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Sockinchisox
11-03-2007, 10:30 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-011103sox,1,2084779.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

He hints at a lot of stuff here, saying things will be revealed soon, such as Fields' permanent position for 08, also that a deal may be close and could come as soon as next week (Crede?).

chisoxmike
11-03-2007, 10:35 AM
:rolling:


Ok, Kenny. We'll all be waiting for that...

Lip Man 1
11-03-2007, 10:52 AM
We'll see what happens..no question moves have to be made.

And I wouldn't scoff at dealing Crede, I'd be surprised it would happen this early..I'd assume teams would actually want to see him back on the field in spring training first but you never know.

The fact is Joe can be a free agent after this season and it's a fact who his agent is.

If Joe's healthy and a deal can be worked out I'd love for the Sox to keep him, but both are big if's.

Lip

...
11-03-2007, 11:16 AM
If Johnny Damon ends up on this team, I will be ****ing pissed...

SBSoxFan
11-03-2007, 11:17 AM
We'll see what happens..no question moves have to be made.

And I wouldn't scoff at dealing Crede, I'd be surprised it would happen this early..I'd assume teams would actually want to see him back on the field in spring training first but you never know.

The fact is Joe can be a free agent after this season and it's a fact who his agent is.

If Joe's healthy and a deal can be worked out I'd love for the Sox to keep him, but both are big if's.

Lip

Dealing Crede makes a lot of sense. Not having his defense though, I'm not so sure about. You can move Fields back to third, put Owens in LF, and sign a FA center fielder. Then you might want to find a SS who can lead off, round out the bullpen and off you go.

DickAllen72
11-03-2007, 11:20 AM
If Johnny Damon ends up on this team, I will be ****ing pissed...
I wouldn't like it either, unless he comes along with one or two really quality players.

DumpJerry
11-03-2007, 11:24 AM
1. Anderson's quote, unless it is incorrect or taken out of context, combined with the fact he has refused to talk with the Tribune since July, shows what a jerk he can be. Good riddance.

2. Cancel all plans on Wednesday. Stay glued to WSI to get the big news.

3. Didn't they used to have the GM meetings in December?

sox1970
11-03-2007, 11:30 AM
3. Didn't they used to have the GM meetings in December?

GM meetings are in November; Winter meetings are in December.

churlish
11-03-2007, 11:45 AM
If the Sox do not think they can afford Crede, Damon would make sense if the Yanks chipped in plenty of cash. Damon fills the void at leadoff, and I would guess he would slide over to LF if the Sox signed Hunter or Rowand. In his "off year" he had an OBP of around .350, which would be a huge step up from Owens or Pods, and he has plenty of pop in his bat.

Zisk77
11-03-2007, 11:51 AM
I would guess Konerko could be traded with Fields playing 1b. Crede's value is questionable because uncertainty regarding his back. Konerko has a lot of value (angels) and could brink back both speed and relief pitching. It could also free up some money wich could be used to in FA to fill other needs.

Domeshot17
11-03-2007, 11:56 AM
Is the Fields playing 1b jargon going to last all winter, like the Dye playing first did?

He has never played a game there, and would be terrible if he cant dig throws out like Konerko does.

SouthSideLove
11-03-2007, 12:05 PM
I would guess Konerko could be traded with Fields playing 1b. Crede's value is questionable because uncertainty regarding his back. Konerko has a lot of value (angels) and could brink back both speed and relief pitching. It could also free up some money wich could be used to in FA to fill other needs.

IMHO, trading Konerko at this point would be detrimental to the nucleus that has been set up for this team. Resigning Konerko before '06, and Buerhle this past season was all contingent upon keeping the core of the team intact.

gregory18n
11-03-2007, 12:28 PM
If getting Fields a full-time position is a cornerstone of the Big Plan, we're totally screwed up! if we're getting rid of Crede &/or Konerko, we're heading to the cellar! It seems the elder's on this board love to squelch any positive opinions in order to maintain their doom & gloom, all hail the mighty prospects philosophy. The Sox haven't had the greatest track record with prospects. Hopefully Williams plan is more creative than than our mighty elders', or you can call us the New Royals.

...
11-03-2007, 12:30 PM
If getting Fields a full-time position is a cornerstone of the Big Plan, we're totally screwed up! if we're getting rid of Crede &/or Konerko, we're heading to the cellar! It seems the elder's on this board love to squelch any positive opinions in order to maintain their doom & gloom, all hail the mighty prospects philosophy. The Sox haven't had the greatest track record with prospects. Hopefully Williams plan is more creative than than our mighty elders', or you can call us the New Royals.

Go away...

chisoxfanatic
11-03-2007, 12:35 PM
Is the Fields playing 1b jargon going to last all winter, like the Dye playing first did?

He has never played a game there, and would be terrible if he cant dig throws out like Konerko does.
That's right. Getting rid of Konerko would be a mistake, as would moving Fields to any other position--he didn't even display fielding mastery (or anything close to that) at his current position.

JermaineDye05
11-03-2007, 12:40 PM
I would really like to see Kenny make a big splash and somehow pick up Crawford but I really doubt that's going to happen. I'm guessing Kenny's going after our new lead off hitter (Furcal? Taveras?). He could also be making our rotation better by picking up another starter (is Willis still available?). The possibilities of what he's planning are limitless. I trust in Kenny, whatever he has planned.

gregory18n
11-03-2007, 12:49 PM
OK, that was fun! Wouldn't it be great if Willis was available.

Hitmen77
11-03-2007, 01:43 PM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-011103sox,1,2084779.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

He hints at a lot of stuff here, saying things will be revealed soon, such as Fields' permanent position for 08, also that a deal may be close and could come as soon as next week (Crede?).

Sounds like a hint that they're going to trade Crede. I hope it isn't true.

SBSoxFan
11-03-2007, 01:44 PM
I would really like to see Kenny make a big splash and somehow pick up Crawford but I really doubt that's going to happen. I'm guessing Kenny's going after our new lead off hitter (Furcal? Taveras?). He could also be making our rotation better by picking up another starter (is Willis still available?). The possibilities of what he's planning are limitless. I trust in Kenny, whatever he has planned.


Crawford really doesn't solve any problems. Hanley Ramirez on the other hand ...

LITTLE NELL
11-03-2007, 01:45 PM
My guess is we sign Hunter, move Owens to LF and Fields back to 3B. Somehow we trade Crede for a high OBP SS. I cant see us keeping Crede since Boras is his agent. Does anybody know if Crede has started any baseball activities?

goon
11-03-2007, 01:49 PM
Sounds like a hint that they're going to trade Crede. I hope it isn't true.

Despite the reports given at WSI that Fields doesn't like to play LF because his "legs were getting tired," I still have to believe that LF and 1B are options along with 3B.

One more thing. If we do trade Crede to the Yankees, we better get Melky. Beyond Mike Lowell, there aren't that many options for 3B on the FA Market, unlike the many CF's available. The Sox could sign Hunter, Rowand or Jones, so you gotta believe that if the Sox do trade Crede they have the upperhand in any negotiation with the Yankees and hopefully don't settle for Damon.

misty60481
11-03-2007, 01:56 PM
I dont think any team is going to give up much for Crede until he proves he is over his back problems. If he is back to 100% why even think about trading him, a 3rd baseman that can hit 25 HRs and 90 RBIs and field like he does is valuable.

JermaineDye05
11-03-2007, 01:58 PM
Crawford really doesn't solve any problems. Hanley Ramirez on the other hand ...

I know he's not a lead off hitter, but he's a left fielder which we need. A good defender and he has speed which this club really needs badly. With Crawford and one of either Hunter or Rowand (I'm of course assuming the Sox sign one of these two), our pitching becomes much better. Since we don't have to worry about Pods dropping any fly balls or letting them bounce off his head.

JermaineDye05
11-03-2007, 02:00 PM
I dont think any team is going to give up much for Crede until he proves he is over his back problems. If he is back to 100% why even think about trading him, a 3rd baseman that can hit 25 HRs and 90 RBIs and field like he does is valuable.

Boras is his agent. He's a free agent in a year and will command a lot of money. The Sox have Fields who looks like he's ready to replace Crede. Trade Crede for something this club needs bad, bullpen help or a lead off hitter.

misty60481
11-03-2007, 02:05 PM
If you were a GM of another team would you trade anybody good for Crede until you knew for sure how his back is ?

getonbckthr
11-03-2007, 02:12 PM
If you were a GM of another team would you trade anybody good for Crede until you knew for sure how his back is ?
Which team am I? The Yankees. Tell me about my system. Do I have a 3B prospect ready for the big time. What about my OF do I have enough where I could afford to trade one? Where is my pitching at? Can afford to trade one? Do I have prospects ready to ake the jump?

DrCrawdad
11-03-2007, 02:38 PM
If Johnny Damon ends up on this team, I will be ****ing pissed...

Just say no...to Johnny Damon. An outfield of Damon and Owens will be an outfield of terribly weak arms.

SBSoxFan
11-03-2007, 02:46 PM
I know he's not a lead off hitter, but he's a left fielder which we need. A good defender and he has speed which this club really needs badly. With Crawford and one of either Hunter or Rowand (I'm of course assuming the Sox sign one of these two), our pitching becomes much better. Since we don't have to worry about Pods dropping any fly balls or letting them bounce off his head.

The Sox have bigger problems. They have Fields currently penciled in in LF. Owens could also play there. They may even give Pods another shot. Putting Crawford there now displaces Fields, and starts a domino effect with Pods, Owens, and Crede. And you still haven't addressed lead off. There's no sense giving up a lot for, what is likely, the easiest position to field.

rowand33
11-03-2007, 03:02 PM
Just say no...to Johnny Damon. An outfield of Damon and Owens will be an outfield of terribly weak arms.

I'd be fine with having Damon lead off... especially if the price tag is crede!

have you seen our current roster?

The .270/.351/.396 he put up in a down year is better than any internal options to leadoff, and there aren't many better ones available externally.

Damon in LF, Hunter/Rowand in CF, pick up fatboy's option and leave him at SS batting 9th. Owens on the bench as the 4th outfielder.

going around the horn the team would be:
c-aj
1b-paulie
2b-richar
ss-uribe
3b-fields
lf-damon
cf-rowand/hunter
rf-dye
dh-thome

does that solve the speed problem? eh, we'd have a legit leadoff guy with owens and ozuna on the bench. Though not speedsters, I wouldn't call Rowand, Fields, or Richar slow... Fields stole bases in the minors, no?

Our outfield defense gets a lot better. Fields is below average at 3rd, but passable if he hits 30-40 hrs and drives in 100.

don't give up any pitching. sign some guys for the bullpen...

is that team as good as the tigers or indians? probably not given a lot of guys performances last year. but it has 2005-esque potential

IF thome, konerko, dye, damon return to form
IF rowand/hunter repeat career years
IF the pitching rebounds
IF Fields is what we think he is...

then that team could make the playoffs.

At the very least, I think this is realistic and while it's not my first choice, I would not be upset if we fielded this team going into 2008.

JermaineDye05
11-03-2007, 03:58 PM
The Sox have bigger problems. They have Fields currently penciled in in LF. Owens could also play there. They may even give Pods another shot. Putting Crawford there now displaces Fields, and starts a domino effect with Pods, Owens, and Crede. And you still haven't addressed lead off. There's no sense giving up a lot for, what is likely, the easiest position to field.

Crede will likely be traded before the season starts, and I'm guessing the new lead off hitter for the Sox will be replacing Uribe at SS whoever that may be. I have way too many assumptions. I'll just be honest, I just really want to see Carl Crawford in a WS uniform:D:.

misty60481
11-03-2007, 04:06 PM
There was a story that the Phillies might trade Burrell for Crede and eat some of his salary. Thats a pretty good outfield if we pick up Rowand/Hunter. The hell with a lead-off man he only leads off in 1st inning and maybe once more during the game. Not that many games are won in the 1st inning anyway.

Rockabilly
11-03-2007, 04:08 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing Damon on the Sox as long as he is our LF and we sign Hunter or Rowand...

Qdiddy
11-03-2007, 04:14 PM
Wasn't there a Konerko for Figgins and Shields thread at one point? I'd still take that deal in a second. Here's my wishful thinking lineup. I hope it doesn't seem to playstation"ish".

Figgins 3B-Trade Konerko
Gullien LF-Free Agent
Tejada SS-Trade for Garland
Thome DH
Dye RF
Pierzynski C
Fields 1B
Owens CF
Uribe 2B

Pitching
Buehrle
FA-?
Vazquez
Danks
Gonzalez, Masset, or FA

Bullpen
Jenks
Shields-Konerko Trade
Thorton
Joe Kennedy-FA signing
Wasserman
Haeger or Kerry Wood
Overrall, I think the team speed and bullpen has been greatly improved with these moves. We'll have two of the best arms in baseball in Guillen and Dye playing the corners. Owens showed me enough to let him handle centerfield.
Our bullpen will get a big lift having a guy like Shields coming in to setup for Jenks.

Do you think this team would compete in the AL Central? If not why not? Again, I know we need to replace Garland, so keep in mind that this is based on KW getting a solid 2-3 starter.

I'm calling 90 plus wins for this team.

MCHSoxFan
11-03-2007, 04:16 PM
My heart is pounding...my chest is on fire..AND I CANNOT WAIT TO SEE SEE A GREAT MOVE!!! :D:

Let's Go Kenny Let's Go!!! (Repeat 3 times). :D:

Also, I forgot who posted it, but the line-up of Damon, Rowand, Fields, Dye, Paulie, AJ, Juan, Richar, Thome, and not to get rid of starting pitching and get some good bullpen guys is right. Not my favorite line-up, but it is pretty good and is certainly reasonable.

Crede_Fan
11-03-2007, 04:18 PM
Figgins over Crede? :o:

oeo
11-03-2007, 04:21 PM
That's right. Getting rid of Konerko would be a mistake, as would moving Fields to any other position--he didn't even display fielding mastery (or anything close to that) at his current position.

Fields wasn't great at third by any means, but some of you are taking it to another level. Andy Gonzalez was bad; Fields, not so much. He wasn't Joe Crede, but he definitely showed improvement from the time he was called up to the end of the year.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-03-2007, 04:37 PM
For Sox Fans of a certain age, I'm sure we all agree that having Kenny at the controls is 1000-times more reassuring than the efforts of any of his recent predecessors. I have every reason to believe KW will make a full accounting of himself.

This is 180 degrees opposite of the Ron Schueler years when sending a dollar figure across on a fax machine was considered good enough.
:mad:

guillen4life13
11-03-2007, 04:38 PM
Wasn't there a Konerko for Figgins and Shields thread at one point? I'd still take that deal in a second. Here's my wishful thinking lineup. I hope it doesn't seem to playstation"ish".

Figgins 3B-Trade Konerko
Gullien LF-Free Agent
Tejada SS-Trade for Garland
Thome DH
Dye RF
Pierzynski C
Fields 1B
Owens CF
Uribe 2B

Pitching
Buehrle
FA-?
Vazquez
Danks
Gonzalez, Masset, or FA

Bullpen
Jenks
Shields-Konerko Trade
Thorton
Joe Kennedy-FA signing
Wasserman
Haeger or Kerry Wood
Overrall, I think the team speed and bullpen has been greatly improved with these moves. We'll have two of the best arms in baseball in Guillen and Dye playing the corners. Owens showed me enough to let him handle centerfield.
Our bullpen will get a big lift having a guy like Shields coming in to setup for Jenks.

Do you think this team would compete in the AL Central? If not why not? Again, I know we need to replace Garland, so keep in mind that this is based on KW getting a solid 2-3 starter.

I'm calling 90 plus wins for this team.

I was a big fan of that Konerko for Figgins+Shields idea. I might have been the one to suggest it initially, but who knows if it will actually happen. Figgins is young and good. Then trade Crede to make space for Jose Guillen.

Your starting rotation, however, is that of a 75 win team. Who knows, but I doubt the Sox will move hard to acquire a legit SP in favor of letting the young guys develop.

Domeshot17
11-03-2007, 04:50 PM
I still don't think you can deal PK. You are relying then on 2 injury prone players to make up your heart of the order. Plus what FA is going to sign here and feel like he is safe here when just 2 years after we locked up PK long term and named him our captain we ship him off. You have to realize the way we treat players does impact how FA players look us when they sign.

rowand33
11-03-2007, 05:03 PM
I can't stand the Fields to first stuff.

First isn't as easy as people think it is. Paulie's D at first base would be sorely missed.

If we can trade Crede for Damon to shore up leadoff, and sign one of the free agent CFs all while NOT trading Jon Garland...

that's something I'm interested in.

And I understand the argument of "get something for garland before he walks" but I'd like the team to be competitive in 2008, and that doesn't happen by trading garland unless we get some amazing young pitchers in a trade (which we won't).

It is in our best interests to keep the current starting pitching as is. Only tradable guy is Jose, and even then, I think the upside of him returning to form is greater than anything we'd get for him.

Rocky Soprano
11-03-2007, 05:19 PM
I LOVE Crede and think IF he is healthy he will be sorely missed if traded. Fields has a great bat but is no where near Crede's level when it comes to defense. Crede in my opinion plays gold glove caliber defense. Most of our pitchers benefit from having Crede at third.

While I do agree that Williams needs to plug some holes, I just don't see how he would get true value for Crede since no one knows if he is healthy.

If he is healthy he is worth more than Damon and his noodle arm.

I hope Crede is healthy and he remains our 3rd baseman for a LONG LONG time.

DumpJerry
11-03-2007, 05:20 PM
:KW
Ok. Here's the news:
I saved the team money by switching to GEICO.

Go wild.

chisox77
11-03-2007, 05:24 PM
I used to love to speculate lineups, but there are so many directions the White Sox can take this offseason. It all depends on the first trade they make, or the first FA signing they make. Who knows? I am still tempted to think that even though the Sox finished 72-90, a real good offseason can put them back on track to contend. We'll just have to wait and see.

:cool:

spiffie
11-03-2007, 05:49 PM
For Sox Fans of a certain age, I'm sure we all agree that having Kenny at the controls is 1000-times more reassuring than the efforts of any of his recent predecessors. I have every reason to believe KW will make a full accounting of himself.

This is 180 degrees opposite of the Ron Schueler years when sending a dollar figure across on a fax machine was considered good enough.
:mad:
Can we get Larry Himes back to handle the draft and nothing else? Let Kenny handle the major league roster, and let Himes find guys like Fernandez, Ventura, McDowell, and Mr. Frank Thomas :D:

rowand33
11-03-2007, 06:03 PM
I LOVE Crede and think IF he is healthy he will be sorely missed if traded. Fields has a great bat but is no where near Crede's level when it comes to defense. Crede in my opinion plays gold glove caliber defense. Most of our pitchers benefit from having Crede at third.

While I do agree that Williams needs to plug some holes, I just don't see how he would get true value for Crede since no one knows if he is healthy.

If he is healthy he is worth more than Damon and his noodle arm.

I hope Crede is healthy and he remains our 3rd baseman for a LONG LONG time.

I love Crede too. One of my favorite Sox.

But Fields is a viable option at third, and we have no leadoff man.

The team is better off with Fields at third and somebody that can leadoff in LF than with Crede at 3B and Fields in left, IMO

wealz07
11-03-2007, 06:03 PM
Miguel Cabrera is available ...

Best odds right now though I'd say is Fields at third, Damon in left, and Hunter/Rowand in center.

Lineup:

Damon
Fields/Rowand
Thome
Konerko
Hunter/Dye
Pierzynski
Dye/Fields
Uribe
Richar

Fix bullpen and they might be able to contend. Lot of age in that lineup.

getonbckthr
11-03-2007, 06:52 PM
Miguel Cabrera is available ...

Best odds right now though I'd say is Fields at third, Damon in left, and Hunter/Rowand in center.

Lineup:

Damon
Fields/Rowand
Thome
Konerko
Hunter/Dye
Pierzynski
Dye/Fields
Uribe
Richar

Fix bullpen and they might be able to contend. Lot of age in that lineup.
The only people I fell comfortable with there is Paulie and AJ. Injury prone in bold, constant weight and lazy issues in italic, and 2nd year sophmore jinx are underlined. I cannot find anything right now convincing for us to contend in 08.

JB98
11-03-2007, 07:01 PM
I'm no fan of the Konerko for Figgins and Shields talk.

We're going to trade Paul's .275/30/100 for that? Shields is a middle reliever who struggled the second half of last year. Figgins is a nice player, but c'mon! If we're going to trade Paul, we need three guys who can help us in return.

Crede for Damon? Makes sense. I don't want to part with Joe, but you have to give to get and we have a young, healthy 3B ready in the wings. And we need a LF and a leadoff hitter. Such a move would need to be coupled with the acquisition of a free-agent CF. The outfield combination of Damon, Owens and Dye is a little frightening. We need SOMEONE out there who is a plus defensive outfielder.

getonbckthr
11-03-2007, 07:08 PM
I'm no fan of the Konerko for Figgins and Shields talk.

We're going to trade Paul's .275/30/100 for that? Shields is a middle reliever who struggled the second half of last year. Figgins is a nice player, but c'mon! If we're going to trade Paul, we need three guys who can help us in return.

Crede for Damon? Makes sense. I don't want to part with Joe, but you have to give to get and we have a young, healthy 3B ready in the wings. And we need a LF and a leadoff hitter. Such a move would need to be coupled with the acquisition of a free-agent CF. The outfield combination of Damon, Owens and Dye is a little frightening. We need SOMEONE out there who is a plus defensive outfielder.
I'm 50/50 here with you.
Paulie is definately worth more than a crapshoot reliever and Dave Roberts minus 10 years. If we are trading Paulie its either for 2 guys that will step in and make an impact immediately or 3-4 guys who will contribute between 09 and 2010.
As far as Crede for Damon I do not like the idea of dealing a gold glove third basemen entering the prime of his career for a a guy who is too old to roam CF anymore, doesn't play great defense, speed is decreasing, and can't play 160 games. I would rather deal Crede for 2-3 prospects.

CLR01
11-03-2007, 07:30 PM
1. Anderson's quote, unless it is incorrect or taken out of context, combined with the fact he has refused to talk with the Tribune since July, shows what a jerk he can be. Good riddance.

He refused to give an interview to the tribune that everyone would twist into him being a whiney jerk? What and *******, the little ****er needs to shut his mouth and do what he's told.

Soxfest
11-03-2007, 08:23 PM
Bor-ass as Crede's agent his days are numbered anyway so If deal helps the team I say do it, time to play Fields everyday.

Oblong
11-03-2007, 08:36 PM
Kenny Williams should be able to get more than Johnny Damon if he were to trade Crede to NY, bad back/contract situation and all.

soxinem1
11-03-2007, 08:47 PM
Kenny Williams should be able to get more than Johnny Damon if he were to trade Crede to NY, bad back/contract situation and all.

Making the mistake and over-valuing Crede, who is not even healthy enough to swing a bat, and being able to trade him in that state for one of the better lead off men of his generation, would be a no-brainer, especially since it would solve two position issues immediately.

As much as I like Crede, he is no sure thing for 2008.

You also have to remember the KW philosophy: He prefers veterans in their 30's, coming off injuries/off years, to rookies, unless they are up ****'s Creek and cannot get someone else for the spot.

JB98
11-03-2007, 09:10 PM
I'm 50/50 here with you.
Paulie is definately worth more than a crapshoot reliever and Dave Roberts minus 10 years. If we are trading Paulie its either for 2 guys that will step in and make an impact immediately or 3-4 guys who will contribute between 09 and 2010.
As far as Crede for Damon I do not like the idea of dealing a gold glove third basemen entering the prime of his career for a a guy who is too old to roam CF anymore, doesn't play great defense, speed is decreasing, and can't play 160 games. I would rather deal Crede for 2-3 prospects.

You have no idea whether Crede will ever be the same again. Neither do I. Neither does KW. We do know that Josh Fields can swing the bat and be decent at 3B.

My preference is to keep Crede, but if we can fill a hole or two elsewhere by moving him, then KW should pull the trigger. That's hard for me to type because I'm very appreciative of Joe's contributions to the Sox through the years. But like I said, will he be the same again?

Grzegorz
11-03-2007, 09:48 PM
Crede for Damon? Makes sense.

No, it really doesn't... Damon's on the downside of his career and he's nothing more than a DH. If the Chicago White Sox are so inclined, hold on to Crede and I believe you'll get much more in return via the trade.

Oblong
11-03-2007, 10:15 PM
With Damon I think you know what you will get, which is not much. He should be the Yankees 4th outfielder next year. With Crede there's still hope and he's 5 years younger.

Now if the Yankees pay some of his contract then I could see a Crede/Damon trade making sense. If Williams called up Cashman and offered that deal without NY picking up some of Damon's contract Cashman could not say "yes" fast enough.

Sockinchisox
11-03-2007, 11:14 PM
Just throwing this quote out there regarding the "possible upcoming trade".

The White Sox general manager was asked recently whether the club had made a decision concerning incumbent shortstop Juan Uribe and picking up his $5 million club option for the 2008 season, or whether the White Sox still planned to try to upgrade up the middle via a trade through Wednesday's deadline on Uribe. And Williams' answer?


"Yes," said Williams, followed by brief silence.


from whitesox.com

JB98
11-03-2007, 11:31 PM
No, it really doesn't... Damon's on the downside of his career and he's nothing more than a DH. If the Chicago White Sox are so inclined, hold on to Crede and I believe you'll get much more in return via the trade.

Questionable. None of us here know the market for Crede. And once the season starts, his value could either increase or decline dramatically.

JermaineDye05
11-04-2007, 12:39 AM
Just throwing this quote out there regarding the "possible upcoming trade".



from whitesox.com


I like the quote, although I think the answer to that was an obvious yes. Since there's 4 days left to his deadline, I'd think Kenny isn't waiting until the last minute to make his decision. I really wouldn't mind seeing Miguel Tejada at short although he's another guy in his early 30's. I highly doubt the Marlins are going to give up Ramirez, but he'd be a great addition to this ball club.

HaroMaster87
11-04-2007, 01:02 AM
We'll see what happens..no question moves have to be made.

And I wouldn't scoff at dealing Crede, I'd be surprised it would happen this early..I'd assume teams would actually want to see him back on the field in spring training first but you never know.

The fact is Joe can be a free agent after this season and it's a fact who his agent is.

If Joe's healthy and a deal can be worked out I'd love for the Sox to keep him, but both are big if's.

Lip

I know everyone loves all of our slow, plodding, base clogging power hitters but if you want to improve team speed, a couple of these guys HAVE to go...and Joe would be the first one I sent packing...

He's slow, is prone to long hitting slumps and hasn't neen healthy in 2 years...not to mention Boras

ChiSoxFan35
11-04-2007, 02:09 AM
When Kenny makes a deal it's usually ahead of the curve. I wanna say the Garcia deal was one of the first of the winter meetings? And Thome came around Thanksgiving. And if it's in season, it's usually at least a week before the deadline

Lillian
11-04-2007, 02:16 AM
Most everyone seems to think that the obvious conclusion to be drawn by Williams' suggestion that Josh Fields' permanent position for '08 could be decided by a pending move or two, is that Crede is going to be traded, and Fields will take over at 3B. There are several problems with this scenario.
Crede is not likely to bring enough in a trade to begin to fill all of the holes that the Sox have. Trading him before he has had an opportunity to prove that he's healthy is probably not wise. Moreover, it would just create another hole, that being questionable defense on the left side of the infield.
And if the move is going to result in more team speed, how does that jibe with Fields moving to Left?

No, I think this all suggests that something like the oft mentioned trade with the Angels is in the works. In that scenario, you have Konerko being sent to the Angels to fill their need for a hitter to protect Vlad. In return the Sox would likely get their lead off hitter, Figgins, one solid bullpen arm, and perhaps a SS, like Aybar. That would suggest that Fields plays 1B, a position that he should be able to play better than the outfield, and represents less of a liability than 3B.

The anticipated F.A. signing of Hunter, or Rowand would then fill the final remaining major hole.
The team would still have plenty of power in the middle of the lineup, with Dye, Thome, Hunter (or Rowand), Fields, and Crede.
Team speed would be improved with Figgins, Aybar, and Hunter being added, and Fields replacing the very slow Konerko. The only really slow guys would be Crede, Thome and A.J. Richar stays at 2B, providing more speed, and Owens backs up at the 4th outfielder. Ozuna, returning to the bench provides even more speed.

The Starting pitching remains in tact.

The Bullpen is strengthened.

The Defense is improved over last year, with Hunter in CF and Crede back at 3B. Aybar's better range could almost make up for the fact that his arm is not as strong as Uribe's.

The whole thing is probably close to revenue neutral, with Konerko's big contract being exchanged for the F.A. Centerfielder. There might even be enough money to resign Garland.

Then too, there is still the possiblity that the Sox could get Furcal from the Dodgers, especially if LA signs A-Rod. In that case, they let Aybar spend the year at Charlotte, or perhaps ask for a different piece in the Angels trade.

At any rate, it should be interesting.

Domeshot17
11-04-2007, 02:42 AM
Fields has never played a game at first. You realize PK is one of the best at digging balls out right. I mean everytime you see Crede dive or uribe make that long throw, how many in the dirt does pk miss?

Now imagine if fields keeps misplaying those, or doesnt know when to stretch or transition to the outside of the bag. 1b is a tough position to learn, and the balls hit at him are often the same he struggles with at 3rd

I feel safer with him and lf (and safest with him at 3rd). He is a young, VERY VERY ATHLETIC ball player. He is very smart. He is going to grow into a fine LF, and an good enough 3b wherever they keep him. Putting him at first is going to screw with him, his 3rd position in 1 year, and he has to learn it on the fly. Maybe one day he moves to first, but that would be after he is tutored by a guy like PK. Right now he is not a 1b, Jermaine Dye is not a 1b, Toby Hall is not a 1b, so lets stop trying to stick everyone there out of position. If it was that easy then Bonds and everyone else who is too old or too crappy to play the OF would move to first and not DH. We saw Piazza struggle with, Victor Martinez struggle with, Ortiz, its way more then stand on base catch ball

SBSoxFan
11-04-2007, 04:53 AM
When Kenny makes a deal it's usually ahead of the curve. I wanna say the Garcia deal was one of the first of the winter meetings? And Thome came around Thanksgiving. And if it's in season, it's usually at least a week before the deadline

The trade for Garcia was made during the season.

Lillian
11-04-2007, 06:13 AM
Fields has never played a game at first. You realize PK is one of the best at digging balls out right. I mean everytime you see Crede dive or uribe make that long throw, how many in the dirt does pk miss?

Now imagine if fields keeps misplaying those, or doesnt know when to stretch or transition to the outside of the bag. 1b is a tough position to learn, and the balls hit at him are often the same he struggles with at 3rd

I feel safer with him and lf (and safest with him at 3rd). He is a young, VERY VERY ATHLETIC ball player. He is very smart. He is going to grow into a fine LF, and an good enough 3b wherever they keep him. Putting him at first is going to screw with him, his 3rd position in 1 year, and he has to learn it on the fly. Maybe one day he moves to first, but that would be after he is tutored by a guy like PK. Right now he is not a 1b, Jermaine Dye is not a 1b, Toby Hall is not a 1b, so lets stop trying to stick everyone there out of position. If it was that easy then Bonds and everyone else who is too old or too crappy to play the OF would move to first and not DH. We saw Piazza struggle with, Victor Martinez struggle with, Ortiz, its way more then stand on base catch ball

Do you think that it is easier to learn to play left than First?
Or is it more about the issue of asking him to learn a third position?
Of course, you're right about Konerko being very good at "picking it" at First, and he does eliminate a lot of infielder's throwing errors, but I wonder how much worse a former third baseman will be. Paulie played some Third, between catcher, and his ultimate move to First. Wouldn't you think that Third is about the best kind of training for guys transitioning to First?

Frater Perdurabo
11-04-2007, 06:18 AM
I'm worried about Fields' ability to turn the 3-6-3 DP. :rolleyes:

Most of the balls PK digs out of the dirt are thrown by Uribe, not Crede.

Lillian
11-04-2007, 06:32 AM
Another thought on the Fields discussion; Let's face it, at this point, he is a defensive liability wherever he plays. I'd still like to see him platoon with Thome at DH. That would create a very potent offensive weapon at that spot in the lineup. Maybe we should ask the Angels for Kotchman, instead of Aybar. That would almost certainly require one more player from us.
We could then hold out for the Furcal deal, in order to upgrade Short.

rdivaldi
11-04-2007, 07:49 AM
The trade for Garcia was made during the season.

I think he was referring to the trade "of" Garcia...

dickallen15
11-04-2007, 07:50 AM
Most everyone seems to think that the obvious conclusion to be drawn by Williams' suggestion that Josh Fields' permanent position for '08 could be decided by a pending move or two, is that Crede is going to be traded, and Fields will take over at 3B. There are several problems with this scenario.
Crede is not likely to bring enough in a trade to begin to fill all of the holes that the Sox have. Trading him before he has had an opportunity to prove that he's healthy is probably not wise. Moreover, it would just create another hole, that being questionable defense on the left side of the infield.
And if the move is going to result in more team speed, how does that jibe with Fields moving to Left?

No, I think this all suggests that something like the oft mentioned trade with the Angels is in the works. In that scenario, you have Konerko being sent to the Angels to fill their need for a hitter to protect Vlad. In return the Sox would likely get their lead off hitter, Figgins, one solid bullpen arm, and perhaps a SS, like Aybar. That would suggest that Fields plays 1B, a position that he should be able to play better than the outfield, and represents less of a liability than 3B.

The anticipated F.A. signing of Hunter, or Rowand would then fill the final remaining major hole.
The team would still have plenty of power in the middle of the lineup, with Dye, Thome, Hunter (or Rowand), Fields, and Crede.
Team speed would be improved with Figgins, Aybar, and Hunter being added, and Fields replacing the very slow Konerko. The only really slow guys would be Crede, Thome and A.J. Richar stays at 2B, providing more speed, and Owens backs up at the 4th outfielder. Ozuna, returning to the bench provides even more speed.

The Starting pitching remains in tact.

The Bullpen is strengthened.

The Defense is improved over last year, with Hunter in CF and Crede back at 3B. Aybar's better range could almost make up for the fact that his arm is not as strong as Uribe's.

The whole thing is probably close to revenue neutral, with Konerko's big contract being exchanged for the F.A. Centerfielder. There might even be enough money to resign Garland.

Then too, there is still the possiblity that the Sox could get Furcal from the Dodgers, especially if LA signs A-Rod. In that case, they let Aybar spend the year at Charlotte, or perhaps ask for a different piece in the Angels trade.

At any rate, it should be interesting.

As for Fields, the fact that the White Sox scrapped plans to have him work in LF in winter ball is pretty telling IMO. Watching him in LF, he seems light years away from being adequate out there. At 3rd, although he makes several poor plays, he's made some spectacular ones as well. I don't think they want to get in a position where he has to learn yet another postion next spring. He needs to spend time shortening his swing. Crede could be traded, but I would think teams would like to see what he looks like in the field before trading for him, unless they are very comfortable with the medical reports. He also still could be non-tendered. The thinking could be the White Sox would probably have to pay him $5.5 million or so, and if everything goes well in spring training they could trade him, but might determine because of his contract status and representation, and still questionable physical condition, he might not bring much back in a trade, so why risk paying him the money when they are comfortable with a replacement already on the roster.

SBSoxFan
11-04-2007, 07:58 AM
I think he was referring to the trade "of" Garcia...

Oh. That makes more sense. :redface:

Grzegorz
11-04-2007, 08:24 AM
Screw the "suspense"; this isn't a Hitchcock movie. Just get the job done.

KyWhiSoxFan
11-04-2007, 08:25 AM
No, I think this all suggests that something like the oft mentioned trade with the Angels is in the works. In that scenario, you have Konerko being sent to the Angels to fill their need for a hitter to protect Vlad. In return the Sox would likely get their lead off hitter, Figgins, one solid bullpen arm, and perhaps a SS, like Aybar. That would suggest that Fields plays 1B, a position that he should be able to play better than the outfield, and represents less of a liability than 3B.

If the Sox trade PK to the Angels, I want Erwin Santana included. I think he'll be a great reliever. He could pitch the 7th and 8th to shorten games and be the bridge to Jenks. He's one of those pitchers who has great stuff but has not found his niche yet. I think it's in the pen.

Tragg
11-04-2007, 10:08 AM
Damon

His arm makes Podsenik's look like Roberto Clemente's

Qdiddy
11-04-2007, 10:08 AM
Most everyone seems to think that the obvious conclusion to be drawn by Williams' suggestion that Josh Fields' permanent position for '08 could be decided by a pending move or two, is that Crede is going to be traded, and Fields will take over at 3B. There are several problems with this scenario.
Crede is not likely to bring enough in a trade to begin to fill all of the holes that the Sox have. Trading him before he has had an opportunity to prove that he's healthy is probably not wise. Moreover, it would just create another hole, that being questionable defense on the left side of the infield.
And if the move is going to result in more team speed, how does that jibe with Fields moving to Left?

No, I think this all suggests that something like the oft mentioned trade with the Angels is in the works. In that scenario, you have Konerko being sent to the Angels to fill their need for a hitter to protect Vlad. In return the Sox would likely get their lead off hitter, Figgins, one solid bullpen arm, and perhaps a SS, like Aybar. That would suggest that Fields plays 1B, a position that he should be able to play better than the outfield, and represents less of a liability than 3B.

The anticipated F.A. signing of Hunter, or Rowand would then fill the final remaining major hole.
The team would still have plenty of power in the middle of the lineup, with Dye, Thome, Hunter (or Rowand), Fields, and Crede.
Team speed would be improved with Figgins, Aybar, and Hunter being added, and Fields replacing the very slow Konerko. The only really slow guys would be Crede, Thome and A.J. Richar stays at 2B, providing more speed, and Owens backs up at the 4th outfielder. Ozuna, returning to the bench provides even more speed.

The Starting pitching remains in tact.

The Bullpen is strengthened.

The Defense is improved over last year, with Hunter in CF and Crede back at 3B. Aybar's better range could almost make up for the fact that his arm is not as strong as Uribe's.

The whole thing is probably close to revenue neutral, with Konerko's big contract being exchanged for the F.A. Centerfielder. There might even be enough money to resign Garland.

Then too, there is still the possiblity that the Sox could get Furcal from the Dodgers, especially if LA signs A-Rod. In that case, they let Aybar spend the year at Charlotte, or perhaps ask for a different piece in the Angels trade.

At any rate, it should be interesting.



I like it!! This is exactly what I was saying. TRADE PAULIE! Let's all get over the World Series hang over. I know the GrandSlam against Houston was one of the most exciting moments in all of our lives, but think about it. Overall, Paulie is one of the worst clutch hitters in the league. Hawk loves to mention how great a fastball hitter he is, but how many times does he pop up or ground into a DP when someone throws him a "Plus" fastball on the outside corner? I'd rather have JD up with the game on the line.

Has anyone ever seen him go first to third without a ball hitting off the wall? I'm not trying to dog out Paulie, he's a great teammate, awesome with the fans and I would still cheer for him wherever he'd end up at. I'm just saying that were putting way to much stock into him being able to "pick it" at first. Martinez and Piazza struggled at first because they were catchers moving over to first. Any MLB infielder, especially a 3B, should adjust to first without any problems.

If we can improve team speed, OBP, bullpen and overall defense by trading Paulie then "HE GONE".

Oh yeah, I'd still take Shields over Santana for the bullpen. Just because his slider is more effective against left handed hitters.

What's the ceiling for this Aybar kid? Do you guys think he's the real deal or just another "Can't Miss" prospect that will never pan out?

itsnotrequired
11-04-2007, 10:20 AM
Overall, Paulie is one of the worst clutch hitters in the league.

Konerko hit .260 with RISP in 2007. That was good enough for 6th best among first basemen in the AL with at least 130 AB.

In 2006 he hit .366 with RISP, not only best among AL first basemen but third best among all qualified hitters in the AL (Michael Young and Jeter were the only ones higher).

He was 5th best among AL first basemen in 2005.

Please describe the "more-clutch" first baseman you would have replace Konerko if he was traded.

KyWhiSoxFan
11-04-2007, 11:00 AM
Konerko hit .260 with RISP in 2007. That was good enough for 6th best among first basemen in the AL with at least 130 AB.

In 2006 he hit .366 with RISP, not only best among AL first basemen but third best among all qualified hitters in the AL (Michael Young and Jeter were the only ones higher).

He was 5th best among AL first basemen in 2005.

Please describe the "more-clutch" first baseman you would have replace Konerko if he was traded.

With 14 teams, that puts Konerko right in the middle of average for all first basemen in 2007. His numbers in 2005 are also in the middle for all first basemen. For $12-million a year, I would expect more than average. The question is what can you expect from him in 2008: What he did in 2006 or what he did 2005 and 2007? The numbers over three years suggests he is a cut above he average for all first basemen.

Konerko is highly compensated, not just among first basemen but for all players. I personally want and expect more from him for that kind of money.

Madscout
11-04-2007, 11:15 AM
With 14 teams, that puts Konerko right in the middle of average for all first basemen in 2007. His numbers in 2005 are also in the middle for all first basemen. For $12-million a year, I would expect more than average. The question is what can you expect from him in 2008: What he did in 2006 or what he did 2005 and 2007? The numbers over three years suggests he is a cut above he average for all first basemen.

Konerko is highly compensated, not just among first basemen but for all players. I personally want and expect more from him for that kind of money.

So who is better? And more importantly, how exactly can we realistically get them on our baseball team with filling the other holes we have? Do we take care of a question mark and just open another at 1st? We rely on pitching, and so we do not need another defensive question mark. A better offense is not going to get us back into it. Did you see the postseason this year? Pitching and D over and over again.

Soxfest
11-04-2007, 11:20 AM
From MLBtraderumors.com

This thing is gaining traction. Buster Olney today on the idea of a Joe Crede for Johnny Damon swap this morning:

Makes sense in a lot of ways: The Yankees would get the veteran third baseman they need without committing themselves to big dollars, shed Damon's salary, and the White Sox would solve their third base logjam while adding a center fielder for much less than what the free agent center fielders will get (Damon is owed about $26 million over the next two seasons, and presumably, the Yankees would eat some of that to make a deal happen).

Jjav829
11-04-2007, 11:38 AM
This thing is gaining traction. Buster Olney today on the idea of a Joe Crede for Johnny Damon swap this morning:

Makes sense in a lot of ways: The Yankees would get the veteran third baseman they need without committing themselves to big dollars, shed Damon's salary, and the White Sox would solve their third base logjam while adding a center fielder for much less than what the free agent center fielders will get (Damon is owed about $26 million over the next two seasons, and presumably, the Yankees would eat some of that to make a deal happen).

It's a deal that really makes a lot of sense for both teams. The Yankees need a 3B and are fine in the OF with Matsui-Cabrera-Abreu. The Sox need a leadoff hitter, have two open outfield spots, and have a young 3B waiting who showed signs of being a productive major league hitter last season.

If you're Kenny, and you can get the Yankees to pick up a few million on Damon's contract, it's a pretty nice move. We can put Damon in left, Fields at 3B, and then go chase that good defensive centerfielder, be it Hunter or Rowand.

oeo
11-04-2007, 11:40 AM
We're soon going to be the San Francisco Giants. :(:

drewcifer
11-04-2007, 11:45 AM
It's a deal that really makes a lot of sense for both teams. The Yankees need a 3B and are fine in the OF with Matsui-Cabrera-Abreu. The Sox need a leadoff hitter, have two open outfield spots, and have a young 3B waiting who showed signs of being a productive major league hitter last season.

If you're Kenny, and you can get the Yankees to pick up a few million on Damon's contract, it's a pretty nice move. We can put Damon in left, Fields at 3B, and then go chase that good defensive centerfielder, be it Hunter or Rowand.

The only problem is Damon's health. We've been dealing with an unhealthy 30-something LFer for 2 years now. Damon is definitely an upgrade in the hitting dept. over Pods, but he's not as fast and probably about as good defensively. If he doesn't stay healthy (which last year suggests), the move does nothing for us.

I really don't like it.

oeo
11-04-2007, 11:48 AM
The only problem is Damon's health. We've been dealing with an unhealthy 30-something LFer for 2 years now. Damon is definitely an upgrade in the hitting dept. over Pods, but he's not as fast and probably about as good defensively. If he doesn't stay healthy (which last year suggests), the move does nothing for us.

I really don't like it.

Me neither...in fact, it's a terrible idea. An outfield of Damon, Hunter, and Dye is risky business; that's just a catastrophe waiting to happen.

I'd rather keep Crede, and put Fields in left.

drewcifer
11-04-2007, 11:49 AM
Me neither...in fact, it's a terrible idea. An outfield of Damon, Hunter, and Dye is risky business; that's just a catastrophe waiting to happen.

I'd rather keep Crede and Fields.

Me too. If Damon is the best we can get for Crede, I'd much rather see him extended and get to work on Fields in left.

JermaineDye05
11-04-2007, 12:11 PM
Me too. If Damon is the best we can get for Crede, I'd much rather see him extended and get to work on Fields in left.

You guys would much rather have Josh Fields in left field, a guy who's played pretty much his entire career at 3rd with exception to about a month in left field. Over a guy who's been an outfielder for his entire career who's also a lead off hitter with a career .353 OBP, who also averages about 20-30 sb a year. Josh Fields is a 3rd baseman and has shown signs at times at being pretty damn good, yes he's had a couple of real bad plays but playing him at 3rd every day will just help him to get better, playing him in left just hurts his chances and hurts this teams defense. This trade makes a lot of sense IMO, especially if the yanks decide to throw in a reliever.

kevin57
11-04-2007, 12:11 PM
With 14 teams, that puts Konerko right in the middle of average for all first basemen in 2007. His numbers in 2005 are also in the middle for all first basemen. For $12-million a year, I would expect more than average. The question is what can you expect from him in 2008: What he did in 2006 or what he did 2005 and 2007? The numbers over three years suggests he is a cut above he average for all first basemen.

Konerko is highly compensated, not just among first basemen but for all players. I personally want and expect more from him for that kind of money.

The most frustrating thing about Konerko is how streaky he is. He's had months of "slumps." In fact, he's had a couple of years where he never really did hit his stride.

California Sox
11-04-2007, 12:12 PM
I agree. Damon has tons of mileage on him. The toll taken by guys who steal bases and run down balls in center is huge. We'd take an aging team and make it older and more injury-prone. Also, we'd be adding salary. I don't see how this makes sense at all.

I'm not a fan of the all-cast-off-from-other-teams model of building a winner. As people pointed out higher in the thread, that's the Giants. Sometimes it works, but even then, to me they wouldn't feel like Sox players.

DumpJerry
11-04-2007, 12:17 PM
When Kenny makes a deal it's usually ahead of the curve. I wanna say the Garcia deal was one of the first of the winter meetings? And Thome came around Thanksgiving. And if it's in season, it's usually at least a week before the deadline
Loaiza for Contreras occured on Deadline Day, July 31, 2004.

drewcifer
11-04-2007, 12:20 PM
You guys would much rather have Josh Fields in left field, a guy who's played pretty much his entire career at 3rd with exception to about a month in left field. Over a guy who's been an outfielder for his entire career who's also a lead off hitter with a career .353 OBP, who also averages about 20-30 sb a year. Josh Fields is a 3rd baseman and has shown signs at times at being pretty damn good, yes he's had a couple of real bad plays but playing him at 3rd every day will just help him to get better, playing him in left just hurts his chances and hurts this teams defense. This trade makes a lot of sense IMO, especially if the yanks decide to throw in a reliever.

He's getting old, man. 34 already. For Crede, I'd like to think we can do better than that for all the extra $ we'll have to pay Damon. Joe would probably have 2 GGs if he were in either Boston or NY in 05 and 06.

Anyway - I'm not huge on the idea of Fields playing LF, I just hate the idea of Damon.

itsnotrequired
11-04-2007, 12:21 PM
With 14 teams, that puts Konerko right in the middle of average for all first basemen in 2007. His numbers in 2005 are also in the middle for all first basemen. For $12-million a year, I would expect more than average. The question is what can you expect from him in 2008: What he did in 2006 or what he did 2005 and 2007? The numbers over three years suggests he is a cut above he average for all first basemen.

Konerko is highly compensated, not just among first basemen but for all players. I personally want and expect more from him for that kind of money.

My point was that a statement such as "Konerko is the worst clutch hitter in the league" is blatantly false. He is average in the clutch department. What he sacrifices in clutchness and attributes such as stolen bases/speed he makes up for in power. Out of AL first basemen last season, he was second in HRs and third in 2Bs, RBIs and OBP.

Is he worth $12 million? Probably not. He was overpayed for his 2007 performance but was probably underpaid for his 2006 performance.

In terms of being clutch, Sexon hit .187 with RISP last season...and was paid $14 million.

KyWhiSoxFan
11-04-2007, 12:24 PM
If the Sox do a deal of Crede for Damon, I'm going to bid for the Geritol concession in the clubhouse. Maybe the Sox can sign Ricky Henderson, also.

tsamdog
11-04-2007, 12:36 PM
I am certainly not an orthopedic specialist, but my limited experience with those who have experienced back injuries leads me to believe that Crede's mobility will be diminished, perhaps markedly so. If that is the case, where does that put him relative to Josh Fields in defensive capabilities? Who at this time has the highest ceiling, both defensively, offensively and longevity? IMHO taking into account all of the above, if a trade for Crede is possible....I would pull the trigger.

drewcifer
11-04-2007, 12:47 PM
I am certainly not an orthopedic specialist, but my limited experience with those who have experienced back injuries leads me to believe that Crede's mobility will be diminished, perhaps markedly so. If that is the case, where does that put him relative to Josh Fields in defensive capabilities? Who at this time has the highest ceiling, both defensively, offensively and longevity? IMHO taking into account all of the above, if a trade for Crede is possible....I would pull the trigger.

I really don't get why so many people are saying this. The guy has been rehab'ing his back for 3 years. In all that time, the one thing that NEVER suffered was his D. Sure, his bat showed he was dealing with it, but never his glove. And now he's coming back after finally having it corrected.

It's going to suck when we're paying Damon $13M to sit on the bench, and Joe makes the All-Star game playing for NY at 1/2 the price.

JermaineDye05
11-04-2007, 12:50 PM
I really don't get why so many people are saying this. The guy has been rehab'ing his back for 3 years. In all that time, the one thing that NEVER suffered was his D. Sure, his bat showed he was dealing with it, but never his glove. And now he's coming back after finally having it corrected.

It's going to suck when we're paying Damon $13M to sit on the bench, and Joe makes the All-Star game playing for NY at 1/2 the price.

Playing in Chicago, I don't think Joe would ever get on the all-star team. If he were in NY or Boston he would have been on there about 2 or 3 times already.

Sockinchisox
11-04-2007, 12:54 PM
I really don't get why so many people are saying this. The guy has been rehab'ing his back for 3 years. In all that time, the one thing that NEVER suffered was his D. Sure, his bat showed he was dealing with it, but never his glove. And now he's coming back after finally having it corrected.

It's going to suck when we're paying Damon $13M to sit on the bench, and Joe makes the All-Star game playing for NY at 1/2 the price.

Back injuries can never be "corrected", they always flare up again.

Brian26
11-04-2007, 01:23 PM
Playing in Chicago, I don't think Joe would ever get on the all-star team. If he were in NY or Boston he would have been on there about 2 or 3 times already.

How can you say this when Chicago single-handidly voted Pods and AJ onto the All-Star game in '05 and '06, respectively, over east coast trash like Jeter?

JermaineDye05
11-04-2007, 01:28 PM
How can you say this when Chicago single-handidly voted Pods and AJ onto the All-Star game in '05 and '06, respectively, over east coast trash like Jeter?

I believe each of those years the yanks had 2 players on the final ballot in which NY fans split the vote.

Brian26
11-04-2007, 01:29 PM
I believe each of those years the yanks had 2 players on the final ballot in which NY fans split the vote.

Bologna.

itsnotrequired
11-04-2007, 01:33 PM
Bologna.

Jeter and Matsui were both on the "final man" ballot in 2005.

As an aside, Konerko and Thomas split the vote in 2004 when Matsui got the last spot.

Domeshot17
11-04-2007, 01:42 PM
When has Joe Crede had an ALL STAR YEAR?

The only year he has even come close to being All Star worthy his manager LEFT HIM OFF, saying he was good but there are better AL 3b. You want to argue gold glove, fine, we all know that is a bogus award (a hack like Sandberg won it how many times). But don't give me this Joe Crede is such a stud and is the most under rated player in the game BS. He is good. His D is awesome. He has never had 1 consistent offensive year. He was fantastic in the post season and really clutch, the next year he hit .175 or something in that area during september and october as we fizzled out of the playoff picture.

Joe Crede for most of his career has been Brian Anderson, a clueless at the plate hitter who kept his job with his glove. Yes it all came together, and yes this surgery came at the worst time. The truth is there is a reason surgery was a last resort option for him. It sucks, back surgery is tough. I know you don't think it can hinder his fielding, but even bending at the waist involves alot of back and lower lumbar stuff, all of which Joe is going to have to get used too.

Brian26
11-04-2007, 01:44 PM
Jeter and Matsui were both on the "final man" ballot in 2005.

What happened in 2006? He said both years.

itsnotrequired
11-04-2007, 01:50 PM
When has Joe Crede had an ALL STAR YEAR?

The only year he has even come close to being All Star worthy his manager LEFT HIM OFF, saying he was good but there are better AL 3b. You want to argue gold glove, fine, we all know that is a bogus award (a hack like Sandberg won it how many times). But don't give me this Joe Crede is such a stud and is the most under rated player in the game BS. He is good. His D is awesome. He has never had 1 consistent offensive year. He was fantastic in the post season and really clutch, the next year he hit .175 or something in that area during september and october as we fizzled out of the playoff picture.

Joe Crede for most of his career has been Brian Anderson, a clueless at the plate hitter who kept his job with his glove. Yes it all came together, and yes this surgery came at the worst time. The truth is there is a reason surgery was a last resort option for him. It sucks, back surgery is tough. I know you don't think it can hinder his fielding, but even bending at the waist involves alot of back and lower lumbar stuff, all of which Joe is going to have to get used too.

Gimmie a break. Compared to other third basemen in the AL, Crede is in the middle of the pack from an offensive standpoint. He is top 3 from a defensive standpoint.

Comparing him to Brian Anderson is goofy.

oeo
11-04-2007, 01:50 PM
Joe Crede for most of his career has been Brian Anderson, a clueless at the plate hitter who kept his job with his glove. Yes it all came together, and yes this surgery came at the worst time. The truth is there is a reason surgery was a last resort option for him. It sucks, back surgery is tough. I know you don't think it can hinder his fielding, but even bending at the waist involves alot of back and lower lumbar stuff, all of which Joe is going to have to get used too.

Crede has never been Brian Anderson...what a terrible comparison.

Come talk to me when Anderson can hit .260, hit with RISP, hit in the clutch, not K like a mad man, hit for power...should I go on?

itsnotrequired
11-04-2007, 01:51 PM
What happened in 2006? He said both years.

I was talking about my rug.

Brian26
11-04-2007, 01:53 PM
I was talking about my rug.

Outer space vote tallies don't count.

drewcifer
11-04-2007, 01:55 PM
Joe Crede for most of his career has been Brian Anderson, a clueless at the plate hitter who kept his job with his glove.

I get what you're saying, but this is a stretch. Brian Anderson has given no indication that he'll ever be capable of hitting over .265 and striking out over walking at a rate of better than 3:1.

Joe is a far better hitter than that.

*Edit - Curses, foiled by oeo again.

jabrch
11-04-2007, 01:58 PM
I get what you're saying, but this is a stretch. Brian Anderson has given no indication that he'll ever be capable of hitting over .265 and striking out over walking at a rate of better than 3:1.

It's not "a stretch"

It is ridiculous nonsense.

MetroPD
11-04-2007, 01:59 PM
I really don't get why so many people are saying this. The guy has been rehab'ing his back for 3 years. In all that time, the one thing that NEVER suffered was his D. Sure, his bat showed he was dealing with it, but never his glove. And now he's coming back after finally having it corrected.
History. Look at every single player that has suffered from back problems. No matter how good he once was, he will never be as good again and with age will only get worse.

drewcifer
11-04-2007, 02:07 PM
History. Look at every single player that has suffered from back problems. No matter how good he once was, he will never be as good again and with age will only get worse.

I guess we'll see. As I already said, his defense is his value and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone better in the AL (even when not healthy). If he plays 150 games, and we lose him for Johnny Damon and an extra $8M in payroll, we lose. NY does not even consider him an everyday player at this point.

KRS1
11-04-2007, 02:29 PM
History. Look at every single player that has suffered from back problems. No matter how good he once was, he will never be as good again and with age will only get worse.

Yeah, Vladdy Guerrero sucks since he got diagnosed with a herniated disk.

Domeshot17
11-04-2007, 02:38 PM
ok, I will admit Anderson was a stretch, my point was Joe was Widly inconsistent and never got on base above a .311 clip until 2006. He showed better power than BA, maybe Uribe would have been a better comparison although I freaking hate Uribe and actually like Crede a lot. (although don't argue K:BB, Crede is also a 3:1 strike out to walk hitter)

My point was Joe before 2006 was a 255 hitter with roughly a 302 obp who gave you 20 homers and 70 rbi and great D. He was always alright, never an all star. Even with 2006 factored in he averages out at 259 303 25 85, Good, not great.

I would say he is middle of the pack overall with 3b. Hes probably on the third tier offensively and first defensively. Hes not an elite hitter like Arod-Wright-Cabrera-Chipper, not in the 2nd group of guys like Aramis-Atkins-Lowell-Glaus (who yah is an HGH cheater apparently)-he seems to fall offensively into the 3rd tier of guys and just ahead of the fourth tier which is a Brandon Inge type player.

Yes, hes a hell of a hitter in the clutch, he carried us in the post season. I will even go as far to say as his 175 average when we needed him in 2006 could have been 90-100% all because of his back.

And again, he is one of the best defensive 3b in the game with Chavez and co. I know we hate on Chavez because he is Joes main gold glove rival, but they are both damn fine 3b. Chavez is very over rated offensively as well.

To me that makes Joe outside of the first tier of 3b and looking like a bottom of the 2nd tier top of the 3rd type 3b. Is there maybe 8-10 3b I would take over him, yah, but would I ever feel bad about having him at 3b? Not at all.

He still has the potential to get into the middle of that 2nd tier. If Mike Lowell can revive his career in his 30s, why can't Crede and a repaired back do so in his late 20s.

Im not even saying I love the Damon for Crede swap unless NY is eating half of his salary. But the truth is, we have a viable 3b who will get better defensively with age as he adjusts to the speed of the game and has more offensive potential than Crede, and might be on Crede's level right now. If can move Crede, as tough as it is, and get a lead off man who can get on base at a .350 clip like Damon and be a spark plug, we have to consider it. I trust Kenny to not make a move for a guy who isn't healthy.

ALLLLL that said, I still don't consider Crede an all star. Hes good, but he isn't worth a deal for guys like Joba or Hughes. Maybe he is worth Melky over Damon, but Melky also isn't a lead off guy. He doesn't get on base at a .350 clip and won't steal 25-30 bases.

This is why I like Fields potential

he was 10th in mlb 3b in homers in about 3/5 the at bats. If he got 500 at bats, which still is about 50 short of the usual starting 3b, we are looking at .244 30 91 with a .308 obp and almost an 800 ops FROM A ROOKIE. that becomes 33-100 if he gets 550 abs AND THAT IS OUT OF THE 2 HOLE!!!!

Can you imagine a 100 rbi 2 hitter??! what if he was hitting 3-4-5, what if he had Johnny Damon and his 350 obp in front of him and not Owens and his 298. Do you see what Im saying, its a move that sucks because we lose our fan favorite, our rock star, and one of the top 3 defensive 3b in the game, but we may actually come out of this a better team.

Daver
11-04-2007, 02:43 PM
Fields will never be the defensive third baseman that Joe Crede is now.

And trading anything to the Yankees for Damon, even if they paid his entire salary, is a bad joke.

drewcifer
11-04-2007, 02:46 PM
ok, I will admit Anderson was a stretch, my point was Joe was Widly inconsistent and never got on base above a .311 clip until 2006. He showed better power than BA, maybe Uribe would have been a better comparison although I freaking hate Uribe and actually like Crede a lot. (although don't argue K:BB, Crede is also a 3:1 strike out to walk hitter)

My point was Joe before 2006 was a 255 hitter with roughly a 302 obp who gave you 20 homers and 70 rbi and great D. He was always alright, never an all star. Even with 2006 factored in he averages out at 259 303 25 85, Good, not great.

I would say he is middle of the pack overall with 3b. Hes probably on the third tier offensively and first defensively. Hes not an elite hitter like Arod-Wright-Cabrera-Chipper, not in the 2nd group of guys like Aramis-Atkins-Lowell-Glaus (who yah is an HGH cheater apparently)-he seems to fall offensively into the 3rd tier of guys and just ahead of the fourth tier which is a Brandon Inge type player.

Yes, hes a hell of a hitter in the clutch, he carried us in the post season. I will even go as far to say as his 175 average when we needed him in 2006 could have been 90-100% all because of his back.

And again, he is one of the best defensive 3b in the game with Chavez and co. I know we hate on Chavez because he is Joes main gold glove rival, but they are both damn fine 3b. Chavez is very over rated offensively as well.

To me that makes Joe outside of the first tier of 3b and looking like a bottom of the 2nd tier top of the 3rd type 3b. Is there maybe 8-10 3b I would take over him, yah, but would I ever feel bad about having him at 3b? Not at all.

He still has the potential to get into the middle of that 2nd tier. If Mike Lowell can revive his career in his 30s, why can't Crede and a repaired back do so in his late 20s.

Im not even saying I love the Damon for Crede swap unless NY is eating half of his salary. But the truth is, we have a viable 3b who will get better defensively with age as he adjusts to the speed of the game and has more offensive potential than Crede, and might be on Crede's level right now. If can move Crede, as tough as it is, and get a lead off man who can get on base at a .350 clip like Damon and be a spark plug, we have to consider it. I trust Kenny to not make a move for a guy who isn't healthy.

ALLLLL that said, I still don't consider Crede an all star. Hes good, but he isn't worth a deal for guys like Joba or Hughes. Maybe he is worth Melky over Damon, but Melky also isn't a lead off guy. He doesn't get on base at a .350 clip and won't steal 25-30 bases.

This is why I like Fields potential

he was 10th in mlb 3b in homers in about 3/5 the at bats. If he got 500 at bats, which still is about 50 short of the usual starting 3b, we are looking at .244 30 91 with a .308 obp and almost an 800 ops FROM A ROOKIE. that becomes 33-100 if he gets 550 abs AND THAT IS OUT OF THE 2 HOLE!!!!

Can you imagine a 100 rbi 2 hitter??! what if he was hitting 3-4-5, what if he had Johnny Damon and his 350 obp in front of him and not Owens and his 298. Do you see what Im saying, its a move that sucks because we lose our fan favorite, our rock star, and one of the top 3 defensive 3b in the game, but we may actually come out of this a better team.

No. Johnny Damon makes us worse. He's got an arm like a wet noodle. He's not even fast. He's thirty-****ing-four years old. And he limits our options with his cost. There is NO REASON to trade Joe Crede for Johnny Damon. I don't care about his career OBP, he's in decline and he's a way overpriced injury risk.

KRS1
11-04-2007, 02:53 PM
Fields will never be the defensive third baseman that Joe Crede is now.

And trading anything to the Yankees for Damon, even if they paid his entire salary, is a bad joke.

I also, really really don't want Johnny Damon in a Sox uniform.

drewcifer
11-04-2007, 02:55 PM
I also, really really don't want Johnny Damon in a Sox uniform.

Re-sign Pods for 2 years at $7M and put him in CF - you'd be getting the same thing. It's a dumb deal, period.

Frater Perdurabo
11-04-2007, 02:57 PM
Loaiza for Contreras occured on Deadline Day, July 31, 2004.

Yes, but that was a deal made to improve the Sox in 2005, not 2004. KW was WAY ahead of the curve on that one! :tongue:

Domeshot17
11-04-2007, 03:12 PM
Re-sign Pods for 2 years at $7M and put him in CF - you'd be getting the same thing. It's a dumb deal, period.

You're kidding right. Obviously you don't know what a lead off man should be if you don't care about his OBP. I bet you like Jerry Owens don't you. Who cares if he never is on base if when he is he can steal a base WAHOO!!!!!

But you can't be serious. I guess I don't understand the knock on Damon being too injury prone. He has played in 140 games since 1996 every year. During that period, hes never hit below 270, had a career 353 OBP with a 785 OPS. hes scored over 100 runs 9 times, knocks in about 60 a year, and has shown a fair amount of power. Yes, he does not steal at a pods or owens clip, but hes still been an amazing lead off man, one of the best if not thee best in the game.

Give me he is too old, give me his average is now closer to 270 and now 315. Give me he has lost a step and is only a 25-30 sb threat and not a 40. Hell give me he makes too much even if the Yankees pay him down to 7 a year and not 13.

But comparing Damon to Pods is worse than my comparison of Crede to Anderson, and atleast I had the guts to admit I was wrong about that and say the difference was bigger than I thought originally.

SBSoxFan
11-04-2007, 03:13 PM
Re-sign Pods for 2 years at $7M and put him in CF - you'd be getting the same thing. It's a dumb deal, period.

It's highly doubtful Damon would play CF. However, the third base log jam remains. For those of you who hate the idea of Crede for Damon, and I have to count myself among them, how do you fix this? Let's assume Crede can only be traded in the offseason. If they try to showcase him during spring training, and he gets hurt then there's no market for him. If he's fine, you probably don't want to trade him anyway. Some scenarios:

1) Crede isn't traded and stays healthy all year. Fields in LF, free agent in CF, who leads off?

2) Crede isn't traded and he gets hurt. You move Fields back to 3B, free agent in CF, who gets moved to LF?

3) Crede is traded for Damon. Fields at 3B, Damon in LF and leads off, free agent in CF.

Of those three scenarios, #3 probably makes the most sense in the short term. Of course, if Damon were to get hurt, you'd likely fall back on #2 and be out the additional money of Damon's salary over Crede's.

tough, tough decisions, IMO

Much of this seems to revolve around making room for Fields. Here's a crazy idea (Why do I feel like I'm channeling Frater?). What if you were able to sign Hunter and Rowand, trade Thome, and find a SS who can lead off? Then you can work Fields, Crede, and possibly Dye (if Rowand can play RF) in the DH.

If the Sox can't find a SS who can lead off, then your lead off man has to come from LF. Who should it be, Damon, Owens, Pods?

itsnotrequired
11-04-2007, 03:23 PM
You're kidding right. Obviously you don't know what a lead off man should be if you don't care about his OBP. I bet you like Jerry Owens don't you. Who cares if he never is on base if when he is he can steal a base WAHOO!!!!!

But you can't be serious. I guess I don't understand the knock on Damon being too injury prone. He has played in 140 games since 1996 every year. During that period, hes never hit below 270, had a career 353 OBP with a 785 OPS. hes scored over 100 runs 9 times, knocks in about 60 a year, and has shown a fair amount of power. Yes, he does not steal at a pods or owens clip, but hes still been an amazing lead off man, one of the best if not thee best in the game.

Give me he is too old, give me his average is now closer to 270 and now 315. Give me he has lost a step and is only a 25-30 sb threat and not a 40. Hell give me he makes too much even if the Yankees pay him down to 7 a year and not 13.

But comparing Damon to Pods is worse than my comparison of Crede to Anderson, and atleast I had the guts to admit I was wrong about that and say the difference was bigger than I thought originally.

Damon's OBP has fallen every year for the last three seasons. His average has gone down each year for the last two seasons. Hits, runs, doubles, etc. have all been falling over the past two to four seasons. Yeah, yeah, past performance is no guarantee of future returns but it wouldn't be unexpected to see those numbers dip again in 2008.

Owens, on the other hand, was getting better as the season went on. K-BB ratio decreased, AVE, OBP and SLG overall increased. But of course, there is no guarantee that he will keep those numbers up in 2008 either.

But Owens costs nothing, Damon is getting $13 million. The Yankees would have to pay a lot more than half his salary to make a trade worth it, especially if that guy traded is Crede.

Domeshot17
11-04-2007, 03:31 PM
Damon's OBP has fallen every year for the last three seasons. His average has gone down each year for the last two seasons. Hits, runs, doubles, etc. have all been falling over the past two to four seasons. Yeah, yeah, past performance is no guarantee of future returns but it wouldn't be unexpected to see those numbers dip again in 2008.

Owens, on the other hand, was getting better as the season went on. K-BB ratio decreased, AVE, OBP and SLG overall increased. But of course, there is no guarantee that he will keep those numbers up in 2008 either.

But Owens costs nothing, Damon is getting $13 million. The Yankees would have to pay a lot more than half his salary to make a trade worth it, especially if that guy traded is Crede.

INR, thank you, that is very fair. My point was Damon today > Pods ever. Like I said, I will buy into all of those arguements. But saying Pods can do the same thing seems stupid to me.

drewcifer
11-04-2007, 03:31 PM
You're kidding right. Obviously you don't know what a lead off man should be if you don't care about his OBP. I bet you like Jerry Owens don't you. Who cares if he never is on base if when he is he can steal a base WAHOO!!!!!

But you can't be serious. I guess I don't understand the knock on Damon being too injury prone. He has played in 140 games since 1996 every year. During that period, hes never hit below 270, had a career 353 OBP with a 785 OPS. hes scored over 100 runs 9 times, knocks in about 60 a year, and has shown a fair amount of power. Yes, he does not steal at a pods or owens clip, but hes still been an amazing lead off man, one of the best if not thee best in the game.

Give me he is too old, give me his average is now closer to 270 and now 315. Give me he has lost a step and is only a 25-30 sb threat and not a 40. Hell give me he makes too much even if the Yankees pay him down to 7 a year and not 13.

But comparing Damon to Pods is worse than my comparison of Crede to Anderson, and atleast I had the guts to admit I was wrong about that and say the difference was bigger than I thought originally.

I gave you all of those. Resigning Pods is stupid. That was the point. So is trading Crede for Damon.

itsnotrequired
11-04-2007, 03:33 PM
INR, thank you, that is very fair. My point was Damon today > Pods ever. Like I said, I will buy into all of those arguements. But saying Pods can do the same thing seems stupid to me.

That being said, Owens is not the answer to the leadoff position.

A. Cavatica
11-04-2007, 04:55 PM
If we did get Damon, wouldn't it be the third time he and Dye had played together in the outfield (KC, Oak)?

I don't think Damon's a solution, but I also don't think we're going to get more for Crede. Damon's hurt, but so is Crede, and one would be foolish to expect a healthy season from either player. Damon has weaknesses (throwing) but so does Crede (OBP). It's not an unbalanced deal (assuming NY balances out the salaries) but it doesn't bring us much closer to respectability, either.

drewcifer
11-04-2007, 05:02 PM
If we did get Damon, wouldn't it be the third time he and Dye had played together in the outfield (KC, Oak)?

I don't think Damon's a solution, but I also don't think we're going to get more for Crede. Damon's hurt, but so is Crede, and one would be foolish to expect a healthy season from either player. Damon has weaknesses (throwing) but so does Crede (OBP). It's not an unbalanced deal (assuming NY balances out the salaries) but it doesn't bring us much closer to respectability, either.

Right. So there's no reason to do the deal.

Sockinchisox
11-04-2007, 05:06 PM
INR, thank you, that is very fair. My point was Damon today > Pods ever. Like I said, I will buy into all of those arguements. But saying Pods can do the same thing seems stupid to me.

It's really a moot point, but Pods is a singles hitter just like Owens is, Damon at least has gap power and can put 10-18 over the fence.

KyWhiSoxFan
11-04-2007, 05:15 PM
If the Sox are going for a leadoff hitter from the Yankees, I want Robinson Cano. Anything less than that is not worth considering. The Sox don't need any more aging outfielders. Cano fills a big gap at second and the top of the order. I would give up Garland for Cano.

drewcifer
11-04-2007, 05:19 PM
It's really a moot point, but Pods is a singles hitter just like Owens is, Damon at least has gap power and can put 10-18 over the fence.

I know I'm hawking this thread, and I hope it's not pissing people off. But I know what I'm talking about, here. I moved here (NY) almost 6 years ago now, and I see the Yankees everyday, listen to the radio, the fans, etc. Joe Crede, to them, is a fleecing if they can dump Damon. The only reason Damon is even in NY was about changing momentum and a pissing match with Boston after '04.

Damon is old. He is in decline. He isn't worth $5M, let alone $13M. I'm going to bow out of this thread leaving it at what I've said. I'm really against any deal with NY that involves Crede for Damon.

*Edit - The Yankees won't give up Cano. They seriously project him to win the Silver Slugger one of these years.

oeo
11-04-2007, 05:34 PM
I know I'm hawking this thread, and I hope it's not pissing people off. But I know what I'm talking about, here. I moved here (NY) almost 6 years ago now, and I see the Yankees everyday, listen to the radio, the fans, etc. Joe Crede, to them, is a fleecing if they can dump Damon. The only reason Damon is even in NY was about changing momentum and a pissing match with Boston after '04.

Damon is old. He is in decline. He isn't worth $5M, let alone $13M. I'm going to bow out of this thread leaving it at what I've said. I'm really against any deal with NY that involves Crede for Damon.

Go check out nyyfans.com. They're all saying they should get more for Damon. Most don't even want him dealt; they want him in LF and leading off next year (moving Matsui to DH and benching Giambi's ass).

dickallen15
11-04-2007, 05:36 PM
If we did get Damon, wouldn't it be the third time he and Dye had played together in the outfield (KC, Oak)?

I don't think Damon's a solution, but I also don't think we're going to get more for Crede. Damon's hurt, but so is Crede, and one would be foolish to expect a healthy season from either player. Damon has weaknesses (throwing) but so does Crede (OBP). It's not an unbalanced deal (assuming NY balances out the salaries) but it doesn't bring us much closer to respectability, either.

He was hurt at the beginning of the year. After the all star break he hit .296 with a .370 OBP and an OPS over 800. Considering you don't know what you have with Crede and his back, considering how much Kenny Williams loves Fields, and how there really is no way Fields can be a regular LF in the major leagues without a ton of work, and even then its a question mark, and the White Sox scrapped plans for him to work on the position in the winter, and considering Crede is represented by Boras so 2008 would most likely be his last as a White Sox good or bad, if the Yankees pick up part of Damon's contract, I think Williams would make the deal.

drewcifer
11-04-2007, 05:57 PM
Go check out nyyfans.com. They're all saying they should get more for Damon. Most don't even want him dealt; they want him in LF and leading off next year (moving Matsui to DH and benching Giambi's ass).

I would want him playing LF field too (and leading off), for what he's being paid.

This trade is NOT a good fit. I don't know why people think it is.

oeo
11-04-2007, 05:59 PM
I would want him playing LF field too (and leading off), for what he's being paid.

This trade is NOT a good fit. I don't know why people think it is.

That's not what I was talking about. You said that Yankee fans think getting Crede for Damon would be a fleecing, and it's not true. They want more than just Crede...most don't even want him gone.

drewcifer
11-04-2007, 06:03 PM
That's not what I was talking about. You said that Yankee fans think getting Crede for Damon would be a fleecing, and it's not true. They want more than just Crede...most don't even want him gone.

That's insane. No way Kenny gives them Crede and more, for a $26M, injury prone, 34 year old noodle arm, who can't steal and hits lead because of a not yet in the toilet OBP. No way.

itsnotrequired
11-04-2007, 06:10 PM
That's not what I was talking about. You said that Yankee fans think getting Crede for Damon would be a fleecing, and it's not true. They want more than just Crede...most don't even want him gone.

What the fans want and what management wants are typically not the same thing.

That's insane. No way Kenny gives them Crede and more, for a $26M, injury prone, 34 year old noodle arm, who can't steal and hits lead because of a not yet in the toilet OBP. No way.

Agreed. KW will go elsewhere if he is still shopping Crede.

Tragg
11-04-2007, 06:53 PM
From MLBtraderumors.com

This thing is gaining traction. Buster Olney today on the idea of a Joe Crede for Johnny Damon swap this morning:

Makes sense in a lot of ways: The Yankees would get the veteran third baseman they need without committing themselves to big dollars, shed Damon's salary, and the White Sox would solve their third base logjam while adding a center fielder for much less than what the free agent center fielders will get (Damon is owed about $26 million over the next two seasons, and presumably, the Yankees would eat some of that to make a deal happen).
I read this as yankee fan olney thinks its a good idea, but nothing about whether the Sox think it's a good idea.
If we do this, we get a good hitter who should play left. Maybe that's the idea - sign one of the FA CFs.

Paulwny
11-04-2007, 07:01 PM
It would be interesting to know who initiated the trade talk. Did KW call Casman or did Cahman call KW.

Daver
11-04-2007, 07:12 PM
It would be interesting to know who initiated the trade talk. Did KW call Casman or did Cahman call KW.

What GM in his right mind initiates a trade discussion for a player who's health is unknown?

oeo
11-04-2007, 07:23 PM
What the fans want and what management wants are typically not the same thing.

That has nothing to do with our discussion. He said the fans, media, etc. thought Crede-for-Damon would be a fleecing for the Yankees. That's not the case; not even close.

Paulwny
11-04-2007, 07:30 PM
What GM in his right mind initiates a trade discussion for a player who's health is unknown?


If you're correct then it's obvious that KW is shopping Crede.

Daver
11-04-2007, 07:32 PM
If you're correct then it's obvious that KW is shopping Crede.


Or that Buster Olney is making things up to have something to say.

Paulwny
11-04-2007, 07:40 PM
Or that Buster Olney is making things up to have something to say.

The sox/yank dicussion about Crede was also reported by Bill Madden and Mark Fiensan-- NY Daily News.

drewcifer
11-04-2007, 07:42 PM
That has nothing to do with our discussion. He said the fans, media, etc. thought Crede-for-Damon would be a fleecing for the Yankees. That's not the case; not even close.

Yes, it is. The buzz here, is that "we'll just trade for Crede, if he doesn't work out we still got Betemit.. We still dump the $".

That is EXACTLY the case.

Why would you want Johnny Damon? Because he played for the Yankees and Boston? You're taking him on for big $ that is THEIR pissing match game, not ours. He's still not as good as Granderson or Sizemore. We've got to compete with those guys.

So tell me why in the blue hell we should pay him more? You started off sounding against it, now you sound like you want him. Why? Why would you want Johnny Damon to play for the Chicago White Sox?

Daver
11-04-2007, 07:43 PM
The sox/yank dicussion about Crede was also reported by Bill Madden and Mark Fiensan-- NY Daily News.

That means nothing really, we have traced bogus trade rumors that started on these very forums as speculation.

Paulwny
11-04-2007, 07:58 PM
That means nothing really, we have traced bogus trade rumors that started on these very forums as speculation.

Agree, however when this appears in the article, "Regarding A-Rod's old spot, the Yankees and White Sox have had preliminary discussions about Joe Crede, a righthanded-hitting third baseman coming off back surgery", it sure seems more than speculation.
They never mentioned who the yanks would trade or if there was to be a trade, only that there were "discussions".

Rockabilly
11-04-2007, 08:37 PM
lets just say Crede is traded for Damon and we dont sign a CF who plays LF than...

munchman33
11-04-2007, 09:12 PM
That means nothing really, we have traced bogus trade rumors that started on these very forums as speculation.

Well, Kenny and Cashman happen to be friends. Cashman needs a 3B. Kenny has two of them. It'd be a rather fair assumption by anyone that the two have at the very least had a discussion about it. I don't care what source it came from. It's what we all expect should be happening. Let's talk about it.

I for one am not against the idea of Damon. But only if the Yankees pay most of his salary. And only if he's in LF.

A. Cavatica
11-04-2007, 09:26 PM
Let's just say Crede is traded for Damon, and we don't sign a CF. Who plays LF then?

Fixed it for you.

chisoxmike
11-04-2007, 09:28 PM
This is pretty funny thread on NYY Fans.com on the so called Damon for Crede talks.:rolleyes:

http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=107567
Damon for Crede and Thorton? I would probably still hold off, but definitely warmer.
I would do a Johnny Damon for Faustino De los Santos trade.


Damon makes 13mill. Crede makes $5mill. If they pay all of Damons' salary, its a fair trade.

Grzegorz
11-05-2007, 04:47 AM
Well, Kenny and Cashman happen to be friends. Cashman needs a 3B. Kenny has two of them.

Fields in a third baseman in assignment only. He has a long way to go, and that's assuming he get there through hard work, before he's going to be average defensively.

If Johnny Damon is on the 2008 Chicago White Sox I really have to question what is happening in offices of upper management.

Lillian
11-05-2007, 05:56 AM
Whether you may agree, or disagree with me at times, you guys know that I try to confine my posts to carefully reasoned, and thoughtful arguments and ideas. However, this Damon for Crede rumor elicits an entirely different kind of response: IT SUCKS!!!!!

Let me get this straight. So your telling me that we may end up with a new CF who is 33, and a new Left Fielder who is 35.
Well, I guess that's one way to rebuild; just get so old and bad that you guarantee yourself lots of good draft picks for many years to come.
If we had a realistic shot at another championship this year, this kind of trade might be worth the gamble. However, in this case, such a move would most likely not pay big enough dividends in the short run, and it would be a disaster in the long run.
The Sox already suffer from a very weak farm system, and these kinds of moves don't help. I would much rather see them acquire guys who have long futures.
Please tell me that Damon for Crede is not part of Kenny's plan.

SBSoxFan
11-05-2007, 08:03 AM
He was hurt at the beginning of the year. After the all star break he hit .296 with a .370 OBP and an OPS over 800.

That's interesting. Suppose he starts off slow again, like the Yankees have done for awhile now. Do you think the Sox can withstand that, or will they be buried in June? The Sox need to "hit the gate running."

chitown13
11-05-2007, 08:12 AM
Whether you may agree, or disagree with me at times, you guys know that I try to confine my posts to carefully reasoned, and thoughtful arguments and ideas. However, this Damon for Crede rumor elicits an entirely different kind of response: IT SUCKS!!!!!

Let me get this straight. So your telling me that we may end up with a new CF who is 33, and a new Left Fielder who is 35.
Well, I guess that's one way to rebuild; just get so old and bad that you guarantee yourself lots of good draft picks for many years to come.
If we had a realistic shot at another championship this year, this kind of trade might be worth the gamble. However, in this case, such a move would most likely not pay big enough dividends in the short run, and it would be a disaster in the long run.
The Sox already suffer from a very weak farm system, and these kinds of moves don't help. I would much rather see them acquire guys who have long futures.
Please tell me that Damon for Crede is not part of Kenny's plan.


I see your point, however, Kenny has come out and said we are not rebuilding. He might not have come out and actually said it, but he did with the resigning of Mark and JD. He feels like many of us that last year was a fluke and doesn't feel the need to completely rebuild at this point. If we do get Damon and Hunter and add that with Dye and Thome, we will be a VERY old team in a few years and have to fill those voids then. I just don't see how anyone could complain with a starting outfield in the likes of Damon, Hunter, and Dye when last year we suffered through Pods/fields/whoever you want to throw out there, Owens, and Dye.

If we can go out there with

Damon
Richar
Thome
Konerko
Dye
Hunter
AJ
Fields
Uribe / Hopefully an upgrade

I don't see that team being too bad honestly.

Law11
11-05-2007, 08:17 AM
If we can go out there with

Damon
Richar
Thome
Konerko
Dye
Hunter
AJ
Fields
Uribe / Hopefully an upgrade

I don't see that team being too bad honestly.

I agree with this as well but we still have a god awful bullpen to deal with.

jabrch
11-05-2007, 09:00 AM
If we could get Damon for very cheap (i.e. the Yanks paying a big chunk of his contract), I guess I'd be interested. He's due 13mm a year for the next two years.

Oh - and for you people who believe the Sox won't deal with Boras - Guess who Damon's agent is?

Lillian
11-05-2007, 09:16 AM
If we do get Damon and Hunter and add that with Dye and Thome, we will be a VERY old team in a few years and have to fill those voids then. I just don't see how anyone could complain with a starting outfield in the likes of Damon, Hunter, and Dye when last year we suffered through Pods/fields/whoever you want to throw out there, Owens, and Dye.


Yes, of course, there is nothing wrong with that team for next year. However, as you say "that it is a very old team", and we have very few youngsters in the farm system, who look like they could replace our aging roster.

Why not try to add some youth through a trade? How does it help to trade a guy who is 29, for a soon to be 'has been', who is 35? And then sign a 33 year old F.A.?

chitown13
11-05-2007, 09:39 AM
Yes, of course, there is nothing wrong with that team for next year. However, as you say "that it is a very old team", and we have very few youngsters in the farm system, who look like they could replace our aging roster.

Why not try to add some youth through a trade? How does it help to trade a guy who is 29, for a soon to be 'has been', who is 35? And then sign a 33 year old F.A.?

I agree. Its a bit harder to trade for younger outfields studs that can help us immediately (i.e. Crawford) though as everyone wants these guys and the price will be very high. I'm not saying I necessarily WANT Damon. Just don't really want to see Fields chasing balls in left. Hunter, I for sure want in CF next year. I think he has some good years left in him.

TheVulture
11-05-2007, 09:44 AM
That's insane. No way Kenny gives them Crede and more, for a $26M, injury prone, 34 year old noodle arm, who can't steal and hits lead because of a not yet in the toilet OBP. No way.

Yeah, that 90% SB rate and 12 straight years of 140+ games played is just not good enough.

Compared to the garbage playing LF/CF for the sox last year, I don't see how it can be argued Damon wouldn't improve the team. Whether it would be worth the salary requirement is another matter.

voodoochile
11-05-2007, 09:50 AM
Yeah, that 90% SB rate and 12 straight years of 140+ games played is just not good enough.

Compared to the garbage playing LF/CF for the sox last year, I don't see how it can be argued Damon wouldn't improve the team. Whether it would be worth the salary requirement is another matter.


If the Sox could somehow land either Damon or Crawford (please please please) to lead off, they could afford to play Owens in CF batting 9th.

Obviously I prefer Crawford and think the Sox should offer any or all of the minor league system to get him. Floyd Danks and GiO? No problem. Take your pick of Sweeney and Anderson too. You want all 5? You got it...

palehozenychicty
11-05-2007, 10:01 AM
Can we get Larry Himes back to handle the draft and nothing else? Let Kenny handle the major league roster, and let Himes find guys like Fernandez, Ventura, McDowell, and Mr. Frank Thomas :D:


Seriously. That would be the best thing.

oeo
11-05-2007, 10:10 AM
If the Sox could somehow land either Damon or Crawford (please please please) to lead off, they could afford to play Owens in CF batting 9th.

Just say no to Owens in CF.

chitown13
11-05-2007, 10:13 AM
Just say no to Owens in CF.

I as well would not be satisfied with Owens in CF. He should be our 2008 version of Timo Perez :wink:

ZombieRob
11-05-2007, 11:37 AM
If the Sox could somehow land either Damon or Crawford (please please please) to lead off, they could afford to play Owens in CF batting 9th.

Obviously I prefer Crawford and think the Sox should offer any or all of the minor league system to get him. Floyd Danks and GiO? No problem. Take your pick of Sweeney and Anderson too. You want all 5? You got it...
Do you think Hunter is out of the picture?And what about Mike Lowell as a free agent?Red Sox arn't sure if they will resign him,unless its a smoke screen.Another possibility is Chone Figgins.I know alot are down on him ,but he sure can play alot of positions and play them fairy well .

ZombieRob
11-05-2007, 11:38 AM
I as well would not be satisfied with Owens in CF. He should be our 2008 version of Timo Perez :wink:
I agree .Let him come off the bench.With Gulliens managing styule he will get good at bats with less pressure on him.

Gammons Peter
11-05-2007, 11:44 AM
Johnny Damon and/or Chone Figgins


I'm gonna be sick

munchman33
11-05-2007, 11:50 AM
If the Sox could somehow land either Damon or Crawford (please please please) to lead off, they could afford to play Owens in CF batting 9th.

Obviously I prefer Crawford and think the Sox should offer any or all of the minor league system to get him. Floyd Danks and GiO? No problem. Take your pick of Sweeney and Anderson too. You want all 5? You got it...

I am in 100% agreement with you.

russ99
11-05-2007, 11:54 AM
Johnny Damon and/or Chone Figgins

I'm gonna be sick

Figgins would be a nice replacement for Uribe, getting a leadoff hitter with much less defense as a trade-off. However, the Angels are going to need a lot in return, and I'd rather they get Wood or Aybar for what it's going to cost for Figgins.

We need a much younger player than Damon. if I were Kenny, I'd insist in Cabrera, or look elsewhere for our 2008 LF (with Hunter in CF).

chitown13
11-05-2007, 11:56 AM
Bruce Levine just reported on ESPN that Kenny Williams sat down with TB's GM today about Carl Crawford. As did the Cubs of course, Gotta gets their damn noses in everything we do. Carl Crawford = :praying:

KyWhiSoxFan
11-05-2007, 11:57 AM
If Oh - and for you people who believe the Sox won't deal with Boras - Guess who Damon's agent is?

Who knows if the Damon rumors are true to begin with. Plus, if it were true, Boras would not be a factor because Damon already has several years left on a contract.

Boras would only be a factor if behind the scenes he is trying to land Crede in NY, knowing Crede would be up for free agency at the end of 2008, and a good year in NY would mean he could stick it to the Yankees for a long-term contract next year.

WSox597
11-05-2007, 12:07 PM
Gotta gets their damn noses in everything we do.

In this case, it's because Piniella is the former manager in TB. And he's no idiot, despite choosing to manage the "other team" in town.

He knows what Crawford is capable of, as well as our GM.

Hopefully, KW can strike first.

nevr say dye sox
11-05-2007, 12:08 PM
Here is what Kenny Williams should do!

Pick up Mark Loretta in case Crede goes down. Play Richar at second and Loretta can play there as well. Sign Damien Miller to back up AJ. Trade Konerko and Contreas to Dodger for Andre Either and a young pitching prospect like ( Clayton, Kershaw). Use the cash to sign Hunter. Outfield of Fields, Hunter, Either. Crede/Loretta at 3rd, Sign Eckstein for SS. Put Dye at 1st, AJ behind the dish. Burhle, Garland, Vazquez, Danks, sign Josh Fogg or someone like him. Make a move on the FA market for a set up guy like Letroy Hawkins. And buy your world series tickets early!!!:rolleyes:

chisoxmike
11-05-2007, 12:14 PM
Here is what Kenny Williams should do!

Pick up Mark Loretta in case Crede goes down. Play Richar at second and Loretta can play there as well. Sign Damien Miller to back up AJ. Trade Konerko and Contreas to Dodger for Andre Either and a young pitching prospect like ( Clayton, Kershaw). Use the cash to sign Hunter. Outfield of Fields, Hunter, Either. Crede/Loretta at 3rd, Sign Eckstein for SS. Put Dye at 1st, AJ behind the dish. Burhle, Garland, Vazquez, Danks, sign Josh Fogg or someone like him. Make a move on the FA market for a set up guy like Letroy Hawkins. And buy your world series tickets early!!!:rolleyes:

:nuts:

gregory18n
11-05-2007, 12:56 PM
i'm still dissappointed with the elder's. i mentioned crawford as a desireable and got nothing but lambasted! now Kenny's thinking it & u all jump on the bandwagon, @ any cost. i'm glad ya'ii finally came around. it'll be a nice outfield next year w/ dye/hunter/crawford & owens off the bench. i still feel fields is our other role player. crede's gonna stick with us.

oeo
11-05-2007, 12:59 PM
Figgins would be a nice replacement for Uribe, getting a leadoff hitter with much less defense as a trade-off. However, the Angels are going to need a lot in return, and I'd rather they get Wood or Aybar for what it's going to cost for Figgins.

The Sox should have snagged Figgins last year while he was still on the DL. I know it's hindsight, but I swear I remember a Figgins and Shields for Crede and somebody else deal (this was back in April).

itsnotrequired
11-05-2007, 12:59 PM
i'm still dissappointed with the elder's. i mentioned crawford as a desireable and got nothing but lambasted! now Kenny's thinking it & u all jump on the bandwagon, @ any cost. i'm glad ya'ii finally came around. it'll be a nice outfield next year w/ dye/hunter/crawford & owens off the bench. i still feel fields is our other role player. crede's gonna stick with us.

Every GM in the game wants Crawford. KW isn't going to explode the team to get him.

SBSoxFan
11-05-2007, 01:01 PM
If the Sox could somehow land either Damon or Crawford (please please please) to lead off, they could afford to play Owens in CF batting 9th.

Obviously I prefer Crawford and think the Sox should offer any or all of the minor league system to get him. Floyd Danks and GiO? No problem. Take your pick of Sweeney and Anderson too. You want all 5? You got it...

Who would you rather give up the farm for, Crawford or Hanley Ramirez?

oeo
11-05-2007, 01:02 PM
Who would you rather give up the farm for, Crawford or Hanley Ramirez?

Definitely Hanley Ramirez, but he's not going anywhere.

spiffie
11-05-2007, 01:03 PM
Who would you rather give up the farm for, Crawford or Hanley Ramirez?
There is absolutely no reason on earth to believe Hanley Ramirez is going anywhere. Including him is like saying "who should we trade for, Albert Pujols or Prince Fielder?"

SBSoxFan
11-05-2007, 01:04 PM
Definitely Hanley Ramirez, but he's not going anywhere.

Is Crawford, anymore realistically? Maybe because Crawford, I think, is closer to free agency. Still he doesn't fix enough problems to give up the farm for, in my opinion.

oeo
11-05-2007, 01:15 PM
Is Crawford, anymore realistically? Maybe because Crawford, I think, is closer to free agency. Still he doesn't fix enough problems to give up the farm for, in my opinion.

Yes Crawford is more realistic. He's three years older, and in 2009 has an $8.25 million option, as well as a $10 million option in 2010. Not a lot of money for the player you're getting, but still a lot of money in the Rays' (I hate that name) eyes.

Tragg
11-05-2007, 01:16 PM
Is Crawford, anymore realistically? Maybe because Crawford, I think, is closer to free agency. Still he doesn't fix enough problems to give up the farm for, in my opinion.
Tampa has to do something. They have all this young talent and win 65 games a year because of paper thin pitching.
A few years ago they could have gotten a lot of good young pitchers for Julio Lugo, Aubrey Huff, Toby Hall and Danny Baez. They ridiculously overvalued them; and although they eventually traded a couple of those guys they lost a TON by waiting.
At some point, they have to get into the game and realize that a rotation that consists of 2 legitimate major leaguers and 3 clowns = <70 wins and there's nothing that's going to change that.

jabrch
11-05-2007, 01:54 PM
Who would you rather give up the farm for, Crawford or Hanley Ramirez?


One is realistically available.

The other is flat out not available.

I can't understand why people even talk about acquiring Hanley Ramirez. He is as available to us as Ryan Howard is.

spiffie
11-05-2007, 02:40 PM
One is realistically available.

The other is flat out not available.

I can't understand why people even talk about acquiring Hanley Ramirez. He is as available to us as Ryan Howard is.
Oh I'm sure the Phils would give us Howard for Anderson and Danks!

russ99
11-05-2007, 02:43 PM
Who would you rather give up the farm for, Crawford or Hanley Ramirez?

We don't have a farm to give up!

Still, we do have some decent young pitching.

voodoochile
11-05-2007, 03:34 PM
i'm still dissappointed with the elder's. i mentioned crawford as a desireable and got nothing but lambasted! now Kenny's thinking it & u all jump on the bandwagon, @ any cost. i'm glad ya'ii finally came around. it'll be a nice outfield next year w/ dye/hunter/crawford & owens off the bench. i still feel fields is our other role player. crede's gonna stick with us.

Get over yourself. I've been pushing Crawford for a long time as my top acquisition.

No way they can afford both Crawford and Hunter and other upgrades that are needed, that's why I expect to see Owens in CF batting 9th if the Sox acquire Crawford and I can live with that idea...

Daver
11-05-2007, 03:35 PM
If the Sox could somehow land either Damon or Crawford (please please please) to lead off, they could afford to play Owens in CF batting 9th.


Yeah that's a great idea, have two outfielders with pus arms instead of one.

voodoochile
11-05-2007, 03:41 PM
Yeah that's a great idea, have two outfielders with pus arms instead of one.

Okay, so we'll lose 8 runs all told next season, but if it's Crawford and Owens, the range factor jump all by itself should make up for those 8 runs pretty quickly and having a legitimate leadoff hitter and a guy with leadoff potential and top end speed batting 9th the offense should make them up too.

The best entire OF in the majors next season will have what 40 assists total? If the Sox lose out on half of those, they should still be fine due to the offensive upgrade and increased OF coverage.

Number one priority of any CF player is getting to balls in the gap. Then comes offense. Then comes arm strength. It's not even the most important defensive statistic and by the time you get to the corner spots, offense jumps to number one with range factor second and WAY down the list is arm strength. This isn't SS or catcher we are talking about.

gregory18n
11-05-2007, 03:54 PM
I'de love to get crawford or hunter, but i'll stay greedy & want both!

Daver
11-05-2007, 03:58 PM
Okay, so we'll lose 8 runs all told next season, but if it's Crawford and Owens, the range factor jump all by itself should make up for those 8 runs pretty quickly and having a legitimate leadoff hitter and a guy with leadoff potential and top end speed batting 9th the offense should make them up too.

The best entire OF in the majors next season will have what 40 assists total? If the Sox lose out on half of those, they should still be fine due to the offensive upgrade and increased OF coverage.

Number one priority of any CF player is getting to balls in the gap. Then comes offense. Then comes arm strength. It's not even the most important defensive statistic and by the time you get to the corner spots, offense jumps to number one with range factor second and WAY down the list is arm strength. This isn't SS or catcher we are talking about.

Speed does not equal range.

Jerry Owens is not a good outfielder, nor does he play one on TV.

If you build your team based on the idea that the offense can make up for the lack of defense, you are building a losing team.

voodoochile
11-05-2007, 07:42 PM
Speed does not equal range.

Jerry Owens is not a good outfielder, nor does he play one on TV.

If you build your team based on the idea that the offense can make up for the lack of defense, you are building a losing team.

Well, I'm not sure I agree with your final statement, but we probably will have to agree to disagree. I do think the most important part of defense is the pitching staff and I think we agree on that point.

Owens seemed fine getting to pretty much everything expected and more last year. That was from what I saw watching him play on TV/MLB.TV.

I do agree that being fast is no guarantee of getting to more baseballs. The ability to read the ball off the bat is more important, though being fast can make up for some deficiencies in the reading skills. Having both is obviously a huge plus and is what made Anderson stick out so much when he was playing CF for the Sox, IMO.

I still feel the most important thing the Sox need this off season is a leadoff hitter who can play LF/CF or SS. That's not going to come cheap be that in prospects or salary or both, so if the Sox acquire that player a guy like Owens will have to be playing somewhere.

Daver
11-05-2007, 07:51 PM
Well, I'm not sure I agree with your final statement, but we probably will have to agree to disagree.

Disagree all you want, but that attitude is the main reason the Sox farm system produces few players that can play at the MLB level, because they emphasize hitting over every other aspect of the game, as opposed to producing complete ballplayers.

voodoochile
11-05-2007, 07:55 PM
Disagree all you want, but that attitude is the main reason the Sox farm system produces few players that can play at the MLB level, because they emphasize hitting over every other aspect of the game, as opposed to producing complete ballplayers.

Now we're talking about apples and oranges. I want complete players as much as anyone. Heck, get me 5 tool studs 1-9 in the order, starters with 4 developed pitches and relievers who can get men out from either side of the plate. I'm all for it, but it's unrealistic to assume it's going to happen unless you have a budget like the Yankees. Compromises are going to have to be made. You seem to be willing to compromise offense for defense. I prefer the other way around.

If you can figure out a way not to have to make compromises, I am all for it...:bandance:

munchman33
11-05-2007, 07:55 PM
Disagree all you want, but that attitude is the main reason the Sox farm system produces few players that can play at the MLB level, because they emphasize hitting over every other aspect of the game, as opposed to producing complete ballplayers.

Brian Anderson does everything except hit. That's why he isn't a MLB level player.

Daver
11-05-2007, 08:00 PM
Brian Anderson does everything except hit. That's why he isn't a MLB level player.

He tore the cover off the ball at every minor league level, and was rushed through the minors to boot, because he could hit.

Daver
11-05-2007, 08:02 PM
Now we're talking about apples and oranges. I want complete players as much as anyone. Heck, get me 5 tool studs 1-9 in the order, starters with 4 developed pitches and relievers who can get men out from either side of the plate. I'm all for it, but it's unrealistic to assume it's going to happen unless you have a budget like the Yankees. Compromises are going to have to be made. You seem to be willing to compromise offense for defense. I prefer the other way around.

If you can figure out a way not to have to make compromises, I am all for it...:bandance:

You don't have to be the Yankees to do it, the Twins have been doing it for years.

munchman33
11-05-2007, 08:03 PM
He tore the cover off the ball at every minor league level, and was rushed through the minors to boot, because he could hit.

Funny that that same minor league system that emphasizes hitting like you say it does didn't notice the enormously obvious holes in the kid's swing.

Brian26
11-05-2007, 08:03 PM
Daver-

Give a quick synopsis, in a perfect world, of what your Sox lineup would be next year. I'm not going to assume anything, but I know you're a proponent of keeping Crede mostly because of his glove. Let's say Anderson plays well in the Spring and by some miracle has an opportunity to make the club. I guess the four question marks are 2nd, SS, LF and CF. Curious who you'd like to see there (feel free to speculate on a trade or FA signing).

Daver
11-05-2007, 08:04 PM
Funny that that same minor league system that emphasizes hitting like you say it does didn't notice the enormously obvious holes in the kid's swing.

Have you ever heard the term if it ain't broke don't fix it?

A. Cavatica
11-05-2007, 08:17 PM
Disagree all you want, but that attitude is the main reason the Sox farm system produces few players that can play at the MLB level, because they emphasize hitting over every other aspect of the game, as opposed to producing complete ballplayers.

The system isn't very good at emphasizing hitting, either...

munchman33
11-05-2007, 08:18 PM
Have you ever heard the term if it ain't broke don't fix it?

Haha...aka resting on your laurels?

Guys tear up the minors all the time. Doesn't mean their game will translate. If the Sox minor league instructors were so offense orientated, I would hope they would have at least noticed Brian's flaw. It was glaring.

Daver
11-05-2007, 08:21 PM
Daver-

Give a quick synopsis, in a perfect world, of what your Sox lineup would be next year. I'm not going to assume anything, but I know you're a proponent of keeping Crede mostly because of his glove. Let's say Anderson plays well in the Spring and by some miracle has an opportunity to make the club. I guess the four question marks are 2nd, SS, LF and CF. Curious who you'd like to see there (feel free to speculate on a trade or FA signing).

I'd keep Richar at 2B, I would like to improve at SS, but there ain't much out there, so Uribe will probably be back. I think Fields is destined to misplay flyballs in left to start the season, because Joe Crede won't be non-tendered, and I doubt he gets traded till he can prove he is healthy, and even then I hope he stays, he is going to win his share of gold gloves. Torii Hunter will be the CF.

Daver
11-05-2007, 08:22 PM
The system isn't very good at emphasizing hitting, either...

I never claimed they were.

Daver
11-05-2007, 08:22 PM
Haha...aka resting on your laurels?

Guys tear up the minors all the time. Doesn't mean their game will translate. If the Sox minor league instructors were so offense orientated, I would hope they would have at least noticed Brian's flaw. It was glaring.

Keep hoping.

Brian26
11-05-2007, 08:24 PM
I'd keep Richar at 2B, I would like to improve at SS, but there ain't much out there, so Uribe will probably be back. I think Fields is destined to misplay flyballs in left to start the season, because Joe Crede won't be non-tendered, and I doubt he gets traded till he can prove he is healthy, and even then I hope he stays, he is going to win his share of gold gloves. Torii Hunter will be the CF.

I also think Crede and Uribe return on the left side. I think Fields starts the year in LF. The Sox won't get Hunter (Texas will), so they will settle on Rowand for CF. Eckstein signs to play 2b and leads off (as scary as that sounds).

Eckstein 2b
Rowand CF
Thome DH
Konerko 1B
Dye RF
Pierzynski C
Crede 3B
Fields LF
Uribe SS

Sargeant79
11-05-2007, 08:40 PM
I also think Crede and Uribe return on the left side. I think Fields starts the year in LF. The Sox won't get Hunter (Texas will), so they will settle on Rowand for CF. Eckstein signs to play 2b and leads off (as scary as that sounds).

Eckstein 2b
Rowand CF
Thome DH
Konerko 1B
Dye RF
Pierzynski C
Crede 3B
Fields LF
Uribe SS

If Eckstein is here, Uribe won't be.

DumpJerry
11-05-2007, 09:35 PM
I also think Crede and Uribe return on the left side. I think Fields starts the year in LF. The Sox won't get Hunter (Texas will), so they will settle on Rowand for CF. Eckstein signs to play 2b and leads off (as scary as that sounds).

Eckstein 2b
Rowand CF
Thome DH
Konerko 1B
Dye RF
Pierzynski C
Crede 3B
Fields LF
Uribe SS

If Eckstein is here, Uribe won't be.
I agree with Sargeant. Richar has a bright future at 2nd.

oeo
11-05-2007, 09:36 PM
I also think Crede and Uribe return on the left side. I think Fields starts the year in LF. The Sox won't get Hunter (Texas will), so they will settle on Rowand for CF. Eckstein signs to play 2b and leads off (as scary as that sounds).

Eckstein 2b
Rowand CF
Thome DH
Konerko 1B
Dye RF
Pierzynski C
Crede 3B
Fields LF
Uribe SS

What happens to Richar in all of this? I think he's playing 2B, as well he should. He's going to special, I don't give a **** what the majority of you are thinking. There's definite potential there with his bat. And if they can work on his base stealing technique, he's going to steal a lot of bags too; as well as play solid D.

FedEx227
11-05-2007, 09:41 PM
What happens to Richar in all of this? I think he's playing 2B, as well he should. He's going to special, I don't give a **** what the majority of you are thinking. There's definite potential there with his bat. And if they can work on his base stealing technique, he's going to steal a lot of bags too; as well as play solid D.

I'm on the Richar bandwagon myself. One less hole to fill, IMO. Why people are so gung-ho on replacing him is beyond me.

The Immigrant
11-05-2007, 09:50 PM
Richar has a bright future at 2nd.

Plus, given that the White Sox parted with Aaron Cunningham to get him, there is no way they will give up on Richar this early.

upperdeckusc
11-05-2007, 09:55 PM
Plus, given that the White Sox parted with Aaron Cunningham to get him, there is no way they will give up on Richar this early.

VERY good point. one idea i havent seen thrown around, and im not sure if its plausible, but when we acquired richar i'm pretty sure he was mainly a SS, then got switched to 2b when he got here. any chance to have him play short, cut off uribe, and sign eckstein/castillo to play 2b and leadoff???

oeo
11-05-2007, 10:05 PM
VERY good point. one idea i havent seen thrown around, and im not sure if its plausible, but when we acquired richar i'm pretty sure he was mainly a SS, then got switched to 2b when he got here. any chance to have him play short, cut off uribe, and sign eckstein/castillo to play 2b and leadoff???

No, he was moved to SS I believe in 2005, or 2006 at the latest. He has poor throwing mechanics, and was racking up the errors, which is why he was moved. He does have the arm to play short, if he could ever learn to not throw everything flat-footed (which I believe is what his problem was).

thomas35forever
11-05-2007, 10:23 PM
I'm on the Richar bandwagon myself. One less hole to fill, IMO. Why people are so gung-ho on replacing him is beyond me.
They want results from him NOW so we can win. As long as we upgrade over Uribe, I can live with a temporary hole at 2B.

oeo
11-05-2007, 10:45 PM
They want results from him NOW so we can win. As long as we upgrade over Uribe, I can live with a temporary hole at 2B.

What a terrible excuse. He was given two months after we were way out of it. In the second month he hit a modest .260 with 6 doubles, 2 triples, and 3 homeruns.

voodoochile
11-05-2007, 10:58 PM
What a terrible excuse. He was given two months after we were way out of it. In the second month he hit a modest .260 with 6 doubles, 2 triples, and 3 homeruns.

Wasn't that his second month of facing major league pitching ever? Sounds like a pretty solid line given those circumstances...

oeo
11-05-2007, 11:09 PM
Wasn't that his second month of facing major league pitching ever? Sounds like a pretty solid line given those circumstances...

Sure was. The guy has talent; he's going to be our 2B for awhile.

Domeshot17
11-05-2007, 11:23 PM
Since everyone else is going perfect world, I will give mine.

You have to find a balance of defense and offense (and speed within the offense). I think personally the 4 most important defensive positions are C 2b SS CF.

Now we know AJ is C, and thats ok, he doesnt throw well but he calls a good game. 2b is Richar, and he looks like he could be a very fluid 2b with good range. CF would be awesome if we got Hunter, but it does not have to be him. I will explain later.

SS we need a guy who has good offensive potential but better D. I don't think that is Uribe because while he could win a GG every year I question if he has the heart, the want, to be the best defensive SS in the game.

Now finding the offensive balance means we have to sacrafice some D from the corner positions. Lets face it, we can run out 9 GG players, and if they can't hit you can't win.

So now we are left with this, Fields has huge offensive potential, you can't sit him, or even role play him. Crede coming off surgery is a question, if hes right he can be a solid offensive player with a great defensive skill. The main question is if is hindered by the surgery, will he be a gold glove player and will be be a power hitter. If those 2 stay are you willing to sacrafice D at SS for offensive numbers.

Everytime I ask myself this, I come back to one player, Orlando Cabrera or Chone Figgins. Cabrera is a hitter who can lead off, he has a hell of a glove at short. He has speed and can work his way on base. One of these 2 HAS to go if you are the Angels. You have kids like Wood and Aybar knocking on the door, Willits played his way into a full time position last year and you know you have to add a bat this winter. One of these 2 is the odd man out. Both can play short albiet one at a gold glove level and one at an average level (Figgins range is questionable, but his arm would be fine).

You go into the season looking like this

1 Figgins/Cabrera SS
2 Fields LF
3 Thome DH
4 PK 1b
5 Dye RF
6 Hunter CF
7 AJ C
8 Crede 3b
9 Richar 2b

Now to get Figgins/Cabrera I assume its a swap with an RP for Garland. I think its fine to move him, but you gotta get a viable 3rd-4th starter in FA. Run at Jason Jennings or someone with that potential, and let Masset Floyd Danks Gio Broadway etc. battle for the 4-5 spots. I know everyone hates to hear this but if we are going to win long term we have to have these kids come in and make an impact. Look at the teams who are winning, Boston has home grown arms to go with their big guys, Yanks got most of their pitching from their kids, Cleveland, Detroit, Angels Rockies Phils. WE MUST HAVE GUYS LIKE BROADWAY AND GIO AND DANKS AND FLOYD MAX OUT, ITS JUST A MUST. Poreda is probably to far to impact a team before 2010.

This is such a funny thing. All the moves depend on the first. If you sign a great offensive LF (or deal for one) like Crawford then you have to move Fields to 3rd and if you end up with a good SS then you an live with Anderson hitting 9th in center just for his D.

It is kind of a crappy situation, but to our org. If Fields is at 3rd hes more valuable then Crede. He has top 5 offensive 3b potential, and while he will never be Crede, he could be average, and we control him for 5 more years. Crede if he comes back healthy is maybe 40/60 at best to resign here. You can't deal fields, because if you do you have a HUGE chance you go into 2009 without both of them.

But no matter who it is the D has to be there. There is no coincidence that 2005 our pitches and our D was great. Then in 2006 our pitches suffered with Uribe and his wild throws, Crede hurting, Mack in center Pablo in left and lets not even think to hard about 2007 with Andy Gonzalez and the mystery throws. And it all starts up the middle.

Look no further than the world series. Crisp-Lugo-Pedoria vs Tavares-Troy Tulowitzki-Kaz Matsui. Great up the middle, neither overwhelmes you offensively, but they make up for it elsewhere.

The guys who have to Carry us next year is the 3-4-5. Konerko has to prove he is worth his 12 mil, Thome has to stay healthy and Dye has to keep it together. I know Konerko shouldered too much of the load with not a lot of protection for a lot of 07, and Dye played hurt, but these are the guys we say can be one of the best 3 4 5 in the game, and they have to prove it. If they do, we will be fine.

drewcifer
11-06-2007, 08:06 AM
Since everyone else is going perfect world, I will give mine.

You have to find a balance of defense and offense (and speed within the offense). I think personally the 4 most important defensive positions are C 2b SS CF.

Now we know AJ is C, and thats ok, he doesnt throw well but he calls a good game. 2b is Richar, and he looks like he could be a very fluid 2b with good range. CF would be awesome if we got Hunter, but it does not have to be him. I will explain later.

SS we need a guy who has good offensive potential but better D. I don't think that is Uribe because while he could win a GG every year I question if he has the heart, the want, to be the best defensive SS in the game.

Now finding the offensive balance means we have to sacrafice some D from the corner positions. Lets face it, we can run out 9 GG players, and if they can't hit you can't win.

So now we are left with this, Fields has huge offensive potential, you can't sit him, or even role play him. Crede coming off surgery is a question, if hes right he can be a solid offensive player with a great defensive skill. The main question is if is hindered by the surgery, will he be a gold glove player and will be be a power hitter. If those 2 stay are you willing to sacrafice D at SS for offensive numbers.

Everytime I ask myself this, I come back to one player, Orlando Cabrera or Chone Figgins. Cabrera is a hitter who can lead off, he has a hell of a glove at short. He has speed and can work his way on base. One of these 2 HAS to go if you are the Angels. You have kids like Wood and Aybar knocking on the door, Willits played his way into a full time position last year and you know you have to add a bat this winter. One of these 2 is the odd man out. Both can play short albiet one at a gold glove level and one at an average level (Figgins range is questionable, but his arm would be fine).

You go into the season looking like this

1 Figgins/Cabrera SS
2 Fields LF
3 Thome DH
4 PK 1b
5 Dye RF
6 Hunter CF
7 AJ C
8 Crede 3b
9 Richar 2b

Now to get Figgins/Cabrera I assume its a swap with an RP for Garland. I think its fine to move him, but you gotta get a viable 3rd-4th starter in FA. Run at Jason Jennings or someone with that potential, and let Masset Floyd Danks Gio Broadway etc. battle for the 4-5 spots. I know everyone hates to hear this but if we are going to win long term we have to have these kids come in and make an impact. Look at the teams who are winning, Boston has home grown arms to go with their big guys, Yanks got most of their pitching from their kids, Cleveland, Detroit, Angels Rockies Phils. WE MUST HAVE GUYS LIKE BROADWAY AND GIO AND DANKS AND FLOYD MAX OUT, ITS JUST A MUST. Poreda is probably to far to impact a team before 2010.

This is such a funny thing. All the moves depend on the first. If you sign a great offensive LF (or deal for one) like Crawford then you have to move Fields to 3rd and if you end up with a good SS then you an live with Anderson hitting 9th in center just for his D.

It is kind of a crappy situation, but to our org. If Fields is at 3rd hes more valuable then Crede. He has top 5 offensive 3b potential, and while he will never be Crede, he could be average, and we control him for 5 more years. Crede if he comes back healthy is maybe 40/60 at best to resign here. You can't deal fields, because if you do you have a HUGE chance you go into 2009 without both of them.

But no matter who it is the D has to be there. There is no coincidence that 2005 our pitches and our D was great. Then in 2006 our pitches suffered with Uribe and his wild throws, Crede hurting, Mack in center Pablo in left and lets not even think to hard about 2007 with Andy Gonzalez and the mystery throws. And it all starts up the middle.

Look no further than the world series. Crisp-Lugo-Pedoria vs Tavares-Troy Tulowitzki-Kaz Matsui. Great up the middle, neither overwhelmes you offensively, but they make up for it elsewhere.

The guys who have to Carry us next year is the 3-4-5. Konerko has to prove he is worth his 12 mil, Thome has to stay healthy and Dye has to keep it together. I know Konerko shouldered too much of the load with not a lot of protection for a lot of 07, and Dye played hurt, but these are the guys we say can be one of the best 3 4 5 in the game, and they have to prove it. If they do, we will be fine.

That's pretty good. I'd still like to see a move for Crawford instead of buying Hunter and can then live with Anderson in CF (You'd probably have to give up Owens along with Danks, Floyd and another prospect for Crawford).

For SS, I'd prefer Crede for Furcal. So, that'd give us:

1. Furcal - SS
2. Fields - 3B
3. Thome - DH
4. Konerko - 1B
5. Dye - RF
6. Crawford - LF (Finally - speed in the middle!)
7. AJ - C
8. Richar - 2B
9. Anderson - CF

Defense up the middle, a comp pick if Furcal doesn't work out, $10M off the books on Crede and Uribe to pay for Furcal... Definitely some speed and OBP injected into the lineup and we don't lose a SP in Garland.

Rotation:

Buehrle
Javy
Garland
Contreras
Retread

Bullpen:

Logan
Thornton
Jenks
McDougal/Wasserman/or whatever isn't included in a Crawford deal
+ KW moves for extra help

Madscout
11-06-2007, 09:28 AM
9. Anderson - CF



You can bet Anderson will never play again as long as Ozzie is manager...

munchman33
11-06-2007, 09:29 AM
That's pretty good. I'd still like to see a move for Crawford instead of buying Hunter and can then live with Anderson in CF

There is no situation where Brian Anderson is any part of this team. Whether or not you question his ability, you have to realize the team is completely done with him at this point. If he isn't traded, you're likely to see an outright release.

eriqjaffe
11-06-2007, 09:39 AM
You can bet Anderson will never play again as long as Ozzie is manager...I think Brady Anderson has a better chance at playing center for the Sox in 2008.

russ99
11-06-2007, 11:26 AM
In that projected lineup, I really have to wonder if Thome (still a servicable DH) might be dealt to fill some holes with good players, thus moving Hunter/Crawford/non-leadoff CF/LF acquisition into the 3 spot in the lineup.

After all, staring in 2008, the Phillies aren't paying a substantial part of his contract anymore.

Sockinchisox
11-06-2007, 11:46 AM
I didn't want to create a new topic on this so I'm just throwing it here.

According to newsday Kenny is committed to trading Crede and wants to do it ASAP.

Not really sure how credible it is but here's the quote.

That means Joe Crede likely won't replace A-Rod. The White Sox have resolved to deal him soon, and the Yankees are aiming higher than Crede, an official familiar with their thinking said.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spyanks1106,0,4383164.story?coll=ny-main-bigpix

slavko
11-06-2007, 12:23 PM
Have you ever heard the term if it ain't broke don't fix it?

WSI version:If it ain't broke, fix it till it is. Seriously, everything you have written in this thread is pure gold. Right on.

munchman33
11-06-2007, 12:50 PM
WSI version:If it ain't broke, fix it till it is. Seriously, everything you have written in this thread is pure gold. Right on.

You guys are completely right. There was nothing wrong with Brian Anderson's swing. It's all the opposing pitchers' fault. They kept throwing away from his wonderful swing.

ChiSoxFan35
11-06-2007, 02:00 PM
Latest ESPN Radio 1000 update today:

Kenny is going to go all out blitz when teams are able to talk to players about money and terms (I think he said Nov 13). He said Torii Hunter is target #1, who is suspected to want 5 years, 80 mil. He said some of the info is coming through player friends, like Jermaine Dye

He is also talking to the Dodgers, Braves, and another team (I think he said Angels) about young shortstops, and that more info will come/it'll be telling with what happens with Uribe's option

JermaineDye05
11-06-2007, 02:04 PM
Latest ESPN Radio 1000 update today:

Kenny is going to go all out blitz when teams are able to talk to players about money and terms (I think he said Nov 13). He said Torii Hunter is target #1, who is suspected to want 5 years, 80 mil. He said some of the info is coming through player friends, like Jermaine Dye

He is also talking to the Dodgers, Braves, and another team (I think he said Angels) about young shortstops, and that more info will come/it'll be telling with what happens with Uribe's option
The Angels are most likely the other team, they have Aybar and Wood who are blocked by Cabrera.

jabrch
11-06-2007, 03:04 PM
He said Torii Hunter is target #1, who is suspected to want 5 years, 80 mil.

16mm for Tori Hunter?

Hell no

I'd rather go spend 30mm on ARod than sign Hunter for 16 and pay Gar about 12.

thomas35forever
11-06-2007, 03:05 PM
6. Crawford - LF (Finally - speed in the middle!)

Sixth? For real? Crawford should bat second. He's too good a hitter to be batting that low.

gogosox16
11-06-2007, 03:07 PM
16mm for Tori Hunter?

Hell no

I'd rather go spend 30mm on ARod than sign Hunter for 16 and pay Gar about 12.
Are you serious? The sox would improve at outfield and keep one of the best pitchers in the A.L. and so much one player can do but 2 solid players would do far more than 1. cant expect A-rod to win 18 games by himself like Garland has done 2 out of 3 years.

drewcifer
11-06-2007, 03:07 PM
Sixth? For real? Crawford should bat second. He's too good a hitter to be batting that low.

You could put him at 2nd, it really doesn't matter. I'd want him to be a speed threat at the top of any inning; but it looks good breaking up the station to station plodding in the middle. :cool:

Foulke You
11-06-2007, 03:12 PM
I didn't want to create a new topic on this so I'm just throwing it here.

According to newsday Kenny is committed to trading Crede and wants to do it ASAP.

Not really sure how credible it is but here's the quote.



http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spyanks1106,0,4383164.story?coll=ny-main-bigpix
If the Yanks aren't a match for Crede, what teams could be likely trade partners? Who is in the market for a 3B this year who has pieces the Sox need like a SS or a surplus of relief pitching?

JermaineDye05
11-06-2007, 03:15 PM
If the Yanks aren't a match for Crede, what teams could be likely trade partners? Who is in the market for a 3B this year who has pieces the Sox need like a SS or a surplus of relief pitching?

There are a lot of teams, but I can only see the Yankees trading for a player who just came off of back surgery.

drewcifer
11-06-2007, 03:16 PM
If the Yanks aren't a match for Crede, what teams could be likely trade partners? Who is in the market for a 3B this year who has pieces the Sox need like a SS or a surplus of relief pitching?

The Dodgers. Crede for Furcal fills 2 holes at the same time. SS and leadoff.

thomas35forever
11-06-2007, 03:17 PM
You can all but be certain that KW is not going to spend big bucks at SS. If Hunter is his #1 target, don't expect a guy like Furcal to suit up for us next season. Cabrera is a possibility, but I think KW is going to sign Eckstein for a low price. Hunter will be the big acquisition this offseason. Also, don't look for any new starting pitchers, but Contreras will be gone. Broadway will be the fifth starter so he can get a full year under his belt. I liked what I saw from him in September. In the end, our lineup and rotation should look like this (who KW will get for the bullpen is beyond me):

1) Eckstein - SS
2) Fields - LF
3) Thome - DH
4) PK - 1B
5) JD - RF
6) Hunter - CF
7) AJ - C
8) Crede -3B
9) Richar - 2B

Rotation:

1) Buehrle
2) Vazquez
3) Garland
4) Danks
5) Broadway

jabrch
11-06-2007, 03:18 PM
keep one of the best pitchers in the A.L.

I like Gar - but that's a stretch. His statistics don't show that.

cant expect A-rod to win 15-18 games by himself like Garland has done 2 out of 3 years.


You can't possibly believe Garland, with a 4.50 ERA and a .296 opp avg in 2006 win 15-18 games by himself, do you? Gar is a decent pitcher. I like him. But he is not a difference maker of 15-18 games.

Alex Rodriguez is arguably the single best hitter in all of baseball. If not, he's top 3. He'd make everyone around him better - significantly.

And I'm still not sold on Torii Hunter. He doesn't get on base a ton, doesn't hit for average, and really hasn't been 100% healthy over the course of time.

I'd rather go Owens, Floyd/Gio/Broadway and ARod than Hunter, Garland and Uribe. And it isn't even close.

JermaineDye05
11-06-2007, 03:21 PM
You can all but be certain that KW is not going to spend big bucks at SS. If Hunter is his #1 target, don't expect a guy like Furcal to suit up for us next season. Cabrera is a possibility, but I think KW is going to sign Eckstein for a low price. Hunter will be the big acquisition this offseason. Also, don't look for any new starting pitchers, but Contreras will be gone. Broadway will be the fifth starter so he can get a full year under his belt. I liked what I saw from him in September. In the end, our lineup and rotation should look like this (who KW will get for the bullpen is beyond me):

1) Eckstein - SS
2) Fields - LF
3) Thome - DH
4) PK - 1B
5) JD - RF
6) Hunter - CF
7) AJ - C
8) Crede -3B
9) Richar - 2B

Rotation:

1) Buehrle
2) Vazquez
3) Garland
4) Danks
5) Broadway

I can almost guarantee we will have an actually outfielder patrolling left for us next season. Don't expect to see Josh there. He will either be in the minors at 3rd, or Crede will be traded (most likely to the Yankees IMO) and Josh will be our starting 3B.

drewcifer
11-06-2007, 03:23 PM
You can all but be certain that KW is not going to spend big bucks at SS. If Hunter is his #1 target, don't expect a guy like Furcal to suit up for us next season.

Why can't he do both? If Crede is moved to LA, and Uribe's option isn't picked up, that $10M right there. Furcal is owed $13M. That's a net effect of Furcal for $3M. Still can buy Hunter, or try trading the farm for Crawford.

Furcal > Eckstein.

gogosox16
11-06-2007, 03:23 PM
You can all but be certain that KW is not going to spend big bucks at SS. If Hunter is his #1 target, don't expect a guy like Furcal to suit up for us next season. Cabrera is a possibility, but I think KW is going to sign Eckstein for a low price. Hunter will be the big acquisition this offseason. Also, don't look for any new starting pitchers, but Contreras will be gone. Broadway will be the fifth starter so he can get a full year under his belt. I liked what I saw from him in September. In the end, our lineup and rotation should look like this (who KW will get for the bullpen is beyond me):

1) Eckstein - SS
2) Fields - LF
3) Thome - DH
4) PK - 1B
5) JD - RF
6) Hunter - CF
7) AJ - C
8) Crede -3B
9) Richar - 2B

Rotation:

1) Buehrle
2) Vazquez
3) Garland
4) Danks
5) Broadway
So what happens to Gavin Floyd....He's out of options....his he a long relier guy now or what or do we trade him this offseason

JermaineDye05
11-06-2007, 03:27 PM
So what happens to Gavin Floyd....He's out of options....his he a long relier guy now or what or do we trade him this offseason

My guess is that he battles for the 5th starter spot (that is if he's still with the team of course). If he does piss poor job (walking batters every other time) then I see the Sox trading him. If he shows he has good control like he showed to end the season last year I expect to see him on the club. I think the Sox really want to see him come up with another pitch, because the fastball and the curveball isn't enough to get around as a starter.

thomas35forever
11-06-2007, 03:27 PM
So what happens to Gavin Floyd....He's out of options....his he a long relier guy now or what or do we trade him this offseason
Good question. He'll probably be in long relief if Kenny doesn't trade him. But honestly, who would want him?

thomas35forever
11-06-2007, 03:30 PM
I can almost guarantee we will have an actually outfielder patrolling left for us next season. Don't expect to see Josh there. He will either be in the minors at 3rd, or Crede will be traded (most likely to the Yankees IMO) and Josh will be our starting 3B.
Why would you do that? He's proved himself as a major leaguer. If being among the rookie leaders in home runs doesn't do that, what does?

spawn
11-06-2007, 03:30 PM
Good question. He'll probably be in long relief if Kenny doesn't trade him. But honestly, who would want him?
If he pitches like he did to end the season, there will be plenty of teams that would take a chance on him. I want him battling for that 5th starters spot. He seemed to figure it out, and I for one want to see how he progresses. If he regresses, then I'd be all for Kenny trying to move him.

gogosox16
11-06-2007, 03:32 PM
Crede will be gone by New Years and once Kenny starts getting free agents. Once he see's what he has he will know what he needs to get for Crede.

JermaineDye05
11-06-2007, 03:33 PM
Why would you do that? He's proved himself as a major leaguer. If being among the rookie leaders in home runs doesn't do that, what does?

You're hurting the teams defense with him in left field. I really don't see him in the minors next year though. He will be starting for the Sox at 3rd base, I'm almost certain that Crede will be traded before opening day, be it this week or during spring training.

kobo
11-06-2007, 03:41 PM
I can almost guarantee we will have an actually outfielder patrolling left for us next season. Don't expect to see Josh there. He will either be in the minors at 3rd, or Crede will be traded (most likely to the Yankees IMO) and Josh will be our starting 3B.
Fields is not going anywhere. He's either starting in LF or 3B next season.

Lillian
11-06-2007, 05:48 PM
In a recent post I sarcastically suggested that a Crede for Damon trade, coupled with a F.A. acquisition of Hunter was
"one way to rebuild; just get so old and bad that you guarantee yourself lots of good draft picks for many years to come."
While I was just venting my frustration, and wasn't serious about such a strategy, the more I think about it, maybe that is a viable approach afterall.

Perhaps the Sox should try to acquire Type A Free Agents in trades, players with only a year or two left on their contracts. Then tender them, when their contracts expire, but with "low ball" offers, so that they sign elsewhere, leaving the Sox with the maximum draft compensation.
This seems like a better strategy than trying to sign Type A free agents, thus committing a lot of money for several years, and losing draft picks in the process.

Maybe deals like Crede for Damon, and Garland for Furcal, make sense.
Neither of those Sox players are Type A free agents, but both of the acquisitions would be. We could fill the hole in center, and at short, with high on base percentage guys at the top of the order. They would be around a couple of years, and then we could rebuild with a lot of good draft picks.
What do you think of that approach?

Daver
11-06-2007, 05:52 PM
Just a quick question for all the "Experts" that know Crede will be traded before the start of next season, can you provide me with a list of GM's that are stupid enough to trade for a player that has played zero games after back surgery?

It would be appreciated.

thedudeabides
11-06-2007, 06:02 PM
In a recent post I sarcastically suggested that a Crede for Damon trade, coupled with a F.A. acquisition of Hunter was
"one way to rebuild; just get so old and bad that you guarantee yourself lots of good draft picks for many years to come."
While I was just venting my frustration, and wasn't serious about such a strategy, the more I think about it, maybe that is a viable approach afterall.

Perhaps the Sox should try to acquire Type A Free Agents in trades, players with only a year or two left on their contracts. Then tender them, when their contracts expire, but with "low ball" offers, so that they sign elsewhere, leaving the Sox with the maximum draft compensation.
This seems like a better strategy than trying to sign Type A free agents, thus committing a lot of money for several years, and losing draft picks in the process.

Maybe deals like Crede for Damon, and Garland for Furcal, make sense.
Neither of those Sox players are Type A free agents, but both of the acquisitions would be. We could fill the hole in center, and at short, with high on base percentage guys at the top of the order. They would be around a couple of years, and then we could rebuild with a lot of good draft picks.
What do you think of that approach?

Won't Garland be a type A free agent?

CLR01
11-06-2007, 06:11 PM
Just a quick question for all the "Experts" that know Crede will be traded before the start of next season, can you provide me with a list of GM's that are stupid enough to trade for a player that has played zero games after back surgery?

It would be appreciated.

Is Gord Ash ruining any teams anywhere? :D:

JermaineDye05
11-06-2007, 06:17 PM
Just a quick question for all the "Experts" that know Crede will be traded before the start of next season, can you provide me with a list of GM's that are stupid enough to trade for a player that has played zero games after back surgery?

It would be appreciated.

The Yankees are the only team I can see doing that before ST, as they seem to never be afraid to take a risk. However after or during ST, Joe shows he's healthy and can still hit and field I can see plenty of buyers.

Hokiesox
11-06-2007, 06:17 PM
Just a quick question for all the "Experts" that know Crede will be traded before the start of next season, can you provide me with a list of GM's that are stupid enough to trade for a player that has played zero games after back surgery?

It would be appreciated.

Unless Steve Phillips gets a GM job, I don't know of one.

JB98
11-06-2007, 06:52 PM
Just a quick question for all the "Experts" that know Crede will be traded before the start of next season, can you provide me with a list of GM's that are stupid enough to trade for a player that has played zero games after back surgery?

It would be appreciated.

Only teams with deep pockets can afford to take such a risk.

drewcifer
11-06-2007, 07:01 PM
Just a quick question for all the "Experts" that know Crede will be traded before the start of next season, can you provide me with a list of GM's that are stupid enough to trade for a player that has played zero games after back surgery?

It would be appreciated.

Josh Byrnes - Diamondbacks. 1/5/2007.

Diamondbacks got RJ. Yankees got Luis Vizcaino, Ross Ohlendorf, Steven Jackson, and Alberto Gonzalez. I'm sure there have been others, but that was just last year. If I recall, RJ had the surgery in the fall of 06, so he couldn't have even thrown a pitch when the deal was made.