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Fenway
10-31-2007, 09:13 AM
Peter from Brookline on ESPN 890 this morning says the Twins have dangled Johan Santana to the Red Sox and are asking for Clay Buchholz and Jon Lester in return.

Obviously the key is could Boston then lock up Santana to a multiyear deal..if so then it appears to be a good deal for both teams.

palehozenychicty
10-31-2007, 09:14 AM
I think that has to be the starting point for negotiations. To not get an established major league position player would be an AWFUL trade for the Twinkies. I support it! :D:

soxfanatlanta
10-31-2007, 09:15 AM
Good God.

Fenway
10-31-2007, 09:16 AM
I think that has to be the starting point for negotiations. To not get an established major league position player would be an AWFUL trade for the Twinkies. I support it! :D:

Since Hunter is gone Theo would give them Coco

PorkChopExpress
10-31-2007, 09:49 AM
If the Twins are the ones proposing the trade, you know they have scouted the pitchers and know exactly what they are getting - two pitchers who will dominate the White Sox for years. Throw in Coco Crisp, another player who seems to excell when facing us, and this keeps the Twins young and good for a few more years and is bad news for the Sox. But I'm just being optomistic.

Fenway
10-31-2007, 09:55 AM
Buchholz looks like the real deal....he has one of the nastiest curves I have ever seen.

Lester looks like he is over the hump. Obviously pressure doesn't bother him after what he has been through. He impressed many Sunday night in Game 4.

Beckett followed by Santana would be impressive. I think the question Boston has to ponder is in either Buchholz or Lester do they have their own Santana in the making. With Buchholtz they just might.

TwinKess
10-31-2007, 10:00 AM
I'm just going to bury my head in the sand and come up when spring training starts. This is the part of the year where it sucks to be a Twins fan.

DSpivack
10-31-2007, 10:00 AM
Since Hunter is gone Theo would give them Coco

I would think the Twins would want Pedroia or Ellsbury or another cheap youngsters, not a mediocre veteran.

oeo
10-31-2007, 10:02 AM
Buchholz looks like the real deal....he has one of the nastiest curves I have ever seen.

Lester looks like he is over the hump. Obviously pressure doesn't bother him after what he has been through. He impressed many Sunday night in Game 4.

And neither are even close to as good as Santana right now. Santana should get a killing for the Twins. If this is all they seriously want, they need to get Terry Ryan back in there ASAP.

Beckett followed by Santana would be impressive. I think the question Boston has to ponder is in either Buchholz or Lester do they have their own Santana in the making. With Buchholtz they just might.Beckett followed by Santana? Beckett is not a better pitcher than Johan Santana. Santana just had an off year, which was just as good, if not better, than Beckett's.

Fenway
10-31-2007, 10:05 AM
I would think the Twins would want Pedroia or Ellsbury or another cheap youngsters, not a mediocre veteran.

I would like a Lamborghini myself....

Pedroia and Ellsbury are UNTOUCHABLE

oeo
10-31-2007, 10:07 AM
I would like a Lamborghini myself....

Pedroia and Ellsbury are UNTOUCHABLE

:rolleyes:

You're trying to acquire the best pitcher in the game. You have to give up some talent.

Dibbs
10-31-2007, 10:08 AM
Beckett followed by Santana lol!

Give me a break.

Fenway
10-31-2007, 10:09 AM
:rolleyes:

You're trying to acquire the best pitcher in the game. You have to give up some talent.

second best pitcher in the game.....we already have the best :smile:

oeo
10-31-2007, 10:11 AM
second best pitcher in the game.....we already have the best :smile:

You're unbelievable, Fenway. Beckett isn't even in Santana's league. You act like he just had one of the best years in the history of the game; it wasn't anything special.

drewcifer
10-31-2007, 10:14 AM
Beckett followed by Santana would be impressive. I think the question Boston has to ponder is in either Buchholz or Lester do they have their own Santana in the making. With Buchholtz they just might.

If I'm at all interested in Santana and his presence in the AL East, I'd say NY better be questioning more whether they have a Santana in either Hughes, Kennedy, or Chamberlain. They MUST counter Beckett with something now because everyone knows now that it ain't Wang.

If Boston somehow does manage a deal to get Santana, and then even after that is able lock him up in a longer signing, the Yankees could potentially be in trouble for a VERY long time.

wdelaney72
10-31-2007, 10:14 AM
Sorry, Fenway, but your kool-aid is a little strong. I take nothing away from Beckett's performance this year and in 2003, but as a starting pitcher, Santana is the best in the game. Period. You more than welcome to pencil Beckett in at #2.

balke
10-31-2007, 10:16 AM
Anything to get Santana out of my division, and I'm happy. Buchholz may be great, but he ain't no Santana.

oeo
10-31-2007, 10:17 AM
Sorry, Fenway, but your kool-aid is a little strong. I take nothing away from Beckett's performance this year and in 2003, but as a starting pitcher, Santana is the best in the game. Period. You more than welcome to pencil Beckett in at #2.

I wouldn't even call him #2. He's probably in the lower half of the Top 10, maybe as low as the Top 15.

Beckett has been a hell of a postseason pitcher, but he's not in the top-tier of pitchers.

IlliniSox4Life
10-31-2007, 10:17 AM
second best pitcher in the game.....we already have the best :smile:

The teal police don't seem like enough. Is there a teal FBI or teal SWAT team? What about teal Navy Seals?

balke
10-31-2007, 10:19 AM
Wow, I like Beckett... but let's not get stupid here Fens. Beckett comes close, but gets no cigar.

Fenway
10-31-2007, 10:19 AM
You're unbelievable, Fenway. Beckett isn't even in Santana's league. You act like he just had one of the best years in the history of the game; it wasn't anything special.

Only 20 game winner in MLB

4-0 on the post-season

He has a ring

Isn't that special :D:

BTW check out Wheaties next time you in the supermarket

oeo
10-31-2007, 10:20 AM
Only 20 game winner in MLB

4-0 on the post-season

He has a ring

Isn't that special :D:

BTW check out Wheaties next time you in the supermarket

Wow, the best pitcher on the best team in the AL won 20 games...:rolleyes:

Like I said before, he's a great postseason pitcher. But he's not even close to Santana.

balke
10-31-2007, 10:22 AM
Only 20 game winner in MLB

4-0 on the post-season

He has a ring

Isn't that special :D:

BTW check out Wheaties next time you in the supermarket

20 wins with the best offense in the majors? Who'da thunkit. How about strikeout champion of the world and consistant Cy Young award winner who doesn't get injured every other season?

Fenway
10-31-2007, 10:22 AM
Wow, the best pitcher on the best team in the AL won 20 games...:rolleyes:

Like I said before, he's a great postseason pitcher. But he's not even close to Santana.

Let us see who wins the Cy Young ( which was voted on before the playoffs )

balke
10-31-2007, 10:26 AM
I'd take Peavy and Santana over Beckett. Call me when he posts an ERA below 3 in his career. If Santana goes to Boston he'll get 24 wins next season.

soltrain21
10-31-2007, 10:30 AM
The teal police don't seem like enough. Is there a teal FBI or teal SWAT team? What about teal Navy Seals?


The Navy Teals.

CHISOXFAN13
10-31-2007, 10:33 AM
Let us see who wins the Cy Young ( which was voted on before the playoffs )

Last time I checked, Johan has a few more than Beckett.

Santana would win 25 games with that offense.

Take the blinders off.

LOL. I cant believe you said Pedroia and Ellsbury are untouchable in a deal for the game's top pitcher the last five seasons.

Pure silliness again.

Fenway
10-31-2007, 10:38 AM
LOL. I cant believe you said Pedroia and Ellsbury are untouchable in a deal for the game's top pitcher the last five seasons.

Pure silliness again.


Forgive me I am lightheaded from drinking champagne :gulp:

Rocky Soprano
10-31-2007, 10:39 AM
Only 20 game winner in MLB

4-0 on the post-season

He has a ring

Isn't that special :D:

BTW check out Wheaties next time you in the supermarket

That makes him special but doesnt make him the best.
If you truly believe he is THE BEST then you need to cut down on that Kool Aid.

thegooch
10-31-2007, 10:40 AM
Wait. I think Santana just developed another blister on his pitching hand.

FedEx227
10-31-2007, 10:43 AM
20 wins with the best offense in the majors? Who'da thunkit. How about strikeout champion of the world and consistant Cy Young award winner who doesn't get injured every other season?

Santana can cut a friggin' changeup for gods sake.

Fenway, stop being stupid. They don't even compare.

-Santana has a career ERA 3.22 / Beckett 3.74
-Santana Career WHIP 1.09 / Beckett 1.22

If you like to use wins so much. Beckett has eclipsed 15 wins 3 times two times on an offense as powerful as Boston.

Santana has done it 4 times on less than dominant offenses.

Get your head out of the sand, Fenway. We get it, the world revolves around Boston and it's players. But Santana is in another league well above Josh Beckett.

PorkChopExpress
10-31-2007, 10:43 AM
If I'm at all interested in Santana and his presence in the AL East, I'd say NY better be questioning more whether they have a Santana in either Hughes, Kennedy, or Chamberlain. They MUST counter Beckett with something now because everyone knows now that it ain't Wang.

If Boston somehow does manage a deal to get Santana, and then even after that is able lock him up in a longer signing, the Yankees could potentially be in trouble for a VERY long time.

You raise a good point. While, if the Twins truly want these two pitchers you can rest assured they will do well, this could also just be the Twins making noise in order to get the Yankees involved and overbidding as usual when Boston is involved. It seems like it could almost be too easy to play those two teams off of each other.

CHISOXFAN13
10-31-2007, 10:48 AM
Forgive me I am lightheaded from drinking champagne :gulp:

Oh right. I thought it was just the contsant Boston is better than everyone else syndrome working. You're the same one who was playing the Red Sox are doomed scenario in June. *****.

Gloating on a WHITE Sox site. I love it.

Craig Grebeck
10-31-2007, 10:51 AM
To be fair, Beckett had a better year than Santana when considering park factors. Beckett had an ERA+ of 145 to Santana's 130, both of which very good but Beckett had the better year. Plus one must be concerned with Santana's HR allowed trend.

DSpivack
10-31-2007, 10:55 AM
To be fair, Beckett had a better year than Santana when considering park factors. Beckett had an ERA+ of 145 to Santana's 130, both of which very good but Beckett had the better year. Plus one must be concerned with Santana's HR allowed trend.

So Beckett had a better year. Still, Santana has had a better career.

mjmcend
10-31-2007, 10:58 AM
So Beckett had a better year. Still, Santana has had a better career.

And Bedard was having a better year than both until he got hurt. Still wouldn't take him over Santana either.

itsnotrequired
10-31-2007, 11:02 AM
Oh right. I thought it was just the contsant Boston is better than everyone else syndrome working. You're the same one who was playing the Red Sox are doomed scenario in June. *****.

Gloating on a WHITE Sox site. I love it.

I think Fenway's tongue is firmly in-cheek in this thread.

HomeFish
10-31-2007, 11:09 AM
Beckett's got two rings -- he's certainly more capable of leading his team to postseason glory than Santana.

However, Santana is certainly much better than Beckett at staying healthy. How long before blisters knock Beckett out of another season?

Fenway
10-31-2007, 11:59 AM
Oh right. I thought it was just the contsant Boston is better than everyone else syndrome working. You're the same one who was playing the Red Sox are doomed scenario in June. *****.

Gloating on a WHITE Sox site. I love it.

Hell I thought the Red Sox were doomed 2 weeks ago :tongue:

Fenway
10-31-2007, 12:00 PM
Beckett's got two rings -- he's certainly more capable of leading his team to postseason glory than Santana.

However, Santana is certainly much better than Beckett at staying healthy. How long before blisters knock Beckett out of another season?

John Farrell the Red Sox pitching coach came up with a fix for the blister problem and it was not a problem in 07.

thomas35forever
10-31-2007, 12:25 PM
Santana on the Red Sox? Might as well name them champs for '08.

Foulke You
10-31-2007, 01:06 PM
Santana on the Red Sox? Might as well name them champs for '08.
I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, I feel like throwing a parade at the prospect of Santana leaving our division. It is usually 5 automatic losses per year whenever he takes the hill for the Twins against us. We'd go from facing him 5 times per year to facing him maybe once or if we got lucky, not at all.

However, the goal for the White Sox is to win the World Series next year, not just win the division. What team in the AL will be able to knock off a Red Sox squad in a 7 game series that can throw Santana and Beckett at you?:o: That is a scary good rotation even if Santana turns into a rent-a-pitcher for Boston. They could end up renting themselves another World Series trophy.:(:

captainclutch24
10-31-2007, 01:29 PM
I would take Santana and Peavy over Beckett

Santanas career numbers
WHIP 1.09, 9.50 K/9, .221 AVG, 3.22 career ERA, 93 wins in 175 starts

Peavys
WHIP 1.19, 9.02 k/9, .232 AVG, 3.31 career ERA, 76 wins in 172 starts

Becketts
WHIP 1.23, 8.51 k/9, .238 AVG, 3.74 career ERA, 77 wins in 166 starts

Fenway also this year Santana had an era of 3.33 in 33 starts while Beckett had an era of 3.27 in 30 starts. There wasn't a whole lot of difference between the two. Santana struck out 235 to Becketts 194. In 200.2 innings Beckett gave up 189 hits, and 45 combined BB/HBP. In 219 innings 183 but 56 BB/HBP. In 19 more innings Santana allowed only 5 more people to reach base safely. Beckett was fortunate enough to keep his HR total to 17 while Santanas was 33. With a down year for Santana he still won 15 games.

Santana is clearly much better. Peavy and Beckett have to close of numbers at this point but regular season time I would take Peavy.

soxfanatlanta
10-31-2007, 01:51 PM
BTW check out Wheaties next time you in the supermarket

Sure, it's right next to the kool-aid.
:tongue:

Fenway
10-31-2007, 01:58 PM
Beckett's got two rings -- he's certainly more capable of leading his team to postseason glory than Santana.

However, Santana is certainly much better than Beckett at staying healthy. How long before blisters knock Beckett out of another season?

Sure, it's right next to the kool-aid.
:tongue:

http://digitalderek.typepad.com/sawxblog/photos/2007/playoffs/world_series/wheaties_red_sox.jpg

mjmcend
10-31-2007, 02:00 PM
Beckett's got two rings -- he's certainly more capable of leading his team to postseason glory than Santana.

However, Santana is certainly much better than Beckett at staying healthy. How long before blisters knock Beckett out of another season?

The Twins offense has never come close to Boston's or the Marlins in '03.

weareud
10-31-2007, 02:00 PM
:threadsucks:

thedudeabides
10-31-2007, 02:19 PM
http://digitalderek.typepad.com/sawxblog/photos/2007/playoffs/world_series/wheaties_red_sox.jpg

Buehrle was on a Wheaties box, as well. According to the transitive property, he is then better than Santana. :cool:

oeo
10-31-2007, 02:23 PM
Santana on the Red Sox? Might as well name them champs for '08.

We all should know by now how quickly things can turn for the worst. Boston won't be the same team in many respects next year. They're getting older at a lot of positions, and at the same time they're going to bring in some youth (Ellsbury, Buccholz), that will be replacing veterans. There's no guarantee that everything works out again next year.

Lance Alworth
10-31-2007, 02:56 PM
Peter from Brookline on ESPN 890 this morning says the Twins have dangled Johan Santana to the Red Sox and are asking for Clay Buchholz and Jon Lester in return.

Obviously the key is could Boston then lock up Santana to a multiyear deal..if so then it appears to be a good deal for both teams.

Uh, who is "Peter from Brookline"?

WizardsofOzzie
10-31-2007, 03:20 PM
Santana on the Red Sox? Might as well name them champs for '08.
Meh, we said that when we acquired Thome before the 06 season. You just never know what is going to happen

Fenway
10-31-2007, 03:41 PM
Meh, we said that when we acquired Thome before the 06 season. You just never know what is going to happen

Exactly

Boston didn't have any major injuries this year save Schilling 2 months and Manny one month. Beckett only missed one start.

Anything can happen in 162 games

PKalltheway
10-31-2007, 03:57 PM
Meh, we said that when we acquired Thome before the 06 season. You just never know what is going to happen

Don't forget that a lot of people had the Yankees booked as the 2004 World Champions when they got A-Rod.

Anything can happen in baseball.

TheCommander
10-31-2007, 04:06 PM
Exactly

Boston didn't have any major injuries this year save Schilling 2 months and Manny one month. Beckett only missed one start.

Anything can happen in 162 games

Manny having his head up his ass isn't an injury;it's the norm. :wink:

DSpivack
10-31-2007, 04:14 PM
Uh, who is "Peter from Brookline"?

You might have heard of him, his last name is Gammons.

Lance Alworth
10-31-2007, 05:34 PM
You might have heard of him, his last name is Gammons.

Didn't know he was from Brookline. Wiki says he's from Groton, Mass., not Brookline.

Fenway
10-31-2007, 06:10 PM
Didn't know he was from Brookline. Wiki says he's from Groton, Mass., not Brookline.

Born in Groton but now lives a 10 minute walk from Fenway

Lance Alworth
10-31-2007, 06:14 PM
Born in Groton but now lives a 10 minute walk from Fenway

Not too surprising, because the Red Sox are the only thing he ever talks about (if he's not talking about the Yankees). I think ESPN should redesignate his title from "Senior Baseball Analyst" to "Red Sox Baseball Analyst."

ilsox7
10-31-2007, 06:16 PM
Not too surprising, because the Red Sox are the only thing he ever talks about (if he's not talking about the Yankees). I think ESPN should redesignate his title from "Senior Baseball Analyst" to "Red Sox Baseball Analyst."

Peter is one of the few baseball people in the media that provides good information on all of MLB.

Lance Alworth
10-31-2007, 06:29 PM
Peter is one of the few baseball people in the media that provides good information on all of MLB.

Granted. But sometimes he's just TOO much with his Red Sox gushing. On Monday, the morning following the Red Sox sweep, he was on ESPN Radio waxing about 'lil Dustin Pedroia, and how great he was for giving up his baseball scholarship at Arizona State so they could sign additional players. Enough already!

Dan Mega
10-31-2007, 06:48 PM
Beckett > Santana? Now I've seen everything.

Santana is going to go down as one of the best pitchers of all time. When all is said and done he may be the best pitcher the game has seen in the last several decades. Beckett doing well in the playoffs and being on a Wheaties box is nothing compared to what Johan is done.

DSpivack
10-31-2007, 08:05 PM
Beckett > Santana? Now I've seen everything.

Santana is going to go down as one of the best pitchers of all time. When all is said and done he may be the best pitcher the game has seen in the last several decades. Beckett doing well in the playoffs and being on a Wheaties box is nothing compared to what Johan is done.


http://www.bitterfans.com/UserFiles/Image/GregMaddux.jpg

"Hello."

http://www.chroniclejournal.com/includes/CP_stories/62/62550.jpg

"Hey, how you doing?"

Cambridge
10-31-2007, 08:31 PM
Santana will be traded this offseason, but it will be to a team west of Boston.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-31-2007, 08:42 PM
Gammons has a "scoop" that involves the Red Sox? Gosh that hardly ever happens.

The secret to getting the Eastern Sports Programming Network deloused is to first get Peter Gammons fired. Of course the jerks who run that network probably take the same view as Scum-Times management when fielding complaints about the Windsock, "Any publicity is good publicity."

The man is a joke. Ignore him.

itsnotrequired
10-31-2007, 09:10 PM
Gammons has a "scoop" that involves the Red Sox? Gosh that hardly ever happens.

The secret to getting the Eastern Sports Programming Network deloused is to first get Peter Gammons fired. Of course the jerks who run that network probably take the same view as Scum-Times management when fielding complaints about the Windsock, "Any publicity is good publicity."

The man is a joke. Ignore him.

Gammons? New ballparks? Comcast? George is fired up tonight!

:D:

PaleHoseGeorge
10-31-2007, 09:11 PM
Gammons? New ballparks? Comcast? George is fired up tonight!


It's the Halloween candy.

:redface:

ilsox7
10-31-2007, 09:13 PM
Granted. But sometimes he's just TOO much with his Red Sox gushing. On Monday, the morning following the Red Sox sweep, he was on ESPN Radio waxing about 'lil Dustin Pedroia, and how great he was for giving up his baseball scholarship at Arizona State so they could sign additional players. Enough already!

I rarely watch him on espn b/c I rarely have that channel tuned in. I read his stuff on espn.com and find it to be pretty good.

FarWestChicago
10-31-2007, 09:15 PM
Santana can cut a friggin' changeup for gods sake.

Fenway, stop being stupid. They don't even compare.

-Santana has a career ERA 3.22 / Beckett 3.74
-Santana Career WHIP 1.09 / Beckett 1.22

If you like to use wins so much. Beckett has eclipsed 15 wins 3 times two times on an offense as powerful as Boston.

Santana has done it 4 times on less than dominant offenses.

Get your head out of the sand, Fenway. We get it, the world revolves around Boston and it's players. But Santana is in another league well above Josh Beckett.This is when people like statheads.

To be fair, Beckett had a better year than Santana when considering park factors. Beckett had an ERA+ of 145 to Santana's 130, both of which very good but Beckett had the better year. Plus one must be concerned with Santana's HR allowed trend.This is when people hate statheads.

PennStater98r
11-01-2007, 10:15 AM
So, the more interesting thing in this thread is Fenway's allegation that Beckett is better than Santana.

Here's the thing. Beckett has better numbers this seasons. Period. Santana is probably the best pitcher in the last ten years. By the time it's said and done, if he continues to put up Johan number for the next 5-8 years, they'll talk of him in the same place as Pedro, Maddux and Carlton - as the best pitcher over a span of a generation. Beckett - he'll go down as a Jack Morris at best. He's the guy that put up pretty good numbers peppered throughout his career - stepped up in the post season - but will probably fall short of HoF status.

Santana is well on his way to the Hall. It just will take him being healthy and putting up good numbers for another 5-7 years.

Jjav829
11-01-2007, 10:23 AM
This isn't true. It cant be. If it was true, Johan would be a Red Sox right now. There's no way Theo would have turned down acquiring the best pitcher in the game - who also happens to be a lefty - in hopes of one of two young pitchers becoming anywhere as good as Johan.

Fenway
11-01-2007, 10:35 AM
This isn't true. It cant be. If it was true, Johan would be a Red Sox right now. There's no way Theo would have turned down acquiring the best pitcher in the game - who also happens to be a lefty - in hopes of one of two young pitchers becoming anywhere as good as Johan.

Red Sox are having their first 2008 meeting this morning. Everybody has been drunk for 3 days.

A. Cavatica
11-01-2007, 10:56 AM
Everybody has been drunk for 3 days.

First binge since just before the J.D. Drew signing! :redneck

Fenway
11-01-2007, 10:59 AM
First binge since just before the J.D. Drew signing! :redneck

I have to hand it to J.D. He picked a heck of a time to have a game breaking home run. :tongue:

Mickster
11-01-2007, 11:55 AM
John Farrell the Red Sox pitching coach came up with a fix for the blister problem and it was not a problem in 07.

John Farrell or Moises Alou?

:peehttp://www.scienceshareware.com/images/toys-btb/blister.jpg