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View Full Version : What do you think of this Sox plan


Rockabilly
11-05-2007, 11:26 AM
http://www.southsidesox.com/story/2007/11/4/183449/526


I would love to have Furcal but don't want Burrell on the Sox

SBSoxFan
11-05-2007, 11:34 AM
I would have started in May. Back then (http://www.southsidesox.com/story/2007/6/1/0228/96500), I was banging the drum for Pods and Erstad to be released :rolleyes: There is absolutely no rational to DFA a guy less than 2 months into the season. Having said that, it seems he's included Erstad on his 2008 roster. :?:

I also think he can't spell exercise: excersize

TheVulture
11-05-2007, 11:35 AM
He lost me when he said he wouldn't have handed out a new contract to AJ. Uh, yeah, where are we going to get a better catcher exactly?

oeo
11-05-2007, 11:36 AM
http://www.southsidesox.com/story/2007/11/4/183449/526


I would love to have Furcal but don't want Burrell on the Sox

I think it's the overall plan that you have to look at. This is what the Red Sox did a couple of years ago. They lost a lot of guys in free agency after their title, but used those compensation picks to rebuild their farm system, and it's paying off now.

We've got to do something to fix the minor league system, and if that means sitting through a year of Pat Burrell, fine.

jabrch
11-05-2007, 11:39 AM
He lost me when he said he wouldn't have handed out a new contract to AJ. Uh, yeah, where are we going to get a better catcher exactly?


That site is pretty worthless. It seems like it is a half dozen guys all repeating the same thing every day. We get it - you want guys who have higher OBP and higher SLG%, and who play better defense. Thanks folks - brilliant. We all want that. It's good to want things.

itsnotrequired
11-05-2007, 11:42 AM
I think it's the overall plan that you have to look at. This is what the Red Sox did a couple of years ago. They lost a lot of guys in free agency after their title, but used those compensation picks to rebuild their farm system, and it's paying off now.

We've got to do something to fix the minor league system, and if that means sitting through a year of Pat Burrell, fine.

The Red Sox made out like bandits in the 2005 draft. They got SIX of the first 57 selections in the draft. As a comparison, the White Sox had just ONE selection out of the first 94 spots (they had the 95th). That's more than three complete rounds (by pick totals) and only one pick.

PorkChopExpress
11-05-2007, 11:42 AM
:rolleyes: There is absolutely no rational to DFA a guy less than 2 months into the season. Having said that, it seems he's included Erstad on his 2008 roster. :?:

I also think he can't spell exercise:

I think the Erstad number is a buyout cost.

Craig Grebeck
11-05-2007, 11:51 AM
I will gladly "sit through" a season of .900 OPS from our LF. Those moves would certainly be upgrades.

SBSoxFan
11-05-2007, 11:53 AM
I think the Erstad number is a buyout cost.

Oh. Thanks.

oeo
11-05-2007, 12:10 PM
I will gladly "sit through" a season of .900 OPS from our LF. Those moves would certainly be upgrades.

I said 'sit through' because we're supposed to be getting away from the 'homerun or nothing' mentality. We're supposed to be getting younger and bringing in some speed...Burrell doesn't do that. But if we 'sit through' a year of him, we can improve the future of the franchise.

roadrunner
11-05-2007, 12:30 PM
That site is pretty worthless. It seems like it is a half dozen guys all repeating the same thing every day. We get it - you want guys who have higher OBP and higher SLG%, and who play better defense. Thanks folks - brilliant. We all want that. It's good to want things.

Actually it seems like a well thought out farsighted plan to get some much needed young talent on the team. It makes much more sense since than the typical dumbass plan of "let's go sign the most expensive free agents".
The idea of acquiring players that could lead to drafts picks is a good one. It makes way more sense than committing large chunks of budget and losing draft picks just for the privilege of overpaying the flavor of the offseason (whether it's Alfonso Soriano or Tori Hunter).

Hitmen77
11-05-2007, 01:11 PM
The Red Sox made out like bandits in the 2005 draft. They got SIX of the first 57 selections in the draft. As a comparison, the White Sox had just ONE selection out of the first 94 spots (they had the 95th). That's more than three complete rounds (by pick totals) and only one pick.

Who were the Type A free agents that Boston lost after '04 that netted them that many draft picks?

UserNameBlank
11-05-2007, 01:18 PM
I read that thing and the whole plan is way too risky and pretty much idiotic. He's banking on Rafael Furcal and Pat Burrell establishing themselves as Type A free agents after '08 and the Sox getting draft pick rewards for that. The only problem though, and it's a huge problem, is that both of those guys are making a TON of money. In order to get a draft pick you have to offer arbitration, the player has to deny it, and then you get the pick. This guy is talking about bringing two players over from the NL, who will certainly have to adjust to AL pitching, and then acting as if things will work out. Well, even if the Sox picked up both of those guys and they had terrific career years, who is to say that any team is going to offer them contracts larger than the ones they currently have? And if they don't look to make as much money, why would those players deny arbitration? It's just a dumb move to make.

The best offseason plan I can think of is this:

1. Try to trade Crede to the Angels for Ervin Santana. There was rumored interest before. Santana needs a change of scenery. LAA needs a third baseman. Both guys are coming off the worst years of their careers, and if the Sox need to throw in a prospect of reliever or something to get it done, then do that. But both have upside and the deal could work for both teams. LAA could spend the money and deal with Borass meanwhile the Sox can see if Ervin can get back to the pitcher he was.

2. Start Fields at 3B, Richar at 2B, and Owens in LF. Let's see how these kids develop. Put one of Anderson or Sweeney in CF and see what happens. The veteran CF options out there provide minimal if any defensive improvement and the offensive improvements they would provide would not be worth their pricetags. The Sox keep going on and on about CF's. Well, CF is a defensive position. When you have two young CF's ready to go, spend the money on offense and pitching if you're going to spend it.

3. Dump Uribe, dump Andy Gonzalez, dump Cintron, dump Podsednik. Find a young SS somewhere who can play D and handle the bat and then have him start. Pick up a Wilson Valdez or something to stick on the bench.

4. Trade Contreras for the best available package. If some team will assume the contract for a role player or something, just do it. Get rid of the salary.

5. Extend Garland with the idea of trading him midseason or next year when he has more value. If he demands a full NTC then look to trade him for youth.

6. Heavily, heavily shop Javier Vazquez. Some of the names rumored to be available, like Kazmir, Willis, Bedard, Santana, etc. are sexier but their costs will probably lead to a bunch of talk and little action. Santana is probably the most likely to be moved, but the Twins have let their stars play out their contracts before. The new GM in Minnesota makes things interesting though, and maybe the switch was made after this year because Ryan didn't want to do the housecleaning himself? Whatever the case, Santana might not go anywhere. Javy should if the right offer comes along.

7. Start Floyd in the rotation. Depending on how many slots are available, maybe even have Danks start the year in Charlotte. Floyd needs to prove his worth next year because he's out of options.

8. Hang on to Thornton and MacDougal, and probably Aardsma too. See if they can rebound, because if they can, everyone needs bullpen help midseason and some teams can make out like bandits because of it. The Eric Gagne trade was great for Texas, for example. And while none of our relievers sans Jenks have that kind of name, a good year could net the Sox a nice package of maybe a young future #3 starter and a decent prospect or something. At least this adds value to the organization.

The Sox can do a few things next year if some guys rebound. JD, if he gets back to somewhere between his '05 and '06 numbers, should be traded. If the Sox hold onto Contreras and he starts off well, he should be traded too. Pretty much any bullpen arm besides Jenks, Wassermann, and maybe Logan should be moved if they have good years. If Garland starts out hot he should go too, unless the Sox look like a contender. I'd like to see Broadway and/or Egbert get good time in the rotation next year alongside Floyd. And most importantly, take the best available player in the draft next year! Please, for God's sakes, don't **** that up.

eriqjaffe
11-05-2007, 01:18 PM
Who were the Type A free agents that Boston lost after '04 that netted them that many draft picks?If I had to guess: Pedro Martinez, Derek Lowe and Orlando Cabrera.

SBSoxFan
11-05-2007, 01:38 PM
The Sox can do a few things next year if some guys rebound.

In other words, a complete youth movement? I don't like your plan either, to put it midly. You're talking about trading/replacing 4/5'ths of the starting rotation. Do what things? At first I thought you meant compete in the division, but based on what you wrote after, you want to continue the dismantling based on early-season performance.

All that team will do is lose; they have no offense and no pitching.

CPditka
11-05-2007, 01:46 PM
absolutely not to mike cameron who btw is suspended for 25 games next year and not worth any of that 11.5 Mil, id rather give that to rowand. To be honest what I would really rather see is the sox trade crede and try to land melky cabrera to play LF or CF and have fields play 3B. If you cant get him then keep crede and fields, have crede play 3B and live with fields in LF for 1 year. In 2009 you can decline Thomes option and have fields play DH and keep crede at 3B (who is a obviously a defensive stud). OF are a lot easier to find than 3B.

UserNameBlank
11-05-2007, 01:46 PM
In other words, a complete youth movement? I don't like your plan either, to put it midly. You're talking about trading/replacing 4/5'ths of the starting rotation. Do what things? At first I thought you meant compete in the division, but based on what you wrote after, you want to continue the dismantling based on early-season performance.

All that team will do is lose; they have no offense and no pitching.
We won 72 games this year. There are three options:

1. Attack the FA market and, most likely, end up like the Cubs with a bunch of bad contracts waiting to happen. You want five years of Torii Hunter at 15mil per+? How about four or five years of Mr. Inconsistency Aaron Rowand for 12-13mil or so? I know, we need more SP, so let's give $10mil+ to Carlos Silva... or not.
2. Rebuild in most spots while keeping our franchise players (PK, Jenks, Buehrle).
3. Come up with a bunch of illogical trade scenarios and then kidnap other GMs and brainwash them into accepting those deals.

I vote option #2. I would vote #3 but I'm not a good kidnapper. Option #1 though just sets the team back even further.

*Edit: about contention.... teams that suck as bad as we did this year shouldn't be thinking about contending the following year. They should be thinking about the fact that they suck and then try to do things to make them not suck in the future. Veterans on the FA market do not help that, and we're not going to be getting any of the game's best prospects for our players. So, I say we try to maximize value from the guys we have that are not cornerstones and look for a couple propects on the lower tier, like A- or B+ type prospects, and then build towards a new core. I accept the fact that the Sox are probably going to be bad next year, but I'd rather have a glimmer of hope on the field instead of a glimmer of veteran grind.

IlliniSox4Life
11-05-2007, 01:54 PM
I'm so confused by this guys plans.

Why is Bobby Jenks not in any of them? Did he forget about Jenks? Can I take anything he says seriously knowing that?

broker3d
11-05-2007, 01:55 PM
Who are the minor leaguers DLS and Carter?

SBSoxFan
11-05-2007, 01:57 PM
We won 72 games this year. There are three options:

1. Attack the FA market and, most likely, end up like the Cubs with a bunch of bad contracts waiting to happen. You want five years of Torii Hunter at 15mil per+? How about four or five years of Mr. Inconsistency Aaron Rowand for 12-13mil or so? I know, we need more SP, so let's give $10mil+ to Carlos Silva... or not.
2. Rebuild in most spots while keeping our franchise players (PK, Jenks, Buehrle).
3. Come up with a bunch of illogical trade scenarios and then kidnap other GMs and brainwash them into accepting those deals.

I vote option #2. I would vote #3 but I'm not a good kidnapper. Option #1 though just sets the team back even further.

*Edit: about contention.... teams that suck as bad as we did this year shouldn't be thinking about contending the following year. They should be thinking about the fact that they suck and then try to do things to make them not suck in the future. Veterans on the FA market do not help that, and we're not going to be getting any of the game's best prospects for our players. So, I say we try to maximize value from the guys we have that are not cornerstones and look for a couple propects on the lower tier, like A- or B+ type prospects, and then build towards a new core. I accept the fact that the Sox are probably going to be bad next year, but I'd rather have a glimmer of hope on the field instead of a glimmer of veteran grind.


I think they'd be 100-loss bad. I just think you're option #2 goes too far. By the time the team would look to be competitive, you're saying goodbye or have said goodbye to PK, Thome, Dye, and Buehrle. No telling if their replacements would complete the puzzle. I don't really view that as a glimmer of hope.

itsnotrequired
11-05-2007, 01:58 PM
If I had to guess: Pedro Martinez, Derek Lowe and Orlando Cabrera.

Yep. They got the 23rd pick (from Angels for Type A Orlando Cabrera), 26th pick (from Dodgers for Type A Derek Lowe), 42nd pick (for Type A Pedro Martinez), 45th pick (for Cabrera), 47th pick (for Lowe) and the 57th pick (from Mets for Martinez).

They lost their slotted first round pick (28) to the Cardinals when they signed Renteria.

IlliniSox4Life
11-05-2007, 01:58 PM
Who are the minor leaguers DLS and Carter?

I'm guessing Fautino De Los Santos at Winston-Salem and Chris Carter at Kannapolis.

UserNameBlank
11-05-2007, 01:59 PM
He lost me when he said he wouldn't have handed out a new contract to AJ. Uh, yeah, where are we going to get a better catcher exactly?
I agree with this. AJ does a good job handling an often erratic pitching staff and on top of that he's kind of become one of the faces of our team. And he's a catcher, so it's not like his lack of athleticism is killing the team. I think whoever wrote this is just trying to come up with a reason to hate on Kenny Williams.

The Dye extension I could see being upset about, but if rebounds to something more like '05 then we have a player on a below market value contract. I think in that scenario Dye should be traded, but it wasn't necessarily a bad decision to extend him.

Tragg
11-05-2007, 02:10 PM
8. Hang on to Thornton and MacDougal, and probably Aardsma too. See if they can rebound, because if they can, everyone needs bullpen help midseason and some teams can make out like bandits because of it. The Eric Gagne trade was great for Texas, for example. And while none of our relievers sans Jenks have that kind of name, a good year could net the Sox a nice package of maybe a young future #3 starter and a decent prospect or something. At least this adds value to the organization.


I agree with this. I don't like Middle Relievers as a rule, precisely because the ones pitching well right now cost a lot and are untrustworthy anyway. Dumping these guys now would be selling low. See who can get a good 1/2 a season under their belt and THEN trade them. The Padres did that with Linebrink; Gagne. Happens all the time.

Otherwise, your plan is a tad radical for my tastes. I'd tend to prefer to hang on to the top level pitching, trading only Contreras. And really, the signing of Dye pretty much ended the idea of rebuilding.

UserNameBlank
11-05-2007, 02:15 PM
I think they'd be 100-loss bad. I just think you're option #2 goes too far. By the time the team would look to be competitive, you're saying goodbye or have said goodbye to PK, Thome, Dye, and Buehrle. No telling if their replacements would complete the puzzle. I don't really view that as a glimmer of hope.
Honestly, look at the Sox' budget. If we were to do what it sounds like the Sox want to do and pick up Rowand or Hunter, trade off Contreras and dump Cintron to pary for it, start Floyd in the rotation, and maybe pick up Eckstein to play SS and Castillo to play 2B, which would really be about the best the Sox could do on the FA market, how many wins do you think that team would provide?

Or, you could maybe look at acquiring a couple useful pieces in a trade. Say you send Garland to AZ for like Tony Pena to put in the bullpen and Orlando Hudson to play 2B. Then you dump Contreras' contract and use the money to make a trade for like Orlando Cabrera to play short. Then you use some more prospects or something to get Wily Taveras from the Rockies to lead off and play CF. Start Fields in left and Crede at 3B. That would be quite a successful offseason, but you still have a rotation where your last three starters are Danks-Floyd-Egbert/Gio/Broadway. You still have a bullpen with a bunch of questionmarks, and you still have a majority of your offense (Crede, Dye, Thome) coming off injury-riddled seasons. Even with an offseason like that I don't think this team finishes better than third.

The Sox don't have much of a choice here. I'm not trying to be a downer, but I don't know how you can be so optimistic about our chances. If you want to look at things on paper, then compare us and what we could realistically expect to achieve over the offseason to the current teams in Detroit and Cleveland.

This team, regardless of what happens over this offseason, may very well not make the playoffs until we are waving goodbye to Thome, Buerhle, and Konerko anyway. We went six years between playoff appearances in '93 and 2000, then four more years until 2005, then we've already gone two more without playoff appearances. Take a look at the rosters for the '93 and '00 teams especially. After those playoff trips, how much hope did you have for the immediate future? Compare that to how much hope you have for the immediate future now. Maybe I'm just used to it, but I'd rather see the Sox make a commitment to a younger core and go forward with it instead of shoot themselves in the foot in the FA market.

Tragg
11-05-2007, 02:21 PM
Honestly, look at the Sox' budget. If we were to do what it sounds like the Sox want to do and pick up Rowand or Hunter, trade off Contreras and dump Cintron to pary for it, start Floyd in the rotation, and maybe pick up Eckstein to play SS and Castillo to play 2B, which would really be about the best the Sox could do on the FA market, how many wins do you think that team would provide?
I don't like that plan at all.

Sox It To Em
11-05-2007, 02:34 PM
I would be ecstatic if we got Pat Burrell. This team needs some OBP.

Rockabilly
11-05-2007, 02:37 PM
According to STL Today Dan Haren will be put on the trade market as well.. If this indeed true along with the rumor of Kazmir being put on the market I would give up the farm to have these two join the Sox rotation..

PorkChopExpress
11-05-2007, 02:42 PM
According to STL Today Dan Haren will be put on the trade market as well.. If this indeed true along with the rumor of Kazmir being put on the market I would give up the farm to have these two join the Sox rotation..

You would have to give up the farm, literally. And we actually have decent starting pitching now, but holes in the field. I want to see a SS and CF first, then bullpen help, then we can talk about getting more starting pitching.

Rockabilly
11-05-2007, 02:51 PM
You would have to give up the farm, literally. And we actually have decent starting pitching now, but holes in the field. I want to see a SS and CF first, then bullpen help, then we can talk about getting more starting pitching.

I'm just dreaming here but if the Sox were to add Haren and Kazmir to the rotation to go along with Buehrle, Vazquez and Garland than put Danks,Floyd and Contreras ( because we probably can't give him away)in the bullpen we would be deadly, for me if you have real solid starting pitching everything else will fall into place

A. Cavatica
11-05-2007, 09:11 PM
I'm just dreaming here but if the Sox were to add Haren and Kazmir to the rotation to go along with Buehrle, Vazquez and Garland than put Danks,Floyd and Contreras ( because we probably can't give him away)in the bullpen we would be deadly, for me if you have real solid starting pitching everything else will fall into place

But with Haren, Kazmir, Buehrle, Vazquez and Garland...would you move Santana to the bullpen?