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Luke
11-19-2007, 11:59 AM
Did any one else hear Levine report that Garland has been sent to to LAA for Cabrera?

jsg-07
11-19-2007, 12:01 PM
Did any one else hear Levine report that Garland has been sent to to LAA for Cabrera?

My brother just e mailed me the same thing. Anyone have any confirmation??

soltrain21
11-19-2007, 12:02 PM
This could become epic...

giganticHead
11-19-2007, 12:03 PM
It's on www.chicagosports.com

CHISOXFAN13
11-19-2007, 12:03 PM
Yep. Heard it. They are now talking about it on ESPN 1000.

SOXPHILE
11-19-2007, 12:03 PM
Bruce Levine ? I'd take that with report a gigantic handfull of salt.


Edit: Their reporting it on the Score now too.

Luke
11-19-2007, 12:04 PM
Bruce Levine ? I'd take that with report a gigantic handfull of salt.

Exactly. That's why I posted it in WTS

havelj
11-19-2007, 12:04 PM
Bruce Levine says Garland to Angels for Orlando Cabrera.

cbrownson13
11-19-2007, 12:04 PM
My dad just called and said he heard the same thing...Garland for Cabrera

DSpivack
11-19-2007, 12:05 PM
Cabrera and cash? That's it? No young guys thrown in that the Angels have a lot of? I mean, I like getting a SS but Cabrera is nothing more than good.

CHISOXFAN13
11-19-2007, 12:06 PM
Hunter will be next...

rdivaldi
11-19-2007, 12:06 PM
Just heard that too...

CashMan
11-19-2007, 12:07 PM
I am done as a Sox fan.

rdivaldi
11-19-2007, 12:07 PM
I am done as a Sox fan.

:whiner:

Blueprint1
11-19-2007, 12:08 PM
we traded Garland for a 32 year old short stop. Bad trade.

CashMan
11-19-2007, 12:09 PM
:whiner:

ok, maybe 1 out of 5 days i will be a sox fan. I still like Mark Buehrle.

hi im skot
11-19-2007, 12:09 PM
Pitching is overrated anyway.

Dumb move.

JRIG
11-19-2007, 12:09 PM
we traded Garland for a 32 year old short stop. Bad trade.

He'll be 33 in '08. With zero starting pitching on the free agent market I'm shocked this is the best the Sox could do.

balke
11-19-2007, 12:09 PM
Somehow I always thought Kenny would end up shoveling Cabrera on the Sox. I hate this move, the guy is 33 years old. At least he's a leadoff hitter... I guess.

Makes me think the Sox won't get Hunter, and the pitching is going to suck next season.

The Immigrant
11-19-2007, 12:10 PM
This has the makings of an epic thread.

soltrain21
11-19-2007, 12:10 PM
I am done as a Sox fan.


Why? We get a shortstop who hit .300 last year and swiped 20 bags. Garland was gone after this year anyway. We are also getting cash considerations.

Garland is a good pitcher - Cabrera is a good SS.

churlish
11-19-2007, 12:10 PM
Cabrera is a very good ballplayer. He has speed and is a great contact hitter. We just got a big upgrade at SS.

sox1970
11-19-2007, 12:10 PM
Considering I knew Garland would be traded, I like this move. A bonifide offensive and defensive shortstop that will bat second, and get clutch hits---GOOD MOVE.

twsoxfan5
11-19-2007, 12:11 PM
This is a tough one I am not sure how I feel about. Normally I am used to trading our pitchers for young talent I have never heard of and now we get a name I recognize but I dont know if he is enough. Here's to hoping we trade for or pick up some starting pitching.

doublem23
11-19-2007, 12:11 PM
:o:

:thud:

You've got to be kidding me.

CHISOXFAN13
11-19-2007, 12:12 PM
Somehow I always thought Kenny would end up shoveling Cabrera on the Sox. I hate this move, the guy is 33 years old. At least he's a leadoff hitter... I guess.

Makes me think the Sox won't get Hunter, and the pitching is going to suck next season.

Garland was going to break the bank next year and likely wasn't back. So you get a solid shortstop (everyone seems to forget who is out of that picture now) and free up some money. Not sure why you think thisd means we won't get Hunter. If anything, this deal makes is more possible with the extra cash.

rdivaldi
11-19-2007, 12:12 PM
I like the idea of getting Cabrera; however, if that's all we received then I'm disappointed in KW for not getting a little more. I'm also curious to hear about what we're going to do with Uribe...

jshanahanjr
11-19-2007, 12:13 PM
Like Cabrera trade especially if Jon could not be retained after 2008. Will Uribe play 2nd or be moved?

Demafrost
11-19-2007, 12:13 PM
Wow the Angels rotation is pretty good

Lackey
Escobar
Garland
Weaver
Saunders/Santana

Does Cabrera move to 2B or Uribe?

balke
11-19-2007, 12:14 PM
Stepping back for a second... this means the Sox have another trade coming. Too many IFers now, unless Kenny wants to put Uribe at 2nd, Fields at 3rd, and have Richar on the bench?

This opens the door a little if Kenny wants to deal for Crawford or pitching.

hi im skot
11-19-2007, 12:15 PM
Wow the Angels rotation is pretty good

Lackey
Escobar
Garland
Weaver
Saunders/Santana

Does Cabrera move to 2B or Uribe?

I like Uribe and was happy to have him back, but Richar has to get the shot...

mjmcend
11-19-2007, 12:15 PM
Garland was going to break the bank next year and likely wasn't back. So you get a solid shortstop (everyone seems to forget who is out of that picture now) and free up some money. Not sure why you think thisd means we won't get Hunter. If anything, this deal makes is more possible with the extra cash.

How do you free up money? Cabrera makes 9 Million next year. Unless the cash they are sending cover most of it, we are not walking out of this deal much better off.

chisoxmike
11-19-2007, 12:16 PM
Stepping back for a second... this means the Sox have another trade coming. Too many IFers now, unless Kenny wants to put Uribe at 2nd, Fields at 3rd, and have Richar on the bench?

This opens the door a little if Kenny wants to deal for Crawford.

How about some pitching? Because we don't have that right now.
Buehrle
Vazquez
Contreras
Danks
????

:puking:

BeviBall!
11-19-2007, 12:16 PM
I'm undecided on this. I really soured on Garland last year and now we get a solid player, albeit a little long in the tooth, to fill a big hole. I'm assuming Hunter is next as it's obvious Kenny is strengthening the defense up the middle. Gonna have to wait this out.

gobears1987
11-19-2007, 12:17 PM
Way to go Kenny!

kruzer31
11-19-2007, 12:17 PM
Why did we sign Uribe then, is he playing second now?

balke
11-19-2007, 12:17 PM
I like Uribe and was happy to have him back, but Richar has to get the shot...

I don't know, Uribe would be one hell of a second baseman. Its funny though, isn't the money he's got about equal to what they would've paid Iguchi? Iguchi's got the better bat. There'd have to be another trade coming if this is true.

102605
11-19-2007, 12:18 PM
I like the trade. Have the following questions to be answered though.

How long is Orlando Cabrera under contract?

How much cash came with him?

What value does Uribe have anymore to the 2008 team? Trade him? To who and for what!?

Can he leadoff too?



Overall, this solves a HUGE hole for 2008. I expect KW to sign one of the veteran arms available to a short deal for insurance purposes in the rotation.

salty99
11-19-2007, 12:18 PM
There is no reason to sign Uribe for 4.5 mil if we make this trade. I don't get it unless a Uribe deal is coming soon.

sox1970
11-19-2007, 12:18 PM
How about some pitching? Because we don't have that right now.
Buehrle
Vazquez
Contreras
Danks
????

:puking:

Floyd.

balke
11-19-2007, 12:19 PM
How about some pitching? Because we don't have that right now.
Buehrle
Vazquez
Contreras
Danks
????

:puking:

I already revised it and agree. This could make the Colon rumors true. Garland was going out West eventually one way or the other I believe. I just was hoping they could've gotten Figgins in the deal. Calming down a bit, Cabrera is decent value. I just don't like how old this team is.

spiffie
11-19-2007, 12:19 PM
How about some pitching? Because we don't have that right now.
Buehrle
Vazquez
Contreras
Danks
????

:puking:

Floyd.
:puking:

jenn2080
11-19-2007, 12:20 PM
Wow the Angels rotation is pretty good

Lackey
Escobar
Garland
Weaver
Saunders/Santana

Does Cabrera move to 2B or Uribe?


And ours is gonna blow.

sox1970
11-19-2007, 12:20 PM
I like the trade. Have the following questions to be answered though.

How long is Orlando Cabrera under contract?

How much cash came with him?

What value does Uribe have anymore to the 2008 team? Trade him? To who and for what!?

Can he leadoff too?



Overall, this solves a HUGE hole for 2008. I expect KW to sign one of the veteran arms available to a short deal for insurance purposes in the rotation.

Cabrera will bat second and he's signed for $8 million for 2008. He'll be a free agent next year-as will Garland.

balke
11-19-2007, 12:20 PM
Floyd.

I think Floyd may start over Danks. I don't think the Sox wil try throwing both in the rotation though. Danks ran out of gas midseason last year. They'd really have to be ready to use Broadway and Gio if they were going to take a chance on both of these guys.

chisoxmike
11-19-2007, 12:21 PM
And ours is gonna blow.

:KW
"Our guys can throw faster than their guys. Don't you just love the sound of a ball pop in a mit. I do."

Rocky Soprano
11-19-2007, 12:21 PM
I think Kenny has something else up his sleeves...

Considering Garland is under contract for only next season I dont hate this move at all, but I'm hoping Kenny makes something else happen.

drewcifer
11-19-2007, 12:22 PM
Does anyone have a link that discusses the deal? It doesn't make sense that a Cabreara for Garland trade (on it's own) would bring cash our way. Jon is due $12M. And Cabera only had a year on his contract also; FA in 09.

balke
11-19-2007, 12:22 PM
Cabrera will bat second and he's signed for $8 million for 2008. He'll be a free agent next year-as will Garland.

Why would he bat 2nd, he'd have the best speed and OBP combo on the team. Fields would probably stay 2nd in the order. Unless they wanna try and let Cabrera and Pods work the top of the order together, which if that worked would work really well. Unless the Sox are thinking of keeping Owens in the order, bleh.

mjmcend
11-19-2007, 12:22 PM
Wow, not a fan of this trade. We traded a very reliable starting pitcher for a 33 year old short stop signed for only one more year at $9 million.

His career numbers:
.273/ .321/.403

Uribe's career numbers:
.254/.295/.427

It's not that big of an upgrade over Uribe to justify giving up Garland. His 20 steals are not going to win us the pennant.

102605
11-19-2007, 12:23 PM
Cabrera will bat second and he's signed for $8 million for 2008. He'll be a free agent next year-as will Garland.

Could he leadoff? How is his OBP? I guess noone can ***** about how old he is then if he is only signed for 2008. I like the deal because I think the White Sox will fill the hole in the rotation still without using Floyd and Danks.

champagne030
11-19-2007, 12:23 PM
I like the trade. Have the following questions to be answered though.

How long is Orlando Cabrera under contract?

How much cash came with him?

What value does Uribe have anymore to the 2008 team? Trade him? To who and for what!?

Can he leadoff too?



Overall, this solves a HUGE hole for 2008. I expect KW to sign one of the veteran arms available to a short deal for insurance purposes in the rotation.

Cabrera is a free agent after the 2008 season. He's also due to be paid $10M this season. $9M salary and $1M bonus.

http://www.mlb4u.com/profile.php?id=25

russ99
11-19-2007, 12:24 PM
Garland was nails in '05, but not so much lately, and he's a FA next season.
Plus he goes back to the coast, where he wants to play.

I would have preferred Figgins and a shortstop prospect, but Cabrera is a nice pickup, and a heck of a #2 hitter, which we've needed since Iguchi left.

Expect Uribe to be moved. Maybe with Crede for another starter.

I expect this to be the first shot of a busy offseason for Kenny. We still need a CF, LF, leadoff man, bullpen and now another starter.

Guess I was right about it being too quiet... :D:

weareud
11-19-2007, 12:25 PM
Wow, not a fan of this trade. We traded a very reliable starting pitcher for a 33 year old short stop signed for only one more year at $9 million.

His career numbers:
.273/ .321/.403

Uribe's career numbers:
.254/.295/.427

It's not that big of an upgrade over Uribe to justify giving up Garland. His 20 steals are not going to win us the pennant.


We traded a pitcher signed for only one more year and was probably going elsewhere.

pauliemvp
11-19-2007, 12:25 PM
You would think that another deal is coming. Hopefully the deal is for more pitching or it could be a long season again.

MillerSoxFan
11-19-2007, 12:25 PM
This sucks.

RichH55
11-19-2007, 12:25 PM
Wow, not a fan of this trade. We traded a very reliable starting pitcher for a 33 year old short stop signed for only one more year at $9 million.

His career numbers:
.273/ .321/.403

Uribe's career numbers:
.254/.295/.427

It's not that big of an upgrade over Uribe to justify giving up Garland. His 20 steals are not going to win us the pennant.


The key is that OBP...he beat his career numbers last year (Cabrera that is)

If he can repeat last year, we should be all right

I'd like to see an All Cabrera left infield....we should have gotten that former Indians MR too

As many Cabreras as you can muster

jenn2080
11-19-2007, 12:26 PM
:KW
"Our guys can throw faster than their guys. Don't you just love the sound of a ball pop in a mit. I do."


Right now we have 2 1/2 reliable starting pitchers. AWESOME

mjmcend
11-19-2007, 12:26 PM
We traded a pitcher signed for only one more year and was probably going elsewhere.

For a shortstop who is signed for only one year and will probably be going elsewhere. I repeat he is not that much of an upgrade over Uribe to justify trading away Garland.

CHISOXFAN13
11-19-2007, 12:26 PM
Does anyone have a link that discusses the deal? It doesn't make sense that a Cabreara for Garland trade (on it's own) would bring cash our way. Jon is due $12M. And Cabera only had a year on his contract also; FA in 09.

Sure, it makes sense. Kenny does the deal without taking a prospect or two, instead taking the extra cash to help bring another commodity in here.

People on here blasting the deal aren't realizing that. It's like 2005 all over again. Let the offseason run its course. This won't be the last deal he makes.

102605
11-19-2007, 12:27 PM
Does anyone have a link that discusses the deal? It doesn't make sense that a Cabreara for Garland trade (on it's own) would bring cash our way. Jon is due $12M. And Cabera only had a year on his contract also; FA in 09.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3118872

spiffie
11-19-2007, 12:27 PM
Hey kids, happy thought for the day, our #3-5 starters (Contreras, Danks, Floyd) combined for a 5.50 ERA last year. Kind of makes Garland's 4.23 sound a lot better don't it?

I fail to see how this helps us for next year, or for the future.

mjmcend
11-19-2007, 12:27 PM
The key is that OBP...he beat his career numbers last year (Cabrera that is)

If he can repeat last year, we should be all right

I'd like to see an All Cabrera left infield....we should have gotten that former Indians MR too

As many Cabreras as you can muster

When you are counting on a 33 year old to significantly beat his career number to make the deal all right, you got screwed.

Sockinchisox
11-19-2007, 12:28 PM
Big risk of a trade.

on one hand it frees up a ton of cash to sign Hunter or Rowand and gives us a potential lead off hitter.

On the other hand it's now up to Danks/Floyd/Gio or Broadway to replace Garland's production.

CHISOXFAN13
11-19-2007, 12:28 PM
For a shortstop who is signed for only one year and will probably be going elsewhere. I repeat he is not that much of an upgrade over Uribe to justify trading away Garland.

A two-time gold glover, who had a .345 OBP, 20 SB and doesn't swing for the fences, isn't much of an upgrade? Wow, now the Uribe supporters are coming out in full force. I love it.

spiffie
11-19-2007, 12:28 PM
Big risk of a trade.

on one hand it frees up a ton of cash to sign Hunter or Rowand and gives us a potential lead off hitter.

On the other hand it's now up to Danks/Floyd/Gio or Broadway to replace Garland's production.
How does it free up a ton of cash? Cabrera is owed $10 million next year.

gobears1987
11-19-2007, 12:29 PM
Kenny Williams called Frank Thomas an idiot!?!? After this trade, I don't think he has too much room to talk. This just assures we have Contreras and Floyd in the rotation next year. KW better find us another SP or we are screwed.

102605
11-19-2007, 12:29 PM
Sure, it makes sense. Kenny does the deal without taking a prospect or two, instead taking the extra cash to help bring another commodity in here.

People on here blasting the deal aren't realizing that. It's like 2005 all over again. Let the offseason run its course. This won't be the last deal he makes.

:nod:

CHISOXFAN13
11-19-2007, 12:30 PM
Hey kids, happy thought for the day, our #3-5 starters (Contreras, Danks, Floyd) combined for a 5.50 ERA last year. Kind of makes Garland's 4.23 sound a lot better don't it?

I fail to see how this helps us for next year, or for the future.

Hey kids, reality check for today.

IT'S NOVEMBER 19!!!! Pitchers and catchers reporting tomorrow?

How did everyone feel on Nov. 19, 2004? Pretty crappy.

spiffie
11-19-2007, 12:30 PM
Sure, it makes sense. Kenny does the deal without taking a prospect or two, instead taking the extra cash to help bring another commodity in here.

People on here blasting the deal aren't realizing that. It's like 2005 all over again. Let the offseason run its course. This won't be the last deal he makes.
There's no mention in the ESPN link of cash coming our way. Hell, I'm pretty sure I read in another thread that it is illegal to send money unless you're offsetting a greater salary.

102605
11-19-2007, 12:30 PM
How does it free up a ton of cash? Cabrera is owed $10 million next year.


$10? I read $8 million.

Etownsox13
11-19-2007, 12:30 PM
Yes good deal for the Sox, but if we were going to make a move for a SS why did Kenny pick up Uribe's option for 4.5 Mil?

WhiteSox5187
11-19-2007, 12:31 PM
Good God...no one else besides Cabrera? This sort of fills a hole at short, but I don't think he's the answer to our leadoff problems, is he?? Oh and this also creates a massive hole in our rotation. So we have a solid 1-2 pitchers, and a big old question mark for 3-5. Jesus.

mjmcend
11-19-2007, 12:32 PM
A two-time gold glover, who had a .345 OBP, 20 SB and doesn't swing for the fences, isn't much of an upgrade? Wow, now the Uribe supporters are coming out in full force. I love it.

.345 OBP last year. If he does that again this year, I will be shocked. Uribe sucks plain and simple. But Cabrera isn't a world beater either. The gaping hole in our rotation isn't worth this trade. Also the possibility of trading Garland for something more valuable, like youth, is gone now too.

The Immigrant
11-19-2007, 12:32 PM
There's no mention in the ESPN link of cash coming our way. Hell, I'm pretty sure I read in another thread that it is illegal to send money unless you're offsetting a greater salary.

Read the press release.

munchman33
11-19-2007, 12:32 PM
Well, if on top of this move we sign Torii Hunter, then we'll have an all-star caliber gold glover at SS and CF. I think I can see what Kenny's trying to do. Great defense up the middle will help a young pitching staff. Which is what we'll probably have. If he can, Contreras is probably next, opening three spots for Danks/Gio/Floyd/Broadway, and every chance for them to succeed.

For those of you asking for more, what else do you expect? Garland's in a contract year and coming off a poor showing. His sinker was garbage the last two months of the year. We weren't going to get any top prospects for him.

At least we know who's leading off.

HawkDJ
11-19-2007, 12:33 PM
There's no mention in the ESPN link of cash coming our way. Hell, I'm pretty sure I read in another thread that it is illegal to send money unless you're offsetting a greater salary.

Yahoo mentions cash coming our way.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=ApA707UpAwdvvd6VOjPq5PiFCLcF?slug=ap-angels-whitesoxtrade&prov=ap&type=lgns

sox1970
11-19-2007, 12:33 PM
$10? I read $8 million.

I goofed. It's $10.

Sockinchisox
11-19-2007, 12:33 PM
Rotoworld likes it:

White Sox acquired SS Orlando Cabrera from Angels in exchange for RHP Jon Garland.
An odd trade, because the White Sox already re-signed Juan Uribe and the Angels don't have a clear replacement for Cabrera unless they think that Erick Aybar is ready. The White Sox pick up an excellent defender who batted .301/.345/.397 in 155 games for the Angels in 2007, giving them a huge upgrade over Uribe.

spiffie
11-19-2007, 12:33 PM
Hey kids, reality check for today.

IT'S NOVEMBER 19!!!! Pitchers and catchers reporting tomorrow?

How did everyone feel on Nov. 19, 2004? Pretty crappy.
You're right. Finding three dependable starters is child's play. Silly me. Hell, he might get 5 or 6 solid starters just to keep some in the pen for insurance.

A bad trade is a bad trade no matter when its made. If this freed up money, or brought in prospects who could be flipped it would be a different story, but all that's been done is a minor upgrade at SS in exchange for one of our 3 dependable starters. No real cash savings, no added prospects, this trade is pretty much a zero-sum sort of deal, where what you see is what you get.

drewcifer
11-19-2007, 12:34 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3118872

How does it free up a ton of cash? Cabrera is owed $10 million next year.

That's what I'm asking. No mention of $. And how much could it possibly be?

Looks like two guys trading payroll with final contract season players. I don't see us being able to buy much, if there is even anything come back. Not saying I don't like the trade or anything - for a year it seems to serve both sides.

spiffie
11-19-2007, 12:34 PM
Yahoo mentions cash coming our way.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=ApA707UpAwdvvd6VOjPq5PiFCLcF?slug=ap-angels-whitesoxtrade&prov=ap&type=lgns
Interesting. If it turns out to be substantial then the deal could make more sense.

russ99
11-19-2007, 12:35 PM
Kenny's not done. I like the deal as a first shot to reworking the Sox to contender status, plus would we really get top prospects for Garland anyway??

Also, if Cabrera's our leadoff hitter, we're in trouble. He'll be batting #2, where he excels.

gobears1987
11-19-2007, 12:35 PM
Here is how I see the rotation next year:
Buehrle
Vazquez
Contreras (yuck)
Danks (not too worried here as most rookie pitchers burn out towards the end of their first season)
Floyd (He sucks)

If and when Gio and Broadway are ready, replaced Floyd and Contreras. If either Gio or Broadway flop, we are SOL.

sox1970
11-19-2007, 12:35 PM
Yes good deal for the Sox, but if we were going to make a move for a SS why did Kenny pick up Uribe's option for 4.5 Mil?

Because at the time they had to pick up the option, they had no idea this deal could be made. The Sox were over a barrel because they have no shortstop prospects that are close. Uribe will get traded.

voodoochile
11-19-2007, 12:35 PM
Sure, it makes sense. Kenny does the deal without taking a prospect or two, instead taking the extra cash to help bring another commodity in here.

People on here blasting the deal aren't realizing that. It's like 2005 all over again. Let the offseason run its course. This won't be the last deal he makes.

What are you freaking nuts? How the **** can we accept that crap? I mean honestly, there's a diving board and there's a deep end, it's time to get wet. Or to put it another way, Chicken Little has no clue what is going on. Sky is falling? Get real, the sky has fallen...:tongue:

havelj
11-19-2007, 12:35 PM
Ah...the annual smell of turkey, a KW trade and the predictable knee-jerk reaction to a SINGLE trade.

Why don't some of you Sox fans finally realize that you look at the sum of ALL the trades and moves in the off-season when you wake up April 1st.

Patience, people. Let KW work the phones.

spiffie
11-19-2007, 12:36 PM
Well, if on top of this move we sign Torii Hunter, then we'll have an all-star caliber gold glover at SS and CF. I think I can see what Kenny's trying to do. Great defense up the middle will help a young pitching staff. Which is what we'll probably have. If he can, Contreras is probably next, opening three spots for Danks/Gio/Floyd/Broadway, and every chance for them to succeed.

For those of you asking for more, what else do you expect? Garland's in a contract year and coming off a poor showing. His sinker was garbage the last two months of the year. We weren't going to get any top prospects for him.

At least we know who's leading off.
How exactly is a 4.23 ERA, better than league average, and 200+ innings a poor showing in any rational universe?

rdivaldi
11-19-2007, 12:36 PM
is a minor upgrade at SS

Okay I think it's time for people to stop using this mantra. Cabrera is a big upgrade over Uribe, it's not even close. I'm not crazy about the trade either, but let's not ignore the facts...

russ99
11-19-2007, 12:37 PM
Here is how I see the rotation next year:
Buehrle
Vazquez
Contreras (yuck)
Danks (not too worried here as most rookie pitchers burn out towards the end of their first season)
Floyd (He sucks)

If and when Gio and Broadway are ready, replaced Floyd and Contreras. If either Gio or Broadway flop, we are SOL.

I'd go with:

1. Buehrle
2. Vazquez
3. Trade or FA acqusition (patience people, Kenny knows there's a hole now)
4. Danks
5. Gio

kevingrt
11-19-2007, 12:37 PM
Now Garland gets to go home.

Jury will be out on this trade for awhile I think.

roadrunner
11-19-2007, 12:37 PM
Horrible - this cripples the top and the bottom of the rotation. Vazquez is a decent #3 but not a #2. The fifth starter (and maybe fourth too) is gonna be floyd/gio/broadway/my grandmother which will basically equal Wright/Munoz/etc of the early 2000s.

As for previous speculation about Uribe getting moved - are you kidding me? Does anyone here actually think teams are waiting in line to pay Uribe $4.5 million next year?

KW continues to bid against himself. Don't the Angels have a young shortstop they want to play anyway? He did the same damn thing when he paid for Thome while the Phils had Howard in the wings. (don't mean to discuss the merits of that trade just to point out KW can't seem to take capitalize on advantageous bargaining situations.) The Angels are ecstatic to move cabrera's salary into pitching since they have a much cheaper and younger alternative anyway. Meanwhile, KW isn't making the Sox any younger.

voodoochile
11-19-2007, 12:37 PM
Here is how I see the rotation next year:
Buehrle
Vazquez
Contreras (yuck)
Danks (not too worried here as most rookie pitchers burn out towards the end of their first season)
Floyd (He sucks)

If and when Gio and Broadway are ready, replaced Floyd and Contreras. If either Gio or Broadway flop, we are SOL.

No chance of a trade? I also read in WTS that there are several retread pitchers who are coming off of injuries who seem like just the type of players KW likes to sign. Clement, Benson or Colon could be signed cheap with an incentive laden contract to be the #4 pitcher and then only one young pitcher has to perform with tons of guys to back him up if he fails.

Expect Contreras to bounce back.

gobears1987
11-19-2007, 12:38 PM
Okay I think it's time for people to stop using this mantra. Cabrera is a big upgrade over Uribe, it's not even close. I'm not crazy about the trade either, but let's not ignore the facts...
I would say Cabrera is a big upgrade over Uribe, but not a big enough one to **** over the entire rotation.

infohawk
11-19-2007, 12:38 PM
This is the first of many moves. Let's see how it all shapes up and fits together when KW is done.

Also, Garland is in the last year of his contract. You're unlikely going to get a package of high-talent players for a guy in his last year. This is essentially a good trade for both teams. They swapped two guys who are in the last year of their contracts. We needed a new shortstop and the Angels needed pitching. Cabrera is a HUGE upgrade from Juan offensively and a terrific defender. He may not have Juan's power, but he is a more disciplined hitter who hits for average and will be fairly consistent throughout the year. Juan would get hot for a couple weeks, then go ice-cold for a month. I like this trade and suspect there's more news coming down the pike.

California Sox
11-19-2007, 12:38 PM
Personally, I would have preferred Aybar. I guess so would the Angels. Great trade for them. May work out okay for us. Isn't Cabrera a Colombian like Renteria? Maybe KW missed on Renteria so he went for Renteria-lite.

KW and I simply like different kinds of teams. My fantasy team has more homegrown talent than the Sox. Add Hunter to the mix and you've got 32 year-olds at almost every position. Oh well, Cabrera is better than Uribe. And since he's a free agent at the end of the year, if our pitching pushes us out of the race, he's probably a trade-able commodity.

kidmccarthy
11-19-2007, 12:38 PM
Wow, Cabrera is exactly the type of players we need. I will miss Jon, but this helps the two areas we needed. Defense and a leadoff hitter. What is his contract left?

Kilroy
11-19-2007, 12:39 PM
we traded Garland for a 32 year old short stop. Bad trade.

That's a horrible, horrible trade. It just plain BLOWS!

spiffie
11-19-2007, 12:40 PM
No chance of a trade? I also read in WTS that there are several retread pitchers who are coming off of injuries who seem like just the type of players KW likes to sign. Clement, Benson or Colon could be signed cheap with an incentive laden contract to be the #4 pitcher and then only one young pitcher has to perform with tons of guys to back him up if he fails.

Expect Contreras to bounce back.
Why? Why should we expect a 36 year old (at least) pitcher with injury problems to regain top form? I hope he does, but I wouldn't say the odds of Contreras doing better next year should be more than a coin flip.

Jerko
11-19-2007, 12:40 PM
Sorry, but we're not going anywhere if we keep seeing lines like this:

Danks/Gio/Floyd/Broadway

in these threads.

Hopefully there are more moves to be made.

weareud
11-19-2007, 12:40 PM
Wow, Cabrera is exactly the type of players we need. I will miss Jon, but this helps the two areas we needed. Defense and a leadoff hitter. What is his contract left?

:?:

He's got one year left on his contract if thats what you're asking

gobears1987
11-19-2007, 12:40 PM
No chance of a trade? I also read in WTS that there are several retread pitchers who are coming off of injuries who seem like just the type of players KW likes to sign. Clement, Benson or Colon could be signed cheap with an incentive laden contract to be the #4 pitcher and then only one young pitcher has to perform with tons of guys to back him up if he fails.

Expect Contreras to bounce back.
I really hope you're right about Contreras. He looked good later in the season, but I'd rather not rely on him to bounce back. It isn't that Contreras sucks or anything, but we really have no clue how old he is. It's just the plain simple fact that age has to be affecting him.

If KW can get another pitcher fine, I remember wanting him to get Clement in 05, but I'm happy with how el Duque worked out.

If KW is unable to get us another pitcher, we are in trouble. I'm fine with Danks in the rotation as throwing 150 innings as a rookie in MLB is like throwing 250 in the minors. He just needed to get a year under his belt.

spiffie
11-19-2007, 12:41 PM
I'd go with:

1. Buehrle
2. Vazquez
3. Trade or FA acqusition (patience people, Kenny knows there's a hole now)
4. Danks
5. Gio
I'm sorry, I'm still patiently waiting for the bullpen fix that KW was aware of and was going to fix before the 2007 season. I'll have to put being patient to fix the gaping crater in the rotation in the back of the line.

voodoochile
11-19-2007, 12:42 PM
Why? Why should we expect a 36 year old (at least) pitcher with injury problems to regain top form? I hope he does, but I wouldn't say the odds of Contreras doing better next year should be more than a coin flip.

I just do, that's all. Will he ever be a #1 again? Probably not, can he be a serviceable #3 or 4? I would be surprised if he isn't.

Foulke You
11-19-2007, 12:42 PM
Here is how I see the rotation next year:
Buehrle
Vazquez
Contreras (yuck)
Danks (not too worried here as most rookie pitchers burn out towards the end of their first season)
Floyd (He sucks)

If and when Gio and Broadway are ready, replaced Floyd and Contreras. If either Gio or Broadway flop, we are SOL.
You are assuming of course, that KW isn't going to acquire any more starting pitching via trade or free agency. How do you know this is what the rotation is going to be? I'd be pretty surprised if KW doesn't add a pitcher to this rotation.

KW added a gold glove SS who hit over .300 last year, 80+ RBI, 20 Stolen bases, 100+ runs scored, and led the AL in sacrifice hits. Sounds EXACTLY what our lineup needs. Cabrera improves our offense AND defense and is definitely a "win now" move for '08. Assuming KW adds a pitcher to the rotation to replace Garland, I definitely like the move.

Sockinchisox
11-19-2007, 12:42 PM
Angels fans hate this trade, because they have no apparent heir to Cabrera.

spiffie
11-19-2007, 12:43 PM
I just do, that's all. Will he ever be a #1 again? Probably not, can he be a serviceable #3 or 4? I would be surprised if he isn't.
Fair enough. I hope he can be. I hate the thought we're on the hook for $20 million for a guy we're crossing fingers can be a serviceable #4, but oh well, sometimes the turkey comes out moist and juicy, sometimes its dry.

Noneck
11-19-2007, 12:44 PM
The Sox now have to make a deal for an established 200+ inning guy, if they don't, getting Cabrera makes no sense. They can't compete next year with 2 established starters, a hope and 2 dreams.

rdivaldi
11-19-2007, 12:44 PM
The fifth starter (and maybe fourth too) is gonna be floyd/gio/broadway/my grandmother which will basically equal Wright/Munoz/etc of the early 2000s.

:?:

Please don't compare Gio Gonzalez to Wright or Munoz, that's just ridiculous. He's far beyond either of those guys in terms of talent and ability.

FedEx227
11-19-2007, 12:44 PM
Angels fans hate this trade, because they have no apparent heir to Cabrera.

Yeah, they have a lot of guys that are "close" ala Brandon Wood. But just not quite there yet.

I like the deal honestly, Garland's contract situation had a lot to do with this and Cabrera finally adds a PURE hitter to our team which we desperately need.

102605
11-19-2007, 12:45 PM
:?:

He's got one year left on his contract if thats what you're asking

Well then noone can complain that he is getting too old.

Again, I like the deal. It also shows they are thinking about 2008 and only 2008. Which is fine with me. KW typically has a win now mentality. I don't know what they can do with Uribe now but I know there are more moves that have to be made. I like the idea of Clement or even Benson for security purposes in the rotation too.

twsoxfan5
11-19-2007, 12:45 PM
I think we all need to relax until the rest of the offseason shakes out. As of right now we got an upgrade at short that everyone wanted. And we are short a pitcher that we would probably not resign anyways. I will make my judgement on this move when the offseason is over.

FedEx227
11-19-2007, 12:45 PM
:?:

Please don't compare Gio Gonzalez to Wright or Munoz, that's just ridiculous. He's far beyond either of those guys in terms of talent and ability.

Thank you.

People assume White Sox AAA starters = Arnie Munoz.

That's a load of crap.

cbotnyse
11-19-2007, 12:47 PM
This is the first of many moves. Let's see how it all shapes up and fits together when KW is done.

Also, Garland is in the last year of his contract. You're unlikely going to get a package of high-talent players for a guy in his last year. This is essentially a good trade for both teams. They swapped two guys who are in the last year of their contracts. We needed a new shortstop and the Angels needed pitching. Cabrera is a HUGE upgrade from Juan offensively and a terrific defender. He may not have Juan's power, but he is a more disciplined hitter who hits for average and will be fairly consistent throughout the year. Juan would get hot for a couple weeks, then go ice-cold for a month. I like this trade and suspect there's more news coming down the pike.I agree with everything here. I will miss Jon but we need to get value for him now. Kinda strange to get another SS, but it is an upgrade from Uribe. I suspect more moves to come.

rdivaldi
11-19-2007, 12:47 PM
Thank you.

People assume White Sox AAA starters = Arnie Munoz.

That's a load of crap.

Yep. That being said, I in no way expect Gio to come in next year and throw 200+ innings and make us forget Jon ever pitched in a White Sox uni. He'd probably put up numbers similar to Danks in his first year.

jenn2080
11-19-2007, 12:47 PM
No chance of a trade? I also read in WTS that there are several retread pitchers who are coming off of injuries who seem like just the type of players KW likes to sign. Clement, Benson or Colon could be signed cheap with an incentive laden contract to be the #4 pitcher and then only one young pitcher has to perform with tons of guys to back him up if he fails.

Expect Contreras to bounce back.


AND NOW YOUR 2008 CHICAGO WHITE SOX


http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r293/jenn2080/xmas_figurines.jpg

Foulke You
11-19-2007, 12:47 PM
I think we all need to relax until the rest of the offseason shakes out. As of right now we got an upgrade at short that everyone wanted. And we are short a pitcher that we would probably not resign anyways. I will make my judgement on this move when the offseason is over.
Stop being so level headed. It's way more fun to stomp your feet in protest and make a big stink! :tongue:

rdivaldi
11-19-2007, 12:48 PM
I would say Cabrera is a big upgrade over Uribe, but not a big enough one to **** over the entire rotation.

I can't disagree with that...

havelj
11-19-2007, 12:48 PM
"Orlando Cabrera batted .301 with 35 doubles, eight home runs, 86 RBIs and a career-high 101 runs with the Angels last year. He had a career-high 192 hits. He won his second Gold Glove and led AL shortstops in fielding percentage (.983)."

For A.L. shortstops, he was:
3rd in RBIs
1st in runs
3rd in batting average
3rd in stolen bases
3rd in hits
4th in OBP

That's mostly behind Jeter in those categories.

Procol Harum
11-19-2007, 12:48 PM
Me no likey. At least last year our starting pitching was a comparative strength--sees like we've created a new area of question marks and have a 33 yr. old guy with a one year contract to help shore up another area. Talk about your robbin' Peter to pay Paul.

And we still have Uribe around so we haven't yet strengthened ourselves via addition by subtraction there. Here's hopin' Kenny has got Parts 2 and 3 and, perhaps, 4, of his grand strategic campaign that he'll be unveiling in the next couple of weeks...:?:

weareud
11-19-2007, 12:49 PM
AND NOW YOUR 2008 CHICAGO WHITE SOX


http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r293/jenn2080/xmas_figurines.jpg

I don't get it

spiffie
11-19-2007, 12:49 PM
:?:

Please don't compare Gio Gonzalez to Wright or Munoz, that's just ridiculous. He's far beyond either of those guys in terms of talent and ability.
He's better potentially than either of them. Danny Wright andArnie Munoz kicked a lot of ass at AA level ball too, putting up even better numbers than Gio.

I suspect Gio will be a good MLB pitcher. But right now, he's still just hope and potential, with no proof yet.

California Sox
11-19-2007, 12:49 PM
As much as I like Gio, I think Danks and Floyd both make the rotation. KW loves Floyd. He's going to have to pitch his way out of a shot. And to give up McCarthy, you know he likes Danks too. Besides, Gio likes to elevate the fastball. I'd love to see him have to adjust to the bandbox in Charlotte before he gets his ears pinned back in the Cell. I think both Broadway and Egbert will get longer looks in Tucson than Gio.

Foulke You
11-19-2007, 12:51 PM
I just do, that's all. Will he ever be a #1 again? Probably not, can he be a serviceable #3 or 4? I would be surprised if he isn't.
The other thing that concerned me about Garland is that whole "knot" in his shoulder that he announced to the press last year. When starting pitchers with lots of innings logged start complaining about shoulder tightness/soreness, I get worried. I wouldn't be surprised if Garland had a nice year for LAA but I also wouldn't be surprised if he went down with a shoulder problem at some point during '08.

Foulke You
11-19-2007, 12:51 PM
I don't get it
It is a reference to the "Land of Misfit Toys" from Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer.

downstairs
11-19-2007, 12:52 PM
Why? We get a shortstop who hit .300 last year and swiped 20 bags. Garland was gone after this year anyway. We are also getting cash considerations.

Garland is a good pitcher - Cabrera is a good SS.

Exactly! (My emphasis added.)

Garland isn't Cy Young. He's not a "great" player, he's good and has flashes of being really good.

Its a good move.

Sargeant79
11-19-2007, 12:55 PM
One possibility re: Uribe...

They may keep him. He plays SS once a week and 2B twice a week...If Richar is hitting .200 in mid-May, he becomes the starting 2B for the rest of the season.

BadBobbyJenks
11-19-2007, 12:56 PM
:thumbsup:Kenny.

Ok folks lets be real about things. Jon Garland was a number 3 starter. We have a glaring need at both shortstop and a number 2 hitter. We just filled both of those needs with a gold glove, 300 hitting 20 steals a year shortstop. We have young pitching on the verge with broadway and gio. It is still November, KW has got more to come. The infield in crowded, crede or fields will be on the move.


Loved Jon Garland while he was here, but the 2008 sox are now a better team. Whats next kenny?

soltrain21
11-19-2007, 12:57 PM
AND NOW YOUR 2008 CHICAGO WHITE SOX


http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r293/jenn2080/xmas_figurines.jpg


I believe we were labeled that in 2005, also. Get off the ledge already.

Elvisfan1977
11-19-2007, 12:58 PM
There's gotta be something else in the works. This trade makes no sense until the other shoe drops. Let's wait and see.

FedEx227
11-19-2007, 12:58 PM
:thumbsup:Kenny.

Ok folks lets be real about things. Jon Garland was a number 3 starter. We have a glaring need at both shortstop and a number 2 hitter. We just filled both of those needs with a gold glove, 300 hitting 30 steals a year shortstop. We have young pitching on the verge with broadway and gio. It is still November, KW has got more to come. The infield in crowded, crede or fields will be on the move.


Loved Jon Garland while he was here, but the 2008 sox are now a better team. Whats next kenny?

Yup. You can say what you want about pitching and defense leading a team, but our offense was god awful last year. This fixes the glaring holes we do have. I love Garland as much as the next guy but with his uneasy contract situation I'm glad we got value when we did.

RockJock07
11-19-2007, 12:58 PM
WOW, look at all the negativity. This is just the first move. Garland was lights out two seasons ago but last season was a average pitcher. Orlando is a very solid SS and who cares if he's 33, mid-30's is still in the prime.

In addition, Garland wasn't coming back after next season. KW wasn't gonna re-sign him, this is a great move. KW could have waited until next season before the TD but I'd rather have Orlando at SS all season then half of season.

More moves will come, as someone already said, please just try to look at the big picture. jesus.....

FedEx227
11-19-2007, 12:59 PM
I believe we were labeled that in 2005, also. Get off the ledge already.

Thank you.

God damn people it's not like we traded Mark Buehrle for Tony Graffinino.

We got a VERY good player in return.

Lip Man 1
11-19-2007, 12:59 PM
It's hard to make a 'snap' judgement with this deal.

On one hand the old adage 'pitching wins pennants' rings true. I'm extremely nervous about any staff that has Contreras, Floyd and Danks as 3/5th's of the rotation.

I also don't get trading for a shortstop after you pick up the option on Uribe. If you wanted a 'utility player' there are plenty of less expensive options out there. Perhaps he'll now be part of a deal. Cabrera is a fine player but he's also 33 and can be a free agent after this season. The Sox could be in the exact same position next November....looking for a shortstop.

On the other side of the coin of course, is the simple fact that because the minor league system has basically done nothing for the past few years, Kenny is between a rock and a hard place.

There are so many holes that he has to trade his marktable chips to start filling them, even if it means opening up other holes. There's no other way around this fact, unless the Sox decide to raise the payroll dramatically to attempt to fill all of them without giving players up...and that's not going to happen.

Also we don't know how much money is involved. If that is significant it could be used to help fill other holes including a bullpen that leaks like a sieve.

I appreciate everything John did for the club, especially in 2005 of course. The year a CHICAGO team WON a World Series.

Lip

PaleHoser
11-19-2007, 12:59 PM
I'd like this deal better if Uribe wasn't re-signed.

I'm worried that this doesn't lead to another deal. Kenny has history of collecting shortstops though. Remember having Jose Valentin and Royce Clayton at the same time? :rolleyes:

thedudeabides
11-19-2007, 12:59 PM
The other thing that concerned me about Garland is that whole "knot" in his shoulder that he announced to the press last year. When starting pitchers with lots of innings logged start complaining about shoulder tightness/soreness, I get worried. I wouldn't be surprised if Garland had a nice year for LAA but I also wouldn't be surprised if he went down with a shoulder problem at some point during '08.

Agreed. What worries me even more was that they couldn't diagnose exactly what the problem was. Some days he just couldn't get loose.

Also, I believe in another thread people were claiming Garland to be a type "B" free agent....if Cabrera is a type "A", and the Sox were unable to resign Jon after this year, the Sox will get better compensation. This was one reason many on this board wanted Furcal. I think Cabrera is a better player than Furcal.

Domeshot17
11-19-2007, 01:00 PM
WoW, forgot about Orlando even though I had been clamoring for him for a while (although my idea had him coming with shields or bootcheck).

I saw the title and thought it was Miguel, which would have been a steal, so this was a little bit of a letdown.

Sargeant79
11-19-2007, 01:00 PM
Yup. You can say what you want about pitching and defense leading a team, but our offense was god awful last year. This fixes the glaring holes we do have. I love Garland as much as the next guy but with his uneasy contract situation I'm glad we got value when we did.

To add to that...

Not only does it help the offense, it's a defensive upgrade as well. This will help the young pitchers.

I don't have a problem with this trade, and I'm really curious to see what else winds up happening over the next couple months.

kidmccarthy
11-19-2007, 01:00 PM
Two things strike me. If Egbert can keep the ball down, is he Jon? Cabrera is exactly the type of player our team needs. I am still optimistic...

saltwater farmer
11-19-2007, 01:02 PM
:thumbsup:Kenny.
Ok folks lets be real about things. . . . It is still November, KW has got more to come. . . .
Loved Jon Garland while he was here, but the 2008 sox are now a better team. Whats next kenny?

Nice to see/hear a voice of reason on this thread. I'm glad Kenny got an early start reshaping the club. If this is the only move he makes this offseason, then I'll join the chorus of the incredulous nay-sayers. Until then I'm gonna sit back with a pint or two and see how it ALL plays out.

:gulp:

chisoxmike
11-19-2007, 01:02 PM
We got a VERY good player in return.

We'll see.

We traded a solid starter in the prime of his career for a 32-year old short stop that had a career year.

I'm not saying Cabrera is a bad player, but I'd rather have Garland.

We'll see...

Sockinchisox
11-19-2007, 01:03 PM
Also, if Fields is manning 3rd next year, Cabrera could possibly make up for the little range that Fields has to his left when trying to dive for balls. From what I remember about OC, he has tremendous range to both his left and his right.

Noneck
11-19-2007, 01:03 PM
With the current rotation , this team can not compete unless 3 lighting bolts are caught in a bottle. A 200+ established starter is needed for next year. The sad thing is I don't see many players (if any) on this club that can be traded to get a #3 starter.

Sockinchisox
11-19-2007, 01:03 PM
Garland is holding a press conference in SoCal right now, 670 says they'll have it soon.

TheCommander
11-19-2007, 01:04 PM
Nice to see/hear a voice of reason on this thread. I'm glad Kenny got an early start reshaping the club. If this is the only move he makes this offseason, then I'll join the chorus of the incredulous nay-sayers. Until then I'm gonna sit back with a pint or two and see how it ALL plays out.

:gulp:

:nod::thumbsup:

guillen4life13
11-19-2007, 01:05 PM
I just wonder what happens with Uribe now. Pablo should be back by spring training and will be the reserve infielder, and 4.5 mil is one heckuva lot to pay a bench infielder like Uribe. He has to go in part of a trade, but who would want a player like him? Then we get to the rotation, which has more question marks than sure things, and the 'pen, which only really has 1 or 2 sure things.

I think that KW could be throwing the towel in for this year, saving a little money and letting these homegrowns show their worth, and will pounce back in, make some big moves a year from now. Maybe it's not a bad idea?

Crede is almost surely gone so that KW can get at least some compensation before he either tanks or has a really good year and prices himself out of White Sox budgets.

I guess it's just a wait and see right now. I'm pretty indifferent on the trade. I'm sad to see Garland go but I'm happy to see the upgrade at SS.

rdivaldi
11-19-2007, 01:06 PM
He's better potentially than either of them. Danny Wright andArnie Munoz kicked a lot of ass at AA level ball too, putting up even better numbers than Gio.

I suspect Gio will be a good MLB pitcher. But right now, he's still just hope and potential, with no proof yet.

While I agree that Gio is all just potential and could be a bust, I don't think you can compare Wright and Munoz to him. Wright was a project college pitcher who finally had his breakout season at age 23 in AA. Munoz was a left handed reliever all through the minors before a flukey run of 70 or so innings as a starter at age 22 in AA. Gio on the other hand has been a starter all through the minors, made AA at age 20 and had a great season last year at age 21. Most people would look at that and say that 1 or 2 years is not such a big deal, but it is. I have high hopes for Gio and De los Santos, I cross my fingers that at least one of them can make a big splash in the rotation by 2009.

Elvisfan1977
11-19-2007, 01:06 PM
[quote=RockJock07;1725056] Garland was lights out two seasons ago but last season was a average pitcher. quote]

He was an average pitcher last year because he didn't get any run support for our offense.

balke
11-19-2007, 01:08 PM
Both guys only have one year left, so really right now the Sox need offense. I like the move better as the dust is settling. The Sox are pitching rich IMO. Contreras may bounce back, he looked good at the end of the season. Floyd looked good at the end, Broadway had a great outing, Gio's time is just around the corner. It was time to deal a pitcher.

I'd like Uribe at 2B I think. Maybe that'll work out. If Pods is healthy in LF and the Sox can snag Hunter and a reliever or two, I'll be happy. I just wanna know what's going on at 3B soon.

MCHSoxFan
11-19-2007, 01:08 PM
Not sure what will come of this but... I AM CRYIN NOW...IN HIGH SCHOOL!!! :whiner::whiner::whiner:

the1tab
11-19-2007, 01:08 PM
Is Richar?

I love Cabrera hittin 2nd next year.

FedEx227
11-19-2007, 01:09 PM
We'll see.

We traded a solid starter in the prime of his career for a 32-year old short stop that had a career year.

I'm not saying Cabrera is a bad player, but I'd rather have Garland.

We'll see...

Career Averages:

.273/.321/.403, 11 HR, 72 RBI, 39 2B, 166 Hits, 19 SB, 4 CS, 43 BB, 57 SO

2007:

.301/.345/.397, 8 HR, 86 RBI, 35 2B, 192 Hits, 20 SB, 4 CS, 44 BB, 64 SO

I wouldn't really call it a career year, it's obvious he had a bit of an increase in hits, but it'd be nice to see a few less Ks and a few more hits and doubles out of the SS spot.

rdivaldi
11-19-2007, 01:10 PM
We traded a solid starter in the prime of his career for a 32-year old short stop that had a career year.


That's selling Cabrera a bit short, he was almost as good in 2006 as he was in 2007...

IronFisk
11-19-2007, 01:11 PM
I like this move. IMO - Garland will never rise to the ranks of an "ace" - I believe we can fill his spot and save a ****load of cash in the process. We get a solid hitting & fielding SS in return - everyday help.

I also expect another move as well. Stay tuned...

pudge
11-19-2007, 01:12 PM
Anyone get the feeling this is Kenny's new Omar Vizquel? Kenny seems to get "stuck" on having a certain player and just can't shake it. (Alomar & Everett redux, anyone?) He was clearly bent on getting a mid-30s SS with a solid defensive background.

I just don't know where he plans on getting pitching in this awful market.

soltrain21
11-19-2007, 01:12 PM
Not sure what will come of this but... I AM CRYIN NOW...IN HIGH SCHOOL!!! :whiner::whiner::whiner:

Wow. I think it'll be okay, guy.

Domeshot17
11-19-2007, 01:12 PM
[quote=RockJock07;1725056] Garland was lights out two seasons ago but last season was a average pitcher. quote]

He was an average pitcher last year because he didn't get any run support for our offense.


Both of you are wrong. In 2007 he had better numbers everywhere but W/L

Garland is good because of innings, but because of his ERA and WHIP.

I have said this a bunch of times, we can't keep building our pitching through trades. At some point Danks-Gio-Broadway-Floyd etc. have to work their way in. Its happening with the Yankees, Red Sox, Indians, Angels, etc. They are getting nice contributions from their draft picks and kids. We have to start having the same thing happen.

Broadway I am thinking will be our 5th starter next year. He seems to have a good frame and endurance to throw 180 IP. Danks has to make a big stride forward to be our number 4, but Burls is a great 1, Javy a capable 2, Contreras if hes good is a fine 3, Danks could be a good 4 and Broadway at 5. It has the makings of a GOOD rotation, but these kids eventually have to get a shot.

RockJock07
11-19-2007, 01:12 PM
We'll see.

We traded a solid starter in the prime of his career for a 32-year old short stop that had a career year.

I'm not saying Cabrera is a bad player, but I'd rather have Garland.

We'll see...

I'd rather have a consistant Garland, but after two very good seasons, he resorted back to the old Jon Garland.

Since OC has been in LA he's played over 141 games each season, and increased his BA, Runs, Hits, RBI, and OBP from the season before. There's no doubt that he wouldn't increase his power numbers hitting in the Cell, plus OC has committed 34 errors to Uribe's 47 over the same strech. This is a very good trade but other moves must be made.

Flight #24
11-19-2007, 01:13 PM
IMO it's simple. First Uribe - he was picked up because they weren't sure if they could get a Cabrera in trade and they had to make the call before they could figure it out. Ideally you wouldn't have picked up Juan, but you had to or risk having Ozuna/Gonzalez/Richar at SS.

As for this trade, a good but not great SP making $12M in his last year for a good but not great SS making $10M (and less based on the cash they're sending back) in his last year. Makes sense to me. Yes, SPs are generally worth more, but the difference in $$$ makes that up. Look at it as Garland for Cabrera and a reliever assuming they spend the $$$ difference on someone for the 'pen.

Next move should be IMO Rowand, not Hunter (I don't like his contract length or cost given the relative value). Then sign a vet retread SP or 2 for Loaiza-like lottery potential.

Edit: Another thing they seem to be doing is buying time to rebuild the farm. So you have Cabrera for a year (and maybe you can extend him not too expensively), which lets you develop some guys like Fields to step in in a year or 2.

itsnotrequired
11-19-2007, 01:13 PM
Good grief, lots of knee-jerking in this thread.

a. Uribe had to be resigned at the time. It was either that or lose him.

b. More moves are coming. Calm down.

tstrike2000
11-19-2007, 01:14 PM
Two obvious cons are now we're minus a starter and Cabrera's 33 years old. Cabrera does fill a hole in the interim, but not the long haul. Now we're forced to use Contreras and Floyd as it stands now. On the flipside if Danks or Floyd can come into Garland's spot and keep their ERA around 4.50 or so, that wouldn't be too far away from Garland's career ERA.

chisoxmike
11-19-2007, 01:14 PM
I'd rather have a consistant Garland, but after two very good seasons, he resorted back to the old Jon Garland.



I think that's a bit extreme.

russ99
11-19-2007, 01:15 PM
I think that KW could be throwing the towel in for this year, saving a little money and letting these homegrowns show their worth, and will pounce back in, make some big moves a year from now. Maybe it's not a bad idea?

This deal and an accompanying CF signing certainly don't mean throwing in the towel to me. It means the first moves in returning to contention.

Glad you mentioned Ozuna, as if he comes back healthy to backup Fields and Richar (any word on his rehab?), the Sox are sure to jettison Uribe.

Actually my main concern isn't CF or SP, as Kenny will do something to add a pitcher, it's LF and leadoff.

I very much doubt Pods will come back, and I'd love Jason Bay - but he's not a leadoff guy. Maybe we'd be stuck with Jerry Owens? The only problem is with Cabrera now at #2 (he's not a leadoff hitter), that's too formidable a lineup after him to depend on Owens to get on base all the time.

Maybe we'd go with Crisp in LF, as much as I can't stand the guy. Since the Red Sox may not be able to keep Lowell, we could deal Crede for Crisp, Delcarmen or Timlin and maybe another prospect thrown in on either side for balance.

Lip Man 1
11-19-2007, 01:15 PM
Guillen:

What you say makes some sense however in this market especially after 2005, the Sox can not afford to come out and say anything along these lines.

Attendance would sink like a stone. It would be a financial disaster.

If the Sox are going to try to do this they would have to be very, very discreet about it.

The issue with that approach, is that fans would see right through it (for that matter based on his quote about "lying to the fans," so would Ozzie) and you could get the same result, a dramatic drop in attendance.

In the long term it might be best for the team to 'give up' so to speak the 2008 season especially in this division, but the other factors involved make that impossible. They'll be roasted by the fans and media.

With no immediate minor league help available and a limited budget, I don't see how Kenny can make this work but we'll see.

Lip

palehozenychicty
11-19-2007, 01:16 PM
[quote=Elvisfan1977;1725077]


Both of you are wrong. In 2007 he had better numbers everywhere but W/L

Garland is good because of innings, but because of his ERA and WHIP.

I have said this a bunch of times, we can't keep building our pitching through trades. At some point Danks-Gio-Broadway-Floyd etc. have to work their way in. Its happening with the Yankees, Red Sox, Indians, Angels, etc. They are getting nice contributions from their draft picks and kids. We have to start having the same thing happen.

Broadway I am thinking will be our 5th starter next year. He seems to have a good frame and endurance to throw 180 IP. Danks has to make a big stride forward to be our number 4, but Burls is a great 1, Javy a capable 2, Contreras if hes good is a fine 3, Danks could be a good 4 and Broadway at 5. It has the makings of a GOOD rotation, but these kids eventually have to get a shot.


Exactly. The young guys need a chance to throw, once and for all. I like Jon Garland, but they needed a player like Cabrera with multidimensional skills. Applause so far from me.

Mr. White Sox
11-19-2007, 01:16 PM
Sure, when trading Garland for Cabrera in terms of projectable future seasons, Garland probably wins out just because he's younger. In terms of salary, both players are FA after this year and one makes 4mil less, which KW will probably use to either push Hunter or sign a veteran pitcher. And talent? Cabrera is so much better than Uribe it's not even funny. You can put him at the #2 spot, move Richar to #9, and defensively he's stellar.

I personally love this trade, and re-signing Cabrera would be a bonus.

soltrain21
11-19-2007, 01:16 PM
I love the fact that everybody is going to be pissed off next year at Broadway by saying that we should have never traded Garland. The irony is that we went through the same exact growing pains with Garland. Easily the most frustrating pitcher I've ever witnessed.

doublem23
11-19-2007, 01:17 PM
With no immediate minor league help available and a limited budget, I don't see how Kenny can make this work but we'll see.



Voodoo dolls, and lots of them!

MCHSoxFan
11-19-2007, 01:18 PM
:thumbsup:Kenny.

Ok folks lets be real about things. Jon Garland was a number 3 starter. We have a glaring need at both shortstop and a number 2 hitter. We just filled both of those needs with a gold glove, 300 hitting 30 steals a year shortstop. We have young pitching on the verge with broadway and gio. It is still November, KW has got more to come. The infield in crowded, crede or fields will be on the move.


Loved Jon Garland while he was here, but the 2008 sox are now a better team. Whats next kenny?

Starting to make me feel better!!! :smile:

Foulke You
11-19-2007, 01:19 PM
Two obvious cons are now we're minus a starter and Cabrera's 33 years old.
As pointed out earlier in the thread, Cabrera is not signed long term so the fact that he is 33 years old is meaningless. If he had 4 years left on his contract, you might have something to worry about but he only has 1 year on his contract so age isn't really a factor.

the1tab
11-19-2007, 01:20 PM
Who's next? and how soon do other White Sox dominoes fall?

and which arm does this free up (cough... Ervin Santana... cough) for the Angels to make another play in the trade market (Miguel Cabrera)??

Finally, does this move put Richar on the block?

JermaineDye05
11-19-2007, 01:21 PM
As much as I loved Jon and his 18 wins I like this trade and can understand why we didn't get so much for him. Although he won 18 games back to back, he's coming off a year where he was 3 games under .500 and now he has one year left on his contract and will probably command a lot of money in 2008. Now I'm not one to call players overrated and I'm sure ERA is probably an overrated stat and only wins matter. Jon has only had 2 years with an ERA under 4 2001 and 2005. last year his ERA was 4.23, 2006 it was 4.51, 2005 3.50, 2004 4.89, 2003 4.51, 2002 4.58, 2001 3.69, 2000 6.46.

Also in only 3 of those years he was over .500, the rest of the years he was either a game or 2 under .500 or .500. Thanks for the world series Jon and I wish you success with your new team. Welcome Orlando Cabrera.

Now I have 2 questions.

1) What will Torii think about this move by Kenny. With this help sway him to the team or will it do the opposite.

2) What the hell is Hawk's nickname going to be for Cabrera. :D:

Foulke You
11-19-2007, 01:22 PM
Anyone get the feeling this is Kenny's new Omar Vizquel? Kenny seems to get "stuck" on having a certain player and just can't shake it. (Alomar & Everett redux, anyone?) He was clearly bent on getting a mid-30s SS with a solid defensive background.

I just don't know where he plans on getting pitching in this awful market.
Robbie Alomar and Omar Vizquel were all well past their prime by the time KW came sniffing around them. Orlando Cabrera is only 32, not 40+ like Vizquel and not 36 like Robbie Alomar was. Cabera is also coming off his finest season and seems like a player in his prime, not a player on the decline like Alomar and Vizquel so I don't think this is a fair comparison.

JermaineDye05
11-19-2007, 01:22 PM
Who's next? and how soon do other White Sox dominoes fall?

and which arm does this free up (cough... Ervin Santana... cough) for the Angels to make another play in the trade market (Miguel Cabrera)??

Finally, does this move put Richar on the block?

I think the move puts Uribe on the block. Although I can't imagine who would want him.

thomas35forever
11-19-2007, 01:23 PM
I like this move. It gives us a leadoff hitter for next year. As long as Uribe doesn't start at second, I'll be happy. All of you doomsayers feel free to step over the ledge.

mjmcend
11-19-2007, 01:23 PM
IMO it's simple. First Uribe - he was picked up because they weren't sure if they could get a Cabrera in trade and they had to make the call before they could figure it out. Ideally you wouldn't have picked up Juan, but you had to or risk having Ozuna/Gonzalez/Richar at SS.

As for this trade, a good but not great SP making $12M in his last year for a good but not great SS making $10M (and less based on the cash they're sending back) in his last year. Makes sense to me. Yes, SPs are generally worth more, but the difference in $$$ makes that up. Look at it as Garland for Cabrera and a reliever assuming they spend the $$$ difference on someone for the 'pen.

Next move should be IMO Rowand, not Hunter (I don't like his contract length or cost given the relative value). Then sign a vet retread SP or 2 for Loaiza-like lottery potential.

Edit: Another thing they seem to be doing is buying time to rebuild the farm. So you have Cabrera for a year (and maybe you can extend him not too expensively), which lets you develop some guys like Fields to step in in a year or 2.

Fields will never play shortstop. And we don't have any other prospects that will be ready in 09.

voodoochile
11-19-2007, 01:24 PM
Exactly. The young guys need a chance to throw, once and for all. I like Jon Garland, but they needed a player like Cabrera with multidimensional skills. Applause so far from me.

In addition, signing Cabrera long term will be a lot easier and a lot less expensive than signing Jon Garland long term. I actually expect the Sox to announce an extension before the season starts.

eriqjaffe
11-19-2007, 01:24 PM
So does this mean we're not going to go after David Eckstein?

RockJock07
11-19-2007, 01:26 PM
I think that's a bit extreme.

No it's really not. JG had two great seasons in 05 and 06. 07 he was under .500 and his ERA was in 4.23 which is closer to his career ERA. After cutting down on his walks in those two great years, they were back up in 07. Yes he pitched alot of innings but he also pitched almost 200 inninng in 02-03 and 217 in 04. look i'm not saying that JG wasn't money in those years but as many have done on this site before, we overvalue our guys base on a couple of years, not the whole body of work. If this was Mark instead of Jon, then i could understand your thinking but JG was great then resorted back towards his career numbers.

Kenny will bring in someone else, but lets not make JG anymore then he is. A very durable, solid pitcher who OVERALL has average career numbers.

mjmcend
11-19-2007, 01:27 PM
:thumbsup:Kenny.

Ok folks lets be real about things. Jon Garland was a number 3 starter. We have a glaring need at both shortstop and a number 2 hitter. We just filled both of those needs with a gold glove, 300 hitting 30 steals a year shortstop. We have young pitching on the verge with broadway and gio. It is still November, KW has got more to come. The infield in crowded, crede or fields will be on the move.


Loved Jon Garland while he was here, but the 2008 sox are now a better team. Whats next kenny?

Cabrera has only hit .300 once in his 10 year career and has never stolen 30 bases.

esbrechtel
11-19-2007, 01:27 PM
I love the fact that everybody is going to be pissed off next year at Broadway by saying that we should have never traded Garland. The irony is that we went through the same exact growing pains with Garland. Easily the most frustrating pitcher I've ever witnessed.

Couldn't have said it better myself....I have never been a huge garland supporter....I for one will never forget those games against KC where he let them put up between 5 and 10 runs in the first inning....

spiffie
11-19-2007, 01:27 PM
In addition, signing Cabrera long term will be a lot easier and a lot less expensive than signing Jon Garland long term. I actually expect the Sox to announce an extension before the season starts.
Do we want to sign him long term? The thought of spending $40-50 million to make sure we have a 37 yr old SS in 2011 sounds even less appealing than this trade does. Because yes, he might be cheaper than Garland, but he's not going to come cheap.

PIERCE
11-19-2007, 01:28 PM
Why Kenny?

SoxSpeed22
11-19-2007, 01:28 PM
Practical move by KW, he probably couldn't resign Garland, and we don't know if that knot in his shoulder will get better. Cabrera is a good fundamental player, something the Sox didn't have last year. He should be a sure-handed shortstop with talent and bat second.

mjmcend
11-19-2007, 01:28 PM
As pointed out earlier in the thread, Cabrera is not signed long term so the fact that he is 33 years old is meaningless. If he had 4 years left on his contract, you might have something to worry about but he only has 1 year on his contract so age isn't really a factor.

His age is a factor because he is not likely to get any better this year. And the fact that we have a hole at short in 09 is a factor too.

russ99
11-19-2007, 01:28 PM
Cabrera has only hit .300 once in his 10 year career and has never stolen 30 bases.

Splitting hairs. Look at his lines for the last 3 years, they're really good.

I think we can expect a gold-glove quality shortstop at .285-300 and 18-30 SBs. A heck of a #2 guy, but we still need that elusive high .OBP leadoff man, and unless Eckstein's back on the radar (doubtful) he's going to have to come from CF or LF.

Pequod
11-19-2007, 01:32 PM
A heck of a #2 guy, but we still need that elusive high .OBP leadoff man, and unless Eckstein's back on the radar (doubtful) he's going to have to come from CF or LF.

With Hunter or Rowand in CF being most likely, hate to say it but I think you'll see Owens in LF and leading off. Crede and Uribe are likely on the block for some bullpen help at this point.

voodoochile
11-19-2007, 01:32 PM
Do we want to sign him long term? The thought of spending $40-50 million to make sure we have a 37 yr old SS in 2011 sounds even less appealing than this trade does. Because yes, he might be cheaper than Garland, but he's not going to come cheap.

Why? Are you actually saying that a 37 YO player cannot perform? Good lord, just because a guy is past 35 doesn't mean he is going to suck.:rolleyes:

In fact, SS tend to play better longer because they tend to be the best athlete on the team.

If the Sox could lock up Cabrera on a 4 year extension they'd have 4 years to develop of find another SS and if they end up eating the final year of the contract, they'd still be better off than they will be trying ton find another new SS next fall.

The whole, "I don't want to pay that much money 5 years from now" argument is simply ridiculous. If it's worth it for the next 4 years than you really don't worry about the 5th year. Heck by then, what are salaries going to be up to? What will the Sox payroll be in 2011? $150M? More? What will starting pitchers be getting? What will #2 batting gold glove SS be getting? Grow some stones, man...

BadBobbyJenks
11-19-2007, 01:33 PM
So does this mean we're not going to go after David Eckstein?


And my 2nd favorite part of the trade is now we dont even give eckstein a call.:bandance:


I wonder how many people who were furious about the uribe signing are also hating this deal. If we arent getting Carl Crawford or Miggy Cabrera its not enough.


As I said in the uribe thread, I would be shocked if we didnt land a shortstop somewhere else and here we go.

Now as for starters how about taking a flier one of the following:
Benson
Colon
Clement

itsnotrequired
11-19-2007, 01:33 PM
Couldn't have said it better myself....I have never been a huge garland supporter....I for one will never forget those games against KC where he let them put up between 5 and 10 runs in the first inning....

If by "games" you mean "game".

weareud
11-19-2007, 01:34 PM
Not sure what will come of this but... I AM CRYIN NOW...IN HIGH SCHOOL!!! :whiner::whiner::whiner:


Wow dude, you need to discover girls.

Jjav829
11-19-2007, 01:34 PM
Mixed feelings here. Garland was a good pitcher, though overrated by some around here. You had to think the Sox weren't going to give big contracts to both Buehrle and Garland. So once Buehrle signed, it seemed like it was only a matter of when, not if, Garland was gone.

I'm a big fan of Cabrera. Putting aside whether we got enough in return for a moment, I really like this addition. We can hopefully get rid of Uribe and Cabrera is a big upgrade at the SS position. We gained an above average hitter at shortstop, while not sacrificing defensively.

That said, I thought we could have received more in return for Garland. But I guess we don't really know what the market was like for his services.

This is definitely a blow to our rotation. We'll see what else KW has in store for the offseason...

rowand33
11-19-2007, 01:35 PM
I'm happy with this.

More moves will come people, the 2008 sox roster isn't set.

I've liked Cabrera for years.

We took care of our SS problem, and Uribe and Ozuna combined make a pretty nice insurance plan at 2B if Richar falls flat on his face next year.

I fully expect one reclamation project pitcher (Colon, Clement, Benson, etc) to be on the white sox next year. Danks and Floyd won't just be handed rotation spots.

I also really want that japanese reliever we're rumored to be in the running for.

tstrike2000
11-19-2007, 01:35 PM
As pointed out earlier in the thread, Cabrera is not signed long term so the fact that he is 33 years old is meaningless. If he had 4 years left on his contract, you might have something to worry about but he only has 1 year on his contract so age isn't really a factor.

So we trade a 1 for 1 ratio? It's not meaningless if they do decide to give Cabrera an extension. True Garland is probably gone after '08 plus some money is freed up for this year by trading him, but then after '08 we have a hole at SS if Cabrera departs. Then what, will Robert Valido be ready?

Sockinchisox
11-19-2007, 01:35 PM
KW was just on the score explaining things, highlights:

- He is going to try and sign OC long-term
- He is going to try and trade Uribe
- He has more big fish to get
- Torii is still a target.

Gammons Peter
11-19-2007, 01:37 PM
With Hunter or Rowand in CF being most likely, hate to say it but I think you'll see Owens in LF and leading off. Crede and Uribe are likely on the block for some bullpen help at this point.


There is nothing wrong with Owens, he might steal 70 bases. He had a good year for a rookie, I don't understand the hatin'

kba
11-19-2007, 01:37 PM
FWIW, a lot of Angels fans (http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ml-angels&tid=88021) think the Sox got the better of the deal.

downstairs
11-19-2007, 01:37 PM
KW was just on the score explaining things, highlights:

- He is going to try and sign OC long-term
- He is going to try and trade Uribe
- He has more big fish to get
- Torii is still a target.


Awesome. Look, we sucked last year. S-u-c-k-e-d! KW has to make big moves if anything is going to happen in 2008.

Pequod
11-19-2007, 01:38 PM
KW was just on the score explaining things, hightlight:

- He is going to try and sign OC long-term
- He is going to try and trade Uribe
- He has more big fish to get
- Torii is still a target.

To me, this seems to clarify KW's plan. He's going for strength up the middle. If he lands Torii Hunter or even Rowand, you've got Gold Gloves at short and CF, and Richar at 2nd. I think he'll then turn his focus to the bullpen, with maybe another SP like Benson or Colon.

Flight #24
11-19-2007, 01:38 PM
Fields will never play shortstop. And we don't have any other prospects that will be ready in 09.

By Fields I meant "other young players", not that Fields would step in at SS. I also meant that if they can resign Cabrera then that gives them 2-4 years to find an SS replacement. The point was that the theory seems to be "spend some $$$ to fill holes now, and in 2-4 years begin replacing those older players". Not a bad strategy given where the Sox are at with few young players ready.

mjmcend
11-19-2007, 01:39 PM
Splitting hairs. Look at his lines for the last 3 years, they're really good.

I think we can expect a gold-glove quality shortstop at .285-300 and 18-30 SBs. A heck of a #2 guy, but we still need that elusive high .OBP leadoff man, and unless Eckstein's back on the radar (doubtful) he's going to have to come from CF or LF.

His last 3 years his average stats are:

.280/.330/.388 and 23 steals.

Not bad from a great defensive shortstop but not 'really good' either. He is a good player and an upgrade from Uribe. But he is not enough of an upgrade to be worth throwing a ton of question marks in our rotation.

Plus in this pitching deprived market (who's the best free-agent starter? Silva?), I just feel we could have gotten something better. And I wish that something was one young player. We are turning into the Giants with less steroids.

Pequod
11-19-2007, 01:39 PM
There is nothing wrong with Owens, he might steal 70 bases. He had a good year for a rookie, I don't understand the hatin'

Not hate for Owens. I actually like the guy and wouldn't mind seeing him in LF. Just not sure he's the leadoff guy. Would love to be wrong on that one.

roadrunner
11-19-2007, 01:39 PM
Why? Are you actually saying that a 37 YO player cannot perform? Good lord, just because a guy is past 35 doesn't mean he is going to suck.:rolleyes:

In fact, SS tend to play better longer because they tend to be the best athlete on the team.

If the Sox could lock up Cabrera on a 4 year extension they'd have 4 years to develop of find another SS and if they end up eating the final year of the contract, they'd still be better off than they will be trying ton find another new SS next fall.

The whole, "I don't want to pay that much money 5 years from now" argument is simply ridiculous. If it's worth it for the next 4 years than you really don't worry about the 5th year. Heck by then, what are salaries going to be up to? What will the Sox payroll be in 2011? $150M? More? What will starting pitchers be getting? What will #2 batting gold glove SS be getting? Grow some stones, man...

How exactly does expecting a player's performance to decline as he ages into his thirties relate to "not having stones"?

spiffie
11-19-2007, 01:39 PM
Why? Are you actually saying that a 37 YO player cannot perform? Good lord, just because a guy is past 35 doesn't mean he is going to suck.:rolleyes:

In fact, SS tend to play better longer because they tend to be the best athlete on the team.

If the Sox could lock up Cabrera on a 4 year extension they'd have 4 years to develop of find another SS and if they end up eating the final year of the contract, they'd still be better off than they will be trying ton find another new SS next fall.

The whole, "I don't want to pay that much money 5 years from now" argument is simply ridiculous. If it's worth it for the next 4 years than you really don't worry about the 5th year. Heck by then, what are salaries going to be up to? What will the Sox payroll be in 2011? $150M? More? What will starting pitchers be getting? What will #2 batting gold glove SS be getting? Grow some stones, man...
It isn't that he's going to suck. The problem is that decline is damn near inevitable. Also, I don't think Cabrera is a player worth investing those resources in. I don't know what salaries will be in 2010, but I know that unless a stud SS comes along, I'd rather put the cash towards mega-contracts for players who can seriously change the makeup of a team, and take my chances with a mid-level SS, instead of making a significant investment in an above average but not high end player. Now if he'd take something a bit front loaded, so that if the production does slip, which it almost certainly will do, as unless you're Barry Bonds you don't tend to get more productive in your mid 30's, at least we'd be paying accordingly. But no, if I'm a GM in general I'm not feeling all that compelled to pay that kind of cash to a guy with a 273/321/403 career line. Use him for this year, get what you can from him, let someone else overpay him, and direct the resources elsewhere.

wdelaney72
11-19-2007, 01:39 PM
Expect Contreras to bounce back.

Absolutely.

1. We just upgraded a HUGE piece of our infield and lineup. A need was just filled, folks.
2. I love(d) Garland, but I have to think he was not interest an a reasonable contract extension and was going to leave after next year anyway.

I like this move... even if I'm in the minority.

Tragg
11-19-2007, 01:40 PM
This is an incredibly bad trade.
We get yet another Ozzie-style player. Swing at everything, just like Ozzie did. His OBPs before is .306, .298, .309 and .335. Oh yea, that will improve with Guillen and Walker. What a joke.
Exactly what the Sox did last year - load up with mediocre veterans. I understand it to an extent....with Ozzie managing the team, there is little point in trading for young players because he's incapable of developing them and often ruins them.


A starting pitcher for another mediocre veteran. Next we'll trade Fields for a middle reliever.

Domeshot17
11-19-2007, 01:40 PM
My buddy just emailed me with a fun thought although this is more a WTS speculation.
Maybe we are trying to get the wrong guy from Florida. Maybe coming off a down year we could package some prospects together for the D-Train. He is rumored to be possibly going to Detroit, and could be a good 3. 1-2-3- of Burls Javy Willis might be one of the best in the AL

Whitesox029
11-19-2007, 01:41 PM
As much as I loved Jon and his 18 wins I like this trade and can understand why we didn't get so much for him. Although he won 18 games back to back, he's coming off a year where he was 3 games under .500 and now he has one year left on his contract and will probably command a lot of money in 2008. Now I'm not one to call players overrated and I'm sure ERA is probably an overrated stat and only wins matter. Jon has only had 2 years with an ERA under 4 2001 and 2005. last year his ERA was 4.23, 2006 it was 4.51, 2005 3.50, 2004 4.89, 2003 4.51, 2002 4.58, 2001 3.69, 2000 6.46.

Also in only 3 of those years he was over .500, the rest of the years he was either a game or 2 under .500 or .500. Thanks for the world series Jon and I wish you success with your new team. Welcome Orlando Cabrera.

Now I have 2 questions.

1) What will Torii think about this move by Kenny. With this help sway him to the team or will it do the opposite.

2) What the hell is Hawk's nickname going to be for Cabrera. :D:
I think I agree with what you've said, but like most trades, this trade cannot be truly evaluated until spring training kicks in at the earliest, and we see what we're going to get out of Danks/Floyd. It also depends on whether we can get Cabrera signed to an extension right away like voodoo said.

I also think it's very silly that everyone rags on Kenny for signing Uribe, and then when he goes out and picks up another gold-glove caliber shortstop who actually gets on base every once in a while, we rag on him for that too. You can't compare career stats, because Uribe's numbers have gone down every year we've had him, since 2004. Cabrera, meanwhile, has seen his average jump in every one of those seasons, from .246 to .257 to .282 to .301 in '07. Not to mention the strikeouts: Cabrera has 493 Ks in 5301 career at-bats. That's one strikeout every 10.7 at-bats. Uribe, on the other hand, has 602 Ks in 3114 at-bats, one K every 5.2 at-bats.

In regards to the nickname...I heard the Angels' announcer call him "The Wizard of OC" but I don't think that'll work anymore...how about "Wizard of CC?" :D:

MCHSoxFan
11-19-2007, 01:41 PM
Why don't some of you Sox fans finally realize that you look at the sum of ALL the trades and moves in the off-season when you wake up April 1st.

First game is 3/31/2008 :D:.

BadBobbyJenks
11-19-2007, 01:42 PM
Cabrera has only hit .300 once in his 10 year career and has never stolen 30 bases.


Yea I just went back and edited my post I meant to put 20 steals, typo.

It's Time
11-19-2007, 01:42 PM
Kenny, you got :

http://www.jgbhose.com/images/layflat/jpg/full/6.jpg

Pitching, Kenny. Or did you already forget about 2005?

spiffie
11-19-2007, 01:43 PM
This is an incredibly bad trade.
We get yet another Ozzie-style player. Swing at everything, just like Ozzie did. His OBPs before is .306, .298, .309 and .335. Oh yea, that will improve with Guillen and Walker. What a joke.
Exactly what the Sox did last year - load up with mediocre veterans. I understand it to an extent....with Ozzie managing the team, there is little point in trading for young players because he's incapable of developing them and often ruins them.


A starting pitcher for another mediocre veteran. Just incredible.
Yup, look at the young players Guillen has ruined: Jenks, Fields, Richar, Danks. Oh wait, you're referring to the kid who apparently didn't like to prepare and couldn't hit his way out of a paper bag. My bad.

oeo
11-19-2007, 01:43 PM
I love this deal. Gold Glove SS + #2 hitter, for a #3 starter that will get overpaid after this year.

:bandance:

mjmcend
11-19-2007, 01:44 PM
I love this deal. Gold Glove SS + #2 hitter, for a #3 starter that will get overpaid after this year.

:bandance:

You forgot the fact that the SS will get overpaid after this year too.

bumptious987
11-19-2007, 01:44 PM
This move indicates Kenny is going for broke next year. I'm fully expecting Uribe to be gone as well as Crede whenever another club is convinced he's recovered from surgery.

I think this move also shows how much confidence Kenny has in his young starters he's drafted/acquired the past couple years, which is a good or bad thing depending on how you feel about Kenny's ability to evaluate pitching talent.

I think Hunter or Rowand will be in our CF w/ Owens in LF and leading off.

If one of those two is signed don't be surprised if Thome or even Pauly is traded. If they aren't our lineup will be impressive next year. Put them wherever you'd like:

1. Owens
2. Cabrera
3. Dye
4. Pauly
5. Thome
6. Hunter/Rowand
7. Fields
8. AJ
9. Richar

It remains to be seen if Kenny has the $ or players to get enough bullpen help for next year, thats why I wouldn't be surprised if Thome or Konerko are traded.

It's Time
11-19-2007, 01:45 PM
I love this deal. Gold Glove SS + #2 hitter, for a #3 starter that will get overpaid after this year.

:bandance:

LOL! Yes, no need for a quality pitcher like Garland on the staff for 2008.:roflmao:

chisoxfanatic
11-19-2007, 01:46 PM
Well, this just makes one want to puke, considering the starting rotation already wasn't looking the greatest prior to this deal. I guess they're sold on Broadway starting next season, which I was thinking would be able to happen, just not this soon. It's gonna be one wild season in 2008. I'm envisioning an even worse season than this past one. :(

MCHSoxFan
11-19-2007, 01:46 PM
I'd go with:

1. Buehrle
2. Vazquez
3. Trade or FA acqusition (patience people, Kenny knows there's a hole now)
4. Danks
5. Gio

Yeah, I think you are right. Kenny most likely knows what he is doing. He knows there is a hole in the pitching.

Crede_Fan
11-19-2007, 01:47 PM
Here's hoping Uribe gets traded. Otherwise I think it'll mean the end of Joe Crede with the Sox. If Uribe stays, I see him playing the role he played in 2004, replacing Cintron as the 2b/ss/3b utility guy.


I like the trade other than I'll miss Jon. Won't miss the arm tightness that he had suffered in the last 2 seasons, but will miss everything else he did for the Sox in his time here.

MrRoboto83
11-19-2007, 01:47 PM
I'm glad Garland is gone, he was a good pitcher, but personally I didn't like him or his attitude.

nccwsfan
11-19-2007, 01:48 PM
Absolutely.

1. We just upgraded a HUGE piece of our infield and lineup. A need was just filled, folks.
2. I love(d) Garland, but I have to think he was not interest an a reasonable contract extension and was going to leave after next year anyway.

I like this move... even if I'm in the minority.

I'm with you. My opinion, but Garland wasn't going to come back after 08' and they've now made a nice upgrade at SS. Most teams recognize Garland's contract situation and weren't going to give up the farm to rent him for one season- I'm on record with this being a good move.

Fix the bullpen Kenny.

chisoxmike
11-19-2007, 01:49 PM
I love this deal. Gold Glove SS + #2 hitter, for a #3 starter that will get overpaid after this year.

:bandance:

:bandance:

oeo spreads his Garland hate...

voodoochile
11-19-2007, 01:49 PM
How exactly does expecting a player's performance to decline as he ages into his thirties relate to "not having stones"?

No, I mean have the stones to take a risk 5 years from now when you know that it will help the team for the next 4 years and might or might not hurt them in the 5th year. Anyone who expects Cabrera to take a major turn for the worse over the next 4 seasons seems to be unwilling to take any chances and unfortunately, that's not the way this game is played. You have to take a chance if you want to be a good team unless you can afford payroll like the Yankees or BoSox.

It isn't that he's going to suck. The problem is that decline is damn near inevitable. Also, I don't think Cabrera is a player worth investing those resources in. I don't know what salaries will be in 2010, but I know that unless a stud SS comes along, I'd rather put the cash towards mega-contracts for players who can seriously change the makeup of a team, and take my chances with a mid-level SS, instead of making a significant investment in an above average but not high end player. Now if he'd take something a bit front loaded, so that if the production does slip, which it almost certainly will do, as unless you're Barry Bonds you don't tend to get more productive in your mid 30's, at least we'd be paying accordingly. But no, if I'm a GM in general I'm not feeling all that compelled to pay that kind of cash to a guy with a 273/321/403 career line. Use him for this year, get what you can from him, let someone else overpay him, and direct the resources elsewhere.

You don't think Cabrera is worth a 4 year 40-50M contract extension? How much would you pay him to ensure the SS situation is solve through the end of the decade? He sounds like a guy you could sign long term and fix a hole that has been around for a long time for the Sox (since Ozzie left? (Other than Uribe's career year in 2005)).

It's Time
11-19-2007, 01:49 PM
:KW

"I can't wait for Sox fest" :rolleyes:

chisoxmike
11-19-2007, 01:50 PM
Why don't some of you Sox fans finally realize that you look at the sum of ALL the trades and moves in the off-season when you wake up April 1st.

First game is 3/31/2008 :D:.

:?:

You just said you were crying in class a while ago.

oeo
11-19-2007, 01:51 PM
You forgot the fact that the SS will get overpaid after this year too.

I actually didn't realize he was a FA after this year. Not sure how I feel about it now...

D. TODD
11-19-2007, 01:51 PM
Well, this is a trade that is curious for both teams on the surface. It should just be the starting point for both teams to make more moves fairly quickly now and then each teams fanbase will have a better idea if they like the overall moves. Cabrera is SOLID and as a gold glove middle infielder, with speed, and contact ability at the plate he fits a lot of needs for the Sox. Garland should of had good value with this poor free agent market for hurlers though. We save money and get money considerations from the Angels, so that may make it easier to get our centerfielder through free agency as well. I can definitely live with this deal, let's hope Kenny has some nice things set up from here on out.

otis
11-19-2007, 01:51 PM
John Garland straight up for a middle infielder?? Never saw that one coming!!

voodoochile
11-19-2007, 01:52 PM
This is an incredibly bad trade.
We get yet another Ozzie-style player. Swing at everything, just like Ozzie did. His OBPs before is .306, .298, .309 and .335. Oh yea, that will improve with Guillen and Walker. What a joke.
Exactly what the Sox did last year - load up with mediocre veterans. I understand it to an extent....with Ozzie managing the team, there is little point in trading for young players because he's incapable of developing them and often ruins them.


A starting pitcher for another mediocre veteran. Next we'll trade Fields for a middle reliever.

:prozac

:therapy:

RockJock07
11-19-2007, 01:52 PM
We still have pieces to trade like Thome and Konerko, more pitching will come, but we needed a fundamentally sound SS and a guy who has some speed.

I also expect KW to re-sign OC now that he has him.

This is a good starting off point for Kenny. This isn't the last trade and I like where this off-season is going already.

chisoxmike
11-19-2007, 01:52 PM
John Garland straight up for a middle infielder?? Never saw that one coming!!

:tealtutor:

Jjav829
11-19-2007, 01:52 PM
Here's hoping Uribe gets traded. Otherwise I think it'll mean the end of Joe Crede with the Sox. If Uribe stays, I see him playing the role he played in 2004, replacing Cintron as the 2b/ss/3b utility guy.


I like the trade other than I'll miss Jon. Won't miss the arm tightness that he had suffered in the last 2 seasons, but will miss everything else he did for the Sox in his time here.

I think both of them could be gone. There is no need for Uribe on the bench, so now it's just a matter of finding a suc...err, team to take him.

And I think the addition of Cabrera could make trading Crede more likely, especially if KW plans to lock up Cabrera long-term. A left side with Uribe and Fields has two question marks. Replace Uribe with Cabrera and now it's only one question mark.

I know it wouldn't be a post-Sox trade thread without a bunch of overreaction and at least one person calling for KW's head/declaring the season over, but let's give KW an opportunity to finish his plan. There will probably be quite a few more moves. KW is probably still chasing Hunter/Rowand. He'll likely trade Uribe, though that will be more of a salary dump with little talent coming back our way. Crede could still possibly be moved if some GM feels like taking a risk (and there's always one who will). And who knows what else KW has in mind.

doublem23
11-19-2007, 01:53 PM
:?:

You just said you were crying in class a while ago.

:prozac

It really does work, apparently.

SoxSpeed22
11-19-2007, 01:53 PM
Awesome. Look, we sucked last year. S-u-c-k-e-d! KW has to make big moves if anything is going to happen in 2008.Even though this will be tougher on the rotation, there are young guys that can step in.

http://stanward.net/content/BlackMage.gif
"Well, you can't make an omelette without uh, destroying a forest, or something..."

oeo
11-19-2007, 01:53 PM
:bandance:

oeo spreads his Garland hate...

chisoxmike shows his ignorance again.

How many times do I have to say that I don't hate Garland? I just don't think he's worth the money Buehrle got, and he thinks he is.

anewman35
11-19-2007, 01:53 PM
Really don't get some of you people. Everybody was desperate for an upgrade at shortstop, and Kenny did that. How else did you expect that to happen? There didn't seem to be much of use on the free agent market. And, yes, we downgraded our rotation, but at least there are a lot more options there (from our prospects, trades, and free agents) than there were at short. And, anyway, even if we did lose this trade (and I don't think we did), this shakes up the team a lot. Did you really want the same team coming back after last year?

FedEx227
11-19-2007, 01:54 PM
We still have pieces to trade like Thome and Konerko, more pitching will come, but we needed a fundamentally sound SS and a guy who has some speed.

I also expect KW to re-sign OC now that he has him.

This is a good starting off point for Kenny. This isn't the last trade and I like where this off-season is going already.

I would not consider Thome a "trade piece" contract, overall skill and age means he's going to be here for life. Not too often people make deals for a DH in the twilight of his career, no matter how potent he still is.

TomBradley72
11-19-2007, 01:55 PM
Not thrilled with the trade...seems like a talent like Garland could bring more back in return (especially since Cabrera amounts to a 1 year player based on his contract)...but I'm willing to wait and see how the whole winter and KW's "plan" unfolds.

Personally....the KW as "Chuck Norris" threads seem like ancient history to me and my confidence in him is waivering. 2005 was incredible...but overall he has delivered ONE post season appearance in seven seasons as GM, and has a very mediocre farm system (after 10 years + of being the GM or the head of player development).

We don't really seem to have core strategy/philosophy...it was starting pitching...but our rotation is mediocre as it currently stands, it was "small ball/Ozzieball", but we're one of the slowest teams in MLB, it was great defense, but our outfield defense (Dye + ???), infield defense (Fields? Richar? Konerko?) are nothing to rave about. Dye, Konerko, Cabrera, AJ, Thome are all moving towards (or are already in) the "aging veteran" category.

If KW can't pull this off over the winter...we could be looking at several years of mediocrity before it turns around.

It's Time
11-19-2007, 01:55 PM
Really don't get some of you people. Everybody was desperate for an upgrade at shortstop, and Kenny did that. How else did you expect that to happen? There didn't seem to be much of use on the free agent market. And, yes, we downgraded our rotation, but at least there are a lot more options there (from our prospects, trades, and free agents) than there were at short. And, anyway, even if we did lose this trade (and I don't think we did), this shakes up the team a lot. Did you really want the same team coming back after last year?

You never, EVER weaken a starting pitching staff to get a slight upgrade to what you had in the field already.

Bad trade.

PalehosePlanet
11-19-2007, 01:55 PM
No chance of a trade? I also read in WTS that there are several retread pitchers who are coming off of injuries who seem like just the type of players KW likes to sign. Clement, Benson or Colon could be signed cheap with an incentive laden contract to be the #4 pitcher and then only one young pitcher has to perform with tons of guys to back him up if he fails.

Expect Contreras to bounce back.

I agree with you on Contreras. From May to early August he was throwing 88 instead of 95 and was getting hammered. However, when he returned to the rotation after a brief stint in the pen he was throwing 91-92 and became a tough pitcher again.

Let's put it another way: I don't believe in paying players to play elsewhere as we would have to do w/Jose. Then, if he turns it around we are paying him to help someone else win games. No thanks. Besides, we will not have 11 or 12 better pitchers than him in '08.

Also, FWIW, I saw alot of potential in Floyd down the stretch last year. I'm amazed that most here will not allow him some growing pains. He's still a kid.

chisoxmike
11-19-2007, 01:56 PM
chisoxmike shows his ignorance again.

How many times do I have to say that I don't hate Garland? I just don't think he's worth the money Buehrle got, and he thinks he is.

Well, I say you pay a guy like Garland, you think otherwise.

Oh well...

NSSoxFan
11-19-2007, 01:56 PM
Bad trade.

...says the MLB GM.

spiffie
11-19-2007, 01:56 PM
No, I mean have the stones to take a risk 5 years from now when you know that it will help the team for the next 4 years and might or might not hurt them in the 5th year. Anyone who expects Cabrera to take a major turn for the worse over the next 4 seasons seems to be unwilling to take any chances and unfortunately, that's not the way this game is played. You have to take a chance if you want to be a good team unless you can afford payroll like the Yankees or BoSox.



You don't think Cabrera is worth a 4 year 40-50M contract extension? How much would you pay him to ensure the SS situation is solve through the end of the decade? He sounds like a guy you could sign long term and fix a hole that has been around for a long time for the Sox (since Ozzie left? (Other than Uribe's career year in 2005)).
No, I don't think he's worth a 50M extension. Not for a team that has as many holes and question marks as the Sox have. If they were one piece away, I might say sure, go for it. But I don't like our chances this coming year. We're banking on a ton of guys to come through, and it isn't likely all of them will. Also, we're already on the hook for some big deals through the end of the decade. If those young kids don't pan out, then we have a lot of holes and not a ton of cash to fill them.

I feel like the way major league salaries are now, I'd rather save the cash, put a superstar at one position, and hope for a low-price player to come through at another, than to put 2 decent players out there at 10-11 million each. For instance, I know it couldn't have happened, but I would have rather seen the Sox with A-Rod and Owens than Hunter and Cabrera. I think baseball is moving towards a model of cheap young players and a few major pieces, so I'd like to maximize those pieces, instead of trying to spread things around as much as possible.

TheVulture
11-19-2007, 01:58 PM
Just thinking in terms of Uribe visa vi this trade. In the likely event of a Crede trade, you've got Fields at 3b and Richar at 2b, both making minimum salary. As I recall from Juan's first year here, he also plays a pretty snappy thirdbase. If Crede is gone, maybe its not such a bad idea having Uribe around at 4.5 mil. So you're basically paying, with Cabrera's contract, about 15 mil for your 2b, 3b, SS and primary backup to all three positions. Not too shabby, if you ask me, especially when your backup is gold-glove caliber and probably looking to force his way into the lineup in a contract year. I say keep Uribe around to keep Fields and Richar on their toes and give Ozzie an option on the bench that can throw some leather at these important positions.

Sockinchisox
11-19-2007, 01:59 PM
I actually didn't realize he was a FA after this year. Not sure how I feel about it now...

KW said on the Score that he's going to discuss a long-term deal with OC.

It's Time
11-19-2007, 01:59 PM
...says the MLB GM.




You don't need to be a GM to state the obvious. Pitching wins.

oeo
11-19-2007, 01:59 PM
Well, I say you pay a guy like Garland, you think otherwise.

Oh well...

Garland isn't even close to the pitcher that Mark Buehrle is. He had one year that made him look like he was as good, other than that he's been mediocre.

Somehow that's worth the same amount of money? :?:

Garland will probably go down as the most hated, and then the most-overrated Sox pitcher in their history.

churlish
11-19-2007, 02:00 PM
The Angels fans (from that link) are pissed because they think Garland is a good #4 pitcher, and many Sox fans are pissed because they think they gave up a good #2 pitcher.

Garland is good but replaceable. Although the Sox have had a bad run of young pitchers upon hitting the majors, that means very little on how Gio, Broadway, Floyd, etc. will do. There's a lot of talent there, and it's not unreasonable to have two young starters competing for a job, especially with a cheap, veteran competing for a spot. Just because Danks and another young pitcher are in the rotation, doesn't mean they can't compete for a playoff spot, considering KW has yet to improve the pen.

MrRoboto83
11-19-2007, 02:00 PM
KW said on the Score that he's going to discuss a long-term deal with OC.


I'm excited about this trade, I think it will be the best deal KW has worked out yet.

chisoxmike
11-19-2007, 02:00 PM
Garland isn't even close to the pitcher that Mark Buehrle is. He had one year that made him look like he was as good, other than that he's been mediocre.

Somehow that's worth the same amount of money? :?:

A guy that keeps you in games, throws 200+ innings a year, and doesn't get hurt. I'd say so.