but Kenny does. There's also Owens, who I guess in LF I wouldn't mind too much, but I'd rather see someone on base more at the top of the order) and a top tier CFer and I'll be pretty happy with the team offensively.

I just wonder where Kenny's going to find a reliever or 2.

we haven't seen that out of him the past 2 years average-wise. what makes you think he'll do it at 2b? besides backup catcher, a .220 average is not acceptable at any position. a .220 average is exactly what you'd get from him. get his money off this payroll asap, non tender cintron, and bring home a big fish!!!

MisterB
11-20-2007, 09:59 AM
I don't understand why K.W. was in such a rush to resign Uribe. Of course, he didn't know about the Cabrera trade, but why did he have to resign him so quickly. He didn't exercise the option, so that isn't the explanation. Couldn't he have put off the negotiations? He could have just told him that they weren't certain of the resources they would have, in that they had so many pieces to acquire.

The option IS the explanation.

November 7th was the Major League deadline for picking up player options (defined as being 10 days after the end of the World Series). SO KW had until then to either:

1. Decline the option
2. Exercise the option
3. Negotiate a new deal before the deadline

Kenny, rather than be faced with having NO major league capable shortstop on the 40-man roster decided to go with #3.

edit: Voodoo beat me to it.

balke
11-20-2007, 10:00 AM
besides backup catcher, a .220 average is not acceptable at any position.

I agree. Uribe's lowest avg. in a season is .234 though.

Uribe's career avg. is .254 which is .034 higher than .220 and for a 2Bman who is going to hit 20 hr's, and most likely be one of the best 2Bman defensively at that position, its pretty acceptable. He'd be hitting #9 if Kenny gets a good CFer.

If you're arguing for Richar, I don't think he'll be as good defensively this season, he has time to learn, and he doesn't seem to hit much better than Juan yet.

a .220 average is exactly what you'd get from him. get his money off this payroll asap, non tender cintron, and bring home a big fish!!!

So put all your money on a 33 year old SS playing a full season with no backup plan? I doubt it at this point. Cabrera's been healthy, but the Sox are going to have to keep Cintron or Juan. I doubt they'll find a suitor for Uribe without giving up a bunch of money. They may be better suited to keep him around, so they can deal Cabrera at the deadline if this team falls apart again. And are you psychic or what? Juans never hit .220.

spiffie
11-20-2007, 10:12 AM
I agree. Uribe's lowest avg. in a season is .234 though.

Uribe's career avg. is .254 which is .034 higher than .220 and for a 2Bman who is going to hit 20 hr's, and most likely be one of the best 2Bman defensively at that position, its pretty acceptable. He'd be hitting #9 if Kenny gets a good CFer.

If you're arguing for Richar, I don't think he'll be as good defensively this season, he has time to learn, and he doesn't seem to hit much better than Juan yet.



So put all your money on a 33 year old SS playing a full season with no backup plan? I doubt it at this point. Cabrera's been healthy, but the Sox are going to have to keep Cintron or Juan. I doubt they'll find a suitor for Uribe without giving up a bunch of money. They may be better suited to keep him around, so they can deal Cabrera at the deadline if this team falls apart again. And are you psychic or what? Juans never hit .220.
FWIW if the team is talking about signing Cabrera long term I don't think the trading deadline becomes a concern for them. It sounds like they want to plug him in as the SS for the next few years.

balke
11-20-2007, 10:15 AM
FWIW if the team is talking about signing Cabrera long term I don't think the trading deadline becomes a concern for them. It sounds like they want to plug him in as the SS for the next few years.

If this team is on pace for 70 wins again, they could change their tune real quick. Cabrera is the ultimate trade piece when its deadline time and a big money team needs a good SS for the playoffs.

The Dude
11-20-2007, 10:20 AM
Now for a second trade with LAA: PK for Figgins and Shields. Move Fields to 1B, keep Crede and keep Uribe as the super-sub. Sign Hunter. Invest the savings into pitchers who can both start and relieve.


PK is not going to be traded! You've been asking for it for the last 3+ years!!!!
I'm really getting tired of quoting you on it. :thud:

Also, Crede is not staying with this team. Fields is a 3rd baseman, not a 1st baseman. The only thing here that makes sense is signing Hunter.

If I had a cookie, I would not give it to you.:)

DumpJerry
11-20-2007, 10:26 AM
If Uribe was not signed, Kenny would have had to give up more than just Garland for Cabrera.

upperdeckusc
11-20-2007, 10:26 AM
I agree. Uribe's lowest avg. in a season is .234 though.

Uribe's career avg. is .254 which is .034 higher than .220 and for a 2Bman who is going to hit 20 hr's, and most likely be one of the best 2Bman defensively at that position, its pretty acceptable. He'd be hitting #9 if Kenny gets a good CFer.

If you're arguing for Richar, I don't think he'll be as good defensively this season, he has time to learn, and he doesn't seem to hit much better than Juan yet.



So put all your money on a 33 year old SS playing a full season with no backup plan? I doubt it at this point. Cabrera's been healthy, but the Sox are going to have to keep Cintron or Juan. I doubt they'll find a suitor for Uribe without giving up a bunch of money. They may be better suited to keep him around, so they can deal Cabrera at the deadline if this team falls apart again. And are you psychic or what? Juans never hit .220.

yea because he usually has september to bring his average up to .235. as a backup, he might not have that luxury. i dont put much faith into "career" averages, because they are inflated by a few good years, which are obviously out of the norm for him right now. the only way he'll hit .250 is if we only bring him in in situations as a pinch hitter when the bases are loaded and he'll just see fast balls so he doesnt get walked. even then, he'll strike out 3 out of 4 times. its easier to find a bench SS to play once every 2 wks for league minimum then have uribe make money or sitting on the bench and get fatter.

voodoochile
11-20-2007, 10:27 AM
The option IS the explanation.

November 7th was the Major League deadline for picking up player options (defined as being 10 days after the end of the World Series). SO KW had until then to either:

1. Decline the option
2. Exercise the option
3. Negotiate a new deal before the deadline

Kenny, rather than be faced with having NO major league capable shortstop on the 40-man roster decided to go with #3.

edit: Voodoo beat me to it.

Yeah, but you explained it better. I didn't know all of the exact details and you summarized them very well.

voodoochile
11-20-2007, 10:32 AM
I agree. Uribe's lowest avg. in a season is .234 though.

Uribe's career avg. is .254 which is .034 higher than .220 and for a 2Bman who is going to hit 20 hr's, and most likely be one of the best 2Bman defensively at that position, its pretty acceptable. He'd be hitting #9 if Kenny gets a good CFer.

If you're arguing for Richar, I don't think he'll be as good defensively this season, he has time to learn, and he doesn't seem to hit much better than Juan yet.



So put all your money on a 33 year old SS playing a full season with no backup plan? I doubt it at this point. Cabrera's been healthy, but the Sox are going to have to keep Cintron or Juan. I doubt they'll find a suitor for Uribe without giving up a bunch of money. They may be better suited to keep him around, so they can deal Cabrera at the deadline if this team falls apart again. And are you psychic or what? Juans never hit .220.

Since when is 33 with no history of injuries an injury risk?

I don't mind keeping Uribe, though I wouldn't mind trading him if they can actually get something for him either - like a reliever from a team who needs a SS who can play defense and hit 20 HR and costs less than $5M (we may not like Juan, but that doesn't mean there is zero interest in a player with those credentials behind him).

balke
11-20-2007, 10:37 AM
yea because he usually has september to bring his average up to .235. as a backup, he might not have that luxury. i dont put much faith into "career" averages, because they are inflated by a few good years, which are obviously out of the norm for him right now. the only way he'll hit .250 is if we only bring him in in situations as a pinch hitter when the bases are loaded and he'll just see fast balls so he doesnt get walked. even then, he'll strike out 3 out of 4 times. its easier to find a bench SS to play once every 2 wks for league minimum then have uribe make money or sitting on the bench and get fatter.

He won't be on the bench if he stays here, that's where you're confusing yourself. And if you don't think career avg. has any merit for a 28 year old SS, then I'd rather not discuss baseball with you. Average is actually the central tendency of performance. It is just as inflated by good stats as it is deflated by bad stats.

Look at Mike Lowell's avg. last year, look what Jermaine Dye did 2 years ago, look at what Cabrera did last year. You only think his avg. will go down to .220 because you are a pessimist. In fact, his avg. could go up. His career avg. indicates it will.

balke
11-20-2007, 10:40 AM
Since when is 33 with no history of injuries an injury risk?

I don't mind keeping Uribe, though I wouldn't mind trading him if they can actually get something for him either - like a reliever from a team who needs a SS who can play defense and hit 20 HR and costs less than $5M (we may not like Juan, but that doesn't mean there is zero interest in a player with those credentials behind him).

Its not a risk, but I don't think its ever a good idea to assume a SS needs no back-up plan. I was responding to the idea of dumping Uribe and cutting Cintron, leaving Gonzalez or Ozuna to play SS or 2B or possibly even 3B in the case of an injury if Crede goes and Fields is left as the sole 3Bman. I like depth, and think Richar should be that depth, with Uribe starting at 2B. That's what I'd like to see, it would keep the infield strong and fresh.

I agree though of course, if you can get a good reliever for Uribe (which I doubt unless there's a significant salary dump) then go ahead. If all you can do is trade him for an A level prospect and pay half his salary for him to play elsewhere, then I'd rather see him at 2B.

spiffie
11-20-2007, 10:50 AM
He won't be on the bench if he stays here, that's where you're confusing yourself. And if you don't think career avg. has any merit for a 28 year old SS, then I'd rather not discuss baseball with you. Average is actually the central tendency of performance. It is just as inflated by good stats as it is deflated by bad stats.

Look at Mike Lowell's avg. last year, look what Jermaine Dye did 2 years ago, look at what Cabrera did last year. You only think his avg. will go down to .220 because you are a pessimist. In fact, his avg. could go up. His career avg. indicates it will.
However his trends indicate that it will go down, or remain in the area of the last two years. In years where Juan has been a starter (450+ ABs) his averages have been:
2002 - .240
2004 - .283
2005 - .252
2006 - .235
2007 - .234

His OPS has also been steadily declining every year since 2004:
2002 - .627
2004 - .833
2005 - .713
2006 - .698
2007 - .678

Average can be a useful indicator, but where there is a single aberrant data point that is so far removed from all the others, the average can become misleading. Perhaps his median might be more useful, as he has a median BA of .240 and OPS of .698. At this point in his career Juan has a small enough data set of AB's that his one very good year (and his good half year as a rookie in 2001) is still influencing his numbers, though the impact is less with each year. To put in a different perspective, what we've seen from Juan for most of his career, outside of his 72 games in 2001 and his looking more inexplicable by the day 2004 is a batting average of .242 and that sounds about right for Juan. If he accidentally runs his bat into a couple more balls than last year he should hit that number.

balke
11-20-2007, 11:01 AM
However his trends indicate that it will go down, or remain in the area of the last two years. In years where Juan has been a starter (450+ ABs) his averages have been:
2002 - .240
2004 - .283
2005 - .252
2006 - .235
2007 - .234

His OPS has also been steadily declining every year since 2004:
2002 - .627
2004 - .833
2005 - .713
2006 - .698
2007 - .678

Average can be a useful indicator, but where there is a single aberrant data point that is so far removed from all the others, the average can become misleading. Perhaps his median might be more useful, as he has a median BA of .240 and OPS of .698. At this point in his career Juan has a small enough data set of AB's that his one very good year (and his good half year as a rookie in 2001) is still influencing his numbers, though the impact is less with each year. To put in a different perspective, what we've seen from Juan for most of his career, outside of his 72 games in 2001 and his looking more inexplicable by the day 2004 is a batting average of .242 and that sounds about right for Juan. If he accidentally runs his bat into a couple more balls than last year he should hit that number.


Let's call it .243 with 20 Hr's and great D at 2B. I'll still take it. Richar hit .230 last season with 6 Hr's.

I'm not the guys biggest supporter, but I'm not going to shudder if he's at 2B. He'd be a much more valuable 2Bman than a SS IMO.

spiffie
11-20-2007, 11:11 AM
Let's call it .243 with 20 Hr's and great D at 2B. I'll still take it. Richar hit .230 last season with 6 Hr's.

I'm not the guys biggest supporter, but I'm not going to shudder if he's at 2B. He'd be a much more valuable 2Bman than a SS IMO.
If you promised me GREAT defense I might be open to it, assuming we have big upgrades in CF, LF, and get a #3 starter. But Uribe's defense last year was not great. It was not bad, but it was above average at best. If he comes in again this year overweight and uninterested I fail to see any way that the team is made better by his presence in the starting lineup.

TomBradley72
11-20-2007, 11:23 AM
When it comes to Uribe....if you can dump his salary...you do it. Based on the "hunger" to win he has (or has not) demonstrated the past year or two...I don't want him on the roster...the chemistry of this team needs to be shaken up....

Lip Man 1
11-20-2007, 11:33 AM
Just FYI, Tony Gianittit in the Sun-Times story today says categorically that Iguchi wants to return to the White Sox.

Could this also be a factor for the events of the last 24 hours?

Lip

doublem23
11-20-2007, 11:36 AM
Also, Crede is not staying with this team. Fields is a 3rd baseman, not a 1st baseman. The only thing here that makes sense is signing Hunter.


After having to watch Josh Fields play third base for most of last season, I would not mind moving him to a less important defensive position. I mean, it wasn't like he didn't have the physical tools to play the position, there were a few times I honestly felt he had no idea what to do. The bets example I can come up with off the top of my head happened in a game against Kansas City, I think, where someone laid a bunt down the third base line that was obviously going to roll foul (I can't describe it any better than that... barring a monumental shift in plate tectonics at that very instant, there was no possible way that ball would not roll foul), and Fields strolls over, grabs the ball IN FAIR TERRITORY and then realizes he has no play because he was playing a step or two behind the bag. All I remember was yelling "What the ****!" as I watch him pick up that ball. I mean, I knew not to do that in Little League.

He's got a sweet bat, but I'm seriously concerned about what sort of defensive third baseman he will develop into.

jabrch
11-20-2007, 11:37 AM
Just FYI, Tony Gianittit in the Sun-Times story today says categorically that Iguchi wants to return to the White Sox.

Could this also be a factor for the events of the last 24 hours?

Lip

How do you figure? I think our IF looks fairly set with Richar and Uribe battling for 2B. The only question I have is what happens to Crede to see if 3B opens up to Fields or not.

chisox77
11-20-2007, 11:38 AM
I'm not bothered by Cabrera's age at all. Some at WSI are, and I can understand that, but . . .

. . . really good shortstops age well, Iv'e noticed. Many of them play well into their late 30s (and at least near their peak level, defensively). They are often the best conditioned players on the roster, because they need great range to field their position.

I would not have a problem if KW signed Cabrera to a three/maybe four year extension off his present contract. I think the White Sox acquired an excellent shortstop, and a significant FA signing for a CF will follow (hopefully Hunter, which this recent trade logically sets up).

There will still be time and some resources for KW to address the bullpen. The Garland for Cabrera trade will be followed by at least two more moves, IMO.

:cool:

oeo
11-20-2007, 11:39 AM
After having to watch Josh Fields play third base for most of last season, I would not mind moving him to a less important defensive position.

Did you see him from when he was first called up, till he was moved back to third at the end of the year? He already showed improvement in those few months.

Taliesinrk
11-20-2007, 11:39 AM
Just FYI, Tony Gianittit in the Sun-Times story today says categorically that Iguchi wants to return to the White Sox.

Could this also be a factor for the events of the last 24 hours?

Lip

No ****?? Is this guy (the reporter) reliable? I can't see the Sox doing it with all the guys they have up the middle now... but, Iguchi would probably be their best 2B option, IMO.

doublem23
11-20-2007, 11:41 AM
Did you see him from when he was first called up, till he was moved back to third at the end of the year? He already showed improvement in those few months.

I edited that post to give a little story, which I believe happened sometime in September. I'm not questioning the guy's bat. I just don't think he has any idea how to play his position.

Taliesinrk
11-20-2007, 11:42 AM
With what we have now, I say we sign Iguchi to a relatively cheap contract, stick Richar in AAA, and have Juan back-up middle INF. I mean with Ozzie's whacked out line-ups, he'll get a decent number of ABs.

gregory18n
11-20-2007, 11:45 AM
I'm hoping that after we sign Hunter, the next move is to send Fields, Uribe & a pitching prospect to Tampa for Carl Crawford. Also sign Mike Timlin & the Japanese reliever & another starter. I'de be happy with that.

fusillirob1983
11-20-2007, 11:46 AM
Let's call it .243 with 20 Hr's and great D at 2B. I'll still take it. Richar hit .230 last season with 6 Hr's.

I'm not the guys biggest supporter, but I'm not going to shudder if he's at 2B. He'd be a much more valuable 2Bman than a SS IMO.

I don't think it's fair to compare Uribe to Richar. Richar hit .230 with 6 HR's in his first couple hundred major league at bats. His approach at the plate seemed better than Uribe's (I guess that's not saying much). Either way, Richar should get better, whereas Uribe's shown he probably will give us a performance in the 2005-2007 range - about 20 hrs, 70 rbi, .245 avg, <.300 obp, and good defense aside from the occasional mental lapses.

Taliesinrk
11-20-2007, 11:49 AM
I just don't understand how this is going to work out. We still have a monumental problem here (not even considering pitching). We have no lead-off hitter. As much as I want to, I CANNOT see both Fields and Crede on the roster on opening day due to the fact that LF MUST now be where our lead-off guy comes from. Every position is now filled 1-2 guys deep w/ the exception of CF and LF. But, there is no CF out there (Jones, Rowand, Mr. PR himeself), that we can sign that will leadoff. So one of two things must happen:

1. Deal Crede for pitching and have Pods lead-off again :o: - I like him, he's just not healthy.

2. Do not sign one of the three aforementioned CFs and somehow trade for a lead-off hitter to play CF (juan pierre???:o:) - or we're left with Jerry Owens.

This post is more of a question, please offer opinions now..

EDIT: Third option possibility:

Sign 1 of 3 listed CFs, and then trade Crede for a lead-off hitter to play LF.

spiffie
11-20-2007, 11:51 AM
I'm hoping that after we sign Hunter, the next move is to send Fields, Uribe & a pitching prospect to Tampa for Carl Crawford. Also sign Mike Timlin & the Japanese reliever & another starter. I'de be happy with that.
I assume in your scenario Fields, Uribe, and the prospect use the Jedi Mind Trick to convince the Rays to send Crawford to us for that ****ty package?

Slats
11-20-2007, 11:51 AM
Here's the way I see the trade.

Last week there was a party. It sucked because before the party was over... we ran out of beer. All that was left was a sixer of Stroh's. Ugh. This weeks party we decided to play things a little different. We passed around the hat and got some extra money for quality beer. We send our friend Kenny up to the liquor store to get a couple of cases. On the way out the door someone yells to him "Get some really good beer this time... We don't want a repeat of that last party".

About a half hour later, Kenny comes back with the beer. In his arms are two cases of Blatz. Everyone starts yelling at Kenny asking him what the hell he was thinking. Kenny looks shocked at the response. All he can say is "But.. but... but I saved us some money for the next time we need beer."

Life is too short to drink bad beer.

Taliesinrk
11-20-2007, 11:51 AM
I'm hoping that after we sign Hunter, the next move is to send Fields, Uribe & a pitching prospect to Tampa for Carl Crawford. Also sign Mike Timlin & the Japanese reliever & another starter. I'de be happy with that.

Crawford is now a lead-off hitter, period (then should I put a real period after this sentence?? - IDK)

Taliesinrk
11-20-2007, 11:52 AM
Here's the way I see the trade.

Last week there was a party. It sucked because before the party was over... we ran out of beer. All that was left was a sixer of Stroh's. Ugh. This weeks party we decided to play things a little different. We passed around the hat and got some extra money for quality beer. We send our friend Kenny up to the liquor store to get a couple of cases. On the way out the door someone yells to him "Get some really good beer this time... We don't want a repeat of that last party".

About a half hour later, Kenny comes back with the beer. In his arms are two cases of Blatz. Everyone strats yelling at Kenny asking him what the hell he was thinking. Kenny looks shocked at everyones responses. All he can say is "But.. but... but I saved us some money for the next time we need beer."

Life is too short to drink bad beer.

Not sure I agree, but great post

balke
11-20-2007, 11:53 AM
I don't think it's fair to compare Uribe to Richar. Richar hit .230 with 6 HR's in his first couple hundred major league at bats. His approach at the plate seemed better than Uribe's (I guess that's not saying much). Either way, Richar should get better, whereas Uribe's shown he probably will give us a performance in the 2005-2007 range - about 20 hrs, 70 rbi, .245 avg, <.300 obp, and good defense aside from the occasional mental lapses.



That's not the question. But, that's also not to say Richar is guaranteed anything. He wasn't Robbie Alomar out there last season. I like his play and think he'll grow, but that shouldn't mean the Sox have to risk starting him everday right now just because his approach is good. Play him when he's ready.

voodoochile
11-20-2007, 11:58 AM
I assume in your scenario Fields, Uribe, and the prospect use the Jedi Mind Trick to convince the Rays to send Crawford to us for that ****ty package?

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=5546&stc=1&d=1195585008

"You WILL trade me your superstars for crap!"

dickallen15
11-20-2007, 12:00 PM
I don't think it's fair to compare Uribe to Richar. Richar hit .230 with 6 HR's in his first couple hundred major league at bats. His approach at the plate seemed better than Uribe's (I guess that's not saying much). Either way, Richar should get better, whereas Uribe's shown he probably will give us a performance in the 2005-2007 range - about 20 hrs, 70 rbi, .245 avg, <.300 obp, and good defense aside from the occasional mental lapses.
Uribe was pretty impressive his first couple hundred major league at bats.

voodoochile
11-20-2007, 12:04 PM
Uribe was pretty impressive his first couple hundred major league at bats.

Why do people make arguments like this. One thing has NOTHING to do with the other.

Sometimes great players start out crappy and sometimes crappy/average players start out great. Just because you knew/saw a guy who one time did one of these things doesn't mean the new guy will do it too...:rolleyes:

eriqjaffe
11-20-2007, 12:04 PM
Uribe was pretty impressive his first couple hundred major league at bats....in Colorado.

2001 in Coors: .336/.356/.586
2001 on the road: .269/.298/.469

balke
11-20-2007, 12:10 PM
...in Colorado.

2001 in Coors: .336/.356/.586
2001 on the road: .269/.298/.469

That would be a good post if Richar didn't hit .230 which is a lot less than .269.

Richar's not that far off from Uribe if you wanna just look at last season (which I think looking at one season is a bad idea). But, when you talk about keeping Uribe you are also keeping Richar. He could still win that position at a later date, and then Uribe could be traded. In the meantime, you have much more depth in the IF, and a guy I think would play much better D at 2B.

WizardsofOzzie
11-20-2007, 12:21 PM
I'm hoping that after we sign Hunter, the next move is to send Fields, Uribe & a pitching prospect to Tampa for Carl Crawford. Also sign Mike Timlin & the Japanese reliever & another starter. I'de be happy with that.
Been spending too much time on this, have we?
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9351/ps2photozf5.jpg

Frater Perdurabo
11-20-2007, 12:21 PM
I'm really getting tired of quoting you on it.:thud:


Then don't. :)

You have to admire me for sticking with the bit, though. :tongue:

FedEx227
11-20-2007, 12:48 PM
Can't White Sox fans be content that eventually we won't have the entire 2005 team here? It's over guys get over it. Iguchi was dealt at a perfect time and it's unnecessary for us to go back after him. Richar looked bad in August .195/.290/.366 but picked it up in September .260/.294/.458.

The thing I like about him is he seems to understand gap-power and has the ability to really slug, he grabbed 9 doubles, 3 triples and 6 homeruns in just 187 at-bats. Give him Juan Uribes' 513 at-bats and Richar (at that pace) picks up 24 doubles (Uribe 18), 8 triples (Uribe 3) and 16 homeruns (Uribe 20). I'll take that. Plus I love the fact Richar only had a 2.06 K/BB (Uribe 3.29).

Richar 2007 compared to Iguchi's plays out pretty similar as well

Iguchi 2006 (last full year with Sox): 555 AB, 156 hits, 24 2B, 0 3B, 18 HR, 110 K, 59 BB (1.86 K/BB)
Richar 2007 pace with Iguchi's 555 AB: 555 AB, 127 hits, 26 2B, 8 3B, 17 HR, 97 K, 47 BB (2.06 K/BB)

Lip Man 1
11-20-2007, 12:50 PM
Here is the line in Tony Ginnetti's story in the Sun-Times that I was talking about earlier...just FYI:

"Former Sox Tadahito Iguchi is known to want to return to the team now that he is a free agent."

Lip

SBSoxFan
11-20-2007, 12:55 PM
"You WILL trade me your superstars for crap!"

I think it should be: "mmmmm. Trade me your superstars for crap, you will."

oeo
11-20-2007, 12:58 PM
Here is the line in Tony Ginnetti's story in the Sun-Times that I was talking about earlier...just FYI:

"Former Sox Tadahito Iguchi is known to want to return to the team now that he is a free agent."

Lip

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/657580,sox111907.article

What Lip is quoting is near the bottom of the article.

I wish he would have went more in detail. How is it 'known?' Is he just speculating? That sentence isn't giving me much.

Not that I know if I want to bring him back, but if he wants to be here, they might be able to get him at a cheap price for only a couple years. I'd be more inclined to have him platoon with Richar (working Richar in as the season goes on), than Uribe.

Fenway
11-20-2007, 02:17 PM
For some reason Francona told Theo not to bring Cabrera back after 2004. It does seem as though teams want to move him....

Why? No idea..:?:

oeo
11-20-2007, 02:25 PM
For some reason Francona told Theo not to bring Cabrera back after 2004. It does seem as though teams want to move him....

Why? No idea..:?:

And the Red Sox have been incapable to find a good SS since then...sounds like a good move.

Cabrera has been moved twice. Once in a contract year, the other right before a contract year. I'm not sure what you're getting at, because I've only heard good things about him in the clubhouse. Maybe he didn't fit the 'idiot' mentality.

Sockinchisox
11-20-2007, 02:29 PM
And the Red Sox have been incapable to find a good SS since then...sounds like a good move.

Cabrera has been moved twice. Once in a contract year, the other right before a contract year. I'm not sure what you're getting at, because I've only heard good things about him in the clubhouse. Maybe he didn't fit the 'idiot' mentality.

Rex Hudler was on Mac, Jurko, and Harry yesterday and said that he believes that Cabrera personifies the Red Sox "care-free" mentality.

spiffie
11-20-2007, 02:29 PM
And the Red Sox have been incapable to find a good SS since then...sounds like a good move.

Cabrera has been moved twice. Once in a contract year, the other right before a contract year. I'm not sure what you're getting at, because I've only heard good things about him in the clubhouse. Maybe he didn't fit the 'idiot' mentality.
He sounds like a good guy from the reports, but it is odd that he's going to be on his fourth team in five years.

balke
11-20-2007, 02:44 PM
He sounds like a good guy from the reports, but it is odd that he's going to be on his fourth team in five years.

Boston just wanted his D for the playoffs, and Montreal wanted money. The Angels wanted a good SS, but now they saw the chance to get a great young pitcher and possibly sign him before he hits free agency. The Sox wouldn't have made this move if they weren't pitching rich compared to a lot of teams and offensively weak.

thedudeabides
11-20-2007, 02:58 PM
Boston just wanted his D for the playoffs, and Montreal wanted money. The Angels wanted a good SS, but now they saw the chance to get a great young pitcher and possibly sign him before he hits free agency. The Sox wouldn't have made this move if they weren't pitching rich compared to a lot of teams and offensively weak.

I really don't see the Sox as "pitching rich". Not to say I'm against the trade, but as it stands we have a bad bullpen and a suspect rotation. The Angels were already pitching rich with a subpar offense. I'm sure there will be more moves by both teams, but it is a bit puzzling at this point.

balke
11-20-2007, 03:09 PM
I really don't see the Sox as "pitching rich". Not to say I'm against the trade, but as it stands we have a bad bullpen and a suspect rotation. The Angels were already pitching rich with a subpar offense. I'm sure there will be more moves by both teams, but it is a bit puzzling at this point.

Notice the "compared to a lot of other teams". Contreras, Buehrle, Vazquez, Danks, and Floyd with Broadway, Gio, and Egbert looking good. They just drafted another pitcher with their first draft pick. It was also pretty apparent that Garland will be gone next season for the money he wants, the money the Sox spent on Buehrle, and the performance of Vazquez.

Bullpen is another story, but still starting pitching wise they are way better off than a lot of teams. They still have the option to pick up a starter like Clement, Colon, Rusch, Benson.

Tragg
11-20-2007, 03:11 PM
The Sox wouldn't have made this move if they weren't pitching rich compared to a lot of teams and offensively weak.
But Cabrera's not a good offensive player.
He's decent offensively for a SS.

We traded probably our best hitter in the low minors for Richar. I hope we give him a chance.

balke
11-20-2007, 03:13 PM
But Cabrera's not a good offensive player.

They instantly upgraded the SS position with about .065 pts of batting avg. and 19 stolen bases. How many White Sox hit above .300 last season? How many hit above .280?

Sargeant79
11-20-2007, 03:13 PM
But Cabrera's not a good offensive player.

Wow.

As someone else pointed out, he would have by far led the team in batting average last year. He's fast, and fills a need in the batting order. And he does this while upgrading the defense up the middle at the same time.

FedEx227
11-20-2007, 03:15 PM
Wow.

As someone else pointed out, he would have by far led the team in batting average last year. He's fast, and fills a need in the batting order. And he does this while upgrading the defense up the middle at the same time.

He'll never listen, don't waste your time. I proved in the first post that he instantly on last years team is far and away their best offensive player. Yeah, tallest midget most likely, still an upgrade none-the-less.

thedudeabides
11-20-2007, 03:16 PM
Notice the "compared to a lot of other teams". Contreras, Buehrle, Vazquez, Danks, and Floyd with Broadway, Gio, and Egbert looking good. They just drafted another pitcher with their first draft pick. It was also pretty apparent that Garland will be gone next season for the money he wants, the money the Sox spent on Buehrle, and the performance of Vazquez.

Bullpen is another story, but still starting pitching wise they are way better off than a lot of teams. They still have the option to pick up a starter like Clement, Colon, Rusch, Benson.

There is good young talent, but much of it is unproven, and that's why I said as it stands we have a suspect rotation. I am expecting upgrades in the bullpen and I hope your right about bringing in a veteran starter.

Tragg
11-20-2007, 03:16 PM
Wow.

As someone else pointed out, he would have by far led the team in batting average last year. He's fast, and fills a need in the batting order. And he does this while upgrading the defense up the middle at the same time.

He has a .320 career OBP and has been above .330 once in the last 5 seasons. If that's the top offensive player, then you can count on the Sox again sporting the league's worst offense.

balke
11-20-2007, 03:18 PM
He has a .320 career OBP. If that's the top offensive player, then you can count on the Sox again sporting the league's worst offense.

Nobody called him the top offensive player on the team, but he's roughly 4x more valuable offensively than Uribe or Richar or Cintron.

russ99
11-20-2007, 03:21 PM
Nobody called him the top offensive player on the team, but he's roughly 4x more valuable offensively than Uribe or Richar or Cintron.

Agree, though Richar could grow into an Cabrera-type player

See my sig for what I feel on the subject of the Sox offense in '07 and '08 :D:

Tragg
11-20-2007, 03:25 PM
Nobody called him the top offensive player on the team, but he's roughly 4x more valuable offensively than Uribe or Richar or Cintron.
Is Cinton on this team? I hope not.

Cabrera's a good player. But the Sox need an A list hitter and/or a legitimate leadoff hitter. As best I can tell, there is none of the above available in FA (maybe Jones, but I dont' think we're interested), so that means trade. We used our major trading chit.

Richar came to the Sox with some decent power numbers and some plate patience. Not suprisingly, his patience fell when he joined this major league club. But his power numbers were pretty god. He got zip in lineup protection and was mired between Uribe and Owens in the order. And he played for only 2 months. He had no problems defensively and we traded a talent for him. I hope we play him.

spiffie
11-20-2007, 03:27 PM
Is Cinton on this team? I hope not.

Richar came to the Sox with some decent power numbers and some plate patience. Not suprisingly, his patience fell when he joined this major league club. But his power numbers were pretty god. He got zip in lineup protection and was mired between Uribe and Owens in the order. And he played for only 2 months. He had no problems defensively and we traded a talent for him. I hope we play him.
I hear Ozzie slapped him twice for every pitch he didn't swing at.

KRS1
11-20-2007, 03:27 PM
He has a .320 career OBP and has been above .330 once in the last 5 seasons. If that's the top offensive player, then you can count on the Sox again sporting the league's worst offense.

ACTUALLY, his OBP has been above .330 three times in the last five seasons. 2003= .347, 2006= .335, 2007= .345.

balke
11-20-2007, 03:29 PM
Is Cinton on this team? I hope not.

Richar came to the Sox with some decent power numbers and some plate patience. Not suprisingly, his patience fell when he joined this major league club. But his power numbers were pretty god. He got zip in lineup protection and was mired between Uribe and Owens in the order. And he played for only 2 months. He had no problems defensively and we traded a talent for him. I hope we play him.

I don't have any doubt they will play him. I don't think they are obligated to start him right out of the gates at SS over Cabrera (that seems like what you are suggesting). He's got plenty of time to learn, and one of the best guys at the position to learn from. Although I personally don't know if he will play SS ever. He mainly was a 2Bman in the minors.

Tragg
11-20-2007, 03:33 PM
ACTUALLY, his OBP has been above .330 three times in the last five seasons. 2003= .347, 2006= .335, 2007= .345.
That's true, my mistake...I looked at the last 5 lines and 3 of them were for 1 year (played for different teams). Anyway, those OBPs are fine for a SS, but for a 2 hole hitter? Guillen didn't like Iguchi at .340-.350 with some power in the 2 hole (demoted him for Erstad), so I'm not sure what he's looking for.
I guess my point is that some of our outfielders have similar numbers to Cabrera (actually not as good), which means they are much further below the mean. It seems to be a greater need. Another year of Jerry Owens more than offsets the improvement Cabrera brings over Uribe.

Lillian
11-20-2007, 05:22 PM
I said this in an earlier post in this thread, but I reiterate:
Juan Uribe does not belong anywhere in this lineup!!!!!!
We did not give up Jon Garland to get one more bat of the quality that Cabrera offers. If that is all we were seeking, then we should have just kept Uribe at SS, and signed a decent hitting second baseman.

We need more speed, and higher on base percentage players.
For those of you who are suggesting that Richar's numbers weren't any better than Uribe's, my response is that he will have to improve, or should not play. We may have to use Ozuna, or bring in Iguchi, or someone else.
But Uribe has had his chances, and we all should move on.

Tragg
11-20-2007, 05:41 PM
I don't have any doubt they will play him. I don't think they are obligated to start him right out of the gates at SS over Cabrera (that seems like what you are suggesting). He's got plenty of time to learn, and one of the best guys at the position to learn from. Although I personally don't know if he will play SS ever. He mainly was a 2Bman in the minors.
I was talking about him at 2b not short. Obviously Cabrera plays - he's far and away the best middle infielder we have. My Richar comments were in re someone else's post.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-20-2007, 07:07 PM
I admit I haven't read the 700+ posts on this topic, but I'm guessing the "pitching and defense" crowd is tying itself into knots trying to figure out whether they're for or against this trade.
:wink:

"It's pitching AND defense."

"But defense is pitching."

"Pitching is nothing without defense."

"Defense without pitching is worthless."

"No, pitching without defense is worthless."

and so on and so on...

:roflmao:

palehosepub
11-20-2007, 07:14 PM
I admit I haven't read the 700+ posts on this topic, but I'm guessing the "pitching and defense" crowd is tying itself into knots trying to figure out whether they're for or against this trade.
:wink:

"It's pitching AND defense."

"But defense is pitching."

"Pitching is nothing without defense."

"Defense without pitching is worthless."

"No, pitching without defense is worthless."

and so on and so on...

:roflmao:






After the OC for Garland trade today KW said it was the first move of many. I really don't mind the trade too much because I believe KW knows what he is doing. I think trading Konerko would make a lot of sense. My idea is trade PK to the Dodgers for Jonathon Bronxtan (Right hander who racks up many innings and had a sub 3 ERA) and Matt Kemp or James Loney.Then I have heard the Sox want to trade Crede to the Phils for two prospects. Trade one of those prospects and throw in one from our system and get Crisp from the BoSox. Sign Hunter. Then sign either Randy Wolf or Bartolo Colon for the back of the rotation. Dump Uribe for some dough and a prospect. I dought KW wil sign Colon/ Wolf but I think its good because they still got game but are cheap because of injuries.

LF Crisp S
SS Cabrera R
DHThome L
CF Hunter R
1B Dye R
C Pierzynski L
3B Fields R
RF Kemp/Loney R/L
2B Richar L

SP Buerhle,Vasquez,Contreras,Colon/Wolf, Gonzalez/Danks/ Egbert/ Broadway

LR Broadway/ Gonzo
MR Sisco, Macdougal or Wasserman (Ozzie's boy) or Logan or Day
SU Bronxtan, Thortan
CP Jenks

I know I lack a lot of bullpen help but the Sox are deep in underachieving pitchers and Dewon Day has looked good in fall ball. I know for this to work out we would need bullpen pitchers to step up but Minnesota Twins do it everywhere whether its Lew Ford, Jason Tyner, Dennys Reyes or Pat Neshek someone always steps up.

Brian26
11-20-2007, 07:15 PM
For some reason Francona told Theo not to bring Cabrera back after 2004. It does seem as though teams want to move him....

Why? No idea..:?:

Classic Fenway. Classic.

WizardsofOzzie
11-20-2007, 07:22 PM
After the OC for Garland trade today KW said it was the first move of many. I really don't mind the trade too much because I believe KW knows what he is doing. I think trading Konerko would make a lot of sense. My idea is trade PK to the Dodgers for Jonathon Bronxtan (Right hander who racks up many innings and had a sub 3 ERA) and Matt Kemp or James Loney.Then I have heard the Sox want to trade Crede to the Phils for two prospects. Trade one of those prospects and throw in one from our system and get Crisp from the BoSox. Sign Hunter. Then sign either Randy Wolf or Bartolo Colon for the back of the rotation. Dump Uribe for some dough and a prospect. I dought KW wil sign Colon/ Wolf but I think its good because they still got game but are cheap because of injuries.

LF Crisp S
SS Cabrera R
DHThome L
CF Hunter R
1B Dye R
C Pierzynski L
3B Fields R
RF Kemp/Loney R/L
2B Richar L

SP Buerhle,Vasquez,Contreras,Colon/Wolf, Gonzalez/Danks/ Egbert/ Broadway

LR Broadway/ Gonzo
MR Sisco, Macdougal or Wasserman (Ozzie's boy) or Logan or Day
SU Bronxtan, Thortan
CP Jenks

I know I lack a lot of bullpen help but the Sox are deep in underachieving pitchers and Dewon Day has looked good in fall ball. I know for this to work out we would need bullpen pitchers to step up but Minnesota Twins do it everywhere whether its Lew Ford, Jason Tyner, Dennys Reyes or Pat Neshek someone always steps up.

Dye at first? Interesting thought

Jurr
11-20-2007, 07:24 PM
I believe that having Torii Hunter and Orlando Cabrera up the middle may honestly drop the team ERA a pretty decent amount.

One part that's overlooked during "that season" was the fact that the pitchers constantly talked about pitching free because they knew the defense had their back. I think it all goes hand in hand-definitely not a "chicken or the egg" thing.

What's very scary to me is the starting pitching issue. SP's are becoming baseball's version of the starting QB. There's just not a whole lot of great arms out there for some reason. Kudos to Anaheim for loading up on 'em.

palehosepub
11-20-2007, 07:25 PM
Dye at first? Interesting thought


Dye was suppose to play first when the Sox were supposedly were going to trade Konerko in July and he has played first before.

Brian26
11-20-2007, 07:26 PM
I believe that having Torii Hunter and Orlando Cabrera up the middle may honestly drop the team ERA a pretty decent amount.

I think the dumping of Bukvich will help drop the team ERA a decent amount.

Brian26
11-20-2007, 07:27 PM
Dye was suppose to play first when the Sox were supposedly were going to trade Konerko in July and he has played first before.

Dye has played shortstop before, and Timo Perez has played first. Collectively, that spelled a World Series title.

palehosepub
11-20-2007, 07:30 PM
Any thing heard about Hunter? Last I heard he was eating dinner with Hicks (Rangers owner) and there was no deal yet on the table. Hunter said he will make his decision next week after he talks about it with his family on Thanksgiving. On account of his family being from Texas I expect Texas to be the front runner with the Sox at number two. :(: If KW can't get Hunter I hope sincerely they don't get Johnny Damon.

Jurr
11-20-2007, 07:35 PM
I think the dumping of Bukvich will help drop the team ERA a decent amount.
:rolling:Oh, this guy...unbelievable. Loving it.

Hitmen77
11-20-2007, 07:54 PM
My apologies if this was already brought up, but an interesting aside in this trade is that, while Garland and Cabrera are both free agents after '08, Garland is only a Type B FA while Cabrera is a Type A FA.

Losing a Type A FA nets a team better compensation picks. Not that I'm suggesting the Sox should necessarily let OC walk.

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2007/11/cabrera-a-barga.html

Lillian
11-20-2007, 07:59 PM
Indulge me one more final rant on Uribe, please.
Let me preface this by reminding anyone, who is interested, that I was probably more excited about this guy's potential than anyone, when he first came over to the Sox. Unfortunately, it has all been downhill ever since his great Spring of 2004. I can't ever remember a Sox player who has underachieved as much as he has.

I was so disgusted with him this year that I was actually rooting for him to do so poorly that there would not be any question as to the merit of picking up the option for next year. When he began to put on a little bit of a late season surge, I lamented that it just might have ended up being enough to give management reason to reconsider that option. Now that he has been replaced, I'm not at all happy about the prospect of his playing anywhere on this team.

Just for the record, here are some of his amazingly pathetic stats from last season: As late as Sept. 6 he was hitting .219 with a .272 OBP and a .337 Slugging Percentage. Sure he ended up with 20 homers again, but only after picking up half of them in the last two months. He still finished with only 40 extra base hits for the whole year!!
He stole 1 base and was caught 9 times!!
He was told to show up in shape for Spring Training, again, and again he played the whole season overweight and out of shape.

After 6 full seasons in the Majors, and with no injuries to explain his poor performance, it is time to give up on him. Anyone who would still want this guy on the field, either doesn't watch the games, or has a very peculiar method of evaluating players. He is just not good enough to be on any team serious about contending. It is such a shame that he has wasted all of that talent, as well as this team's money. For my money, they can't get him out of town fast enough. I'd rather see any young player, with desire, be given an opportunity to get his playing time.

You can probably guess how thrilled I am that we will have someone at SS this year, who will not frustrate us to the point of total exasperation.

palehosepub
11-20-2007, 08:07 PM
Indulge me one more final rant on Uribe, please.
Let me preface this by reminding anyone, who is interested, that I was probably more excited about this guy's potential than anyone, when he first came over to the Sox. Unfortunately, it has all been downhill ever since his great Spring of 2004. I can't ever remember a Sox player who has underachieved as much as he has.

I was so disgusted with him this year that I was actually rooting for him to do so poorly that there would not be any question as to the merit of picking up the option for next year. When he began to put on a little bit of a late season surge, I lamented that it just might have ended up being enough to give management reason to reconsider that option. Now that he has been replaced, I'm not at all happy about the prospect of his playing anywhere on this team.

Just for the record, here are some of his amazingly pathetic stats from last season: As late as Sept. 6 he was hitting .219 with a .272 OBP and a .337 Slugging Percentage. Sure he ended up with 20 homers again, but only after picking up half of them in the last two months. He still finished with only 40 extra base hits for the whole year!!
He stole 1 base and was caught 9 times!!
He was told to show up in shape for Spring Training, again, and again he played the whole season overweight and out of shape.

After 6 full seasons in the Majors, and with no injuries to explain his poor performance, it is time to give up on him. Anyone who would still want this guy on the field, either doesn't watch the games, or has a very peculiar method of evaluating players. He is just not good enough to be on any team serious about contending. It is such a shame that he has wasted all of that talent, as well as this team's money. For my money, they can't get him out of town fast enough. I'd rather see any young player, with desire, be given an opportunity to get his playing time.

You can probably guess how thrilled I am that we will have someone at SS this year, who will not frustrate us to the point of total exasperation.


Thank you that post made me feel better about myself.

fusillirob1983
11-20-2007, 08:12 PM
Indulge me one more final rant on Uribe, please.
Let me preface this by reminding anyone, who is interested, that I was probably more excited about this guy's potential than anyone, when he first came over to the Sox. Unfortunately, it has all been downhill ever since his great Spring of 2004. I can't ever remember a Sox player who has underachieved as much as he has.

I was so disgusted with him this year that I was actually rooting for him to do so poorly that there would not be any question as to the merit of picking up the option for next year. When he began to put on a little bit of a late season surge, I lamented that it just might have ended up being enough to give management reason to reconsider that option. Now that he has been replaced, I'm not at all happy about the prospect of his playing anywhere on this team.

Just for the record, here are some of his amazingly pathetic stats from last season: As late as Sept. 6 he was hitting .219 with a .272 OBP and a .337 Slugging Percentage. Sure he ended up with 20 homers again, but only after picking up half of them in the last two months. He still finished with only 40 extra base hits for the whole year!!
He stole 1 base and was caught 9 times!!
He was told to show up in shape for Spring Training, again, and again he played the whole season overweight and out of shape.

After 6 full seasons in the Majors, and with no injuries to explain his poor performance, it is time to give up on him. Anyone who would still want this guy on the field, either doesn't watch the games, or has a very peculiar method of evaluating players. He is just not good enough to be on any team serious about contending. It is such a shame that he has wasted all of that talent, as well as this team's money. For my money, they can't get him out of town fast enough. I'd rather see any young player, with desire, be given an opportunity to get his playing time.

You can probably guess how thrilled I am that we will have someone at SS this year, who will not frustrate us to the point of total exasperation.

I hope no general managers read this post. None of them will want Uribe.

A couple notes for clarification:
Note 1: I'm not criticizing your post at all and I'm in full agreement with you. You just spilled out all the reasons why a team shouldn't want Uribe.
Note 2: For anyone else, I'm fully aware that GMs don't make decisions based on message board posts.

Grzegorz
11-20-2007, 08:26 PM
I believe that having Torii Hunter and Orlando Cabrera up the middle may honestly drop the team ERA a pretty decent amount.

Please define "a pretty decent amount".

Lip Man 1
11-20-2007, 08:27 PM
Hunter was quoted in a Scott Merkin story now at White Sox.com as saying the trade for Cabrera was "an excellent move."

Then lauded him for being a guy who "hits between .290 and .330 and is a Gold Glover."

For what that may be worth.

Lip

Jerome
11-20-2007, 10:20 PM
My first reaction to the trade was probably like everyone else's, jumping off a building and rejecting my white sox fandom forever. But the more I thought about it, I think it won't work out that badly for the Sox.

Even though he was our best pitcher over the last 3 years, it's not like we were giving away Cy Young here. He was inconsisent at times. And due for a biiig contract extension that the Sox weren't going to give him.

I don't think Cabrera is as good as his numbers indicated last year but he has always been a solid big league SS. And I don't think I could stomach another year of Uribe. Better to take a chance on decent young pitching than an SS we know is bad I guess. Hopefully Contreras gets it together next year. If he doesn't this trade will probably hurt us no matter how good Cabrera is, unless Danks or Floyd come through with a big year.

Now I hope KW can get the other Cabrera

palehosepub
11-20-2007, 10:35 PM
After the OC for Garland trade today KW said it was the first move of many. I really don't mind the trade too much because I believe KW knows what he is doing. I think trading Konerko would make a lot of sense. My idea is trade PK to the Dodgers for Jonathon Bronxtan (Right hander who racks up many innings and had a sub 3 ERA) and Matt Kemp or James Loney.Then I have heard the Sox want to trade Crede to the Phils for two prospects. Trade one of those prospects and throw in one from our system and get Crisp from the BoSox. Sign Hunter. Then sign either Randy Wolf or Bartolo Colon for the back of the rotation. Dump Uribe for some dough and a prospect. I dought KW wil sign Colon/ Wolf but I think its good because they still got game but are cheap because of injuries.

LF Crisp S
SS Cabrera R
DHThome L
CF Hunter R
1B/RF Dye R
C Pierzynski L
3B Fields R
RF/1B Kemp/Loney R/L
2B Richar L

SP Buerhle,Vasquez,Contreras,Colon/Wolf, Gonzalez/Danks/ Egbert/ Broadway

LR Broadway/ Gonzo
MR Sisco, Macdougal or Wasserman (Ozzie's boy) or Logan or Day
SU Bronxtan, Thortan
CP Jenks

I know I lack a lot of bullpen help but the Sox are deep in underachieving pitchers and Dewon Day has looked good in fall ball. I know for this to work out we would need bullpen pitchers to step up but Minnesota Twins do it everywhere whether its Lew Ford, Jason Tyner, Dennys Reyes or Pat Neshek someone always steps up.

Fenway
11-21-2007, 08:33 AM
Classic Fenway. Classic.

Well it is a fact.
One Boston writer thinks he will show up on Mitchell's steroid list next month

thedudeabides
11-21-2007, 08:39 AM
Well it is a fact.
One Boston writer thinks he will show up on Mitchell's steroid list next month

That is one name on the list that would surprise me. That is the only valid reason I could see for Boston letting him go. Do you have a link to this speculation?

On the other hand, If they didn't win the series this year, I think they still would have been looking at this as one of there biggest mistakes, but fortunately for them winning cures all.

balke
11-21-2007, 08:41 AM
Didn't they still have Hanley Ramirez at the time they let him go?

Fenway
11-21-2007, 08:43 AM
That is one name on the list that would surprise me. That is the only valid reason I could see for Boston letting him go. Do you have a link to this speculation?

On the other hand, If they didn't win the series this year, I think they still would have been looking at this as one of there biggest mistakes, but fortunately for them winning cures all.

Garry Callahan said it on WEEI yesterday.

Something was amiss with him in Boston when you figure he played very well at the end of 2004. Maybe the Expos unloaded him as a salary dump because they didn't get much for him in that 3 way deal involving Nomar.

thedudeabides
11-21-2007, 08:45 AM
Didn't they still have Hanley Ramirez at the time they let him go?

Yes, but they signed Renteria that offseason, and we all know how that turned out.

Cabrera would seem an odd case for steroids because his numbers have gotten better the last couple of years.

balke
11-21-2007, 08:47 AM
Garry Callahan said it on WEEI yesterday.

Something was amiss with him in Boston when you figure he played very well at the end of 2004. Maybe the Expos unloaded him as a salary dump because they didn't get much for him in that 3 way deal involving Nomar.

Sounds like a load to me. If its true, then hopefully Kenny waits to sign him long term, and gets a break on his salary. It doesn't really look like its affected his stat line in his career if he has. The only thing that really fluctuated was avg. and that's pretty common for any baseball player.

Fenway
11-21-2007, 08:48 AM
Yes, but they signed Renteria that offseason, and we all know how that turned out.

Cabrera would seem an odd case for steroids because his numbers have gotten better the last couple of years.

and Boston will be giving Detroit most of Renteria's salary this year.

balke
11-21-2007, 08:50 AM
Yes, but they signed Renteria that offseason, and we all know how that turned out.

Cabrera would seem an odd case for steroids because his numbers have gotten better the last couple of years.

At that time Renteria was looking like a big upgrade offensively, I figured that's why they went after him. Those teams out East would rather have the offense than the D.

balke
11-21-2007, 08:54 AM
and Boston will be giving Detroit most of Renteria's salary this year.

Wow, where have I been? I didn't even see they got Renteria. Jerks. Kenny's got a long way to go to catch up to Detroit at this point.

eriqjaffe
11-21-2007, 08:54 AM
Kenny's got a long way to go to keep ahead of Kansas City at this point.Sadly, I fear I have fixed that for you.

Frontman
11-21-2007, 08:57 AM
Glad to see KW making moves. Before I see the final product to take the field in 2008, I'll hold off judgement. I think its amazing that we have 2 shortstops and in talking about Uribe, KW pretty much beat him down. Doesn't that make it a tad harder to trade him?

Thanks Jon for 2005, and all the best down the road.

Fenway
11-21-2007, 08:57 AM
Wow, where have I been? I didn't even see they got Renteria. Jerks. Kenny's got a long way to go to catch up to Detroit at this point.

I have a feeling Detroit will regret that move....Renteria may be a NL only type of player......he certainly was horrific in Boston. Of course Lugo is worse.....Theo is rumored of looking at Eckstein who Dan Duquette foolishly waived to protect the infamous Izzy Alcantara

3EUr6xsp3mg

The Immigrant
11-21-2007, 09:00 AM
I have a feeling Detroit will regret that move....Renteria may be a NL only type of player......he certainly was horrific in Boston. Of course Lugo is worse.....

Yeah, good thing "Tito" made sure they got rid of Cabrera after 2004. :rolleyes:

thomas35forever
11-21-2007, 09:00 AM
Here's my new lineup for '08:

SS- Cabrera
LF - Fields
DH - Thome
1B - Konerko
RF - Dye
CF - Hunter
3B - Crede
C - Pierzynski
2B - Richar

The rotation will be:

SP - Buehrle
SP - Vazquez
SP - Contreras
SP - Danks
SP - Broadway

balke
11-21-2007, 09:00 AM
I have a feeling Detroit will regret that move....Renteria may be a NL only type of player......he certainly was horrific in Boston. Of course Lugo is worse.....

That was like his worst year, and its about what I expect out of Cabrera this season. Just without the errors. People were still high on Renteria that season because his 03' season was insane.

voodoochile
11-21-2007, 09:32 AM
After the OC for Garland trade today KW said it was the first move of many. I really don't mind the trade too much because I believe KW knows what he is doing. I think trading Konerko would make a lot of sense. My idea is trade PK to the Dodgers for Jonathon Bronxtan (Right hander who racks up many innings and had a sub 3 ERA) and Matt Kemp or James Loney.Then I have heard the Sox want to trade Crede to the Phils for two prospects. Trade one of those prospects and throw in one from our system and get Crisp from the BoSox. Sign Hunter. Then sign either Randy Wolf or Bartolo Colon for the back of the rotation. Dump Uribe for some dough and a prospect. I dought KW wil sign Colon/ Wolf but I think its good because they still got game but are cheap because of injuries.

LF Crisp S
SS Cabrera R
DHThome L
CF Hunter R
1B/RF Dye R
C Pierzynski L
3B Fields R
RF/1B Kemp/Loney R/L
2B Richar L

SP Buerhle,Vasquez,Contreras,Colon/Wolf, Gonzalez/Danks/ Egbert/ Broadway

LR Broadway/ Gonzo
MR Sisco, Macdougal or Wasserman (Ozzie's boy) or Logan or Day
SU Bronxtan, Thortan
CP Jenks

I know I lack a lot of bullpen help but the Sox are deep in underachieving pitchers and Dewon Day has looked good in fall ball. I know for this to work out we would need bullpen pitchers to step up but Minnesota Twins do it everywhere whether its Lew Ford, Jason Tyner, Dennys Reyes or Pat Neshek someone always steps up.

Okay, that's the 4th time you've posted the exact same post. We don't allow people to post duplicates just to show off how smart they think they are. If people want to reply to your first post they will. Please stop posting duplicates.
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1726889#post1726889

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1725946#post1725946

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1725927#post1725927

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1727064#post1727064

soxinem1
11-21-2007, 10:26 AM
Here's my new lineup for '08:

SS- Cabrera
LF - Fields
DH - Thome
1B - Konerko
RF - Dye
CF - Hunter
3B - Crede
C - Pierzynski
2B - Richar

The rotation will be:

SP - Buehrle
SP - Vazquez
SP - Contreras
SP - Danks
SP - Broadway

I hate to say it, but that lineup and rotation is doomed, especially the rotation for 2008.

I do not see Cabrera leading off at anytime for the 2008 White Sox. He is the perfect #2 hitter.

Having Fields bat second and play LF will not work at this stage, unless you want a #2 hitter with 150+ K's, followed by Thome with his usual 140+ K's.

Owens in LF leading off and Fields at 3B batting seventh (maybe sixth if the Sox do not get Hunter or Rowand for CF) is more likely, if Rowand or Hunter are signed. I'd have Richar lead off before Cabrera.

If Hunter does indeed come here, he should bat third, and Thome drop to 5 or 6.

As much as I like Crede, I think KW is burning up the airways to trade him and may even throw in some cash if he gets a genuine major leaguer with comparable salary in return.

Then banking on Danks and Broadway to throw at last 360 IP (no Floyd in your plans??) is not realistic. I just do not see Broadway's fastball holding up in a regular rotation spot, and he has had some real control issues as a pro so far. A good start on ten days rest against KC in September does not make a starter.

They would need to at least bring in another starter to ST like they did with Loaiza in 2003.

thomas35forever
11-21-2007, 10:56 AM
I hate to say it, but that lineup and rotation is doomed, especially the rotation for 2008.

I do not see Cabrera leading off at anytime for the 2008 White Sox. He is the perfect #2 hitter.

Having Fields bat second and play LF will not work at this stage, unless you want a #2 hitter with 150+ K's, followed by Thome with his usual 140+ K's.

Owens in LF leading off and Fields at 3B batting seventh (maybe sixth if the Sox do not get Hunter or Rowand for CF) is more likely, if Rowand or Hunter are signed. I'd have Richar lead off before Cabrera.

If Hunter does indeed come here, he should bat third, and Thome drop to 5 or 6.

As much as I like Crede, I think KW is burning up the airways to trade him and may even throw in some cash if he gets a genuine major leaguer with comparable salary in return.

Then banking on Danks and Broadway to throw at last 360 IP (no Floyd in your plans??) is not realistic. I just do not see Broadway's fastball holding up in a regular rotation spot, and he has had some real control issues as a pro so far. A good start on ten days rest against KC in September does not make a starter.

They would need to at least bring in another starter to ST like they did with Loaiza in 2003.
If you will permit to explain myself, I know Cabrera is most likely our No. 2 hitter. However, I do not want to see Jerry Owens in this lineup on Opening Day. I believe he'll be a quality player someday, but we're trying to win now. This year is probably our last chance to prove '05 wasn't a fluke. I have both Crede and Fields in there because I still believe they'll both be with us next year. Until Crede gets moved, that's how I see things.

As far as the rotation goes, I don't have Colon in the rotation yet because I'm sure KW is well aware of his health issues. I'm not yet convinced that Floyd is a quality pitcher. I have him either pitching in long relief or being sent to the minors outright. Maybe I love Broadway because of the one quality start he gave us in September, but you're right. He does have control issues now that I think about it, but I feel confident that he and Coop will work on that in ST.

Again, it's only November, so what do I know what's going to happen?

soxwon
11-21-2007, 11:17 AM
That was like his worst year, and its about what I expect out of Cabrera this season. Just without the errors. People were still high on Renteria that season because his 03' season was insane.

a friend from Boston (not otis), absolutely hated edgar, he called him Rentawreck. He's overated-WAY!!!!

btrain929
11-21-2007, 11:18 AM
I think the dumping of Bukvich will help drop the team ERA a decent amount.

:rolling:

Another scary thought is the Sox giving Dewon Day another shot in the bullpen because of his impressive AFL performance. Has he really turned the corner? Or just dominated younger and less skilled players than himself, which won't translate into the majors?

rowand33
11-21-2007, 11:34 AM
a friend from Boston (not otis), absolutely hated edgar, he called him Rentawreck. He's overated-WAY!!!!

This board would have been very happy if we had traded for him a month ago.

He was great in Atlanta, he's coming off a season where he hit .332/.390/.470, he's a .291 career hitter, and his error problems seem to have be caused by Fenway.

He's a quality player.

I'd rather have Cabrera, but I don't think anybody would have been upset if we acquired Renteria (any rational person).

The Tigers are tough.

Sockinchisox
11-21-2007, 12:22 PM
Just wanted to point this out, the Yankees if Pettite doesn't come back are planning to go with 2 proven starters and 3 rookies.

Wang, Mussina, Hughes, Chamberlain, and Kennedy.

Granted we don't have the offense they do but they are in pretty much the same situation.

btrain929
11-21-2007, 12:39 PM
Just wanted to point this out, the Yankees if Pettite doesn't come back are planning to go with 2 proven starters and 3 rookies.

Wang, Mussina, Hughes, Chamberlain, and Kennedy.

Granted we don't have the offense they do but they are in pretty much the same situation.

Hughes Chamberlain Kennedy >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Danks Floyd Broadway/Gio/Egbert

jabrch
11-21-2007, 01:25 PM
Hughes Chamberlain Kennedy >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Danks Floyd Broadway/Gio/Egbert


In theory

But as Lip said, I for every guy who pans out, I can list 3 or 4 (or more) who didn't. That holds true for the Yankees also. Hughes had 13 starts and a 4.50 ERA. Chamberlain has ZERO starts and Kennedy had only 3.

Put it this way, if that's the rotation they have (Mussina coming off his terrible season, Wang and those 3), I don't think they'd be significantly better (if at all) than Mark, Javy, Jose, Danks and TBD.