Torre tells Yankees DROP DEAD

[dakuda]

Turned down a year $5 mil offer.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7349692

[Fenway]

The Yankees just announced that Joe Torre will not return as manager. He turned down a $5 million deal that included $3 million in incentives.

http://yankees.lohudblogs.com/

[Nellie_Fox]

Good for him. I'm glad he didn't crawl (if $5M can be considered crawling.)

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

Good for him. I'm glad he didn't crawl (if $5M can be considered crawling.)
Exactly. I would do the same thing. There's no reason for him to play for a team that's threatened to fire him over the past two seasons.

[Fenway]

from NY POST

October 18, 2007 -- TAMPA - Joe Torre today turned down an $8 million offer to stay with the Yankees.

The surprise decision came after Torre flew to Tampa to meet with the Steinbrenner family. Torre was offered $5 million base package and another $1 million for each the division series, league series and the World Series.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/10182007/sports/yankees/torre_lands_in_tampa.htm

NYYFANS.COM explodes

Joe Turns deal down (http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=107171) (http://forums.nyyfans.com/images/misc/multipage.gif 1 (http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=107171) 2 (http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=107171&page=2) 3 (http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=107171&page=3) 4 (http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=107171&page=4) ... Last Page (http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=107171&page=5))
JavyVazquezIsSick




From boston.com and Nick Cafardo:

Torre out as Yankee manager (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2007/10/torre_out_as_ya.html)


Joe Torre has turned down a one-year deal with a vested option to return to manage the Yankees, president Randy Levine just said in a conference call.

Levine said the Yankee brass offered Torre a $5 million base salary with $1 million in a signing bonus, $1 million for making the ALCS and $1 million if he made the World Series. Levine said the option would vest if Torre made it to the World Series for $8 million in 2009.

Levine said Torre turned the deal down and now the Yankees are going "to move quickly" to hire a new manager, but did not reveal who.

[Boondock Saint]

I love it. Torre is too good a manager to have to put up with the crap he's had to deal with lately. I'm happy he sent Steinbrenner a one-finger salute after threatening to fire him so many times.

[Noneck]

Don't see him getting a better opportunity for glory than with the yanks. How can money be so important to a guy his age and that has already made a ton?

[Fenway]

Yankees make him an offer he can't accept (20 percent pay cut) and he walks.
Yanks get what they want, getting rid of Torre, without the blowback of 'firing' their saintly manager.

From a PR standpoint, it's game, set, match Team Steinbrenner.

Suddenly Terry Francona squirms a little. He has been blasted for staying with Drew, Lugo and Crisp. He does not have a contract for next year.

[chaerulez]

That deal was not really an offer at all. It was an insulting offer to give a 1 year 5 million contract when he was just coming off a 3 year 19 million deal. The Yankees brass knew Torre wouldn't accept that kind of offer so it's a way to say they tried to bring him back, even though it's not the case.

[Boondock Saint]

Don't see him getting a better opportunity for glory than with the yanks. How can money be so important to a guy his age and that has already made a ton?

I don't think it's money. I think it's respect. How many times has Steinbrenner gone to the press with "This is Torre's last chance...if we don't win the WS/beat the Red Sox/if we get swept..."? If I was Torre, I'd be all too happy to tell him that he can go to hell.

[chaerulez]

Don't see him getting a better opportunity for glory than with the yanks. How can money be so important to a guy his age and that has already made a ton?

It's really not about the money. By offering him a 1 year 5 million contract it was the Yankees way of telling him we don't want to back. It would have been embrassing for Torre to accept that offer, he would be admitting he is Steinbrenner's lapdog. This was a PR move by the Yankees, nothing more.

[Noneck]

Suddenly Terry Francona squirms a little. He has been blasted for staying with Drew, Lugo and Crisp. He does not have a contract for next year.
Maybe Manny can be Player Manager Manny, Oh so fitting for those fans.

[itsnotrequired]

It's really not about the money. By offering him a 1 year 5 million contract it was the Yankees way of telling him we don't want to back. It would have been embrassing for Torre to accept that offer, he would be admitting he is Steinbrenner's lapdog. This was a PR move by the Yankees, nothing more.

Yep.

[Lip Man 1]

Good for Joe after what's he's accomplished he doesn't need to put up with that one year crap.

Lip

[VenturaFan23]

Exactly. I would do the same thing. There's no reason for him to play for a team that's threatened to fire him over the past two seasons.

:o: :tongue:

[spawn]

Yankees make him an offer he can't accept (20 percent pay cut) and he walks.
Yanks get what they want, getting rid of Torre, without the blowback of 'firing' their saintly manager.

From a PR standpoint, it's game, set, match Team Steinbrenner.

My thoughts exactly. Basically, Torre got fired without actually getting fired.

[Hendu]

Of course, the media so far are playing right into Steinbrenner's hand.

I wonder where Torre will end up. He'll probably take some time off or work in the broadcast booth/studio. Also, what managers are out there who can step into that Yankees headache?

[Mr.1Dog]

Good for him...:cool:

[CHIsoxNation]

Of course, the media so far are playing right into Steinbrenner's hand.

I wonder where Torre will end up. He'll probably take some time off or work in the broadcast booth/studio. Also, what managers are out there who can step into that Yankees headache?

They were saying that Mattingly might be the leading candidate and Girardi is still hanging around. TLR might be an option as well.

[RedHeadPaleHoser]

Joe Torre..... YES.

Good for him....he deserves so much better than their goddamn threats.

As much as I hate the Yankee$, I respect Torre for the job he's done in that circus.

[dickallen15]

I was hoping Joe would tell them to stick it. He's a classy guy and has done a great job for so long, and they way they have treated him almost every October the last 3 or 4 years is inexcusable. The Yankees save face, because the money he would get paid is still good, even a raise if they win it all, but I think Joe just is sick of his job being in limbo every offseason when despite the payroll, the Yankees don't have the horses to win.

[Bucky F. Dent]

Torre turns down a one year five million dollar contract, which contract represented a substantial pay CUT.

Now THAT"S living!

[Dan the Man]

NYYFANS.COM explodes

Joe Turns deal down (http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=107171) (http://forums.nyyfans.com/images/misc/multipage.gif 1 (http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=107171) 2 (http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=107171&page=2) 3 (http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=107171&page=3) 4 (http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=107171&page=4) ... Last Page (http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=107171&page=5))
JavyVazquezIsSick

Sounds like there is some serious differing in opinion. Some say YESS!! while others think this means goodbye to Rivera, Petitte, and A-Rod.

[thomas35forever]

The media was absolutely unfair to Torre. They should feel proud of themselves for forcing him out of NY. He didn't deserve the crap he was fed this season. He was managing a team full of players that have so much money they'll still be millionaires ten years after their dead.

[Boondock Saint]

Sounds like there is some serious differing in opinion. Some say YESS!! while others think this means goodbye to Rivera, Petitte, and A-Rod.

That about says it. It's great for Torre, but bad for the Yankees. I think A-Rod was gone anyway, but now their pitching staff is going to have some major holes to fill in the offseason.

[SoxGirl4Life]

I think the real insulting part of their contract offer (if i understand it correctly) is that his option for a second year would only kick in if they made the world series. So he wouldn't even know if he was a lame duck manager until the end of the season. I think that's pretty disrespectful.

Good for him for saying no.

[ode to veeck]

The Steinbrenners are idiots. Why not just fire the guy rather than insult the guy that won them several WS and never failed to reach the playoffs. One year contract and $2M paycut are insults. Good for Joe for telling them where to put it. I find it hard to believe that the owners were even serious with this crap. Insulting a guy they players have a lot of faith in won't help them keep folks around. Too bad for the Yankees

[getonbckthr]

Clemens will not be back
Pettite will not be back.
Rivera will not be back.
Arod will not be back.
Posada may not be back.
Thats alot of holes to fill with a weak FA class.

[CLR01]

Clemens will not be back
Pettite will not be back.
Rivera will not be back.
Arod will not be back.
Posada may not be back.
Thats alot of holes to fill with a weak FA class.

Perhaps Rowand will save them.

[Brian26]

Turned down a year $5 mil offer.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7349692

Good for him :thumbsup:

[Lip Man 1]

I can see Joe going to St. Louis. LaRussa probably won't be back since they canned his G.M. That doesn't mean though Tony winds up in New York.

Lip

[Brian26]

That about says it. It's great for Torre, but bad for the Yankees. I think A-Rod was gone anyway, but now their pitching staff is going to have some major holes to fill in the offseason.

I'm not too worried about their pitching. They've got some good young arms ready to step in with Hughes, Kennedy, Igawa, Chamberlein and the rest.

I think Posada and ARod are going to be hard to replace though.

[chisoxfanatic]

Good for him! It's not like he needs the money anyways. He's set for life.

[Brian26]

I can see Joe going to St. Louis. LaRussa probably won't be back since they canned his G.M. That doesn't mean though Tony winds up in New York.

Lip

Joe Girardi seems like a logical fit if he's tired of broadcasting.

[getonbckthr]

Perhaps Rowand will save them.
I would almost beg Kenny Williams to trade for Damon and his horrible contract if it would mean the Yanks would throw alot of money at Rowand keeping him away from Chicago.

[Brian26]

I would almost beg Kenny Williams to trade for Damon and his horrible contract if it would mean the Yanks would throw alot of money at Rowand keeping him away from Chicago.

I don't get this at all. I'm not Rowand's biggest supporter, but I'd take him over Damon in a second.

[soxfanreggie]

I didn't really care if he came back or not. Yes, he did some great things with him, but I think a lot of managers could have had similar success with that many years with the highest payroll in the MLB, most years almost doubling the next highest team. There is a lot to do managing that many egos, but when the team adds players with $10 million+ contracts like a horse eats hay, it can be easy to win (however some of the contracts they added were just stupid).

As for the pay cut, it's not like he's a player and being asked to take a cut down to the MLB minimum. He'd still be the highest paid coach by over $1 million according to the article I read. Plus, his contract was already bloated (like most of the ones for his players).

[WhiteSox5187]

Good for him...Rivera is gone now, and probably a lot of other people. It's early still, but i wouldn't be shocked if the Yankees managed to be at .500 next year.

[Lip Man 1]

Well for the past few years folks have been saying that same thing. "The pitching is decrepit, the hitters are old" and so forth...yet every damn year I look up and they've won 94 games and are in the playoffs.

Lip

[palehozenychicty]

Well for the past few years folks have been saying that same thing. "The pitching is decrepit, the hitters are old" and so forth...yet every damn year I look up and they've won 94 games and are in the playoffs.

Lip

That's because they play Tampa, Baltimore, and the Jays 57 times/year. The Birds got the best of them this year in the matchups, but usually that trio gets them a lot of wins.

[Viva Medias B's]

Has anyone gotten Suzyn Waldman's reaction to the news?

[WhiteSox5187]

Well for the past few years folks have been saying that same thing. "The pitching is decrepit, the hitters are old" and so forth...yet every damn year I look up and they've won 94 games and are in the playoffs.

Lip
I know, and we're gonna find out next year how much of that credit should go to Torre for keeping his team focused and alive. With a lesser manager the Yankees might not be able to survive a repeat of the April and May they had this year.

[Soxfanspcu11]

Also, what managers are out there who can step into that Yankees headache?



http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Video/061017/s_piniella_cubs_061017.300w.jpg
"YOU RANG???"

The Yankees really should have tried to keep Joe around for just one more year. It would have given them a MUCH better chance to re-sign all their FA's.

[RedHeadPaleHoser]

Has anyone gotten Suzyn Waldman's reaction to the news?

She's still dressed in black from them losing in the playoffs. They probably checked her into Belleville and she's on suicide watch.

Just IV solutions and unfiltered Carleton's are being delivered to her room.

[soxfan13]

Good for him! It's not like he needs the money anyways. He's set for life.

Good for him yes but this had absolutely nothing to do with money. I think it was more of an issue of the lack of respect.

[itsnotrequired]

Good for him yes but this had absolutely nothing to do with money. I think it was more of an issue of the lack of respect.

Money is absolutely part of the equation. Without the pay cut, Torre would have probably returned.

[Nellie_Fox]

Money is absolutely part of the equation. Without the pay cut, Torre would have probably returned.Yes and no. I don't think Torre thinks he will get more elsewhere. It's more that he read the message implicit in a pay cut and a one-year contract, and that was that he was not respected or appreciated by Yankee brass and would be under the microscope all of next year, and he said "no, thanks anyway."

[fquaye149]

Money is absolutely part of the equation. Without the pay cut, Torre would have probably returned.

Money was definitely part of the equation, but a symbolic part of the equation.

The Yankees should be ashamed of the way they've treated one of their most successful managers (4 WS RINGS!) EVER at the end of his tenure.

Any organization with an ounce of class would have either kept their mouth shut during the playoffs, or just let him walk at the end of the year.

Instead, the Yankees offer him a paycut, telling the world they think he didn't earn his money last year (even though, to the extent a manager matters to a team, he MORE than earned his money this past year) and gave him playoff based incentives to rub in the accusation they've been making that he can't win in the playoffs.

The Yankees should be ashamed, and I can't wait to see them crash and burn next year (even moreso than before).

I love how they run the best in the game out of town. First they tried to run A-Rod out, now they're running the most successful manager out. Congrats, Yanks. Enjoy Girardi or Mattingly. I'm sure either one will translate to immediate success:rolleyes:

[drewcifer]

Yes and no. I don't think Torre thinks he will get more elsewhere. It's more that he read the message implicit in a pay cut and a one-year contract, and that was that he was not respected or appreciated by Yankee brass and would be under the microscope all of next year, and he said "no, thanks anyway."

I agree with you. It's not about $ in the sense of the market being willing to pay more. But it is in the sense that it was the Yankees who set his value at $7M, and the same team is now sending a message that he's not worth that much.

Also, I got a real kick out of the BS incentives they offered him ($1M for DS, $1M for CS, $1M for WS)... That might make sense for a GM, but that's ridiculous to apply to a manager. IMO, his job is to manage the team through the season and get them to the playoffs. If he does that year in and year out, he's a success. Having a team of players at that point forward with juice in the tank to keep winning, not to mention pitching that is better than Wang as the team ace, is Cashman's job. Not his.

[Fenway]

One big difference between Chicago and the Northeast. Baseball makes the FRONT page often in both cities but rarely do you see the Sun-Times devote the entire front page with sports

http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2007/10/19/alg_frontback_1019.jpg (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/galleries/october_front_pages/october_front_pages.html)

Torre walks away from Yanks (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/10/19/2007-10-19_joe_torre_refuses_to_take_pay_cut_walks_.html)

Joe Torre rejected a one-year, "performance-based," $5 million contract to return as manager of the Yankees on Thursday, ending a historic 12-year run. See Complete coverage (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/10/19/2007-10-19_end_of_an_era.html) +

List starts with Mattingly, ends at Boss (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/10/19/2007-10-19_yankees_list_starts_with_don_mattingly_b.html)

Don Mattingly remains the front-runner to take over for Joe Torre and lead the Yankees into their next era as well as a new Stadium, but the club has no plans to hand the reins over to the bench coach without doing an exhaustive search. +
Last scene in a class act (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/10/19/2007-10-19_joe_torre_the_first_manager_to_fire_geor.html)

Mike Lupica: Maybe Joe Torre had already decided, before he ever got near Legends Field, that he was going to be the first manager to ever fire George Steinbrenner. +
How it all went down in Tampa (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/10/19/2007-10-19_inside_the_tampa_meeting_joe_torre_loses.html)

Bill Madden: When Joe Torre walked into George Steinbrenner's office on the fourth floor of Legends Field in Tampa on Thursday, he knew what was going to happen.
Joe Torre was on top of the world (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/10/19/2007-10-19_in_12_seasons_in_bronx_joe_torre_was_on_.html)

Harper: Yankees lacked stomach (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/10/19/2007-10-19_yankees_did_not_have_the_guts_to_fire_jo-1.html)

Raissman: Joe says no, but it ain't on YES (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/10/19/2007-10-19_joe_torre_says_no_but_it_aint_on_yes-4.html)

How could you do this, say irate fans (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/10/19/2007-10-19_how_could_you_do_this_to_joe_torre_ask_i-2.html)

Departure a downer for Damon (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/10/19/2007-10-19_joe_torres_departure_a_downer_for_johnny-2.html)

Red Sox have bigger worries (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/10/19/2007-10-19_red_sox_have_bigger_worries_than_joe_tor.html)

Torre might enter TV Fox hole (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/10/19/2007-10-19_joe_torre_might_enter_tv_fox_hole-2.html)

http://www.nypost.com/seven/10192007/img/front101907.jpghttp://www.nypost.com/seven/10192007/img/back101907.jpg


CLASS DISMISSED

(http://www.nypost.com/seven/10192007/sports/yankees/class_dismissed.htm)CLEVELAND - The more you think about it, the more you understand that there was nothing the Yankees could ever do to make this end well


TORRE STORY REACHES END (http://www.nypost.com/seven/10192007/sports/yankees/torre_story_reaches_end.htm)

TAMPA, Fla. - The Joe Torre Era ended at Legends Field yesterday when the second winningest manager in Yankee history and a... more (http://www.nypost.com/seven/10192007/sports/yankees/torre_story_reaches_end.htm) >

HIS BIGGEST MISTAKE COMES OFF THE FIELD

(http://www.nypost.com/seven/10192007/sports/yankees/his_biggest_mistake_comes_off_.htm)JOE Torre's worst mistake of October was not starting Chien-Ming Wang on the road or failing to demand a delay when those Lake Erie... more (http://www.nypost.com/seven/10192007/sports/yankees/his_biggest_mistake_comes_off_.htm) >

[itsnotrequired]

Discussions of his status during the postseason set aside, do you guys think he would have taken a one year deal at the SAME pay as this year with the $1 million postseason escalators as bonuses? Or do the years play into it more so than the money?

[Red Barchetta]

What I find funny is how the media mentioned he's "unemployed" and "needs a job". Too funny! With the money he has already made and what he will make in the future (managing/broadcasting), I don't think we need to worry about Joe getting a part time job at Home Depot to cover the bills. :cool:

What would have been cool would be for Joe to have accepted the offer, basically throwing it back in the Boss' face and then after the press release announcing his return, he then donates his 2008 salary to his favorite charity, 911 Fireman/Cops widows/families, etc. :tongue:

[fquaye149]

Discussions of his status during the postseason set aside, do you guys think he would have taken a one year deal at the SAME pay as this year with the $1 million postseason escalators as bonuses? Or do the years play into it more so than the money?

The years are part of it, as are the bonus structure.

I think he might simply be fed up with New York, and it would have taken a gesture of good faith on the Yankees part to the tune of a 3+ year deal at the same pay to keep him.

Then again, it's impossible to say...but it's pretty easy to say that the triptych of:

1.) paycut
2.) incentives
3.) one year deal

was never meant to retain him

[itsnotrequired]

The years are part of it, as are the bonus structure.

I think he might simply be fed up with New York, and it would have taken a gesture of good faith on the Yankees part to the tune of a 3+ year deal at the same pay to keep him.

Then again, it's impossible to say...but it's pretty easy to say that the triptych of:

1.) paycut
2.) incentives
3.) one year deal

was never meant to retain him

Torre earned $7 million this last season. If a 2008 deal was for 1 yr at $7 million with $1 million bonus each for winning the ALDS, ALCS and WS, do you think he would have taken it?

[Fenway]

from WFAN

No More Joe: Joe Torre turns down the offer from the New York Yankees to be Manager in 2008. Click Here (http://64.246.64.33/default.asp?c=wfan&page=mlb/news/AAN4108281.htm) to read more. Below are audio cuts from the conference call with Yankee management:


Randy Levine Opening Statement (javascript:openPlayer('Episode',1073789);) | Brian Cashman On Replacement (javascript:openPlayer('Episode',1073840);) | Randy Levine On Structure Of Contract (javascript:openPlayer('Episode',1073846);) | Brian Cashman On If Torre Knew (javascript:openPlayer('Episode',1073865);) | Brian Cashman On If He Pursuaded Joe (javascript:openPlayer('Episode',1073872);) | Hal Steinbrenner On Father's Edict (javascript:openPlayer('Episode',1073876);) | Brian Cashman On New Manager (javascript:openPlayer('Episode',1073894);) | Brian Cashman On Weeks Events (javascript:openPlayer('Episode',1073897);) | Brian Cashman On Free Agents (javascript:openPlayer('Episode',1073898);)

[fquaye149]

Torre earned $7 million this last season. If a 2008 deal was for 1 yr at $7 million with $1 million bonus each for winning the ALDS, ALCS and WS, do you think he would have taken it?

Like I said, probably not....

The negatives to the deal were threefold (years, incentives, paycut). Removing the paycut wouldn't have fixed the years and incentives...

of course, there's no way to know for sure

[Frater Perdurabo]

I wish 100 years of 100-loss seasons upon the Yankees and their fans.

[Fenway]

I wish 100 years of 100-loss seasons upon the Yankees and their fans.

Next season promises to be a full blown disaster for NYY

Gawd help the next manager if they MISS the playoffs

[Frater Perdurabo]

Next season promises to be a full blown disaster for NYY

Gawd help the next manager if they MISS the playoffs

I hope all their potential free agent stars leave and that the Yankees finish with 100+ losses, in last place, 20 games behind Tampa Bay.

[TheVulture]

Steinbrenner should've been kissing Torre's feet for keeping a team full of dinosaurs and a patchwork pitching staff in the postseason year after year. Granted, a team full of top of the line dinosaurs, but dinosaurs none the less. I'm just glad this didn't happen last year when the cubs were looking for a manager.

[itsnotrequired]

Like I said, probably not....

The negatives to the deal were threefold (years, incentives, paycut). Removing the paycut wouldn't have fixed the years and incentives...

of course, there's no way to know for sure

I wouldn't think so either but I am intrigued by the proposal. Sort of in a "we will bring you back for the same pay since you did a good job, just not quite good enough to warrant multiple years but if you win it all, you will get a bunch of extra money and then we will talk" sort of way. What they offered though basically meant he had to win the ALCS just to get back to where he was before. And if they lost in the series, the same game would be played again.

[russ99]

I really think the Yankees made this lowball offer to allow Torre to rightfully dismiss it and thus leave with some dignity.

A prince among men, that Steinbrenner...

[Paulwny]

I really think the Yankees made this lowball offer to allow Torre to rightfully dismiss it and thus leave with some dignity.

A prince among men, that Steinbrenner...

You got it, offer a contract you know will be refused is a lot better for Torre vs not being offerred a contract.

[fquaye149]

I wouldn't think so either but I am intrigued by the proposal. Sort of in a "we will bring you back for the same pay since you did a good job, just not quite good enough to warrant multiple years but if you win it all, you will get a bunch of extra money and then we will talk" sort of way. What they offered though basically meant he had to win the ALCS just to get back to where he was before. And if they lost in the series, the same game would be played again.


I would expect a realistic deal would have been a 4 year contract with a team option on the last two years at same $ level

especially since money's clearly not an object for NY

[fquaye149]

Also, I had heard that Posada and Rivera are two players who have said they won't come back if Torre is dismissed.... can anyone confirm that?

Further, they'll lose A-Rod and Clemens?

Things are looking bright for Yankee haters

[Paulwny]

Torre's contract refusal came on the same day that the yanks dismissed Casey Stengel 47 yrs ago. Stengel also managed the yanks for 12 yrs and won 10 AL pennants and 7 WS.

[Fenway]

Tom Verducchi of SI.com unloads on the Yankees

Blood on their hands (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/tom_verducci/10/18/torre/index.html)

Yanks look disorganized, cowardly after Torre's exit (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/tom_verducci/10/18/torre/index.html)

[Lip Man 1]

Watched a little of his press conference while using the exercise bike and I've got to tell you, the man has a lot of class.

He answered questions thoughtfully, honestly, called reporters by their name...just a very very good performance.

Granted I still don't think he was that great of a manager, anyone who had the advantages he had in New York should have succeeded (and he did) but you still have to ask why he was so bad in Atlanta (save for 1982), the Mets and St. Louis.

I think he'll manage again elsewhere but I'd be surprised if he had any real success (unless of course he takes over the Red Sox and their 150 million dollar payroll! :tongue:)

Lip

[fquaye149]

Watched a little of his press conference while using the exercise bike and I've got to tell you, the man has a lot of class.

He answered questions thoughtfully, honestly, called reporters by their name...just a very very good performance.

Granted I still don't think he was that great of a manager, anyone who had the advantages he had in New York should have succeeded (and he did) but you still have to ask why he was so bad in Atlanta (save for 1982), the Mets and St. Louis.

I think he'll manage again elsewhere but I'd be surprised if he had any real success (unless of course he takes over the Red Sox and their 150 million dollar payroll! :tongue:)

Lip

:?:Torre won with young kids and farmhands, and he won with high payrolls in NY.

It's not like all he had to do was sit back and watch flawless teams win.

[Fenway]

Torre speaks

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3070544

[Fenway]

Granted I still don't think he was that great of a manager, anyone who had the advantages he had in New York should have succeeded (and he did) but you still have to ask why he was so bad in Atlanta (save for 1982), the Mets and St. Louis.


Francona still doesn't have a contract.

Torre is like Casey Stengel. Sure he had the Yankees from 47-60 but how great was he with the Boston Braves and NY Mets?

[DSpivack]

Francona still doesn't have a contract.

Torre is like Casey Stengel. Sure he had the Yankees from 47-60 but how great was he with the Boston Braves and NY Mets?

Even Stengel said "I couldn't have done it without the players", right?

[fquaye149]

You can't do it without the players, but most managers DON'T do it, even with the players...

And almost all managers don't do it four times....

[Lip Man 1]

fquaye:

Then why didn't he get the job done in three other places?

Look I'm not putting him down, he's a fine manager but let's not make him out to be a 'God' like some of our friends in the New York media are.

Joe was terriffic dealing with the ego's and the media in New York, a lot like Phil Jackson...but let's not kid ourselves, having a payroll so far greater then anyone else in baseball is a tremendous advantage, the biggest one of all.

If nothing else it allows you to buy over your mistakes.

Lip

[Brian26]

fquaye:

Then why didn't he get the job done in three other places?


Its slightly unfair to imply a manager can't grow and learn through experience, just like all of us. It's safe to assume Torre probably wasn't the same manager in 1982 with the Braves that he was in '96 and '98 with the NYY.

[Noneck]

It all about what have you done lately. The fact is he lost the last 3 years in the 1st rd. of playoffs with salaries well over twice the amount of almost all teams in baseball. He is offered a salary that is higher than any other manager in baseball. The 1 year term of contract was correct at this stage of his tenure, it is time to win or leave. Maybe he is a nice guy, Maybe he is a good manager, but its all about winning with the yanks. At least he was given the final chance to show he could.

[Noneck]

Francona still doesn't have a contract.



I hope you realize by now, Nobody really cares.

[bigfoot]

I wish 100 years of 100-loss seasons upon the Yankees and their fans.


It's a start!:bandance:

[Fenway]

I hope you realize by now, Nobody really cares.

If Francona does not win the pennant his job is in jeopardy. In fact there are rumblings he may quit no matter what. He has been seething since Ozzie got his deal. Francona is underpaid.

[Scottiehaswheels]

If Francona does not win the pennant his job is in jeopardy. In fact there are rumblings he may quit no matter what. He has been seething since Ozzie got his deal. Francona is underpaid.Good and Good. Can he take the obnoxious Boston fans with him to, I dunno... Japan? It'd be nice to see Boston/NY battle for last place next year for a refreshing change.

[ode to veeck]

Next season promises to be a full blown disaster for NYY

Gawd help the next manager if they MISS the playoffs

Immediately before Torre, didn't Steinbrenner go through like 9 managers in as many years

[itsnotrequired]

If Francona does not win the pennant his job is in jeopardy. In fact there are rumblings he may quit no matter what. He has been seething since Ozzie got his deal. Francona is underpaid.

Francona and Ozzie have been managing for four seasons now. Both have won a world series but Francona has piloted the Red Sox to two additional playoff appearances. The team has 375 wins in his tenure compared to Ozzie's 344 wins. Ozzie made $1.1 million this season, Francona made $1.65 million.

Despite the team having the worst record in 12 years, Ozzie just got an extension through 2012 and the deal is rumored to be worth $10-$11 million. Meanwhile, Francona is in limbo.

[itsnotrequired]

Immediately before Torre, didn't Steinbrenner go through like 9 managers in as many years

It was actually six in the previous nine. Before Showalter was when it was really in limbo. FIVE different managers in only THREE years.

[ode to veeck]

One big difference between Chicago and the Northeast. Baseball makes the FRONT page often in both cities but rarely do you see the Sun-Times devote the entire front page with sports


The Post and the Daily News are like the Enquirer and the Star of newspapers. You don't see the NY Times LA Times W Post etc devoting whole front pages to sports either. I'm not saying the Sun-Times and Trib are all that great either (they've both really degenerated last 20 years)

[Fenway]

The Post and the Daily News are like the Enquirer and the Star of newspapers. You don't see the NY Times LA Times W Post etc devoting whole front pages to sports either. I'm not saying the Sun-Times and Trib are all that great either (they've both really degenerated last 20 years)

Well Chicago may soon get a tabloid again. If Murdoch convinces the FCC and Congress to change media ownership rules he has made it clear he intends to buy back the Sun Times. Chicago is the only market he has failed in and it gnaws at him.

http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2007/10/20/alg_frontback_1020.jpg (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/galleries/october_front_pages/october_front_pages.html)

Bitter taste for Torre (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/10/20/2007-10-20_drained_joe_torre_may_not_return_to_stad.html)

Joe Torre certainly will go down as one of the legendary figures in Yankees' history, but with his acrimonious departure this week, it's no sure thing that we'll be seeing Torre in the Bronx again anytime soon. See Complete coverage (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/10/20/2007-10-20_joe_torre_talks_about_leaving_yankees-1.html) +

Mattingly, Girardi, Pena get first calls (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/10/20/2007-10-20_don_mattingly_joe_girardi_tony_pena_get_-2.html)

The search for Joe Torre's successor is officially underway, with three familiar faces already getting calls from Brian Cashman on Friday. +
Torre can be money machine (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/10/20/2007-10-20_who_needs_the_yankees_joe_torre_can_be_m-1.html)

Even without drawing a paycheck from the Yankees, Joe Torre could easily earn more per year than the $5 million deal he walked away from, experts said Friday. +

Mike Lupica (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/10/20/2007-10-20_joe_torres_goodbye_signals_end_of_more_t.html)+

Joe Torre's goodbye signals end of more than one era.

Filip Bondy (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/10/20/2007-10-20_no_chance_for_happy_ending_to_joe_torre_.html)

Happy ending to Torre story was never going to happen.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/10202007/img/front102007.jpg http://www.nypost.com/seven/10202007/img/back102007.jpg

JOE SAYS OFFER A 1-YEAR BLUNDER

CONTRACT INCENTIVES WERE AN 'INSULT'

By GEORGE KING
October 20, 2007 - Joe Torre surmised that Brian Cashman was in his corner Thursday at Legends Field when the Yankees made Torre an offer he easily refused."There were probably a person or two who wanted me back," Torre told a packed press conference in Rye yesterday, one day after the Torre Era - which... MORE (http://www.nypost.com/seven/10202007/sports/yankees/joe_says_offer_a_1_year_blunde.htm) >

OUTSIDE THE LINES

(http://www.nypost.com/seven/10202007/sports/yankees/outside_the_lines.htm)TORRE'S SUCCESS WENT BEYOND THE DIAMOND

By JOEL SHERMAN

JOE TORRE removed Johnny Damon from center field, Mike Mussina from the rotation and Jason Giambi from the every day lineup. Torre did all of that last season and not only did not lose his team, he...more (http://www.nypost.com/seven/10202007/sports/yankees/outside_the_lines.htm) >
(http://www.nypost.com/seven/10202007/sports/yankees/royals_hire_hillman.htm)

GAME 2 DECISION BUGS JOE

(http://www.nypost.com/seven/10202007/sports/yankees/game_2_decision_bugs_joe.htm)By MARK HALE

At Joe Torre's press conference yesterday at the Hilton Rye Town, the Yankees' former manager said he was sorry he had trainer Gene Monahan come to the mound to tend to Joba Chamberlain when...more (http://www.nypost.com/seven/10202007/sports/yankees/game_2_decision_bugs_joe.htm) >
ONE TOUGH JOB

(http://www.nypost.com/seven/10202007/sports/yankees/one_tough_job.htm)FOLLOWING LEGEND A DIFFICULT TASK

By BRIAN COSTELLO

Gene Bartow can sympathize with the man who will sit in the Yankees manager's office next year. He knows the microscope that will focus on every move made by Joe Torre's successor, knows what...more (http://www.nypost.com/seven/10202007/sports/yankees/one_tough_job.htm) >
NO TIMETABLE TO NAME NEXT JOE

(http://www.nypost.com/seven/10202007/sports/yankees/no_timetable_to_name_next_joe.htm)By GEORGE KING

Joe Girardi, Tony Pena and Don Mattingly have been informed they are on the list to replace Joe Torre. “I have told them I am interested in interviewing them," GM Brian Cashman said yesterday...more (http://www.nypost.com/seven/10202007/sports/yankees/no_timetable_to_name_next_joe.htm) >
IT SHOULD BE THE DON OF A NEW DAY

(http://www.nypost.com/seven/10202007/sports/yankees/it_should_be_the_don_of_a_new_.htm)By KEVIN KERNAN

I stopped at the Yankees Clubhouse Shop on 42nd Street yesterday - nice place, nice people - but there wasn't a Joe Torre jersey anywhere. There were all kinds of Yankees shirts - new ones, old...more (http://www.nypost.com/seven/10202007/sports/yankees/it_should_be_the_don_of_a_new_.htm) >

[FarWestChicago]

Also, I got a real kick out of the BS incentives they offered him ($1M for DS, $1M for CS, $1M for WS)... That might make sense for a GM, but that's ridiculous to apply to a manager. IMO, his job is to manage the team through the season and get them to the playoffs. If he does that year in and year out, he's a success. Having a team of players at that point forward with juice in the tank to keep winning, not to mention pitching that is better than Wang as the team ace, is Cashman's job. Not his.:fobbgod:

You're full of ****! The playoffs are pure luck and have nothing to do with the GM!

[fquaye149]

fquaye:

Then why didn't he get the job done in three other places?

Why didn't other managers get the job done in NY?

Manager/player relationships are nebulous, the relation a manager has to wins is nebulous...

All I know is NY is a difficult place to manage, and Steinbrenner had a devil of a time finding success before Torre.

Finally he finds a manager who is able to be professional AND successful without exception in one of the most difficult markets.

Whether Torre is a "great manager" or just a "great manager for the particular job he has as NYY manager" is immaterial. The fact is, he's been a great manager of the Yankees, and for Steinbrenner to just cast that aside is symptomatic of why the Yankees are going to be a mediocre team for the forseeable future no matter how much Cash and Stein "buy success"


Look I'm not putting him down, he's a fine manager but let's not make him out to be a 'God' like some of our friends in the New York media are.
He's not God, for sure. I wouldn't want him managing the White Sox, but he is just about the perfect manager for the Yankees:

-experienced (so players, no matter how high-profile must respect him)
-calm (in the face of extreme pressure)
-respectful and classy (so as not to pose a potential distraction to his team or become the story)
-a proven winner, at least for his current team and for a long time.

Probably the best manager the Yankees could hope to have...just like pitchers who are successful in NY (Pettite, for instance) you're crazy to get rid of a manager who's successful in NY because it's been shown time and again that even the most talented pitchers and managers have been known to struggle in the Bronx (cough cough Lou Pineilla)


Joe was terriffic dealing with the ego's and the media in New York, a lot like Phil Jackson...but let's not kid ourselves, having a payroll so far greater then anyone else in baseball is a tremendous advantage, the biggest one of all.

Phil Jackson is a perfect analogy. Yes, if you put Jackson with mediocre talent, he's a mediocre manager, but who is better with superstars? And who comprises the NYY roster?


If nothing else it allows you to buy over your mistakes.

Lip

You have always made more of this high payroll than you ought to. Fact is, since the Yankees started making huge free agent splashes they have ZERO world series to show for it. Yes, Cone, Clemens, Mussina had all contributed to WS titles, but those are hardly the "buying a championship" deals you're talking about...

Giambi, Kevin Brown, Jaret Wright, Gary Sheffield, Johnny Damon, Tom Gordon, the A-Rod trade et al represent the kind of spending you're describing--hystrionically overreaching contracts--

ZERO championships combined for those players as Yankees.

So what's this advantage you're talking about?

[Fenway]

Torre was a master at handling the New York media ( as Francona is in Boston )

Yankees and Boston are the most high profile manager jobs in baseball because of the media both teams attract. Most teams deal with 1 or 2 papers...NY has 8 papers following the team and Boston has 6.

Francona plays favorites with the media. He gave Sean McAdam the word that Coco was being benched tonight in favor of Ellsbury....no other paper had the story this morning.

Torre sounds very bitter in this interview with Mike and Mad Dog on WFAN

http://www.wfan.com/episode_download.php?contentType=36&contentId=1076060 (http://www.wfan.com/episode_download.php?contentType=36&contentId=1076060)

[PaleHoseGeorge]

Steinbrenner and his next manager deserve one another.

Here's predicting that relationship won't last even half as long as Torre's with the ballclub... nor be even 1/4th as successful for the franchise.

[Lip Man 1]

fquaye:

I'm talking about 13 consecutive post season appearance. Money CAN buy that.

As a White Sox fan, I'd kill to have a stretch like that World Championships or not.

It sure beats going home the first week of October doesn't it?

If you have the point of view that if you don't win the World Series then you're a loser, then your point is valid.

As for me I find to hard to fathom that making the playoffs but not winning it all puts you in that category.

Brian:

Your point is true but remember Torre managed 15 YEARS in MLB before the Yankees. He had very limited success. He must of 'grown' an awful lot then...I mean he didn't just have a cup of coffeee for a year or two in charge of something.

I'm just saying the size of the 'growth' was at least in part, directly because of the 'growth' of the payroll.

Lip

[Fenway]

If Joe Torre is a "failure" where does that leave Bobby Cox?

[fquaye149]

fquaye:

I'm talking about 13 consecutive post season appearance. Money CAN buy that.

As a White Sox fan, I'd kill to have a stretch like that World Championships or not.

between you and i, that makes one of us then. If I had to deal with preseason WS expectations and constantly not win in the postseason, I would start to question, as a White Sox fan, whether a precipitous payroll really helps the team.


It sure beats going home the first week of October doesn't it? You mean going home the 2nd week does? Maybe...I doubt it though, especially after the first 3 or 4 seasons of losing in the playoffs


If you have the point of view that if you don't win the World Series then you're a loser, then your point is valid.

No. I would say for the White Sox and our 100 m payroll and 2 playoff appearances in the past 14 years that making the playoffs is a successful season.

I would say for the Yankees and their 200 m payroll and streak of making the playoffs for the past, what, 12 years, that losing in the playoffs wouldn't really constitute a successful season, and I would also suggest that losing in the playoffs with a 200 m payroll and 12 year playoff-making streak suggests that 200m payroll don't really help too much.


As for me I find to hard to fathom that making the playoffs but not winning it all puts you in that category.

like I says, definition of success changes depending on what expectations are. Clearly if the Royals made the playoffs next year it would be a great season for them even if they got swept out of the first round after being outscored 32-4 or something.

If that happened to the Yankees, that would definitely be a failure. The only thing that kept this season from being a complete disaster for the Yankees is that by mid June the expectation was that they wouldn't even make the playoffs

And this with a payroll 2x as much as all but the most despicable teams in baseball (Boston, NYM, LA Dodgers, etc)