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It's Time
10-02-2007, 12:38 PM
Kenny Williams said that he is not going to be a busy as many expect him to be. This was in the Sun-Times today. I found this comment odd. Of course, he simply might not be showing his hand at what he may be doing.


:?:

itsnotrequired
10-02-2007, 12:40 PM
Kenny Williams said that he is not going to be a busy as many expect him to be. This was in the Sun-Times today. I found this comment odd. Of course, he simply might not be showing his hand at what he may be doing.


:?:

Bingo. Pretty much every comment made by a GM regarding team direction, potential trades, callups, draft picks, etc. should be taken with a grain of salt.

KW knows where the holes lie and will be in the usual KW mode trying to correct them.

It's Time
10-02-2007, 12:41 PM
Here is the link.


http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/583279,CST-SPT-sox02.article

It's Time
10-02-2007, 12:50 PM
The signing of Uribe is not a good thing. Actually, this is a very bad thing.:o:

HerzogVon
10-02-2007, 01:02 PM
A similar story appeared in the Trib over the weekend. To be blunt, I don't believe anything Kenny says anymore. He's blown so much smoke out his butt the last two years that he should be cited for violating emissions standards!

The one exception is when he says something I don't like. This, I do not like; so of course, it's probably true.

itsnotrequired
10-02-2007, 01:08 PM
A similar story appeared in the Trib over the weekend. To be blunt, I don't believe anything Kenny says anymore. He's blown so much smoke out his butt the last two years that he should be cited for violating emissions standards!

The one exception is when he says something I don't like. This, I do not like; so of course, it's probably true.

What do you expect him to do, let everyone know his plans and ideas? Remember in the 2005 offseason when he said either Garland or Contreras would be extended but not both? He sure pulled the wool over our eyes, that bastard!

Lip Man 1
10-02-2007, 01:15 PM
I don't any think major league baseball executive doesn't think the Sox will be dealing this off season so if this is a 'smoke screen,' I don't think it's going to work very well.

When you lose 90 games things haven't gone well.

Changes are needed.

I hope they will be made because if not, if Kenny thinks that bringing back the bulk of a team that finished in 4th place, is generally a year older and had serious gaping holes in some areas is going to result in a much better finish...then I think he is taking a serious risk and will be putting his own position at stake with the majority of the fan base. (and maybe even in the organization)

Lip

TDog
10-02-2007, 01:44 PM
The White Sox will hold an organizational meeting where specific goals are established. The team will target specific players they want to acquire through trade and free agency. The Sox will have a plan. It will be ambitious. It always is. It is impossible to make that plan now because players have not yet filed for free agency. You don't yet know who is available for trade.

Last year the Indians finished in fourth place, although they didn't lose 90 games. I don't know that at their organizational meetings club personnel were certain that moving a bad reliever to the starting rotation would be one of the keys to being the only team in the AL Central with more than 90 wins, but they knew what they were doing when they made Fausto Carmona a starter. A year ago, fans wouldn't have been excited about the prospect.

When a general manager says something in the first week of October, it's not a reason to be upset. It's more like we need a cop to tell people to move along. Nothing to see here.

kittle42
10-02-2007, 01:45 PM
I don't any think major league baseball executive doesn't think the Sox will be dealing this off season so if this is a 'smoke screen,' I don't think it's going to work very well.

When you lose 90 games things haven't gone well.

Changes are needed.

I hope they will be made because if not, if Kenny thinks that bringing back the bulk of a team that finished in 4th place, is generally a year older and had serious gaping holes in some areas is going to result in a much better finish...then I think he is taking a serious risk and will be putting his own position at stake with the majority of the fan base. (and maybe even in the organization)

Lip

Gotta agree. He also said in a story yesterday that they weren't going to change their philosophy on bullpen guys. Wonderful.

Everyone can fall back to their "flying under the radar" hopes with KW, but after the last two seasons, I'll wait til I see it to believe it.

WhiteSox5187
10-02-2007, 02:18 PM
I don't any think major league baseball executive doesn't think the Sox will be dealing this off season so if this is a 'smoke screen,' I don't think it's going to work very well.

When you lose 90 games things haven't gone well.

Changes are needed.

I hope they will be made because if not, if Kenny thinks that bringing back the bulk of a team that finished in 4th place, is generally a year older and had serious gaping holes in some areas is going to result in a much better finish...then I think he is taking a serious risk and will be putting his own position at stake with the majority of the fan base. (and maybe even in the organization)

Lip
Kenny may very well risk his reputation with the fan base if he does that next year, but I don't think JR is EVER going to fire him. JR is loyal to a fault.

thomas35forever
10-02-2007, 02:42 PM
Kenny better do something this offseason that makes us a contender again. Otherwise, I might be second-guessing him.

Nellie_Fox
10-02-2007, 02:44 PM
Kenny better do something this offseason that makes us a contender again. Otherwise, I might be second-guessing him.Oh no, not that!:cower:

Lip Man 1
10-02-2007, 03:01 PM
White Sox:

I agree with 99% of your post. It would take some extreme circumstances to get JR to pull the trigger on something like this. But there's nothing in the rules that say Kenny wouldn't be 'encouraged' to leave a la Jeff Torborg...especially if a string of bad seasons causes the fan base to leave and they go back to drawing 18 thousand per game.

In fact in his press conference Saturday Kenny himself said he 'hoped' the fan base wouldn't do this so already the possibility of this happening has come up among the Sox front office types.

Lip

asindc
10-02-2007, 03:06 PM
Gotta agree. He also said in a story yesterday that they weren't going to change their philosophy on bullpen guys. Wonderful.

Everyone can fall back to their "flying under the radar" hopes with KW, but after the last two seasons, I'll wait til I see it to believe it.

That "bullpen philosophy" led to a 2005 World Series title. Did I miss something, or did someone else named Kenny Williams who looks just like the Sox GM take his place? I'm all for criticism when warranted, but when you start questioning the philosophy of the GM and Manager I have to wonder why. It's not like he's doing anything different than he did in the fall of 2004.

asindc
10-02-2007, 03:08 PM
Oh no, not that!:cower:

Hey, KW doesn't want to feel his wrath!:o:

spiffie
10-02-2007, 03:12 PM
That "bullpen philosophy" led to a 2005 World Series title. Did I miss something, or did someone else named Kenny Williams who looks just like the Sox GM take his place? I'm all for criticism when warranted, but when you start questioning the philosophy of the GM and Manager I have to wonder why. It's not like he's doing anything different than he did in the fall of 2004.
Actually the bullpen philosophy did change. In 2005 Kenny brought in 3 veteran arms to supplant what already was an experienced pen (at that time the pen was Takatsu, Cotts, Marte). This year, and seemingly next year, he brought in lots of young castoffs with huge arms and no control. Maybe someone else did take Kenny's place, as that could explain the switch in philosophy.

kittle42
10-02-2007, 03:30 PM
That "bullpen philosophy" led to a 2005 World Series title. Did I miss something, or did someone else named Kenny Williams who looks just like the Sox GM take his place? I'm all for criticism when warranted, but when you start questioning the philosophy of the GM and Manager I have to wonder why. It's not like he's doing anything different than he did in the fall of 2004.

Exactly, and I think very few could argue that KW prior to the 2005 season and every other year (except maybe 2006) rolled the dice. He came up a winner in 2005, and has failed, sometimes very badly, every other time.

I'm tired of the crapshoots.

palehozenychicty
10-02-2007, 03:48 PM
Exactly, and I think very few could argue that KW prior to the 2005 season and every other year (except maybe 2006) rolled the dice. He came up a winner in 2005, and has failed, sometimes very badly, every other time.

I'm tired of the crapshoots.

That's going to happen when an organization never commits to developing their own talent or has the revenue streams/desire to pay for free agents. Therefore, we hope that it works, and if it doesn't, you try, try again.

SBSoxFan
10-02-2007, 04:01 PM
Actually the bullpen philosophy did change. In 2005 Kenny brought in 3 veteran arms to supplant what already was an experienced pen (at that time the pen was Takatsu, Cotts, Marte). This year, and seemingly next year, he brought in lots of young castoffs with huge arms and no control. Maybe someone else did take Kenny's place, as that could explain the switch in philosophy.

It changed, but it changed as a reaction to the bullpen's performance in 2006.

SBSoxFan
10-02-2007, 04:05 PM
Exactly, and I think very few could argue that KW prior to the 2005 season and every other year (except maybe 2006) rolled the dice. He came up a winner in 2005, and has failed, sometimes very badly, every other time.

I'm tired of the crapshoots.

Loazia was a crap shoot in 2003, and won 21 games. Others looked solid on paper and were busts, e.g., David Wells and the guy from Pitt whose name escapes me. By your own admission, 2006 wasn't a crapshoot, and the Sox were, according to some, a disappointment that year. So, what, exactly, would you like him to do?

Lip Man 1
10-02-2007, 04:56 PM
The Pittsbugh pitcher the Sox got was Todd Ritchie.

Lip

oeo
10-02-2007, 05:30 PM
I don't any think major league baseball executive doesn't think the Sox will be dealing this off season so if this is a 'smoke screen,' I don't think it's going to work very well.

:?:

Going into the offseason saying, we need this and that, that and this will make him sound desperate. You don't want that...make it sound like you're not going to make a lot of changes so you have at least some leverage.

asindc
10-02-2007, 05:37 PM
:?:

Going into the offseason saying, we need this and that, that and this will make him sound desperate. You don't want that...make it sound like you're not going to make a lot of changes so you have at least some leverage.

Exactly. I don't why some fans expect a team to announce its entire offseason strategy to the world.:rolleyes:

kittle42
10-02-2007, 05:53 PM
Loazia was a crap shoot in 2003, and won 21 games. Others looked solid on paper and were busts, e.g., David Wells and the guy from Pitt whose name escapes me. By your own admission, 2006 wasn't a crapshoot, and the Sox were, according to some, a disappointment that year. So, what, exactly, would you like him to do?

Obviously, any strategy is only successful based on the choices involved. Overall, I feel that the 2006 strategy is generally a more successful one. Williams couldn't have known his best pitcher would have the worst year of his career, or that both his bullpen studs from the previous yeras would be as equally bad in 2006 as they were good in 2005. So the disappointing nature of the year had more to do with the players themselves than the choices made. he went back into crapshoot mode in 2007 and rolled snake eyes.

Lip Man 1
10-02-2007, 07:45 PM
Oeo:

And you think that by Kenny saying 'we're not going to be that busy' is going to change any thoughts by any other MLB executives?

I didn't think so.

Regardless of what Kenny says his actions will speak for themselves and I think he's going to be busy.

Frankly he has no choice if he wants to retain the current size of his fan base.

Lip

oeo
10-02-2007, 08:02 PM
Oeo:

And you think that by Kenny saying 'we're not going to be that busy' is going to change any thoughts by any other MLB executives?

Yes, I do. He has two choices, IMHO. He can do what you and I, and everyone else want him to do (go ahead and make some moves to make us a championship contender next year), or he still has that choice to build for the future. You don't give the whole league your plan, that would be completely stupid because then they know what you want.

Regardless of what Kenny says his actions will speak for themselves and I think he's going to be busy.

Frankly he has no choice if he wants to retain the current size of his fan base.I like what you have to say most of the time LIp, and I respect your opinions. At the same time, nearly everything you write has that same objective of the media. It's always 'us vs. them' with you, when in reality the organization wants the same things we do.

And no offense, but you really have no idea what will kill our current fan base and what will not. No one does. Sure, in the past, the organization made some terrible decisions that killed parts of the fanbase, but we've never seen the team win a championship. If you ask me, so far, everyone is so incredibly wrong that our fanbase will fall apart in the very near future. Down to the end, we still had a ton of support even through our worst season in nearly 20 years, and I continue to see 'Sox Pride' here in West Lafayette more than 'Cubs Pride.'

It's Time
10-02-2007, 08:15 PM
Kenny just seems "different" now. He SEEMS to have lost his sharpness this year. I can't quite put my finger as to why I feel that way, I just do.

The Iguchi trade probably was one reason, based on the bag of balls the Sox got in return. His love affair with Uribe is another reason. The WS honeymoon is over.

He needs to seriously step up this winter.

ilsox7
10-02-2007, 08:20 PM
Kenny just seems "different" now. He SEEMS to have lost his sharpness this year. I can't quite put my finger as to why I feel that way, I just do.

The Iguchi trade probably was one reason, based on the bag of balls the Sox got in return. His love affair with Uribe is another reason. The WS honeymoon is over.

He needs to seriously step up this winter.


Your credibility takes a big hit by saying what is in bold.

oeo
10-02-2007, 08:34 PM
The Iguchi trade probably was one reason, based on the bag of balls the Sox got in return. His love affair with Uribe is another reason. The WS honeymoon is over.

An average second baseman for half of a season...what would you give up for that? Would you give up a Ryan Sweeney or Gio Gonzalez? No, and neither would the Phillies or any other team (maybe the Cubs, though).

It's Time
10-02-2007, 08:38 PM
Your credibility takes a big hit by saying what is in bold.

Really??

A low A minor leaguer when the Sox could have gotten a type B draft pick by hanging on to him.

ilsox7
10-02-2007, 08:40 PM
Really??

A low A minor leaguer when the Sox could have gotten a type B draft pick by hanging on to him.


Except the Sox could not have gotten any draft pick.

It's Time
10-02-2007, 08:43 PM
Except the Sox could not have gotten any draft pick.

Ok, so like I said, they got a bag of balls for him. A low ABALL stiff pitcher for Guch?. LOL!

ilsox7
10-02-2007, 08:46 PM
Ok, so like I said, they got a bag of balls for him. A low ABALL stiff pitcher for Guch?. LOL!

Tad was a mediocre 2nd baseman this year. The Phillies got him for less than half of the season. His contract is up after this year. There was absolutely no market for him. All of this was further confirmed when the Twins traded their 2nd baseman, who was better than Tad AND arbitration eligible, for very little.

JB98
10-02-2007, 08:46 PM
Ok, so like I said, they got a bag of balls for him. A low ABALL stiff pitcher for Guch?. LOL!

The trade deadline is a buyers' market. If you've followed the developments over the last few years, the days of getting three prospects for a rent-a-player are over.

It's Time
10-02-2007, 08:54 PM
Tad was a mediocre 2nd baseman this year. The Phillies got him for less than half of the season. His contract is up after this year. There was absolutely no market for him. All of this was further confirmed when the Twins traded their 2nd baseman, who was better than Tad AND arbitration eligible, for very little.

Kenny has dropped the ball plenty this past year. As I said, this is only one of the reasons I feel the way I do.

He has some proving to do.

ilsox7
10-02-2007, 08:55 PM
Kenny has dropped the ball plenty this past year. As I said, this is only one of the reasons I feel the way I do.

He has some proving to do.

That's all fine and dandy. But it has nothing to do with one of your assertions that the Tad trade was a bad move by KW. That's the only thing I am talking about here.

Daver
10-02-2007, 08:56 PM
Kenny has dropped the ball plenty this past year. As I said, this is only one of the reasons I feel the way I do.

He has some proving to do.

He proved it in 2005.

It's Time
10-02-2007, 08:58 PM
He proved it in 2005.

That's nice and all. But I am now looking forward to the future, you know, ones without 90 losses?

FarWestChicago
10-02-2007, 09:14 PM
That's nice and all. But I am now looking forward to the future, you know, ones without 90 losses?Somebody needs to give this guy a hug!

Jjav829
10-02-2007, 09:22 PM
Somebody needs to give this guy a hug!

No hug lines though or we're banning hugs at WSI. :tsk:

spiffie
10-02-2007, 09:30 PM
I don't know what he will do, or if I will like it, or anyone else will like it. I do know one thing though. I have no doubt that as pissed off as this year made us, it made him just as angry. I can't imagine anyone sitting around as a Royals fan or a Pirates fan is looking at their GM and thinking "this year must have killed him to watch." I don't envy the task facing KW this offseason. He has a big, old, slow team with a lot of holes and no real financial flexibility. But I know that even if it fails that he will do his damndest to improve the team for next year.

JB98
10-02-2007, 09:35 PM
No hug lines though or we're banning hugs at WSI. :tsk:

:hug:

Daver
10-02-2007, 09:38 PM
He has a big, old, slow team with a lot of holes and no real financial flexibility. But I know that even if it fails that he will do his damndest to improve the team for next year.

Are you privy to the meetings where the Board of Directors discuss payroll?

palehozenychicty
10-02-2007, 09:41 PM
I don't know what he will do, or if I will like it, or anyone else will like it. I do know one thing though. I have no doubt that as pissed off as this year made us, it made him just as angry. I can't imagine anyone sitting around as a Royals fan or a Pirates fan is looking at their GM and thinking "this year must have killed him to watch." I don't envy the task facing KW this offseason. He has a big, old, slow team with a lot of holes and no real financial flexibility. But I know that even if it fails that he will do his damndest to improve the team for next year.

This is why I will be stunned if the Sox pick up the extra 25 games to win the division without a lot of bold trades next season. They need to let all these guys go and replenish with more athletic players. In today's baseball climate, a group of thirtysomething players is the new 50.

Lip Man 1
10-02-2007, 09:42 PM
OEO:

You bring up some thought provoking points. After some consideration here's how I 'justify' my comments.

1. History (I grant you it's history before 2005 since not enough time has passed since then to draw real conclusions.) The White Sox historically has a fan base that won't suffer fools gladly. They expect to win, to a certain extent they have demanded it (not enough in my opinion). They simply will not spend hard earned money watching a loser.

2. You might say, 'well they supported a loser this year.' Correct but only partially true. At least in part the majority of those tickets were sold this past off season BEFORE any of the moves by and large were made. That's the way the system works...teams try to maximize potential sales by getting folks to buy as soon as possible after the previous season ends. And in fact attrition has already started. Attendence was down by about 300,000 from 06 to 07. I hope the bandwagon fans stick around, unlike some others I don't hate them. They mean the difference between 2 and 3 million for a season. That translates in theory, to a lot more resources and options.

3. As stated previously Kenny Williams at his press conference Saturday brought up this issue himself. To the best of my knowledge he wasn't 'prompted' on this by a reporter asking a question. He did it on his own. That means someone, somewhere, somehow must have brought this issue up in the front office or Kenny thought along these lines himself. The point being it's already a potential issue or it would have never been talked about in the first place.

4. Because of recent (past 25 years) events both out of the control of the White Sox as well as some they could control / change but did not, they simply don't have the raw number of fans as the Cubs do. The can't afford to lose fans because they don't have as many to draw on. Like it or not Kenny is in a position where he can't openly use the word 'rebuilding' justified or not because now ESPECIALLY after 2005 a large portion of the fan base will simply stop actively going out to the games (they will probably still watch / listen to them however.)

We'll know a lot more after the 2008 season about fan support...especially if God forbid they have another awful season. If that were to happen I feel ticket sales would be down dramatically in the off season leading to 2009.

Let's hope we don't have to find out if this is true or not.

And perhaps I didn't make myself clear earlier, I apologize for that. Kenny can make all the smoke screen statements, one way or another he wants but other MLB executives KNOW the Sox need help and know they need it badly in certain areas. They aren't stupid..they know the score. The price of poker for the Sox will be way up say for relief pitchers regardless of what Kenny says about their off season plans.

By the way for whatever it may be worth a story this weekend in the newspaper speculated (based on what I know not) that the Sox payroll will go UP in 2008.

Lip

Grzegorz
10-02-2007, 09:45 PM
And no offense, but you really have no idea what will kill our current fan base and what will not. No one does.

I know what depletes a fan base. Losing depletes a fan base. I'd strongly suggest not making a habit of it.

JB98
10-02-2007, 09:46 PM
This is why I will be stunned if the Sox pick up the extra 25 games to win the division without a lot of bold trades next season. They need to let all these guys go and replenish with more athletic players. In today's baseball climate, a group of thirtysomething players is the new 50.

We don't have that many guys in their 30s. Sure, Thome and Contreras are in the twilight of their careers. Dye will be 33 next Opening Day, Konerko 31 and AJ 30. That's about it.

If we had five or six core guys age 35 and over, I'd be more concerned. I don't think guys who are in their early 30s are anywhere near washed up.

jabrch
10-02-2007, 09:46 PM
Kenny has never tipped his hand either way - and we usually are never able to guess what he is going to do. Nobody guessed Thome. I think one person guessed Javy. While we know what he might be trading away, I don't think anyone knows what he may end up getting - and he surely isn't going to tell the media in October.

asindc
10-02-2007, 10:00 PM
Kenny has never tipped his hand either way - and we usually are never able to guess what he is going to do. Nobody guessed Thome. I think one person guessed Javy. While we know what he might be trading away, I don't think anyone knows what he may end up getting - and he surely isn't going to tell the media in October.

Nor should he. For all those who think Kenny has slipped, did you predict that his moves before this season would result in 90 losses? If not, then what do you base your opinion on other than hindsight? Like I said before, if you are criticizing something he has done before you see the results, fine. But if you are criticizing KW for what you think he might do, well, I don't know what you are expecting.

spiffie
10-02-2007, 10:02 PM
Are you privy to the meetings where the Board of Directors discuss payroll?
Nope. And if the Board of Directors ups the payroll to $150 million well gosh I guess I'll just be all wrong in my assessment. I mean, after all, this year could be the year that they all go crazy and decide to spend tons of cash. Or they could follow the trend they've followed pretty much every year since they've moved into the new park of keeping payroll not too drastically far off the last year's payroll one way or the other.

kobo
10-02-2007, 10:04 PM
:?:

Going into the offseason saying, we need this and that, that and this will make him sound desperate. You don't want that...make it sound like you're not going to make a lot of changes so you have at least some leverage.
The thing is though, any GM with a brain knows where the Sox need help right now. If the Sox resign some players before FA begins, this is going to give GM's somewhat of an idea of what KW might try to do. He can say or not say whatever he wants; it doesn't mean that GM's have no idea what needs this team has right now.

Grzegorz
10-02-2007, 10:04 PM
Nope. And if the Board of Directors ups the payroll to $150 million well gosh I guess I'll just be all wrong in my assessment. I mean, after all, this year could be the year that they all go crazy and decide to spend tons of cash.

There is no perfect correlation between spending money and winning. One only has to look at the north side athletic & social club to see that point clearly illustrated.

spiffie
10-02-2007, 10:38 PM
There is no perfect correlation between spending money and winning. One only has to look at the north side athletic & social club to see that point clearly illustrated.
That wasn't the point. The point is that it will most likely be very hard to make many significant changes due to most of the likely payroll already being committed. Now, not being on the Board of Directors, it is possible that they might make some sort of significant alteration from their typical modus operandi, and decide to try and buy a shot at a title (kind of like the north side team in question, which is only 11 wins from a World Series title has done), but as that is not likely, I feel relatively safe in the guess that if they wish to add any significant contracts they will have to find a way to shed some of that payroll one way or another.

SpartanSoxFan
10-02-2007, 10:48 PM
If he is telling the truth, he WILL soon be busy updating his resume.

kitekrazy
10-02-2007, 11:43 PM
Are you privy to the meetings where the Board of Directors discuss payroll?

I like that comment. Some people think there's a salary cap in baseball when it comes to the Sox.

jabrch
10-03-2007, 12:16 AM
There is no perfect correlation between spending money and winning. One only has to look at the north side athletic & social club to see that point clearly illustrated.

I don't get it. They spent the money this offseason and are in the post season largely because of the guys they spent the money on during this offseason.. (Ramirez, Soriano, Marquis, Lilly)

JB98
10-03-2007, 02:21 AM
I don't get it. They spent the money this offseason and are in the post season largely because of the guys they spent the money on during this offseason.. (Ramirez, Soriano, Marquis, Lilly)

The other poster said there was no "perfect correlation" between spending money and winning, and I agree. The Cubs spent $300 million or whatever to put together their 85-win juggernaut, and it allowed them to win a weak division. There have been several other campaigns in recent years where the Cubs spent a good amount of money, only to fall flat on their faces.

The New York Yankees have basically bought 14 consecutive playoff appearances. The Baltimore Orioles, meanwhile, have spent millions year after year on fourth-place teams. Hell, the 2007 White Sox were a high-priced, fourth-place team.

Spending money does increase your odds of success, but I agree with the previous poster's statement that there isn't a "perfect" correlation. It's how you spend money that matters most.

Domeshot17
10-03-2007, 02:56 AM
Nor should he. For all those who think Kenny has slipped, did you predict that his moves before this season would result in 90 losses? If not, then what do you base your opinion on other than hindsight? Like I said before, if you are criticizing something he has done before you see the results, fine. But if you are criticizing KW for what you think he might do, well, I don't know what you are expecting.

I know plenty of us from before opening day were fuming about going into the season with a bullpen without a proven middle reliever. I don't think you can count Thornton and Mac as proven because neither has done it consistently.


Kenny is a gambler. He would rather catch lightning in a bottle then make a big splash. Whats the last BIG free agent he signed, Dye? Dye was not even considered in the top 10 when he picked him up. But for every Dye there is an Erstad, and for every Javier Vazquez there is a David Wells.

I don't know what people are really expecting with Kenny. He doesn't do deals with Scott Boras which takes him out of a lot of good free agents, we just never are players in free agency. We don't have much to trade outside of Garland, so I expect next year to be a lot like this, gambling on vets coming off injuries, gambling on pitchers who throw over 95 mph but have no clue where its going when they let it go, and gambling on our injury prone guys to stay healthy.

The real problem is Ozzie loves Owens more then maybe anyone on our team, so odds are hes our starting CF and lead off. Kenny loves Uribe so hes probably our short stop. Its too early to give up on Richar, so it just doesn't look like we will do much. I hope we go after Hunter, but I have the feeling the only offensive improvements we will see is a new utility guy to replace Gonzalez (which Im sure we could ask John Goodman to come play for us and he could hit as good as Gonzalez).

I think expecting a quick turnaround is being too optimistic. We have nothing coming up from the minors with the exception of maybe 2 sp (Gio and Broadway). We will get our fill of the Anderson again until he hits his way back to triple A, We will get our fill of Sweeney again until he fails to show any power.

This team is much more of a mess then people realize. Its sad in a way. We have a great 1-3 SP, a great heart of our lineup, a top 5 closer, but after those guys our team is a mess.

A. Cavatica
10-03-2007, 08:57 AM
This team is much more of a mess then people realize. Its sad in a way. We have a great 1-3 SP, a great heart of our lineup, a top 5 closer, but after those guys our team is a mess.

I think the fans realize it's a mess. Look at the final standings! They aren't a mirage: our poor hitters didn't hit well, our poor pitchers didn't pitch well, our injury-prone players got injured, our manager didn't manage well, and our GM didn't make any moves that helped.

On the other hand, I don't think the organization has come to grips with reality. Renewing the manager, talking about renewing all the coaches except the least culpable (Shines), talking about bringing back Uribe and MacDougal, counting on the likes of Floyd to play well when it counts -- these are not encouraging signs.

kittle42
10-03-2007, 10:10 AM
On the other hand, I don't think the organization has come to grips with reality. Renewing the manager, talking about renewing all the coaches except the least culpable (Shines), talking about bringing back Uribe and MacDougal, counting on the likes of Floyd to play well when it counts -- these are not encouraging signs.

Don't you know, "we're not that far away?" :D:

eriqjaffe
10-03-2007, 10:13 AM
Don't you know, "we're not that far away?" :D:Yeah, we're only 2 years away from a World Series title!

asindc
10-03-2007, 11:04 AM
I know plenty of us from before opening day were fuming about going into the season with a bullpen without a proven middle reliever. I don't think you can count Thornton and Mac as proven because neither has done it consistently.

And I have no problem with that kind of criticism. Many people, including me, saw the middle relief corps as a potential trouble spot for the Sox heading into this past season. Unfortunately, we were right. What I don't know here is the KW "gambled" like you say he did. What that suggests is that he had the resources and opportunity to put together a better middle relief corps, but didn't because he believe that what he had was good enough. It is quite possible he was saying on Opening Day, "man, I wished I had more to work with to build a better bullpen. I wished I could have gone after somebody like Eric Gagne."

Kenny is a gambler. He would rather catch lightning in a bottle then make a big splash. Whats the last BIG free agent he signed, Dye? Dye was not even considered in the top 10 when he picked him up. But for every Dye there is an Erstad, and for every Javier Vazquez there is a David Wells.

He also "gambled" on Contreas, Podsednik, trading Lee, letting Maggs walk, El Duque, Hermanson, and Big Bad Bobby Jenks. In the meantime, the Yanks, for instance, have gambled on trading Contreas for Loiaza (sp?), Hideki Irabu, Clemons @ $1mil per start, Randy Johnson, having no reliable closer ready to back up the aging Rivera, letting El Duque walk, and an assortment of middle relievers no better than what the Sox have put together in the past 5-7 years.

I don't know what people are really expecting with Kenny. He doesn't do deals with Scott Boras which takes him out of a lot of good free agents, we just never are players in free agency. We don't have much to trade outside of Garland, so I expect next year to be a lot like this, gambling on vets coming off injuries, gambling on pitchers who throw over 95 mph but have no clue where its going when they let it go, and gambling on our injury prone guys to stay healthy.

A lot of successful teams don't deal with Boras. Among the teams gambling on vets coming off injuries are LAAAAAAA, NYY, Boston, Detroit, and Toronto, all of whom had better records than the Sox this year. With long-term contracts, it's the nature of the game.

This team is much more of a mess then people realize. Its sad in a way. We have a great 1-3 SP, a great heart of our lineup, a top 5 closer, but after those guys our team is a mess.

No one disputes that KW has his work cut out for him. But the premise of the OP's comments on KW's statements to the press seemed to be that he took to heart what KW said and accepts that as a true indicator of the team's offseason strategy. As I and other posters have noted, it would be irresponsible for him to tip his hand at this time, even if other teams are keenly aware of the Sox' needs.

balke
10-03-2007, 11:25 AM
I don't see Kenny doing anything this offseason except cutting some players. Fields will be on the team, in LF most likely. CF is probably Owens at this point and possibly a minor leaguer. RF is taken by Dye. They will try Crede at 3B, which will probably work. They want Uribe, they love Richar right now at 2B. Paulie isn't going anywhere I don't think.

The things I see happening, Uribe gets signed so he can be packaged with a pitcher for a SS. He could possibly sign a free agent CFer if the price is right, but I don't think the price will be right. He could package AJ with a good pitcher for a CFer or SS.

I think he'll go through free agency or within for the bullpen, because they did alright in the second half. Other than that, I can see him standing pat and giving it one last shot. If they stink again, I think next years trading deadline is where the Sox lose players.

eriqjaffe
10-03-2007, 11:58 AM
He could package AJ with a good pitcher for a CFer or SS.Do you really want Toby Hall and Donny Lucy to be the backstops in 2008?

balke
10-03-2007, 12:02 PM
Do you really want Toby Hall and Donny Lucy to be the backstops in 2008?

I don't, but I don't really want Uribe at SS. If the Sox can trade A.J. for speed or youth in the lineup, I'm down. I like his play, but he's one of the few players of value. 2 year contract extended all-star who's handled a great pitching staff.

Sox can't make trades of nothing for something like everyone wants to believe.

Frater Perdurabo
10-03-2007, 01:04 PM
After reading Lip's stats and analysis in the other thread, the bottom line is that only a terrible middle relief corps prevented the 2007 Sox from contending. The team blew 18 games in which they had a lead in the seventh inning or later. Eighteen more wins equals 90 wins. So fault KW for assembling a crappy bullpen and fault those pitchers for not holding those leads. Every team blows leads, but there also are times when hitters bail out a bullpen. This offense didn't, and it's not KW's fault. It's squarely on the players. Paulie had an off year. Any reasonable person should expect him to "progress to the mean" of his career averages. Same with AJ and Dye. Thome did about what we should expect: nagging injuries, but led the team in HRs, OBP and Ks.

Injury-risk Crede got hurt, but KW's backup plan - Fields - filled in admirably. Give KW credit.

Injury-risk Pods got hurt, but KW's backup plan - Ozuna - broke his leg running the bases. Is that KW's fault?

Injury-risk Erstad got hurt, but KW's backup plan - Owens - performed well for a very raw rookie after a slow start. Give KW credit.

Hall got hurt playing 1B in a spring training game. Is that KW's fault?

Premature ejaculators think KW is doing a poor job if he doesn't publicly declare plans to acquire A-Rod, Furcal, Hunter and Rowand, and then actually do it. Why not just sit back and see how this offseason unfolds? Go talk playoffs in "Talking Baseball." Go whine in the "Super Bears" forum. Or exorcise your flubsession in "What's the Score." But those of you who already are condemning KW - for what you in your unprecedented genius predict he might do for 2008 based on his public comments before the 2007 playoffs even begin - are seriously delusional and trollish.
:rolleyes:

jabrch
10-03-2007, 01:06 PM
GREAT POST FRATER...TRULY AWESOME.

After reading Lip's stats and analysis in the other thread, the bottom line is that only a terrible middle relief corps prevented the 2007 Sox from contending. The team blew 18 games in which they had a lead in the seventh inning or later. Eighteen more wins equals 90 wins. So fault KW for assembling a crappy bullpen and fault those pitchers for not holding those leads. Every team blows leads, but there also are times when hitters bail out a bullpen. This offense didn't, and it's not KW's fault. It's squarely on the players. Paulie had an off year. Any reasonable person should expect him to "progress to the mean" of his career averages. Same with AJ and Dye. Thome did about what we should expect: nagging injuries, but led the team in HRs, OBP and Ks.

Injury-risk Crede got hurt, but KW's backup plan - Fields - filled in admirably. Give KW credit.

Injury-risk Pods got hurt, but KW's backup plan - Ozuna - broke his leg running the bases. Is that KW's fault?

Injury-risk Erstad got hurt, but KW's backup plan - Owens - performed well for a very raw rookie after a slow start. Give KW credit.

Hall got hurt playing 1B in a spring training game. Is that KW's fault?

Premature ejaculators think KW is doing a poor job if he doesn't publicly declare plans to acquire A-Rod, Furcal, Hunter and Rowand, and then actually do it. Why not just sit back and see how this offseason unfolds? Go talk playoffs in "Talking Baseball." Go whine in the "Super Bears" forum. Or exorcise your flubsession in "What's the Score." But those of you who already are condemning KW - for what you in your unprecedented genius predict he might do for 2008 based on his public comments before the 2007 playoffs even begin - are seriously delusional and trollish.
:rolleyes:

JB98
10-03-2007, 01:16 PM
I don't, but I don't really want Uribe at SS. If the Sox can trade A.J. for speed or youth in the lineup, I'm down. I like his play, but he's one of the few players of value. 2 year contract extended all-star who's handled a great pitching staff.

Sox can't make trades of nothing for something like everyone wants to believe.

If he had any plans to trade AJ, he would not have signed him to an extension. Don't you remember what it was like before AJ? Jorge Fabregas, Spanky LaValliere, Brook Fordyce, Mark Johnson, Sandy Alomar, Miguel Olivo, Ben Davis, et al., didn't exactly get the job done. Why start another catching carousel?

Catcher is an important position, and I'm glad we have a reliable veteran there. AJ has played on FIVE 90-WIN TEAMS during his seven-year career. The dude is a winner. He ain't going anywhere.

asindc
10-03-2007, 01:18 PM
After reading Lip's stats and analysis in the other thread, the bottom line is that only a terrible middle relief corps prevented the 2007 Sox from contending. The team blew 18 games in which they had a lead in the seventh inning or later. Eighteen more wins equals 90 wins. So fault KW for assembling a crappy bullpen and fault those pitchers for not holding those leads. Every team blows leads, but there also are times when hitters bail out a bullpen. This offense didn't, and it's not KW's fault. It's squarely on the players. Paulie had an off year. Any reasonable person should expect him to "progress to the mean" of his career averages. Same with AJ and Dye. Thome did about what we should expect: nagging injuries, but led the team in HRs, OBP and Ks.

Injury-risk Crede got hurt, but KW's backup plan - Fields - filled in admirably. Give KW credit.

Injury-risk Pods got hurt, but KW's backup plan - Ozuna - broke his leg running the bases. Is that KW's fault?

Injury-risk Erstad got hurt, but KW's backup plan - Owens - performed well for a very raw rookie after a slow start. Give KW credit.

Hall got hurt playing 1B in a spring training game. Is that KW's fault?

Premature ejaculators think KW is doing a poor job if he doesn't publicly declare plans to acquire A-Rod, Furcal, Hunter and Rowand, and then actually do it. Why not just sit back and see how this offseason unfolds? Go talk playoffs in "Talking Baseball." Go whine in the "Super Bears" forum. Or exorcise your flubsession in "What's the Score." But those of you who already are condemning KW - for what you in your unprecedented genius predict he might do for 2008 based on his public comments before the 2007 playoffs even begin - are seriously delusional and trollish.
:rolleyes:

What Frater said, especially the "delusional and trollish" part.

Lip Man 1
10-03-2007, 01:25 PM
Asin:

Regarding an earlier post from you I have only one point of clarification.

It's this passage:

He also "gambled" on Contreas, Podsednik, trading Lee, letting Maggs walk, El Duque, Hermanson, and Big Bad Bobby Jenks. In the meantime, the Yanks, for instance, have gambled on trading Contreas for Loiaza (sp?), Hideki Irabu, Clemons @ $1mil per start, Randy Johnson, having no reliable closer ready to back up the aging Rivera, letting El Duque walk, and an assortment of middle relievers no better than what the Sox have put together in the past 5-7 years.

The Yankees have also made the playoffs 13 consecutive years and all seven during the time Kenny has been G.M. of the Sox. They are obviously doing something right whatever the means despite the issues that you bring up.

And when all is said and done, that's the bottom line isn't it? Making the playoffs?

Lip

balke
10-03-2007, 01:29 PM
If he had any plans to trade AJ, he would not have signed him to an extension. Don't you remember what it was like before AJ? Jorge Fabregas, Spanky LaValliere, Brook Fordyce, Mark Johnson, Sandy Alomar, Miguel Olivo, Ben Davis, et al., didn't exactly get the job done. Why start another catching carousel?

Catcher is an important position, and I'm glad we have a reliable veteran there. AJ has played on FIVE 90-WIN TEAMS during his seven-year career. The dude is a winner. He ain't going anywhere.

I know all of that, but I know this team is slow and old. Perhaps that's a move he wouldn't want to make til next trade deadline, but AJ is a winner and a lot of teams would take him. You can't say that for many players on the team with 2 year contracts. Again its not that I want AJ traded, but not many players on this team can or will be traded for anything valuable. That's one strong spot on the team for the Sox, Catcher.

Domeshot17
10-03-2007, 01:35 PM
After reading Lip's stats and analysis in the other thread, the bottom line is that only a terrible middle relief corps prevented the 2007 Sox from contending. The team blew 18 games in which they had a lead in the seventh inning or later. Eighteen more wins equals 90 wins. So fault KW for assembling a crappy bullpen and fault those pitchers for not holding those leads. Every team blows leads, but there also are times when hitters bail out a bullpen. This offense didn't, and it's not KW's fault. It's squarely on the players. Paulie had an off year. Any reasonable person should expect him to "progress to the mean" of his career averages. Same with AJ and Dye. Thome did about what we should expect: nagging injuries, but led the team in HRs, OBP and Ks.

Injury-risk Crede got hurt, but KW's backup plan - Fields - filled in admirably. Give KW credit.

Injury-risk Pods got hurt, but KW's backup plan - Ozuna - broke his leg running the bases. Is that KW's fault?

Injury-risk Erstad got hurt, but KW's backup plan - Owens - performed well for a very raw rookie after a slow start. Give KW credit.

Hall got hurt playing 1B in a spring training game. Is that KW's fault?

Premature ejaculators think KW is doing a poor job if he doesn't publicly declare plans to acquire A-Rod, Furcal, Hunter and Rowand, and then actually do it. Why not just sit back and see how this offseason unfolds? Go talk playoffs in "Talking Baseball." Go whine in the "Super Bears" forum. Or exorcise your flubsession in "What's the Score." But those of you who already are condemning KW - for what you in your unprecedented genius predict he might do for 2008 based on his public comments before the 2007 playoffs even begin - are seriously delusional and trollish.
:rolleyes:

I still disagree. When you have a 7 8 9 1 2 of Uribe Andy Gonzalez Terrero/richar (depending on the month) Owens Fields, you are not going to win many games. You also aren't going to have hitters on base for your 3 4 5 hitters. That is on Kenny for not picking up depth in the minors, depth at the majors, and failing to pick up people mid season.

Im not saying FIRE Kenny, but but Kenny doesn't have the track record of landing high profile free agents. There are a few at our weakest position, CF, and a fair amount at SS and RP. Would it suprise anyone if we passed on the big names and went for the projects again?

After a 72 win season and seeing a team that had Terrero Gonzalez Cintron Bukvich Sisco Aardsma etc. etc. etc. Running out there this season, Im not exactly ready to give Kenny a free pass as GM of the century anymore. So my reaction is more based off Kennys track record and not his comments. I also find it hard to believe someone who wants to trade Konerko for Furcal is insulting anyone :redface:.

rdivaldi
10-03-2007, 01:46 PM
This team is much more of a mess then people realize. Its sad in a way. We have a great 1-3 SP, a great heart of our lineup, a top 5 closer, but after those guys our team is a mess.


That's a bit over the top. With the unpredictable nature of middle relievers I would put $$$ down on Thornton, MacDougal and Logan forming a very solid end of the bullpen next year. I am also very optimistic about Danks, he pitched very well until the end of the season. He did more than I would expect from a rookie at that stage of his development. Also, considering Contreras' ugly divorce, I wouldn't be surprised that if that was weighing heavily on him all season.

We could turn it around quickly if cooler heads prevail.

rdivaldi
10-03-2007, 01:48 PM
And when all is said and done, that's the bottom line isn't it? Making the playoffs?

Lip

I'd take it a step further and say that the bottom line is a championship, something the Yankees haven't had in the 21st century BTW.

Lip Man 1
10-03-2007, 01:53 PM
Rdivaldi:

I can only speak for myself but as a Sox fan of 47 years I'd LOVE to make the playoffs 13 or 7 or hell even 2 years in a row and take my chances. As the late Bill Walsh once said 'once you get to the post season, anything can happen.'

And again just speaking for myself I'd take that bet regarding Thornton, Logan and MacDougal forming a "very solid end" of a bullpen next season.

Lip

rdivaldi
10-03-2007, 01:54 PM
That is on Kenny for not picking up depth in the minors, depth at the majors, and failing to pick up people mid season.

I don't think anyone could have predicted the quick loss of Crede and Ozuna coupled with the Hall injury. I'm not aware of any team that has a farm system to recover from the losses we suffered. 90 losses are hard to stomach, but it will take smart moves not rash ones to turn it around.

rdivaldi
10-03-2007, 01:55 PM
And again just speaking for myself I'd take that bet regarding Thornton, Logan and MacDougal forming a "very solid back end" of a bullpen next season.
Lip

You're on, I propose 1,000 imaginary message board dollars.
:smile:

jabrch
10-03-2007, 02:03 PM
We could turn it around quickly if cooler heads prevail.

I agree 100%. Between what we have here on the roster, what is coming off of the DL, what we have in the minors that is major league ready, and whatever KW can do - I see no reason to believe we can't contend next year.

At the same time, if the same perfect storm arises, we can end up in this same position again.

asindc
10-03-2007, 02:13 PM
Asin:

Regarding an earlier post from you I have only one point of clarification.

It's this passage:

He also "gambled" on Contreas, Podsednik, trading Lee, letting Maggs walk, El Duque, Hermanson, and Big Bad Bobby Jenks. In the meantime, the Yanks, for instance, have gambled on trading Contreas for Loiaza (sp?), Hideki Irabu, Clemons @ $1mil per start, Randy Johnson, having no reliable closer ready to back up the aging Rivera, letting El Duque walk, and an assortment of middle relievers no better than what the Sox have put together in the past 5-7 years.

The Yankees have also made the playoffs 13 consecutive years and all seven during the time Kenny has been G.M. of the Sox. They are obviously doing something right whatever the means despite the issues that you bring up.

And when all is said and done, that's the bottom line isn't it? Making the playoffs?

Lip

Yes, but my point is that some here are criticizing KW for "gambling" when he has done the same kind of gambling that Cashman has done. And both GMs, heck, all GMs have to do the same kind of gambling, regardless of resources available. When Eric Gagne was the big FA prize among relievers this past offseason, that should tell you what KW and all other GMs had to work with.

With that said, all those who are for the Sox spending the same amount of money on players' salaries as the Yankees, raise your hand.

RCWHITESOX
10-03-2007, 02:48 PM
That's nice and all. But I am now looking forward to the future, you know, ones without 90 losses?

I'm with you. Lets see pitching staff 1441 IP 1556 hits given up team era 4.77
693 runs scored 839 given up team batting ave .246. J Uribe one of the worst clutch hitters all year. He was horrible until Sept. A huge hole in CF Owens has no arm at all. The bullpen a total disaster with the exception of Jenks.Lets hope KW has some significant changes up his sleeve.

rdivaldi
10-03-2007, 02:49 PM
I agree 100%. Between what we have here on the roster, what is coming off of the DL, what we have in the minors that is major league ready, and whatever KW can do - I see no reason to believe we can't contend next year.

At the same time, if the same perfect storm arises, we can end up in this same position again.

Yeah, that's very true. I'd like to think that the injury gods will smile upon us next year after what we had to put up with this year.

eriqjaffe
10-03-2007, 03:28 PM
Yeah, that's very true. I'd like to think that the injury gods will smile upon us next year after what we had to put up with this year.I think the injury gods were angry at the Sox for mocking them with the Erstad signing. "PRITHEE, THOU THINKEST THAT THOU SHALT SIGN TWO INJURIE-PRONETH OUTFIELDERS AND NOT RUE THE DAE? A CURSE UPON THEE, SIR KENNETH!!!"

Lip Man 1
10-03-2007, 03:36 PM
Well over the past seven years the 'injury gods' have done quite a number on the Sox. Everyone immediately talks about this year but 2001 and 2004 were no picnic either.

Lip

rdivaldi
10-03-2007, 04:03 PM
Well over the past seven years the 'injury gods' have done quite a number on the Sox. Everyone immediately talks about this year but 2001 and 2004 were no picnic either.

Lip

2004 ranks up there as one of the worst ever. Guess our incredibly good luck in 2005 made up for it.

eriqjaffe
10-03-2007, 04:07 PM
2004 ranks up there as one of the worst ever. Guess our incredibly good luck in 2005 made up for it.Ironically, Magglio's 2004's injury may have been a blessing in disguise - if he hadn't messed up his knee to then-unknown extents, the Sox may have either been more aggressive with a contract extension, or at least offered him arbitration which he may have accepted. Being on the hook for that salary in '05 would probably have meant no Iguchi, no Pierzynski, no championship.

Besdies, it allowed the Sox to finally realize that Joe Borchard was a bust.

The Immigrant
10-03-2007, 04:08 PM
Guess our incredibly good luck in 2005 made up for it.

Even then our best hitter missed virtually the entire season and our initially lights-out closer (Hermanson) was virtually useless by mid-August. The difference is that the 2005 team persevered despite potentially crippling injuries, and of course the fact that Bobby Jenks came out of nowhere to close.

eriqjaffe
10-03-2007, 04:12 PM
Bobby Jenks came out of nowhere to close.So did Hermanson.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/images/baseball/mlb/players/7255.jpg
"Remember me, the Opening Day closer?"

SBSoxFan
10-03-2007, 04:27 PM
So did Hermanson.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/images/baseball/mlb/players/7255.jpg
"Remember me, the Opening Day closer?"

You're right. It's hard to remember/believe Shingo was still with the team in July.

eriqjaffe
10-03-2007, 05:27 PM
You're right. It's hard to remember/believe Shingo was still with the team in July.Yep. If Mr. Zero hadn't given up 3 solo bombs to the Indians (including back-to-back 2-out shots, mind you) in the third game of the season, the Sox would've won an even 100 games.

jabrch
10-03-2007, 05:45 PM
2004 ranks up there as one of the worst ever. Guess our incredibly good luck in 2005 made up for it.


Yeah - 2005 made up for a lot of things. Our health from the beginning of the season all the way through was a key part of what 2005 was.

Sargeant79
10-03-2007, 05:55 PM
I agree 100%. Between what we have here on the roster, what is coming off of the DL, what we have in the minors that is major league ready, and whatever KW can do - I see no reason to believe we can't contend next year.

At the same time, if the same perfect storm arises, we can end up in this same position again.

This is right on. In 2005, we entered the season in a very similar position. Pods, Garland, El Duque, Frank Thomas (or more accurately, his health), A.J. and his ability to not be a cancer, the bullpen, Contreras...all and then some were big question marks entering the season. Things just came together that year.

Then in 2006, what many people thought was a better team on paper managed to win 90 games but not make the playoffs owing largely to a lot of pitching not doing what it was supposed to do.

The ball could bounce either way in 2008. That's why they play the games...to find out.

PennStater98r
10-03-2007, 06:17 PM
Kenny Williams said that he is not going to be a busy as many expect him to be. This was in the Sun-Times today. I found this comment odd. Of course, he simply might not be showing his hand at what he may be doing.


:?:

I don't know if this has been said or not, but this is really just KW's way of saying this team is closer than it appeared. He's trying to let the fans know that the team is better than our record this year. That said, you can bet he'll try to fix the holes.

upperdeckusc
10-03-2007, 06:51 PM
Kenny has dropped the ball plenty this past year. As I said, this is only one of the reasons I feel the way I do.

He has some proving to do.

if dropping the ball, you mean he:
-couldnt control that his bullpen completely **** their pants, after a lot of experts and people around the league thought we were going to have one of the top pens in all of baseball.
-knew before spring training that all of our core hitters would have below-average years and our offense in general, which always puts up good stats as a team, would finish DEAD LAST in almost all categories.
-knew before spring training that injuries to crede, ozuna, dye, pods, and thome would occur (probably only 2 of those were seen as possibilities).
if 2 of those scenarios goes as they usually have and were expected to, we would have been in the running all season. this isnt dropping the ball, it's just bad luck. but now, hopefully, he'll set up the team to be even more prepared so we have some backup options if these freak incidents happen again.

DickAllen72
10-03-2007, 08:13 PM
Premature ejaculators think KW is doing a poor job if he doesn't publicly declare plans to acquire A-Rod, Furcal, Hunter and Rowand, and then actually do it. Why not just sit back and see how this offseason unfolds? Go talk playoffs in "Talking Baseball." Go whine in the "Super Bears" forum. Or exorcise your flubsession in "What's the Score." But those of you who already are condemning KW - for what you in your unprecedented genius predict he might do for 2008 based on his public comments before the 2007 playoffs even begin - are seriously delusional and trollish.
:rolleyes:

:thumbsup: Bravo! :cheers:

palehozenychicty
10-03-2007, 08:16 PM
Yes, but my point is that some here are criticizing KW for "gambling" when he has done the same kind of gambling that Cashman has done. And both GMs, heck, all GMs have to do the same kind of gambling, regardless of resources available. When Eric Gagne was the big FA prize among relievers this past offseason, that should tell you what KW and all other GMs had to work with.

With that said, all those who are for the Sox spending the same amount of money on players' salaries as the Yankees, raise your hand.


If we can get to the playoffs perenially, yes my hand is up.

kevin57
10-03-2007, 10:43 PM
If we can get to the playoffs perenially, yes my hand is up.

Just getting to the playoffs, while nice, is sort of like having that one Jays potato chip.

Atlanta was a perennial playoff team and by the end of that run they were considered a laughing stock for not being able to seal the deal.

Lip Man 1
10-04-2007, 01:35 AM
For 14 straight post season appearance fans can laugh all they want. As for me, I'll gladly take it and take my chances.

It sure beats sitting at home and having no chance doesn't it?

Lip

TommyJohn
10-04-2007, 09:01 AM
For 14 straight post season appearance fans can laugh all they want. As for me, I'll gladly take it and take my chances.

It sure beats sitting at home and having no chance doesn't it?

Lip

Just remember the old saying about the grass always being greener.

eriqjaffe
10-04-2007, 09:09 AM
Just getting to the playoffs, while nice, is sort of like having that one Jays potato chip.And the Jays haven't been to the playoffs since 1993.

(A moment of silence for 1993, please...thank you.)

soxfanatlanta
10-04-2007, 09:33 AM
Just remember the old saying about the grass always being greener.

I've seen enough of the Braves winning seasons to say with much authority that the grass is indeed greener on the side labeled "14 consecutive playoff runs". The quality of play was good to exceptional every damn year. Sure, it stung when they were they were eliminated, but the games were watchable. I cannot say the same for our guys since the first half of '06.

I'm not looking for a 90+ win season next year for the Sox; I just want to see good baseball again.

asindc
10-04-2007, 11:05 AM
For those that want to hang on every word KW utters to the press, here is the latest:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/whitesox/notes.htm

D. TODD
10-04-2007, 11:53 AM
KW is just searching for some open airspace below the radar.

Lip Man 1
10-04-2007, 01:11 PM
That 'story' is basically a reprint of the local stories which started this thread in the first place. In fact USA Today may have gotten permission to reprint the story from the Tribune or the Sun Times.

Lip

HerzogVon
10-04-2007, 01:12 PM
Father Perdurabo says:

>>Premature ejaculators think KW is doing a poor job if he doesn't publicly declare plans to acquire A-Rod, Furcal, Hunter and Rowand, and then actually do it. Why not just sit back and see how this offseason unfolds? Go talk playoffs in "Talking Baseball." Go whine in the "Super Bears" forum. Or exorcise your flubsession in "What's the Score." But those of you who already are condemning KW - for what you in your unprecedented genius predict he might do for 2008 based on his public comments before the 2007 playoffs even begin - are seriously delusional and trollish.<<

Premature ejaculators?? Delusional and trollish?? Gee, I'm sure glad flaming isn't allowed here...unless, of course, you are a ranking member of the clergy.

asindc
10-04-2007, 01:47 PM
That 'story' is basically a reprint of the local stories which started this thread in the first place. In fact USA Today may have gotten permission to reprint the story from the Tribune or the Sun Times.

Lip

I don't doubt you at all that the USAToday Team Notes are basically reprints of earlier stories from other media outlets. I just wonder how the OP could have missed this KW quote:

"I'll put it to you this way there isn't one player out there that will be available that we will turn away from," Williams said. "If that player can help us, we're going to go down that road to see if the fit is there and the economics match."

Doesn't quite grab me as a sit-on-their-hands approach. Either way, criticizing KW for what he might do, as opposed to what he has done, seems rather pointless.

HerzogVon
10-04-2007, 01:48 PM
if dropping the ball, you mean he:
-couldnt control that his bullpen completely **** their pants, after a lot of experts and people around the league thought we were going to have one of the top pens in all of baseball.
-knew before spring training that all of our core hitters would have below-average years and our offense in general, which always puts up good stats as a team, would finish DEAD LAST in almost all categories.
-knew before spring training that injuries to crede, ozuna, dye, pods, and thome would occur (probably only 2 of those were seen as possibilities).
if 2 of those scenarios goes as they usually have and were expected to, we would have been in the running all season. this isnt dropping the ball, it's just bad luck. but now, hopefully, he'll set up the team to be even more prepared so we have some backup options if these freak incidents happen again.

This is the sort of logical nit-picking ~ and I do not say this in a condescending way, or otherwise I would not have included the word logical ~ that one sees so often on these pages. It's all perfectly true, insofar as it goes, but what it fails to take into account is the lack of fire; indeed, the total lethargy that this team has exhibited since the second half of 2006. This simply can't be accounted for by pointing to injuries, "off years" or any of the rest of the often trotted out "explanations".

No, there is something seriously wrong with this club that goes beyond the realm of statistical analysis. I call it chemistry, though few would agree. You can blame it on the coaching or the managing, I suppose - and to some degree, you should - but in the end, it all comes down to decisions and personnel changes that Kenny made; nobody else. He may be a gambler, but he sure as heck is no alchemist.

Trust intuition over logic: Afterall, this IS baseball!!

asindc
10-04-2007, 01:56 PM
This is the sort of logical nit-picking ~ and I do not say this in a condescending way, or otherwise I would not have included the word logical ~ that one sees so often on these pages. It's all perfectly true, insofar as it goes, but what it fails to take into account is the lack of fire; indeed, the total lethargy that this team has exhibited since the second half of 2006. This simply can't be accounted for by pointing to injuries, "off years" or any of the rest of the often trotted out "explanations".

No, there is something seriously wrong with this club that goes beyond the realm of statistical analysis. I call it chemistry, though few would agree. You can blame it on the coaching or the managing, I suppose - and to some degree, you should - but in the end, it all comes down to decisions and personnel changes that Kenny made; nobody else. He may be a gambler, but he sure as heck is no alchemist.

Trust intuition over logic: Afterall, this IS baseball!!

I was just thinking the same thing earlier today. The Sox have lacked a certain "vibrancy" (for lack of a better word) to their game that was there in 2005. Sometime early on in 2006, they lost it and it hasn't come back since. This year's team was a polar opposite to the the 2005 team in this regard.

SBSoxFan
10-04-2007, 02:33 PM
I was just thinking the same thing earlier today. The Sox have lacked a certain "vibrancy" (for lack of a better word) to their game that was there in 2005. Sometime in early on in 2006, they lost and it hasn't come back since. This year's team was a polar opposite to the the 2005 team in this regard.

In lieu of an all-star at every position, certain intangibles must be taken into consideration when building a team. Perhaps, it's a pre-cursor to chemistry? Anyway, that's actually why I like having some football players on the team. They bring a certain dynamic/attitude/energy that typically isn't seen on the baseball field. However, it also probably means you have to be willing to live with the emotional drains such a personality will go through over such a long season.

Frater Perdurabo
10-04-2007, 09:21 PM
Gee, I'm sure glad flaming isn't allowed here...unless, of course, you are a ranking member of the clergy.

Not flaming. Not name-calling. Just give KW some time. Why not hold off on judgments at least until Spring Training starts, or better yet, until the All Star Break?

KW IS PROHIBITED from saying who he wants if they are on other teams. That's tampering and it's a violation of MLB rules. Even if it was allowed, it would be stupid for him to "show his cards" now. Please don't pre-judge an offseason.