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View Full Version : Sox on the Verge of dealing Crede?


Rockabilly
11-16-2007, 08:19 AM
http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=78668

Madvora
11-16-2007, 08:27 AM
Nice find, but I don't know where they're getting any info that he's more "on the verge" now than he was before.
Interesting to think about Cabrera in LF and Hunter in CF while we still wouldn't have a leadoff hitter. I wonder what they would do then... Richar or something?

spawn
11-16-2007, 08:47 AM
Well, if Barry Rozner is saying it, it must be true. I find it hard to believe that any team is gonig to trade top talent for a player coming off of back surgery, but maybe that's the reason I'm not a GM.

Frontman
11-16-2007, 09:02 AM
Always a possibility. Methinks its just the same verge that Garland's be riding for what, two years now?

Lillian
11-16-2007, 09:18 AM
I'm confused. Is Rozner saying that he thinks the Sox may trade Crede to the Dodgers for 2 prospects, and that they could then in turn trade just one of them to the Marlins for Cabrera?
Isn't it highly unlikely that the Dodgers would give up two good prospects for Crede? And isn't it even more unlikely that the Marlins would accept only one of them in exchange for Cabrera?
This doesn't make much sense, unless Garland was included, either to the Marlins, or the Dodgers, or both prospects went to the Marlins. Even then, it seems awfully one sided for the Sox.

GAsoxfan
11-16-2007, 09:44 AM
I have no idea why this guy thinks the Sox could get even one of those guys in a trade with Crede as the main piece, let alone two.

If Lowell signs with the Yankees, a Crede-Crisp deal could make sense for both teams.

RowanDye
11-16-2007, 09:55 AM
I have no idea why this guy thinks the Sox could get even one of those guys in a trade with Crede as the main piece, let alone two.

If Lowell signs with the Yankees, a Crede-Crisp deal could make sense for both teams.

If Crede is healthy, which he would have to be to consummate a deal, then Boston better throw in a good prospect on top of Covelli freaking Crisp.

That would be trading a silver-slugger, gold-glover type 3rd baseman for someone only marginally better than Jerry Owens.

GAsoxfan
11-16-2007, 09:58 AM
If Crede is healthy, which he would have to be to consummate a deal, then Boston better throw in a good prospect on top of Covelli freaking Crisp.

That would be trading a silver-slugger, gold-glover type 3rd baseman for someone only marginally better than Jerry Owens.

That's the key, know one will know for sure until May.

jabrch
11-16-2007, 10:32 AM
a Crede-Crisp deal could make sense for both teams.

No way...

It's not that Crede is a lock to do anything - it is that Coco Crisp is flat out bad. I'd pass at nearly any cost. Crisp for 5mm in 08 and 6mm in 09 is a bad idea even if they give him to us for free.

oeo
11-16-2007, 10:57 AM
I'm confused. Is Rozner saying that he thinks the Sox may trade Crede to the Dodgers for 2 prospects, and that they could then in turn trade just one of them to the Marlins for Cabrera?
Isn't it highly unlikely that the Dodgers would give up two good prospects for Crede? And isn't it even more unlikely that the Marlins would accept only one of them in exchange for Cabrera?
This doesn't make much sense, unless Garland was included, either to the Marlins, or the Dodgers, or both prospects went to the Marlins. Even then, it seems awfully one sided for the Sox.

I don't think he meant that we were just going to send one over to Florida. We'd obviously have to give up a lot more than that. I'm going to guess he has no source on that, he's just stirring crap up.

I don't even know if I like the idea of acquiring Cabrera, anyway. If we're not going to re-sign him to a longterm deal, what a useless move. And if Hunter is signed, there isn't exactly going to be money to go around.

Trade Crede, sure. If you can seriously pry Kemp away from the Dodgers for him, just keep Kemp and put him in LF. Of course in both of these scenarios, either we're not going after Torii (but if Cabrera is acquired, this may be a good thing because we can better spend that money on somebody that's, well, pretty damn good), or we need to upgrade SS/2B for a leadoff hitter.

weareud
11-16-2007, 11:08 AM
No way...

It's not that Crede is a lock to do anything - it is that Coco Crisp is flat out bad. I'd pass at nearly any cost. Crisp for 5mm in 08 and 6mm in 09 is a bad idea even if they give him to us for free.

:rolleyes: Crede has next to no value right now, Crisp has speed and has a good glove in center. Who do YOU think we can get for Joe "I haven't played at all since back surgery so no one knows if I can still play" Crede?

Sockinchisox
11-16-2007, 11:15 AM
Slow news day, all speculation with almost no basis. Colletti would be mauled by everyone if he gave up Kemp or anyone with similar potential for Crede.

The Abreu thing is interesting though, he might be able to be had, we'd probably have to include a prospect though.

He's high off his horse about Cabrera though.

oeo
11-16-2007, 11:16 AM
:rolleyes: Crede has next to no value right now, Crisp has speed and has a good glove in center. Who do YOU think we can get for Joe "I haven't played at all since back surgery so no one knows if I can still play" Crede?

Barry Rozner is full of it if he thinks we can get any of the guys he listed for Crede alone.

And Boston is overvaluing Crisp, so it would take more than Crede to acquire him, as well. Unless Boston has a change of heart, just say no to Crisp...he's going to cost too much in terms of talent, and he's really not worth it.

Sockinchisox
11-16-2007, 11:18 AM
Barry Rozner is full of it if he thinks we can get any of the guys he listed for Crede alone.

And Boston is overvaluing Crisp, so it would take more than Crede to acquire him, as well. Unless Boston has a change of heart, just say no to Crisp...he's going to cost too much in terms of talent, and he's really not worth it.

GMs aren't stupid (well some are), everyone knows that Boston wants to get rid of Crisp to get Ellsbury into the lineup. So giving up anything of value for Crisp would be a mistake.

the1tab
11-16-2007, 11:35 AM
GMs aren't stupid (well some are), everyone knows that Boston wants to get rid of Crisp to get Ellsbury into the lineup. So giving up anything of value for Crisp would be a mistake.

I concur. Look at all the deals they were able to make to unload Alex Cora last year when they threw their money on Pedrioa. Whenever an organization makes it clear to everyone else that they have "their guy" already, the guy in front of him on the depth chart because of seniority loses significant trade value. I'm praying that this is a factor behind why Kenny-Ozzie haven't publically decided on Fields vs Crede yet.

jabrch
11-16-2007, 11:39 AM
:rolleyes: Crede has next to no value right now, Crisp has speed and has a good glove in center. Who do YOU think we can get for Joe "I haven't played at all since back surgery so no one knows if I can still play" Crede?

I don't care - we aren't desperate to trade Joe, are we? I'd take nothing before I'd take on 2 years and 5.5mm average for Crisp. He's just a bad hitter, and he's old enough that we know he won't get better.

Crisp is of negative value based on his contract status. I'd pass. I don't see any need to trade Joe just to move him.

The Dude
11-16-2007, 11:42 AM
I'm confused. Is Rozner saying that he thinks the Sox may trade Crede to the Dodgers for 2 prospects, and that they could then in turn trade just one of them to the Marlins for Cabrera?
Isn't it highly unlikely that the Dodgers would give up two good prospects for Crede? And isn't it even more unlikely that the Marlins would accept only one of them in exchange for Cabrera?
This doesn't make much sense, unless Garland was included, either to the Marlins, or the Dodgers, or both prospects went to the Marlins. Even then, it seems awfully one sided for the Sox.

I'm assuming we would have to include one of our own prospects with the prospects we get for Crede and deal them to Flordia. It's not going to be easy but I think it's the right thing to do.

Foulke You
11-16-2007, 11:44 AM
I don't remember much about Miguel Cabrera in his LF days with the Marlins. What kind of defender was he? What is his natural position? Why did the Marlins move him to 3B in the first place? I would hazard a guess that he at least has to be better than Fields out there.

Fenway
11-16-2007, 11:45 AM
If Boston does not lock up Mike Lowell they will be shopping for a third baseman. Rolen would be their #1 choice then Crede.

the1tab
11-16-2007, 11:49 AM
I don't remember much about Miguel Cabrera in his LF days with the Marlins. What kind of defender was he? What is his natural position? Why did the Marlins move him to 3B in the first place? I would hazard a guess that he at least has to be better than Fields out there.

The Marlins put him in left for the same reason the Cardinals put Pujols in left in 1999. Florida had Mike Lowell at third (StL McGwire at 1st) so his natural position was blocked by a producing veteran player, but they couldn't afford to keep his bat anywhere but the bigs.

Cabrera was an average left fielder in Florida... but also remember that the OF in FL is a mess because they play at the home of the artist-formerly-known-as-the-Miami-Dolphins. I'm not saying he would win a gold glove, but he wouldn't, in my opinion, be a defensive downgrade from Prancing Pods.

veeter
11-16-2007, 01:25 PM
Against the cubs, in the playoffs, I could have sworn they even used Cabrera in right. He's a good athlete and can be servicable anywhere. That was a few pounds ago, though.

Brian26
11-16-2007, 01:36 PM
The Marlins put him in left for the same reason the Cardinals put Pujols in left in 1999.

Pujols rookie year was 2001.

the1tab
11-16-2007, 02:36 PM
Pujols rookie year was 2001.

Sorry. I as trying to justify in my mind why they would have kept McGwire at first of Pujols at any point, so I threw 1999 out there for Mac's sake.

Back to Sox moves, how would the potential giving-away of Scott Rolen that St Louis is trying to do going to effect moving one of the Sox 3B?

balke
11-16-2007, 02:40 PM
Part of me wonders if Kenny is in talks with the Phils at all about Crede. He'd be a great fit there, and obviously there's an open network for trading there. I wonder if they have anything worth getting.

With Lidge there, where does Myers go? Back to the starting rotation? I just wonder if the Sox could get a big player from the Phils for Crede and an assortment of players.

spiffie
11-16-2007, 02:57 PM
Part of me wonders if Kenny is in talks with the Phils at all about Crede. He'd be a great fit there, and obviously there's an open network for trading there. I wonder if they have anything worth getting.

With Lidge there, where does Myers go? Back to the starting rotation? I just wonder if the Sox could get a big player from the Phils for Crede and an assortment of players.
Crede, Garland, and Gio for Utley?

balke
11-16-2007, 03:00 PM
Crede, Garland, and Gio for Utley?

That's not what I was suggesting, and not funny sarcasm... at all.

I was actually thinking more from a relief, or minor league standpoint.

Foulke You
11-16-2007, 03:15 PM
Against the cubs, in the playoffs, I could have sworn they even used Cabrera in right. He's a good athlete and can be servicable anywhere. That was a few pounds ago, though.
I read in the Sun Times that Cabrera is supposedly on an offseason training regimen to try and lose the extra weight since he is tired of the criticism being directed at him. If the Sox are indeed going after Cabrera, this would be excellent news.

spiffie
11-16-2007, 03:16 PM
That's not what I was suggesting, and not funny sarcasm... at all.

I was actually thinking more from a relief, or minor league standpoint.
Relax, it wasn't aimed at you. Just the fact that I would laugh for about a day if somehow the Sox found a way to put Gio in a 3rd trade involving them and the Phillies.

Tragg
11-16-2007, 03:26 PM
Who do YOU think we can get for Joe "I haven't played at all since back surgery so no one knows if I can still play" Crede?
Not much
Which is why we shouldn't trade him
Nothing wrong with depth; and if he comes back and we want to trade him, we'll get something legit.
The downside would be losing the opportunity for Crisp, a chance worth taking.

upperdeckusc
11-16-2007, 03:26 PM
Part of me wonders if Kenny is in talks with the Phils at all about Crede. He'd be a great fit there, and obviously there's an open network for trading there. I wonder if they have anything worth getting.

With Lidge there, where does Myers go? Back to the starting rotation? I just wonder if the Sox could get a big player from the Phils for Crede and an assortment of players.

indeed.
the only thing they might have of value is a few minor league arms. and at this point, that's the only thing we can get for him.

Domeshot17
11-16-2007, 03:33 PM
as the Sox appear done trying to get Crede's agent, Scott Boras, to talk about a deal beyond 2008 -- or get Crede to talk to them on his own.


Wait wait wait, someone find me the qoute where Crede says he will fire Boras to play for the Sox if that is what it comes too? I can't believe people bought that line, straight out of the 'say what you gotta say when you gotta say it school'.

WhiteSox5187
11-16-2007, 03:51 PM
There is also the question of how hard did the Sox try to get Crede to talk to them? After the whole surgery in the off season thing played out last year I wonder if the Sox did a sort of "Well...let's see how you look at the end of '07" and after seeing the way that ended I am willing to bet that Kenny wasn't exactly anxious to set up a multi-year deal. I think Crede is going to have to play a couple of games with the Sox (either in ST or in the regular season) to show that he is completely healthy before the Sox consider re-signing him or other teams show interest in trading for him.

gogosox16
11-16-2007, 04:21 PM
There is also the question of how hard did the Sox try to get Crede to talk to them? After the whole surgery in the off season thing played out last year I wonder if the Sox did a sort of "Well...let's see how you look at the end of '07" and after seeing the way that ended I am willing to bet that Kenny wasn't exactly anxious to set up a multi-year deal. I think Crede is going to have to play a couple of games with the Sox (either in ST or in the regular season) to show that he is completely healthy before the Sox consider re-signing him or other teams show interest in trading for him.
I wonder why because no one knows if he can still play at the high level that he was a couple years back and they had Josh Fields showing off that he has the makings to be a great player in the majors.(hitting wise, still needs some work on defense)

the1tab
11-16-2007, 05:25 PM
If there is this alleged groundswell market for Scott Rolen, who's owed a heck of a lot more money than Crede and has more physical issues at an older age, then there will be takers for Crede. Especially if the Yankees hog all the 3B free agents and sign ARod AND Mike Lowell.

ChiSoxFan35
11-16-2007, 07:38 PM
I know our hitting had some issues, but I think part of that was due to injuries. Some signings sucked and it could use work, but I still think our bigger issue is the pitching staff!

I am a little worried about the priorities, people want Garland gone, that would leave two spots for unproven pitchers or cheap unwanted free agents, and that's banking on an unreliable guy like Contreras. Then there's the bullpen, it was embarrassingly bad last year. Games literally became a circus act as it was the same old song and dance every night. If a Crede trade helps these holes, then great, but I could care less about Miguel Cabrera

WhiteSox5187
11-16-2007, 07:50 PM
I wonder why because no one knows if he can still play at the high level that he was a couple years back and they had Josh Fields showing off that he has the makings to be a great player in the majors.(hitting wise, still needs some work on defense)
Yea, that's exactly why. That was my point. I don't think anyone is going to be willing to take much of a chance on Crede until he shows he can play every day consistently...I think that if Crede shows he can come back at a fairly dominant level (like 2006) then you'll see teams taking a risk with him. And if he does return to that type of level, then I think the White Sox will consider him for a multi-year deal too.

upperdeckusc
11-16-2007, 08:19 PM
Yea, that's exactly why. That was my point. I don't think anyone is going to be willing to take much of a chance on Crede until he shows he can play every day consistently...I think that if Crede shows he can come back at a fairly dominant level (like 2006) then you'll see teams taking a risk with him. And if he does return to that type of level, then I think the White Sox will consider him for a multi-year deal too.

if he returns to that type of level, he will be testing free agency. best case scenario is that him and fields split time during spring training, and crede tears it up. then we might actually be able to get a few proven arms for him. but KW has already said (i think during a press conference) that he wants his lineup completed and set by january, beginning of february the latest.

Brian26
11-16-2007, 08:39 PM
I see some of these possible moves and just shake my head. It seems like Kenny is doing an exact 180 from what he did after the 2004 season.

No matter what Cabrera's numbers are offensively, it seems like we're reaquiring a Carlos Lee type of player (defense and attitude). Everyone in this organization is aware of the good and bad that comes with that.

upperdeckusc
11-16-2007, 08:41 PM
I see some of these possible moves and just shake my head. It seems like Kenny is doing an exact 180 from what he did after the 2004 season.

No matter what Cabrera's numbers are offensively, it seems like we're reaquiring a Carlos Lee type of player (defense and attitude). Everyone in this organization is aware of the good and bad that comes with that.

kenny can't do a 180 cuz he hasn't made any moves yet.
don't worry about it. i'm about 250% sure we will not obtain miguel cabrera.

Daver
11-16-2007, 08:57 PM
There is also the question of how hard did the Sox try to get Crede to talk to them? After the whole surgery in the off season thing played out last year I wonder if the Sox did a sort of "Well...let's see how you look at the end of '07" and after seeing the way that ended I am willing to bet that Kenny wasn't exactly anxious to set up a multi-year deal. I think Crede is going to have to play a couple of games with the Sox (either in ST or in the regular season) to show that he is completely healthy before the Sox consider re-signing him or other teams show interest in trading for him.

It does not change the fact that they have to offer him arbitration or non-tender him.

KRS1
11-16-2007, 09:06 PM
No matter what Cabrera's numbers are offensively, it seems like we're reaquiring a Carlos Lee type of player (defense and attitude).

Well, there are a couple of good reason's to sort of ignore his so-called attitude problems. One is that he and Ozzie are very close, and have nothing but huge respect for one another, so that would keep him on an even keel IMO. Another is to just look at what has occurred with the organization he is in. They have showed no commitment to keeping their stud players, and are just content with going into rebuilding immediately after any success they have(or when their players get too expensive). It's easy to get frustrated when you are a kid in your early twenties, have achieved the highest level of success, and see that all disappear overnight because of the various factors at play with the organization that are completely out of your control(limited fanbase, ownership's refusal to keep their best players around by paying them). I think Ozzie(and the organization) could really do wonders for getting Miguel's head on straight, and that isn't something I ever though I would say about a young player.

Tragg
11-16-2007, 09:18 PM
I see some of these possible moves and just shake my head. It seems like Kenny is doing an exact 180 from what he did after the 2004 season.

No matter what Cabrera's numbers are offensively, it seems like we're reaquiring a Carlos Lee type of player (defense and attitude). Everyone in this organization is aware of the good and bad that comes with that.

I agree. And it's not just with Cabrera.

WhiteSox5187
11-16-2007, 11:19 PM
It does not change the fact that they have to offer him arbitration or non-tender him.
Yea, I know that, but I think at most right now we'd try and get him for a one year deal (like we did last year) and then if he shows he can play and play well then maybe the Sox try to negotiate with him and if we can't get something done, we trade him.

the1tab
11-17-2007, 02:49 PM
If the Sox publically give Fields a vote of confidence at third base, then Crede loses about 40% of his trade value because everyone in baseball realizes that he's out of Chicago in 6 months anyway. The Sox need to make a move w/ Crede this offseason, as soon as they can to the highest bidder after Lowell stays in Boston, and before someone buys the bs out of St Louis that Scott Rolen's healthy.

Domeshot17
11-17-2007, 05:48 PM
If the Sox publically give Fields a vote of confidence at third base, then Crede loses about 40% of his trade value because everyone in baseball realizes that he's out of Chicago in 6 months anyway. The Sox need to make a move w/ Crede this offseason, as soon as they can to the highest bidder after Lowell stays in Boston, and before someone buys the bs out of St Louis that Scott Rolen's healthy.

Riddle me this

Scott Rolen coming off Surgery is BS to be healthy

Joe Crede coming off surgery has full trade value?

Rolen has been a superior player to Crede his entire career. The only 2 things make Rolen Riskier are his age and salary (which the Cards would be picking up).


Joe Crede was already offensively inconsistent, now he is (a) coming off back surgery (b) Is in his walk year and (c) Has Boras for an agent. There isnt this monster market for him everyone thinks there is.

the1tab
11-17-2007, 06:28 PM
Riddle me this

Scott Rolen coming off Surgery is BS to be healthy

Joe Crede coming off surgery has full trade value?

Rolen has been a superior player to Crede his entire career. The only 2 things make Rolen Riskier are his age and salary (which the Cards would be picking up).

Joe Crede was already offensively inconsistent, now he is (a) coming off back surgery (b) Is in his walk year and (c) Has Boras for an agent. There isnt this monster market for him everyone thinks there is.

I would think that if the second and third 3B on the trade market (after Cabrera) are both injury prone, the younger of the two with an expiring contract would be more alluring to a team trying to fill a hole for 2008. That's why I would think there's a bigger market for Crede.