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Lip Man 1
09-16-2007, 12:23 PM
Apparently Kenny Williams had a long talk with WSCR radio before last night's game and made some interesting comments as reported by Dan McGrath in the Tribune today.

Keep these comments in context with Paul Laduwski's column in the Daily Southtown I linked to a few days ago. That column quoted Sox organizational members as stating the discussion now centered around how much of an overhaul is needed this off season with some still thinking the Sox are "close."

Here are Williams comments:

General manager Ken Williams gave a fairly expansive "state of the White Sox" interview on WSCR-AM 670, the team's flagship radio station, before the game. He acknowledged that changes were coming over the winter but insisted the Sox "are a better team than what we've played" and cited starting pitching depth and the middle of the batting order as strengths.

"I would never have envisioned us being at or near the bottom in as many hitting categories as we are," Williams said.

Here again is the link to the Southtown column:

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/sports/ladewski/557537,141LAD1.article

At this point in time I can't figure out what 'camp' Kenny is in. I continue to hope major changes will be made this off season to an awfull bullpen, the back end of the rotation, and the top two and bottom two spots in the lineup.

We'll see.

Lip

A. Cavatica
09-16-2007, 04:17 PM
At this point in time I can't figure out what 'camp' Kenny is in. I continue to hope major changes will be made this off season to an awfull bullpen, the back end of the rotation, and the top two and bottom two spots in the lineup.

Kenny's obviously in the "we're close" camp. He built this juggernaut, didn't he?

BainesHOF
09-16-2007, 05:05 PM
Anyone who thinks this team is close (other than to being the worse team in baseball) is in serious denial.

The team needs major changes and a big attitude adjustment.

chisoxmike
09-16-2007, 05:18 PM
eeded this off season with some still thinking the Sox are "close."

Here are Williams comments:

He acknowledged that changes were coming over the winter but insisted the Sox "are a better team than what we've played" and cited starting pitching depth and the middle of the batting order as strengths.

This scares me.

FarWestChicago
09-16-2007, 05:50 PM
Kenny's obviously in the "we're close" camp. He built this juggernaut, didn't he?I only wish you were the GM of the Sox. We would be so much better off. One WS championship? You would have delivered a string. Do something, dude. Get Kenny whacked and get in charge of that bad boy.

Grzegorz
09-16-2007, 06:02 PM
Kenny's obviously in the "we're close" camp. He built this juggernaut, didn't he?

I have faith in Williams; let's see what the off season brings.

CLR01
09-16-2007, 06:05 PM
Did he say anything about suspending practice for ST and next season?

A. Cavatica
09-16-2007, 06:34 PM
I only wish you were the GM of the Sox. We would be so much better off. One WS championship? You would have delivered a string. Do something, dude. Get Kenny whacked and get in charge of that bad boy.

I gave him credit for the WS title, so I'm entitled to blame him for this mess.

goon
09-16-2007, 06:56 PM
I gave him credit for the WS title, so I'm entitled to blame him for this mess.


There are 30 teams in Major League Baseball. 29 of them won't win a Championship this season, so in essence 29 GM's will have failed... Kenny Williams and the White Sox will certainly not be alone. You can can blame him for this mess, you can credit in for having put together a team that won 90 games last season and a World Championship a year before that, but let's not underestimate just how hard it is to win a Championship. I think he has more than earned his job as General Manager.

MetroPD
09-16-2007, 07:10 PM
There are 30 teams in Major League Baseball. 29 of them won't win a Championship this season, so in essence 29 GM's will have failed... Kenny Williams and the White Sox will certainly not be alone. You can can blame him for this mess, you can credit in for having put together a team that won 90 games last season and a World Championship a year before that, but let's not underestimate just how hard it is to win a Championship. I think he has more than earned his job as General Manager.

And out of those 29 other teams there will be approx 1 team that is worse off than the White Sox(Tampa Bay Devil Rays). Not winning the championship I can live with. Bringing up the cellar with the increases in ticket prices and this teams payroll, sorry I'm not a Yankees fan.

UserNameBlank
09-16-2007, 07:18 PM
There are 30 teams in Major League Baseball. 29 of them won't win a Championship this season, so in essence 29 GM's will have failed... Kenny Williams and the White Sox will certainly not be alone. You can can blame him for this mess, you can credit in for having put together a team that won 90 games last season and a World Championship a year before that, but let's not underestimate just how hard it is to win a Championship. I think he has more than earned his job as General Manager.
I agree with this, and have always supported Kenny, but I really don't think he's going to be able to fix this. He needs to start over to at least some degree. He needs at least one rebuilding year to see what he has in his youth, because with the way the FA market is, in order to just put average veteran players on the field it is going to cost upwards of $80-90mil per season.

You have to figure, the going rate on the market is something like:

Corner OF: $8mil+
CF: $7mil+
MIF: $4mil+
1B: $10mil+
3B: $10mil+
Ace: $18mil
#2 starter: $13mil+
#3 starter: $10mil+
#4 starter: $7mil+
Decent Reliever: $3mil+

I mean just putting a veteran .500 team on the field costs a ton of money. The Sox need to get enough productive young players that it allows them to spend on the higher classes of talent out there. Right now they don't have that and with the way the market is today, if the Sox try to spot-patch this thing they are going to inevitably get handcuffed by another Contreras-like contract or two. I hope Kenny works out something but I just don't see 2008 being anything better than a 85 win season. We have a ton of work to do.

Lip Man 1
09-16-2007, 08:11 PM
User:

At this point in time I'd be very satisfied with 85 wins. It looks a hell of a lot better then 75.

Lip

DumpJerry
09-16-2007, 09:43 PM
Kenny's obviously in the "we're close" camp. He built this juggernaut, didn't he?
You're absolutely right on spot. He also built all the injuries which have forced the team, since May, to use primarily AAA and bench players as starters.

Our pitching is pretty deep, actually. The rotation is in decent shape and we have some godo talent which will be ready for next year in the 'pen.

palehozenychicty
09-16-2007, 09:49 PM
I agree with this, and have always supported Kenny, but I really don't think he's going to be able to fix this. He needs to start over to at least some degree. He needs at least one rebuilding year to see what he has in his youth, because with the way the FA market is, in order to just put average veteran players on the field it is going to cost upwards of $80-90mil per season.

You have to figure, the going rate on the market is something like:

Corner OF: $8mil+
CF: $7mil+
MIF: $4mil+
1B: $10mil+
3B: $10mil+
Ace: $18mil
#2 starter: $13mil+
#3 starter: $10mil+
#4 starter: $7mil+
Decent Reliever: $3mil+

I mean just putting a veteran .500 team on the field costs a ton of money. The Sox need to get enough productive young players that it allows them to spend on the higher classes of talent out there. Right now they don't have that and with the way the market is today, if the Sox try to spot-patch this thing they are going to inevitably get handcuffed by another Contreras-like contract or two. I hope Kenny works out something but I just don't see 2008 being anything better than a 85 win season. We have a ton of work to do.


This is why I keep spouting the argument that the Sox need to seriously invest in scouting and development. They really don't want to spend premium money on FA talent nor do they want to develop players, and in former market history, they could put a respectable team on the field. Those days are gone for awhile, and they need to be honest about their shortcomings. We'll see what happens in the offseason, but I think 2009-10 are more realistic barometers than 2008.

ondafarm
09-16-2007, 09:58 PM
What's "godo talent" ?

Frontman
09-16-2007, 10:13 PM
Well, let's see

Garland
Buehrle
Vazquez
Jenks
Konerko
Dye
Pierzynksi
Logan
Erstad (as a bench player)

that's only 1/3rd of the way there. While I agree that we're closer than the record shows, we certainly have some work to get done before Opening Day 2008.

A. Cavatica
09-16-2007, 10:27 PM
He also built all the injuries which have forced the team, since May, to use primarily AAA and bench players as starters.

Yeah, who would have ever thought Crede, Thome, Pods, and Erstad might get hurt?

oeo
09-16-2007, 11:05 PM
Anyone who thinks this team is close (other than to being the worse team in baseball) is in serious denial.

Or maybe those who don't think we're close, have no idea what they're talking about (ding! ding! ding!). Look at the team...I'll put money on Thome, Pierzynski, Paulie, and Dye not having one of the worst years of their careers all in the same year again.

A. Cavatica
09-16-2007, 11:08 PM
Or maybe those who don't think we're close, have no idea what they're talking about (ding! ding! ding!). Look at the team...I'll put money on Thome, Pierzynski, Paulie, and Dye not having one of the worst years of their careers all in the same year again.

I'll take your bet, and the year I pick is 2018.

JB98
09-17-2007, 01:02 AM
As I've posted previously, I think we have eight good players to build around, four position players and four pitchers.

Thome, Paulie, Dye and AJ. That's the core of your lineup. I expect better years from all four next year. Crede is a question mark, but I assume he's a fifth piece. Can we stomach Fields in LF? If so, that's six. KW needs to rebuild us up the middle. We need a 2B, a SS and a CF. One of those guys needs to hit leadoff.

Buehrle, Gar, Javy and Jenks. There's the core of your pitching staff. We've got to find some way to get rid of Grandpa Contreras. Thanks for 2005, Jose, but your late-season surge is fools' gold. What do we do about the back of this rotation? Danks is OK as a No. 5 for next year, but Gavin Floyd can't be the No. 4 if we're going to win. I think Floyd can fill one of the holes in our bullpen. Wassermann has pitched his way on to the 2008 roster, IMO. After that, what do you do? I assume Logan stays because he's young and useful as a LOOGY if nothing else. Thornton? MacDougal? Tough decisions there, especially with the contracts those guys have. Do we think they can bounce back? Can we unload them? I don't know.

Frater Perdurabo
09-17-2007, 06:16 AM
As I've posted previously, I think we have eight good players to build around, four position players and four pitchers.

Thome, Paulie, Dye and AJ. That's the core of your lineup. I expect better years from all four next year. Crede is a question mark, but I assume he's a fifth piece. Can we stomach Fields in LF? If so, that's six. KW needs to rebuild us up the middle. We need a 2B, a SS and a CF. One of those guys needs to hit leadoff.

Buehrle, Gar, Javy and Jenks. There's the core of your pitching staff. We've got to find some way to get rid of Grandpa Contreras. Thanks for 2005, Jose, but your late-season surge is fools' gold. What do we do about the back of this rotation? Danks is OK as a No. 5 for next year, but Gavin Floyd can't be the No. 4 if we're going to win. I think Floyd can fill one of the holes in our bullpen. Wassermann has pitched his way on to the 2008 roster, IMO. After that, what do you do? I assume Logan stays because he's young and useful as a LOOGY if nothing else. Thornton? MacDougal? Tough decisions there, especially with the contracts those guys have. Do we think they can bounce back? Can we unload them? I don't know.

Agreed, but I think Richar is the goods at 2B and that Thornton and MacDougal both will be in the pen (due to their contracts), with at least one of them pitching better next year. That leaves the #4 starter, one bullpen spot, the bench, and CF and SS, one of whom must be able to lead off. I can tolerate EITHER Uribe OR Anderson just for their glove, provided that a quality leadoff hitter who also plays good defense is acquired to fill the other position.

harwar
09-17-2007, 06:43 AM
I'll put money on Thome, Pierzynski, Paulie, and Dye not having one of the worst years of their careers all in the same year again.
Yes,several players having career worst years at the same time,key injuries,several rookies,and just plain bad luck have plagued the White Sox all year.I probably watch more baseball on television than anyone,and the tv crews from around America are all saying the same thing."I can't believe the White Sox have the record that they have with all that talent.It doesn't make any sense."

spiffie
09-17-2007, 12:55 PM
Or maybe those who don't think we're close, have no idea what they're talking about (ding! ding! ding!). Look at the team...I'll put money on Thome, Pierzynski, Paulie, and Dye not having one of the worst years of their careers all in the same year again.
Yes, they performed below their averages, but you keep saying this like they absolutely imploded this year and all hit .150 or something.

Konerko is actually at his career averages in OBP and SLG this year. He averages 33 HR/162 games his whole career, and this year he's on a pace for 34HR/162G. The only thing he's really much lower in is AVG, at 264, with a career AVG of 281.

Thome is going to be 38 next season. I would not be looking for him to improve too much on this year. Look at his numbers in the 2nd half of last year and they track much the same as this year. 2nd half 2006: 274/420/522, this year 268/402/520. So a few less walks, but otherwise he's been basically doing this since the All-Star break of 2006.

AJ I expect to improve. Hopefully with a fully healthy Toby Hall he will not only get more rest, but he will get more favorable matchups to play against. But even if AJ improves to his career norms, that's only the difference between a guy hitting 262/311/406 moving up to 285/328/431. That will help, but it's not going to drastically alter the Sox offense.

Dye is an interesting case. In 2006 he did have an insanely good year, hitting 315/385/622 with 44HR. However, since his big year in 2000 he has played in over 125 games in all seasons but 2003. His numbers are:

2001: 282/346/467, 26HR
2002: 252/333/459, 24HR
2004: 265/329/464, 23HR
2005: 274/333/512, 31HR
2007: 251/315/484, 26HR

Outside of his one mammoth year in 2006 he's had 2854 PA's since 2001 and put up a line of 266/332/477. Now, I don't discount what he's done in his best years. But if you're looking ahead to 2008, which Jermaine Dye are you expecting to get, the guy who has done basically the same thing 5 out of the last 6 years, or the 2006 guy? If the Dye of 2006 shows up he is a massive improvement that changes things drastically. Otherwise, while an improvement on this year, the Dye who has shown up most years this decade helps, but doesn't really make that big a difference.

oeo
09-17-2007, 01:24 PM
Yes, they performed below their averages, but you keep saying this like they absolutely imploded this year and all hit .150 or something.

Konerko is actually at his career averages in OBP and SLG this year. He averages 33 HR/162 games his whole career, and this year he's on a pace for 34HR/162G. The only thing he's really much lower in is AVG, at 264, with a career AVG of 281.

Thome is going to be 38 next season. I would not be looking for him to improve too much on this year. Look at his numbers in the 2nd half of last year and they track much the same as this year. 2nd half 2006: 274/420/522, this year 268/402/520. So a few less walks, but otherwise he's been basically doing this since the All-Star break of 2006.

AJ I expect to improve. Hopefully with a fully healthy Toby Hall he will not only get more rest, but he will get more favorable matchups to play against. But even if AJ improves to his career norms, that's only the difference between a guy hitting 262/311/406 moving up to 285/328/431. That will help, but it's not going to drastically alter the Sox offense.

Dye is an interesting case. In 2006 he did have an insanely good year, hitting 315/385/622 with 44HR. However, since his big year in 2000 he has played in over 125 games in all seasons but 2003. His numbers are:

2001: 282/346/467, 26HR
2002: 252/333/459, 24HR
2004: 265/329/464, 23HR
2005: 274/333/512, 31HR
2007: 251/315/484, 26HR

Outside of his one mammoth year in 2006 he's had 2854 PA's since 2001 and put up a line of 266/332/477. Now, I don't discount what he's done in his best years. But if you're looking ahead to 2008, which Jermaine Dye are you expecting to get, the guy who has done basically the same thing 5 out of the last 6 years, or the 2006 guy? If the Dye of 2006 shows up he is a massive improvement that changes things drastically. Otherwise, while an improvement on this year, the Dye who has shown up most years this decade helps, but doesn't really make that big a difference.

Uhm...did you miss the first half of the season (when we dug the hole), when all those guys (except Thome) were hitting .220 or below? They were that bad for half the season. Konerko was dreadful until he had a mammoth June, and even since then he hasn't been himself. Dye was absolutely awful until the second half, and Pierzynski has been up and down all year, but this is a guy that can hit close to .300...his average is currently way down from what he can do.

Add in that we've been without our starting 3B (who can put up 20-25 HR and hit about .260), and we don't look so bad.

infohawk
09-17-2007, 01:26 PM
The Sox certainly have flaws, specifically the bullpen, team speed and situational hitting. I do agree with KW that too many good hitters just had bad years at the same time. The team's flaws would still have kept us out of the playoffs, but I completely agree that the team is NOT as bad as it has looked this year. They don't need to "blow it up." That said, the Sox have some very real needs to fill if they hope to contend next year and not hover around third place. The biggest needs (in my opinion) are the bullpen and a new shortstop who can bring more offensive consistency than Uribe. The changes we do need can be accomplished, but KW has to be on his game this offseason.

infohawk
09-17-2007, 01:34 PM
Thornton? MacDougal? Tough decisions there, especially with the contracts those guys have. Do we think they can bounce back? Can we unload them? I don't know.
I really like MacDougal for his upside, but I am having serious qualms about keeping him around. I know his "stuff" is fantastic, but he makes me grab for an antacid everytime he comes in the game. Which MacDougal will it be? The lights out one or the walk machine? I just don't think he can be counted on.

veeter
09-17-2007, 01:53 PM
"IF" Joe Crede comes back healthy, the Sox are a lot better without adding anyone.

spiffie
09-17-2007, 02:04 PM
Uhm...did you miss the first half of the season (when we dug the hole), when all those guys (except Thome) were hitting .220 or below? They were that bad for half the season. Konerko was dreadful until he had a mammoth June, and even since then he hasn't been himself. Dye was absolutely awful until the second half, and Pierzynski has been up and down all year, but this is a guy that can hit close to .300...his average is currently way down from what he can do.

Add in that we've been without our starting 3B (who can put up 20-25 HR and hit about .260), and we don't look so bad.
I certainly saw it in gory detail. The problem is that that sort of production isn't foreign to this team. Konerko's ability to have random slumps is well known to everyone. We've all seen AJ get into those runs where he looks like crap at the plate. The problem is the assumption we need to accept in order to assume this team is right there for contending goes from:

"they all hit below their averages and had their worst years ever, they'll be better next year" to "they will all be as consistent as they are at their best next year."

Of course, AJ didn't even have that 3-month stretch of awful. His BA this year by month:
April - 213
May - 299
June - 247
July - 298
Aug - 241
Sep - 293

Hell, this year he hasn't had a 2 month stretch this year as bad as he had last year in Aug/Sept, when he hit 247 over the last 2 months.

As for Dye, yes, he was terrible early this year, but even at his best he's prone to bad months running out of nowhere. His BA dropped 100 points between August and Sept. last year. It dropped 60 points from April to May last year. Yes, it hurt the Sox that Konerko and Dye were cold the first half of this year. And the lack of a truly healthy Crede was damaging. However, Even if we got what could be reasonably expected from the Big Four we still would have been in trouble this year. Next year we're hoping that:
-Konerko doesn't have a cold streak
-Thome at 38 improves his production from the last 18 months
-Crede comes back 100% from back surgery
-Dye doesn't have any injury concerns
-AJ doesn't begin to wear down from the grind of catching.

Any one of those things strikes me as a reasonable chance. But the Sox are going to be flipping the coin 5 times and hoping it comes up heads at least 4 times. And they need to figure out CF. And they need to figure out SS. And then after that hoping to rebuild the bullpen and hope for a 4th starter spot to get filled and hope that Danks improves.

But hey, if that sounds like they're right on the verge of contending that's cool. I personally think the odds are against it. I don't ever count Kenny Williams out. If there's anyone with the aggression and fearlessness needed to rebuild this team on the fly its him. But right now I'm glad I don't have his job, because I certainly don't know how the hell to do it.

soxinem1
09-17-2007, 02:19 PM
Bullpen, SS, 2B, and CF need to be upgraded. I am not sold on Richar defensively and am not fooled by Uribe's annual 'September Awakening'.

Bear in mind that in 2005:

AJ hit .257, nearly 30 points lower than his career average.

Dye had 86 RBI's, the lowest number in a full season from a Sox regular RF since Ordonez had 65 in 1998.

They needed three closers to finish the season.

The starting LF had 25 RBI's and 23 CS.

El Duque was useless from mid-July until the last three weeks of the season when he only pitched in relief.

Rowand, Uribe, AJ, and Pods had less productive season than they did the year before.

In other words, someone else picked up the slack when other were either hurt, slowing down, or ineffective. That was more the mentality of that team. And only time will tell if any new players will bring that type of mentality back, because it has been missing since then.

The first half of the 2006 team had almost everyone hitting like gangbusters, then, except for Dye, all sort of shut it down in the second half.

But as a core, it was pitching, defense, and scoring runs when necessary that propelled that team to the top. It is that formula that is needed to get back there.

mwc44
09-17-2007, 02:20 PM
Here are Williams comments:

General manager Ken Williams gave a fairly expansive "state of the White Sox" interview on WSCR-AM 670, the team's flagship radio station, before the game. He acknowledged that changes were coming over the winter but insisted the Sox "are a better team than what we've played" and cited starting pitching depth and the middle of the batting order as strengths.

"I would never have envisioned us being at or near the bottom in as many hitting categories as we are," Williams said.



That quote doesn't bode well for a much liked, yet much maligned member of the coaching staff.

dickallen15
09-17-2007, 03:13 PM
That quote doesn't bode well for a much liked, yet much maligned member of the coaching staff.

Walker will not get fired, that is a certainty.

mwc44
09-17-2007, 03:55 PM
Walker will not get fired, that is a certainty.
I hope you are 100% correct on that one.

CLR01
09-17-2007, 04:05 PM
I hope you are 100% correct on that one.

AMEN! We wouldn't want to lose a man of such great talent.

munchman33
09-17-2007, 04:06 PM
I think the bullpen has sorted many of the spots out, in a lot of ways. There are worse options than going into next season with the six starters we have now. And the middle of the order really is fine.

One more really good arm in the pen would really go a long way. And let's get more production from SS. Then, put a healthy Crede at third. One of Owens and Richar should make the team. Probably Richar. The other spot should be addressed in free agency. Maybe trade for a starter if we can, and send one out to address SS. Don't trade Garland. You won't get enough value back.

We'll still need a lot to go right to win the division next year. The Indians are young and improving. The Tigers will be right back there. The Twins will have Santana again, and probably have Santana-lite back and pitching well too.

NorthSideSox72
09-17-2007, 05:43 PM
Apparently Kenny Williams had a long talk with WSCR radio before last night's game and made some interesting comments as reported by Dan McGrath in the Tribune today.

Keep these comments in context with Paul Laduwski's column in the Daily Southtown I linked to a few days ago. That column quoted Sox organizational members as stating the discussion now centered around how much of an overhaul is needed this off season with some still thinking the Sox are "close."

Here are Williams comments:

General manager Ken Williams gave a fairly expansive "state of the White Sox" interview on WSCR-AM 670, the team's flagship radio station, before the game. He acknowledged that changes were coming over the winter but insisted the Sox "are a better team than what we've played" and cited starting pitching depth and the middle of the batting order as strengths.

"I would never have envisioned us being at or near the bottom in as many hitting categories as we are," Williams said.

Here again is the link to the Southtown column:

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/sports/ladewski/557537,141LAD1.article

At this point in time I can't figure out what 'camp' Kenny is in. I continue to hope major changes will be made this off season to an awfull bullpen, the back end of the rotation, and the top two and bottom two spots in the lineup.

We'll see.

Lip

I'd suggest that (bolded) is exactly what KW was going for.

My strong guess though is somewhere in the vicinity of 8 to 10 new bodies on Opening Day 2008 versus Opening Day 2007. Take away that some of those (Fields, Richar, Owens, Wassermann) are already with the team as changes during 2007, and I'd still say another 4 to 6 changed faces on the 25 man roster in addition to those four newbies.

JB98
09-17-2007, 05:53 PM
Agreed, but I think Richar is the goods at 2B and that Thornton and MacDougal both will be in the pen (due to their contracts), with at least one of them pitching better next year. That leaves the #4 starter, one bullpen spot, the bench, and CF and SS, one of whom must be able to lead off. I can tolerate EITHER Uribe OR Anderson just for their glove, provided that a quality leadoff hitter who also plays good defense is acquired to fill the other position.

You're sold on Richar? I'm wavering. He had a good homestand, but I'm not convinced that he can be the starting 2B on a pennant contender next year. I suppose it's OK as long as we upgrade both SS and CF significantly. If either Uribe or Anderson is starting next year, then we probably need someone else for 2B. I can tolerate one question mark batting ninth. I don't want eight AND nine in the order to become a sinkhole again.

upperdeckusc
09-17-2007, 06:44 PM
You're sold on Richar? I'm wavering. He had a good homestand, but I'm not convinced that he can be the starting 2B on a pennant contender next year. I suppose it's OK as long as we upgrade both SS and CF significantly. If either Uribe or Anderson is starting next year, then we probably need someone else for 2B. I can tolerate one question mark batting ninth. I don't want eight AND nine in the order to become a sinkhole again.

i feel confident in saying that theres no chance in hell either of those guys will be starting for us in '08. i wouldn't be surprised if we saw a trade where we shop one or a few of our young decently talented 2b's (getz, bourgeois, shelby, etc). i dunno what we could get for them, maybe a possible bullpen arm? i'd really like to trade cintron for a bag of balls and have bourgeois take his spot as the UTIL infielder along with ozuna. if we weren't contending next yr, i wouldnt mind seeing richar at SS and bourgeois at 2b, but to find out if richar can hack it at SS and if bourgeois can excel in the bigs, but that aint happening.

kevin57
09-17-2007, 09:39 PM
I'm not too worried about whether to keep a couple guys like Richar so long as their defense more than makes up for their low BA's. What's wrong this year is that EVERYONE's average sucks...in addition to horrific relief work.

Kenny says nothing about a remarkable lack of speed in this lineup. Our squad is like a bunch of Sherman Tanks rolling around the basepads. Some speed, please.:angry:

kaufsox
09-17-2007, 10:21 PM
I'm not too worried about whether to keep a couple guys like Richar so long as their defense more than makes up for their low BA's. What's wrong this year is that EVERYONE's average sucks...in addition to horrific relief work.

Kenny says nothing about a remarkable lack of speed in this lineup. Our squad is like a bunch of Sherman Tanks rolling around the basepads. Some speed, please.:angry:

Which is why I have some faith left in KW. I think he is going to shake things up more than we realize, ala post 2004. My guess is that one or more of the four names bandied about (Paulie, AJ, Thome, Dye) are going to be gone before opening day 2008. I'm not necessarily wishing for it, but Williams is willing to do something like that in order to make his team better.

GoSox2K3
09-17-2007, 10:25 PM
I certainly saw it in gory detail. The problem is that that sort of production isn't foreign to this team. Konerko's ability to have random slumps is well known to everyone. We've all seen AJ get into those runs where he looks like crap at the plate. The problem is the assumption we need to accept in order to assume this team is right there for contending goes from:

"they all hit below their averages and had their worst years ever, they'll be better next year" to "they will all be as consistent as they are at their best next year."

Of course, AJ didn't even have that 3-month stretch of awful. His BA this year by month:
April - 213
May - 299
June - 247
July - 298
Aug - 241
Sep - 293

Hell, this year he hasn't had a 2 month stretch this year as bad as he had last year in Aug/Sept, when he hit 247 over the last 2 months.

As for Dye, yes, he was terrible early this year, but even at his best he's prone to bad months running out of nowhere. His BA dropped 100 points between August and Sept. last year. It dropped 60 points from April to May last year. Yes, it hurt the Sox that Konerko and Dye were cold the first half of this year. And the lack of a truly healthy Crede was damaging. However, Even if we got what could be reasonably expected from the Big Four we still would have been in trouble this year. Next year we're hoping that:
-Konerko doesn't have a cold streak
-Thome at 38 improves his production from the last 18 months
-Crede comes back 100% from back surgery
-Dye doesn't have any injury concerns
-AJ doesn't begin to wear down from the grind of catching.

Any one of those things strikes me as a reasonable chance. But the Sox are going to be flipping the coin 5 times and hoping it comes up heads at least 4 times. And they need to figure out CF. And they need to figure out SS. And then after that hoping to rebuild the bullpen and hope for a 4th starter spot to get filled and hope that Danks improves.

But hey, if that sounds like they're right on the verge of contending that's cool. I personally think the odds are against it. I don't ever count Kenny Williams out. If there's anyone with the aggression and fearlessness needed to rebuild this team on the fly its him. But right now I'm glad I don't have his job, because I certainly don't know how the hell to do it.

So, what is your point? That the Sox, in addition to holes in CF, SS, and bullpen, should go out and acquire players at most of the 5 other positions you mentioned above who are better than our current players? If so, how do you suggest we pull that off?

What do you want KW to say publicly? "We believe that PK, Dye, Thome, and AJ are all going to hit .250 next year and that Crede is finished"?

Grzegorz
09-18-2007, 04:38 AM
AMEN! We wouldn't want to lose a man of such great talent.

Does Walker get credit for Dye's turnaround? Does Walker get credit for PK, Fields, or Richar?

Most folks are looking for a scapegoat. Sorry, though it's convenient it is also very wrong.

Frater Perdurabo
09-18-2007, 06:10 AM
You're sold on Richar? I'm wavering. He had a good homestand, but I'm not convinced that he can be the starting 2B on a pennant contender next year. I suppose it's OK as long as we upgrade both SS and CF significantly. If either Uribe or Anderson is starting next year, then we probably need someone else for 2B. I can tolerate one question mark batting ninth. I don't want eight AND nine in the order to become a sinkhole again.

If Richar was a veteran and put up the numbers he's producing, of course the Sox would need to upgrade. But I think he's going to improve on offense, and his defense already is quite solid. Not only do I think Richar is the starting 2B in 2008, but I also think he's the #2 hitter.

JB98
09-18-2007, 04:14 PM
If Richar was a veteran and put up the numbers he's producing, of course the Sox would need to upgrade. But I think he's going to improve on offense, and his defense already is quite solid. Not only do I think Richar is the starting 2B in 2008, but I also think he's the #2 hitter.

Since we're not entirely sure about Richar, I'd be OK with him as the starting 2B only if he were considered the weakest link. If he's in the lineup every day along with Uribe/Anderson/Owens, I'm concerned.

If Danny is our biggest question mark, I'll go into 2008 optimistic.

KyWhiSoxFan
09-18-2007, 06:48 PM
Agreed, but I think Richar is the goods at 2B and that Thornton and MacDougal both will be in the pen (due to their contracts), with at least one of them pitching better next year. That leaves the #4 starter, one bullpen spot, the bench, and CF and SS, one of whom must be able to lead off. I can tolerate EITHER Uribe OR Anderson just for their glove, provided that a quality leadoff hitter who also plays good defense is acquired to fill the other position.

I could live with Richar opening up the 2008 season as a starter next year as long as the Sox fill the other gaping holes, like CF and SS, among others .... but if Thornton and (especially) MacDougal are on the team next year the bullpen will not be any better than it is this year. If Thornton is the second lefty out of the pen, maybe. But I don't want to see that eratic, unreliable MacDougal on the team anymore. He has been a disappointment ever since he was the closer with KC. He's still the same player.

UserNameBlank
09-18-2007, 07:18 PM
i feel confident in saying that theres no chance in hell either of those guys will be starting for us in '08. i wouldn't be surprised if we saw a trade where we shop one or a few of our young decently talented 2b's (getz, bourgeois, shelby, etc). i dunno what we could get for them, maybe a possible bullpen arm? i'd really like to trade cintron for a bag of balls and have bourgeois take his spot as the UTIL infielder along with ozuna. if we weren't contending next yr, i wouldnt mind seeing richar at SS and bourgeois at 2b, but to find out if richar can hack it at SS and if bourgeois can excel in the bigs, but that aint happening.
There would be no reason to trade Getz or Shelby. For what little we'd probably get for them we're better off keeping them. Besides, MIF depth is not something we should be depleting right now. Bourgeois has to have a shot at making the team as a backup next year. Cintron will almost certainly be non-tendered. If we didn't want to pay the more valuable Mackowiak there is no way we're paying Alex.

Richar is comfortable at 2B. We should keep him there and worry about getting a SS.

UserNameBlank
09-18-2007, 07:25 PM
I could live with Richar opening up the 2008 season as a starter next year as long as the Sox fill the other gaping holes, like CF and SS, among others .... but if Thornton and (especially) MacDougal are on the team next year the bullpen will not be any better than it is this year. If Thornton is the second lefty out of the pen, maybe. But I don't want to see that eratic, unreliable MacDougal on the team anymore. He has been a disappointment ever since he was the closer with KC. He's still the same player.
How can you be so sure about that?

How many people were considering Thornton and MacDougal locks for above average to great seasons before this year? As is common with all relievers, they can get back to their 2006 forms next year and our pen would be entirely different. You just don't know what they'll do. I'd say players with arms and previous success like Thornton and MacDougal, there's probably about a 50/50 chance they have plus seasons next year.

Medford Bobby
09-18-2007, 07:34 PM
User:

At this point in time I'd be very satisfied with 85 wins. It looks a hell of a lot better then 75.

Lip

:D:And put some FUN back in White Sox baseball. I always look back at the 1990 season as team that played hungry and looked liked they had fun doing so.....

soxwon
09-18-2007, 07:51 PM
I would say we positively will get HUnter for CF.
Excellent chance for Eckstein for 2b.

Hunter
Eckstein
Dye
Thome
Konerko
Crede
Fields
Richar
Pierzynski

Thats a hell of a lineup.

Dump garland, get a kenny rogers type starter.
Add Mariano Rivera, one more setup guy
A division winner.Its simple.

TheCommander
09-18-2007, 08:03 PM
I would say we positively will get HUnter for CF.
Excellent chance for Eckstein for 2b.

Hunter
Eckstein
Dye
Thome
Konerko
Crede
Fields
Richar
Pierzynski

Thats a hell of a lineup.

Dump garland, get a kenny rogers type starter.
Add Mariano Rivera, one more setup guy
A division winner.Its simple.

Perhaps you forgot to use some of THIS?

Frater Perdurabo
09-18-2007, 08:16 PM
Since we're not entirely sure about Richar, I'd be OK with him as the starting 2B only if he were considered the weakest link. If he's in the lineup everyday along with Uribe/Anderson/Owens, I'm concerned.

If Danny is our biggest question mark, I'll go into 2008 optimistic.

I could live with Richar opening up the 2008 season as a starter next year as long as the Sox fill the other gaping holes, like CF and SS, among others .... but if Thornton and (especially) MacDougal are on the team next year the bullpen will not be any better than it is this year. If Thornton is the second lefty out of the pen, maybe. But I don't want to see that eratic, unreliable MacDougal on the team anymore. He has been a disappointment ever since he was the closer with KC. He's still the same player.

I'm OK with two "question marks" in the 8-9 lineup spots if there is great defense at SS and CF.

For example, if the Sox were to get a leadoff-hitting SS like Furcal and Rowand/Hunter in left, I'd be OK with Richar and Anderson starting.

Alternatively, I'd be OK with Owens in LF and Richar at 2B if the Sox found a leadoff hitter and a #2 hitter to play SS and CF.

Or, I'd be OK with Richar at 2B and Uribe at SS if CF and LF were filled with talented vets, one of whom could lead off.

The bullpen is a separate issue. It's almost always a crapshoot. Unless the Sox can budget enough money to sign veteran starters and closers to fill middle relief spots, it's going to be populated with career middle relievers. And career middle relievers are, by definition, erratic and inconsistent; they are not good enough to be starters or closers!

California Sox
09-18-2007, 08:38 PM
i wouldn't be surprised if we saw a trade where we shop one or a few of our young decently talented 2b's (getz, bourgeois, shelby, etc). i dunno what we could get for them, maybe a possible bullpen arm?

Shelby switched to cf midway through the season.

KyWhiSoxFan
09-18-2007, 09:45 PM
How can you be so sure about that?

How many people were considering Thornton and MacDougal locks for above average to great seasons before this year? As is common with all relievers, they can get back to their 2006 forms next year and our pen would be entirely different. You just don't know what they'll do. I'd say players with arms and previous success like Thornton and MacDougal, there's probably about a 50/50 chance they have plus seasons next year.


MacDougal has been a wreck his entire career. You can't rely on him. And how can anyone have confidence that MacDougal will be better next year than this year when he has been so erratic start to start his entire career, never mind season to season. I really on't want to see him back next year.

UserNameBlank
09-19-2007, 01:49 PM
MacDougal has been a wreck his entire career. You can't rely on him. And how can anyone have confidence that MacDougal will be better next year than this year when he has been so erratic start to start his entire career, never mind season to season. I really on't want to see him back next year.
He usually has good years after getting hurt.

You can't deny what the guy can do when he's healthy. If we dealt him before the start of the '08 season we probably wouldn't get a whole lot, and we certainly wouldn't get what he's worth in a good season. If he has another year next year like he did in '06 then we should deal him either at the break or over the next offseason. He has too much talent to just give up for nothing.

Now if we were looking at the '08 Sox as some kind of juggernaut with legitimate World Series hopes then I think you can justify dumping him, but we have a lot of work to do and we most likely aren't going to finish in the top two of our own division next year. We should hold on to our tradeable assets and look to get maximum value out of them. For Mike that means keeping him until at least sometime around June '08.

Lip Man 1
09-19-2007, 02:25 PM
It does seem on paper that the Sox have so many legit areas of need or are relying on guys to make comebacks that they probably don't have much of a chance next season.

Stranger things have happened though which is why this off season is so vitally important for the next three to five years.

Kenny has to be pro-active, Kenny has to take some risks, Kenny has to get lucky...what Kenny and the front office can't do, in my opinion, is sit back and bring back most of this club in 2008.

If he does the odds are tremendously against him, especially in this division.

Lip

chisoxmike
09-19-2007, 02:35 PM
Remember the 04-05 offseason, Kenny filled ALL the holes on the team. And there were a ton; Two catchers, 2B, LF, RF, 5th starter, & added two bullpen arms.

It will be interesting to see if he does it again. It wouldn't surprise me to see Richar as our 2B next year. I think you could live with that, ONLY if he's the only question mark. Fields in left is a awful idea. He's a third basemen, if Crede is going to start next season, I think they should put Fields on the bench as Crede's backup. But thats one man's opinion. :redneck

Who they should go after, I don't know...

palehozenychicty
09-19-2007, 03:18 PM
Remember the 04-05 offseason, Kenny filled ALL the holes on the team. And there were a ton; Two catchers, 2B, LF, RF, 5th starter, & added two bullpen arms.

It will be interesting to see if he does it again. It wouldn't surprise me to see Richar as our 2B next year. I think you could live with that, ONLY if he's the only question mark. Fields in left is a awful idea. He's a third basemen, if Crede is going to start next season, I think they should put Fields on the bench as Crede's backup. But thats one man's opinion. :redneck

Who they should go after, I don't know...


Fields ain't riding the bench next year. I know that much.

KyWhiSoxFan
09-19-2007, 08:51 PM
Fields ain't riding the bench next year. I know that much.

And you have to find a regular place for him. If he can play a corner, first base has to be considered as an option.

Fields is hitting the same amount of homers per number of at bats as Konerko (Fields would have 30 compared to 29 for Paulie if he had batted as many times as Paulie and hit them at the same pace) and Fields is way ahead on Konerko in RBIs per at bat while hitting in a far less advantageous spot all year than Paulie. Fields would have 95 RBIs if he had batted the same number of times as Konerko (he has 63 in 340 at bats going into today's game) while Paulie has 81 while hitting cleanup all year.

With Konerko making $12-million, you have to start thinking of what he could bring in a trade, particularly if he can yield a SS or CF.

Frater Perdurabo
09-19-2007, 09:04 PM
And you have to find a regular place for him. If he can play a corner, first base has to be considered as an option.

Fields is hitting the same amount of homers per number of at bats as Konerko (Fields would have 30 compared to 29 for Paulie if he had batted as many times as Paulie and hit them at the same pace) and Fields is way ahead on Konerko in RBIs per at bat while hitting in a far less advantageous spot all year than Paulie. Fields would have 95 RBIs if he had batted the same number of times as Konerko (he has 63 in 340 at bats going into today's game) while Paulie has 81 while hitting cleanup all year.

With Konerko making $12-million, you have to start thinking of what he could bring in a trade, particularly if he can yield a SS or CF.

Great points. If Fields can maintain the XBH, HR and RBI numbers while boosting his batting average above .260, I think he would make Paulie completely expendable.

Grzegorz
09-19-2007, 09:31 PM
Great points. If Fields can maintain the XBH, HR and RBI numbers while boosting his batting average above .260, I think he would make Paulie completely expendable.

That's one helluva if there buddy.

Frater Perdurabo
09-20-2007, 06:21 AM
That's one helluva if there buddy.

The guy is a rookie. He's already showing uncommon power for a rookie. I think it's entirely probable that he starts striking out less and hitting the ball more and walking more.

SBSoxFan
09-20-2007, 09:12 AM
The guy is a rookie. He's already showing uncommon power for a rookie. I think it's entirely probable that he starts striking out less and hitting the ball more and walking more.

Can he play 1B? You're talking about moving him to a third defensive position in less than a year; that can't be good for his offense nor his defense.

Randar68
09-20-2007, 10:25 AM
Apparently Kenny Williams had a long talk with WSCR radio before last night's game and made some interesting comments as reported by Dan McGrath in the Tribune today.

Keep these comments in context with Paul Laduwski's column in the Daily Southtown I linked to a few days ago. That column quoted Sox organizational members as stating the discussion now centered around how much of an overhaul is needed this off season with some still thinking the Sox are "close."

Here are Williams comments:

General manager Ken Williams gave a fairly expansive "state of the White Sox" interview on WSCR-AM 670, the team's flagship radio station, before the game. He acknowledged that changes were coming over the winter but insisted the Sox "are a better team than what we've played" and cited starting pitching depth and the middle of the batting order as strengths.

"I would never have envisioned us being at or near the bottom in as many hitting categories as we are," Williams said.

Here again is the link to the Southtown column:

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/sports/ladewski/557537,141LAD1.article

At this point in time I can't figure out what 'camp' Kenny is in. I continue to hope major changes will be made this off season to an awfull bullpen, the back end of the rotation, and the top two and bottom two spots in the lineup.

We'll see.

Lip

They are obviously still close, IMO. But what does that mean? I don't think the heart of the order is a problem, even though that group as a whole struggled much more than anyone expected. I think the top and lower 3rd of the order have been the biggest problems.

Uribe has to be gone, IMO. Richar has shown some things, but his hitting has been anything but confidence-building in terms of thinking he is the answer. Jerry Owens the same Do they bring Crede back if he's healthy? I would think so.

So, that leaves you with questions at CF, SS, 2B. That's your "defense up the middle". The heart of your defense! Yikes.

Ok, so on to pitching. I think the rotation is fine, they have 6 options for 5 spots, IMO, although some might be old or young (take your pick). The real question lies in "how do you fix a totally ****ed-up bullpen?" Outside of Jenks, nobody performed when it counted enough to be given a spot on next year's team. Williams has to go back out and find guys who are pitchers, not throwers. I don't know that those guys exist within the organization that are ready to help now, but a big part of his "rebuilding" will be the bullpen.

3 major question marks in the heart of your defense, and a gaping hole at the top of the batting order plus the bullpen issues?

No simple fix here. Going to take some major FA signings and trades to address all those holes.

Flight #24
09-20-2007, 11:31 AM
After batting .195 in August, Richar's batting .310 in September. Small sample size and all, but a rookie batting .242 who's also shown improvement within that overall average seems like a decent shot to me to be a regular.

In the grand scheme of things, given the various needs of the team, I don't think 2B is going to be one to expend significant resources to address. Bullpen-SS-CF in that order, IMO. And you can look at SS-CF as a combined entity (i.e. if you make a huge improvement on one you can skimp somewhat on the other). They have some viable options for CF internally (Anderson, Sweeney, Owens - all of whom at least have the potential to be productive), but have none for SS which to me makes that a more critical need.

Madscout
09-20-2007, 12:56 PM
They are obviously still close, IMO. But what So, that leaves you with questions at CF, SS, 2B. That's your "defense up the middle". The heart of your defense! Yikes.

We have a CF, Brian Anderson, that is only a question mark in his bat, not his D, and he wouldn't cost a thing. Get a speedy Shortstop like Furcal or Eckstien, Richar will improve, and you have a good upgrade on defense. Ship Pods, a big name in the middle, bring someone who can play LF, and you have yourself a defense.

TomBradley72
09-20-2007, 03:04 PM
We have a CF, Brian Anderson, that is only a question mark in his bat, not his D, and he wouldn't cost a thing. .

But he's a career .216 (416 ABs) hitter in the major leagues and hit .255 at AAA this year...we can't afford THAT big of a question mark...

Randar68
09-20-2007, 03:05 PM
We have a CF, Brian Anderson, that is only a question mark in his bat, not his D, and he wouldn't cost a thing. Get a speedy Shortstop like Furcal or Eckstien, Richar will improve, and you have a good upgrade on defense. Ship Pods, a big name in the middle, bring someone who can play LF, and you have yourself a defense.

Well, based on the move of Fields to LF, I think opening day 2008 will have Crede at 3B, Fields in left.

Randar68
09-20-2007, 03:07 PM
But he's a career .216 (416 ABs) hitter in the major leagues and hit .255 at AAA this year...we can't afford THAT big of a question mark...

And he hit nearly .300 in AAA in his first stint there in a full season. But now he's regressed to .255 in a few injury-plagued months after sitting on his ass for all of April?

Let's not start that debate again. Excuse me if I choose to weight his 1000 other minor league AB's a little more heavily than the AAA AB's he had this year while struggling through several injuries and after spending a month not playing.

Madscout
09-20-2007, 08:50 PM
But he's a career .216 (416 ABs) hitter in the major leagues and hit .255 at AAA this year...we can't afford THAT big of a question mark...

We can if he is given the chance he deserves and comes in as our NUMBER NINE HITTER. He is the new one as Uribe is pretty much gone. He is worth his weight in gold if he just plays D the way he can (which helps our pitchers a ton). His hitting will come around with patience that has been given to Richar, Owens, Fields, etc.

JB98
09-20-2007, 09:05 PM
We can if he is given the chance he deserves and comes in as our NUMBER NINE HITTER. He is the new one as Uribe is pretty much gone. He is worth his weight in gold if he just plays D the way he can (which helps our pitchers a ton). His hitting will come around with patience that has been given to Richar, Owens, Fields, etc.

If Anderson is starting on this team next year, I'll be stunned.

You can't have four players with two years or less of big-league experience out there and expect to contend in this division. Maybe two, and right now, those two would be Fields and Richar.

California Sox
09-21-2007, 07:09 PM
If Anderson is starting on this team next year, I'll be stunned.

You can't have four players with two years or less of big-league experience out there and expect to contend in this division. Maybe two, and right now, those two would be Fields and Richar.

With all the money tied up in the rotation, Konerko, Dye, and Thome, I'd be stunned if the Sox spent big on another outfielder. That said, I think that BA's maturity questions have not been answered and that more than his bat is going to weigh on whether he gets a shot or not.

munchman33
09-21-2007, 07:41 PM
And he hit nearly .300 in AAA in his first stint there in a full season. But now he's regressed to .255 in a few injury-plagued months after sitting on his ass for all of April?

Let's not start that debate again. Excuse me if I choose to weight his 1000 other minor league AB's a little more heavily than the AAA AB's he had this year while struggling through several injuries and after spending a month not playing.

You don't go from being a failure in your first year at the show to having a lowsy, injuried riddled AAA season to starting at the big league level. You have to prove yourself. In more than just next spring training. Sorry, but we'd like to compete next year. Anderson doesn't sniff the starting OF. If he does good in spring, he can be our fourth outfielder.