PDA

View Full Version : Is Ray Durhams spot due to the No. 2 hole or the contract year?


MattSharp
04-15-2002, 12:42 PM
Is his excellent start at the plate due to him hitting second behind Lofton whose on fire, or because its a contract year?

Dadawg_77
04-15-2002, 12:49 PM
Maybe the contract year is a factor in Rays motivation, but hitting behind the table setter helps out a lot. Kenny's speed creates holes in the IF D which can make it easier for Ray to get on. Ray is also a better two then a lead-off man.

voodoochile
04-15-2002, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Maybe the contract year is a factor in Rays motivation, but hitting behind the table setter helps out a lot. Kenny's speed creates holes in the IF D which can make it easier for Ray to get on. Ray is also a better two then a lead-off man.

Don't forget the fact that he is also hitting directly in front of Frank. Guaranteed to see more fastballs in that situation.

I think it is a little of each, though primarily due to the change in batting order - but, I am a Ray supporter, so I expected him to return to form this year. I thought last year was more due to the frustration. I never did understand why people hate the man so much, all he has done is bleed black and silver for his entire career. Whatever someone says about Ray, they can't question his heart. The man trys his ass off every time he steps foot on the field...

RedPinStripes
04-15-2002, 01:05 PM
How many rbi does he have. It seems like whenever there is anyone on base, he's popping up. Maybe i notice it because i'm not a fan of ray. He's a rally killer!

Dadawg_77
04-15-2002, 01:06 PM
People don't/didn't like Ray because he was pigeoned holed as a leadoff man. Lofton is a leadoff man, Ray is not. Ray just does not have the mentality for hitting leadoff.

Some stats for ya,
from ESPN.com

ab avg obp slg ops rbi
Runners on 22 .273 .407 .500 .907 7
Scoring pos 14 .143 .333 .214 .548 4
men on 2out 5 .200 .500 .400 .900 1
men on 3b <2O 4 .000 .000 .000 .000 2
scoring pos 2O 3 .000 .500 .000 .500 3
Close and Late 5 .200 .333 .400 .733 1

doublem23
04-15-2002, 02:33 PM
Hell yeah, I'm becoming a big fan of Ray in the 2-hole.

:lofton
Man, admit that it's all about me. Hell, Mike Caruso would look good hitting behind the anti-Ray.

RichH55
04-15-2002, 02:35 PM
Can't it be both? Where's that option? Where's the option that he is more of a 2 than a 1...what are the odds that is it solely one factor.....damnit I want my options...Consumer Culture...My way right away(and various other slogans)

kermittheefrog
04-15-2002, 04:05 PM
Geez. What if it's both? What if it's neither? Why is there such a large anti-Ray camp that we must debate such things?

Randar68
04-15-2002, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Geez. What if it's both? What if it's neither? Why is there such a large anti-Ray camp that we must debate such things?

Why is it that the guy didn't change his approach to help the team in the way it needed it the most, but instead, kept swinging for the fences from the leadoff spot.

Great team players will do whatever their team needs them to do to win. Ray didn't have the either the mentality or the willingness to do so. He could never swallow his pride....

voodoochile
04-15-2002, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Why is it that the guy didn't change his approach to help the team in the way it needed it the most, but instead, kept swinging for the fences from the leadoff spot.

Great team players will do whatever their team needs them to do to win. Ray didn't have the either the mentality or the willingness to do so. He could never swallow his pride....

Maybe he doesn't have that make up. Maybe it was trying to cram a round peg into a square hole. Not everyone can be a leadoff hitter regardless of how fast they are. Besides, wasn't Ray one of the better leadoff men in the AL most of the past 5 years? Maybe he didn't meet the teams and the fans expectations, but maybe he did as well as he could and it was the teams fault for trying to force him to bat in a slot he isn't mentally geared for. Maybe they should have landed a genuine leadoff hitter 4 years ago and let Ray move to the second slot and all of us would be wondering why Ray hadn't been already locked up for the next 5 years... It certainly wouldn't be the first time the Sox refused to accept the obvious...

RedPinStripes
04-15-2002, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Why is it that the guy didn't change his approach to help the team in the way it needed it the most, but instead, kept swinging for the fences from the leadoff spot.

Great team players will do whatever their team needs them to do to win. Ray didn't have the either the mentality or the willingness to do so. He could never swallow his pride....

That's why i'm not a fan of ray. He's 5'7 and swings for the fences. It just seems like he strands lofton a lot with his wtp fly balls or K's. I really doubt the Sox will sign him next year. He's already making 6 mill and I doubt JR wants to pay him anymore. I know I wouldn't if it was my money.

voodoochile
04-15-2002, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


That's why i'm not a fan of ray. He's 5'7 and swings for the fences. It just seems like he strands lofton a lot with his wtp fly balls or K's. I really doubt the Sox will sign him next year. He's already making 6 mill and I doubt JR wants to pay him anymore. I know I wouldn't if it was my money.

Height has nothing to do with hitting home-runs. It's all about bat speed. Face the facts, Ray is a fastball hitter and he sees a lot more of those in the two hole hitting between KL and his .500 OBP and Frank (who no one wants to face with two men on and no one out in the first).

I'll take Ray back, but he is probably gone in a salary cutting move. Of course that means the Sox will have at least 3 and probably 4 rookies starting next year (which really, really stinks...)

Jerry_Manuel
04-15-2002, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Of course that means the Sox will have at least 3 and probably 4 rookies starting next year (which really, really stinks...)

Now your seeing the light, Voodoo. Still say World Series Champs by 2006?

voodoochile
04-15-2002, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Now your seeing the light, Voodoo. Still say World Series Champs by 2006?

My opinion is not changed. In fact if the young pitchers can find consistency, it could be much much sooner...

I think a core of Lee, Konerko, Maggs, Frank, Buerhle, Ritchie, Wright, Garland and Foulke is plenty to build around. Hopefully the Sox don't dump those players and the team should be fine. I am hoping they resign Ray and bring up Borchard and Crede and then the Sox would be pennant contenders in 2003 no matter what happens.

Bmr31
04-15-2002, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by MattSharp
Is his excellent start at the plate due to him hitting second behind Lofton whose on fire, or because its a contract year?

great poll!! I feel ray is a lazy ball player, not getting the most out of his ability....however, im voting for the #2 hole and we can all thank Kenny lofton. Lofton has jumped into my top 5 favorite players....... I LOVE KENNY LOFTON!!! haha :gulp:

Paulwny
04-15-2002, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
[B
I feel ray is a lazy ball player, not getting the most out of his ability.... :gulp: [/B]

Ray reminds me of Darryl Boston, for those who remember him, full of talent but did very little to improve his game. All these years as a 2nd baseman and still has trouble going to his right, I don't understand why.

Bmr31
04-15-2002, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny


Ray reminds me of Darryl Boston, for those who remember him, full of talent but did very little to improve his game. All these years as a 2nd baseman and still has trouble going to his right, I don't understand why.

cuz he doesnt want the ball as much as he should. How often have we seen this guy get dirty? Maybe when stealing a base, yes, but how often have you seen him get dirty on defense???

Daver
04-15-2002, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


cuz he doesnt want the ball as much as he should. How often have we seen this guy get dirty? Maybe when stealing a base, yes, but how often have you seen him get dirty on defense???

WOW! I actually agree with Bmr.Imagine that.

baggio202
04-15-2002, 09:17 PM
durham had 72 extra base hits last year...42 doubles, 10 triples, 20 homers.. to put that in perspective the guy that sets the standard at 2nd base...robbie alomar had only 66...if we let durham walk we are gonna have a hell of a time replacing his power...there is more to power than just hitting homers..

since nellie fox..have we had a 2nd baseman as good as ray??..i cant think of any...locking him up for 5 years should be a no brainer...but thats exactly whats manning the front office right now

Mathew
04-15-2002, 09:50 PM
I'm the opposite as the werbal majority here. I hated Ray when he got here, because he replaced Joey Cora who at the time was on of my favorite players(for no particular reason), but he has good bat speed and isn't made for the leadoff role. He is 5'6ish and uses the heaviest bat in the leagues, hence the wtp, however not many could be sucessful under those circumstances, he is, again some people want a player to change his game into something else. I'd wonder who we would do better with. I do remember it was about 50\50 last year between Ray and Jerry Hairston, strangly I haven't heard that lately?

MisterB
04-15-2002, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
since nellie fox..have we had a 2nd baseman as good as ray??

The only Sox 2B in that time to have anything near that kind of offense was Jorge Orta. The Sox tend to be really few-and-far-between on productive position players. Think of how much time there was between Maggs and Baines in RF, Ventura and Melton at 3B, Thomas and Dick Allen at 1B, and so on...

Harris and Hummel haven't had significant playing time above AA, and for all we know could be the 2B version of Chris Snopek and Greg Norton. Ray is only an adequate fielder but turns the DP well, and like him or not, he IS a productive offensive 2B, and we shouldn't be so quick to run him out of town.

kermittheefrog
04-15-2002, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Why is it that the guy didn't change his approach to help the team in the way it needed it the most, but instead, kept swinging for the fences from the leadoff spot.

Great team players will do whatever their team needs them to do to win. Ray didn't have the either the mentality or the willingness to do so. He could never swallow his pride....

The guy had 72 extra base hits last year, it's not like he's unsuccessful and there is the possibility he has explored tinkering with his game and didn't think it would make him more valuable. I really hate it when people act like causation is somethig we know about ballplayers performances when we can really only make guesses.

RichH55
04-16-2002, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by MisterB


The only Sox 2B in that time to have anything near that kind of offense was Jorge Orta. The Sox tend to be really few-and-far-between on productive position players. Think of how much time there was between Maggs and Baines in RF, Ventura and Melton at 3B, Thomas and Dick Allen at 1B, and so on...

Harris and Hummel haven't had significant playing time above AA, and for all we know could be the 2B version of Chris Snopek and Greg Norton. Ray is only an adequate fielder but turns the DP well, and like him or not, he IS a productive offensive 2B, and we shouldn't be so quick to run him out of town.


I dont think you will have to worry about Hummel that much.....the OBP should be good enough althought Im guessing Ray has him on the Slugging.....but Im not much on bashing Ray either....I dont think Ray is great defensively....not a great range guy, but I think he might be the best 2B in the game at going back on fly-balls...I think that helps alot, and I think its one of the reasons baseball people think Magglio is a above average defensive player, because he works so well with Ray in that regard

RichH55
04-16-2002, 10:26 AM
Let me repeat...I think Ray is a good player....but i think alot of people arent big Ray guys because of the expectations that he wears around his neck like an anchor "The next Joe Morgan" ...how do you live up to that? Well he isnt, ok? But he is still a sure fire All Star 2B who looks pretty good at that two hole and if he gets a .360 OBP for the year and gets 60 Extra Base Hits...Ill be estatic......Hes not Pokey Reese on D, but then Pokey isnt Ray on O(Hell Pokey isnt Royce on O)......I think we have some issues with the team...I dont think Ray is one of them(especially when he is not the leadoff guy)

RichH55
04-16-2002, 10:27 AM
Hye Kermit or whoever....regarding Ray as a leadoff guy.....Does anyone have the OBP for the leagues leadoff guys last year? And over the last 3 years?? For last year Im thinking Ray was better than the league average and probably top 10 amongst leadoff guys...but I would like data to show this one way or the other

Randar68
04-16-2002, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Let me repeat...I think Ray is a good player....but i think alot of people arent big Ray guys because of the expectations that he wears around his neck like an anchor

I'll tell you why I'm not the biggest Ray fan:

Despite what the players tell you, that he's a great team guy, I think that has more to do with him being likeable and a great clubhouse guy.

However, in my book, a GREAT TEAM PLAYER is somebody who will adapt their game to do whatever the team asks of them to win. Ray has never done this. He has the ability and talent to do anythingm including being a great leadoff hitter, but he is infatuated with the long ball. He alwasy says he's a #2 hitter, not a leadoff guy, and even spoke out to the media against going to CF last year when it was thrown around breifly (not saying I was for that move).

My point is that he does not seem to accept what he has been given and want to be something else. He never works at bunting or stealin bases.

In short, HE THINKS HE'S BIG MAC, BUT HE'S JUST LITTLE RAY!!!!

maybe a little harsh, but I want to be clear as to why I'm not his biggest fan, although I'm prolly not his biggest detractor either.

RichH55
04-16-2002, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


I'll tell you why I'm not the biggest Ray fan:

Despite what the players tell you, that he's a great team guy, I think that has more to do with him being likeable and a great clubhouse guy.

However, in my book, a GREAT TEAM PLAYER is somebody who will adapt their game to do whatever the team asks of them to win. Ray has never done this. He has the ability and talent to do anythingm including being a great leadoff hitter, but he is infatuated with the long ball. He alwasy says he's a #2 hitter, not a leadoff guy, and even spoke out to the media against going to CF last year when it was thrown around breifly (not saying I was for that move).

My point is that he does not seem to accept what he has been given and want to be something else. He never works at bunting or stealin bases.

In short, HE THINKS HE'S BIG MAC, BUT HE'S JUST LITTLE RAY!!!!

maybe a little harsh, but I want to be clear as to why I'm not his biggest fan, although I'm prolly not his biggest detractor either.


So hes good in the clubhouse, but not a team guy? Fair enough...although the first part of that is half the battle.....Ray IMO isnt a prototypical leadoff guy...he did what he was asked and moved there, and maybe he didnt max out there, but he is IMO a great #2 guy, so wouldnt that be managements fault moreso than Rays? Not everyone can change their game around on a whim...

And regarding the SB and bunting comment...is this a fact? Im not saying you are wrong.....Im just saying it sounds like typical message board hyperbole than anything else....I mean he has stolen 30 bases 4 times and he has 4 so far this year...bunting I really cant provide numbers on


I've said it before and I will say it again....Ray isnt perfect, but I think so people find fault with him because he isnt Joe Morgan......If he gets 30 steals, .360+ OBP and 65+ extra base hits this year how much fault can you find with the guy?

voodoochile
04-16-2002, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


I'll tell you why I'm not the biggest Ray fan:

Despite what the players tell you, that he's a great team guy, I think that has more to do with him being likeable and a great clubhouse guy.

However, in my book, a GREAT TEAM PLAYER is somebody who will adapt their game to do whatever the team asks of them to win. Ray has never done this. He has the ability and talent to do anythingm including being a great leadoff hitter, but he is infatuated with the long ball. He alwasy says he's a #2 hitter, not a leadoff guy, and even spoke out to the media against going to CF last year when it was thrown around breifly (not saying I was for that move).

My point is that he does not seem to accept what he has been given and want to be something else. He never works at bunting or stealin bases.

In short, HE THINKS HE'S BIG MAC, BUT HE'S JUST LITTLE RAY!!!!

maybe a little harsh, but I want to be clear as to why I'm not his biggest fan, although I'm prolly not his biggest detractor either.

I'm kind of surprised by Randar being so harsh... Ray did adapt his game. He has taken more pitches. He has taken more walks. He has improved his OBP. For a guy who understands stats and how they can be used in good and bad ways, you seem to want to just gloss over those facts.

Yeah, Ray had a down year last year, but it was a pretty tough year for the whole team emotionally, physically and expectations-wise.

Ray is the best all around option the Sox have at 2B this year and beyond...

Randar68
04-16-2002, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
So hes good in the clubhouse, but not a team guy? Fair enough...although the first part of that is half the battle.....Ray IMO isnt a prototypical leadoff guy...he did what he was asked and moved there, and maybe he didnt max out there, but he is IMO a great #2 guy, so wouldnt that be managements fault moreso than Rays? Not everyone can change their game around on a whim...

My point was that he was asked to be a leadoff hitter because the organization didn't have one. In return, Ray played there, but he didn't adapt his game into that of the leadoff role, he was a #2 hitter playing out of position. My comments are all based off Ray's own remarks and apparent attitude towards the whole thing. He didn't bitch about it, but he clearly didn't try to make the most out of it.


Originally posted by RichH55
And regarding the SB and bunting comment...is this a fact? Im not saying you are wrong.....Im just saying it sounds like typical message board hyperbole than anything else....I mean he has stolen 30 bases 4 times and he has 4 so far this year...bunting I really cant provide numbers on

Bunting is pure practice and effort. Ray is one of the worst bunters for a fast top of the order hitter this side of Chris Singelton. SB's aren't as important as %. Ray gets caught a lot and doesn't get great reads. I'm not saying anyone can become a great base stealer, as there are a lot of instincts involved, but ti is an area that I think of him as being weak in. Look at Maggs' and Carlos' and Jose's stealing %'s and then look at Ray's...


Originally posted by RichH55
I've said it before and I will say it again....Ray isnt perfect, but I think so people find fault with him because he isnt Joe Morgan......If he gets 30 steals, .360+ OBP and 65+ extra base hits this year how much fault can you find with the guy?

I have never copared Ray to anyone but Ray. You can't really fault Ray for getting those #'s in the 2-hole. The most important thing for the team is that Ray is on base close to 40% of the time. Ray has failed repeatedly to see this. With the lineup the Sox have had and currently have behind him, he is not needed to hit HR's and doubles EVERY time up, like he seemingly tries to do.

I think he is a very talented player, but one that has never really seen the light. Again, just my opinion...

Randar68
04-16-2002, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


I'm kind of surprised by Randar being so harsh... Ray did adapt his game. He has taken more pitches. He has taken more walks. He has improved his OBP. For a guy who understands stats and how they can be used in good and bad ways, you seem to want to just gloss over those facts.

Yeah, Ray had a down year last year, but it was a pretty tough year for the whole team emotionally, physically and expectations-wise.

Ray is the best all around option the Sox have at 2B this year and beyond...

Ray is now in his beloved 2-hole, and they have only played 12 games. He never did the above from the leadoff spot, where it was sorely needed and asked of him, but now it's not a problem to do so?

He is now in a contract year and I'm sure he is more mentally comfortable in the 2-spot with Kenny in front of him, and that may have something to do with it...


As for the best option at 2B, I half wish the Sox weren't leaders for the division or that they are 30 games up by the deadline, cause we are going to lose him for nothing instead of getting good value at the deadline...