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twsoxfan5
11-07-2007, 10:36 AM
Bruce Levine reports on AM1000 that they Sox may offer Hunter a 5 year contract worth 15 mil per year. This is Levine so take it with a grain of salt, but I beleive if they make this offer it would be thier biggest offer ever in terms of years and dollars. Is he worth it?

Mods: feel free to move or combine with any other Hunter thread. I started a new thread b/c I thought this was newer news than just speculation.

chisoxmike
11-07-2007, 10:38 AM
Yikes.

palehozenychicty
11-07-2007, 10:42 AM
He's not worth it, but in business, you have to take a risk once in awhile. The Sox do a good job of not doing that, but if they want to even think about contending next year, they have to do things like this. Let's see what happens.

Rocky Soprano
11-07-2007, 10:43 AM
Hunter IMO is not worth that much. While he is the best CF out in the market,
if that is what he is asking for then I rather they bring Rowand back at a lesser cost and then use the money saved on plugging other holes.

spawn
11-07-2007, 10:44 AM
Hunter IMO is not worth that much. While he is the best CF out in the market,
if that is what he is asking for then I rather they bring Rowand back at a lesser cost and then use the money saved on plugging other holes.
Who says Rowand would cost less? The guy just had an amazing season and won a Gold Glove. I'm guessing his asking price may be in that range.

Rocky Soprano
11-07-2007, 10:47 AM
Who says Rowand would cost less? The guy just had an amazing season and won a Gold Glove. I'm guessing his asking price may be in that range.

You are right but we all know Hunter > Rowand, so I would hope Rowand would cost less.

If Rowand is asking theSox for 15MM, then I say go for Hunter.

JohnTucker0814
11-07-2007, 10:48 AM
Hunter IMO is not worth that much. While he is the best CF out in the market,
if that is what he is asking for then I rather they bring Rowand back at a lesser cost and then use the money saved on plugging other holes.

I think we are giving Rowand way too much credit! Hunter has been a solid hitter for several years, gold glove every year. Rowand had a monster year last year. IMHO Hunter is well ahead of Rowand.

chisoxmike
11-07-2007, 10:51 AM
Like people have said, I'd rather give the money to Hunter than Rowand. Or really over any of the other CF free agents out there. Hunter is the best one in my opinion.

spawn
11-07-2007, 10:53 AM
Like people have said, I'd rather give the money to Hunter than Rowand. Or really over any of the other CF free agents out there. Hunter is the best one in my opinion.
Agreed. If we have to pay that kind of coin to pick up a CF, I'd rather spend it on Hunter as well.

veeter
11-07-2007, 10:53 AM
I think he's worth it. Compare him to Paulie, who got five years and what...12 or 13 per. He's a five tool guy, who's a defensive stud. Moving to grass would/should keep him healthier. Plus it weakens the Twins. Let's do it.

oeo
11-07-2007, 10:54 AM
You are right but we all know Hunter > Rowand, so I would hope Rowand would cost less.

We've already had this argument a ton of times, and that's technically not true.

Torii Hunter is the most overrated player by WSI members, who has never even played for the Sox.

balke
11-07-2007, 10:56 AM
Its worth it for

1) Kenny to answer the challenge of CF after CY had his big season and Anderson has done so poorly.
2) The certainty of dragging him away from Minnesota and kicking some dirt in thier eyes.
3) Adding offense to a team that struggled last season.


Hunter is not perfect by any means, but he's better than nothing. 15 Mil isn't that much when the Yanks are paying Abreu as a RFer how much he gets. Hunter is fairly healthy in his career and I think he'd like the friendly confines of the Cell. His mouth might be good PR for the Sox too, he'd probably turn into the biggest sports celeb in Chicago. I can imagine him talking trash in Cubs-Sox games and the like, and the media would eat it up. I could also see him getting along really well with Dye and Thome, and perhaps keeping the hitting out of a rut with a positive attitude.


I just cringe at the thought of the GIDP's next season though. Yikes.

chisoxmike
11-07-2007, 10:59 AM
Look, the Sox need to upgrade CF. If Jerry Owens is out there, we're not contending in 2008. Plain and simple.

Right now, Torii Hunter the the best CF on the market. Key word, on the market.

You get the best players.

hi im skot
11-07-2007, 10:59 AM
I've heard rumors of Hunter being a bit of a problem in the clubhouse. I'm not sure if these rumors hold any water (how many times have we heard and continue to hear that about A.J.?), but if that's the case I'm not sure that I'm comfortable dropping that kind of cash.

Also, somewhat related; does this mean extending Garland is out of the question?

Rocky Soprano
11-07-2007, 11:01 AM
We've already had this argument a ton of times, and that's technically not true.

Torii Hunter is the most overrated player by WSI members, who has never even played for the Sox.

You feel that Rowand is a better player than Hunter?

oeo
11-07-2007, 11:01 AM
I've heard rumors of Hunter being a bit of a problem in the clubhouse. I'm not sure if these rumors hold any water (how many times have we heard and continue to hear that about A.J.?), but if that's the case I'm not sure that I'm comfortable dropping that kind of cash.

Also, somewhat related; does this mean extending Garland is out of the question?

Where did you hear those? :?:

I've always heard that he was a good clubhouse leader.

Also...I think that signing Garland is out of the question whether we sign a FA or not.

balke
11-07-2007, 11:03 AM
I've heard rumors of Hunter being a bit of a problem in the clubhouse. I'm not sure if these rumors hold any water (how many times have we heard and continue to hear that about A.J.?), but if that's the case I'm not sure that I'm comfortable dropping that kind of cash.

Also, somewhat related; does this mean extending Garland is out of the question?

More than likely. I don't like how Sox fans have treated Garland, and I don't see any reason he'd want to stay here. Any time he has a bad game Sox fans turn on him and his "attitude" then they use that dumb nickname. It's pretty pathetic and annoying.

It's been mentioned he would like to head west after this contract, I don't know if there's truth to those rumors.

Rocky Soprano
11-07-2007, 11:03 AM
I've always heard that he was a good clubhouse leader.

I agree, I've always heard that he is a good leader and he is actually vocal which is something the Sox need.

russ99
11-07-2007, 11:03 AM
This is free agency. Asking prices of $15M (or prices in general) for players that are worth less is pretty much the norm. If the Sox are going to improve the team in this manner, they're going to have to play the game. None of this "market correction" hooey.

As for Hunter, I'd go for it as long as there's not a full no-trade clause involved. No point in locking down a player at that cost for 5 years if there's no escape if things go bad 3-4 years down the road...

I'd only go around $10-12 for Rowand if we miss out on Hunter. Hopefully Aaron would take a bit of a discount to return to the Sox. As for Garland, I'd wait and see, since if we're acquiring expensive players, something tells me Jerry won't go for a $120M payroll and some salary will have to be traded before the offseason is over.

Still, this would better than last offseason where we took in all retreads and bargain-basement players. Hopefully this year will turn out better.

spiffie
11-07-2007, 11:06 AM
$15 million for 5 years for a guy with a lower career OPS than Jeff Cirillo (or Aaron Rowand) seems like a lot to me. I know he dives and jumps really well for balls but I'm not sure that money couldn't be spent better. Honestly, I'd rather extend Garland and keep a solid rotation for years to come.

voodoochile
11-07-2007, 11:09 AM
$15 million for 5 years for a guy with a lower career OPS than Jeff Cirillo (or Aaron Rowand) seems like a lot to me. I know he dives and jumps really well for balls but I'm not sure that money couldn't be spent better. Honestly, I'd rather extend Garland and keep a solid rotation for years to come.

I think the Sox expect some of their young arms to be paying dividends by 2009, so am not surprised they are spending money elsewhere at the moment.

spiffie
11-07-2007, 11:13 AM
I think the Sox expect some of their young arms to be paying dividends by 2009, so am not surprised they are spending money elsewhere at the moment.
I know that's what they're thinking. They however are not still waiting for Scott Ruffcorn to become the great pitcher we were all sure he was going to be. I, and anyone else who has been a fan of this team for a long time, we've all seen way too many can't miss pitchers who end up missing badly. To me you have a guy who you know is consistently going to be a good pitcher, with flashes of greatness...that's worth more to me than 5 guys who might be great.

voodoochile
11-07-2007, 11:23 AM
I know that's what they're thinking. They however are not still waiting for Scott Ruffcorn to become the great pitcher we were all sure he was going to be. I, and anyone else who has been a fan of this team for a long time, we've all seen way too many can't miss pitchers who end up missing badly. To me you have a guy who you know is consistently going to be a good pitcher, with flashes of greatness...that's worth more to me than 5 guys who might be great.

Yeah, but this time they have tons of depth. Broadway, Egbert, DLS, Gio, Floyd and Danks all have MLB potential and the last two have already shown signs of developing into solid #4's or 5's at the minimum. They take a step up and they could give the Sox everything JG is currently giving them by next year for sure, so it makes sense to wait and see what happens with both of them and with JG before offering the extension. If they develop and JG stagnates, the Sox may trade Garland at the deadline next year for more position prospects or help elsewhere.

Garland has the stuff to be a #2, but he hasn't put it together consistently to date and last year pitched like a #4 or 5 himself, so why rush the extension until you know which way things are going to go.

spiffie
11-07-2007, 11:35 AM
Yeah, but this time they have tons of depth. Broadway, Egbert, DLS, Gio, Floyd and Danks all have MLB potential and the last two have already shown signs of developing into solid #4's or 5's at the minimum. They take a step up and they could give the Sox everything JG is currently giving them by next year for sure, so it makes sense to wait and see what happens with both of them and with JG before offering the extension. If they develop and JG stagnates, the Sox may trade Garland at the deadline next year for more position prospects or help elsewhere.

Garland has the stuff to be a #2, but he hasn't put it together consistently to date and last year pitched like a #4 or 5 himself, so why rush the extension until you know which way things are going to go.
What are the odds that more than one out of all those guys you mentioned ever has a single season of 200+ innings in the majors? And I don't mean that in a disaparaging way towards them, but out of nearly any group of prospects with the range in experience and talent you use up there, it seems rare for a lot of them to become dependable year in and year out starters.

I guess I just don't see anyone who truly seems "can't miss" enough out of that group to say "alright, let's hope to fill three spots in the rotation over the next 2 seasons with these guys." I guess I'd rather sign the guy who we know will likely give us an above average ERA and 200 innings. Knowing that we still have at least one spot that can be and another one coming open when Contreras is gone. If out of that group 2 guys turn out to be able to give us a Garland like performance I'll be happily surprised.

And either way I'd rather do that than be paying a 37 year old Torii Hunter $15 million.

HomeFish
11-07-2007, 11:39 AM
I've heard rumors of Hunter being a bit of a problem in the clubhouse. I'm not sure if these rumors hold any water (how many times have we heard and continue to hear that about A.J.?), but if that's the case I'm not sure that I'm comfortable dropping that kind of cash.

Also, somewhat related; does this mean extending Garland is out of the question?

I know, dude. Those Twins teams he played for were never able to build any team chemistry.

palehozenychicty
11-07-2007, 11:41 AM
What are the odds that more than one out of all those guys you mentioned ever has a single season of 200+ innings in the majors? And I don't mean that in a disaparaging way towards them, but out of nearly any group of prospects with the range in experience and talent you use up there, it seems rare for a lot of them to become dependable year in and year out starters.

I guess I just don't see anyone who truly seems "can't miss" enough out of that group to say "alright, let's hope to fill three spots in the rotation over the next 2 seasons with these guys." I guess I'd rather sign the guy who we know will likely give us an above average ERA and 200 innings. Knowing that we still have at least one spot that can be and another one coming open when Contreras is gone. If out of that group 2 guys turn out to be able to give us a Garland like performance I'll be happily surprised.

And either way I'd rather do that than be paying a 37 year old Torii Hunter $15 million.

The problem is that's about all he can give you. In today's baseball economics, it's foolish to put that much money into a starter with low-level stuff when you can get that from a young, controllable player for the league minimum. They at least could turn into great players, something that the Sox haven't had for awhile, is truly great, young talent. Garland is going to be a solid starter, and nothing more. I'd like for us to aim better than just solid.

voodoochile
11-07-2007, 11:42 AM
What are the odds that more than one out of all those guys you mentioned ever has a single season of 200+ innings in the majors? And I don't mean that in a disaparaging way towards them, but out of nearly any group of prospects with the range in experience and talent you use up there, it seems rare for a lot of them to become dependable year in and year out starters.

I guess I just don't see anyone who truly seems "can't miss" enough out of that group to say "alright, let's hope to fill three spots in the rotation over the next 2 seasons with these guys." I guess I'd rather sign the guy who we know will likely give us an above average ERA and 200 innings. Knowing that we still have at least one spot that can be and another one coming open when Contreras is gone. If out of that group 2 guys turn out to be able to give us a Garland like performance I'll be happily surprised.

And either way I'd rather do that than be paying a 37 year old Torii Hunter $15 million.

There will be FA options available too. No need to assume it's only the make or break kids. KW has been very active in the FA pitcher market since he got here either through trades or signings. Maybe a couple of these kids will impress enough to allow the Sox to acquire someone else and again, make JG less necessary.

Don't get me wrong. I like Garland and would love for the Sox to keep him, but I can understand why extending him right now isn't a priority.

hi im skot
11-07-2007, 11:52 AM
Where did you hear those? :?:

I've always heard that he was a good clubhouse leader.

Also...I think that signing Garland is out of the question whether we sign a FA or not.

I agree, I've always heard that he is a good leader and he is actually vocal which is something the Sox need.

I know, dude. Those Twins teams he played for were never able to build any team chemistry.

As I mentioned in my original post, I'm simply going off of rumors here, folks. I simply stated what I've heard and was hoping WSI could give me some more info.

The latest piece I've read came from here (http://soxmachine.com/blogs/soxmachine/archive/2007/11/02/11301.aspx). I know, it's simply a blog, take it with a grain of salt. Just throwing it out there.

spiffie
11-07-2007, 11:53 AM
The problem is that's about all he can give you.
You seem to underestimate how rare that is. Among pitchers who have had to pitch in the AL each of the last three seasons, do you know how many have given 200+ innings with a better than league average ERA each year? Four. Johan Santana, Dan Haren, John Lackey, Jon Garland. Now, I'll easily admit he's the least out of those four pitchers. But to find someone with consistency and durability is not nearly as easy as you make it out to be.

palehozenychicty
11-07-2007, 11:57 AM
You seem to underestimate how rare that is. Among pitchers who have had to pitch in the AL each of the last three seasons, do you know how many have given 200+ innings with a better than league average ERA each year? Four. Johan Santana, Dan Haren, John Lackey, Jon Garland. Now, I'll easily admit he's the least out of those four pitchers. But to find someone with consistency and durability is not nearly as easy as you make it out to be.

Don't me wrong, as I like that consistency about him. It's just that if we can get a lot for him and allow someone the opportunity to replicate those numbers, you have to go for it.

Flight #24
11-07-2007, 12:03 PM
All I can say is Yuck. I like Hunter as a player, but I think he's overrated as a defender. Plus I'm really not convinced that in yrs 3-5 he's going to be anywhere worth it. And he's not the kind of guy that gives you enough of a boost in the first 2 years that you say "it's worth it".

getonbckthr
11-07-2007, 12:38 PM
Personally I think Kenny is involved with Hunter for the simple fact he knows Texas really wants him and KW wants to make sure the price is high enough that the Twins won't match it.

WhiteSox5187
11-07-2007, 01:06 PM
Well, here's my two cents (and I'll be the first to admit, my two cents are worth less than just about anyone else's here)...I don't mind the idea of signing Hunter at that price so long as it does not include a full no trade clause...with Hunter in center you could risk bringing back Pods in left as a potential leadoff man OR have Jerry Owens in left at the ninth spot...any lineup that features Thome, Konerko, JD, AND Hunter (not to mention AJ) is going to produce a lot of runs. So this would fill the hole in CF, which would mean we still have holes at short (Uribe is not the answer), leadoff and a god awful bullpen. Obviously by signing Hunter (and if Hunter passes, you go to Rowand and make damn sure you bring him back) that means you're leadoff guy is going to come from either left or short...Bringing Pods back is a risk but only (as if this is a small concern) because of his health. We all know what he can do if he stays healthy...Eckstein is a potenial leadoff man and what you could do is stick Uribe at short and cross your fingers and pray that he does his job like he did in '05, throw Eckstein in at second and have him bat leadoff and then have Jerry Owens in left batting ninth.

Now this brings up the issue of what to do with Garland, I think what we're going to do is hold on to him for at least the start of the season and see how he does. Right now we have two big question marks in our rotation and creating a third isn't really what we need in order to compete...If we trade Crede in the offseason this year, I'm trying to figure out if that would save us any payroll room to potentially sign Garland in the middle of the season depending upon where we are. But, I think it is important to hold on to Garland and have him as our third starter going into next year...trading Contreras (probably in a package with Crede) and inserting either Floyd or Gio into that fifth slot will help us see how much we have in terms of our young pitching. If Danks at four and Floyd/Gio come out and do a great job (by that I mean winning about ten games apiece and avoiding the blackhole we had in '04) then all of a sudden trading Garland becomes more viable.

I don't think that that makes any sense at all, but we'll see.

AJ Hellraiser
11-07-2007, 03:46 PM
I don't want any part of Hunter... especially for that duration... if it's true and he accepts I am going to have a real sour taste in my mouth about being a SOX fan...

Foulke You
11-07-2007, 04:56 PM
I don't want any part of Hunter... especially for that duration... if it's true and he accepts I am going to have a real sour taste in my mouth about being a SOX fan...
Sometimes, SOME of my fellow Sox fans drive me crazy. We have to be the only fanbase around that complains about being the frontrunner to sign the best free agent CF on the market. He also happens to be a guy who is arguably one of the best defensive CFs in the game and oh yeah, he hits about .290 and will give you 25HRs and 90RBIs.

I don't know about you, but watching last year's team was not fun. We are paying more now for tickets than we ever have before. We are paying more for food and beer at the ballpark than we ever have before. We are paying more to park our cars too. The White Sox are not a small market club and it is nice to see KW being aggressive on the FA market instead of watching teams like the Red Sox, Yankees, Mets, and even the Cubs sign all the top free agents every year. This team needs to get better in a hurry. We have no World Series quality CF on our team or in our organization. NONE. Torri Hunter solves the problem. You should be happy if we sign him. End of story.

oeo
11-07-2007, 05:02 PM
Sometimes, SOME of my fellow Sox fans drive me crazy. We have to be the only fanbase around that complains about being the frontrunner to sign the best free agent CF on the market. He also happens to be a guy who is arguably one of the best defensive CFs in the game and oh yeah, he hits about .290 and will give you 25HRs and 90RBIs.

Except that he's 32 and his defensive skills are already diminishing. Oh, and he hits around .270, not .290; don't be fooled by his career year (which wasn't anything incredible, anyway).

I don't know about you, but watching last year's team was not fun. We are paying more now for tickets than we ever have before. We are paying more for food and beer at the ballpark than we ever have before. We are paying more to park our cars too. The White Sox are not a small market club and it is nice to see KW being aggressive on the FA market instead of watching teams like the Red Sox, Yankees, Mets, and even the Cubs sign all the top free agents every year. This team needs to get better in a hurry. We have no World Series quality CF on our team or in our organization. NONE. Torri Hunter solves the problem. You should be happy if we sign him. End of story.

Torii Hunter may solve the problem for 1, 2, maybe 3 years. Then we'll see what the old man can do. 5 years is a long time; I doubt he goes the distance without some sort of injury problem, and with skills already diminishing, who knows what kind of outfielder we'll have, or even offensive skills.

Foulke You
11-07-2007, 05:19 PM
Except that he's 32 and his defensive skills are already diminishing. Oh, and he hits around .270, not .290; don't be fooled by his career year (which wasn't anything incredible, anyway).



Torii Hunter may solve the problem for 1, 2, maybe 3 years. Then we'll see what the old man can do. 5 years is a long time; I doubt he goes the distance without some sort of injury problem, and with skills already diminishing, who knows what kind of outfielder we'll have, or even offensive skills.
Hunter's defense is still a huge strength of his game. He had a .995 fielding percentage last year, 387 PO, 5 assists, and made only 2 errors in over 150 games worth of work. He may not be the "Superman" Hunter of 5 years ago, but he has more than enough left in the tank to be a huge improvement over anything we have. Another thing to consider is that our outfield is smaller than CF at the Dome so he has less ground to cover. He also has a padded wall at the cell vs. the baggy at the Dome.

Is a 5 year deal for a 32 year old a risk? Absolutely. All long term deals are risky. Of course, the way some people talk, he will wilt and die the day he turns 35. There are plenty of productive outfielders that play beyond 35. (Kenny Lofton and Griffey Jr. come to mind.) Another thing to consider is that Thome will probably be retired by the time year 4 or 5 of that contract comes up. He is a good enough hitter to easily slip into the DH role if we needed him to. Hunter can also be moved to LF or RF if he no longer has the range to play CF by year 4 or 5 of the deal.

Again, the bottom line is signing Hunter makes the Sox a better team for the immediate future and solves our CF problem right away. I've yet to see convincing evidence that this is a horrible move for the Sox.

hi im skot
11-07-2007, 06:59 PM
Is a 5 year deal for a 32 year old a risk? Absolutely. All long term deals are risky. Of course, the way some people talk, he will wilt and die the day he turns 35. There are plenty of productive outfielders that play beyond 35. (Kenny Lofton and Griffey Jr. come to mind.) Another thing to consider is that Thome will probably be retired by the time year 4 or 5 of that contract comes up. He is a good enough hitter to easily slip into the DH role if we needed him to. Hunter can also be moved to LF or RF if he no longer has the range to play CF by year 4 or 5 of the deal.

Missing a ton of playing time due to injuries is productive?

Don't get me wrong; I love Griffey and always wish him well, but he's always a hangnail or stubbed toe away from missing 35 games.

ShoelessJoeS
11-07-2007, 07:04 PM
I suppose 15mil/year is about right...but for 5 years??? I don't think so. I'd rather take Rowand somewhere around 12mil/year for 5 years (assuming he'd be getting less than Torii on the market, and that's a big assumption).

TheOldRoman
11-07-2007, 08:31 PM
Another thing to consider is that Thome will probably be retired by the time year 4 or 5 of that contract comes up. He is a good enough hitter to easily slip into the DH role if we needed him to. Hunter can also be moved to LF or RF if he no longer has the range to play CF by year 4 or 5 of the deal.
That is insane. You would be happy with the Sox spending $15 million a year on a guy who at his best (which would have been 5 years behind him) hits .290, has a .330 OBP with 95 RBI and 30 homers? That might work if you have Miguel Cabrera in left, A-Rod at short, Pujols at first, and enough talent to make up for the lack of production at DH. This isn't Cabrera or Adam Dunn we are talking about making into a DH in a few years. Hunter would be a terrible DH.

TheOldRoman
11-07-2007, 08:51 PM
Except that he's 32 and his defensive skills are already diminishing. Oh, and he hits around .270, not .290; don't be fooled by his career year (which wasn't anything incredible, anyway).
Torii Hunter may solve the problem for 1, 2, maybe 3 years. Then we'll see what the old man can do. 5 years is a long time; I doubt he goes the distance without some sort of injury problem, and with skills already diminishing, who knows what kind of outfielder we'll have, or even offensive skills.
You are 100% right. I will say my piece now and support KW with whatever decision he makes on Hunter.

As I have said before, I would love Hunter on my team... for $7 million a year. I wouldn't even go as high at $10mil for him. I understand in today's market Eric Byrnes got $10 million, and you can't get much in terms of CF talent for that money. The Sox' payroll for the next couple years will be around $95-$105 million. That isn't that much when you start throwing $15 mil at individual players. Add that to a rotation making close to $45 million, and you are in trouble fitting under the payroll. If you are going to spend that much money on a player, you might as well spend a little more and get a player better than Hunter.

Hunter was always a really good defensive player, but he was never truly great. He plays deep so he can rob homers (whereas Andruw Jones plays extemely shallow - he can cover a lot more ground). Lots of hits fall in front of Toriiiiii because he wants to make the highlight reel catch. And, truth be told, those catches alone have made his career. He is a decent hitter, but not in the $15mil a year category, even with his defense in his prime. He has lost a step, and his knees are hurt from playing on the turf.

I don't want Toriiiiii on the team for $15 million a year, and I don't want him signed to a 5 year contract. However, if the Sox sign him, I will trust they made the correct decision. The huge majority of people on this board want Hunter now. If the Sox get outbid, Hunter will turn into a sure fire hall of famer who who have lead the Sox to 5 world championships. If they sign Hunter, those same people will be screaming how stupid KW is for giving that much money to a player of Hunter's limited capabilities for that timeframe. That will further prove that "2005 was a fluke and Kenny is a bad GM". I won't take part. I won't throw out any "told you so"s. If the Sox sign Hunter, I wish him the best of luck. If Kenny doesn't put up enough to get him, I won't whine about the Sox being cheap. I trust KW to make these decisions.

voodoochile
11-07-2007, 10:23 PM
That is insane. You would be happy with the Sox spending $15 million a year on a guy who at his best (which would have been 5 years behind him) hits .290, has a .330 OBP with 95 RBI and 30 homers? That might work if you have Miguel Cabrera in left, A-Rod at short, Pujols at first, and enough talent to make up for the lack of production at DH. This isn't Cabrera or Adam Dunn we are talking about making into a DH in a few years. Hunter would be a terrible DH.

Okay, so he moves to RF and Dye goes to DH...

Honestly, I don't understand people worrying about how the contract will affect the team in 4 years. We need TorIIIII NOW. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet on a contract which may or may not be a bad one when it gets toward the end for results now because that is what the market demands.

It's not a freaking video game, you cannot make every move a perfect one, period. There are very few ideal solutions and most of them come from catching lightning in a bottle and growing a HOF player through your farm system, but that only lasts about 3 years and then you have to put up or lose them.

I've said it before, I'll say it again...

The Sox could sign ARod to a 10 year 15M/yr contract and there would be people whining about whether he would be worth it in years 8-10. :rolleyes:

TheOldRoman
11-07-2007, 10:30 PM
Okay, so he moves to RF and Dye goes to DH...

Honestly, I don't understand people worrying about how the contract will affect the team in 4 years. We need TorIIIII NOW. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet on a contract which may or may not be a bad one when it gets toward the end for results now because that is what the market demands.

It's not a freaking video game, you cannot make every move a perfect one, period. There are very few ideal solutions and most of them come from catching lightning in a bottle and growing a HOF player through your farm system, but that only lasts about 3 years and then you have to put up or lose them.

I've said it before, I'll say it again...

The Sox could sign ARod to a 10 year 15M/yr contract and there would be people whining about whether he would be worth it in years 8-10. :rolleyes:True, but I am questioning whether Hunter is with $15 mil a year now, at age 32, not 37. And Hunter's numbers wouldn't be good as a RF either. I was merely saying the "move him to DH" solution is terrible. But I agree with you. You have to take some risks. Hunter shouldn't ever be mentioned in the same breathe as A-Rod, but I agree with your last sentence. As I said in my last post, certain people (and it will be the same people either way) are going to say the Sox made a terrible decision no matter what they do with Hunter. I trust KW will make the right call.

oeo
11-07-2007, 10:32 PM
Okay, so he moves to RF and Dye goes to DH...

Honestly, I don't understand people worrying about how the contract will affect the team in 4 years. We need TorIIIII NOW. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet on a contract which may or may not be a bad one when it gets toward the end for results now because that is what the market demands.

It's not a freaking video game, you cannot make every move a perfect one, period. There are very few ideal solutions and most of them come from catching lightning in a bottle and growing a HOF player through your farm system, but that only lasts about 3 years and then you have to put up or lose them.

I've said it before, I'll say it again...

The Sox could sign ARod to a 10 year 15M/yr contract and there would be people whining about whether he would be worth it in years 8-10. :rolleyes:

Alright, so when we're handcuffed in a few years, and back to another 72-win team, then what?

Signing Hunter does not guarantee that we will win another title, or even reach the postseason. As a matter of fact, right now, it's not looking like a postseason contender can be built in just this one offseason. Think about it; even if Kenny can rebuild the bullpen and fill the holes in the OF, the leadoff spot, still maybe a new SS...there's still question marks in the rotation. Whether we go with Contreras or a young guy, we don't know what we're going to get. Will Danks show improvement? I bet both Masset and Floyd are with the team since the organization is high on them...how do they perform?

So maybe next year sets up for 2009...we've already wasted one of two, maybe three years of Hunter's prime.

I don't think he's worth it. He's highly overrated (especially here); he's not some huge offensive force like most people are saying, and he doesn't cover nearly as much ground as he used to in CF. And just his presence isn't magically going to turn a 4th place team into a contender.

If it happens, I'm not going to whine about it. I've gone back and forth on the issue. But every time he runs into a wall, dives for a flyball, runs a catcher over, etc., I'll be holding my breath.

voodoochile
11-07-2007, 10:44 PM
Alright, so when we're handcuffed in a few years, and back to another 72-win team, then what?

Signing Hunter does not guarantee that we will win another title, or even reach the postseason. As a matter of fact, right now, it's not looking like a postseason contender can be built in just this one offseason. Think about it; even if Kenny can rebuild the bullpen and fill the holes in the OF, the leadoff spot, still maybe a new SS...there's still question marks in the rotation. Whether we go with Contreras or a young guy, we don't know what we're going to get. Will Danks show improvement? I bet both Masset and Floyd are with the team since the organization is high on them...how do they perform?

So maybe next year sets up for 2009...we've already wasted one of two, maybe three years of Hunter's prime.

I don't think he's worth it. He's highly overrated (especially here), and just his presence isn't magically going to turn a 4th place team into a contender.

Well in a few years, PK, Thome, Dye, Contreras, Javy and Garland are all off the books, so there should be plenty of money to throw around.

It certainly opens up possibilities for trading Crede and/or some minor league starting pitching for more than a CF. In effect it might allow the Sox to upgrade both CF and LF or acquire more bullpen help through trades. Acquiring any upgrade for purely money is always a good thing.

That 4th place team had one rotten run of luck last year. If they can improve on nothing else but luck this season, they should be good for a much higher finish. If the players who had off years last year be that from injuries or regression can return to their career norms, there is no reason to think the Sox aren't a player or two away from competing for the ALC title. Yeah, I'm an optimist, but how anyone can look at last year as "the norm" for the players on the team is beyond me.

In response to the question about whether TorIIII is worth 15M now the answer is that if the market says he is, he is. If that's the cost of upgrading CF then that's what you pay. Anyone wants to suggest a cheaper alternative which gives the Sox the upgrade they need offensively and defensively, I'm all eyes.

oeo
11-07-2007, 10:48 PM
In response to the question about whether TorIIII is worth 15M now the answer is that if the market says he is, he is. If that's the cost of upgrading CF then that's what you pay. Anyone wants to suggest a cheaper alternative which gives the Sox the upgrade they need offensively and defensively, I'm all eyes.

You trade for it. Michael Bourn would have been nice, Willy Taveras may become available, Coco Crisp. These are guys that will not cost a load of money or draft picks, are not about to breakdown, address our leadoff hole, and add that team speed that we're so sorely lacking.

And with that extra $10 million or so, we should be able to sign a reliever or two, or maybe another veteran starter if we trade Garland or Contreras.

Tragg
11-07-2007, 11:00 PM
You trade for it. Michael Bourn would have been nice, Willy Taveras may become available, Coco Crisp. These are guys that will not cost a load of money or draft picks, are not about to breakdown, address our leadoff hole, and add that team speed that we're so sorely lacking.

And with that extra $10 million or so, we should be able to sign a reliever or two, or maybe another veteran starter if we trade Garland or Contreras.

I agree. We have an obvious hole in CF, but the FA market isn't impressive and is overpriced. Boston pretty much has to trade Crisp. There are others. 5 years for hunter is really risky.

As for Bourn, although KW and Gillick trade a lot, we didn't have a reliever for them and Guillen likes veterans and bourn's not a cinch.

voodoochile
11-07-2007, 11:01 PM
You trade for it. Michael Bourn would have been nice, Willy Taveras may become available, Coco Crisp. These are guys that will not cost a load of money or draft picks, are not about to breakdown, address our leadoff hole, and add that team speed that we're so sorely lacking.

And with that extra $10 million or so, we should be able to sign a reliever or two, or maybe another veteran starter if we trade Garland or Contreras.

Well, I hope that's possible without weakening the starting pitching too much. If the Sox can acquire upgrades for prospects or Crede, great, if not, I still think they should go after TorIIII...

Taliesinrk
11-08-2007, 08:16 AM
Well, I hope that's possible without weakening the starting pitching too much. If the Sox can acquire upgrades for prospects or Crede, great, if not, I still think they should go after TorIIII...

I agree with two caveats. 1: they can't handcuff themselves too much so that we're stuck with JO at leadoff next year. (although despite popular opinion here, Pods coming back intrigues me) 2. 5 yrs seems like a lot for Hunter.. How old would he be at the end of that time period?

voodoochile
11-08-2007, 08:33 AM
I agree with two caveats. 1: they can't handcuff themselves too much so that we're stuck with JO at leadoff next year. (although despite popular opinion here, Pods coming back intrigues me) 2. 5 yrs seems like a lot for Hunter.. How old would he be at the end of that time period?

Well, if you re-sign Pods then you have to decide what to do with Crede/fields situation, because if Pods comes back, one of those two has to get traded or ride the bench. I simply don't see the Sox trading Paulie and moving Fields to first at this point in time.

Oh and someone earlier said TorIIII will be 37 when the contract is up.

Lillian
11-08-2007, 08:41 AM
We all know that Kenny Williams rarely does anything obvious, nor does he publicly announce his true intentions. With that in mind, we should be very skeptical of all of these open overtures toward Hunter. If you couple that with the conspicuous lack of mention of the other most likely alternative, A. Rowand, I would guess that Kenny actually favors bringing Aaron back over Hunter.

There are several reasons why Rowand could be the better choice. He is two years younger than Hunter. The number of years on the contract have to be a real concern for a guy who will be 33 this year. We have discussed how problematic Hunter's 5 year deal will be when he is 37 and 38.
He has a better career on base percentage. Aaron's career OBP is 20 points higher than Torii's. In fact Aaron's worst year in the last 5 years was as good as Torii's career average OBP.

Their Slugging percentages are almost identical, but Aaron has the edge in Batting Avg. Overall, they are very comparable offensively.

Defensively, I think they are both overrated, for reasons that many of you astute observers have given. They are both good defensive centerfielders, however.

The big issue is the contract. Rowand could probably be signed to a much better deal, especially with the Sox, for whom he would likely give a discount, given his feelings about Chicago, and the organization.
The intangible here is that you have to love a guy who feels a genuine connection with a city, and its team. This is such a refreshing contrast with the mercenary nature of today's Pro athletes.

If we sign one of those two to a long term F.A. deal, my money is on ARow.

Rockabilly
11-08-2007, 09:03 AM
Torrii will be on ESPn radio in about 20 mins

Taliesinrk
11-08-2007, 09:03 AM
Well, if you re-sign Pods then you have to decide what to do with Crede/fields situation, because if Pods comes back, one of those two has to get traded or ride the bench. I simply don't see the Sox trading Paulie and moving Fields to first at this point in time.

Oh and someone earlier said TorIIII will be 37 when the contract is up.

But doesn't that make it possible to trade crede for a CF?

and do u think that Pods coming back is a possiblility? 37s old for a CF known for his "D".

voodoochile
11-08-2007, 09:46 AM
But doesn't that make it possible to trade crede for a CF?

and do u think that Pods coming back is a possiblility? 37s old for a CF known for his "D".

Well, that's 5 years away too. He might move to LF or RF by then and still be productive if he can still hit. Personally, I don't worry about that so much. If this is the market price and length of contract the rest doesn't matter. If the Sox don't offer it someone will. Offering one less year and thus less money isn't going to get it done. Sometimes you have to make those decisions and hope the end doesn't bite you in the ass down the road.

Like I said, sometimes the best decisions aren't the ideal ones. Ideally the Sox could land Hunter for 3 years, $45M, but realistically that isn't going to happen. If it's the best move to sign Hunter than you don't worry about the end of it all, you worry about the now and do what it takes to get it done.

russ99
11-08-2007, 09:54 AM
I agree. We have an obvious hole in CF, but the FA market isn't impressive and is overpriced. Boston pretty much has to trade Crisp. There are others. 5 years for hunter is really risky.

As for Bourn, although KW and Gillick trade a lot, we didn't have a reliever for them and Guillen likes veterans and bourn's not a cinch.

As for Bourn, the Astros are rebuilding and can make a deal trading a high-priced vet for a potential high-ceiling CF prospect and then play him every day.

I don't think the Sox have the same luxury, with our return-to contention (and sell tickets) mentality. I think signing Hunter or Rowand is a neccessity. As overpriced as they may be, the Sox have to overbid in order to sign one as a FA. That's the way it works despite Kenny and Jerry's wishes to the contrary.

I wouldn't put Crisp in the same category of Bourn either. Crisp may have speed but it's not track-star speed. The other difference is that Bourn is a pretty good prospect, and Crisp used to be a good prospect but he hasn't exactly panned out as advertised.

broker3d
11-08-2007, 10:14 AM
Torrii will be on ESPn radio in about 20 mins

Is there a replay of this? I heard from someone that it was VERY pro-White Sox by Tori.

spiffie
11-08-2007, 10:19 AM
Well in a few years, PK, Thome, Dye, Contreras, Javy and Garland are all off the books, so there should be plenty of money to throw around.

It certainly opens up possibilities for trading Crede and/or some minor league starting pitching for more than a CF. In effect it might allow the Sox to upgrade both CF and LF or acquire more bullpen help through trades. Acquiring any upgrade for purely money is always a good thing.

That 4th place team had one rotten run of luck last year. If they can improve on nothing else but luck this season, they should be good for a much higher finish. If the players who had off years last year be that from injuries or regression can return to their career norms, there is no reason to think the Sox aren't a player or two away from competing for the ALC title. Yeah, I'm an optimist, but how anyone can look at last year as "the norm" for the players on the team is beyond me.

In response to the question about whether TorIIII is worth 15M now the answer is that if the market says he is, he is. If that's the cost of upgrading CF then that's what you pay. Anyone wants to suggest a cheaper alternative which gives the Sox the upgrade they need offensively and defensively, I'm all eyes.
I think the problem is that things weren't all that surprising. Dye regressed from his career year in 2006. He likely will improve some, but at this point it seems unlikely he will have that much of an overall improvement. Jim Thome is getting older, and his back trouble is unlikely to significantly abate, so I would say it would be likely he will be slightly less productive this year than last. Joe Crede is a crapshoot, as who knows how he will return from back surgery. AJ will hopefully improve his BA a little bit from last year, but he's had some miles on him, and is unlikely do much more than what he did in 2005 when his numbers were almost identical to last year. Juan Uribe seems like a lost cause, a player who has gotten slower, fatter, and less able to do anything but his his 20 HR every year. Richar, Owens, Fields, etc. all could continue to progress, or they could easily end up stagnating.

The bullpen is full of guys who have had at most one or two good years in the majors outside of Jenks, with a ton of inconsistency. The bullpen might be as good, better, or worse than last year.

Jose Contreras is another year older next season. We actually got pretty good years out of our other three main starters, and if anything I would expect Javy to backslide a bit. Danks/Floyd/whomever else we put in the #5 hole is a total shot in the dark in many ways.

I think we'll be better next year. I don't know if simply expecting improvement from the guys we have chosen to keep (and so far that's damn near everyone) is enough to justify making one big acquisition to try and get over the top. I feel like if people are healthy this is about a .500 team next year with what we currently have. Does Torii Hunter give you the extra 10-15 wins needed to make the playoffs? I don't think so. I hope if he comes that I'm wrong.

balke
11-08-2007, 10:19 AM
CF needs some range next season if Dye's gonna be in RF. If the Sox do get Hunter, is there a possibility Dye goes? I'm sure someone would take him and the Sox probably wouldn't hesitate to bring up Sweeney.

Hendu
11-08-2007, 10:23 AM
The annual dollar amount sounds about right, but for 5 years? :o: I don't like that deal in years 3-5 when age and the astroturf miles on Torii's legs will probably start catching up with him.

Rockabilly
11-08-2007, 10:25 AM
Is there a replay of this? I heard from someone that it was VERY pro-White Sox by Tori.


Torrii will be meeting with KW on sunday and he had alot of great things to say about Chicago, US Celluar, Ozzie and Sox fans.. I predict he will be signing with the Sox by thanksgiving

Taliesinrk
11-08-2007, 10:47 AM
Torrii will be meeting with KW on sunday and he had alot of great things to say about Chicago, US Celluar, Ozzie and Sox fans.. I predict he will be signing with the Sox by thanksgiving

wow.. is this just a "i feel good today" aka "crying in the beer by october" prediction, or do u actually have some info here?

which is fine either way, i wasnt trying to be a dick .. just wondering

Sockinchisox
11-08-2007, 10:49 AM
Torrii will be meeting with KW on sunday and he had alot of great things to say about Chicago, US Celluar, Ozzie and Sox fans.. I predict he will be signing with the Sox by thanksgiving

I would be shocked if he signed anywhere before the Winter Meetings, I recall him saying he was going to go to the Winter Meetings to see what teams were doing, so unless KW blows him away with an offer I would wait until the meetings to see him sign somewhere.

Rockabilly
11-08-2007, 10:55 AM
I would be shocked if he signed anywhere before the Winter Meetings, I recall him saying he was going to go to the Winter Meetings to see what teams were doing, so unless KW blows him away with an offer I would wait until the meetings to see him sign somewhere.


I believe I heard a report yesterday that the Sox will offer Hunter 5/75M which I think Torrii wants..

During the ESPN interview Torrii said he only has a meeting with the Sox could be just talk but I do know he has alot of family here in Chicago..

The Dude
11-08-2007, 11:05 AM
I don't want any part of Hunter... especially for that duration... if it's true and he accepts I am going to have a real sour taste in my mouth about being a SOX fan...

Get a clue.:rolleyes:

Why would that make you feel sour? It's not your money and who's to say this would be all they do this offseason? Complaining about something that hasn't happened (signing the top CF on the market) is insane! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

chisoxmike
11-08-2007, 11:07 AM
Torrii will be meeting with KW on sunday and he had alot of great things to say about Chicago, US Celluar, Ozzie and Sox fans.. I predict he will be signing with the Sox by thanksgiving


:rolling:

Really? What did he say?

russ99
11-08-2007, 11:09 AM
I would be shocked if he signed anywhere before the Winter Meetings, I recall him saying he was going to go to the Winter Meetings to see what teams were doing, so unless KW blows him away with an offer I would wait until the meetings to see him sign somewhere.

I completely agree. I really doubt Hunter will just up and sign with the Sox without getting offers and info from the other interested teams. It's not like Dye's situation in 05, Hunter is a high-profile in-demand player.

C'mon you guys, he's playing the field. I'd bet he gave the same speech for the radio/TV outlets down in Dallas.

I still think there's an excellent chance he'll sign with the Sox, but he won't do it blindly.

Huisj
11-08-2007, 11:21 AM
Hunter would be excellent for a few years probably, but wouldn't be be 38 by the end of a 5-year contract? Will he still a $15 million center fielder by then? That worries me a little bit.

Rockabilly
11-08-2007, 11:26 AM
Hunter would be excellent for a few years probably, but wouldn't be be 38 by the end of a 5-year contract? Will he still a $15 million center fielder by then? That worries me a little bit.


When he is like 37 years old he will be our DH and KW will go out and sign some other player, so i'm not to worried about his age than especially if Hunter can get us back into the world series

jabrch
11-08-2007, 12:16 PM
I'd rather take Rowand somewhere around 12mil/year for 5 years (assuming he'd be getting less than Torii on the market, and that's a big assumption).

Except that Aaron has already said he wants 6 years and 84mm...

eriqjaffe
11-08-2007, 12:45 PM
Except that Aaron has already said he wants 6 years and 84mm...Sosa said he wants $7 million. Doesn't mean he's going to get it.

Gammons Peter
11-08-2007, 01:01 PM
I no longer want him now that Carl Crawford or Miggy Cabrera can be had. I would love it if we could get one of those guysand I could live with Owens or Anderson in CF if we were able to get that caliber of hitter.

dickallen15
11-08-2007, 01:10 PM
Rosenthal said the Phillies believe Rowand will get a 4 year $52 million contract.

Foulke You
11-08-2007, 02:12 PM
Hunter would be excellent for a few years probably, but wouldn't be be 38 by the end of a 5-year contract? Will he still a $15 million center fielder by then? That worries me a little bit.
Salaries will continue to rise in baseball as the years progress. The teams are making more money now than they ever have which means they have more to spend. There is a solid chance that by the time year 4 or 5 of that Hunter deal rolls around, $15 million for might be considered average salary for an above average outfielder. This trend will probably continue. As Voodoo pointed out, $15 million is the going rate for an all star CF these days. Soriano gets $18 million, Manny gets $17 million, Byrnes gets $10 million, JD Drew gets $11 million, and so on. If we want to improve our outfield, we have to pay up just like everyone else unless KW can make a trade that won't cripple the team in the pitching dept.

Sockinchisox
11-08-2007, 02:14 PM
New Hunter article on whitesox.com, Hunter was on ESPN 1000 recently I guess and they pull some his quotes about Chicago and Sox Fans. (Was this the quotes you were talking about Rockabilly?)

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071108&content_id=2295904&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Some Quotes:

"I play well in Chicago," said Hunter during his chat with hosts Tom Waddle and Marc Silverman on ESPN AM 1000. "The grass is true [at U.S. Cellular Field], and everything is going good for that place right now." This Gold Glove center fielder, who just took home his seventh straight defensive prize from Rawlings, also gave high marks to White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen. Hunter knows Guillen from both his playing days and as the man in charge, talking about Guillen, "the character," and the guy cracking jokes during batting practice and during the course of a game.
The fact that Guillen is a "player's manager" also seems appealing to Hunter.


"He sticks up for his players," said Hunter of Guillen. "There might be a chance I probably would play for him one day."
"I could hit 35 home runs at U.S. Cellular, and I could steal about 20," said Hunter with a laugh. "I love that wall. I have a lot of family and friends in Chicago.

"It has always been fun for me there. If it wasn't fun, I wouldn't be talking to Kenny Williams on Sunday."

Gammons Peter
11-08-2007, 02:27 PM
yeah right, 35 homers. He has never hit 35 home runsand he plays in the little twinkie dome where the "wind" always blows out for the home team

ChiSoxFan35
11-08-2007, 02:36 PM
Every year when they play he says he likes the city and the fans getting on him, he attributed it to the rivalry and loved it

rowand33
11-08-2007, 02:55 PM
sign him.

However, somebody still has to leadoff for this team.

Where is that going to come from?

I could live with this lineup:

Damon-LF
Fields- 3B
Thome- DH
Konerko-1B
Hunter-CF
Dye-RF
AJ-C
Uribe-SS
Richar-2B

especially if we bring in competition for Uribe. It isn't my preference, but if we improve the bullpen and field this lineup, I'll allow myself to be optimistic about next season.

russ99
11-08-2007, 03:08 PM
Every year when they play he says he likes the city and the fans getting on him, he attributed it to the rivalry and loved it

Yeah. Hunter's like one of those A.J. guys, you hate him, but love him when he plays for your team.

How many days before the signing period starts... :D:

JermaineDye05
11-08-2007, 03:18 PM
New Hunter article on whitesox.com, Hunter was on ESPN 1000 recently I guess and they pull some his quotes about Chicago and Sox Fans. (Was this the quotes you were talking about Rockabilly?)

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071108&content_id=2295904&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Some Quotes:

The quote where he said about not wanting to sign somewhere if there's a wall that prevents him from robbing homeruns was interesting. I think that rules out Texas, since the only homer I can remember being robbed was that ridiculous catch from Matthews. Considering he talked about how much he knows the Cell and how he likes the field, I really feel optimistic that Torii will sign here, (knock on wood). I don't want to get my hopes up, because I know anythings possible.

October26
11-08-2007, 04:30 PM
Every year when they play he says he likes the city and the fans getting on him, he attributed it to the rivalry and loved it

You know what? I'm one of those Sox fans that gets on Torri's case, but if he signs with the Sox, you betcha I'm gonna love him! C'mon Kenny, get it done...

Sockinchisox
11-08-2007, 11:53 PM
OMG, I just took a listen to the interview Waddle and Silvy did with him, and did they embarrass the **** out of him. Especially at the end, force feeding him White Sox. Waddle even said twice "So when you sign with the White Sox, promise us that you'll come back on". And Silvy told him to get used to the Go Go Sox theme song and played it for him before he got off the phone.

Foulke You
11-09-2007, 11:34 AM
You know what? I'm one of those Sox fans that gets on Torri's case, but if he signs with the Sox, you betcha I'm gonna love him! C'mon Kenny, get it done...
Absolutely. I couldn't stand Hunter all these years. However, if he signs with the Sox, he is one of us and I'll love him. I never thought AJ Pierzynski would become one of my favorites either but he did. Hunter could definitely become another AJ to Sox fans if he signs here.

beck72
11-09-2007, 12:32 PM
Hunter would be excellent for a few years probably, but wouldn't be be 38 by the end of a 5-year contract? Will he still a $15 million center fielder by then? That worries me a little bit.
Hunter seems like a good enough athlete that he could probably move over to LF or RF by the end of his deal.

santo=dorf
11-11-2007, 10:30 AM
yeah right, 35 homers. He has never hit 35 home runsand he plays in the little twinkie dome where the "wind" always blows out for the home team
Not only that, he's saying he could hit 35 at USCF alone! :o:

He's hit 13 homers at USCF in 218 career at bats here, but his batting average and OBP suck; .252, .314 respectively.

For KW to come out and talk about how crazy the free agent market has gotten, and how there would be a "market correction," it would be completely hypocritical for him to give a deal like this to Torii Hunter.

balke
11-11-2007, 11:07 AM
Not only that, he's saying he could hit 35 at USCF alone! :o:

He's hit 13 homers at USCF in 218 career at bats here, but his batting average and OBP suck; .252, .314 respectively.

For KW to come out and talk about how crazy the free agent market has gotten, and how there would be a "market correction," it would be completely hypocritical for him to give a deal like this to Torii Hunter.

What's your plan for CF? There's no better fit than Hunter. They already committed to JD, who has slowly turned into a liability in RF defensively. You don't want Pods or Erstad. What's the answer to the OF question? Start Jerry Owens, and then wait for him to pull a hammy so Ozuna can take over duties?

voodoochile
11-11-2007, 11:12 AM
Not only that, he's saying he could hit 35 at USCF alone! :o:

He's hit 13 homers at USCF in 218 career at bats here, but his batting average and OBP suck; .252, .314 respectively.

For KW to come out and talk about how crazy the free agent market has gotten, and how there would be a "market correction," it would be completely hypocritical for him to give a deal like this to Torii Hunter.

Yeah, but that's been facing Sox pitching which has been pretty solid for the majority of Hunter's career.

Cause may not equal effect in this case...

santo=dorf
11-11-2007, 11:22 AM
What's your plan for CF? There's no better fit than Hunter. They already committed to JD, who has slowly turned into a liability in RF defensively. You don't want Pods or Erstad. What's the answer to the OF question? Start Jerry Owens, and then wait for him to pull a hammy so Ozuna can take over duties?
I think if you can get Rowand (ugh) for a deal around $10-11 million per (how insane is that?) you go with that just because he can actually put asses in the seats.

The Sox have a LOT of work to do, and I don't think they can do it in one offseason unless they go on a huge spending spree. Why mortgage the future even more by handcuffing yourself to a massive contract? It'd be like a struggling family's rabbit ears antenna snapping and then deciding to rush out to Best Buy and buy the 73" flat screen TV that a lot of people are talking about. It's even worse when that TV isn't as good as it is advertised and probably won't live up to its value after 3 years.

Sockinchisox
11-11-2007, 11:43 AM
I think if you can get Rowand (ugh) for a deal around $10-11 million per (how insane is that?) you go with that just because he can actually put asses in the seats.

The Sox have a LOT of work to do, and I don't think they can do it in one offseason unless they go on a huge spending spree. Why mortgage the future even more by handcuffing yourself to a massive contract? It'd be like a struggling family's rabbit ears antenna snapping and then deciding to rush out to Best Buy and buy the 73" flat screen TV that a lot of people are talking about. It's even worse when that TV isn't as good as it is advertised and probably won't live up to its value after 3 years.

Not gonna happen, Rowand wants 14 mil/year.

JohnTucker0814
11-11-2007, 11:44 AM
I think if you can get Rowand (ugh) for a deal around $10-11 million per (how insane is that?) you go with that just because he can actually put asses in the seats.

The Sox have a LOT of work to do, and I don't think they can do it in one offseason unless they go on a huge spending spree. Why mortgage the future even more by handcuffing yourself to a massive contract? It'd be like a struggling family's rabbit ears antenna snapping and then deciding to rush out to Best Buy and buy the 73" flat screen TV that a lot of people are talking about. It's even worse when that TV isn't as good as it is advertised and probably won't live up to its value after 3 years.

I think we'd be handcuffing ourselves more for Rowand at 10 to 11 million a year than to go with Torii for 15.. Just my opinion! I think there is more of a chance of Rowand sucking over the next 3-4 years than there is for Torii. I feel like Torii can play a great CF for the next 3 years minimum and if we need to, we can either move him to LF for a younger CF or move him to DH. I think with the history of Torii you have to go with him over the 1 year of Rowand.

churlish
11-11-2007, 12:15 PM
especially if we bring in competition for Uribe. It isn't my preference, but if we improve the bullpen and field this lineup, I'll allow myself to be optimistic about next season.

I think there is plenty of reason for optimism next year. The Sox lost 90 games, and they fell out of contention with a 5-22 stretch (or something awful like that) when the bullpen seemed to implode every game. If the bullpen returns to an average pen, you're already talking about a .500 team. If Danks can improve upon last year, that's another solid starting pitcher to add to Buehrle, Vazquez, and Garland. If Hunter's signed, that improves center fielder tremendously. Add in the obligatory "bounce back" year and this team can contend.

The biggest offensive worry is who can leadoff. If Hunter is signed and Fields is in LF with Crede at 3B, every playoff but Richar has 20 HR potential, but there's very little speed in that lineup. It'll be an exciting offseason for sure.

SoxSpeed22
11-11-2007, 12:20 PM
Yeah, but that's been facing Sox pitching which has been pretty solid for the majority of Hunter's career.

Cause may not equal effect in this case...OK. Three year splits from ESPN...
By Stadium AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Comerica Park 92 13 23 2 0 1 6 8 0 12 1 0 .250 .307 .304 .611
Jacobs Field 93 12 19 6 0 4 1 6 5 0 14 1 1 .204 .242 .398 .640
Kauffman Stadium 106 9 27 8 1 1 15 10 4 20 0 2 .255 .339 .377 .716
U.S. Cellular Field 68 12 17 3 0 6 13 6 0 15 3 0 .250 .307 .559 .866
Metrodome 739 122 212 45 1 32 127 58 11 143 37 11 .287 .345 .480 .825
I think he would be a great addition for defense and speed, but the fact is that the Sox are getting another right-handed, pull hitter that doesn't get on base very well. That's not something I want to pay $15 Million per year for.
Edit: Fixed stat mess.

upperdeckusc
11-11-2007, 12:40 PM
Not gonna happen, Rowand wants 14 mil/year.

theres a difference between what he wants and what he'll get. rowand hasn't proven himself enough on offense to warrant 14 mil/year. 4/48 or 5/60 TOPS, probably less.

oeo
11-11-2007, 12:43 PM
theres a difference between what he wants and what he'll get. rowand hasn't proven himself enough on offense to warrant 14 mil/year. 4/48 or 5/60 TOPS, probably less.

I think he gets 13 per. He has a Gold Glove now, and he's just as proven offensively (if not more so) than Hunter. People forget that we expected a year like his 2007 back in 2005. It didn't happen, and then he spent a lot of time with injuries in 2006. I think Rowand's better than most people think around here.

Personally, I think the jury is still out on him, but all this, 'hahaha, Rowand sucks' crap is ridiculous.

spiffie
11-11-2007, 01:31 PM
I think he gets 13 per. He has a Gold Glove now, and he's just as proven offensively (if not more so) than Hunter. People forget that we expected a year like his 2007 back in 2005. It didn't happen, and then he spent a lot of time with injuries in 2006. I think Rowand's better than most people think around here.

Personally, I think the jury is still out onhim, but all this, 'hahaha, Rowand sucks' crap is ridiculous.
Don't you know Aaron Rowand is the worst player in baseball history?

Rowand's career line: 286/343/463/806
Hunter's career line: 271/324/469/793

Rockabilly
11-11-2007, 01:33 PM
has it been reported in Chicago today about Hunter meeting with KW went today.

getonbckthr
11-11-2007, 01:35 PM
has it been reported in Chicago today about Hunter meeting with KW went today.
Hunter said it Thursday in an interview with Silvy and Waddle.

Sockinchisox
11-11-2007, 01:47 PM
He was asking if anyone reported how well or bad the meeting went today, and no, nothing has been reported.

santo=dorf
11-11-2007, 01:54 PM
Don't you know Aaron Rowand is the worst player in baseball history?

Rowand's career line: 286/343/463/806
Hunter's career line: 271/324/469/793
I'm begging for someone who supports a Hunter signing for money and years over Rowand to explain this.

Hunter and Rowand are both gold glovers, and Rowand has a better career line than Hunter.

What sense does it make to bring Hunter in over Rowand, and if Rowand was so bad when he was here, why should we sign the older guy for more money and more years whose offensive production is actually on the same level as Rowand?

balke
11-11-2007, 01:59 PM
I'm begging for someone who supports a Hunter signing for money and years over Rowand to explain this.

Hunter and Rowand are both gold glovers, and Rowand has a better career line than Hunter.

What sense does it make to bring Hunter in over Rowand, and if Rowand was so bad when he was here, why should we sign the older guy for more money and more years whose offensive production is actually on the same level as Rowand?

Making sure he stays away from Minnesota, much better PR, much better defense. Rowand is definitely good, but you can't compare the 2's D GG or not.

For the record I'd take either without complaint. Also, for the record I don't necessarily trust either signing to live up the hype it'll produce. Hunter is a GIDP nightmare, and Rowand is an enigma offensively.

MisterB
11-11-2007, 02:02 PM
Don't you know Aaron Rowand is the worst player in baseball history?

Rowand's career line: 286/343/463/806
Hunter's career line: 271/324/469/793

Yes, but which Rowand are you paying for?

2005-2006 averages: .267/.325/.411, 13 hr, 58 rbi
2004 & 2007 averages: .310/.368/.525 25 hr, 79 rbi

No way I'd pay $13M/year for line one.

munchman33
11-11-2007, 02:06 PM
I'm begging for someone who supports a Hunter signing for money and years over Rowand to explain this.

Hunter and Rowand are both gold glovers, and Rowand has a better career line than Hunter.

What sense does it make to bring Hunter in over Rowand, and if Rowand was so bad when he was here, why should we sign the older guy for more money and more years whose offensive production is actually on the same level as Rowand?

Rowands only two good offensive seasons were contract years.

Daver
11-11-2007, 02:20 PM
I'm begging for someone who supports a Hunter signing for money and years over Rowand to explain this.

Hunter and Rowand are both gold glovers, and Rowand has a better career line than Hunter.

What sense does it make to bring Hunter in over Rowand, and if Rowand was so bad when he was here, why should we sign the older guy for more money and more years whose offensive production is actually on the same level as Rowand?


Hunter is a center fielder and Rowand isn't.

oeo
11-11-2007, 02:25 PM
Rowands only two good offensive seasons were contract years.

I can do this too...
2005 was an off year, and 2006 was injury-plagued.

Again, the jury is still out on Rowand. Half of his career has been very good, the other half has been pretty average. After he proved he can repeat what he did in 2004 this past year, I don't have a doubt that he can hit at least somewhere in between the two extremes.

DickAllen72
11-11-2007, 02:27 PM
Hunter is a center fielder and Rowand isn't.
Sign Hunter for CF and Rowand for LF.

Rowand can play all three OF positions well.

oeo
11-11-2007, 02:28 PM
Sign Hunter for CF and Rowand for LF.

Rowand can play all three OF positions well.

Since when is the team made of money? And then what do you do about the leadoff position? Are we going to sign Luis Castillo, too?

Daver
11-11-2007, 02:31 PM
Sign Hunter for CF and Rowand for LF.

Rowand can play all three OF positions well.

No, he can't.

DickAllen72
11-11-2007, 02:33 PM
Since when is the team made of money? And then what do you do about the leadoff position? Are we going to sign Luis Castillo, too?
That's what happens when your minor league system doesn't produce. If you still want to win, you have to overpay for free agents. The Sox can easily afford both Rowand and Hunter anyway.

As for leadoff, Rowand would be fine.

DickAllen72
11-11-2007, 02:35 PM
No, he can't.
If you really believe that Rowand is a poor defensive outfielder, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

gogosox16
11-11-2007, 02:35 PM
That's what happens when your minor league system doesn't produce. If you still want to win, you have to overpay for free agents. The Sox can easily afford both Rowand and Hunter anyway.

As for leadoff, Rowand would be fine.
Rowand as leadoff??? That would be messed up and I dont see him as a leadoff guy ever in his career. doesnt have the tools to be one.

FedEx227
11-11-2007, 02:37 PM
Rowand as leadoff??? That would be messed up and I dont see him as a leadoff guy ever in his career. doesnt have the tools to be one.

No dude, Rowand can do anything you need him to do and then some.

He can play all 3 OF positions, 3B, SS, Catcher... but he can also leadoff or hit cleanup.

Basically he's better than Roberto Clemente.

DickAllen72
11-11-2007, 02:40 PM
Rowand as leadoff??? That would be messed up and I dont see him as a leadoff guy ever in his career. doesnt have the tools to be one.
He had a .372 OBP last season. Although not a speedburner, he has decent speed. Not the ideal leadoff guy, but better than most of the options people have been suggesting for the 2008 Sox (Damon, Podsednik, Erstad, Owens, etc.).

DickAllen72
11-11-2007, 02:44 PM
No dude, Rowand can do anything you need him to do and then some.

He can play all 3 OF positions, 3B, SS, Catcher... but he can also leadoff or hit cleanup.

Basically he's better than Roberto Clemente.
What a senseless, ridiculous post.

Rowand is a solid defensive outfielder with a decent bat who has a great attitude and plays hard. He's better than anyone the Sox currently have on their roster as far as LFer's and Cfer's are concerned, and plays a better defensive RF than an aging Dye.

He's not a prototypical leadoff man, but he's better than anyone the Sox currently have to leadoff.

FedEx227
11-11-2007, 02:48 PM
What a senseless, ridiculous post.

Rowand is a solid defensive outfielder with a decent bat who has a great attitude and plays hard. He's better than anyone the Sox currently have on their roster as far as LFer's and Cfer's are concerned, and plays a better defensive RF than an aging Dye.

He's not a prototypical leadoff man, but he's better than anyone the Sox currently have to leadoff.

Personally, as a Sox fan I'm sick of guys with good attitudes who play hard. We've had enough of them and they helped us to one of our worst records in recent memory.

How about we get some talent on this team?

You can live in a dream-world where passion and fire dictates baseball skills I'll take people who can actually do it on the field.

DickAllen72
11-11-2007, 02:56 PM
Personally, as a Sox fan I'm sick of guys with good attitudes who play hard.
I'm not. We had guys like that in 2005 who led us to a World series Championship. I love guys with good attitudes who play hard.

As for talent, I agree. Instead of trotting out the garbage their farm system has been producing (Brian Anderson, Andy Gonzalez, etc.) or signing broken down veterans (Erstad) they have to either trade for, or sign free agents who have proven they can play in the major leagues.

Aaron Rowand has proven to be a solid major league outfielder who has been on a World Champion, won a Gold Glove and has put up solid offensive numbers. Sure, you're going to have to pay him more than he's probably worth, but that's the nature of signing free agents when your own system doesn't produce anything better. At least you don't have to trade talent to get him, which is something the Sox can't afford to do.

munchman33
11-11-2007, 02:58 PM
I can do this too...
2005 was an off year, and 2006 was injury-plagued.

Again, the jury is still out on Rowand. Half of his career has been very good, the other half has been pretty average. After he proved he can repeat what he did in 2004 this past year, I don't have a doubt that he can hit at least somewhere in between the two extremes.


No, that his only two good offensive seasons were in years he was working for a contract is a FACT. That his lack of production in 2005 was an "off year" is your opinion. That his lack of production in 2006 was a result of injury and not a continuation of his career norm is your opinion.

Completely different types of reasoning.

hi im skot
11-11-2007, 03:43 PM
As for leadoff, Rowand would be fine.


:thud:

santo=dorf
11-11-2007, 03:47 PM
Rowands only two good offensive seasons were contract years.
How was 2004 a contract year? His service time didn't start until 2001. You need 6 years to become a free agent.

oeo
11-11-2007, 03:50 PM
No, that his only two good offensive seasons were in years he was working for a contract is a FACT. That his lack of production in 2005 was an "off year" is your opinion. That his lack of production in 2006 was a result of injury and not a continuation of his career norm is your opinion.

Completely different types of reasoning.

It's a fact that they were in contract years (although 2004 was not, I will go with your 'facts'), but total speculation that his performance was based on them being contract years.

So no, it's really not different at all.

Daver
11-11-2007, 03:51 PM
How was 2004 a contract year? His service time didn't start until 2001. You need 6 years to become a free agent.

Arbitration eligible.

oeo
11-11-2007, 03:54 PM
That's what happens when your minor league system doesn't produce. If you still want to win, you have to overpay for free agents. The Sox can easily afford both Rowand and Hunter anyway.

No, you don't go out on a spending spree. You take a couple years to bring the team back, or make some trades that better the team. Personally, I don't think a title contender can be built in this one offseason. I think Kenny can build a team that can win 80-85 games, and I think that's what he should do. Build for 2009, don't sacrifice the future even further by spending a ton of money. Then we'll have two baseball teams in Chicago that have no money to spend and are terrible in a few years.

As for leadoff, Rowand would be fine.I hope that's a joke.

doublem23
11-11-2007, 04:16 PM
No, you don't go out on a spending spree. You take a couple years to bring the team back, or make some trades that better the team. Personally, I don't think a title contender can be built in this one offseason. I think Kenny can build a team that can win 80-85 games, and I think that's what he should do. Build for 2009, don't sacrifice the future even further by spending a ton of money. Then we'll have two baseball teams in Chicago that have no money to spend and are terrible in a few years.

That also depends on where you think this team is. I personally think the Sox are 1-2 guys away from being a 95-win team capable of representing the American League in the World Series, so in that case, yes you go out and spend some money to bring in the guys you need.

I know they had a down year last year, but KW has stated he believes that was a fluke.

SoxxoS
11-11-2007, 04:18 PM
I'm not. We had guys like that in 2005 who led us to a World series Championship. I love guys with good attitudes who play hard.


The Sox didn't win a championship in 2005 b/c they had a team full of grinders. They won b/c they had great pitching, good defense and timely hitting. A good attitude and playing hard is great and all, but it doesn't equate to wins unless those players are good at baseball.

DickAllen72
11-11-2007, 05:41 PM
A good attitude and playing hard is great and all, but it doesn't equate to wins unless those players are good at baseball.
No ****, Sherlock.

DickAllen72
11-11-2007, 05:45 PM
I hope that's a joke.
As I said, Rowand is not the ideal leadoff man, but it's no more of a joke than Fields batting second.

If you had to choose between having either Owens, Podsednik, Erstad, Damon or Rowand playing LF and leading off for the 2008 Sox, which would you choose?

Daver
11-11-2007, 05:49 PM
As I said, Rowand is not the ideal leadoff man, but it's no more of a joke than Fields batting second.

If you had to choose between having either Owens, Podsednik, Erstad, Damon or Rowand playing LF and leading off for the 2008 Sox, which would you choose?

Podsednik, he takes pitchers and catchers out of their game when he is on base and forces them to play his game, which makes the number 2 hitter better.

doublem23
11-11-2007, 05:59 PM
Podsednik, he takes pitchers and catchers out of their game when he is on base and forces them to play his game, which makes the number 2 hitter better.

Yeah, but Scott has not been able to stay healthy, and at 32 years old, I don't see his legs rejuvenating and someone is definitely going to overpay for his services.

Daver
11-11-2007, 06:03 PM
Yeah, but Scott has not been able to stay healthy, and at 32 years old, I don't see his legs rejuvenating and someone is definitely going to overpay for his services.

My choice had nothing to do with payroll, all things being equal, I take Podsednick.

In the real world, I let Richar lead off.

DickAllen72
11-11-2007, 06:07 PM
Podsednik, he takes pitchers and catchers out of their game when he is on base and forces them to play his game, which makes the number 2 hitter better.
He certainly was outstanding at that a couple of years ago. If I was sure that Pods was likely to stay healthy and perform at that level again, I would also prefer him in LF leading off. But we're talking about 2008 not 2005, and I don't see Pods regaining his form while I'm confident Rowand would put up at least his career averages, if not slightly better. And Rowand is a better defensive outfielder than Pods and can play all three positions.

DickAllen72
11-11-2007, 06:10 PM
In the real world, I let Richar lead off.
I was hoping Ozzie would bat Richar second last season to see how he would handle the job and also to see how he would do with Thome, Konerko and Dye behind him. I don't know why Ozzie didn't try him out there, so I'm assuming Ozzie doesn't feel he's ready to bat at the top of the order yet.

Tragg
11-11-2007, 11:29 PM
I was hoping Ozzie would bat Richar second last season to see how he would handle the job and also to see how he would do with Thome, Konerko and Dye behind him. I don't know why Ozzie didn't try him out there, so I'm assuming Ozzie doesn't feel he's ready to bat at the top of the order yet.
Richar got on base in the mniors and the few times I watched him at the plate, it looks like he has a good eye. He took some walks, but his BA was so low that the OBP is low.
But Ozzie stuck him in the 8/9 hole the whole time he was there and never gave him a chance to hit in the top of the order. It seemed that Richar at 2, Fields at 5 would have made sense, but Ozzie insisted on Erstad hitting 5th (if not 1 or 2).

Sockinchisox
11-11-2007, 11:56 PM
The Royals (Yes, those Royals) have apparently entered the bidding for Hunter.

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/royals/story/357021.html

If we get outbid by the Royals....

upperdeckusc
11-12-2007, 01:55 AM
That also depends on where you think this team is. I personally think the Sox are 1-2 guys away from being a 95-win team capable of representing the American League in the World Series, so in that case, yes you go out and spend some money to bring in the guys you need.

I know they had a down year last year, but KW has stated he believes that was a fluke.

interesting. who are those 2 players or spots? CF and a bullpen arm? CF and SS? bullpen and leadoff? I think were at least 4 pieces away: CF, leadoff (preferably from the SS or LF spot) and 2 bullpen arms. i have some confidence in contreras with all the divorce b.s behind him and danks in yr 2 knowing what it takes to last a whole season. CF, bullpen, and leadoff, and we're in business.......


i hope......

upperdeckusc
11-12-2007, 01:57 AM
The Royals (Yes, those Royals) have apparently entered the bidding for Hunter.

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/royals/story/357021.html

If we get outbid by the Royals....

i cant recall off the top of my head, but how are the outfield walls in KC height-wise? would they suit hunters requirements of wanting an outfield of robbable walls? for some reason im trying to picture them and i'm thinking not, but i could be thinking of another park.

Lillian
11-12-2007, 06:18 AM
The Royals (Yes, those Royals) have apparently entered the bidding for Hunter.

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/royals/story/357021.html

If we get outbid by the Royals....

Hunter indicates that he wants to play in a "big market". If he is sincere, that would put the Royals in a very poor competitive position in trying to outbid the Sox.

soltrain21
11-12-2007, 10:15 AM
i cant recall off the top of my head, but how are the outfield walls in KC height-wise? would they suit hunters requirements of wanting an outfield of robbable walls? for some reason im trying to picture them and i'm thinking not, but i could be thinking of another park.

Royals have fences that make homeruns very robbable.

oeo
11-12-2007, 11:06 AM
I know they had a down year last year, but KW has stated he believes that was a fluke.

And I agree with him. I think the middle of the lineup hit well below their capabilities for the majority of the year. But there are other issues that I think Kenny is going to ignore, which will keep us from having a big increase in wins.

JermaineDye05
11-12-2007, 11:16 AM
Hunter indicates that he wants to play in a "big market". If he is sincere, that would put the Royals in a very poor competitive position in trying to outbid the Sox.

torii also said he wants to play on a winning team or a team that has a plan of winning in the immediate future, I think that rules out the Royals.

chisoxmike
11-12-2007, 11:18 AM
torii also said he wants to play on a winning team or a team that has a plan of winning in the immediate future, I think that rules out the Royals.


I wouldn't be too sure of that. They're getting there.

balke
11-12-2007, 12:56 PM
I wouldn't be too sure of that. They're getting there.

Getting there maybe, but they aren't there. Torii doesn't make them better than the Tigers or Twins or Indians, or probably even the White Sox. Put him on the White Sox, and he's on a team that can compete with the central.

Sockinchisox
11-12-2007, 01:49 PM
Yes and he also said he is scouting team's farm systems, which would seem to make us a long shot for him too.

ChiSoxFan35
11-12-2007, 01:55 PM
Here's a link about the Sox meeting with Hunter and where the scouting of farm systems/payroll obligations is talked about

http://www.startribune.com/twins/story/1544001.html

munchman33
11-12-2007, 02:37 PM
It's a fact that they were in contract years (although 2004 was not, I will go with your 'facts'), but total speculation that his performance was based on them being contract years.

So no, it's really not different at all.

I didn't say that was the reason. I only said his best years have come in contract years. And his bad ones came in non-contract years. Draw your own conclusions.

oeo
11-12-2007, 03:14 PM
I didn't say that was the reason. I only said his best years have come in contract years. And his bad ones came in non-contract years. Draw your own conclusions.

That's what you were getting at, otherwise you have no argument.

SBSoxFan
11-12-2007, 03:57 PM
Do you really want to sign a guy who lists a primary criteria as home-run-robbable walls?

spawn
11-12-2007, 04:08 PM
Do you really want to sign a guy who lists a primary criteria as home-run-robbable walls?
And that's a problem because...

Nellie_Fox
11-12-2007, 04:09 PM
Do you really want to sign a guy who lists a primary criteria as home-run-robbable walls?Sure. Why not? He enjoys doing it, and has said on many occasions that he'd rather rob a homer than hit one.

SBSoxFan
11-12-2007, 04:11 PM
And that's a problem because...

Doesn't sound, to me, like it's all about winning. And if it's not, a FA should say it is.

spawn
11-12-2007, 04:14 PM
Doesn't sound, to me, like it's all about winning. And if it's not, a FA should say it is.
My take on it is he enjoys playing defense, and he enjoys robbing hitters of homeruns. How is that not about winning?

munchman33
11-12-2007, 04:17 PM
That's what you were getting at, otherwise you have no argument.

My presentation of the facts should be obvious, yes. It's a logical conclusion that most people without serious man-love for Aaron Rowand will draw.

JermaineDye05
11-12-2007, 04:23 PM
Doesn't sound, to me, like it's all about winning. And if it's not, a FA should say it is.

If I'm signing Hunter it's because of his defense. He sounds as if defense is the most important thing to him which is good for me. Considering a lot of our pitchers tend to give up homeruns, it'll be good to have Torii rob a few of those. He's also made great clutch plays in the outfield, how could anyone forget that sensational catch he made on Uribe this season in the dome with the bases loaded and 2 outs.

santo=dorf
11-12-2007, 04:25 PM
I didn't say that was the reason. I only said his best years have come in contract years. And his bad ones came in non-contract years. Draw your own conclusions.
My conclusion is that you are the first baseball fan I have seen to call an arbitration eligible year as a "contract year."

Contract year = season before FREE AGENCY.

Has Joe Crede been in a contract year every year since 2003?

santo=dorf
11-12-2007, 05:15 PM
I really just don't get how after a ****ty season, the consensous at WSI is to get more "gritty" guys who put the ball in play, get on base, steal bases, don't rely on homers, and can bunt.

How does signing a free swinging hack like Hunter for $75 million+ fit into that mold?

---He strikes out over 100 times a season.
---Still grounds into about 17 double plays a year
---OBP sucks
---His SLG% mostly relies on his Home run totals (although last year in his contract year he had a lot of doubles)
---After fracturing his ankle in 2005, his SB% in each of the past two seasons was 66% with a total of only 30 SB combined over the same time frame.

Anyone?

Daver
11-12-2007, 05:19 PM
Anyone?


I'd sign Hunter in a heartbeat, he's an excellent defensive center fielder, he plays team baseball, and he is a perfect example to the young outfielders on how to play the position.

JohnTucker0814
11-12-2007, 05:40 PM
I really just don't get how after a ****ty season, the consensous at WSI is to get more "gritty" guys who put the ball in play, get on base, steal bases, don't rely on homers, and can bunt.

How does signing a free swinging hack like Hunter for $75 million+ fit into that mold?

---He strikes out over 100 times a season.
---Still grounds into about 17 double plays a year
---OBP sucks
---His SLG% mostly relies on his Home run totals (although last year in his contract year he had a lot of doubles)
---After fracturing his ankle in 2005, his SB% in each of the past two seasons was 66% with a total of only 30 SB combined over the same time frame.

Anyone?

In today's baseball who doesn't strikeout 100 times. At least he doesn't strikeout 200 times. 17 ground into DP... over 162 games, do you think this stat really shows that much??? Why are people down on Torii Hunter? Everyone complains their ass off when Mack is in CF saying how we need a defensive CFer. Well Hunter is a defensive CF and get this... he even hits some HR's and drives in some runs. He isn't scared to knock the **** out of the catcher if he's in the way... he is a BASEBALL player! Not a prima dona like some of these other guys in the league!

Sockinchisox
11-12-2007, 09:26 PM
Mark Gonzalez just put up an article about Hunter, stating the Sox are preparing to "pour their financial resources" into signing Hunter.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-071112sox,1,5296049.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

getonbckthr
11-12-2007, 09:43 PM
Mark Gonzalez just put up an article about Hunter, stating the Sox are preparing to "pour their financial resources" into signing Hunter.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-071112sox,1,5296049.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines
This is a little scary.

ChiSoxGirl
11-12-2007, 09:54 PM
This is a little scary.

I thought the same thing. Pouring a good chunk of our money into one free agent signing is pretty risky. :unsure: I guess all we can do is...

:hawk
Sit back, relax, and strap it down!

DumpJerry
11-12-2007, 10:10 PM
Mark Gonzalez just put up an article about Hunter, stating the Sox are preparing to "pour their financial resources" into signing Hunter.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-071112sox,1,5296049.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines
Old news. We've known that since the season ended.

munchman33
11-12-2007, 10:16 PM
My conclusion is that you are the first baseball fan I have seen to call an arbitration eligible year as a "contract year."

Contract year = season before FREE AGENCY.

Has Joe Crede been in a contract year every year since 2003?

It's the first season a team can't simply "tender" an offer. There is pressure to sign the player long term, as they will be on the hook for a big pay day if you produce. Aaron did, for the first time. He then went on to not produce. For two years. And then produce in the third year since. Lo and behold, a contract year.

Lillian
11-13-2007, 04:25 AM
Mark Gonzalez just put up an article about Hunter, stating the Sox are preparing to "pour their financial resources" into signing Hunter.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-071112sox,1,5296049.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

The article is incorrect on the age difference between Hunter and Rowand.
It is 2 years and one month, not 1 year, as stated. That's significant when you're talking about five and six year deals.

Another interesting factor is the comparative split stats between the two.
Rowand had a remarkably consistent year vs. both right handers and left handers. Hunter was much better vs. lefties than righties.

I like Aaron's better OBP and, as I've said before, he always hit well whenever the Sox put him in the 2 hole. We could use that, as we still don't have either a leadoff, or a 2 hole hitter yet.

If the money is significantly different between the two deals, I'd prefer that they went with Aaron, especially if they both get at least 5 years. Doesn't 5 years at $15 million per year, or more, seem like a bad deal, unless they were desperate, which they're not, as Rowand could be had for less?

Sargeant79
11-13-2007, 08:35 AM
The interesting thing in this article is the speculation concerning what it would take to sign Rowand. If 4 years at $11 million per year is the price tag, I think this might be the better long-term move. As I've said in other threads, that $15 million annual salary is probably not going to be looking very good in years 4 and 5 of Hunter's contract.

jabrch
11-13-2007, 09:46 AM
The interesting thing in this article is the speculation concerning what it would take to sign Rowand. If 4 years at $11 million per year is the price tag, I think this might be the better long-term move.

Except that Rowand has already asked Philly for 6/84...

4/44 would require he be willing to take a major discount to come back to Chicago

DumpJerry
11-13-2007, 09:47 AM
Except that Rowand has already asked Philly for 6/84...

4/44 would require he be willing to take a major discount to come back to Chicago
Which was rightfully rejected.

jabrch
11-13-2007, 10:26 AM
Which was rightfully rejected.

Agreed - Just not sure that 4/44 is where he ends up.

What do you think?

DumpJerry
11-13-2007, 10:33 AM
Agreed - Just not sure that 4/44 is where he ends up.

What do you think?
I think he needs to wait for Hunter to sign. Right now, he is worth less than Hunter. Once Hunter signs, Rowand's price goes up because the Main Guy is off the market.

Sockinchisox
11-13-2007, 10:47 AM
Speaking of Rowand, Keith Law strikes again.

He compares Rowand's year to Gary Matthews Jr's of 06, he says Rowand "is an average 4th OF thats about to be paid like an above average-starter". He says Rowand is an average CF, with an average arm, that can make the hard plays but not the easy ones.

This, from his 50 top FA column, Rowand came in at #14 and Hunter was #12.

He says he thinks Hunter has 3 or 4 good years left in him, and that when it comes down to it, Hunter is an average CF that likes to rob HR, with above average power but poor patience.

Edit: Sorry, didn't see this posted in Talking Baseball.

CHIsoxNation
11-13-2007, 03:00 PM
Sounds like the Phillies want to shore up their starting pitching issues first before offering a huge deal to Rowand.

Despite hope from both sides of a continuing marriage, the Phillies may not be able to play in Rowand's arena. The reported number -- a request for six years and $84 million -- lingers, and that will be tough for a Philadelphia budget that is expected to be around $100 million.

"With all due respect to Aaron Rowand, our priority continues to be pitching, and we still have the flexibility to do some things," Amaro said. "A lot of it depends on who you acquire. We're looking into a couple of different ways of filling those needs if we don't have Aaron Rowand. As far as we're concerned, Victorino or Werth are viable center-field options. They both have a lot of versatility."

Sounds like Kenny already gave him a call as well...

The Texas Rangers, Washington Nationals, Chicago White Sox, St. Louis Cardinals and San Diego Padres have contacted him.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071113&content_id=2299364&vkey=news_phi&fext=.jsp&c_id=phi&partnered=rss_phi

SBSoxFan
11-13-2007, 03:54 PM
If I'm signing Hunter it's because of his defense. He sounds as if defense is the most important thing to him which is good for me. Considering a lot of our pitchers tend to give up homeruns, it'll be good to have Torii rob a few of those. He's also made great clutch plays in the outfield, how could anyone forget that sensational catch he made on Uribe this season in the dome with the bases loaded and 2 outs.

My take on it is he enjoys playing defense, and he enjoys robbing hitters of homeruns. How is that not about winning?

Fair enough. My take is that he enjoys being on ESPN, and knows that robbing home runs is a great way to do it.

During the season, when there was speculation about Hunter becoming a free agent, I seem to recall a fair number of posters who suggested that Hunter also lets a number of balls fall in front of him because of how deep he plays. I don't know where those people went. :D:

It's almost 5 pm in the East on the first day FA contracts can be offered. It's been pretty quiet considering the Sox said Hunter was a guy they would "pour their financial resources into signing."

oeo
11-13-2007, 03:59 PM
It's almost 5 pm in the East on the first day FA contracts can be offered. It's been pretty quiet considering the Sox said Hunter was a guy they would "pour their financial resources into signing."

First of all, the Sox never said that. Mark Gonzalez said they were expected to do that. In other words, that sentence meant nothing; it was just speculation.

Second, Hunter probably won't be signed until at least the winter meetings. The big free agents do not sign this early.

SBSoxFan
11-13-2007, 04:03 PM
First of all, the Sox never said that. Mark Gonzalez said they were expected to do that. In other words, that sentence meant nothing; it was just speculation.

Second, Hunter probably won't be signed until at least the winter meetings. The big free agents do not sign this early.

If he's target #1 wouldn't the Sox make an offer to him immediately? It's very possible they have. If they haven't then you're first sentence is absolutely correct. If Hunter is sitting on it until December, can the Sox afford to wait? I don't think so.

Sockinchisox
11-13-2007, 04:03 PM
It would be a bad business decision to sign on the 1st day, it's better to get 4 or 5 offers and weigh them over a couple weeks period.

spawn
11-13-2007, 04:03 PM
It's almost 5 pm in the East on the first day FA contracts can be offered. It's been pretty quiet considering the Sox said Hunter was a guy they would "pour their financial resources into signing."
Considering Torii has stated he's not going to rush into signing a contract, and so far he's only met with the White Sox, I'm not surprised he hasn't signedwith anyone yet. It's only been 17 hrs. since the signing period began. The only one who has signed is Posada, and that was to go back to his old team.

spiffie
11-13-2007, 04:05 PM
The only way someone signs right now is if they get overwhelmed by an offer. If the Sox came to Hunter and said "7 yrs/140 million, take it or leave it" he'd be a White Sox player now...but that would be a bad idea, so its good we've heard nothing.

DumpJerry
11-13-2007, 04:09 PM
I heard on ESPN1000 the Sox are looking at offering 5 years, 12-15MM per year.

oeo
11-13-2007, 04:12 PM
If he's target #1 wouldn't the Sox make an offer to him immediately? It's very possible they have. If they haven't then you're first sentence is absolutely correct. If Hunter is sitting on it until December, can the Sox afford to wait? I don't think so.

Why can't they? Do they need a centerfielder for November? :?:

SBSoxFan
11-13-2007, 04:26 PM
Why can't they? Do they need a centerfielder for November? :?:

I guess that depends on whether you expect everything to line up in December. Perhaps it's better to start earlier. I don't know, maybe I'm just panicking because Detroit's been moving so fast. Although, $7M for Doug Jones may mean fast doesn't equal good/smart!

spiffie
11-13-2007, 04:30 PM
Why can't they? Do they need a centerfielder for November? :?:
Well, one of the reasons lots of people said the Sox shouldn't go after A-Rod was because it is likely to take a while for his process to shake out, and if the Sox didn't get him they'd be shut out of other guys they liked. With the money being bandied about for Hunter, I'd say he too kind of holds the Sox hostage (for lack of a better term) until he makes his decision, so if the process becomes extended it could be an issue for them.

upperdeckusc
11-13-2007, 04:32 PM
I heard on ESPN1000 the Sox are looking at offering 5 years, 12-15MM per year.

12-15 mil / yr is a pretty wide range. i wonder if they are contemplating giving him 2 types of offers. a 3 yrs at 15-16 mil per, and a 5 yr deal at 12-13 per. i'd prefer the 3 yr deal. and before anyone says he declined a 3 yr deal from minny, maybe he realizes he wont win there and wants to play for a winner and just plain and simple wants out. it is pretty hard tho to see him take a contract offer that was for 12 mil / yr unless this offseason is the time for MARKET CORRECTION haha

oeo
11-13-2007, 04:38 PM
I guess that depends on whether you expect everything to line up in December.

No, that's why you have backup plans. I'm sure Kenny has more than one plan for CF. He's not going to get Hunter (or Rowand) this early unless he overpays, so he needs to prepare for the worst (not signing either one). Not an easy job, but that's why he's paid the big bucks.

12-15 mil / yr is a pretty wide range. i wonder if they are contemplating giving him 2 types of offers. a 3 yrs at 15-16 mil per, and a 5 yr deal at 12-13 per. i'd prefer the 3 yr deal. and before anyone says he declined a 3 yr deal from minny, maybe he realizes he wont win there and wants to play for a winner and just plain and simple wants out. it is pretty hard tho to see him take a contract offer that was for 12 mil / yr unless this offseason is the time for MARKET CORRECTION haha

I doubt either of those situations happen. He wants at least 5 years, so maybe they can get him to settle for $14 million, but it will likely cost $15+ million.

Sockinchisox
11-13-2007, 04:47 PM
Scott Gregor doesn't think we have the funds to sign Hunter and has us as a 15-1 odds we sign him.

I think he's on something when Kenny has already said he has enough money to sign a top tier FA.

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=76262&src=162

Foulke You
11-13-2007, 05:29 PM
It's almost 5 pm in the East on the first day FA contracts can be offered. It's been pretty quiet considering the Sox said Hunter was a guy they would "pour their financial resources into signing."
Patience grasshopper. High profile free agents rarely sign on the first day. For example, Soriano didn't sign with the Cubs until 7 days after the free agent period started. Give Hunter and Rowand time to weigh their choices. My gut tells me that both want to play here but the money and years are going to have to be competitive or they'll be playing elsewhere.

upperdeckusc
11-13-2007, 05:44 PM
Scott Gregor doesn't think we have the funds to sign Hunter and has us as a 15-1 odds we sign him.

I think he's on something when Kenny has already said he has enough money to sign a top tier FA.

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=76262&src=162

ya i think i saw an interview where he said there is not a player out there that he will not go after if he truly believes he will help the team. arod will of course help the team, but hurt it as well because he would lock up all of our money so we cant improve other areas. i'd love for us to sign hunter to a 4 yr deal, a veteral reliever like linebrink/dotel to 3 yr deals, and trade for a leadoff hitters. that way we can have owens in LF batting 9th since uribe will be out of the lineup.

Sockinchisox
11-13-2007, 09:10 PM
The Rangers are apparently ready to begin their "all-out" pursuit of Hunter.
And considering how they just got rid of the extra money they were giving the Yankees for A-Rod they might offer more money then us.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071113&content_id=2299889&vkey=hotstove2007&fext=.jsp

KyWhiSoxFan
11-13-2007, 09:23 PM
The Rangers are apparently ready to begin their "all-out" pursuit of Hunter.
And considering how they just got rid of the extra money they were giving the Yankees for A-Rod they might offer more money then us.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071113&content_id=2299889&vkey=hotstove2007&fext=.jsp

If Hunter goes to a place like Texas, it would strictly be for the money. Texas has no proven ability as a franchise to get into the playoffs. I doubt Hunter would go to Texas, but I've been wrong before.

FJA
11-13-2007, 09:28 PM
If Hunter goes to a place like Texas, it would strictly be for the money. Texas has no proven ability as a franchise to get into the playoffs. I doubt Hunter would go to Texas, but I've been wrong before.

Hunter lives near The Ballpark at Arlington.

http://www.startribune.com/blogs/sinker/?p=199

While it would seem like a stretch for the Rangers to be able to sign Hunter, donít wager against it.


He certainly hasnít.


ďI almost bet you that the Texas Rangers have a better chance than anybody,Ē he said.

JermaineDye05
11-13-2007, 09:44 PM
If Hunter goes to a place like Texas, it would strictly be for the money. Texas has no proven ability as a franchise to get into the playoffs. I doubt Hunter would go to Texas, but I've been wrong before.

Yeah, I don't think the wall is too good for robbing homers. The only one I can remember is the Matthews one.

AWhiteSoxinNJ
11-13-2007, 09:54 PM
He had dinner with the Texas brass tonight.

JermaineDye05
11-13-2007, 09:55 PM
He had dinner with the Texas brass tonight.

Doesn't surprise me. I didn't think the WS would be the only ones Torii was going to meet with.

Sockinchisox
11-13-2007, 10:02 PM
At least we know we stand a fighting chance of signing him, with JD being a good friend and him loving The Cell and Chicago. But I would not be suprised for one second to see him sign elsewhere, I would be dissappointed however ha.

But if Hunter does sign elsewhere it is vital we sign Rowand.

WhiteSox5187
11-13-2007, 10:09 PM
At least we know we stand a fighting chance of signing him, with JD being a good friend and him loving The Cell and Chicago. But I would not be suprised for one second to see him sign elsewhere, I would be dissappointed however ha.

But if Hunter does sign elsewhere it is vital we sign Rowand.
I agree, ideally Hunter is option one, Rowand is option two...this team isn't going to win with Jerry Owens in CF.

soxfanreggie
11-13-2007, 10:43 PM
If he can live near there and play in Minnesota, it sure isn't going to be a deal breaker/maker. It may be a factor he considers, but I don't think living close to the park will help out that much.

WhiteSox5187
11-13-2007, 10:48 PM
If he can live near there and play in Minnesota, it sure isn't going to be a deal breaker/maker. It may be a factor he considers, but I don't think living close to the park will help out that much.
The biggest factor is in his descion will be money...as it is with EVERY free agent.

Sockinchisox
11-13-2007, 11:44 PM
New Hunter article again. Nothing really new, just team sources saying if they sign Hunter they want to sign him ASAP so "it can set up a few other things".

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-071113soxbits,1,4199210.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

I really need to get to bed but this is what I get for having too much coffee.

oeo
11-14-2007, 12:23 AM
Hunter lives near The Ballpark at Arlington.

http://www.startribune.com/blogs/sinker/?p=199

Hunter's comments mean nothing. He's saying the same damn thing about every team. Of course it's all about the $$$, why else would he be sending out bull**** signals to every team? The guy's an ass, and always will be (I will still feel that way even if he comes to the Sox).

Foulke You
11-14-2007, 12:38 AM
Not sure if these quotes have been posted. (I apologize if they have but this is a really long thread :wink:)

Hunter on whether the fence and field quality play into his decision:

"That's 100 percent accurate," Hunter said. "Listen to those words and that will tell you where I might be ending up. I have to visit fields where I've never played and see if the grass runs true. I love defense so much that if the field is not right, I'm not taking it."

Hunter on US Cellular Field and Chicago:

"I could hit 35 home runs at U.S. Cellular, and I could steal about 20," said Hunter with a laugh. "I love that wall. I have a lot of family and friends in Chicago. It has always been fun for me there. If it wasn't fun, I wouldn't be talking to Kenny Williams on Sunday."

The link to the whole article is here:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071108&content_id=2295904&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

esbrechtel
11-14-2007, 12:43 AM
I agree, ideally Hunter is option one, Rowand is option two...this team isn't going to win with Jerry Owens in CF.

I agree 100 percent...we have seen what crappy D in CF can do to a good team ALA 2006...

santo=dorf
11-14-2007, 05:33 AM
How exactly does US Cellular Field allow for Hunter to steal 20 bases here? Is the distance from first to second only 75 feet? As I previously mentioned, he has only stole 30 bases combined over the previous 2 years, and 20 of those were at home.

This guy is so full of hot air it's not even funny. Remember when he said how great it would be to play in SF in the shadows of Willie Mays when he was there for the ASG?

Evman5
11-14-2007, 06:48 AM
How exactly does US Cellular Field allow for Hunter to steal 20 bases here? Is the distance from first to second only 75 feet? As I previously mentioned, he has only stole 30 bases combined over the previous 2 years, and 20 of those were at home.

This guy is so full of hot air it's not even funny. Remember when he said how great it would be to play in SF in the shadows of Willie Mays when he was there for the ASG?


I think when he said "steal 20" he was talking about robbing 20 homers not stealing 20 bases.

SoxxoS
11-14-2007, 07:22 AM
The biggest factor is in his descion will be money...as it is with EVERY free agent.

True in most situations, but...

:burly

voodoochile
11-14-2007, 08:10 AM
True in most situations, but...

:burly

How much of a discount did Mark actually take? I don't live in Chicago, so I don't know if he is getting any endorsement money, but it wouldn't shock me. He also may have better business contacts or other financial reasons for staying beyond his pay for being a baseball player. Same can be said for Paulie who supposedly turned down more money from the Angels. Earning more in a given market isn't always about the contract the player signed...

The Dude
11-14-2007, 08:10 AM
How exactly does US Cellular Field allow for Hunter to steal 20 bases here? Is the distance from first to second only 75 feet? As I previously mentioned, he has only stole 30 bases combined over the previous 2 years, and 20 of those were at home.

This guy is so full of hot air it's not even funny. Remember when he said how great it would be to play in SF in the shadows of Willie Mays when he was there for the ASG?

He was talking about that in the same sentence as hitting HRs so he obviously is talking about the patented Torii brings a HR back refering to how much he loves the wall. Hence the words, "I could steal about 20."

Keep the hot air flowing!:tongue:

ma-gaga
11-14-2007, 08:39 AM
Torii:
I would love to play for [insert team here].
I think that [insert manager] is the best manager in the game.
I love playing in [insert city here]. Those fans are the greatest!!!

:cool: Don't fall for it...

It's going to be about the money. 5 yrs - $75m; and that's a "minimum" type number, he might see something like 5 - 80 if he can get a couple of the big boy teams interested.

oeo
11-14-2007, 08:45 AM
Torii:
I would love to play for [insert team here].
I think that [insert manager] is the best manager in the game.
I love playing in [insert city here]. Those fans are the greatest!!!

I really can't believe that many of the people here fell for the fan comment, because he's had some not-so-nice things to say about White Sox fans in the past. Or maybe I can...

spawn
11-14-2007, 08:51 AM
I really can't believe that many of the people here fell for the fan comment, because he's had some not-so-nice things to say about White Sox fans in the past. Or maybe I can...
I can't believe anyone falls for any athlete saynig he loves this or that teams fans. And I personally couldn't care less about what he said about Sox fans in the past. If he signs here and brings his gold glove defense and helps the Sox win, he'll be ok in my book.

oeo
11-14-2007, 08:53 AM
I can't believe anyone falls for any athlete saynig he loves this or that teams fans. And I personally couldn't care less about what he said about Sox fans in the past. If he signs here and brings his gold glove defense and helps the Sox win, he'll be ok in my book.

Hunter really is taking it to another level, though.

And I'm not going to complain about his on-the-field play, but something about the guy has always pissed me off. He's a jerk. It's not even the same feelings I had toward AJ before he came here.

spawn
11-14-2007, 08:59 AM
Hunter really is taking it to another level, though.

And I'm not going to complain about his on-the-field play, but something about the guy has always pissed me off. He's a jerk. It's not even the same feelings I had toward AJ before he came here.
Well, if he signs here, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. He's never pissed me off. I've always admired how he plays the game. I don't know the guy personally, so I have no reason to dislike him personally.

oeo
11-14-2007, 09:22 AM
Well, if he signs here, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. He's never pissed me off. I've always admired how he plays the game. I don't know the guy personally, so I have no reason to dislike him personally.

It's his comments and his attitude off the field that gets to me, not what he does on the field. I have no problem with hard-nosed baseball (as long as it doesn't include cheap shots, like on Jamie Burke), but this guy has always come off as an ass talking to the media.

Law11
11-14-2007, 09:29 AM
I used to dislike the guy but saw some off the field stuff he does for kids and how personable he really is with the little ones that made me see him in a different light.

D. TODD
11-14-2007, 09:37 AM
It's his comments and his attitude off the field that gets to me, not what he does on the field. I have no problem with hard-nosed baseball (as long as it doesn't include cheap shots, like on Jamie Burke), but this guy has always come off as an ass talking to the media. Torii is well respected and liked by his teammates, and fellow players across the league, unlike AJ. I welcomed AJ and would welcome Torii with open arms. The Burke play was not a cheap shot in my opinion. When he snapped on the **** talking fans at US Cellular I have no problem with that treatment of drunken loud mouths.

spawn
11-14-2007, 09:44 AM
Torii is well respected and liked by his teammates, and fellow players across the league, unlike AJ. I welcomed AJ and would welcome Torii with open arms. The Burke play was not a cheap shot in my opinion. When he snapped on the **** talking fans at US Cellular I have no problem with that treatment of drunken loud mouths.
I agree 100%. I still can't believe there are fans that still believe the hit on Jamie Burke was a cheap shot. If that was a cheap shot, then the hit AJ laid on Barrett was cheap as well.

oeo
11-14-2007, 09:51 AM
Torii is well respected and liked by his teammates, and fellow players across the league, unlike AJ. I welcomed AJ and would welcome Torii with open arms. The Burke play was not a cheap shot in my opinion. When he snapped on the **** talking fans at US Cellular I have no problem with that treatment of drunken loud mouths.

I agree 100%. I still can't believe there are fans that still believe the hit on Jamie Burke was a cheap shot. If that was a cheap shot, then the hit AJ laid on Barrett was cheap as well.

It was a cheap shot.

I don't want to get into this argument, but spawn, the two collisions you're comparing are not the same, at all. Michael Barret was blocking the plate, without the ball. There was only one way to the plate.

Jamie Burke was standing a few steps in front of the plate (towards the pitcher's mound). Torii went out of his way to run him over when he didn't even have the ball. Burke was not blocking the plate and Hunter blind-sided him; it was cheap.

spawn
11-14-2007, 09:59 AM
It was a cheap shot.

I don't want to get into this argument, but spawn, the two collisions you're comparing are not the same, at all. Michael Barret was blocking the plate, without the ball. There was only one way to the plate.

Jamie Burke was standing a few steps in front of the plate (towards the pitcher's mound). Torii went out of his way to run him over when he didn't even have the ball. Burke was not blocking the plate and Hunter blind-sided him; it was cheap.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

oeo
11-14-2007, 10:05 AM
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Explain to me how they're the same? Because they're collisions? I wouldn't have a problem if Burke was blocking the plate, and Hunter plowed over him. That's part of the game. Running over a guy that's just standing there waiting for the ball, when you can easily slide into home plate is not cool.

Take a look back at some of the comments after that game. (http://www.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20040727&content_id=811772&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws)

spawn
11-14-2007, 10:11 AM
Explain to me how they're the same? Because they're collisions? I wouldn't have a problem if Burke was blocking the plate, and Hunter plowed over him. That's part of the game. Running over a guy that's just standing there waiting for the ball, when you can easily slide into home plate is not cool.

Take a look back at some of the comments after that game. (http://www.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20040727&content_id=811772&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws)
Look, you said you don't want to get into an argument about it. I said we should agree to disagree. You're not going to convince me it was a dirty play anymore than I'll convince you it wasn't.

jabrch
11-14-2007, 10:14 AM
I agree 100%. I still can't believe there are fans that still believe the hit on Jamie Burke was a cheap shot. If that was a cheap shot, then the hit AJ laid on Barrett was cheap as well.

You really don't see a difference between a Catcher on the 1B side of Homoe, taking a throw, and getting pounded is the same as a catcher on the 3B side, blocking the plate, getting hit?

You can't be serious...

spawn
11-14-2007, 10:19 AM
You really don't see a difference between a Catcher on the 1B side of Homoe, taking a throw, and getting pounded is the same as a catcher on the 3B side, blocking the plate, getting hit?

You can't be serious...
Um, yes. I am serious. I don't care what side of the plate the catcher is on. If he's awaiting a throw to the plate to tag a baseunner out, he's fair game. Jamie Burke didn't think it was a cheap shot, and he was the one on the receiving end of it.

oeo
11-14-2007, 10:36 AM
Look, you said you don't want to get into an argument about it. I said we should agree to disagree. You're not going to convince me it was a dirty play anymore than I'll convince you it wasn't.

I changed my mind. :wink:

Without an argument from your side, it makes you sound like you don't think it's a cheap shot because he could be coming to Chicago. Deep down, I think you know it was dirty, though. :smile:

Of course you're not going to convince me, you're not even trying. You're just agreeing to disagree.

Um, yes. I am serious. I don't care what side of the plate the catcher is on. If he's awaiting a throw to the plate to tag a baseunner out, he's fair game. Jamie Burke didn't think it was a cheap shot, and he was the one on the receiving end of it.

Going out of your way to potentially hurt someone, isn't wrong in your eyes? I see it as an unwritten rule, that you don't just plow over a catcher because he's in the vicinity. I mean, where's he supposed to be, centerfield? If it was 'fair game' in players' eyes to blindside a catcher, you would see a couple of homeplate collisions every game.

I can guarantee you that Torii would have never pulled that stunt if he had to sit behind homeplate the following half inning.

jabrch
11-14-2007, 10:37 AM
If he's awaiting a throw to the plate to tag a baseunner out, he's fair game.

Going out of the line of the base to harm another player is not fair game.

FedEx227
11-14-2007, 10:39 AM
Um, yes. I am serious. I don't care what side of the plate the catcher is on. If he's awaiting a throw to the plate to tag a baseunner out, he's fair game. Jamie Burke didn't think it was a cheap shot, and he was the one on the receiving end of it.

...Wow. And if Hunter doesn't sign with us does it suddenly become a cheap-shot again?

It was cheap, plain and simple. I don't care who you're a fan of there is no way you can compare a guy with the ball blocking the plate to a guy standing on the first base side without the ball.

spawn
11-14-2007, 10:40 AM
...Wow. And if Hunter doesn't sign with us does it suddenly become a cheap-shot again?

When have I said it was a cheap shot?

FedEx227
11-14-2007, 10:42 AM
When have I said it was a cheap shot?

Never but you clearly have blinders on if you in any way believe this wasn't a cheap shot. I hope we get Hunter and I've always liked him as a player but that was a bull**** move 4 years ago and it still is.

There is absolutely no way anybody who's watched baseball or played baseball can advocate the move he made.

hi im skot
11-14-2007, 10:47 AM
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f322/fugnutz/Smilies/popcorn.gif

spawn
11-14-2007, 10:50 AM
Never but you clearly have blinders on if you in any way believe this wasn't a cheap shot.

There is absolutely no way anybody who's watched baseball or played baseball can advocate the move he made.
That's your opinion. There are other fans who share my opinion as well.

oeo
11-14-2007, 10:52 AM
When have I said it was a cheap shot?

Well, you haven't been a member long enough to back and check, but I highly doubt that you were not fuming after that play. Everyone here was, and I'm sure every Sox fan in existence was.

I remember being pissed, and I remember going to the game next day hoping Torii would get his.

D. TODD
11-14-2007, 10:52 AM
Never but you clearly have blinders on if you in any way believe this wasn't a cheap shot. I hope we get Hunter and I've always liked him as a player but that was a bull**** move 4 years ago and it still is.

There is absolutely no way anybody who's watched baseball or played baseball can advocate the move he made. The play could have been avoided but it was not a cheap shot, and plenty of baseball people agreed right after it happened. The fine happy league office which suspends guys or fines them for anything near a play that is out of line and could injure another player did not have a problem with this play either.

It is funny how Pete Rose is praised as "Charlie Hustle" status for taking out Ray Fosse in a all-star game, but Torii Hunter is public enemy #1 for taking out Burke in a division game. He was preparing to receive the throw and Hunter blew him up, no sweep tagging is gonna happen then. I agree how it worked out a slide would have sufficed, but it was a bang bang decision that he made that was not a cheap shot.

spiffie
11-14-2007, 10:53 AM
That's your opinion. There are other fans who share my opinion as well.
Opinions are like *******s. Mine are the only ones that aren't full of ****. :D:

spawn
11-14-2007, 10:54 AM
Without an argument from your side, it makes you sound like you don't think it's a cheap shot because he could be coming to Chicago. Deep down, I think you know it was dirty, though. :smile:

Of course you're not going to convince me, you're not even trying. You're just agreeing to disagree.

1. I've always felt that way, so there is no hidden agenda coming from me.

2. No, deep down, I don't think it was dirty.

3. I'm not trying becasue i think it's ridiculous to argue about a play that happened 4 years ago. Obviously you dislike hunter becasue of that play, and you can't seem to let go of your hatred towards him. i get it. i just don't agree with you. :wink:

spawn
11-14-2007, 10:56 AM
Well, you haven't been a member long enough to back and check, but I highly doubt that you were not fuming after that play. Everyone here was, and I'm sure every Sox fan in existence was.
Of course I was fuming when it happened, only because I hate the Twins. Doesn't mean I thought it was a cheap shot.

SBSoxFan
11-14-2007, 10:57 AM
The play could have been avoided but it was not a cheap shot, and plenty of baseball people agreed right after it happened. The fine happy league office which suspends guys or fines them for anything near a play that is out of line and could injure another player did not have a problem with this play either.

It is funny how Pete Rose is praised as "Charlie Hustle" status for taking out Ray Fosse in a all-star game, but Torii Hunter is public enemy #1 for taking out Burke in a division game. He was preparing to receive the throw and Hunter blew him up, no sweep tagging is gonna happen then. I agree how it worked out a slide would have sufficed, but it was a bang bang decision that he made that was not a cheap shot.

I don't think they would fine people for a play like that. If that were the case, they'd have to fine every baserunner who is called out on a double play for interference at second base. Which, I think, they don't do.

On your second point, again, completely different scenario. Fosse was blocking the plate, and, I think, the ball arrived about the same time as Rose. This was very similar to the AJ/Barrett play. Not very similar to the Hunter/Burke play.

Gammons Peter
11-14-2007, 10:57 AM
I don't want him, please trade the farm away for Carl Crawford. The whole damn farm, I don't care. Gio, Broadway, Fields AND any other over-rated "can't miss" kid we have

jabrch
11-14-2007, 10:58 AM
It is funny how Pete Rose is praised as "Charlie Hustle" status for taking out Ray Fosse in a all-star game, but Torii Hunter is public enemy #1 for taking out Burke in a division game.

Fosse stood between Rose and the plate.

Burke was standing between several feet away from the path between Hunter and the plate.

That's a ridiculous comparison.

oeo
11-14-2007, 10:58 AM
3. I'm not trying becasue i think it's ridiculous to argue about a play that happened 4 years ago. Obviously you dislike hunter becasue of that play, and you can't seem to let go of your hatred towards him. i get it. i just don't agree with you. :wink:

No, I dislike him for other reasons, mostly. He's a borderline dirty player just like every other guy that comes out of that system.

I honestly don't really care about the play anymore, either, but it was still a cheap shot is the point I'm getting at. It is today, it was three years ago, and even if he signs with the Sox tomorrow, it will continue to be.

spiffie
11-14-2007, 11:06 AM
The play could have been avoided but it was not a cheap shot, and plenty of baseball people agreed right after it happened. The fine happy league office which suspends guys or fines them for anything near a play that is out of line and could injure another player did not have a problem with this play either.

It is funny how Pete Rose is praised as "Charlie Hustle" status for taking out Ray Fosse in a all-star game, but Torii Hunter is public enemy #1 for taking out Burke in a division game. He was preparing to receive the throw and Hunter blew him up, no sweep tagging is gonna happen then. I agree how it worked out a slide would have sufficed, but it was a bang bang decision that he made that was not a cheap shot.
The pitcher was still standing at that point and could have been a threat to tag him out. Hunter should have kicked his teeth out of his head to stop that from happening. All part of the game after all.

D. TODD
11-14-2007, 11:11 AM
I don't think they would fine people for a play like that. If that were the case, they'd have to fine every baserunner who is called out on a double play for interference at second base. Which, I think, they don't do.

On your second point, again, completely different scenario. Fosse was blocking the plate, and, I think, the ball arrived about the same time as Rose. This was very similar to the AJ/Barrett play. Not very similar to the Hunter/Burke play. They do not fine it because just like a double play scenario it is seen as part of the game and not a dirty play or a cheap shot.

The Rose play was very similar he was barreling home and locked on to the catcher who was preped for a throw form center instead of rightfield. Both had plenty of room to slide safely, but to come in as hard as they did they had to make the decision early thatgoing through the catcher was going to be their strategy. Good hard nose baseball for one, dirty cheap shot for the other. It sucked that it happened to my team, but when you take a step back and look at the play it happens fairly often. Bo Jackson & Ray Lankford come to mind as nearly killing catchers on throws from the right side of the field, and they were touted for the vicious blasts. Torii thought there was going to be a play and he had every reason to think so and he made a baseball decision to go through the catcher rather then hit the dirt and chance a slap tag possibly.

D. TODD
11-14-2007, 11:17 AM
The pitcher was still standing at that point and could have been a threat to tag him out. Hunter should have kicked his teeth out of his head to stop that from happening. All part of the game after all.
This is not slow pitch soft, you do not have to slide, and a bang bang decision for a perfectly legal play is not akin to a non baseball kick to the teeth. That is why one will draw a fine & suspension and Torii's play gets nothing.

spiffie
11-14-2007, 11:25 AM
This is not slow pitch soft, you do not have to slide, and a bang bang decision for a perfectly legal play is not akin to a non baseball kick to the teeth. That is why one will draw a fine & suspension and Torii's play gets nothing.
It has nothing to do with having to slide. What Hunter did though is akin to if a guy heading down the first base line decides to step over one step to the left and just barrel over the first baseman to stop him from making the catch. I was sitting about 20 rows off the field and basically straight down the third base line (if you extended the 3rd base line straight through home plate and into the seats, that's where I was) that night, and watched Hunter alter his path from a straight shot towards home base to a path that took him away from the plate solely for the purpose of crashing into an unsuspecting catcher. It didn't draw a fine or anything because it wasn't blatant enough that it couldn't be ignored, but it was unnecessary and cheap as hell. And sadly, effective, because the Sox pretty much curled up and died after that.

TomBradley72
11-14-2007, 11:34 AM
If you're pissed off at anyone re: Hunter's slide into Burke...be pissed at the White Sox for their wuss like response to the play. It might have been a dirty play...but was pretty much borderline. The lack of a White Sox response was not borderline...it was gutless. To label Hunter a "dirty player" based on that play is ridiculous.

Sockinchisox
11-14-2007, 12:06 PM
According to the Score, Kenny tried to "impress" Torii with videos of Thome and Ben Wallace to somehow show the passion of the city of Chicago or something.

They also mentioned that they're going to make a huge offer to him and that Hunter is meeting with the Royals next.

Edit: They were personal messages from Big Ben and Thome pleading for him to come to Chicago.

thedudeabides
11-14-2007, 12:19 PM
According to the Score, Kenny tried to "impress" Torii with videos of Thome and Ben Wallace to somehow show the passion of the city of Chicago or something.

They also mentioned that they're going to make a huge offer to him and that Hunter is meeting with the Royals next.

Edit: They were personal messages from Big Ben and Thome pleading for him to come to Chicago.

It looks like he met with the Rangers Monday night. Which was expected.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/111407dnsporanglede.fec71.html

D. TODD
11-14-2007, 12:37 PM
If you're pissed off at anyone re: Hunter's slide into Burke...be pissed at the White Sox for their wuss like response to the play. It might have been a dirty play...but was pretty much borderline. The lack of a White Sox response was not borderline...it was gutless. To label Hunter a "dirty player" based on that play is ridiculous. That is exactly right. It was a play that called for a response by the Sox in hard nosed no uncertain terms. Infamously C. Lee passed on an opportunity to lay down a Twin and it clearly set a mood for the remainder of the series, and to some extent the rest of the season.

SBSoxFan
11-14-2007, 12:39 PM
They do not fine it because just like a double play scenario it is seen as part of the game and not a dirty play or a cheap shot.

The Rose play was very similar he was barreling home and locked on to the catcher who was preped for a throw form center instead of rightfield. Both had plenty of room to slide safely, but to come in as hard as they did they had to make the decision early thatgoing through the catcher was going to be their strategy. Good hard nose baseball for one, dirty cheap shot for the other. It sucked that it happened to my team, but when you take a step back and look at the play it happens fairly often. Bo Jackson & Ray Lankford come to mind as nearly killing catchers on throws from the right side of the field, and they were touted for the vicious blasts. Torii thought there was going to be a play and he had every reason to think so and he made a baseball decision to go through the catcher rather then hit the dirt and chance a slap tag possibly.

So going out of the baseline to roll block a SS/2B is not a dirty play even if the player doesn't get fined for it?

I recall Hunter had the entire play in front of him, and I don't think Burke was "prepped" for a throw --- that's how safe Hunter was --- unlike the other two examples. However, my recollection may be cloudy.

It's mostly irrelevant. If he comes here I'll definitely be rooting for him.

DumpJerry
11-14-2007, 12:39 PM
According to the Score, Kenny tried to "impress" Torii with videos of Thome and Ben Wallace to somehow show the passion of the city of Chicago or something.

They also mentioned that they're going to make a huge offer to him and that Hunter is meeting with the Royals next.

Edit: They were personal messages from Big Ben and Thome pleading for him to come to Chicago.
Why didn't they use AJ and Dye?

Domeshot17
11-14-2007, 12:39 PM
I don't get worked up with meetings to be honest. It happens, everyone meets with everyone, sometimes its for for the free dinner and drinks, sometimes its to hear someone out.

I would be shocked if Hunter went to KC, but he is using them is my guess. KC has $$ to spend, as does Texas. Texas, in my opinion, is the front runner. They have a good not great team, with money to spend, need a CF, close to home, and play in a tough but open division. Now if we offer him a 5 year deal at 12 per, Texas goes 5 for 13.5 per and KC comes in at 5/15, he isn't going to go to KC, but he will be using that number to get chicago AND texas up there.

Hunter has done a great job of marketing himself all year with the "Oh I could love playin in Yankee pin stripes.....The Rangers have a better shot than ANYBODY....You know I love the city of Chicago and love coming here, it always felt like home...KC has a good up and coming franchise..." He basically has been pleading with everyone to come love him and make him an offer.

SBSoxFan
11-14-2007, 12:40 PM
That is exactly right. It was a play that called for a response by the Sox in hard nosed no uncertain terms. Infamously C. Lee passed on an opportunity to lay down a Twin and it clearly set a mood for the remainder of the series, and to some extent the rest of the season.

The Sox' reliever, whose name I've thankfully forgotten, helped a bit too.

Sockinchisox
11-14-2007, 12:40 PM
Why didn't they use AJ and Dye?

Who knows, I don't get why they used Ben, unless they're good friends or something.

Domeshot17
11-14-2007, 12:41 PM
Why didn't they use AJ and Dye?

He knows AJ and Dye. Everything AJ and Dye know and could tell him has probably been said. I am SURE those 2 have been texting and calling him and his wife, talking and joking about playing together etc.

Ben Wallace= The Super Star who left a long home to play for the enemy in the same confrence/division. That is Torri Hunter. A big name Free Agent who is coming to a bigger and better city with great fans and a great place to live and play. He relates so well to Ben (hopefully he earns more of his check then big ben but who knows)

Jim Thome= The Super Star dealt here, to finish his career here, who has fell in love with the city and can call it home.

Those are the guys who can hit the soft spot on Torri Hunter with some stuff he hasn't been told.

D. TODD
11-14-2007, 01:48 PM
So going out of the baseline to roll block a SS/2B is not a dirty play even if the player doesn't get fined for it?

No not at all. In fact I think it's just the opposite, it's what you are suppose to do. If you get called out for going too far so be it, but you go get a piece of that guy making the turn. Not dirty at all in my opinion.

Sockinchisox
11-14-2007, 03:42 PM
According to Dayn Perry, Hunter has set a deadline to sign before Dec. 1st so he can enjoy the holidays.

He mentions the Rangers offer will be substantial and he doesn't think we can afford Hunter w/o trading Contreras or Garland (IMO, thats bull), he also said the Royals are in the mix.

jabrch
11-14-2007, 03:51 PM
If you get called out for going too far so be it, but you go get a piece of that guy making the turn.

There is a major difference between getting a piece of someone and maiming them.

Domeshot17
11-14-2007, 03:53 PM
According to Dayn Perry, Hunter has set a deadline to sign before Dec. 1st so he can enjoy the holidays.

He mentions the Rangers offer will be substantial and he doesn't think we can afford Hunter w/o trading Contreras or Garland (IMO, thats bull), he also said the Royals are in the mix.

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