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Lip Man 1
09-29-2007, 08:37 PM
From White Sox.com:

It's the middle section and is not the entire story.

My only comment is that if Kenny honestly feels this way, then the Sox are in for more difficult times in this area in 2008. (Particularly his last sentence.)


In need of relief: Ozzie Guillen has encouraged his coaches and other staff members to express their true feelings in regard to team needs at the mid-October organizational meetings in Arizona. Pitching coach Don Cooper got a jump on that suggestion by targeting one particular area of bullpen assistance.

Mod edit: All material on whitesox.com is copyrighted by MLB. Your quote went far beyond fair use.

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
09-29-2007, 08:44 PM
Lip, it might only take two very good relievers to solidify this pen.

If KW inks two veterans with starting and/or closing experience, who know how to get outs in tight situations, then all of a sudden the two new guys are setting up Jenks, and then Thornton/MacDougal are being used less (and are therefore more selective).

TDog
09-29-2007, 08:58 PM
...

(This was said of course, before Boone Logan gave up the tying run in the 8th inning this evening.)

Lip

I'm sure a veteran wouldn't have given up a solo home run while protecting a one-run lead in the eighth. (Teal implied.)

I understand your frustration, but the White Sox have tied and taken the lead against Zumaya this year after everyone considered him unhittable as a rookie last year. They have come back in the late innings against the veterans in the Angels bullpen.

Giving up a solo home run to tie the game isn't the mark of a bad bullpen, especially when the bullpen leaves the Sox in a position to win in their last at bat. It's the big innings Sox relievers have surrendered late this season that marks this bullpen as bad.

Lip Man 1
09-29-2007, 09:03 PM
TDog:

And Logan has done this for example how many times this year?

I'm not trying to single out Logan although personally I don't think he's any good, but it was simply used as an example that a bullpen that has been awful for two consecutive seasons is somehow going to 'magically' get better by luck. (as Cooper mentioned in part in his comments.)

The bullpen should be judged on results, not on how long a guy is signed for, how much experience a guy has or don't have or how hard a guy throws.

The only thing that matters is results and certainly in 2007 the entire bullpen except for Jenks hasn't produced them. Plus some of the guys who were responsible for the poor performance in 07 were also responsible for the bad job crafted by the bullpen in 2006.

In my opinion major surgery is needed in this area not a cosmetic 'face lift.'

Time will tell who is right.

Lip

Tragg
09-29-2007, 09:09 PM
What do you do with Broadway and Floyd for next year? I guess Broadway could do another year in AAA; Floyd looks prime for our pen. He had 16 appearances this year. In his last 10, he's had a 3.54 ERA. I know it's garbage time, but if you factor out that he got killed in 4 of his first 6 appearances, he's pitched well since then both at home and on the road.

A. Cavatica
09-29-2007, 09:18 PM
What do you do with Broadway and Floyd for next year? I guess Broadway could do another year in AAA; Floyd looks prime for our pen. He had 16 appearances this year. In his last 10, he's had a 3.54 ERA. I know it's garbage time, but if you factor out that he got killed in 4 of his first 6 appearances, he's pitched well since then both at home and on the road.

He's pitched better as a starter. I think you let them both compete for a starting spot in spring training, along with Danks and whomever isn't traded from among Haeger, Phillips, Gonzalez, and Egbert.

TDog
09-29-2007, 09:29 PM
Lip, if the White Sox had gone out and signed veterans who had great bullpen years last year, chances are they would still have a lousy bullpen this year because many of those veterans had lousy seasons this year. The Cubs have more bullpen losses than the White Sox, and the Cubs will be playing next week.

It isn't just a matter of being lucky, although luck is important to a bullpen's overall success. Building a great bullpen in the current labor environment requires finding pitchers like Wasserman and even Logan. It may only take a couple of consistent veterans to solidify the pen in 2008. Starting pitchers that consistently work late into games would improve the bullpen by exposing it less. Scoring more runs would help the bullpen by minimizing the pressure.

Tonight the bullpen didn't lose the game. It blew the save opportunity, but Logan minimized the damage, and the way things worked out, Wasserman got his first major league win. In two of the four 2005 World Series wins, the Sox bullpen gave up the lead, but left the Sox tied and in a position to win in their last at bat. Even Baseball Prospectus wrote that the Sox had a great bullpen in 2005.

Of course, BP thought the Sox had a great bullpen in April 2007.

Corlose 15
09-29-2007, 09:51 PM
I'm kind of going back and forth in terms of what needs to happen to the bullpen. Obviously, it didn't work this year and Kenny has taken some blame for it but I think the biggest issue with the pen this year wasn't necessarily Masset/Aardsma/Sisco but that both MacDougal and for the most part Thornton were awful. Who saw that coming, even though MacDougal has ahd injury problems in his career his era has consistently been under four and Thornton supposedly turned the corner coming into this season.

I thought it needed to be totally reworked around Jenks going into next year and it still does but I'm interested to see how many inhouse replacements there really will be. Wahsserman has done well and both Floyd, and Broadway have been impressive. I'm very interested to see how the pitching staff shapes up going into next year. Does Adam Russell still have a shot despite a mediocre year in Birmingham? There isn't going to be a lot available in terms of relief, KW is going to have to be creative and some internal players are going to have to step up. We'll see.

Hitmen77
09-29-2007, 11:20 PM
Lip,
The problem is that the Sox have plenty of holes to fill such that it's going to be difficult to fill more than 2 bullpen spots from outside the organization while also dealing with our CF and SS problems.

There likely isn't enough salary flexibility or remaining talent to trade to go around to fill more than 2 bullpen spots with established relievers.

My guess is that next spring, the Sox will start the season with at least Jenks, Thornton, Wasserman, and maybe Logan in the pen. If Floyd doesn't win the 5th spot and isn't traded, will be in the pen because he is out of options.

JB98
09-29-2007, 11:23 PM
What do you do with Broadway and Floyd for next year? I guess Broadway could do another year in AAA; Floyd looks prime for our pen. He had 16 appearances this year. In his last 10, he's had a 3.54 ERA. I know it's garbage time, but if you factor out that he got killed in 4 of his first 6 appearances, he's pitched well since then both at home and on the road.

Those guys will compete for the last couple spots on the pitching staff next spring, along with Danks. Among the three, two probably make the club. One as the fifth starter, the other as the long man out of the bullpen.

I certainly hope that Kenny will add two or possibly three new relievers for 2008. Other than Jenks and Wassermann, no one has done enough to solidify a position in next year's bullpen, IMO.

I'm done with MacDougal, Sisco, Aardsma and Masset. Don't want to see any of them on the mound for the Sox again, although MacDougal's contract is going to be damn hard to move. KW might be stuck there.

It's Time
09-30-2007, 12:07 AM
How good would Marte look on this team right now? Maybe KW can rob the Pirates for him? Offer, say, Mike Meyers for him??:redneck

DrCrawdad
09-30-2007, 01:10 AM
How good would Marte look on this team right now? Maybe KW can rob the Pirates for him? Offer, say, Mike Meyers for him??:redneck

I have to admit I liked the Marte for Mack. trade when it went down. Of course I did not foresee the Sox using Mack. so much in CF either.

The Marte/Mack. trade hurt the Sox BP and hurt the Sox defensively considering how the Sox ended up using Mack (63 games in CF, UGH.)

StillMissOzzie
09-30-2007, 01:18 AM
I didn't read the whole article, as my son was reading bits and pieces to me while driving around earlier today. I was most disturbed by Don Cooper's remarks about wanting Mike Myers back for next year.

Just say NO, Coop!!!

SMO
:o:

SBSoxFan
09-30-2007, 05:28 AM
The video of KW's press conference from yesterday is on whitesox.com also.

PalehosePlanet
09-30-2007, 10:36 AM
As many have already mentioned middle relivers and set-up men are very much hit and miss from year to year. You don't panis and ditch everyone.

For example Cleveland's bullpen was absolutely dreadful last year, yet they assumed that most of their talented relievers who had bad years (Bettencourt, et al) would rebound the this year. All they did was add a marginal closer in Borowski and their bullpen rebounded and had a good year.

Lip, your idea to completely blow it up and rebuild most of the pen is what most teams seem to do year to year. It's the reason you see guys like David Weathers bouncing around from team to team even though he has been mostly succesful. It's the reason we traded Marte: Guy has an off year he's traded, then next thing you know, the following year he's pitching well again.

I thinj we should take a simillar approach to Cleveland and not blow it up. McDougal, Thornton and Logan (a 22 year old lefty that throws 93 you don't give up on. He just needs a little time and I believe that by the time he's 24 or 25 that he'll be on the short list of rock-solid lefty RP's in all of MLB) WILL have better years.

If we add Scott Linebrink, a carrer NL'er that the AL hasn't seen much of, he could perform very much the way Hermanson did for us in '05 (another career NL'er that the AL hadn't seen.) If we give him 3yrs/15 mil he'll probably outstanding next year and decent to pretty good in years 2 and 3 of the deal. It's up to KW to figure out the value in such a deal. I, myself, would take it.

Grzegorz
09-30-2007, 11:03 AM
As many have already mentioned middle relivers and set-up men are very much hit and miss from year to year. You don't panis and ditch everyone.

For example Cleveland's bullpen was absolutely dreadful last year, yet they assumed that most of their talented relievers who had bad years (Bettencourt, et al) would rebound the this year. All they did was add a marginal closer in Borowski and their bullpen rebounded and had a good year.

Lip, your idea to completely blow it up and rebuild most of the pen is what most teams seem to do year to year. It's the reason you see guys like David Weathers bouncing around from team to team even though he has been mostly succesful. It's the reason we traded Marte: Guy has an off year he's traded, then next thing you know, the following year he's pitching well again.

I thinj we should take a simillar approach to Cleveland and not blow it up. McDougal, Thornton and Logan (a 22 year old lefty that throws 93 you don't give up on. He just needs a little time and I believe that by the time he's 24 or 25 that he'll be on the short list of rock-solid lefty RP's in all of MLB) WILL have better years.

If we add Scott Linebrink, a carrer NL'er that the AL hasn't seen much of, he could perform very much the way Hermanson did for us in '05 (another career NL'er that the AL hadn't seen.) If we give him 3yrs/15 mil he'll probably outstanding next year and decent to pretty good in years 2 and 3 of the deal. It's up to KW to figure out the value in such a deal. I, myself, would take it.

Great post, I couldn't have said it better myself.

PalehosePlanet, you think the Brewers are ready to give up on signing the UFA Linebrink? :cool:

russ99
09-30-2007, 11:27 AM
If we add Scott Linebrink, a carrer NL'er that the AL hasn't seen much of, he could perform very much the way Hermanson did for us in '05 (another career NL'er that the AL hadn't seen.) If we give him 3yrs/15 mil he'll probably outstanding next year and decent to pretty good in years 2 and 3 of the deal. It's up to KW to figure out the value in such a deal. I, myself, would take it.

I'm all for bringing in Linebrink, despite the high salary.

The one thing the Sox haven't had all season is a legitimate right handed setup man. If Kenny has to overpay a little to have one in '08 so be it, and from what I hear, Linebrink might be interested unlike some top relief FA's, who only sign with teams that will hand them the closer role.

If the Sox don't go into 2008 with a real veteran righty setup man, we're in for more of the same, regardless of any improvements to the rest of the pen.

MacDougal and Wassermann are decent, but neither has shown they can be that guy. They'd be much better off as middle relievers, especially since MacDougal hasn't put together a consistent season in the majors, and I fear Wassermann's patterns will start to get figured out by the league next year.

Lip Man 1
09-30-2007, 12:38 PM
Corlose:

One point...you ask who could have seen the poor years by Thornton and MacDougal coming? I think Flight did and said so early on based on circumstancial evidence (If I'm wrong in this Flight I apologize..)

Basically the thinking was that THornton had one close to good season in his entire major league career and that 2006 might have been a fluke. MacDougal had missed most of two seasons with serious arm issues and was inconsistent.
-----

Regarding the bullpen, Kenny apparently had more comments on this issue and the club in general.

My conclusion at this point (given that this may all be a giant smoke screen) is that it looks like most of the team that finished in 4th place with either 89-90 losses will return.

That's a major gamble and Kenny will be directly responsible for how next season turns out good or bad. I hope he's right. I hope he's 'lucky.'

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/581475,CST-SPT-sox30.article

Lip