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View Full Version : Rowand wants 6 yr, 84 mil contract.


Sockinchisox
10-12-2007, 10:46 AM
Wow, Pass.

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/102-10122007-1422472.html

Hoping to build a foundation for a new deal, Phillies management had a recent chat with Rowand's agent, Craig Landis, and was floored to discover Rowand is seeking a six-year, $84 million contract.

salty99
10-12-2007, 10:47 AM
Yeah right like anyone will pay that!

WizardsofOzzie
10-12-2007, 10:50 AM
Yeah right like anyone will pay that!
If they want a true grinder they will

voodoochile
10-12-2007, 10:51 AM
For that much money he should be able to afford a small sonar device which can warn him when he's getting close to the wall.

Hopefully this will forever end the obsession to re-obtain Rowand...

palehozenychicty
10-12-2007, 10:52 AM
Yeah right like anyone will pay that!


Never underestimate the MLB GM. :redneck

spawn
10-12-2007, 10:54 AM
For that much money he should be able to afford a small sonar device which can warn him when he's getting close to the wall.

Hopefully this will forever end the obsession to re-obtain Rowand...
I wouldn't count on it...

voodoochile
10-12-2007, 10:57 AM
I wouldn't count on it...

How much more would Hunter cost? I'd rather have TorIIIIII for 6 years $96M than Rowand for 6/$84

Sockinchisox
10-12-2007, 10:59 AM
How much more would Hunter cost? I'd rather have TorIIIIII for 6 years $96M than Rowand for 6/$84

My thoughts exactly.

chisoxmike
10-12-2007, 10:59 AM
Wow, Pass.

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/102-10122007-1422472.html

:rolling:

sox1970
10-12-2007, 11:01 AM
I could see him getting 5 yrs, $50 million, max.

WhiteSox5187
10-12-2007, 11:13 AM
I could see him getting 5 yrs, $50 million, max.
Yea, me too...I'd be shocked if anyone shells out this kind of money for him. I'd rather have Hunter for that kind of money than Rowand...

spiffie
10-12-2007, 11:14 AM
At 5/50 I would resign him in a heartbeat. At 5/60 I would think carefully and consider it. At 6/96 I would laugh at him and tell him all the wall crashes have obviously caused some permanent damage.

thedudeabides
10-12-2007, 11:15 AM
How much more would Hunter cost? I'd rather have TorIIIIII for 6 years $96M than Rowand for 6/$84

I wouldn't pay near that much for either. You would pay $16m a year for Hunter?

voodoochile
10-12-2007, 11:18 AM
I wouldn't pay near that much for either. You would pay $16m a year for Hunter?

No, actually I would prefer not to spend that much money on either of them, but given the choice, I'd rather have TorIIII for slightly more money and there is no way it goes any higher than that, IMO.

thedudeabides
10-12-2007, 11:27 AM
No, actually I would prefer not to spend that much money on either of them, but given the choice, I'd rather have TorIIII for slightly more money and there is no way it goes any higher than that, IMO.

There's no way the Sox pay that much to either, but that doesn't mean somebody else won't.

kjhanson
10-12-2007, 11:42 AM
How much more would Hunter cost? I'd rather have TorIIIIII for 6 years $96M than Rowand for 6/$84

You do realize Hunter would be 38 when that contract expired, right?

.271/.324/.469 Career, Overall
.279/.333/.479/.37 RBI/AB (640ABs) with RISP, 2 Outs
.292/.339/.465 (87 games) out of the 7-spot
Past 7 Years: 25HR, 90RBI, 82R, 16SB

.286/.343/.462 Career, Overall
.291/.379/.442/.37 RBI/AB (330ABs) with RISP, 2 Outs
.346/.392/.517 (111 Games) out of the 2-spot
Past 4 Years: 19HR, 69RBI, 84R, 12SB

Aaron was my favorite player while he was here, but unlike others, I'm not crying for him to come back. If you had to make the choice between the two, it might be a toss-up. If you could save two million a year on Rowand, it's a no-brainer. You'd be foolish to give Torii Hunter significantly more money than Aaron Rowand, especially given his age.

Rowand isn't worth $14 million, and neither is Hunter.

SBSoxFan
10-12-2007, 11:43 AM
No, actually I would prefer not to spend that much money on either of them, but given the choice, I'd rather have TorIIII for slightly more money and there is no way it goes any higher than that, IMO.

Does that put Andruw Jones back in the picture? I would assume, given the very poor year he had last year, that a much shorter contract would be in order. Would you rather have Hunter at 6/$96, Rowand at 6/$84 or Jones at 2/$34? You take the risk that Jones will rebound, and, hopefully, in that time you can find a youngster, either internally or through trade, to replace Jones in a couple of years.

kjhanson
10-12-2007, 11:44 AM
Hunter, of course, is the first player listed. Rowand is second. Where's Lefty now? He was screaming about Mack's .354 OBP. Wait til he sees Hunter's .324 career OBP!!

spawn
10-12-2007, 11:44 AM
How much more would Hunter cost? I'd rather have TorIIIIII for 6 years $96M than Rowand for 6/$84
I agree completely. Rowand had a career year this past season, in a contract year no less. At least Torii has been consistent both offensively and defensively. Rowand is a nice player, but of the two, I'd rather have Torii.

Sockinchisox
10-12-2007, 11:47 AM
Does that put Andruw Jones back in the picture? I would assume, given the very poor year he had last year, that a much shorter contract would be in order. Would you rather have Hunter at 6/$96, Rowand at 6/$84 or Jones at 2/$34? You take the risk that Jones will rebound, and, hopefully, in that time you can find a youngster, either internally or through trade, to replace Jones in a couple of years.

Theres no way a Boras client takes a 2 year contract, I don't think at least, I dunno if it's been done before.

voodoochile
10-12-2007, 11:50 AM
I agree completely. Rowand had a career year this past season, in a contract year no less. At least Torii has been consistent both offensively and defensively. Rowand is a nice player, but of the two, I'd rather have Torii.


I agree. Hunter seems more consistently productive. Rowand has been hit or miss and when he misses he's not worth $5M/year let alone $14.

spiffie
10-12-2007, 12:12 PM
I agree completely. Rowand had a career year this past season, in a contract year no less. At least Torii has been consistent both offensively and defensively. Rowand is a nice player, but of the two, I'd rather have Torii.
Actually, Aaron put up pretty similar numbers in 2004.
2004: 310/361/544/905, 487 AB's, 24 HR, 17SB, 38 2B
2007: 309/374/515/889, 612 AB's, 27 HR, 6SB, 45 2B

I guess he has a career year every couple years so far.

thedudeabides
10-12-2007, 12:13 PM
Theres no way a Boras client takes a 2 year contract, I don't think at least, I dunno if it's been done before.

He's done these type of contracts with Ivan Rodriguez. With Andruw, it may be a possibility because his season was so under par last season, but remember it only takes one GM to bite.

Edit: He took a short term contract with Florida. This is not really a Bora$$ regular contract.

jabrch
10-12-2007, 12:20 PM
How much more would Hunter cost? I'd rather have TorIIIIII for 6 years $96M than Rowand for 6/$84

I'd rather have Owens for $300K and 14mm to go spend elsewhere.

jabrch
10-12-2007, 12:21 PM
Does that put Andruw Jones back in the picture?

Nope - his agent has already said that he is expecting a raise over what he made last year. And given how poorly he performed, he is still out of the picture.

Domeshot17
10-12-2007, 12:34 PM
I'd rather have Owens for $300K and 14mm to go spend elsewhere.


Not me, unless you upgrade 2b SS BIG TIME (like Luis Castillo and Arod big) (which wont happen because Arod is rep'd by Boras and we don't do anything Boras) I don't see how you can go into 2008 expecting to win with Owens in center leading off. Hes a subpar lead off hitter (better suited to hit 9 because he has no idea how to draw a walk) and not a great defensive CF. Hes also going into his late twenties, which means his ability to actually improve isn't going to be much (how many guys in the pros have breakout careers late in their 20s). Owens is a 1 tool ball player, speed. Maybe 2 if you think he will ever be consistent enough to hit over .280 with a .350 obp, but doubtful. He has no arm, no power, not a great defensive OF, doesn't walk, for a fast guy doesn't bunt all that well, he just is nothing more then a fourth of.

I would rather pay a CF 10-15 mil a year (depending who it is) then pump more money into over rated starting pitching (Contreras, Garland). While I agree pitching wins championships and Im not opposed to spending there, we foolishly locked up Jose to this deal and Garland I am still not sold on. I think hes a good 3rd or 4th starter, but when you make him a number 2, he can't pitch with most teams number 2. Putting 13 a year into your number 3 or 4 SP makes no sense to me unless you were talkin old school Braves days of Maddux Smoltz Glavine where any one of them could be a number 1.

Sockinchisox
10-12-2007, 12:51 PM
I'd rather have Owens for $300K and 14mm to go spend elsewhere.

Unless A-Rod opts out, there is nothing else on the FA market to spend 14 mil on.

Edit: Unless you trade for someone big.

infohawk
10-12-2007, 01:01 PM
At 5/50 I would resign him in a heartbeat. At 5/60 I would think carefully and consider it. At 6/96 I would laugh at him and tell him all the wall crashes have obviously caused some permanent damage.

I could see the Cubs signing him for 6/96. He'd get two million for each of the first two years, five million each of the next two and 41 million in each of the last two years of the contract. :tongue:

TDog
10-12-2007, 01:03 PM
I agree completely. Rowand had a career year this past season, in a contract year no less. At least Torii has been consistent both offensively and defensively. Rowand is a nice player, but of the two, I'd rather have Torii.

You don't know if someone has had a career year until his career is over and you look at his years. Most players perform more poorly after they sign big free agent contracts. (There are exceptions, such as Roger Clemens who looked to most baseall general managers as if his best years were behind him but proved them wrong.)

Of course, any free agent is going to be expensive, unless you're talking about someone like Erstad. Your only other alternative is to find a good, young center fielder via trade from a contending team that doesn't have room for him. (The Tampa Bays, for example, aren't going to deal someone who produces for little cost.)

Part of the Rowand obsession that I haven't seen brought up here is the believe that he would give the White Sox a discount. Not that I believe that would be the case.

I would prefer Rowand to Hunter, though. Hunter doesn't play as well against every team as well as he has against the White Sox over the years.

Lip Man 1
10-12-2007, 01:26 PM
These center fielder's and what they sign for will be good 'test cases,' to see if the market is going to 'correct' itself as some have stated (or hope for) in MLB.

We'll see.

Lip

It's Time
10-12-2007, 01:29 PM
:KW
:roflmao:

oeo
10-12-2007, 02:14 PM
I agree completely. Rowand had a career year this past season, in a contract year no less. At least Torii has been consistent both offensively and defensively. Rowand is a nice player, but of the two, I'd rather have Torii.

Give it up that Rowand just had a career year. He had a similar year in 2004, and this is the kind of year we expected from him in 2005...remember? So he now has had two 'career' years? How does that work? Not to mention, last year was injury plagued, so it's possible that 2005 was an off year. More than likely, he's somewhere in between his 2005 and 2007 numbers, though...which isn't bad at all.

OTOH, Torii just had one of the best years of his career, as well. It's very comparable to his 2002 season. And neither of those seasons were as good as Rowand's 2004 and 2007.

Geez people, get over yourselves. Rowand actually is a pretty damn solid player. It's not just 'Rowand love,' he's actually pretty good.

D. TODD
10-12-2007, 02:19 PM
That's exactly what he should ask for. Hell, it's time to get paid and he is coming of his most productive season. If he starts to falter everyone including fans will ****can him as soon as possible, so strike while the irons hot and shoot for as big a payday as you can get Aaron. With that said, I sure hope Kenny isn't the one footin' that bill for Rowand if he gets it.

It's Time
10-12-2007, 02:21 PM
Geez people, get over yourselves. Rowand actually is a pretty damn solid player. It's not just 'Rowand love,' he's actually pretty good.

Not at those dollars he's not. He's good, not great. I'd take him over Hunter, but as I said, not for what he is asking.

oeo
10-12-2007, 02:27 PM
Not at those dollars he's not. He's good, not great. I'd take him over Hunter, but as I said, not for what he is asking.

That wasn't the point of my post.

Besides, great gives you $18 million a year for an outfielder (Ichiro, Wells, Soriano)...I'd say good gives you $14 million. You guys want the Sox to spend money, yet you don't want them to spend money. Make up your minds, because with Torii's Gold Gloves and 'track record' (even though he may not be that much better than Rowand), he's going to make more than $14 million.

This is the market as it stands. It's going to take a lot of money to sign any free agent.

AJ Hellraiser
10-12-2007, 02:35 PM
My bet is the Sox still land him... this is his demand to the Phillies.... Now, they are done with him.... he hits the open market and signs with the Sox for less..something like 6/60 or 5/55....

I am 98% sure he'll be wearing a Sox uni next year... if you care to know how PM me...

jabrch
10-12-2007, 02:35 PM
Unless A-Rod opts out, there is nothing else on the FA market to spend 14 mil on.

Edit: Unless you trade for someone big.

There's no problem then finding other uses for the money. But there's no freaking way I'd give Hunter or Rowand that sort of money/years.

upperdeckusc
10-12-2007, 02:45 PM
i say the only way we offer roward 10mil+/yr is if we dump contreras/garlands contract. we cant have a player at every position making 10+ mil. sorry, i dont think aarow rowand is a 10mil/yr player. give him 5/40. he doesnt like it, tell him to enjoy making 20 mil more for a losing team where he knows nobody and wont be recognized (ie PIT, OAK, etc). if he really loves CHI and wants to be back, he'll understand that not asking for the bank can help us make the team better.....if he's such a "team first" kinda guy...

LongLiveFisk
10-12-2007, 02:47 PM
I am 98% sure he'll be wearing a Sox uni next year... if you care to know how PM me...

Not that I'd mind seeing Aaron back in a Sox uniform but I still don't see him getting that kind of money. He does play all out, but the next time he runs into a wall could be the end of his career.

PalehosePlanet
10-12-2007, 03:03 PM
Wow!! When Eric Byrnes signed a 3/30 in-season extension to stay with the D-Backs I thought okay....Rowand will probably want 4/40-ish. But the 6/84 figure is absolutely insane.

Hunter, BTW, is said to want 5/75 per the Minny newspapers.

I agree with the earlier poster in regards to Andruw Jones. If he's willing to take... say 3/50 I'd rather do that. He's still the best defensive CF I've ever seen.

Lefty34
10-12-2007, 03:04 PM
Don't worry KJ I was bound to find this thread sooner or later. So stats is the name of today's game, eh? Ok, then. I concede that Mackowiak, when he had is "best" season at the plate, netted a .365 OBP .404 SLG and .290 AVG; whereas Hunter, who, in his best statistical season, came through with .334 OBP .524 SLG and .289 AVG. However, Mackowiak got his stats with 255 AB's while Hunter turned in the above season with 561 AB's. And, if you are familiar with statistics, the more events or "chances" that occur in a given period of time (oh, let's say a baseball season), the more telling the stats are of the players ACTUAL ability.

Now, Hunter has a career .324 OBP (not that good, hell it's bad), but Mackowiak's career total in that category is .334: not that much of an improvement. However, Hunter also has a career .469 SLG and .271 AVG, with Mackowiak coming in at .409 and .262 respectively. Now I could argue White Sox outfielders all day, but the long and short of it is that Hunter is a supremely better outfielder than both Mack and Rowand, not because he dives a lot for balls, but because he doesn't HAVE TO dive for balls in the outfield because he can actually read the ball off the bat and make the proper adjustments. Rowand is not worth that mammoth contract because he is a great defensive player, rather, he is absolutely NOT worth it because of that fact. Boo Rowand's agent for being fooled like so many others.

thomas35forever
10-12-2007, 03:23 PM
No way. Absolutely not. If Hunter is asking for less, go talk to him. KW would never sign anyone for this long or for this money. Now, we know Rowand's time on the South Side really is done.

chisoxmike
10-12-2007, 03:25 PM
These center fielder's and what they sign for will be good 'test cases,' to see if the market is going to 'correct' itself as some have stated (or hope for) in MLB.

We'll see.

Lip

I highly doubt it will "correct" itself.

As you said Lip, we'll see.

What scares me is that there is even more mediocrity out there than last year.

kjhanson
10-12-2007, 03:26 PM
Don't worry KJ I was bound to find this thread sooner or later. So stats is the name of today's game, eh? Ok, then. I concede that Mackowiak, when he had is "best" season at the plate, netted a .365 OBP .404 SLG and .290 AVG; whereas Hunter, who, in his best statistical season, came through with .334 OBP .524 SLG and .289 AVG. However, Mackowiak got his stats with 255 AB's while Hunter turned in the above season with 561 AB's. And, if you are familiar with statistics, the more events or "chances" that occur in a given period of time (oh, let's say a baseball season), the more telling the stats are of the players ACTUAL ability.

Now, Hunter has a career .324 OBP (not that good, hell it's bad), but Mackowiak's career total in that category is .334: not that much of an improvement.

I would say that I know a bit about Statistics. Hell, I have a degree in Statistics from the 7th best stats school in nation. But I digress, I originally brought your name up because you called Mackowiak's .354 OBP some form of "terrible". I figured you would jump all over Hunter's less than stellar .324, but apparently I was wrong.

By the way, .334 is an improvement over .324. The difference is statistically significant when performing a chi-square test. (They have 7500 PAs combined, easily enough to detect a verifiable difference)

Furthermore, I'm not arguing that Rob Mackowiak is a better OF than Torii Hunter. That would be a ludicrous statement. Aaron Rowand better than Torii Hunter...? That would be a tossup, and a savings of $2 million a year is enough to sway me towards the former.

SBSoxFan
10-12-2007, 04:52 PM
I would say that I know a bit about Statistics. Hell, I have a degree in Statistics from the 7th best stats school in nation.

Is that statistically significant? :redneck

By the way, .334 is an improvement over .324. The difference is statistically significant when performing a chi-square test. (They have 7500 PAs combined, easily enough to detect a verifiable difference)

At what confidence interval?

voodoochile
10-12-2007, 05:26 PM
I would say that I know a bit about Statistics. Hell, I have a degree in Statistics from the 7th best stats school in nation. But I digress, I originally brought your name up because you called Mackowiak's .354 OBP some form of "terrible". I figured you would jump all over Hunter's less than stellar .324, but apparently I was wrong.

By the way, .334 is an improvement over .324. The difference is statistically significant when performing a chi-square test. (They have 7500 PAs combined, easily enough to detect a verifiable difference)

Furthermore, I'm not arguing that Rob Mackowiak is a better OF than Torii Hunter. That would be a ludicrous statement. Aaron Rowand better than Torii Hunter...? That would be a tossup, and a savings of $2 million a year is enough to sway me towards the former.

If all 7500 PA's were at the higher OBP, it would mean an extra 75 total times reaching base. Over a 12 year career that's 6.25 extra times per year or roughly 2 runs per season.

Call it significant if you want to, but somehow I don't think it really means that much...

oeo
10-12-2007, 05:35 PM
No way. Absolutely not. If Hunter is asking for less, go talk to him. KW would never sign anyone for this long or for this money. Now, we know Rowand's time on the South Side really is done.

You think Hunter will be asking for less than that?

:roflmao:

Brian26
10-12-2007, 07:57 PM
It's just a starting point, guys. Relax. I think we can bring him down to 6/75 .

:D:

CLR01
10-12-2007, 08:08 PM
I think we can bring him down to 6/75 .

:D:



I'd give him two of those deals. He is, after all, the difference between 72 wins and a world series ring. In fact, after I locked Erstad up with his billion dollar eternity contract I'd give Ro-Ro a 2 billion dollar deal.

Jjav829
10-12-2007, 08:15 PM
I want a 6-year, $84 million contract, too. Doesn't mean I really expect it to happen. I'm sure Rowand knows he isn't getting anything close to that, but hey, it's worth a shot. After the ridiculous contracts we saw handed out last season, you can't really fault any player for trying to get a huge deal.

When he signs, I think we'll see him more in the range of 4-5 years at $10-11 million annually. But you never know. This offseason's market could be just as bizarre as last offseason.

StillMissOzzie
10-12-2007, 11:11 PM
Hunter, BTW, is said to want 5/75 per the Minny newspapers.

I agree with the earlier poster in regards to Andruw Jones. If he's willing to take... say 3/50 I'd rather do that. He's still the best defensive CF I've ever seen.

How much more would Hunter cost? I'd rather have TorIIIIII for 6 years $96M than Rowand for 6/$84

Does that put Andruw Jones back in the picture? I would assume, given the very poor year he had last year, that a much shorter contract would be in order. Would you rather have Hunter at 6/$96, Rowand at 6/$84 or Jones at 2/$34? You take the risk that Jones will rebound, and, hopefully, in that time you can find a youngster, either internally or through trade, to replace Jones in a couple of years.

First off, nice career / salary drive year, there, Aaron
Second, there's no way I give either of these guys 6 years.
Third, if Rowand really were to get 6/$84M, then I think Hunter's price goes even higher. Not that I think Rowand will get it, but I think his agent is setting the bar awfully high.
Forth, I don't see Andruw with a "u" here either. He's another Bora$ guy, and reportedly he was gonna ask Atlanta for $20M/year. He was readily dismissed, and I don't think he'll get his asking price either.

If there's a market correction, I think all three of these guys will be getting a cold dose of reality. Should make for an interesting hot stove league.

SMO
:gulp:

Boondock Saint
10-12-2007, 11:29 PM
If there's a market correction, I think all three of these guys will be getting a cold dose of reality. Should make for an interesting hot stove league.


Alfonso Soriano and Barry Zito showed us how "corrected" the market is. Not saying it won't happen, but I doubt it's happening soon. Once these guys are 35 and broken down still making $15+mil per season, then MLB GM's will realize how absurd these long term, big money contracts are. At least I hope so. Because no market correction just means it'll only get more difficult for all teams to sign guys, as right now, there's always some GM somewhere willing to drastically overpay for talent.

KyWhiSoxFan
10-12-2007, 11:39 PM
If I'm going to give a centerfielder named Hunter a six-year contract worth tens of millions, it would be Hunter Pence. He has a a great future ahead of him.

The Hunter from Minnesota, on the other hand, is on the downslope of his career. He's not worth $12 million a year. And neither is Rowand.

HomeFish
10-13-2007, 12:32 AM
If Aaron Rowand is going for that much money, then I fear there is no big-name free agent that the Sox could now (or ever) afford.

Let's face the reality: we're a middle-class team, and we're never going to be competitive in the FA market. Combine this with our complete lack of a farm system, and it's dark, dark days ahead.

Boondock Saint
10-13-2007, 12:42 AM
If Aaron Rowand is going for that much money, then I fear there is no big-name free agent that the Sox could now (or ever) afford.

Let's face the reality: we're a middle-class team, and we're never going to be competitive in the FA market. Combine this with our complete lack of a farm system, and it's dark, dark days ahead.

That entire post may be the most absurd thing I've ever read. Of course we're not competetive in the FA market, if only we could have kept Konerko away from the Angels with a decent offer!

It's FAR better to be smart in the free agent market than it is to have a big wallet.

HomeFish
10-13-2007, 12:46 AM
That entire post may be the most absurd thing I've ever read. Of course we're not competetive in the FA market, if only we could have kept Konerko away from the Angels with a decent offer!

It's FAR better to be smart in the free agent market than it is to have a big wallet.


Sure, every once in a while you're going to get lucky in the small-time FA market with guys like Iguchi, Dye, and Pierzynski. But that's not always the case -- see Erstad, for instance.

Boondock Saint
10-13-2007, 12:48 AM
Sure, every once in a while you're going to get lucky in the small-time FA market with guys like Iguchi, Dye, and Pierzynski. But that's not always the case -- see Erstad, for instance.

So it's better to overpay for a bunch of "maybe" players and declining big-name veterans year after year???

And it's not like Erstad is stuck with us for a long term deal. The point is that while he didn't work out, we're not stuck paying for poor results down the road. If you flash your wallet in free agency, there's a good chance that you could be stuck with a bad decision for years to come.

HomeFish
10-13-2007, 12:50 AM
So it's better to overpay for a bunch of "maybe" players and declining big-name veterans year after year???

No. It's best to develop your own players and then use free agency to fill in a couple of holes. That's how the big-time franchises do it.

Boondock Saint
10-13-2007, 12:55 AM
No. It's best to develop your own players and then use free agency to fill in a couple of holes. That's how the big-time franchises do it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

If Aaron Rowand is going for that much money, then I fear there is no big-name free agent that the Sox could now (or ever) afford.

Let's face the reality: we're a middle-class team, and we're never going to be competitive in the FA market. Combine this with our complete lack of a farm system, and it's dark, dark days ahead.

So which of your proven methods do you recommend? First, you want us to spend big money, lest we be doomed to "dark dark days", then you say that we need to use free agency to "Fill a couple holes". You don't "Fill a couple holes" with twelve million dollar free agents.

Brian26
10-13-2007, 12:57 AM
Let's face the reality: we're a middle-class team, and we're never going to be competitive in the FA market. Combine this with our complete lack of a farm system, and it's dark, dark days ahead.

Another reality is that the Sox already signed two pretty big free agents this season, Buehrle and Dye. They gave the Sox hometown discounts, but they certainly aren't coming cheap. If a team can sign players back before they even become FA's, that seems pretty competitive to me.

HomeFish
10-13-2007, 12:58 AM
So which of your proven methods do you recommend? First, you want us to spend big money, lest we be doomed to "dark dark days", then you say that we need to use free agency to "Fill a couple holes". You don't "Fill a couple holes" with twelve million dollar free agents.

I was pointing out two different problems at the same time: first, we cannot sign big-money players, and second, we cannot develop players worth anything, at least not recently. I was saying that, in combination, this is a big problem.

Why is this relevant to this thread? Well, if Aaron Rowand is going for such a ridiculous amount of money, that means that free agents (which we are more dependent on due to our lack of a farm system) are more expensive than ever before.

StillMissOzzie
10-13-2007, 02:38 AM
If Aaron Rowand is going for that much money, then I fear there is no big-name free agent that the Sox could now (or ever) afford.

Let's face the reality: we're a middle-class team, and we're never going to be competitive in the FA market. Combine this with our complete lack of a farm system, and it's dark, dark days ahead.

That's right, the Sox will never be players in the FA market ever again.
This just proves once again that Bill Veeck was right...it's not the high price of superstars that will kill you. it's the high price of mediocrity.

Sheesh, don't you have a Cubs rally to ignite? Oh, wait a minute...

SMO
:rolleyes:

FarWestChicago
10-13-2007, 07:44 AM
Sheesh, don't you have a Cubs rally to ignite? Oh, wait a minute...

SMO
:rolleyes:
Hey, give the Fish some credit. His Twinks and Flubs are both out of it. He really has no team to hang his hat on at this point. But, he's still in here winding people up. The Fish can always find a chump. :redneck

Frater Perdurabo
10-13-2007, 08:11 AM
we cannot develop players worth anything, at least not recently.

I disagree.

Of course I'd like to see more home-grown players performing well on the Sox. But the fact of the matter is that other than shortstop and catcher, the Sox organization has produced nearly a complete "team" of solid players, including several All-Stars: Lee, Rowand, Maggs, Crede, Durham, Buehrle, Garland (I'm giving them credit for developing him); plus some decent, useful guys like Cameron, Fogg, Wells, Rauch, Bradford; and promising youngsters like Young, Fields and, McCarthy. I count 15 guys since 1995 (when Cameron and Durham made their debuts). That averages out to slightly more than one player per season. If a team can have one prospect develop into a good major leaguer every season, they are in pretty good shape.

voodoochile
10-13-2007, 10:02 AM
Hey, give the Fish some credit. His Twinks and Flubs are both out of it. He really has no team to hang his hat on at this point. But, he's still in here winding people up. The Fish can always find a chump. :redneck

This last batch has me laughing. It's like he's trying too hard. I remember when the HF used to drop graphs that would make people moan in anticipation of dark clouds ahead. I remember when the very sight of a fish post could make posters break out in cold sweats and stare blankly off into space. He's a shadow of his former self. These posts seem forced and just don't have the oomph he once exhibited so easily. It's sad when the dark clouds and trolls go soft. Where have you gone Fakester? All is forgiven and I'll gladly buy your book...

FarWestChicago
10-13-2007, 10:24 AM
This last batch has me laughing. It's like he's trying too hard. I remember when the HF used to drop graphs that would make people moan in anticipation of dark clouds ahead. I remember when the very sight of a fish post could make posters break out in cold sweats and stare blankly off into space. He's a shadow of his former self. These posts seem forced and just don't have the oomph he once exhibited so easily. It's sad when the dark clouds and trolls go soft. Where have you gone Fakester? All is forgiven and I'll gladly buy your book...Yeah, the Fish has really lost a step. I remember when th Fakester first lost a step. You end up missing the old, truly virulent troll. Now, if only CLR could lose a step in football trolling. :redneck

Tragg
10-13-2007, 11:30 AM
Rowand (and/or his agent) has lost his mind.

Hitmen77
10-13-2007, 01:54 PM
With Rowand, Hunter and A. Jones all on the market this year, I question whether there will be 3 teams out there that will pay such an insane amount for their services.

Remember, the usual culprits in obnoxious spending - Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs aren't in the market for a new CF. We know the Tigers have spent $$$ on contracts (Maggs, I-Roid), but they're all set at CF.

Actually, it would be interesting if someone could come up with a list of teams that will be in the market for a CF this year. That would give me a better idea of who the Sox will be competing against if they indeed are going to seriously pursue a free agent CF.

Brian26
10-13-2007, 03:17 PM
The latest Bruce Levine theory is that the Rowand camp is floating this preposterously high figure so that other teams won't even begin negotiating with him, making it all the easier for him to come back to the Sox for a hometown discount.

JermaineDye05
10-13-2007, 03:20 PM
The latest Bruce Levine theory is that the Rowand camp is floating this preposterously high figure so that other teams won't even begin negotiating with him, making it all the easier for him to come back to the Sox for a hometown discount.

that sounds possible, in a crazy sort of way. If it's true then Aaron really must love Chicago, I always knew he loved it hear but never thought that much.

rowand33
10-13-2007, 03:44 PM
The latest Bruce Levine theory is that the Rowand camp is floating this preposterously high figure so that other teams won't even begin negotiating with him, making it all the easier for him to come back to the Sox for a hometown discount.

I would love to trust Levine on this one.

I dunno though... I don't think that the Sox really have any use for a .289 career hitter, that plays solid defense, that's coming off the best year of his career to come in and fill a position that's been a glaring hole for the team since he left. No matter what the price.

Seriously... I read these posts and people are like "no rowand! no hunter! no jones! bring me hunter pence!" Are you ****ing kidding me?

Look at things realistically...

Somebody has to play CF for the White Sox next year. If we ride the Owens/Erstad roller coster again, we're going to be bad.

I'd like that somebody to be Rowand. To the people that rip him, do you realize that he didn't have a single month where he slumped this year? He's not playing over his head. This is his level.
And contrary to revisionist WSI party line history, he plays good defense. You were all nutting yourself over Rowand's D in 05. He leaves and he's terrible. GMAB.

I realize what my user name is, but if I felt there was a better option out there than Rowand, I'd want the sox to pursue that.

But our realistic options for CF next year are:
a) overpay for Rowand
b) overpay for Jones
c) overpay for Hunter
d) stick with Owens/Erstad

I choose a. Jones and Hunter will be much more expensive and won't play much better than rowand (if they play better than him at all). We still need to have the money to get somebody to leadoff and play SS for this team...

I really think Rowand is our best bet to allow us to field the best overall team, and if we can sign him for Gary Matthews money, I'll be very happy.

kjhanson
10-13-2007, 04:18 PM
If all 7500 PA's were at the higher OBP, it would mean an extra 75 total times reaching base. Over a 12 year career that's 6.25 extra times per year or roughly 2 runs per season.

Call it significant if you want to, but somehow I don't think it really means that much...

Look at it this way: That's one spot in the lineup scoring an extra 2 runs a year. That's a total of an extra 18 runs/year if it was up and down the lineup. I just ran a real quick model, and 18 runs =~ 1.75 wins in the American League this year. Gotta love those 3/4 of a win.

Anyways, that's assuming additional production up and down the lineup. The two extra runs by themselves equal .2 wins. Like you said, hardly significant in the grand scheme of things, but for a team that struggled to score as much as we did last year, I would prefer someone who could get on base to someone with a bit more power.

Tragg
10-13-2007, 04:59 PM
But our realistic options for CF next year are:
a) overpay for Rowand
b) overpay for Jones
c) overpay for Hunter
d) stick with Owens/Erstad

I choose a. Jones and Hunter will be much more expensive and won't play much better than rowand (if they play better than him at all). We still need to have the money to get somebody to leadoff and play SS for this team...

I really think Rowand is our best bet to allow us to field the best overall team, and if we can sign him for Gary Matthews money, I'll be very happy.
I certainly wouldn't do a-c if overpaying is part of the deal. We could even go with a cheaper free agent as a 1 year stopgap. Use the FA money we have to get players where there is a surplus. If we go in house, we certainly can do better than option d - at least the ogre can field his position (including throwing arm) with the best in baseball. WE could also get a trade. WE do have players to trade.

Frater Perdurabo
10-13-2007, 05:10 PM
And contrary to revisionist WSI party line history, he plays good defense. You were all nutting yourself over Rowand's D in 05. He leaves and he's terrible. GMAB.

Mike, I don't think anyone ever said Rowand played bad defense. What they did say was that Anderson was a better/more natural center fielder than Rowand, because BA did a better job anticipating the ball off the bat and put himself into good position early in the ball's flight, and therefore never/rarely had to "hustle" or dive to get to balls, and because of his ability to get back and track down deep flies, could play shallower and therefore catch more soft liners that normally would fall for singles. And even the staunchest Rowand doubters all agreed that Rowand has a TREMENDOUS work ethic.

I would be pleased if Rowand came back to the Sox at a reasonable price and hit .289 with 20 homers, 35 walks, 35 doubles and 25 steals. I'd be ecstatic if he had another 2004 or 2007, but I'd grumble if he put up another 2005 or 2006. I really don't care about the price; I just want to make sure the Sox have a bona fide leadoff hitter.

munchman33
10-13-2007, 05:20 PM
All this Aaron Rowand to the Sox talk is pretty ridiculous. Somebody has to lead off next year. Juan Uribe is coming back because Kenny pretty much said so. Joe Crede is playing third because Kenny won't give away a bulk of talent for nothing, and Crede has no real trade value until at least halfway through the season. Josh Fields is playing LF because he's shown that he should be out there everyday. And everything I've heard has said that the Sox are pretty high on Danny Richar playing second base.

Which means the ONLY position we can put a leadoff guy is CF. Aaron is not leading off. Kenny will look for a leadoff CF...and if not, Jerry Owens will be back in that spot and he'll look to improve in the pen or rotation. But Rowand isn't coming here. It isn't going to happen, because he doesn't fit what we need out of the position given our personel at other positions.

ilsox7
10-13-2007, 05:22 PM
All this Aaron Rowand to the Sox talk is pretty ridiculous. Somebody has to lead off next year. Juan Uribe is coming back because Kenny pretty much said so. J

While Uribe may be back, I certainly would not put any stock into what KW said about the situation.

Brian26
10-13-2007, 05:30 PM
All this Aaron Rowand to the Sox talk is pretty ridiculous. Somebody has to lead off next year. Juan Uribe is coming back because Kenny pretty much said so. Joe Crede is playing third because Kenny won't give away a bulk of talent for nothing, and Crede has no real trade value until at least halfway through the season. Josh Fields is playing LF because he's shown that he should be out there everyday. And everything I've heard has said that the Sox are pretty high on Danny Richar playing second base.

Which means the ONLY position we can put a leadoff guy is CF. Aaron is not leading off. Kenny will look for a leadoff CF...and if not, Jerry Owens will be back in that spot and he'll look to improve in the pen or rotation. But Rowand isn't coming here. It isn't going to happen, because he doesn't fit what we need out of the position given our personel at other positions.

Unless you start thinking out of the box. The possibility of Konerko being dealt is pretty intriguiing. He's my favorite player on the Sox, so I'm not necessarily a fan of him leaving. Business is business though. You saw what the Sox were able to get back for CLee and letting Magglio go after 2004. If the Angels offered Kendrick, Figgins and Shields for Konerko, I think KW would have to listen pretty intently. All of a sudden, the leftfield and leadoff spot would be solved, the second base situation would be solved, the bullpen would be partially fixed, and you move Fields over to firstbase (or DH and let Thome play first).

I love Konerko, but trading him now when his value is high is intriguiing.

Frater Perdurabo
10-13-2007, 05:55 PM
I love Konerko, but trading him now when his value is high is intriguiing.

:whistle:

Frater Perdurabo
10-13-2007, 06:05 PM
All this Aaron Rowand to the Sox talk is pretty ridiculous. Somebody has to lead off next year.

I was surprised to see that Rowand had a .374 OBP in 2007 and a .361 in 2004. Both of those would be #2 on the 2007 Sox, behind only Thome. I'm not saying that Rowand is the answer to lead off. But if he was asked to do so and put up a .360 OBP with 20 homers and 20 steals, I would be quite pleased.

rowand33
10-13-2007, 06:56 PM
Mike, I don't think anyone ever said Rowand played bad defense. What they did say was that Anderson was a better/more natural center fielder than Rowand, because BA did a better job anticipating the ball off the bat and put himself into good position early in the ball's flight, and therefore never/rarely had to "hustle" or dive to get to balls, and because of his ability to get back and track down deep flies, could play shallower and therefore catch more soft liners that normally would fall for singles. And even the staunchest Rowand doubters all agreed that Rowand has a TREMENDOUS work ethic.

I would be pleased if Rowand came back to the Sox at a reasonable price and hit .289 with 20 homers, 35 walks, 35 doubles and 25 steals. I'd be ecstatic if he had another 2004 or 2007, but I'd grumble if he put up another 2005 or 2006. I really don't care about the price; I just want to make sure the Sox have a bona fide leadoff hitter.

I've seen people say Rowand played bad D.

And I agree that Anderson is a better defender. Anderson plays one of the best defensive centerfields I've ever seen.

I won't be upset if we don't sign Rowand and use the money to bring in a bona fide leadoff guy to play either CF or SS.

Though I would be very content with a team where Eckstein played short and leadoff and Rowand batted second (amazing career numbers in the 2 hole. .346/.392/.517 in 402 ABs. it's where he should bat) and played CF.

This lineup:

Eckstein
Rowand
Thome
Konerko
Dye
Fields
Crede
AJ
Richar

with our current starters and an upgraded pen would contend for the Central.

Even if we had to trade Garland (do we think Gio's ready?) for said bullpen help. I still think it would be a good team.

At the end of the day, I'll be happy with our off season if we don't have any glaring holes on the team. I was extremely happy in the 04-05 offseason because I felt that we didn't have a hole in the lineup and the pitching was strong. If we get to that poitn for 2008, and we don't sign any big name free agents, I'll still be happy.

DickAllen72
10-13-2007, 07:46 PM
I've seen people say Rowand played bad D.

And I agree that Anderson is a better defender.
They both catch the routine fly balls. On the difficult ones, Anderson gets a better jump/read on the ball and makes the catch look easy. Rowand doesn't get as good of a read and winds up making a diving catch or crashes into the fence on the catch--but he still catches it.

Rowand is smarter in the field and knows how to back up the other outfielders and is respected by his fellow outfielders.

Offensively, there is no comparison between Anderson and Rowand. And Rowand fits in well in the clubhouse.

If the price isn't too outrageous, Aaron will look great in CF for the Sox for the next five years or so.

JermaineDye05
10-13-2007, 08:03 PM
While Uribe may be back, I certainly would not put any stock into what KW said about the situation.

I would have to conquer.

I remember Kenny saying in ST he wasn't going to negotiate any contracts during the season and that he'd wait until the offseason to do that. Well he extended Dye, Buehrle, Pierzynski, and Guillen before the season ended.

ilsox7
10-13-2007, 08:06 PM
I would have to conquer.

Who are you conquering?



:D:

Daver
10-13-2007, 08:35 PM
The real question is, when is Rowand going to play like a 14 mil a year player, because he never has up to now.

DumpJerry
10-13-2007, 11:22 PM
The real question is, when is Rowand going to play like a 14 mil a year player, because he never has up to now.
When he is paid $14,000,000 a year. That is what he's been waiting for and why he has been holding back all these years.

FedEx227
10-14-2007, 12:14 AM
The real question is, when is Rowand going to play like a 14 mil a year player, because he never has up to now.

Are you kidding?

His passion, fire, grinderness and dives more than make up the 14 million. Not to mention the career year in the best hitters ballpark in the league, while a part of the all-powerful National League.

Grzegorz
10-14-2007, 06:09 AM
I've seen people say Rowand played bad D.

And I agree that Anderson is a better defender. Anderson plays one of the best defensive centerfields I've ever seen.

I won't be upset if we don't sign Rowand and use the money to bring in a bona fide leadoff guy to play either CF or SS.

Though I would be very content with a team where Eckstein played short and leadoff and Rowand batted second (amazing career numbers in the 2 hole. .346/.392/.517 in 402 ABs. it's where he should bat) and played CF.

This lineup:

Eckstein
Rowand
Thome
Konerko
Dye
Fields
Crede
AJ
Richar

with our current starters and an upgraded pen would contend for the Central.

Even if we had to trade Garland (do we think Gio's ready?) for said bullpen help. I still think it would be a good team.

At the end of the day, I'll be happy with our off season if we don't have any glaring holes on the team. I was extremely happy in the 04-05 offseason because I felt that we didn't have a hole in the lineup and the pitching was strong. If we get to that poitn for 2008, and we don't sign any big name free agents, I'll still be happy.

You'll have a glaring hole in the rotation without Garland. Sure, one can plug a kid into the rotation but that is no guarantee that that kid will perform.

That lineup is slow and dare I say weak defensively. I'd hope that this team would get faster, aggressive, and tighter defensively. I do not want to hear another year of excuses about not having the personnel to play 'Ozzieball'.

If Rowand comes in fine but not at fourteen million per; that number is obscene...

Anyway you slice it this team needs to get younger, faster, and fundamentally sound.
Brian Anderson and Ryan Sweeney have to be able to help this team day-to-day. I'd also love to see the Chicago White Sox explore what it would take to get Bill Hall here to plug the hole at shortstop.

A. Cavatica
10-14-2007, 10:20 AM
$14 million doesn't buy what it used to, that's for sure.

spiffie
10-14-2007, 11:58 AM
Are you kidding?

His passion, fire, grinderness and dives more than make up the 14 million. Not to mention the career year in the best hitters ballpark in the league, while a part of the all-powerful National League.
So I assume 2004 was the career year in the best hitters ballpark in the AL while part of a down year for pitching in the AL?

Flight #24
10-14-2007, 12:09 PM
$14 million doesn't buy what it used to, that's for sure.

That's IMO the point. It's all about the market. And it's not like you can take that $14M and spend it on 2 "sure things". Because that'll get you what - an Adam Eaton? Maybe if you're lucky, Paul Byrd? That won't even get you a Jermaine Dye and anything else of significance.

At some point, you have to just accept that the market is a lot higher than it has been and pay the going rate. I don't believe there's going to be a significant correction coming - maybe a slowing of salary growth but not a decline.

FedEx227
10-14-2007, 12:20 PM
So I assume 2004 was the career year in the best hitters ballpark in the AL while part of a down year for pitching in the AL?

Um....

2004
.310/.336/.544, 24 HR, 69 RBI, 151 hits

Career Averages
.286/.343/.462, 18 HR, 66 RBI, 145 hits
2004 to Career Averages (+.024/-.007/+.082, +6 HR, +3 RBI, +6 hits)

2007
.309/.374/.515, 27 HR, 89 RBI, 189 hits
2007 to Career Averages (+.023/+.031/+.053, +9 HR, +23 RBI, +44 hits)

So basically, he beat his career averages in OBP, HR, RBI and hits. 2007 was a career year, 2004 was not.

He is not worth the amount of money he wants and any team willing to give him that is out of their mind.

fquaye149
10-14-2007, 12:20 PM
I want a 6-year, $84 million contract, too. Doesn't mean I really expect it to happen. I'm sure Rowand knows he isn't getting anything close to that, but hey, it's worth a shot. After the ridiculous contracts we saw handed out last season, you can't really fault any player for trying to get a huge deal.

When he signs, I think we'll see him more in the range of 4-5 years at $10-11 million annually. But you never know. This offseason's market could be just as bizarre as last offseason.

bingo. i doubt he thinks he's going to get 6/84. But that's probably what it's going to take Philly to keep him from testing the market.

Nothing wrong with this move on Rowand's part, but I would echo the sentiment of many posters that Rowand's not worth 14 mill/year for 6 years

spiffie
10-14-2007, 12:23 PM
Um....

2004
.310/.336/.544, 24 HR, 69 RBI, 151 hits

Career Averages
.286/.343/.462, 18 HR, 66 RBI, 145 hits
2004 to Career Averages (+.024/-.007/+.082, +6 HR, +3 RBI, +6 hits)

2007
.309/.374/.515, 27 HR, 89 RBI, 189 hits
2007 to Career Averages (+.023/+.031/+.053, +9 HR, +23 RBI, +44 hits)

So basically, he beat his career averages in OBP, HR, RBI and hits. 2007 was a career year, 2004 was not.

He is not worth the amount of money he wants and any team willing to give him that is out of their mind.
Regarding the counting stats, keep in mind he had something like 150 more AB's in 2007 than in 2004. In the rate stats he was just as much over his career OPS in 2004 as in 2007, just that he had a lower OBP but a higher SLG that year.

Lip Man 1
10-14-2007, 01:23 PM
Flight:

Excellent points in your last comment.

Lip

MISoxfan
10-14-2007, 04:49 PM
Um....

2004
.310/.336/.544, 24 HR, 69 RBI, 151 hits

Career Averages
.286/.343/.462, 18 HR, 66 RBI, 145 hits
2004 to Career Averages (+.024/-.007/+.082, +6 HR, +3 RBI, +6 hits)

2007
.309/.374/.515, 27 HR, 89 RBI, 189 hits
2007 to Career Averages (+.023/+.031/+.053, +9 HR, +23 RBI, +44 hits)

So basically, he beat his career averages in OBP, HR, RBI and hits. 2007 was a career year, 2004 was not.

He is not worth the amount of money he wants and any team willing to give him that is out of their mind.

He had far fewer plate appearances in 2004. He beat his career averages in OBP and possibly hits, but he was on pace for more rbi's and home runs in '04.

Doesn't career year also imply that it is something he will be unlikely to attain again? I'm sure before this season nobody thought he could repeat the '04 performance.

russ99
10-14-2007, 04:59 PM
This to me is Rowand doing the typical pre-free agency posturing.

Sort of like saying, "If the Phillies want to keep me and have me forgo my biggest free agent year of my career, this is what it's going to cost."

By no means will this be the going rate after the filing period is over.

Also, there are three CFs of fairly close talent, and neither of the three have gamebreaking talent anymore. (Maybe Andruw, but lots of questions on him after this season.) I can see the CF market this year as a luxury. No one really NEEDS one of these guys, they're not huge HR threats, big OPB guys or great basestealers.

Unless there are any desperate GMs who soil themselves and have to get one of them immediately, I can see all three waiting a while, and waiting means lower salary.

GMs aren't stupid. Maybe Andruw of last year is worth $15M/season, but none of these guys are right now. If the GMs are patient and let the market set itself (without collusion, of course :tongue:), I can see the market being $12-13 for the first to sign (should be Hunter) and closer to $10M for Rowand, especially if the Sox miss out on #1 target Hunter and sign Rowand at a slight discount.

Who knows what Jones will sign for with Boras working many teams against each other, as usual.

munchman33
10-14-2007, 05:48 PM
I was surprised to see that Rowand had a .374 OBP in 2007 and a .361 in 2004. Both of those would be #2 on the 2007 Sox, behind only Thome. I'm not saying that Rowand is the answer to lead off. But if he was asked to do so and put up a .360 OBP with 20 homers and 20 steals, I would be quite pleased.

I did not know that. Interesting...

Daver
10-14-2007, 06:15 PM
That's IMO the point. It's all about the market. And it's not like you can take that $14M and spend it on 2 "sure things". Because that'll get you what - an Adam Eaton? Maybe if you're lucky, Paul Byrd? That won't even get you a Jermaine Dye and anything else of significance.

At some point, you have to just accept that the market is a lot higher than it has been and pay the going rate. I don't believe there's going to be a significant correction coming - maybe a slowing of salary growth but not a decline.

I would think the Mitchell Report may have a huge affect on salary growth.

HomeFish
10-14-2007, 07:08 PM
Last night, I dreamt that Torii Hunter released a CD of Opera Music -- except he changed all the lyrics to be about how great of a baseball player he is. Torii also had a large beard in this dream, which was mildly frightening.

Clearly, this was the result of reading WSI late at night before going to bed.

Lefty34
10-15-2007, 12:34 PM
I also think that putting up career numbers in an extremely hitter-friendly park against weakened pitching in the NL is definitely worth the amount of money Rowand is asking for. And if you might think otherwise, then just look at his neck (or lack thereof). Seriously, how much does Rowand put up on the rack when he does shrugs? That's gotta be worth 14 mil a year, easy. Plus, we get the extra-added benefit of watching him hustle and dive all over the field because he can't read the ball off the bat or anticipate what the hitter is going to do....Go for it, Kenny.

soxfan13
10-15-2007, 12:48 PM
My bet is the Sox still land him... this is his demand to the Phillies.... Now, they are done with him.... he hits the open market and signs with the Sox for less..something like 6/60 or 5/55....

I am 98% sure he'll be wearing a Sox uni next year... if you care to know how PM me...

Let me guess .......you know his wife!:tongue:

Soxfest
10-15-2007, 05:32 PM
AR can stay away!

gobears1987
10-15-2007, 08:34 PM
There's no way the Sox pay that much to either, but that doesn't mean somebody else won't.
Yeah the Flubs are dumb enough to dump that much money.