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hose
10-14-2007, 08:57 AM
Kurt Brown at # 5

Barry Bonds was selected by the Pirates with the #6 pick.

Could you imagine Bonds playing RF and hitting behind Hurt in the line up...whoa.

The Sox did get Thigy, Wayne Edwards and Donn Pall out of that draft.

DumpJerry
10-14-2007, 09:22 AM
Could you imagine Bonds playing RF and hitting behind Hurt in the line up...whoa.
Too speculative. You're assuming that even with Barroid, the Sox would have had the same draft pick in 1989 when they picked Frank. This means Barroid would have had no impact whatsoever on the Sox' performance in 1986, 1987 or 1988 (he debuted in 1986).

KyWhiSoxFan
10-14-2007, 09:26 AM
Kurt Brown at # 5

Barry Bonds was selected by the Pirates with the #6 pick.

Could you imagine Bonds playing RF and hitting behind Hurt in the line up...whoa.

The Sox did get Thigy, Wayne Edwards and Donn Pall out of that draft.

At that point in his career, assuming everything went about the same as it did in Pittsburgh, Bonds would have been leading off or at the top of the order somewhere, not hitting behind Frank. Still, it would have been nice to have had him rather than Kurt Brown.

Frontman
10-14-2007, 09:29 AM
Pure speculation. Oh sure, if certain things happened, it might of been cool to see Bonds and Thomas on the same team.

Granted, Barry wouldn't of done steriods allegedly.

:rolleyes:

Things happen for a reason. I for one am glad that the Sox are NOT a part of the history that Barry Bonds has written.

Bad enough we had Jose Conseco for a while.

jabrch
10-14-2007, 09:49 AM
What if we drafted Roger Clemens in 1983 instead of Joel Davis?

KyWhiSoxFan
10-14-2007, 10:17 AM
What if we drafted Roger Clemens in 1983 instead of Joel Davis?

He would be insisting that he go into the Hall of Fame with a Yankees cap, not a White Sox cap.

TommyJohn
10-14-2007, 10:49 AM
Kurt Brown at # 5

Barry Bonds was selected by the Pirates with the #6 pick.

Could you imagine Bonds playing RF and hitting behind Hurt in the line up...whoa.

The Sox did get Thigy, Wayne Edwards and Donn Pall out of that draft.

Not this again. He was selected at #6, which means four other teams besides
the White Sox passed on him.

In fact, you could fill a large book with names of players who were drafted
low and went on to be stars, while guys drafted higher never went
anywhere. Steve Chillcott, anyone?

Lip Man 1
10-14-2007, 12:11 PM
And if (as Jack McDowell stated in his WSI Interview) the Sox signed Mark McGuire who wanted to come here after the 1991 season, perhaps they don't trade Sosa, instead keeping him down in the order, allowing him time to develop.

With that scenario you have a lineup that includes Ventura, Thomas, McGuire and Sosa.

:smile:

You can 'speculate' about anything. I guess I just fail to see this particular point.

Lip

TDog
10-14-2007, 12:24 PM
Too speculative. You're assuming that even with Barroid, the Sox would have had the same draft pick in 1989 when they picked Frank. This means Barroid would have had no impact whatsoever on the Sox' performance in 1986, 1987 or 1988 (he debuted in 1986).

I made this point the last time this speculation appeared in a WSI thread. If Barry Bonds had only meant an improvement of a few games in 1988, Frank Thomas quite possibly could have been drafted by the Cubs, who drafted one spot behind the Sox in 1989.

Barry Bonds was a big star at Arizona State University. He wasn't under any scout's radar. If the Sox didn't draft him, it may have had something to do with Bobby Bonds' experience with the White Sox less than a decade earlier.

Overall, the Sox are probably better off never having had the younger Bonds under contract.

getonbckthr
10-14-2007, 03:37 PM
We could have signed Bonds and Clemens as free agents. We thought Belle and Navarro were worth the same amount of money.:angry:

PaleHoseGeorge
10-14-2007, 03:39 PM
I made this point the last time this speculation appeared in a WSI thread. If Barry Bonds had only meant an improvement of a few games in 1988, Frank Thomas quite possibly could have been drafted by the Cubs, who drafted one spot behind the Sox in 1989.

I think it's interesting how well the Sox have faired over the last 20+ years in (mostly) maintaining a competitive roster and a winning record in spite of never getting the high draft picks that perennial 90-loss franchises are picking up year after lovable losing year.

:cool:

pmck003
10-14-2007, 04:28 PM
Too speculative. You're assuming that even with Barroid, the Sox would have had the same draft pick in 1989 when they picked Frank. This means Barroid would have had no impact whatsoever on the Sox' performance in 1986, 1987 or 1988 (he debuted in 1986).

It is interesting to think how the regrets the Sox have had may have led to better things long term. Reasons like this are why I don't like to see a team change Managers or GM's too early, 'cause three-four years isn't enough to evaluate what they can do. Out of frustration, I was for the Grossman switch when it happened. But now there's the same questions as before we went to Brian. And the Bears gave up on a long term solution.

RadioheadRocks
10-14-2007, 08:13 PM
I think it's interesting how well the Sox have faired over the last 20+ years in (mostly) maintaining a competitive roster and a winning record in spite of never getting the high draft picks that perennial 90-loss franchises are picking up year after lovable losing year.

:cool:

:thumbsup:

DumpJerry
10-14-2007, 08:41 PM
...and then there's the fact that Joe Montana was drafted in the Third Round meaning the Bears passed on him two or three times. Woulda, coulda, shoulda....

TDog
10-15-2007, 03:00 AM
We could have signed Bonds and Clemens as free agents. We thought Belle and Navarro were worth the same amount of money.:angry:

Some of your anger may derive from misperception. Your premise is flawed.

The White Sox signed Albert Belle to a five-year $55 million contract before the 1997 season. During the same off-season, they signed Jaime Navarro to a four-year $20 million contract. Some people believe the Sox had a choice of signing Navarro and Roger Clemens for the same money, but the Blue Jays signed Clemens that off-season to a four-year $40 million contract

The White Sox didn't pursue Barry Bonds before the 1997 season because Frank Thomas said he said he wanted the Sox to sign Belle. Belle's $11 per year made him the highest player in baseball. Clemens was averaging $10 a year after signing with the Blue Jays, so he wasn't that far behind. After signing Belle (and it's conceivable they could have signed Bonds for the same money, I guess), Navarro may have been affordable. Clemens was not.

DumpJerry
10-15-2007, 06:45 AM
Some of your anger may derive from misperception. Your premise is flawed.

The White Sox signed Albert Belle to a five-year $55 million contract before the 1997 season. During the same off-season, they signed Jaime Navarro to a four-year $20 million contract. Some people believe the Sox had a choice of signing Navarro and Roger Clemens for the same money, but the Blue Jays signed Clemens that off-season to a four-year $40 million contract

The White Sox didn't pursue Barry Bonds before the 1997 season because Frank Thomas said he said he wanted the Sox to sign Belle. Belle's $11 per year made him the highest player in baseball. Clemens was averaging $10 a year after signing with the Blue Jays, so he wasn't that far behind. After signing Belle (and it's conceivable they could have signed Bonds for the same money, I guess), Navarro may have been affordable. Clemens was not.
What geton is referring to is the fact that Clemens said he wanted to sign with the Sox and Schu said he was "washed up" and went with Navarro instead.

johnr1note
10-15-2007, 06:54 AM
Some of your anger may derive from misperception. Your premise is flawed.

The White Sox signed Albert Belle to a five-year $55 million contract before the 1997 season. During the same off-season, they signed Jaime Navarro to a four-year $20 million contract. Some people believe the Sox had a choice of signing Navarro and Roger Clemens for the same money, but the Blue Jays signed Clemens that off-season to a four-year $40 million contract

The White Sox didn't pursue Barry Bonds before the 1997 season because Frank Thomas said he said he wanted the Sox to sign Belle. Belle's $11 per year made him the highest player in baseball. Clemens was averaging $10 a year after signing with the Blue Jays, so he wasn't that far behind. After signing Belle (and it's conceivable they could have signed Bonds for the same money, I guess), Navarro may have been affordable. Clemens was not.

Your premise is also flawed, because Bonds was not a free agent during the 96-97 offseason. The story goes that Reinsdorf asked Frank who he would rather have, Bonds or Belle, and Frank preferred Belle. But in any event, if the Sox wanted Bonds in 1997, they would have had to trade for him. Belle was the easier choice because he was available for the cash.

SBSoxFan
10-15-2007, 08:01 AM
What if we drafted Roger Clemens in 1983 instead of Joel Davis?

Shoot, by '83 Clemens was washed up!

Lip Man 1
10-15-2007, 11:44 AM
Johnny:

Regarding your story.

It's true JR asked Frank who he would want if he could have one player on the Sox.

After getting the answer JR was so amazed that he said, "you know Bonds is available?" and Frank again said Belle.

SF was having money issues since at that time they still couldn't get a new park build and Bonds' salary was a millstone around their neck....yes he was available in trade.

Lip

TDog
10-15-2007, 12:56 PM
What geton is referring to is the fact that Clemens said he wanted to sign with the Sox and Schu said he was "washed up" and went with Navarro instead.

I know that is what he is referring to, and my premise isn't flawed because it isn't a premise. I am dealing in reality rather than speculation. Although Ron Schueler made the comment, the idea that the White Sox simply chose Navarro over Clemens is a persistent myth that isn't close to the truth.

Most baseball general managers believed Clemens was washed up, at least in respect to the sort of money he was demanding. Clemens had a losing record in 1996. He had not won more than 11 games since 1992. Yet, he was demanding a near-record contract. The Blue Jays ended up signing him for an average of $10 million a year over four years. Navarro signed for $5 million a year over four years. He had won five more games than Clemens in 1996 and came at half the cost. The White Sox never talked to Clemens that I know of. The common perception was that he was not worth the money he was demanding, and only a few teams seriously talked with him.

The mistake was not that the Sox signed Navarro instead of Clemens -- which they wouldn't have been able to do considering the priority of signing Belle to a record contract of $11 million a year. The mistake was signing Navarro instead of re-signing Kevin Tapani. The Sox Cubs let their free agent starter go and signed Tapani for $1.25 million a year less than the Sox agreed to pay Navarro. Tapani won as many games as Navarro in 1997 while losing 11 fewer. The next season, Tapani went 19-9.

People believe that Barry Bonds could have come to the White Sox at two points. First, the Sox could have drafted him. Indeed, everyone knew about Barry Bonds when he was at Arizona State University. In his junior year -- his last -- he hit 23 home runs and batted .341 in 62 games. He also ran the 100-yard dash in 9.5 seconds. At the time, I believe the sanctioned world record was 9.1 seconds, but that isn't a big point because no one claimed Bonds was within half a second of being the fastest man alive. It is incredible to think any team passed on him with his talent, but the White Sox did. Had the Sox drafted him and signed him -- Bonds had another year of eligibility at ASU -- they certainly wouldn't have been in a position to draft Frank Thomas out of Auburn.

The White Sox signed Belle after the 1996 season. Jerry Reinsdorf said in an interview that he asked Thomas what player he wanted the team to go out and get, and Thomas said he wanted Belle in the lineup. In the interview, Reinsdorf said any player, including Barry Bonds.

At the time, Barry Bonds was due to make about $8.6 million from the Giants. I don't know what it would have taken to bring him to the Sox in 1997. He probably had at least a limited no-trade clause in his contract. His father said he didn't like playing for the Sox (or even the Rangers). In fact, the White Sox didn't enjoy having Bobby Bonds on their team and made a peculiar trade to get rid of him when they had the chance. Barry Bonds went to high school in San Mateo, and the San Francisco area was his home. when he left the Pirates after the 1992 season, he went to San Francisco, a team that wanted him so much that they wasted a second-round pick in drafting him out of high school.

The persistent and flawed belief is that the White Sox could have had Roger Clemens pitching for them, although the Sox only spent half as much for free-agent pitching that off-season as it would have taken to sign Clemens. Speculation is that he might have signed for less if the Sox had talked with him, I guess. The speculation that Barry Bonds could have played for the Sox comes from the possibility that he could have been drafted and signed, which is a possibility although not a certainty. If so, the Sox likely would not have been able to draft Thomas (or Alex Fernandez).

In the area of speculation, Barry Bonds probably would have gone home to San Francisco in 1993, leaving the Sox without Bonds or Thomas.

The idea that the Sox considered Belle and Navarro to be worth the same amount of money as Bonds and Clemens is not just flawed. It is a misstatement of history. If in some alternate universe where it might have some connection with reality, Sox fans hate Frank Thomas because he played for the Cubs.

veeter
10-15-2007, 01:59 PM
At that point in his career, assuming everything went about the same as it did in Pittsburgh, Bonds would have been leading off or at the top of the order somewhere, not hitting behind Frank. Still, it would have been nice to have had him rather than Kurt Brown.I'm really getting sick of all the Kurt Brown bashing.

jabrch
10-15-2007, 03:24 PM
I'm really getting sick of all the Kurt Brown bashing.

Just relax Kurt.

BeeBeeRichard
10-15-2007, 04:29 PM
Kurt Brown appreciation page

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/kurtbrown

kittle42
10-16-2007, 07:03 AM
With that scenario you have a lineup that includes Ventura, Thomas, McGuire and Sosa.

Al McGuire?