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View Full Version : Should the Indians drop Chief Wahoo?


Fenway
10-12-2007, 11:06 AM
Hopefully this won't get roadhoused.

The Indians got their name from Louis Sockalexis the first Native-American to play in the majors.

http://members.cox.net/fj.publications/LouisSoc.JPG

Chief Wahoo came along in the 40's designed by a 17 year old art student.
Interesting column on this.

We have seen the problems at Illinois and North Dakota to name 2 schools.

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2007/10/12/1192197595_1931.jpg (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2007/10/12/theyve_had_some_chief_concerns)
Shaughnessy: Raising some chief concerns (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2007/10/12/theyve_had_some_chief_concerns)
Red Sox batter Jacoby Ellsbury, of Navajo descent, is being generous when he says he's not offended by the Cleveland Indians' Chief Wahoo logo, writes Dan Shaughnessy.

twentywontowin
10-12-2007, 11:11 AM
It's probably the least sensitive Native American based logo in sports.

Doesn't bother me nearly as much as the tomahawk chop.

Fenway
10-12-2007, 11:17 AM
It's probably the least sensitive Native American based logo in sports.

Doesn't bother me nearly as much as the tomahawk chop.

North Dakota is fighting the NCAA to keep this logo
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:5rK-HYrX6h47ZM:http://images.usatoday.com/sports/college/_photos/2006-06-15-sioux.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://images.usatoday.com/sports/college/_photos/2006-06-15-sioux.jpg&imgrefurl=http://asp.usatoday.com/community/utils/idmap/13594789.story&h=250&w=245&sz=23&hl=en&start=3&tbnid=5rK-HYrX6h47ZM:&tbnh=111&tbnw=109&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfighting%2Bsioux%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D 10%26hl%3Den)
and the name 'Fighting Sioux'

Worst thing I remember in sports was Atlanta's Chief Nokahoma
http://www.cviog.uga.edu/Projects/gainfo/nokateepee.jpg

mrfourni
10-12-2007, 11:21 AM
It's probably the least sensitive Native American based logo in sports.

Doesn't bother me nearly as much as the tomahawk chop.

I don't know. A white guy painted in war paint on a horse chucking a flaming spear is pretty insensitive. But then again, the Seminole Tribe said they were ok with it.

SBSoxFan
10-12-2007, 11:32 AM
North Dakota is fighting the NCAA to keep this logo
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:5rK-HYrX6h47ZM:http://images.usatoday.com/sports/college/_photos/2006-06-15-sioux.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://images.usatoday.com/sports/college/_photos/2006-06-15-sioux.jpg&imgrefurl=http://asp.usatoday.com/community/utils/idmap/13594789.story&h=250&w=245&sz=23&hl=en&start=3&tbnid=5rK-HYrX6h47ZM:&tbnh=111&tbnw=109&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfighting%2Bsioux%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D 10%26hl%3Den)
and the name 'Fighting Sioux'

Worst thing I remember in sports was Atlanta's Chief Nokahoma


Nokahoma is a play on words. So why is that so bad? When people hear my last name, they may make an assumption as to my descent. If they ask whether I'm Russian, I take no offense to that (even though they're wrong). Would an Eskimo mascot have been less offensive?

Anyway, for all this hand wringing over mascots and team names, I can't understand why Notre Dame never gets any flak for being the Fighting Irish.

Jerko
10-12-2007, 11:37 AM
I think the whole logo/name outrage over sports teams is ridiculous, so no, don't get rid of the logo.

MUsoxfan
10-12-2007, 11:44 AM
I'm against getting rid of any logo, unless it's changing back a "PC" logo to what it once was.

slavko
10-12-2007, 11:44 AM
It's embarrassingly offensive. If it were a cartoon of any other minority group, it would have been long gone. Dump it.

TommyJohn
10-12-2007, 11:46 AM
Hopefully this won't get roadhoused.

The Indians got their name from Louis Sockalexis the first Native-American to play in the majors.

http://members.cox.net/fj.publications/LouisSoc.JPG

Chief Wahoo came along in the 40's designed by a 17 year old art student.
Interesting column on this.

We have seen the problems at Illinois and North Dakota to name 2 schools.

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2007/10/12/1192197595_1931.jpg (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2007/10/12/theyve_had_some_chief_concerns)
Shaughnessy: Raising some chief concerns (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2007/10/12/theyve_had_some_chief_concerns)
Red Sox batter Jacoby Ellsbury, of Navajo descent, is being generous when he says he's not offended by the Cleveland Indians' Chief Wahoo logo, writes Dan Shaughnessy.

You know, Terry Pluto in one of his excellent Indian books puts the
Lou Sockalexis story down as pretty much a myth. He wrote that
the team changed their name to "Indians" before the 1915 season.
(I believe they held a contest for fans). The winner of the 1914
World Series happened to be the Boston Braves. There were no
contemporaneous references to Sockalexis when the name was changed,
and Pluto believed that the name was chosen as a way of trying to
emulate the Braves.

DSpivack
10-12-2007, 11:53 AM
Bring back the Spiders!

TommyJohn
10-12-2007, 11:54 AM
Bring back the Spiders!

The fans literally ran them out of town back in that great 20-134 year of 1899.

Fenway
10-12-2007, 12:03 PM
The original Chief Wahoo was worse IMHO

http://www.logoserver.com/baseball/ClevelandIndians4050.GIF

DSpivack
10-12-2007, 12:05 PM
The fans literally ran them out of town back in that great 20-134 year of 1899.

That's a lot of wins for the White Sox!

Apparently before the Indians, Cleveland was known as the Blues, the Bronchos, and the Naps.

spawn
10-12-2007, 12:08 PM
I look at it this way: If Native Americans themselves believe it to be offensive, it should go. It's not up to me to decide for another group what is or isn't offensive to them.

Fenway
10-12-2007, 12:16 PM
I can't understand why Notre Dame never gets any flak for being the Fighting Irish.

Good point
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:bc9bc_1ZifFBFM:http://www.irishmax.com/images/Img37.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.irishmax.com/images/Img37.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.irishmax.com/default.asp&h=347&w=381&sz=4&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=bc9bc_1ZifFBFM:&tbnh=112&tbnw=123&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfighting%2Birish%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D 10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX)

Nobody knows for sure how the name stuck

from the ND web site


One story suggests the moniker was born in 1899 with Notre Dame leading Northwestern 5-0 at halftime of a game in Evanston, Ill. The Wildcat fans supposedly began to chant, "Kill the Fighting Irish, kill the Fighting Irish," as the second half opened.
Another tale has the nickname originating at halftime of the Notre Dame-Michigan game in 1909. With his team trailing, one Notre Dame player yelled to his teammates - who happened to have names like Dolan, Kelly, Glynn, Duffy and Ryan - "What's the matter with you guys? You're all Irish and you're not fighting worth a lick."


http://und.cstv.com/trads/nd-m-fb-name.html

tebman
10-12-2007, 12:20 PM
The original Chief Wahoo was worse IMHO

http://www.logoserver.com/baseball/ClevelandIndians4050.GIF

No kidding. That's not just worse, it's scary.

spiffie
10-12-2007, 01:08 PM
Ask yourself this, if an expansion team wanted to enter the league with this logo, would anyone outside of the most stridently "screw being PC, we like offending people" sort of folks not see this offensive? If that's the case, it probably should be phased out.

hi im skot
10-12-2007, 01:10 PM
This thread could get interesting...

Jerko
10-12-2007, 01:31 PM
Not to be insensitive, but where would this all end? That original Chief Wahoo that Fenway posted looks EXACTLY like the Indians that Popeye used to beat up. Should we get rid of Popeye next? Again I'm not trying to trivialize this but we can find offense anywhere if we look hard enough. Hell people even said the Hawks logo had gang signs on it (the pitchfork on the forehead)... :rolleyes: I think the Charlotte Hornet was also blamed for "representing"..........


http://www.logoserver.com/basketball/CharlotteHornets5.GIF

Joliet Jeff
10-12-2007, 01:45 PM
The Washington Redskins. That team name can be the first to go.

Fenway
10-12-2007, 01:54 PM
The Washington Redskins. That team name can be the first to go.

The name was an accident to begin with.

In 1932 the team was the Boston 'football' Braves and played at Braves Field. The next year the team moved to Fenway Park and the owner wanting to keep an indian name chose Redskins which made it similar to Red Sox.

When the team moved to Washington he kept the name

Chez
10-12-2007, 02:01 PM
There seems to be a different "correctness" standard applied to college names than to professional team names. Chief Wahoo and the Washington Redskins would never survive NCAA scrutiny.

downstairs
10-12-2007, 02:06 PM
The only thing I find offensive is the team name "Redskins".

As well it was pretty offensive to have a non-native-American dude prance around as a cartoonish Indian for the Illini.

Other than that, I think most other nicknames celebrate the culture.

D. TODD
10-12-2007, 02:11 PM
The Wahoo logo and the Redskin name are ridiculous and should be done away with without a doubt.

If the Redskins keep their name maybe the Cowboys should be forced to change their name to the paleskins.:o:

D. TODD
10-12-2007, 02:13 PM
Not to be insensitive, but where would this all end? That original Chief Wahoo that Fenway posted looks EXACTLY like the Indians that Popeye used to beat up. Should we get rid of Popeye next? Again I'm not trying to trivialize this but we can find offense anywhere if we look hard enough. Hell people even said the Hawks logo had gang signs on it (the pitchfork on the forehead)... :rolleyes: I think the Charlotte Hornet was also blamed for "representing"..........


http://www.logoserver.com/basketball/CharlotteHornets5.GIF
Don't forget about the Bullets being seen as too violent, hence the Washington Wizards of today.

spiffie
10-12-2007, 02:16 PM
Not to be insensitive, but where would this all end? That original Chief Wahoo that Fenway posted looks EXACTLY like the Indians that Popeye used to beat up. Should we get rid of Popeye next?
No one is saying we should get rid of it from history and pretend it never existed. But would they make a Popeye cartoon today with buck-toothed "Injuns" getting drunk on fire water and stealing white women? Of course not.

Fenway
10-12-2007, 02:18 PM
Here is one that puzzles me.

In parts of Canada calling somebody a "canuck" is one of the worst things you can do


yet the Vancouver team calls themeselves Canucks

Juice16
10-12-2007, 02:38 PM
I think the whole logo/name outrage over sports teams is ridiculous, so no, don't get rid of the logo.


Thank you !!!!!!! None of these mascots were ever meant to dishonor or humiliate a person/persons. These are mascots. Some are made to honor, some to characterize. These are mascots.

Steelrod
10-12-2007, 03:04 PM
I find the Padres more offensive.

captainclutch24
10-12-2007, 03:25 PM
This is ridiculous I don't see why it is such a big deal. For example at San Diego State they had to change the Montezuma mascot from being fierce to a real panzy because, "It portrayed him as very violent." If anyone knows anything about him or Aztec culture it wasn't missing a beat. Keep all the Indian names. Next thing you know the Kansas City Chiefs will have to change their name because it has idian terminology in it because it ffends someone. *****

AZChiSoxFan
10-12-2007, 03:36 PM
I look at it this way: If Native Americans themselves believe it to be offensive, it should go. It's not up to me to decide for another group what is or isn't offensive to them.

Several years ago when all of the nonsense from the PC police first came up, a native american guy from northern arizona wrote a letter to the editor of the AZ Republic in which he stated that he specifically cheered for the Seminoles, Redskins, Braves and Indians simply BECAUSE of their team names.

WSox597
10-12-2007, 05:40 PM
Most of the Indian names were chosen because of what they represented, what people thought about Indian tribes, or nations.

Most of them weren't meant to demean, but rather to celebrate. Of course, the symbol for the Indians is rather silly looking. So I can understand changing it to something less obnoxious.

But the "Indians" name isn't meant to be demeaning, and neither is the Seminoles name, or Braves, Chiefs, and the like.

Our own BlackHawks use the Indian head on their sweaters, but they don't mean it in a demeaning way either. I understand the history behind the BlackHawk Indian war period in Illinois, but I think choosing the name honors the warrior spirit of those people.

These days it's way too easy for people to get offended. But I do respect the Indians for what some of them have endured, and I guess if the majority of them are offended, perhaps it's time to change some of the offensive logos.

You hate to see some of the names vanish though.

I agree on Chief Nockahoma, and the Tomahawk chop, those were kind of lame while also being insulting.

The drummer at Jacobs Field is kind of interesting, but I sure wouldn't want to sit anywhere near him.

Max Power
10-12-2007, 05:57 PM
from the ND web site
One story suggests the moniker was born in 1899 with Notre Dame leading Northwestern 5-0 at halftime of a game in Evanston, Ill. The Wildcat fans supposedly began to chant, "Kill the Fighting Irish, kill the Fighting Irish," as the second half opened.

http://und.cstv.com/trads/nd-m-fb-name.html (http://und.cstv.com/trads/nd-m-fb-name.html)

Notre Dame might want to check their facts; Northwestern didn't become the "Wildcats" until 1924. At the time of that 1899 game they were called the "Fighting Methodists."

spawn
10-12-2007, 06:02 PM
Several years ago when all of the nonsense from the PC police first came up, a native american guy from northern arizona wrote a letter to the editor of the AZ Republic in which he stated that he specifically cheered for the Seminoles, Redskins, Braves and Indians simply BECAUSE of their team names.
Did he mention anything about the Tomahawk chop, or Chief Wahoo? And that's one man out of how many? As I said, it's not my decision nor is it yours to determine if something is offensive to a group of people. If Native Americans come out in force and say they don't have a problem with Chief Wahoo or how the mascot looks, fine. But I do know there are Native Americans who absolutely deplore it.

Frater Perdurabo
10-12-2007, 06:39 PM
I agree with the posters who argue that it should be up to the depicted culture/ethnic group to decide if a logo or mascot is offensive. Think about this - would it be OK if they kept the team name but decided to adopt a logo that was a caricature of someone from India? What would we think about a team name like, say, "Detroit Arabs" or "Omaha Bushmen."

The worst team name, though, belongs to the NFL team from our nation's capital.

I'd like to see some pro teams in the U.S. start to adopt the naming convention of many European soccer clubs, that some U.S. soccer teams are emulating (F.C. Dallas, for example).

Fenway
10-12-2007, 06:58 PM
drummer boy John Adams is on the RF roof at Fenway

Domeshot17
10-12-2007, 07:01 PM
Im part of the group that says people need to back off a little. I mean at this rate, My Grandkids in 40-50 years will have to sit in litle rooms and just never say or do anything because everything offends someone. I guess I believe the same thing the mods do about posts about non chicago teams: If you dont like the name or logo, and you get mad when you see it, dont watch. Dont watch Redskins or Indian games, dont support them, do something else.

I mean, I guess Im just not as sensitive as some people, but to whoever said it would be like the Cowboys callin themselves the paleskins, I would more laugh at the stupidity of the name then be offended by it. It is what it is, just a name.

JB98
10-12-2007, 08:01 PM
A co-worker of mine went on a mission to an Indian reservation a few years back. The Indian who greeted him was wearing a Cleveland hat with Chief Wahoo's image on it.

The Indians aren't as offended by this crap as most white people think they are.

Railsplitter
10-12-2007, 11:03 PM
A co-worker of mine went on a mission to an Indian reservation a few years back. The Indian who greeted him was wearing a Cleveland hat with Chief Wahoo's image on it.

The Indians aren't as offended by this crap as most white people think they are.
Considering the poverty, alcoholism, and unemployment among Indians, I think they have more worries than what a sports team calls itself.

rdwj
10-12-2007, 11:13 PM
I'm really sick of the PC whining and crying over everything anyone considers offensive. As long as it's not a ethnic slur, I don't care what a team is called.

It reminds me of when our PC police went on a crusade to remove Speedy Gonzales from Cartoon Network. You want to know what group of of people complained the most when he was gone? Mexicans - I guess they didn't get the memo that they were supposed to be offended by a silly cartoon.

hi im skot
10-13-2007, 12:31 AM
Considering the poverty, alcoholism, and unemployment among Indians, I think they have more worries than what a sports team calls itself.


Aaaaaannnnnddd here's where the fun starts.


I can see both sides of the issue. Like others have mentioned, the only team name I have an issue with is in Washington, D.C.

HomeFish
10-13-2007, 12:42 AM
A couple of years ago during a rain delay in Cleveland, Ed Farmer and John Rooney started talking about why Chief Wahoo wears only one feather despite the fact that he is a chief. They concluded that since he's the Chief, he gets to wear whatever he wants, and apparently he just doesn't like feathers.

It was one of my personal favorite moments in Sox radio history.

Brian26
10-13-2007, 12:53 AM
A couple of years ago during a rain delay in Cleveland, Ed Farmer and John Rooney started talking about why Chief Wahoo wears only one feather despite the fact that he is a chief. They concluded that since he's the Chief, he gets to wear whatever he wants, and apparently he just doesn't like feathers.

It was one of my personal favorite moments in Sox radio history.

That's one of those classic Ed Farmer moments, similar to when he starts wondering outloud why Buck Schowalter wears a jacket when its 90s degrees out, and why Buck keeps at least one hand in his pocket at all times.

Sox
10-13-2007, 01:17 AM
The political correctness run amok sure got it's way when they decided it was offensive for the Illini to have Chief Illini do his dance on the Basketball court before the start of University of Illinois basketball games. I guess the powers that be in the NCAA are serious about not allowing colleges with Native American mascots to not be allowed to play in bowl games or display Native American images on their Unis. It never bothered me but then again I'm not a Native American either.

DSpivack
10-13-2007, 01:28 AM
Aaaaaannnnnddd here's where the fun starts.

I can see both sides of the issue. Like others have mentioned, the only team name I have an issue with is in Washington, D.C.

So is that the Nationals, the Wizards, the Capitals, DC United, or the Mystics? The NFL team plays in Landover, Maryland. :tongue:

eastchicagosoxfan
10-13-2007, 07:28 AM
Considering the poverty, alcoholism, and unemployment among Indians, I think they have more worries than what a sports team calls itself.

I agree with this. It would be interesting to see some info in regards to the income levels of the Native Americans calling for an end to these terms. The reservations, and all that they entail, have plenty of problems that go far beyond the names of sports teams. What the Hell ever happened to " Sticks and stones can break my bones but names will never hurt me? "

TornLabrum
10-13-2007, 09:16 AM
I'm closing this because, frankly, hearing white males complain about "PC" is not my idea of the purpose of this message board.