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View Full Version : Williams to meet w/ Hunter


Bucky F. Dent
11-01-2007, 08:01 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/630487,CST-SPT-sox01.article


IMHO, this is very good news. Fills the centerfield slot, and the leadoff slot.

C'mon Kenny, don't let us down.

dickallen15
11-01-2007, 08:08 AM
What would make no sense is if the Sox signed Eckstein, which I would not like, but so be it, and exercise Uribe's option, and move Uribe to second base. He's far and away the better SS defensively.

SBSoxFan
11-01-2007, 08:11 AM
I really couldn't stomach watching lobs from SS next year.

Dan Mega
11-01-2007, 08:13 AM
I really couldn't stomach watching lobs from SS next year.

I know, its like going from cannon to noodle arm. No thanks.

veeter
11-01-2007, 08:17 AM
I really couldn't stomach watching lobs from SS next year.I think your complaint should be that he's 33 years old with a bad back. He's more than proven the way he throws is plenty effective. Albeit extremely unorthodox.

veeter
11-01-2007, 08:18 AM
What would make no sense is if the Sox signed Eckstein, which I would not like, but so be it, and exercise Uribe's option, and move Uribe to second base. He's far and away the better SS defensively.Don't you think Richar is going to be pretty good?

krohnjw
11-01-2007, 08:21 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/630487,CST-SPT-sox01.article


IMHO, this is very good news. Fills the centerfield slot, and the leadoff slot.

C'mon Kenny, don't let us down.

I think he would fill CF quite nicely (as well add another bat with a respectable avg and obp to the middle of the order), but I would like to see a guy with a higher OBP to leadoff.

DumpJerry
11-01-2007, 08:27 AM
Remember, TODAY IS THE DEADLINE TO GET YOUR 2008 SEASON TICKET ORDER IN TO THE SOX!

Nice timing, that article. Uribe at Second? I'll like that the same day we have Billy Koch come out of the 'Pen to save a game. Richar is the Man, Uribe is not a 2nd Baseman.

thedudeabides
11-01-2007, 09:27 AM
Remember, TODAY IS THE DEADLINE TO GET YOUR 2008 SEASON TICKET ORDER IN TO THE SOX!

Nice timing, that article. Uribe at Second? I'll like that the same day we have Billy Koch come out of the 'Pen to save a game. Richar is the Man, Uribe is not a 2nd Baseman.

Consider the source. I can't see signing Eckstein and re-upping Uribe to move to second. Defensively, it doesn't make sense. This article really doesn't say much....the Sox will talk to free agents and think about bringing back Uribe.

It just shows that it doesn't take much to get us Sox fans excited.

cards press box
11-01-2007, 09:30 AM
How about a middle infield of Uribe at shortstop and Eckstein at second base with Richar as a backup or in Charlotte getting some playing time? Moving Eckstein to 2B should alleviate concerns about his arm. Eckstein would be an excellent #2 hitter, too.

hi im skot
11-01-2007, 09:33 AM
For me, Eckstein on the Sox makes little to no sense.

Uribe playing anywhere but short makes even less sense.

jabrch
11-01-2007, 09:35 AM
IMHO, this is very good news. Fills the centerfield slot, and the leadoff slot.


You'd want Torii Hunter leading off?


And I can't see giving him 5 years and 70mm...

spawn
11-01-2007, 09:37 AM
You'd want Torii Hunter leading off?

I think he was referencing David Eckstein as the leadoff hitter...

Craig Grebeck
11-01-2007, 09:43 AM
Make those moves and we're officially the S.F. Giants...

thedudeabides
11-01-2007, 09:43 AM
You'd want Torii Hunter leading off?


And I can't see giving him 5 years and 70mm...

Well, if you want one of the top free agent CF's, that's about what it's going to cost. It does sound high, but that's the price. It would be nice to see the Sox actually step up to meet the price. I get the feeling they will.

IlliniSox4Life
11-01-2007, 09:50 AM
I would be in favor of a 4/56 contract. I don't think he's worth $15 million a year, especially not over 5 years.

krohnjw
11-01-2007, 09:53 AM
Well, if you want one of the top free agent CF's, that's about what it's going to cost. It does sound high, but that's the price. It would be nice to see the Sox actually step up to meet the price. I get the feeling they will.

I have to agree as long as the money isn't astronomical - I think KW realizes we need to make some pretty big moves to be a top notch team next year.

I just hope we use some of that money to shore up the bullpen....as hit or miss as relievers can be, I am not a fan of bringing back the same crew and hoping for some magic.

My only reservation with Hunter would be age - a five year deal makes him 37 at the end of the deal. Who knows how many years he has left before he starts losing a step both bat wise and foot wise, or he could end up like Julio Franco :D:

October26
11-01-2007, 09:57 AM
Given that the market for free agent Center Fielders is kinda scarce this year(Rowand, Hunter, Andruw Jones, Cameron - I know I'm forgetting a few more), I think 14 mil a year for 5 years is not that high. As I have said before, my concern for Hunter is his knees because of all of those years he played on the turf in the Metrodome. But if Kenny's not worried about Hunter's knees, then I'm not either.

I love Hunter's game and have always envied the Twins for having such an aggressive player. Can you imagine how fun the Sox-Twins series would be with Hunter's playing for our Sox? Would I love for Kenny to snatch Hunter away from the Twins and sign him t a long term contract with the Sox? You betcha!

jabrch
11-01-2007, 09:59 AM
Well, if you want one of the top free agent CF's, that's about what it's going to cost. It does sound high, but that's the price. It would be nice to see the Sox actually step up to meet the price. I get the feeling they will.

If we are going to pay the price for a top tier CF, I'd rather get one. I just don't buy into Torii Hunter.

I'll cheer for him if we sign him - but I don't like investing that much money in him. He's often injured - and has been for a long time with little minor things - part of the price you pay for being as reckless with his body as he is. He's not a guy who will get on base much. Blah Blah

I just feel like he was an ESPN creation due to the Web Gems. Take away the trashbag and his defense is still darn good - but not what ESPN sells him as.

My problem is that there are a ton of older CFs who are FA this year who are not the players that they are either reputed to be (Hunter), the players they once were (Andruw Jones) or the players that people believe they are (Rowand). I'm all for paying top dollar to get a top FA - but I am not into paying top dollar to get a guy who is just somewhat above average.

jabrch
11-01-2007, 10:02 AM
I would be in favor of a 4/56 contract. I don't think he's worth $15 million a year, especially not over 5 years.


To me, there's no difference between a 14mm a year deal and a 15mm deal. Either this is the guy, or he isn't the guy. 56 or 60.... whatever

Bucky F. Dent
11-01-2007, 10:04 AM
I think he was referencing David Eckstein as the leadoff hitter...


Actually, I was only talking about Hunter, to play center and leadoff (although with his obp and other offensive tools his likely better used later in the lineup). I don't want Eckstein on this squad. Feel that we need a better defensive option at short....and that's not Uribe, btw.

spawn
11-01-2007, 10:07 AM
Actually, I was only talking about Hunter, to play center and leadoff (although with his obp and other offensive tools his likely better used later in the lineup). I don't want Eckstein on this squad. Feel that we need a better defensive option at short....and that's not Uribe, btw.
Torii Hunter is NOT a leadoff hitter.

The Immigrant
11-01-2007, 10:09 AM
Meh, I'd rather trade for someone younger, faster and cheaper to play CF and put the savings towards a better bullpen. Bill Hall or Coco Crisp in CF at less than $5MM for 2008 sounds a lot better than Torii Hunter for $15MM, not that I expect the White Sox to actually sign him with the desperate Rangers in the mix.

oeo
11-01-2007, 10:14 AM
This doesn't mean much. Kenny should be meeting with any free agent that fills a hole. Regardless of what he said about A-Rod, I bet he meets with him, too.

Let's talk when the contract negotiations start getting serious; right now, this should all be procedural.

jsg-07
11-01-2007, 10:15 AM
Dont get me wrong.. i would love to see Hunter or Rowand in CF next year, but something doesnt seem right in any of this and I still think there may be a lot more we are not hearing about. All I heard last year was that Kenny convinced Burhle and Dye to stick around because he was going to make a splash in the market and bring some big signings. I have to believe that means more than Hunter and Eckstein... although I am not sure what....

jabrch
11-01-2007, 10:20 AM
Meh, I'd rather trade for someone younger, faster and cheaper to play CF and put the savings towards a better bullpen. .

Spending big money on a bullpen is hardly ever the solution except at closer - where we are already set.

Bill Hall or Coco Crisp in CF


Yuck

If that's what it comes down to, I'm fine saving the 5mm and going with Owens.

PorkChopExpress
11-01-2007, 10:21 AM
If we are going to pay the price for a top tier CF, I'd rather get one. I just don't buy into Torii Hunter.

I'll cheer for him if we sign him - but I don't like investing that much money in him. He's often injured - and has been for a long time with little minor things - part of the price you pay for being as reckless with his body as he is. He's not a guy who will get on base much. Blah Blah

I just feel like he was an ESPN creation due to the Web Gems. Take away the trashbag and his defense is still darn good - but not what ESPN sells him as.

My problem is that there are a ton of older CFs who are FA this year who are not the players that they are either reputed to be (Hunter), the players they once were (Andruw Jones) or the players that people believe they are (Rowand). I'm all for paying top dollar to get a top FA - but I am not into paying top dollar to get a guy who is just somewhat above average.

I feel the same way. Hunter does not impress me except when he plays the Sox. He has always had a thing about beating us. He does not perform the same heroics when I see him play the Tigers or the Indians. He has said as much in interviews, if I recall correctly. I just don't see him as worth the money he is asking.

I would rather try to acquire a good young CF through a trade than dump money into one of these guys. I may be crazy, but I would even rather use someone from our own system (Owens, Anderson) rather than just waste money to make a "big free agent" signing. I like that we are ready to spend, just spend wisely.

Oh, and no way on Eckstein.

Danryan
11-01-2007, 10:31 AM
Get some relief pitching!

The Immigrant
11-01-2007, 10:31 AM
Spending big money on a bullpen is hardly ever the solution except at closer - where we are already set.

There's a difference between spending "big money" on a bullpen and spending no money. There is a reasonable compromise to be found, where you can sign one or two free agents to reasonable contracts to bolster your relief corps. Unless, of course, you are advocating leaving the current bullpen intact.

Yuck

If that's what it comes down to, I'm fine saving the 5mm and going with Owens.

Fair enough, but I can't imagine too many people agree with you. Jerry Owens has no business being a starting CF on any MLB team.

balke
11-01-2007, 10:31 AM
The Sox are in a tough spot in CF. They need someone there, and need to make sure Hunter doesn't go back to the Twins... but he's older now and is coming off a career year most likely not to be repeated.

Put Hunter with Thome and PK in the order, and this team may set an all time record for GIDP's.

I want the defense out there, and a decent bat, but Hunter will probably be paid too much to play for the Sox. He doesn't solve anything at leadoff if the Sox let Pods go. This will have the potential to be a 2004 HR or nothing type team, with (hopefully) a little better pitching. I'm not entirely against that, but Dye and Thome really gotta bounce back if the Sox wanna win with that type of team. PK can't be pulling his half season of hitting the baseball crap either.

DoItForDanPasqua
11-01-2007, 10:32 AM
We need Hunter on our side.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/images/2004/07/28/20040727204513.jpeg

soxfan13
11-01-2007, 10:44 AM
We need Hunter on our side.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/images/2004/07/28/20040727204513.jpeg

You win!!!!! I was waiting for someone to bring up the above incident but I was expecting it along the lines of why would we want him after what he did to poor Jamie Burke:gulp:

chisox77
11-01-2007, 10:54 AM
I think Torii Hunter would be a tremendous upgrade in CF. I want him in a White Sox uniform. Sometimes, you have to pay the price to get a player like this. I would rather the Sox pay Hunter than Rowand (who is asking for a lot of money as well).

Hunter: great defense, good power and RBI production, leadership qualities, and a winner. IMHO, it would be a terrific way to start the offseason (when the negotiations can actually begin).


:cool:

DoItForDanPasqua
11-01-2007, 10:57 AM
You win!!!!! I was waiting for someone to bring up the above incident but I was expecting it along the lines of why would we want him after what he did to poor Jamie Burke:gulp:

I hope he can do the same to poor Joe Mauer.

PennStater98r
11-01-2007, 11:02 AM
Here's the thing! If we're going to send nearly $20MM a year for an older, injury-prone veteran Centerfielder who's not in the top five at his position...

Why wouldn't we spend $25-$29MM a year on the best player in the game to play a position we want to upgrade (shortstop).

GoSox2K3
11-01-2007, 11:14 AM
Here's the thing! If we're going to send nearly $20MM a year for an older, injury-prone veteran Centerfielder who's not in the top five at his position...

Why wouldn't we spend $25-$29MM a year on the best player in the game to play a position we want to upgrade (shortstop).

:?: Aren't you stretching numbers a bit to suggest that Hunter asking for almost as much as A-Rod?

Reports suggest Hunter is asking for $15 million while A-Rod is asking for $30 million. That's double the salary for Hunter. Also, reports are that Hunter's contract may be in the ballpark of $75 million while A-Rod may be looking for $300 million. By the way, they are both the same age (born 9 days apart in fact).

I get your point that A-Rod is a much better player and would be a much bigger boost to the Sox. But, let's not kid ourselves into thinking that their salaries are going to be as close as $5 million apart.

chisox77
11-01-2007, 11:18 AM
The price for Hunter would be around $14 or $15 million/year. That's a price the Sox can live with. And that's maybe a little more than half of what ARod would cost. More practical needs can be addressed with remaining funds, such as releif pitching, etc. I would rather sign Hunter at the above price (for four/maybe five years), and devote remaining resources to other needs. A star player, plus two upgrades is the better route to go than one superstar who would eat a large chunk of payroll.

I think ARod is a great player, but his presence on his previous teams has not translated into a World Series championship for Seattle, Texas, and even the Yankees.

Jjav829
11-01-2007, 11:18 AM
A source indicated that the Sox likely will pick up Uribe's option either way and that he might be a possibility at second base or even third base if the Sox decide to part ways with Joe Crede before he becomes a free agent after the 2008 season.Hahaha, you got me you source guy you. I forgot today was April Fools day.

Oh wait, it's November 1, not April 1. Damn, and I didn't even know they had another one of these "make a joke/silly prank" days.

Seriously, if Juan Uribe is our starting 3B next season, I will ban myself from WSI for the 2008 season. And refuse to watch any games. The only reason Juan Uribe even deserves to have some kind of role in the majors is because of his defense at shortstop. You take away that, and he's nothing. We have two much better options at 3B next season. Unless they both get hit by buses soon, Uribe shouldn't even be in the conversation.

Actually, I think I'd rather have the Joe Crede in whatever condition he is in after getting hit by a bus than Juan Uribe.

DSpivack
11-01-2007, 11:21 AM
I'm no big fan of Hunter, a career .270/.320/.470 hitter, but he's better than Owens.

Also, the article said Hunter and Dye are being induced into the Arizona Fall League HOF. There's an Arizona Fall League HOF? :?:

cws05champ
11-01-2007, 11:23 AM
:?: Aren't you stretching numbers a bit to suggest that Hunter asking for almost as much as A-Rod?

Reports suggest Hunter is asking for $15 million while A-Rod is asking for $30 million. That's double the salary for Hunter. Also, reports are that Hunter's contract may be in the ballpark of $75 million while A-Rod may be looking for $300 million. By the way, they are both the same age (born 9 days apart in fact).

I get your point that A-Rod is a much better player and would be a much bigger boost to the Sox. But, let's not kid ourselves into thinking that their salaries are going to be as close as $5 million apart.

Agreed...if the Sox were going to Spend $30 mil extra in salary(don't think that will happen), then I would like to have Hunter and 2-3 other players for that $$(maybe extend Garland and bring in some BP help) rather than just one A-Rod.

As for the length of the contract, 4-5 years is OK to me in the AL. Remember that Konerko will be up after 2010 and Hunter, if his CF skills diminish can move to DH at that point...Dye and Thome will be found memories at that point as well. Fields eventually will be moved to 1B to take over for Konerko.

chisox77
11-01-2007, 11:45 AM
Hunter is, IMHO, still in the prime of his career. He loves to play at the Cell. His power and RBI numbers should go up a little bit, playing 81 games a year at the Cell. He's stated several times that he likes hitting here, and playing defense here. I say "full go."

As for his health, the fact that he will no longer be playing at the Metrodome half of the time will be better for his legs (and knees). The Sox have a pretty good track record for keeping position players fairly healthy through a long season.


:cool:

Flight #24
11-01-2007, 11:48 AM
Agreed...if the Sox were going to Spend $30 mil extra in salary(don't think that will happen), then I would like to have Hunter and 2-3 other players for that $$(maybe extend Garland and bring in some BP help) rather than just one A-Rod.


This is where I think actually naming players would be helpful.

The Sox currently have potential openings in LF (Fields), CF (Owens), 3B (Crede/Fields), and 2B (Richar).

So would you prefer Hunter+Eckstein or ARod+Owens? Hunter+Rowand+Uribe or ARod+Fields+Owens?

In almost all cases, while I might take the non-ARod scenario in yrs1-2, theres no doubt that in years 3-5 I'd much much prefer ARod & Owens over Hunter & Eckstein. And I don't think by any means that it's a gimme for the 2 FAs over ARod in the early years.

ma-gaga
11-01-2007, 11:50 AM
5 years - $75mm. :o:

That's the price some team is going to pay. There was some talk about the Twins getting a hometown discount, but I'm guessing it would be something like getting the deal reduced to a 4 year deal ($60mm) instead of 5.

But right now Torii is the biggest contract whore out there. He's gone on record in at least 5 different cities that he would "love to play there", and he's going to play the game...

Nellie_Fox
11-01-2007, 11:55 AM
Here's the thing! If we're going to send nearly $20MM a year for an older, injury-prone veteran Centerfielder who's not in the top five at his position...Where do you get the idea that he's "injury prone?" He missed games due to a broken ankle from crashing into the wall at Fenway. Other than that, he's had over 500 AB every year since 2000. By the way, for those worried about his legs from playing on the turf at the dome, you should remember that they tore out the crappy stuff and replaced it with Field Turf before the 2005 season. Now, I've never been on it, but I've talked to some of our football players here at MSU, and they tell me that the difference between regular artificial turf and Field Turf is like night and day.

soxfan13
11-01-2007, 12:08 PM
Here's the thing! If we're going to send nearly $20MM a year for an older, injury-prone veteran Centerfielder who's not in the top five at his position...

Why wouldn't we spend $25-$29MM a year on the best player in the game to play a position we want to upgrade (shortstop).

Wow can I hire you as my accountant at tax time you really know how to work those numbers to fit your argument. Everything about this post is just simply wrong except for the top 5 part because that is an opinion based item.

102605
11-01-2007, 12:13 PM
When can free agents begin signing?

eriqjaffe
11-01-2007, 12:13 PM
The Sox have a pretty good track record for keeping position players fairly healthy through a long season.http://www.rotoworld.com/images/headshots/MLB/2966.jpghttp://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_325392.jpghttp://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_113679.jpghttp://www.rotoworld.com/images/headshots/MLB/2252.jpghttp://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_150134.jpghttp://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_150367.jpg

Last year, not so much. ;)

sox1970
11-01-2007, 12:24 PM
When can free agents begin signing?

Players can file October 29 to November 12. They can negotiate with their own team during this time. November 13, players can start talking money with new teams.

itsnotrequired
11-01-2007, 12:30 PM
http://www.rotoworld.com/images/headshots/MLB/2966.jpghttp://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_325392.jpghttp://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_113679.jpghttp://www.rotoworld.com/images/headshots/MLB/2252.jpghttp://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_150134.jpghttp://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_150367.jpg

Last year, not so much. ;)

:thome:

word_up_thome: hey, don't forget about me, jim tho

word_up_thome: thome

Sargeant79
11-01-2007, 12:39 PM
Tori Hunter will get at least 5 yrs, $75 mil

Year 1: Age 33, $15 mil ...fine
Year 2: Age 34, $15 mil ...fine
Year 3: Age 35, $15 mil ...probably fine
Year 4: Age 36, $15 mil ...starting to not look so hot
Year 5: Age 37, $15 mil ...albatross-like

The problem is not the annual dollars, it's the years. Someone will give him a five year deal. While I think he would make a great addition, I would have concerns if it was the White Sox who gave it to him.

thomas35forever
11-01-2007, 01:21 PM
Tori Hunter will get at least 5 yrs, $75 mil

I'd be surprised with KW offered him higher than 60. Would that just be a fluke deal or would it change the way we offer money to big-time FAs? We'll be reevaluating KW if he signs Torii for this much.

102605
11-01-2007, 01:23 PM
Tori Hunter will get at least 5 yrs, $75 mil

Year 1: Age 33, $15 mil ...fine
Year 2: Age 34, $15 mil ...fine
Year 3: Age 35, $15 mil ...probably fine
Year 4: Age 36, $15 mil ...starting to not look so hot
Year 5: Age 37, $15 mil ...albatross-like

The problem is not the annual dollars, it's the years. Someone will give him a five year deal. While I think he would make a great addition, I would have concerns if it was the White Sox who gave it to him.

This looks much better for the same money.


Year 1: Age 33, $18 mil
Year 2: Age 34, $17 mil
Year 3: Age 35, $15
Year 4: Age 36, $12.5
Year 5: Age 37, $12.5

SouthSideJay
11-01-2007, 01:34 PM
We need to forget about signing Hunter, and get Rowand back. He'll be considerably less expensive, and we'll get a little bit of our spark back from 2005.

That being said, we could then use the money that would have gone to Hunter, and allocate that towards signing/trading for a new SS. Tejada anyone?

soxfan13
11-01-2007, 01:36 PM
We need to forget about signing Hunter, and get Rowand back. He'll be considerably less expensive, and we'll get a little bit of our spark back from 2005.

That being said, we could then use the money that would have gone to Hunter, and allocate that towards signing/trading for a new SS. Tejada anyone?

OH BOY new and another addition to the Rowand love fest. Welcome anyway:gulp:

SouthSideJay
11-01-2007, 01:39 PM
Am I wrong about Rowand? I have heard nothing but screaming for Rowand back since I joined this forum a few years back (under the alias of SouthSideLove). Why the apprehension to sign him, now that he's a free agent? He is certainly a better option than older OFs like Jones or Hunter.

roadrunner
11-01-2007, 01:48 PM
Tori Hunter is a great player and would definitely fill a need but I hope they don't sign him to something like 5/70. He's not worth paying 15 -18% of the total budget. (feel free to correct those numbers) His 162 game averages for his career are: 25 HR, 93 RBI, 17 SB, .271/.324/.469. Those numbers are nice but not for your 1st - 2nd most highly paid player. His price tag will be huge simply because he's available and not necessarily because he's worth it. I would rather A) give a big contract to somebody else this year or even better B) wait until another year when better player is available even if it's at another position. Since we're talking about a huge portion of the budget for the next five years, we have to consider the fact that other free agents will be available over the course of that time.

From baseball-reference.com: most similar batter = Carl Everett
most silimilar player through age 31= Jermaine Dye

SouthSideJay
11-01-2007, 01:51 PM
Tori Hunter is a great player and would definitely fill a need but I hope they don't sign him to something like 5/70. He's not worth paying 15 -18% of the total budget. (feel free to correct those numbers) His 162 game averages for his career are: 25 HR, 93 RBI, 17 SB, .271/.324/.469. Those numbers are nice but not for your 1st - 2nd most highly paid player. His price tag will be huge simply because he's available and not necessarily because he's worth it. I would rather A) give a big contract to somebody else this year or even better B) wait until another year when better player is available even if it's at another position. Since we're talking about a huge portion of the budget for the next five years, we have to consider the fact that other free agents will be available over the course of that time.

From baseball-reference.com: most similar batter = Carl Everett
most silimilar player through age 31= Jermaine Dye

I whole heartedly agree, and thanks for pointing out those numbers. They look like Jacque Jones-like numbers, but Hunter does have a great glove. Then again, so does Rowand.

Sockinchisox
11-01-2007, 01:51 PM
Am I wrong about Rowand? I have heard nothing but screaming for Rowand back since I joined this forum a few years back (under the alias of SouthSideLove). Why the apprehension to sign him, now that he's a free agent? He is certainly a better option than older OFs like Jones or Hunter.

Apparently you missed the "Rowand wants 6 yrs, 84 mil" thread.

Sargeant79
11-01-2007, 01:56 PM
This looks much better for the same money.


Year 1: Age 33, $18 mil
Year 2: Age 34, $17 mil
Year 3: Age 35, $15
Year 4: Age 36, $12.5
Year 5: Age 37, $12.5

Agreed, but that's not how his contract will ultimately look. If anything, the annual salary will escalate over the life of the deal. I'd be reluctantly happy with a 4 year deal for Hunter, but it may honestly be a better option to get Rowand if the dollars are significantly lower. There's good arguments for either one of them, really.

russ99
11-01-2007, 02:04 PM
I'm all for the Sox going after Torii Hunter at whatever price is necessary.

After this horrid season, the fans and the players need a big bold move that will get them excited about White Sox baseball again.

Surely he's not the only acquisition the Sox need to make, but it would set the tone for the entire offseason that: the Sox want to win, the Sox are willing to pay market value (not that "correction" BS like last year) and the Sox want to bring in good players.

So as a baseball move, a PR move and a repair-the-psyche move, this completely makes sense.

102605
11-01-2007, 02:13 PM
Agreed, but that's not how his contract will ultimately look. If anything, the annual salary will escalate over the life of the deal. I'd be reluctantly happy with a 4 year deal for Hunter, but it may honestly be a better option to get Rowand if the dollars are significantly lower. There's good arguments for either one of them, really.

Why does it have to? 75 mil is 75 mil. Its guaranteed.

Zisk77
11-01-2007, 02:13 PM
It seems to me that torii's injuries are all creations of playing on the twinkiedome astroturf. i would expect not only would he be healthier in a Sox uniform, but also his sb would increase.

Eckstein is only an upgrade over Juan as a leadoff/# 2 type hitter. He has no range (and should become a 2b soon), no arm, and no power. if we didn't have Richar he might be a nice fit at 2b.

RowanDye
11-01-2007, 02:15 PM
Agreed, but that's not how his contract will ultimately look. If anything, the annual salary will escalate over the life of the deal. I'd be reluctantly happy with a 4 year deal for Hunter, but it may honestly be a better option to get Rowand if the dollars are significantly lower. There's good arguments for either one of them, really.

I don't think either one of them improves the team enough to warrant paying that much money. If we are truly in a win-now mode, then we need to make a trade.

Edgar Renteria would have been nice. Then we could have signed a cheaper option like Corey Patterson to play CF.

jabrch
11-01-2007, 02:16 PM
Where do you get the idea that he's "injury prone?"


He has missed a good chunk of games every year. They aren't major injuries, but he is dinged up a lot. He ends up playing 140-150 games most every year. 05 was a real injury. 07 seemed like a fluke that he had no groins or hammys (well - that's not exactly true - I am sure he had both a groin and 2 hammys).

Either way - he gets close to 600 PAs nearly every season - so that's a good thing.

I'd cheer for Hunter if he was a Sox - I don't like him - but I'd certainly cheer for him. Heck - I cheered for Albert Belle - I can surely cheer for Torii.

ilsox7
11-01-2007, 02:16 PM
Agreed, but that's not how his contract will ultimately look. If anything, the annual salary will escalate over the life of the deal. I'd be reluctantly happy with a 4 year deal for Hunter, but it may honestly be a better option to get Rowand if the dollars are significantly lower. There's good arguments for either one of them, really.

Actually, it'd be in Toriiiii's best interests to have a front-loaded contract. And if the Sox think they can afford that now and then pay him less down the road, then it could work.

SBSoxFan
11-01-2007, 02:17 PM
wait until another year when better player is available even if it's at another position. Since we're talking about a huge portion of the budget for the next five years, we have to consider the fact that other free agents will be available over the course of that time.

I've been wondering about this too. What's the CF, FA market for 2009? What about trying to get Andruw Jones short term, say a 1-year deal with a mutual option for a second year. If he rebounds, he can become a FA and look for another big payday. Then you have another year to work on long term solutions.

Of course, this doesn't address the lead off spot. And the Sox have few options there. Either go get a SS to lead off (one not named Eckstein), bring Pods back in LF, or moving Owens to left. The last 2 options require moving Fields back out of LF. The only other position he plays is 3B. Except, the Sox will have Crede there if he's healthy.

We don't know how Crede's back will turn out. I'd rather trade him in the off season than figure out in season how his back responds. If he's healthy, what do you do with Fields? If he's not, you've missed your chance to get anything for him.

jabrch
11-01-2007, 02:17 PM
It seems to me that torii's injuries are all creations of playing on the twinkiedome astroturf.

Except that they don't play on Astroturf in the Dome - they haven't for a few years.

Hunter gets dinged up because of how he throws his body around. That's not likely to change as he ages.

ilsox7
11-01-2007, 02:19 PM
I've been wondering about this too. What's the CF, FA market for 2009? What about trying to get Andruw Jones short term, say a 1-year deal with a mutual option for a second year. If he rebounds, he can become a FA and look for another big payday. Then you have another year to work on long term solutions.



Jones will not settle for a 1 year deal unless NO team offers him a multi-year deal.

jabrch
11-01-2007, 02:21 PM
Actually, it'd be in Toriiiii's best interests to have a front-loaded contract. And if the Sox think they can afford that now and then pay him less down the road, then it could work.

I don't really care how it is loaded. Average $ per year is much more important to me. I'm sure the Sox look at it that way also. It isn't as if they can't manage a budget. $1.00 in 2007 is worth about $1.05 in 2008 and abouot 1.11 in 2009 and about 1.18 in 2010.

Present value/future value/blah blah blah

This is stuff that the Sox finance folks as well as the players agents all have in their heads and can make quick calls on. If the Sox "backload" a deal, the agent knows in his mind how many 2007 dollars a 2012 dollar is worth. What's the string of cash flows worth - that's the question.

jabrch
11-01-2007, 02:22 PM
Then we could have signed a cheaper option like Corey Patterson to play CF.

I'd stick with Owens instead of Patterson.

The Immigrant
11-01-2007, 02:29 PM
FWIW, Jones and Patterson are both Boras clients.

North Sox Sider
11-01-2007, 02:32 PM
Why is it that so many people are in love with Danny Richar?? He batted .230 in 56 games, struck out 33 times in 56 games which puts him near 100 times in a full season. Now he only had 3 errors in those games which isnt bad but was 1 for 3 in sb. I am sorry but if we can get an upgrade at 2nd (not uribe) then I hope KWill does that. Brandon Phillips of the Reds come to mind who would fit great at 2nd base and be a perfect lead off hitter. Just throwing that out there.

PorkChopExpress
11-01-2007, 02:33 PM
Apparently you missed the "Rowand wants 6 yrs, 84 mil" thread.

First of all, that's a number to get negotiations started.

Second, that's already $1 million/year less than what Hunter is seeking.

Third, there is a belief that Rowand would give the Sox a discount.

Fourth, Rowand is 2 years younger.

The Immigrant
11-01-2007, 02:44 PM
Brandon Phillips of the Reds come to mind who would fit great at 2nd base and be a perfect lead off hitter.

Brandon Phillips would be a great start, but I really feel that KW should focus his energy on getting Jose Reyes from the Mets. KW should then make a push to get Erik Bedard from the Orioles and that Saltalamachia kid from the Rangers. We could use another lefty starter and a better backup catcher.

:wink:

Zisk77
11-01-2007, 03:08 PM
Except that they don't play on Astroturf in the Dome - they haven't for a few years.

Hunter gets dinged up because of how he throws his body around. That's not likely to change as he ages.

Ok, Field turf which still isn't as soft a surface as grass, especiallt with cement under the turf. Also the CF wall doesn't have padding in that houe of horrors.

Zisk77
11-01-2007, 03:14 PM
Why is it that so many people are in love with Danny Richar?? He batted .230 in 56 games, struck out 33 times in 56 games which puts him near 100 times in a full season. Now he only had 3 errors in those games which isnt bad but was 1 for 3 in sb. I am sorry but if we can get an upgrade at 2nd (not uribe) then I hope KWill does that. Brandon Phillips of the Reds come to mind who would fit great at 2nd base and be a perfect lead off hitter. Just throwing that out there.


Umm, do u remember Brandon Phillips pitiful rookie year? Richar showed promise. I think you need to let him develop. Most rookies don't come up and just become world Beaters. Sizemore, struggled, Crede was awful, david ortiz could not catch up with a high FB until his lat year in Minny, etc.

Richar looked good defensively, showed surprising power, and was quite selective at the plate. My guess is he WON"T K much as he develops.

jabrch
11-01-2007, 03:27 PM
FWIW, Jones and Patterson are both Boras clients.


I'm still convinced that this means nothing. Not paying ridiculous prices does not mean we won't talk to a Boras client of it makes sense. I still don't regret passing on "deals" like JD Drew or Alex Rodriguez when they were made. I don't think the Dodgers or the Rangers would repeat the mistakes they made. I don't think the Red Sox would sign Drew again at that price even.

Not dealing with Boras is only a bad thing if we fail to get someone who we otherwise would have gotten if it were not for Boras. I have yet to see evidence that this is happening.

jabrch
11-01-2007, 03:33 PM
Also the CF wall doesn't have padding in that houe of horrors.

Um...I don't think that's quite true either. I'm fairly sure the wall is padded.

chisox77
11-01-2007, 03:48 PM
BTW, I think Richar will be fine at 2B. He showed enough promise to earn continued time at that position. I think he is at least as good as Iguchi was defensively, and I was encouraged by his increased comfort at the plate. I felt his hitting showed much promise, and will only get better. He will be fine in the ninth spot . . .

. . . but again, I want Hunter in CF for the White Sox.


:cool:

Sargeant79
11-01-2007, 04:18 PM
Why does it have to? 75 mil is 75 mil. Its guaranteed.

It doesn't, but try explaining that to Hunter's agent.

Lip Man 1
11-01-2007, 04:26 PM
Jab:

I don't know if it is or not. It looks to me like a chain link fence covered with a baggy. On TV it always seems to collapse inward when contact is made. If it is padded it doesn't appear to be very thick certainly nothing like the old center field fence at Comiskey Park. That was covered with thick vinyl padding tacked in to create pockets.

Lip

russ99
11-01-2007, 04:30 PM
First of all, that's a number to get negotiations started.

Second, that's already $1 million/year less than what Hunter is seeking.

Third, there is a belief that Rowand would give the Sox a discount.

Fourth, Rowand is 2 years younger.

Fifth, Torii's a way better hitter than Rowand, especially if you discount Aaron's performance in this, his free agent year.

JGarlandrules20
11-01-2007, 04:35 PM
I'm curious how Twin fans would react if Torii actually signed with us. AJ was so much of a "traitor" for signing with us a season after he was traded...

MetroPD
11-01-2007, 04:40 PM
Fifth, Torii's a way better hitter than Rowand, especially if you discount Aaron's performance in this, his free agent year.
Sixth Torrii's a way more marketable big name player. I'd rather have the All Star than the almost star (though local fan favorite Rowand may be).

wdelaney72
11-01-2007, 04:43 PM
Rowand isn't fit to be in the same sentence as the FA CF in discussion.

They'd have to overpay for Torii, but sometimes that's a chance you have to take... this would be one of them.

PorkChopExpress
11-01-2007, 04:48 PM
Fifth, Torii's a way better hitter than Rowand, especially if you discount Aaron's performance in this, his free agent year.

How is Hunter a way better hitter than Rowand? Rowand hits for a better average, gets on base at a better clip, and has similar power numbers. Hunter may have a little bit more pop, but not much. Saying Hunter is a way better hitter than Rowand is ridiculous.

TheVulture
11-01-2007, 04:50 PM
Fifth, Torii's a way better hitter than Rowand, especially if you discount Aaron's performance in this, his free agent year.

Yeah, except the actual numbers don't really back up that assertion.

JermaineDye05
11-01-2007, 04:55 PM
I'm curious how Twin fans would react if Torii actually signed with us. AJ was so much of a "traitor" for signing with us a season after he was traded...

I would expect Torii to at the very least have 50/50 cheers and boos. I think the Twins fans will give him a good welcome back, but after he hits a homer or robs one then they'll boo him. Torii doesn't have the track record AJ did of being a 'clubhouse cancer'. Although I was stunned when Cleveland fans booed Thome, so anythings possible. Now the question is what would we do if Aaron signed with say, Minnesota? I know I'd be cheering for him.

PorkChopExpress
11-01-2007, 04:57 PM
Rowand isn't fit to be in the same sentence as the FA CF in discussion.

Before I say this, I want to make clear that I am not a Rowand lover who will do anything to get him back. Frankly, I don't think we should overpay for either of these guys. Take Rowand at a discount if he'll give it, but that's it.

As for talking about the two in the same sentence, Rowand is more than deserving enough to be considered as a possibility over Hunter.

I don't understand this Hunter love. More than three years at $15mil or more is just stupid. And he already turned down 3/45 from the Twins, so why would he accept that elsewhere? I'm happy KW is willing to spend, but that doesn't mean we should just go throw it at the first overpriced FA out there.

MetroPD
11-01-2007, 05:04 PM
How is Hunter a way better hitter than Rowand? Rowand hits for a better average, gets on base at a better clip, and has similar power numbers. Hunter may have a little bit more pop, but not much. Saying Hunter is a way better hitter than Rowand is ridiculous.

Rowand
849 AB
93 HR
347 RBI
.286 hitter

Hunter
1234 AB
192 HR
711 RBI
.271 hitter

russ99
11-01-2007, 05:09 PM
Rowand
849 AB
93 HR
347 RBI
.286 hitter

Hunter
1234 AB
192 HR
711 RBI
.271 hitter

Despite what Aaron hit in that bandbox in Philly the last 2 years, I saw him suffer through some really poor hitting years with the White Sox. We can't expect him to be the same hitter as was this season if he comes back to face much better A.L. pitching.

Hunter may have a lower career average, but he's been consistent, and has more power which means much more playing half his games at the Cell.

Let me put it this way, would you rather overpay for a consistent, power-hitting Hunter, or for Rowand who could revert to his standard .270 AVG and 15 HRs back at the Cell...

Trav
11-01-2007, 05:37 PM
Despite what Aaron hit in that bandbox in Philly the last 2 years, I saw him suffer through some really poor hitting years with the White Sox. We can't expect him to be the same hitter as was this season if he comes back to face much better A.L. pitching.

Hunter may have a lower career average, but he's been consistent, and has more power which means much more playing half his games at the Cell.

Let me put it this way, would you rather overpay for a consistent, power-hitting Hunter, or for Rowand who could revert to his standard .270 AVG and 15 HRs back at the Cell...

Sox Park isn't known to be a pitchers park. I wouldn't start breaking down the stats of a hitters park versus a hitters park.

spiffie
11-01-2007, 05:45 PM
Fifth, Torii's a way better hitter than Rowand, especially if you discount Aaron's performance in this, his free agent year.
Their averages from 2004-2007:

Rowand (2004-2007): 289/348/474/822. Per/162 games averages: 2B: 39.14, HR: 21.71, SB: 14.00

Hunter (2004-2007): 277/334/484/818. Per/162 games averages: 2B: 37.88, HR: 28.64, SB: 22.08

santo=dorf
11-01-2007, 05:50 PM
Their averages from 2004-2007:

Rowand (2004-2007): 289/348/474/822. Per/162 games averages: 2B: 39.14, HR: 21.71, SB: 14.00

Hunter (2004-2007): 277/334/484/818. Per/162 games averages: 2B: 37.88, HR: 28.64, SB: 22.08
Numbers are evil. Obviously Hunter is WAY better and is worth every bit of $15+ million per.

PennStater98r
11-01-2007, 06:41 PM
In 2007 (a contract year), Hunter played 160 games. However, over the course of the three years before that, he'd missed time for anything from nagging to serious injuries. He seemed to often be playing with those nagging injuries as well - or so said Hawk and D.J. or Ed and Chris when Torii was facing the Sox. To me, that's injury prone. Regardless of how you define an injury (DL to tweaked hammy, back or somethingorother), I think we can all agree that A-Rod has a better track record of not playing with injuries or missing time.

At four years for $75MM, adding in signing bonus, I was figuring $20MM a year. After all, hasn't he already turned down $15MM a year? I started to figure that the Sox are not going to give him a five year deal, and that they'd have to wrap him up somewhere between 3-5 years = 4. I rounded up...

So, why am I rounding down for A-Rod? Right now he's getting between $22MM a year. Sure Boras is going to ask $30MM a year, and sure maybe someone's going to pay it. However, $30MM is what Boras started asking and I know he usually gets what he asks for, but $30MM brings it to a new level. I'd say A-Rod would do pretty well at $25-$27MM a year (which is where I projected him. What's that - a 12% to 20% raise - not to mention guarenteed money for 8-10 years. If it comes down to $25-$27MM for 10 years and he ends up somewhere he wants to be, I think he'd take it.

The big difference here is the total amount of committed money. Sure! In my scenario A-Rod gets $270MM as opposed to Hunter getting $80, and that's certainly worth considering. However, again - it's the best player in baseball vs. someone who might not break the top five centerfielders.

Quick list of possible better CF:

Beltran
Sizemore
Granderson
Wells
Ichiro
Swisher
(future) Pence

I know I was stretching a touch - but I really don't believe that I was in orbit either. I'm closer to earth than you guys are allegating.

Regardless, Hunter has a better shot at playing in a White Sox uniform that A-Rod, but even at $30MM a year he's the better deal than $15MM a year for Hunter - even with the shortened contract on Hunter. If we had A-Rod - a healthy A-Rod, we'd have some milestones to watch him potentially pass - I mean we can't have a World Series title every year - and this year was made stomachable due to Big Jim's 500th and Mark's No-No. Just saying... A-Rod's the better deal.

Hunter has no shot at the Hall. A-Rod does. Sure, I'd like a Series Title every year, but we can't have that. I'd like a little more legends gracing our field. At the age of 35, I have seen precisely two players spend a significant amount of time in a White Sox uniform that are HoF worthy - Fisk and Hurt. Making it three wouldn't be such a bad thing.

CWSpalehoseCWS
11-01-2007, 07:05 PM
In 2007 (a contract year), Hunter played 160 games. However, over the course of the three years before that, he'd missed time for anything from nagging to serious injuries. He seemed to often be playing with those nagging injuries as well - or so said Hawk and D.J. or Ed and Chris when Torii was facing the Sox. To me, that's injury prone. Regardless of how you define an injury (DL to tweaked hammy, back or somethingorother), I think we can all agree that A-Rod has a better track record of not playing with injuries or missing time.

At four years for $75MM, adding in signing bonus, I was figuring $20MM a year. After all, hasn't he already turned down $15MM a year? I started to figure that the Sox are not going to give him a five year deal, and that they'd have to wrap him up somewhere between 3-5 years = 4. I rounded up...

So, why am I rounding down for A-Rod? Right now he's getting between $22MM a year. Sure Boras is going to ask $30MM a year, and sure maybe someone's going to pay it. However, $30MM is what Boras started asking and I know he usually gets what he asks for, but $30MM brings it to a new level. I'd say A-Rod would do pretty well at $25-$27MM a year (which is where I projected him. What's that - a 12% to 20% raise - not to mention guarenteed money for 8-10 years. If it comes down to $25-$27MM for 10 years and he ends up somewhere he wants to be, I think he'd take it.

The big difference here is the total amount of committed money. Sure! In my scenario A-Rod gets $270MM as opposed to Hunter getting $80, and that's certainly worth considering. However, again - it's the best player in baseball vs. someone who might not break the top five centerfielders.

Quick list of possible better CF:

Beltran
Sizemore
Granderson
Wells
Ichiro
Swisher
(future) Pence

I know I was stretching a touch - but I really don't believe that I was in orbit either. I'm closer to earth than you guys are allegating.

Regardless, Hunter has a better shot at playing in a White Sox uniform that A-Rod, but even at $30MM a year he's the better deal than $15MM a year for Hunter - even with the shortened contract on Hunter. If we had A-Rod - a healthy A-Rod, we'd have some milestones to watch him potentially pass - I mean we can't have a World Series title every year - and this year was made stomachable due to Big Jim's 500th and Mark's No-No. Just saying... A-Rod's the better deal.

Hunter has no shot at the Hall. A-Rod does. Sure, I'd like a Series Title every year, but we can't have that. I'd like a little more legends gracing our field. At the age of 35, I have seen precisely two players spend a significant amount of time in a White Sox uniform that are HoF worthy - Fisk and Hurt. Making it three wouldn't be such a bad thing.

The Sox will not sign A-Rod. Kenny already said so.

gregory18n
11-01-2007, 07:42 PM
I vote for Hunter, absolutely!

gogosox16
11-01-2007, 08:58 PM
I'm coming out to say that the first move the sox will make in free agent splashes will be signing hunter to 5/75

HomeFish
11-01-2007, 10:00 PM
I would request that anyone hating on Torii in this thread please recommend who the Sox should get instead. Nobody from our farm system should be considered a serious option.

The pro-Rowand crowd is doing this already, so I'm not attacking them, but there are people who are citing "cheaper solutions" and not naming them.

ilsox7
11-01-2007, 10:02 PM
I don't really care how it is loaded. Average $ per year is much more important to me. I'm sure the Sox look at it that way also. It isn't as if they can't manage a budget. $1.00 in 2007 is worth about $1.05 in 2008 and abouot 1.11 in 2009 and about 1.18 in 2010.

Present value/future value/blah blah blah

This is stuff that the Sox finance folks as well as the players agents all have in their heads and can make quick calls on. If the Sox "backload" a deal, the agent knows in his mind how many 2007 dollars a 2012 dollar is worth. What's the string of cash flows worth - that's the question.

It definitely matters from a finance perspective, but it also matters from a baseball perspective. If Toriiii is being paid less later in the contract, he will be easier to trade if the need arises.

HomeFish
11-01-2007, 10:04 PM
I'm sure there's an economics reason why players prefer backloaded contracts to frontloaded contracts.

ilsox7
11-01-2007, 10:06 PM
I'm sure there's an economics reason why players prefer backloaded contracts to frontloaded contracts.

Do you mean this the other way around? Frontloaded contracts should be preferable.

HomeFish
11-01-2007, 10:12 PM
Do you mean this the other way around? Frontloaded contracts should be preferable.

That's the thing though. Aren't contracts mostly backloaded? Players must have some reason why they prefer it. They dominate the bargaining process so much that I'm sure they wouldn't have backloaded contracts if they didn't like it that way.

The Wunsch
11-01-2007, 10:12 PM
:smile::smile::smile: i'm happy to see williams get off to a fast start this offseason. last year we did squat.

sign hunter

sign middle infeilders

sign middle relievers

and its ok to get rid of some of the oldness and slowness

QCIASOXFAN
11-01-2007, 10:14 PM
I'm coming out to say that the first move the sox will make in free agent splashes will be signing hunter to 5/75
I'll buy this also. Hunter will be in CF next year.

ilsox7
11-01-2007, 10:18 PM
That's the thing though. Aren't contracts mostly backloaded? Players must have some reason why they prefer it. They dominate the bargaining process so much that I'm sure they wouldn't have backloaded contracts if they didn't like it that way.

I think they are backloaded b/c teams prefer it that way. Players make so much money that they basically just view the annual average salary as a status symbol, IMO. Teams on the other hand are dealing with multiple players, so the incremental savings by backloading most contracts are significant. Also, from a player's perspective, it just seems like they should get more money as the calendar flips over or else they might view it as taking a paycut.

It's also quite possible (likely?) that a player can essentially take a loan out against his future earnings and diminish the amount of money he is losing due to time value of money. It's all very interesting, though b/c, as you point out, most contracts are backloaded when it makes more financial sense from the player's perspective to have the opposite.

soxfanreggie
11-01-2007, 10:23 PM
With Cameron out to start the season (25 games), how much will his FA value plummet? Does that impact what we should think about signing him?

I am all for signing a FA CF, but I hope we do it soon. I don't want to hem and haw around making our first upgrade. Let's get out there and get a deal done. No need to rush and overpay but also no sense in waiting forever to get something worked on, only to have the person sign with someone else.

As for someone suggesting we frontload the contract, I would rather backload it. You take advantage of the time value of money, basically by backloading, you invest what you would have spent and make a lot of interest. If we aren't over the payroll for that year, we could make several hundred thousand in interest by backloading instead of frontloading. However, any good agent would know this and ask for a higher salary in case of backloading.

santo=dorf
11-01-2007, 10:32 PM
Do you mean this the other way around? Frontloaded contracts should be preferable.
No.

The player wants his salary to be highest in their final year because when the contract ends, if the team offers arbitration, he gets at least 80% of that for next season.

getonbckthr
11-01-2007, 10:40 PM
If we are willing to give that much to Torii Hunter why don't we spend a little more for the best CF'r on the market, Andruw Jones?

Rockabilly
11-01-2007, 10:41 PM
my 2008 lineup looks like this that will get us back in the series

1 Luis Castillo 2B ( free agent)
2 Carl Crawford LF ( L Broadway, N Masset, and Gavin Floyd)
3 Jim Thome DH
4 Paul Konerko 1B
5 Torrii Hunter CF(free agent)
6 Jermaine Dye RF
7 AJ C
8 Joe Crede 3B
9 Rafeal Furcal SS ( J Garland) going to LA

Bench R Sweeney OF, J Owens OF, J Fields 1B-3B, D Richar Utily, T Hall C

Rotation
Mark Buehrle
Javier Vazquez
Paul Byrd ( free agent)
John Danks
Gio Gonzalez

bullpen
Boone Logan
Scott Proctor ( part of the Garland trade)
Matt Thornton
Chad Cordero ( Chris Carter, B Anderson and another mid level prospect
Mike Macdougal
Bobby Jenks

KRS1
11-01-2007, 10:43 PM
As for someone suggesting we frontload the contract, I would rather backload it. You take advantage of the time value of money, basically by backloading, you invest what you would have spent and make a lot of interest. If we aren't over the payroll for that year, we could make several hundred thousand in interest by backloading instead of frontloading. However, any good agent would know this and ask for a higher salary in case of backloading.

I don't really agree with this at all. One big reason, but not the only one, is that having more money on the back end of a contract for a guy who is going to be in the latter half of his thirties makes him that much harder to move if need be. Not to mention I am going to make the assumption that he just plain won't be worth as much at the end of his deal as he is at the beginning of it.

The whole investing thing is kind of a non factor IMO, as the people who are paying his salary have most of their money tied up in investments regardless. It's not like they just have all of it in liquid cash sitting in various banks(and even then, it's a good investment in itself sitting in a bank accumulating interest). I find it hard to believe the money men would vastly change their financial strategy because of money they would have spent on a baseball player.

voodoochile
11-01-2007, 10:46 PM
No.

The player wants his salary to be highest in their final year because when the contract ends, if the team offers arbitration, he gets at least 80% of that for next season.

The flip side of that is that money is worth more today than it is 5 years from now and extra money today can be invested and earn interest or capital gains over those 5 years.

Invested wisely, money can grow a lot more than the player will gain from the extra money gained from having a higher arbitration award.

In fact, if a final year contract is worth 5M more than the first year of the contract, the player stands to gain an extra 4M from an arbitration award or FA offer from their team. However if the player has 5M more in the first year of that contract, they should be able to earn nearly $2M over the next 5 years in capital growth and income (minimum). In addition, the 5M extra at the end of the contract is really only worth about 4M in today's dollars, so it's not as big of an issue as it seems.

Money today is simply worth more than money tomorrow so the extra few million that might or might not be earned through a home team arb/FA contract simply doesn't mean that much.

ilsox7
11-01-2007, 10:49 PM
In fact, if a final year contract is worth 5M more than the first year of the contract, the player stands to gain an extra 4M from an arbitration award or FA offer from their team. However if the player has 5M more in the first year of that contract, they should be able to earn nearly $2M over the next 5 years in capital growth and income (minimum). In addition, the 5M extra at the end of the contract is really only worth about 4M in today's dollars, so it's not as big of an issue as it seems.


Not only that, but players who end up relying on going to arbitration after a multi-year deal are few and far between (as far as I can tell). So it really has no bearing on the matter. Plus, as you have pointed out, you can generally overcome the limited benefit of the 80% arbitration clause by making money on your previously earned money.

getonbckthr
11-01-2007, 10:49 PM
The flip side of that is that money is worth more today than it is 5 years from now and extra money today can be invested and earn interest or capital gains over those 5 years.

Invested wisely, money can grow a lot more than the player will gain from the extra money gained from having a higher arbitration award.

In fact, if a final year contract is worth 5M more than the first year of the contract, the player stands to gain an extra 4M from an arbitration award or FA offer from their team. However if the player has 5M more in the first year of that contract, they should be able to earn nearly $2M over the next 5 years in capital growth and income (minimum). In addition, the 5M extra at the end of the contract is really only worth about 4M in today's dollars, so it's not as big of an issue as it seems.

Money today is simply worth more than money tomorrow so the extra few million that might or might not be earned through a home team arb/FA contract simply doesn't mean that much.
Whoa, dude. Is this one of those things that comes to you when your high? Thats some mind-blowing ****. I'm also serious. I feel like this little post could have been a line from the movie, "Dazed and Confused."

voodoochile
11-01-2007, 10:51 PM
Whoa, dude. Is this one of those things that comes to you when your high? Thats some mind-blowing ****. I'm also serious. I feel like this little post could have been a line from the movie, "Dazed and Confused."

I don't get high anymore, and the reasoning is based on elementary level finance and economics.

KRS1
11-01-2007, 10:51 PM
If we are willing to give that much to Torii Hunter why don't we spend a little more for the best CF'r on the market, Andruw Jones?

I would also rather have Andruw much more than Torii. However, there is the question of what each player wants in terms of length of contract to factor in along with the $$. I don't think Torii is worth 15MM at all, but I also don't think Andruw is worth 20MM. I just hope that their demands don't dictate the market that heavily.

ilsox7
11-01-2007, 10:52 PM
Whoa, dude. Is this one of those things that comes to you when your high? Thats some mind-blowing ****. I'm also serious. I feel like this little post could have been a line from the movie, "Dazed and Confused."

Not to take anything away from Voodoo, but he is explaining basic finance. As he has owned a business, I am sure he is well versed in the topic. He explains it quite well, too.

getonbckthr
11-01-2007, 10:57 PM
I don't get high anymore, and the reasoning is based on elementary level finance and economics.

Not to take anything away from Voodoo, but he is explaining basic finance. As he has owned a business, I am sure he is well versed in the topic. He explains it quite well, too.
I don't know something about the post just blew my mind.

chisox77
11-01-2007, 11:10 PM
If the Sox can't get Hunter, maybe Cameron is an option. Then the Sox can open a bar in his honor, on the concourse, somewhere in the right field, centerfield area. Proceeds can help pay ARod's salary.


:cool:

FarWestChicago
11-01-2007, 11:16 PM
I don't know something about the post just blew my mind.It was probably the drugs. Party on, Dude!

Hokiesox
11-01-2007, 11:17 PM
my 2008 lineup looks like this that will get us back in the series

1 Luis Castillo 2B ( free agent)
2 Carl Crawford LF ( L Broadway, N Masset, and Gavin Floyd)
3 Jim Thome DH
4 Paul Konerko 1B
5 Torrii Hunter CF(free agent)
6 Jermaine Dye RF
7 AJ C
8 Joe Crede 3B
9 Rafeal Furcal SS ( J Garland) going to LA

Bench R Sweeney OF, J Owens OF, J Fields 1B-3B, D Richar Utily, T Hall C

Rotation
Mark Buehrle
Javier Vazquez
Paul Byrd ( free agent)
John Danks
Gio Gonzalez

bullpen
Boone Logan
Scott Proctor ( part of the Garland trade)
Matt Thornton
Chad Cordero ( Chris Carter, B Anderson and another mid level prospect
Mike Macdougal
Bobby Jenks

Pass the Kool-aid.

thedudeabides
11-01-2007, 11:21 PM
With Cameron out to start the season (25 games), how much will his FA value plummet? Does that impact what we should think about signing him?

I am all for signing a FA CF, but I hope we do it soon. I don't want to hem and haw around making our first upgrade. Let's get out there and get a deal done. No need to rush and overpay but also no sense in waiting forever to get something worked on, only to have the person sign with someone else.

As for someone suggesting we frontload the contract, I would rather backload it. You take advantage of the time value of money, basically by backloading, you invest what you would have spent and make a lot of interest. If we aren't over the payroll for that year, we could make several hundred thousand in interest by backloading instead of frontloading. However, any good agent would know this and ask for a higher salary in case of backloading.

I really don't want anything to do with Cameron. He is a good defensive CF, but does not fit what we need offensively. Also, what do you do for the first 25 games of the year? If you march Owens out there and he is successful, what do you do when Cameron gets back? Or if he is bad and the Sox get off to a slow start, they would dig themselves a hole.

I think they need to make a decision on signing a free agent, or go with an in house solution and spend money elsewhere.

getonbckthr
11-01-2007, 11:42 PM
It was probably the drugs. Party on, Dude!
I do not do drugs, surprisingly that is a fact.

JermaineDye05
11-01-2007, 11:45 PM
Pass the Kool-aid.

Yeah I can never see that happening. Especially the TB trade. One can dream though I guess. The rotation would be bad though.

gregory18n
11-02-2007, 02:24 AM
This IS dream season. I love rockabilly's squad, but i wouldn't trade Garland for Furcal. I would also look to sign Mike Timlin for set-up.

gregory18n
11-02-2007, 03:28 AM
Still considering Rockabilly's squad;
I was really impressed with Kaz Matsui during the 1st 2 playoff series, is he worth a shot if we can't get Luis Castillo?

Grzegorz
11-02-2007, 05:51 AM
Still considering Rockabilly's squad;
I was really impressed with Kaz Matsui during the 1st 2 playoff series, is he worth a shot if we can't get Luis Castillo?

Wasn't Luis Castillo the guy identified (whether erroneous or not) as being the bad influence of Jose Reyes?

getonbckthr
11-02-2007, 08:33 AM
Wasn't Luis Castillo the guy identified (whether erroneous or not) as being the bad influence of Jose Reyes?
How tight and straight-forward this team plays at times a guy to loosen things up might not be a horrible idea. Paulie needs a party during his bad periods.

DumpJerry
11-02-2007, 08:42 AM
How tight and straight-forward this team plays at times a guy to loosen things up might not be a horrible idea. Paulie needs a party during his bad periods.
You're right. Ozzie is wound up so tightly, he never shows his passions. Ozzie is the Tom Landry of MLB.:rolleyes:

I guess we need to bring Brain Anderson back to loosen Paulie up.

kraut83
11-02-2007, 08:43 AM
Yeah I can never see that happening. Especially the TB trade. One can dream though I guess. The rotation would be bad though.

I think every trade proposal I've seen on WSI in the last month turns the rotation into a disaster waiting to happen.

PorkChopExpress
11-02-2007, 09:04 AM
I would request that anyone hating on Torii in this thread please recommend who the Sox should get instead. Nobody from our farm system should be considered a serious option.

The pro-Rowand crowd is doing this already, so I'm not attacking them, but there are people who are citing "cheaper solutions" and not naming them.

I do consider Owens an option. He is better than wasting $75mil. But I truly want a trade to happen. Boston wants to get rid of Crisp. At $6mil per year or so for the next two years, he is a better option than Hunter at $15mil for the next four or five years.

I have also heard rumors that Philly may be looking for a 3B. Why not try to work out a deal for Shane Victorino or Michael Bourn. I would rather have either over Hunter at the enormous salary he is seeking.

There are rumored talks with the Yanks about Crede. What will it take to pry Cabrera away?

It may not be possible, but Houston was mentioned as being interested in Hunter and Rowand. Let them make the mistake and try to pry Pence away.

I've heard Willy Taveras' name mentioned in some trade rumors.

Free agent-wise, there might not be better options than Hunter or Rowand, but that doesn't mean we have to waste money on one of them. That being said, I feel like we have been linked to Hunter for some time now, and for whatever reason, Kenny really wants him. I could see KW signing him in which case I will root for him, but I will still think it was a mistake.

misty60481
11-02-2007, 09:32 AM
We sure dont need any more slap hitters that run fast, thats why we were so bad this year. Check the records the last time we went below 200 HRS. was 1999, that year was terrible, we hit over 200 from 2000 to 2006 and finished at .500 or above every year. Last year we didnt hit our 200 and look what happened. The Cell is made for power hitters, take advantage of it. Besides who wants to go to game and see a bunch of Owens, Bourn type of players.

hi im skot
11-02-2007, 09:35 AM
We sure dont need any more slap hitters that run fast, thats why we were so bad this year.

The Sox were bad because of poor pitching.

The offense was rough, without question, but how many games did the Sox bullpen give away in 2007?

Jurr
11-02-2007, 10:11 AM
Torii Hunter makes our pitching staff better. Period.
Torii Hunter makes our offense more productive based on his ability to hit for contact, power, and his ability to run the bases. Period.
Torii Hunter is a gamer, and he would blend in beautifully with the Sox clubhouse. Period.

Sign this man now.

jabrch
11-02-2007, 10:12 AM
We sure dont need any more slap hitters that run fast, thats why we were so bad this year.

There's nothing wrong with guys who put the bat on the ball, get on base, and then run fast. In fact, good teams usually have some of those guys.


Check the records the last time we went below 200 HRS. was 1999, that year was terrible, we hit over 200 from 2000 to 2006 and finished at .500 or above every year. Last year we didnt hit our 200 and look what happened.

We hit 190 HRs. Yes - that's short of 200. But you can't really be telling me that if we hit 10 more HRs we'd have won enough games to have made a difference. We were 6th in baseball in HRs with 190. In 2005, when we won it all, we were 5th in baseball with 200. ***** - you can't seriously tell me that you think not hitting 200 HRs is the difference.

A team needs balance. You can use a term that some folks use pejoratively like "slap hitter" but there are some LEGENDARY players who also fit that description. What we need is players to play better at whatever they do. If it is Owens, he needs to get on base more and run more. If it is Thome, he needs to play more games. Dye and PK can't have the 1st half that they had...Crede can't...well...do nothing...

But there is nothing at all wrong with guys who make contact and run fast as long as they do that well. Any statement to the contrary is pure fantasy.

russ99
11-02-2007, 10:15 AM
It may not be possible, but Houston was mentioned as being interested in Hunter and Rowand. Let them make the mistake and try to pry Pence away.

Pence is untouchable. The only reason the Astros are in the market for a CF is to move Pence to RF.

That said, Luke Scott is a decent hitting outfielder the Sox could get for LF, that could be available and the Astros are really thin on starting pitching prospects. Maybe Floyd and/or another SP candidate (not Danks or Broadway, though) could pry him away.

Also, there's really only one reason the Sox won't consider Andruw Jones, and that being Boras.

Jurr
11-02-2007, 10:16 AM
Pence is untouchable. The only reason the Astros are in the market for a CF is to move Pence to RF.

That said, Luke Scott is a decent hitting outfielder (for LF) that could be available and the Astros are really thin on starting pitching prospects. Maybe Floyd and/or another SP candidate (not Danks or Broadway, though) could pry him away.

Also, there's really only one reason the Sox won't consider Andruw Jones, and that being Boras.
I'm not really big on Jones. He can mash, but the Sox need less strikeouts and more OBP. Torii Hunter can get us what we need.

oeo
11-02-2007, 10:31 AM
It may not be possible, but Houston was mentioned as being interested in Hunter and Rowand. Let them make the mistake and try to pry Pence away.

Yeah, as in, they want one or the other. They're already set at two other outfield positions...and they'll even pick up a RF if they have to; keeping Pence in CF.

Hokiesox
11-02-2007, 10:39 AM
Yeah I can never see that happening. Especially the TB trade. One can dream though I guess. The rotation would be bad though.

The bench would be worse.

jabrch
11-02-2007, 10:40 AM
Also, there's really only one reason the Sox won't consider Andruw Jones, and that being Boras.

That's just wrong.

Here's the PRIMARY reason why they won't sign him. He hit .222/.311/.413 last year.

Here's the secondary reason - he has already said he doesn't plan on taking a paycut and he wants a long term deal.

Here's another - He has just completed his 12th season in MLB - there's reason to believe his best days are gone.

Here's another - even in his best of days, he's a career .263/.342 hitter - not the type of guy you give 5+ years and 14+ MM$

The Sox will deal with Scott Boras when he has something that they want that is priced reasonably. If what he has to offer is Andruw Jones for 5 years and 75mm then I hope to heaven that KW continues to not even pick up the phone when he calls.

There is a myth that the Sox won't deal with Boras under any circumstance - and there are no facts to prove that.

Hokiesox
11-02-2007, 10:42 AM
Torii Hunter makes our pitching staff better. Period.
Torii Hunter makes our offense more productive based on his ability to hit for contact, power, and his ability to run the bases. Period.
Torii Hunter is a gamer, and he would blend in beautifully with the Sox clubhouse. Period.

Sign this man now.

Would there have to be the obligatory AJ-Hunter fisticuffs before they could be teammates again?

I can see it now with Kenny, Ozzie, and the two of them in the locker room, "OK boys, please don't injure each other."

soxfanatlanta
11-02-2007, 10:47 AM
That's just wrong.

Here's the PRIMARY reason why they won't sign him. He hit .222/.311/.413 last year.

Here's the secondary reason - he has already said he doesn't plan on taking a paycut and he wants a long term deal.

Here's another - He has just completed his 12th season in MLB - there's reason to believe his best days are gone.

Here's another - even in his best of days, he's a career .263/.342 hitter - not the type of guy you give 5+ years and 14+ MM$

The Sox will deal with Scott Boras when he has something that they want that is priced reasonably. If what he has to offer is Andruw Jones for 5 years and 75mm then I hope to heaven that KW continues to not even pick up the phone when he calls.

There is a myth that the Sox won't deal with Boras under any circumstance - and there are no facts to prove that.

Thank you. I do not want the Pillsbury Doughboy getting destroyed by AL pitching for that much money.

D. TODD
11-02-2007, 10:48 AM
Would there have to be the obligatory AJ-Hunter fisticuffs before they could be teammates again?

I can see it now with Kenny, Ozzie, and the two of them in the locker room, "OK boys, please don't injure each other."AJ and Torii are pretty good friends they get along great on and off the field.

PorkChopExpress
11-02-2007, 11:05 AM
I'm not really big on Jones. He can mash, but the Sox need less strikeouts and more OBP. Torii Hunter can get us what we need.

If you want less strikeouts and more obp, then Hunter is not your guy.

AZChiSoxFan
11-02-2007, 11:24 AM
I don't get high anymore

Of course, you don't get high any less, either. :redneck

Sorry, I know, really bad attempt at a joke.

AZChiSoxFan
11-02-2007, 11:25 AM
Pass the Kool-aid.

I had the exact same thought when I read that post.

SBSoxFan
11-02-2007, 11:32 AM
I would also rather have Andruw much more than Torii. However, there is the question of what each player wants in terms of length of contract to factor in along with the $$. I don't think Torii is worth 15MM at all, but I also don't think Andruw is worth 20MM. I just hope that their demands don't dictate the market that heavily.

I'm for talking to Jones as well. Since he had such a poor year last year he may be willing to take a little less in both money and years, or perhaps some creative/incentive-laden financing. If he rebounds, he can make a quick turnaround and go after another big-money, long-term FA contract, and the Sox get a couple more years to work on a long-term and less expensive solution in CF. If Jones doesn't rebound, the Sox aren't tied up with a large salary for very long.

jabrch
11-02-2007, 11:40 AM
I'd much rather put Sweeney, BA or Owens out there for the minimum rather than tie up a ton of money over time as Jones indicated he is looking to get, and Boras has indicated that they feel he is worth.

spiffie
11-02-2007, 11:47 AM
I'd much rather put Sweeney, BA or Owens out there for the minimum rather than tie up a ton of money over time as Jones indicated he is looking to get, and Boras has indicated that they feel he is worth.
What do you do with the resources you save, especially if Uribe resigns as well. People don't want to overspend at SS. They don't want to overspend in CF. They don't want to overspend on the bullpen. And in each case its very justified. But are we going to win with a lineup of
Owens
Richar
Thome
Konerko
Dye
Pierzysnki
Crede
Fields
Uribe
bench of Ozuna, Sweeney, Hall, Anderson
and basically the same pitching staff and bullpen as last year? Because that is a very strong possibility, that the only changes might be minor bullpen and bench tweaks. Do you feel like that's a division winner? I guess one good thing would be that it would mean come the next offseason we have a lot of cash off the books (Garland, Uribe, Crede, possibly Thome) and could then make some bigger moves.

jabrch
11-02-2007, 11:51 AM
What do you do with the resources you save, especially if Uribe resigns as well. People don't want to overspend at SS. They don't want to overspend in CF. They don't want to overspend on the bullpen. And in each case its very justified. But are we going to win with a lineup of
Owens
Richar
Thome
Konerko
Dye
Pierzysnki
Crede
Fields
Uribe
bench of Ozuna, Sweeney, Hall, Anderson
and basically the same pitching staff and bullpen as last year? Because that is a very strong possibility, that the only changes might be minor bullpen and bench tweaks. Do you feel like that's a division winner? I guess one good thing would be that it would mean come the next offseason we have a lot of cash off the books (Garland, Uribe, Crede, possibly Thome) and could then make some bigger moves.


I'm sure we can find some players who are talented who are not past their prime who are willing to come and play here for good money. If the only CF option is 5/75 for Andruw Jones or the same for Hunter or Rowand, I'd just assume pass and spend the money elsewhere. It is unfortunate that this is a soft year for FA IFs, cuz we could use a 2B/SS. But I'd rather go through another bad year, and lose 90 games again than feel like we are overreacting to one bad year and signing a bad contract for a long period of time that will make us worse of the long term.

And I highly doubt we will come back with that lineup.

russ99
11-02-2007, 11:54 AM
I'm for talking to Jones as well. Since he had such a poor year last year he may be willing to take a little less in both money and years, or perhaps some creative/incentive-laden financing. If he rebounds, he can make a quick turnaround and go after another big-money, long-term FA contract, and the Sox get a couple more years to work on a long-term and less expensive solution in CF. If Jones doesn't rebound, the Sox aren't tied up with a large salary for very long.

"willing to take a little less in both money and years"

Considering Boras' dealings with the Braves in regards to Andruw already, that's not going to happen. Besides, I'm sure Boras will come up with a 25 page beautifully bound report proving last year was a fluke.

I guess there's always blackballing and collusion... (should I have tealed that? :D:)

PorkChopExpress
11-02-2007, 12:04 PM
Rowand
849 AB
93 HR
347 RBI
.286 hitter

Hunter
1234 AB
192 HR
711 RBI
.271 hitter

Is this supposed to show how Hunter is a better hitter? Because it doesn't. It shows his cumulative numbers are larger because he has had more time to accumulate them.

SBSoxFan
11-02-2007, 12:25 PM
"willing to take a little less in both money and years"

Considering Boras' dealings with the Braves in regards to Andruw already, that's not going to happen. Besides, I'm sure Boras will come up with a 25 page beautifully bound report proving last year was a fluke.

I guess there's always blackballing and collusion... (should I have tealed that? :D:)

Borass turns perception into reality. If they're not interested, you move on to the next one. Good luck to both you and the team who gives a guy a 5 year, $100 M contract who hit 220 last year.

As others have stated, I think it's fruitful to talk to anyone who may help you. This includes Hunter, Jones, and Rowand. Never having been involved in running a baseball team, however, I don't know if that's feasible.

russ99
11-02-2007, 12:27 PM
Borass turns perception into reality. If they're not interested, you move on to the next one. Good luck to both you and the team who gives a guy a 5 year, $100 M contract who hit 220 last year.

As others have stated, I think it's fruitful to talk to anyone who may help you. This includes Hunter, Jones, and Rowand. Never having been involved in running a baseball team, however, I don't know if that's feasible.

Absolutely agree. Avoiding Boras with the vast number of players and prospects he represents is impossible. With the Sox' track record and what Boras considers a reasonable salary, I'd definately say Jones is pretty low on the Sox wishlist.

However, I'm sure some dumb and desperate GM is going to cave and show Andruw the money, considering he led the NL in homers a few years ago. Might even be the Yankees, since they're suckers for overpayed outfield reclamation projects.

SouthSideLove
11-02-2007, 12:31 PM
Is anyone worried about the SS situation? I know this is a forum about the CF prospects, but I was wondering what deals you could see that would involve getting both a decent CF and an SS who doesn't pound down a million churros before the game.

russ99
11-02-2007, 12:33 PM
doesn't pound down a million churros before the game.

Nice! :D:

I think all that hinges on if the Sox can get a shortstop before Uribe' option deadline. If not, I'm afraid we're stuck with Juan at least until spring, when (if) he proves he's in better shape and is a more tradeable asset.

SouthSideLove
11-02-2007, 12:34 PM
What about a possible trade for Tejada? We know he wants out of Baltimore. What do you think we'd have to give up for him?

wdelaney72
11-02-2007, 12:44 PM
Is this supposed to show how Hunter is a better hitter? Because it doesn't. It shows his cumulative numbers are larger because he has had more time to accumulate them.

You have a point, but stats aren't needed for this conversation. Aaron Rowand isn't fit to mow Torii Hunter's lawn, yet alone compare as baseball players.

PorkChopExpress
11-02-2007, 01:20 PM
You have a point, but stats aren't needed for this conversation. Aaron Rowand isn't fit to mow Torii Hunter's lawn, yet alone compare as baseball players.

Why not?

getonbckthr
11-02-2007, 01:26 PM
What about a possible trade for Tejada? We know he wants out of Baltimore. What do you think we'd have to give up for him?
Broadway, Sweeney, Egbert and probably 1 more prospect.

spiffie
11-02-2007, 01:30 PM
You have a point, but stats aren't needed for this conversation. Aaron Rowand isn't fit to mow Torii Hunter's lawn, yet alone compare as baseball players.

Why not?
Because apparently Aaron Rowand is the worst player in the history of baseball. Apparently his crimes are:
-having only 2 very good years in the last 4 years.
-crashing into walls
-being labeled as "grindy"
-playing too well so that when Brian Anderson came up hitting a buck eighty it made people miss Rowand, instead of recognizing that Brian just needed love and understanding from everyone in the world starting with Ozzie.
-not hitting 40 HR yearly.

wdelaney72
11-02-2007, 01:38 PM
Hunter = Very Good Player
Rowand = Average at best

I congratulate Rowand on putting up career numbers in his contract year and he certainly did a good job of endearing himself to the people of Chicago. As a ballplayer, he was very average and seemed to unnecessarily like to run into things.

Let the Yankees have him.

SouthSideLove
11-02-2007, 01:42 PM
You have a point, but stats aren't needed for this conversation. Aaron Rowand isn't fit to mow Torii Hunter's lawn, yet alone compare as baseball players.

This is an outright blasphemous statement, IMHO. I firmly believe that we it not for the bureaucracy in the MLB Gold Glove voting (factoring in offense as well), that Rowand should have won the AL CF Gold Glove in 2005. Compare their stats defensively, and you'll see that Rowand is better in his young career than Hunter is now. I think that year Rowand played 150 + games compared to 90+ games from Hunter.

PorkChopExpress
11-02-2007, 01:48 PM
Hunter = Very Good Player
Rowand = Average at best

I congratulate Rowand on putting up career numbers in his contract year and he certainly did a good job of endearing himself to the people of Chicago. As a ballplayer, he was very average and seemed to unnecessarily like to run into things.

Let the Yankees have him.

If 2007 was a career year, I sure hope he falls back down to his 2004 numbers.

And what specifically is it that Hunter has/does that makes him a very good player that Rowand does not have/do? You keep saying one is better than the other, but you haven't explained why.

wdelaney72
11-02-2007, 01:52 PM
Rowand did not deserve the Gold Glove in 2005. Torii was injured that year and probably should not have won it, but it doesn't mean Rowand should have. Rowand can move in line behind:

Vernon Wells
Carl Crawford
Grady Sizemore

SouthSideLove
11-02-2007, 01:56 PM
First of all, Carl Crawford is registered as a LF last I checked. Thirdly, Rowands defensive numbers were better than that of Wells and Sizemore that year, so this argument is over.

I am not saying that it is in the best interest of our team to pick up Rowand. And I am not jumping into the Rowand love fest by any stretch, but I look at the numbers and the potential long-term, and I see a move for Rowand being more prudent at this point in time that making a move for an aging Hunter.

Period.

wdelaney72
11-02-2007, 01:57 PM
Hunter reads the ball off the bat better.
Hunter mas more athleticism to make difficult catches.
Hunter has more consistent pop in his bat.
Hunter runs the bases better.
Hunter has a better arm.
Hunter hits bettr with runners in scoring position.

He's done all of these things better than Rowand over a longer period of time and is still young enough to continue to do so.

I realize that Hunter doesn't have the fire and the passion or a Bears jersey, but there's a reason why he keeps winning the gold glove for CF... he's been the one of the best (if not the best) CF in the Amercian League for quite some time.

wdelaney72
11-02-2007, 02:00 PM
First of all, Carl Crawford is registered as a LF last I checked. Thirdly, Rowands defensive numbers were better than that of Wells and Sizemore that year, so this argument is over.

I am not saying that it is in the best interest of our team to pick up Rowand. And I am not jumping into the Rowand love fest by any stretch, but I look at the numbers and the potential long-term, and I see a move for Rowand being more prudent at this point in time that making a move for an aging Hunter.

Period.


Point taken on Crawford. You can have your stats, I'm taking Grady Sizemore, Torrii Hunter, and Vernon Wells every day of the week over Rowand.

SouthSideLove
11-02-2007, 02:02 PM
If you were the GM of this team, given it's current condition, are you willing to give Hunter the amount he's asking for, despite some of the risks with age and injury? If the answer is yes, then you are more intrepid than I am with this issue.

I personally would rather not see either one on the Sox, and simply try and get Tejada. Owens is doing fine, and with Fields in left and Crede at third for one more year, we could have a legit shot

wdelaney72
11-02-2007, 02:07 PM
The Sox desperately need a CF, a SS or both. We have nothing legit in the farm for either. It's unfortunate, but sometimes you have to overpay to fill a need. Yes, we'd likely have to overpay for Torii, but it's a necessity at this point and the best option. He's a proven veteran who's already comfortable hitting in the AL Central and he's get exceptional defensive skills.

Tejada is nothing but question marks coming off of his injury, as well as, his well documented association to sterroids.

Kenny should sign Torii.

SouthSideLove
11-02-2007, 02:09 PM
Signing Torii makes it harder for us to simultaneously bring in another impact SS, because he's asking for too much. So it's really one or the other, SS or CF. As I see it, we need a near .300 hitter who can fill that two spot and flash leather in the infield.

soxfan13
11-02-2007, 02:12 PM
Signing Torii makes it harder for us to simultaneously bring in another impact SS, because he's asking for too much. So it's really one or the other, SS or CF. As I see it, we need a near .300 hitter who can fill that two spot and flash leather in the infield.

Just wondering who the other impact SS's are that are available?

pmck003
11-02-2007, 02:13 PM
You do realize that Hunter only has 385 more at bats then rowand.If Rowand can hit 99 HRS and knock in 364 RBIs in those 385 at bats to catch up then by all means sign ROWAND.

Maybe I'm missing something in your post, but I see Rowand with 2664 at bats to Hunter's 4492.

PorkChopExpress
11-02-2007, 02:14 PM
Hunter reads the ball off the bat better.
Hunter mas more athleticism to make difficult catches.
Hunter has more consistent pop in his bat.
Hunter runs the bases better.
Hunter has a better arm.
Hunter hits bettr with runners in scoring position.

He's done all of these things better than Rowand over a longer period of time and is still young enough to continue to do so.

I realize that Hunter doesn't have the fire and the passion or a Bears jersey, but there's a reason why he keeps winning the gold glove for CF... he's been the one of the best (if not the best) CF in the Amercian League for quite some time.

I don't agree with everything you've said, but I can't sit here and argue that Rowand is the better defensive CF. Offensively, I still think they are equivalent, with Hunter having a slight edge in situational hitting and power. But my question to you was based off of your statement that one was very good and one was average at best. Even if everything you say is taken as true, Rowand is not average at best. He is right up there with Hunter as a very good player.

As I have said before, I do not want to overpay for either of these guys, but Rowand at 12-13mil/year starting at 30 yrs old is a better option than Hunter at 15mil/year starting at 32 yrs old.

wdelaney72
11-02-2007, 02:14 PM
You are correct, we do need someone to leadoff, but I'm not sure if such a player is available... and we still have the same problem if Rowand were to be signed. A quality leadoff SS simply is not available at this time.

Leadoff right now probably has Richar penciled in (ouch! that hurts), assuming Fields plays left. Otherwise, its' Jerry Owens (that hurts, too).

SouthSideLove
11-02-2007, 02:15 PM
Impact SS? Look at the field, make an offer, and you have your pick. Look at Tejada, Furcal, or anyone. Just make sure that your starting SS isn't Uribe on opening day.

soxfan13
11-02-2007, 02:17 PM
Maybe I'm missing something in your post, but I see Rowand with 2664 at bats to Hunter's 4492.

Yeah im a schmuck LOL I misread the whole thing LMAO:redface:

soxfan13
11-02-2007, 02:21 PM
Impact SS? Look at the field, make an offer, and you have your pick. Look at Tejada, Furcal, or anyone. Just make sure that your starting SS isn't Uribe on opening day.

Wow is it that easy. I do agree that I dont want Uribe as our SS but you also make it sound like this is Xbox and you can turn the fair trade option off.

wdelaney72
11-02-2007, 02:21 PM
Tejada scares me coming off a bad injury and his sterroid association.
Furcal in a trade works for me, but that's assuming the Dodgers get Rodriguez, which I don't see happening.

Let me elaborate that I don't like the idea of Richar leading off, I just don't know who else they could do It.

It's definitely a hole to fill.

ode to veeck
11-02-2007, 02:22 PM
Because apparently Aaron Rowand is the worst player in the history of baseball. Apparently his crimes are:
-having only 2 very good years in the last 4 years.
-crashing into walls
-being labeled as "grindy"
-playing too well so that when Brian Anderson came up hitting a buck eighty it made people miss Rowand, instead of recognizing that Brian just needed love and understanding from everyone in the world starting with Ozzie.
-not hitting 40 HR yearly.

Don't forget Rowand's "bad routes"

wdelaney72
11-02-2007, 02:25 PM
I don't agree with everything you've said, but I can't sit here and argue that Rowand is the better defensive CF. Offensively, I still think they are equivalent, with Hunter having a slight edge in situational hitting and power. But my question to you was based off of your statement that one was very good and one was average at best. Even if everything you say is taken as true, Rowand is not average at best. He is right up there with Hunter as a very good player.

As I have said before, I do not want to overpay for either of these guys, but Rowand at 12-13mil/year starting at 30 yrs old is a better option than Hunter at 15mil/year starting at 32 yrs old.

I gues we'll just respectfully disagree as I see a signifficant difference in their abilities.

chisoxfan83
11-02-2007, 02:35 PM
Don't forget Rowand's "bad routes"

just remember Rowand's bad read he took on that ball top of the 9th in that september game in 2005 that crede won with the walk off against the indians, it wouldn't have gotten to that point if it wasn't for the bad read and might not have made the playoffs with the roll they were on. Torii would be the better fit but who says we can't have hunter in center and rowand in left

PorkChopExpress
11-02-2007, 02:38 PM
Furcal in a trade works for me, but that's assuming the Dodgers get Rodriguez, which I don't see happening.

My understanding was they have a rookie, Hu, who they would like to use at SS, and they want to unload Furcal's contract. At the trade deadline there were talks of a swap for Contreras, one bad contract for another. I think we can swing a trade for Furcal whether or not the Dodgers sign A-Rod.

While I don't agree with overpaying Hunter, if we managed to get Furcal and Hunter this offseason losing only one starter in the Furcal swap, I think we have improved a large amount for next year already. Just work on the bullpen and we're set.

SBSoxFan
11-02-2007, 02:39 PM
You are correct, we do need someone to leadoff, but I'm not sure if such a player is available... and we still have the same problem if Rowand were to be signed. A quality leadoff SS simply is not available at this time.

Leadoff right now probably has Richar penciled in (ouch! that hurts), assuming Fields plays left. Otherwise, its' Jerry Owens (that hurts, too).

That leadoff man is coming from CF or SS. In those categories (play either CF or SS and leadoff), the Sox have only Jerry Owens. The only FA who fits those categories is David Eckstein. So, sign Hunter, sign Rowand, you still need a leadoff batter ... who can play SS.

If you can move Crede, then you put Fields back at 3B and move Owens to LF and let him lead off. Then you can plug in a FA centefielder. Maybe even take a shot at Pods again playing LF and leading off. Then you can keep Uribe at SS if no upgrade is found there.

wdelaney72
11-02-2007, 02:42 PM
if we managed to get Furcal and Hunter this offseason losing only one starter in the Furcal swap, I think we have improved a large amount for next year already. Just work on the bullpen and we're set.

I completely agree with this.

SBSoxFan
11-02-2007, 02:42 PM
Torii would be the better fit but who says we can't have hunter in center and rowand in left

If you do that: 1) You've possibly used up all your FA money, 2) You would have to move one of either Crede or Fields, and 3) You still don't have a leadoff hitter.

chisoxfan83
11-02-2007, 02:44 PM
If you do that: 1) You've possibly used up all your FA money, 2) You would have to move one of either Crede or Fields, and 3) You still don't have a leadoff hitter.

sorry for fantasizing then i guess i will take Torii for now

A.T. Money
11-02-2007, 03:17 PM
I got an idea!

Let's go get "Erin RowLand!"

He's the best player of all time!

gregory18n
11-02-2007, 05:43 PM
Enough already, one person believes Rowand should be 1st choice for CF, everyone else prefers Hunter.

Now Rowand is mentioned for LF, while hopefully, everyone else would prefer Carl Crawford, as has been mentioned at MLB Rumors.

Crawford is the only player we should consider giving up Garland for, period!

If we are unable to get Hunter, then Rowand would be a great 2nd choice.

munchman33
11-02-2007, 05:48 PM
Now Rowand is mentioned for LF, while hopefully, everyone else would prefer Carl Crawford, as has been mentioned at MLB Rumors.



Yeah, and I'd prefer a six figure salary to the one I'm getting.

Carl Crawford is, at best, a complete reach. We probably don't even have the young stud talent it would take to acquire him.

And in the unlikely event we signed both Rowand and Hunter, my guess is Rowand's playing RF and Dye makes the switch to LF.

oeo
11-02-2007, 05:55 PM
Enough already, one person believes Rowand should be 1st choice for CF, everyone else prefers Hunter.

Now Rowand is mentioned for LF, while hopefully, everyone else would prefer Carl Crawford, as has been mentioned at MLB Rumors.

Crawford is the only player we should consider giving up Garland for, period!

If we are unable to get Hunter, then Rowand would be a great 2nd choice.

And what's TB going to want with an expensive, free-agent-to-be SP? You want Crawford? Be prepared to give up your best young pitching. And that includes Danks, Egbert, and Gonzalez.

gregory18n
11-02-2007, 05:56 PM
Well, get ready to stretch, MLB Rumors says Garland for Crawford is being discussed.

...
11-02-2007, 06:09 PM
Well, get ready to stretch, MLB Rumors says Garland for Crawford is being discussed.

I'm not seeing anything... :dunno:

KRS1
11-02-2007, 06:14 PM
Well, get ready to stretch, MLB Rumors says Garland for Crawford is being discussed.

As in mlbtraderumors? As in, total garbage?

jabrch
11-02-2007, 06:15 PM
Well, get ready to stretch, MLB Rumors says Garland for Crawford is being discussed.


That's stupid. The Devil Rays would not do that - it doesn't help them. Crawford costs less and is better in terms of overall impact. And Gar would surely leave after one year. No way.

...
11-02-2007, 06:17 PM
As in mlbtraderumors? As in, total garbage?

MLB Trade Rumors is as much garbage as they articles they post. They are not the ones making this stuff up. If you enjoy rumors, they conveniently place them all on one webpage. I'd like to know where he is getting this information...

Trav
11-02-2007, 08:20 PM
That's stupid. The Devil Rays would not do that - it doesn't help them. Crawford costs less and is better in terms of overall impact. And Gar would surely leave after one year. No way.

I'm not saying I think it will happen either, but when you assume that TB wouldn't sign him it makes me wonder. Eventually, Tampa Bay is going to have to sign some pitching right? They don't have a bad lineup and one has to imagine them never making a huge FA signing. Right?

DSpivack
11-02-2007, 08:22 PM
I'm not saying I think it will happen either, but when you assume that TB wouldn't sign him it makes me wonder. Eventually, Tampa Bay is going to have to sign some pitching right? They don't have a bad lineup and one has to imagine them never making a huge FA signing. Right?

They already have Kazmir and Shields. David Price can't be too far behind. Andrew Sonnanstine should be in the rotation next year, he could still be good. I think they could be good in a year or two.

jabrch
11-02-2007, 11:47 PM
I'm not saying I think it will happen either, but when you assume that TB wouldn't sign him it makes me wonder. Eventually, Tampa Bay is going to have to sign some pitching right? They don't have a bad lineup and one has to imagine them never making a huge FA signing. Right?

I can't see them going to the FA market and signing Jon Garland, who if he leaves Chicago would be most likely to go West, not east, to the kind of deal he'd get next offseason.

I'd bet the farm against it happening - and I'd give tremendous odds.

Brian26
11-03-2007, 12:42 AM
MLB Trade Rumors is as much garbage as they articles they post. They are not the ones making this stuff up. If you enjoy rumors, they conveniently place them all on one webpage. I'd like to know where he is getting this information...

The guy lives in an apartment across from the Yorktown mall. He used to post about 75% rumors from Kaplan's show on WGN. Since he's established a following now, people from across the country email him links to newspaper stories and radio interviews with more bogus rumors.

Domeshot17
11-03-2007, 01:30 AM
MLBTRADERUMORS.COM SUCKS.

Yah, Say what you want, he posts other people's rumors he doesn make up his own.

Why don't you write a book, and I will give you qoutes to base it on, doesn't matter how true it is, you are off the hook because I said it!

That site is pure BS. His main source of rumors is Bruce Levine, who if I recall right, has not been right in 5-6 years about a big trade.

I mean seriously, listen to Bruce and MLB TRADE RUMORS, go and back them, because by now we would have already dealt Buehrle, picked up Griffey, dealt Dye etc.

People who qoute mlb trade rumors sound like this friend I have. Everyday on facebook he leaves me a message about some big trade rumor he heard, how we have already landed kobe, how the Cubs are for sure getting Cuban or Arod :rolleyes:. Then when nothing happens you have the egg on your face:redface:.

There are 3 truths about WSI above all. (1) You don't talk Politics (2) You let the mods make the rules and (3) If you are going to post a rumor in the clubhouse you better bring a damn good source, and MLBTRADERUMORS will never be that source, and continually qouting it will just keep cutting down your validity.


Now to comment on the bs rumor itself in a few words

We aren't getting Carl Crawford. Every year people clamor about we should get him how TB will just give him away since they have a lot of OF, and every year he plays for TB. He is a cornerstone of that team. The guy we could get cheaper would be Baldelli, but hes not even money to stay healthy.
Garland would never be the guy TB demands, it would be Broadway Gio Egbert (although I still don't consider him a top pitching prospect yet) Danks etc. Guys they control 4-6 years. Knowing TB, I would not be suprised if they wanted a Jenks-Anderson-Broadway package for Crawford. Garland makes no sense for them. He won't resign there because he wants to win and is a west coast guy.

I don't know why people assume teams will just GIVE us their best players for next to nothing.

FedEx227
11-03-2007, 02:31 AM
The guy lives in an apartment across from the Yorktown mall. He used to post about 75% rumors from Kaplan's show on WGN. Since he's established a following now, people from across the country email him links to newspaper stories and radio interviews with more bogus rumors.

At least those are real nice apartments :tongue:

wassagstdu
11-03-2007, 07:50 AM
We sure dont need any more slap hitters that run fast, thats why we were so bad this year.
What planet did that happen on?

Last year we didnt hit our 200 and look what happened.
We didn't hit our 200 because the same slow home-run-or-nothing lineup didn't produce.

russ99
11-05-2007, 05:52 PM
MLBTRADERUMORS.COM SUCKS.

Yah, Say what you want, he posts other people's rumors he doesn make up his own.

Why don't you write a book, and I will give you qoutes to base it on, doesn't matter how true it is, you are off the hook because I said it!

That site is pure BS. His main source of rumors is Bruce Levine, who if I recall right, has not been right in 5-6 years about a big trade.

I mean seriously, listen to Bruce and MLB TRADE RUMORS, go and back them, because by now we would have already dealt Buehrle, picked up Griffey, dealt Dye etc.

People who qoute mlb trade rumors sound like this friend I have. Everyday on facebook he leaves me a message about some big trade rumor he heard, how we have already landed kobe, how the Cubs are for sure getting Cuban or Arod :rolleyes:. Then when nothing happens you have the egg on your face:redface:.

There are 3 truths about WSI above all. (1) You don't talk Politics (2) You let the mods make the rules and (3) If you are going to post a rumor in the clubhouse you better bring a damn good source, and MLBTRADERUMORS will never be that source, and continually qouting it will just keep cutting down your validity.


Now to comment on the bs rumor itself in a few words

We aren't getting Carl Crawford. Every year people clamor about we should get him how TB will just give him away since they have a lot of OF, and every year he plays for TB. He is a cornerstone of that team. The guy we could get cheaper would be Baldelli, but hes not even money to stay healthy.
Garland would never be the guy TB demands, it would be Broadway Gio Egbert (although I still don't consider him a top pitching prospect yet) Danks etc. Guys they control 4-6 years. Knowing TB, I would not be suprised if they wanted a Jenks-Anderson-Broadway package for Crawford. Garland makes no sense for them. He won't resign there because he wants to win and is a west coast guy.

I don't know why people assume teams will just GIVE us their best players for next to nothing.

Actually I read mlbtraderumors every day just for the hilarious posts by biased fans and their even more crazy speculated rumors. It's quite entertaining if you take it with a grain of salt.

At least Rosenthal's rumors (accurate or not) get posted fairly quickly there.

oeo
11-05-2007, 06:00 PM
MLBTRADERUMORS.COM SUCKS.

Yah, Say what you want, he posts other people's rumors he doesn make up his own.

Why don't you write a book, and I will give you qoutes to base it on, doesn't matter how true it is, you are off the hook because I said it!

That site is pure BS. His main source of rumors is Bruce Levine, who if I recall right, has not been right in 5-6 years about a big trade.

I mean seriously, listen to Bruce and MLB TRADE RUMORS, go and back them, because by now we would have already dealt Buehrle, picked up Griffey, dealt Dye etc.

People who qoute mlb trade rumors sound like this friend I have. Everyday on facebook he leaves me a message about some big trade rumor he heard, how we have already landed kobe, how the Cubs are for sure getting Cuban or Arod :rolleyes:. Then when nothing happens you have the egg on your face:redface:.

What the hell are you talking about? :?:

Most of what he posts on there are rumors from newspapers and media outlets around the country. It's just all there in one spot. He puts his own spin on things which most of the time sucks, but if you want some links to rumors, then it's a good place to go.

You're freaking out over nothing. Actually look through the pages, and it's actually not that bad of a site (excluding his opinions, of course). If you're one of those people that for whatever reason hates rumors, then it's not a good place for you, but I like to see different trade possibilities for the Sox, and there are actually people out there that have that information.