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Bmr31
04-15-2002, 07:10 PM
Earlier i admitted Frank was one of the best hitters of all time, but..........this brings me to another issue. Is anyone else disgusted by his apparent selfishness and lack of leadership? If he could correct these two issues, the sox chances of winning it all would greatly improve....

rmusacch
04-15-2002, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Earlier i admitted Frank was one of the best hitters of all time, but..........this brings me to another issue. Is anyone else disgusted by his apparent selfishness and lack of leadership? If he could correct these two issues, the sox chances of winning it all would greatly improve....

I would like to see him exert more of a leadership role but if he hits and helps the team win, I don't care. Let his bat be the leader.

HawkDJ
04-15-2002, 07:19 PM
I think he has turned his attidute around this year after going through an injury and his father dying. He is more happy and less selfish. He also talked to all the pitchers during Spring Training, telling them not to get down by bad outings in the spring. He never was a leader, thats just not the way he is.

Bmr31
04-15-2002, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by HawkDJ2k2
I think he has turned his attidute around this year after going through an injury and his father dying. He is more happy and less selfish. He also talked to all the pitchers during Spring Training, telling them not to get down by bad outings in the spring. He never was a leader, thats just not the way he is.

Hmm well there are many ways to lead, couldnt he just pick one? :)

rmusacch
04-15-2002, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


Hmm well there are many ways to lead, couldnt he just pick one? :)

Just because he is the big homerun hitter, why do you guys insist he has to have a leadership role? I think with :manos, :walnuts and :lofton, we have more than enough leadership potential.

Bmr31
04-15-2002, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by rmusacch


Just because he is the big homerun hitter, why do you guys insist he has to have a leadership role? I think with :manos, :walnuts and :lofton, we have more than enough leadership potential.

ummm because hes a great hitter and a veteran, who, to my knowledge, has been with the team the longest?

hold2dibber
04-15-2002, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Earlier i admitted Frank was one of the best hitters of all time, but..........this brings me to another issue. Is anyone else disgusted by his apparent selfishness and lack of leadership? If he could correct these two issues, the sox chances of winning it all would greatly improve....

I agree, but I think he has corrected those two issues? Do you have any reason to believe that he has acted selfishly or has failed to provide leadership this year? All media reports so far suggest that he has been unselfish and providing solid leadership. I hope he keeps it up.

Paulwny
04-15-2002, 07:50 PM
Some guys can't or don't want the burden of being a leader.

Bmr31
04-15-2002, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Some guys can't or don't want the burden of being a leader.

aka....they'd rather worrry about themselves and dont really care about winning....

voodoochile
04-15-2002, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


aka....theyre rather worrry about themselves and dont really care about winning....

No, they just prefer to do their part and not tell other people how to act. This team is really a veteran team. All of the starting position players have been in the majors for at least 3 years and most of them with the Sox for that long or longer. Frank talked to Paulie the other day in the dugout when he was 0-16. He has been saying all the right things to the media and he was a leader in the 2000 campaign. I think you are reading something that isn't necessarily there. Maybe you have been reading too much Chicago media...

Paulwny
04-15-2002, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


aka....they'd rather worrry about themselves and dont really care about winning....

No, you can care about winning and still not be a leader, the military is an example. Some people can also feel uncomfortable if put in that position. Isn't there a saying "leaders are born, not made" ?

Bmr31
04-15-2002, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


No, they just prefer to do their part and not tell other people how to act. This team is really a veteran team. All of the starting position players have been in the majors for at least 3 years and most of them with the Sox for that long or longer. Frank talked to Paulie the other day in the dugout when he was 0-16. He has been saying all the right things to the media and he was a leader in the 2000 campaign. I think you are reading something that isn't necessarily there. Maybe you have been reading too much Chicago media...

i dont read chicago media and i gave the possibility that he has changed for the better, i sure hope so! :gulp:

Bmr31
04-15-2002, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny


No, you can care about winning and still not be a leader, the military is an example. Some people can also feel uncomfortable if put in that position. Isn't there a saying "leaders are born, not made" ?


yes. Excellent points. I just wonder how good the sox could be with Frank in the main leadership role......

Paulwny
04-15-2002, 08:12 PM
I think the young guns need a leader, a veteran pitcher who can ease the pain after a bad outing, someone to explain the art of pitching.
Agree with Voodoo, with the rest of the starters being vets a leadership role isn't all that necessary, until we run into a prolonged hitting slump.

Bmr31
04-15-2002, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I think the young guns need a leader, a veteran pitcher who can ease the pain after a bad outing, someone to explain the art of pitching.
Agree with Voodoo, with the rest of the starters being vets a leadership role isn't all that necessary, until we run into a prolonged hitting slump.

yup. Here is what i would do. Demote wright and go out and get a real #2 SP. someone BETTER than ritchie. Hes more like a #4 guy......so we would have 1. Buehrle 2. Veteran 3. Garland 4. Ritchie 5. Rauch. I would like that staff much much better.

Paulwny
04-15-2002, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


yup. Here is what i would do. Demote wright and go out and get a real #2 SP. someone BETTER than ritchie. Hes more like a #4 guy......so we would have 1. Buehrle 2. Veteran 3. Garland 4. Ritchie 5. Rauch. I would like that staff much much better.

I think KW thinks he has the vet in Ritchie, but do the young guns look up to him as a seasoned vet? I doubt it.

Bmr31
04-15-2002, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny


I think KW thinks he has the vet in Ritchie, but do the young guns look up to him as a seasoned vet? I doubt it.

nah. Ritchie is a little better than i thought, but he still is no better than a #4.......plus we need more than 1 veteran....

Daver
04-15-2002, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


nah. Ritchie is a little better than i thought, but he still is no better than a #4.......plus we need more than 1 veteran....

Where do you get a number two starter right now without overpaying in a big way? They would have to wait for the trade deadline and see who is dumping salary.

Mathew
04-15-2002, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



yes. Excellent points. I just wonder how good the sox could be with Frank in the main leadership role......

Ahhh... no farther along. Frank isn't taht type of player really so why would you want to play on one of his weaknesses? At least he is improving. That's like saying "I wonder how good we'd be if Royce was our best hitter, or how good would we be if Jose Valentin was a gold glover?" Frank has gotten better at leading than those two examples(a few among many) have shown improving their weaknesses, what do you raelly want?

voodoochile
04-16-2002, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31


yup. Here is what i would do. Demote wright and go out and get a real #2 SP. someone BETTER than ritchie. Hes more like a #4 guy......so we would have 1. Buehrle 2. Veteran 3. Garland 4. Ritchie 5. Rauch. I would like that staff much much better.

Yeah, everyone wanted another veteran starter (though most people expected Wright/Biddle/Parque to fight it out for #5). Still, this is what we have. Not only that, Wright has looked damn good in 2 of his 3 starts and I think he will have a very solid year. I also think he rubbed off on Garland and today we saw the results. Maybe that is too much to expect, but it sure looked like Jon was being more aggressive today and hitting his spots more consistently. If Rauch has a solid outing tomorrow, the Sox might end up with a very solid rotation by mid-June (even allowing for one of the young arms to falter and Parque or Biddle to step up and fill the slot).

Still don't understand why you think Wright is a bad pitcher his stuff is as good as anyone on the team and he has wicked movement. He is young and will be inconsistent until he learns to control his pitches better, but he is a fighter who has the potential to be a #2 pitcher (even a #1 if things go his way), IMO. But, it wouldn't be the first time you and I disagreed about something (with all the BMR love being passed around, I thought I'd disagree just to keep WSI interesting...) :D:

RedPinStripes
04-16-2002, 03:20 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31


ummm because hes a great hitter and a veteran, who, to my knowledge, has been with the team the longest?

:manos
"My perfect porn star mustache leads this team!"

Iwritecode
04-16-2002, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Earlier i admitted Frank was one of the best hitters of all time, but..........this brings me to another issue. Is anyone else disgusted by his apparent selfishness and lack of leadership? If he could correct these two issues, the sox chances of winning it all would greatly improve....

Not to start an arguement but how to you determine someone is selfish and not a leader without being on the team and in the clubhouse? The only thing we have to go by is what gets reported on by the media and the players comments through the media. So far I haven't heard anything but good about Frank. I even heard the other day that when Paulie finally broke his 0 - 16 streak and drove in the go ahead RBI against Baltimore, Frank was on second base clapping and made sure that he got Konerko's attention so that he could see Frank cheering for him.

I'm not sure what exactly you need to see to know that Frank is a leader.

WinningUgly!
04-16-2002, 11:06 AM
All Frank needs to do is lead by example. As long as he puts up "Frank Thomas numbers", that's all the leadership we should be asking for. He does give advise & pats on the back, I don't know how much more we could ask of him. It's not always easy for the "team star" to be be the vocal leader. Some guys can pull it off, some can not. For whatever reasons, Frank doesn't fall into this catagory. IMO, by Frank allowing guys like Lofton, Manos, Konerko, etc. to take on leadership roles, it speaks volumes on how much he's into "WE" & not "ME".

RichH55
04-16-2002, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31


nah. Ritchie is a little better than i thought, but he still is no better than a #4.......plus we need more than 1 veteran....


You sound like the guy who sat behind me on Sunday..."F**k KW" "Damn KW, he needs to go get us a pitcher" "DAMN...damn you KW....why dont you just get us Schilling!?!?!?"


Easier said than done eh? Was Aaron Sele the answer? I doubt it...Schmidt hasnt pitched yet for SF, getting a FA pitcher is a bad propotion..too many dollars chasing too few arms...thats how you get Daren Driefort contracts and Kevin Appier making a similar amount to Magglio.....and just a poll out there: On how many staffs is Ritchie a clear cut #4 or worse starter? I think he is borderline 2, but a definate 3 guy...then again 1-2s dont grow on trees

Bmr31
04-16-2002, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode


Not to start an arguement but how to you determine someone is selfish and not a leader without being on the team and in the clubhouse? The only thing we have to go by is what gets reported on by the media and the players comments through the media. So far I haven't heard anything but good about Frank. I even heard the other day that when Paulie finally broke his 0 - 16 streak and drove in the go ahead RBI against Baltimore, Frank was on second base clapping and made sure that he got Konerko's attention so that he could see Frank cheering for him.

I'm not sure what exactly you need to see to know that Frank is a leader.

did you overlook the word "apparent"?

Iwritecode
04-17-2002, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
did you overlook the word "apparent"?

"Apparent" as in evident, plain, obvious, clear, open, indisputable? These words all mean the same thing.

It's pretty obvious, apparent, clear, etc... that you think Frank is selfish and lacks leadership. Again I ask, how to you determine someone is selfish and not a leader without being on the team and in the clubhouse?

Bmr31
04-17-2002, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode


"Apparent" as in evident, plain, obvious, clear, open, indisputable? These words all mean the same thing.

It's pretty obvious, apparent, clear, etc... that you think Frank is selfish and lacks leadership. Again I ask, how to you determine someone is selfish and not a leader without being on the team and in the clubhouse?


you forgot "seeming" which is my take on the word....websters said "obvious" and "seeming", ive always taken the word as "seeming".

Iwritecode
04-17-2002, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
you forgot "seeming" which is my take on the word....websters said "obvious" and "seeming", ive always taken the word as "seeming".

Actually, I think it's seemingly. Which means it seems to you that he lacks leadership and is selfish. Apparent sounds more definite to me.

Anyway, from what I have heard, Frank hasn't been very selfish and seems to lead the team pretty well. What have you heard? Also, what would you rather see/hear from Frank?

Bmr31
04-17-2002, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode


Actually, I think it's seemingly. Which means it seems to you that he lacks leadership and is selfish. Apparent sounds more definite to me.

Anyway, from what I have heard, Frank hasn't been very selfish and seems to lead the team pretty well. What have you heard? Also, what would you rather see/hear from Frank?

okay youre smarter than a dictionary, my bad.

Iwritecode
04-18-2002, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
okay youre smarter than a dictionary, my bad.

No wonder arguements go on so long with you. By avoiding answering any and all questions, you can never be proved wrong! Very nice...

SOXit2EM
04-18-2002, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by RichH55



: On how many staffs is Ritchie a clear cut #4 or worse starter? I think he is borderline 2, but a definate 3 guy...then again 1-2s dont grow on trees I totally agree, i think Ritchie could be a definite #3 on a championship team. The last few years in Pittsburgh many of his earned runs came from the bullpen allowing the runners left on to score. I think with a good bullpen and lineup behind him he SHOULD be able to win at least 15 games; hence a good #3 starter. Hopefully the Sox will start to score more for him so he doesnt get into a rut. Also I dont think we will be going after any pitchers until the AllStar break. As far as a #2 I think that Garland definitely has it in him to fill that role. His last start was reminiscent of how he performed in the minors before being called up, hopefully he can carry that through the season and dominate. For some reason he has great stuff coming out of the bullpen, but when he gets to the mound? Sound familiar.......JB.