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Hitmen77
09-11-2007, 11:47 PM
Another craptacular game by the Sox. #1 pick here we come.

Viva Medias B's
09-11-2007, 11:48 PM
Andy Gonzalez make me hide under the covers.

Lip Man 1
09-11-2007, 11:48 PM
You have to give serious pause as to how good the starting pitching will be next season especially if they trade Garland.

Even if he stays the rotation looks shaky.

Lip

Patrick134
09-11-2007, 11:55 PM
You have to give serious pause as to how good the starting pitching will be next season especially if they trade Garland.

Even if he stays the rotation looks shaky.

Lip


Aside from Jose, this years starting was hardly the main problem.

Lip Man 1
09-12-2007, 12:01 AM
Patrick:

But in fact Jose IS starting isn't he?

Danks has looked very, very shaky and if Garland is dealt, you are looking probably at Gio or someone of his ilk.

As Daver said in another thread this is probably not a championship rotation.

Lip

Hitmen77
09-12-2007, 12:01 AM
It's painful to see the stark contrast side-by-side of the Sox vs. the Indians rookies. Carmona, Carbrera, Garko.

This was just a crappy game all-around. All of our runs scored on HRs by a player that shouldn't even be on our team next year. Danks doesn't even make it through the 3rd inning. Thornton and MacDougal looking just great out there.

:bandance:

Tragg
09-12-2007, 12:02 AM
You have to give serious pause as to how good the starting pitching will be next season especially if they trade Garland.

Even if he stays the rotation looks shaky.

Lip

Not nearly as shaky as that offense. Good gracious, is it impotent.
Need a leadoff hitter badly, a RBI guy, and an all around guy who can hit .300 and hit 25 homers and can get around the basis.
AND Thome, Konerko, Dye need to arise from their slumps/off years (however you want to term it).
And then there's the bullpen. MacDougal is quickly veering into that Bukvich territory.
Starting pitching's the bright spot.
At least Broadway's pitched decently.

JB98
09-12-2007, 12:03 AM
I'm trying to figure out what the deal is with Matt Thornton this year. He looked dominant in closing out Saturday's win against the Twins. But tonight, his performance was too pathetic for words.

It's a shame Broadway will be saddled with the loss because he pitched pretty well. Thornton was the one who allowed the game to get out of control.

All year long, you never know what to expect when MacDougal and Thornton come into the game. They might be dominant, or they might leave a big pile of puke on the mound. Tonight was definitely an example of the latter.

chisoxfanatic
09-12-2007, 12:05 AM
Broadway should be our #5 starter next year if we don't get rid of anyone. I'm tired of seeing Danks out there constantly. He's not ready to be a starter on a major league roster at this point.

Patrick134
09-12-2007, 12:06 AM
Patrick:

But in fact Jose IS starting isn't he?

Danks has looked very, very shaky and if Garland is dealt, you are looking probably at Gio or someone of his ilk.

As Daver said in another thread this is probably not a championship rotation.

Lip


Danks was great early, but got zero run support. Now he's pitching deeper into a season than he ever has before. He'll be fine next year.

oeo
09-12-2007, 12:09 AM
Danks should be shut down for the remainder of the year. Give the ball to Broadway or Phillips if you want to keep the 6-man rotation, but he looks fatigued, and there's no reason to keep throwing him out there unless you want him to get hurt.

Tragg
09-12-2007, 12:12 AM
Danks should be shut down for the remainder of the year. Give the ball to Broadway or Phillips if you want to keep the 6-man rotation, but he looks fatigued, and there's no reason to keep throwing him out there unless you want him to get hurt.
It certainly doesn't appear that September action is doing him much good. Be careful with that talent.
Broadway and Phillips - I know it's September, but they've pitched better than the BS the Sox have put up with in Bukvich, Macdougal, Meyers.

itsnotrequired
09-12-2007, 12:15 AM
My WSI black book grows as I meet both Cat Thief AND Brian26 at tonight's game. I have seen the future and it is glorious.

Sig update time...

oeo
09-12-2007, 12:19 AM
Broadway and Phillips - I know it's September, but they've pitched better than the BS the Sox have put up with in Bukvich, Macdougal, Meyers.

It's a very small sample size. Broadway wasn't even successful in Charlotte to end the year. I think it's more of a case no scouting reports than anything.

CHISOXFAN13
09-12-2007, 12:27 AM
Broadway should be our #5 starter next year if we don't get rid of anyone. I'm tired of seeing Danks out there constantly. He's not ready to be a starter on a major league roster at this point.

And Broadway is? He got lit the **** up in AAA.

WhiteSox5187
09-12-2007, 12:28 AM
Danks should be shut down for the remainder of the year. Give the ball to Broadway or Phillips if you want to keep the 6-man rotation, but he looks fatigued, and there's no reason to keep throwing him out there unless you want him to get hurt.
I think the problem with Danks is that he is gassed, and that this team has lost all mental edge. Had we been in the middle of a pennant race this year I think Danks would have done better of late by pitching off of pure adrelainine (forgive my spelling) and guts alone...but this late in September when you're about twenty five games out, no one is running off guts and adrenaline alone.

JB98
09-12-2007, 12:32 AM
Broadway should be our #5 starter next year if we don't get rid of anyone. I'm tired of seeing Danks out there constantly. He's not ready to be a starter on a major league roster at this point.

I think Broadway needs another year in Charlotte. Tonight was a nice performance, but evaluating the season on the whole, it wasn't a particularly good year for Lance. I'm surprised he got a September recall. Hopefully, the experience will help him. If he's in our rotation next year, odds are we'll be buried in the second division again come September 2008.

Parrothead
09-12-2007, 12:35 AM
I think the problem with Danks is that he is gassed, and that this team has lost all mental edge. Had we been in the middle of a pennant race this year I think Danks would have done better of late by pitching off of pure adrelainine (forgive my spelling) and guts alone...but this late in September when you're about twenty five games out, no one is running off guts and adrenaline alone.

I did not watch the game but looking at the stats, I don't think that the problem is that Danks is gased. I think the problem is that Danks is bad. Otherwise known as Danks Stanks!:angry:

JB98
09-12-2007, 12:41 AM
I did not watch the game but looking at the stats, I don't think that the problem is that Danks is gased. I think the problem is that Danks is bad. Otherwise known as Danks Stanks!:angry:

Danks is 22 years old. He was solid his first 15 starts, but his last 11 have not been good. I think Danks is just mentally tired. It's his first year in the big leagues. He's on a terrible club, surrounded by a number of sour veterans.

Way, way too early to give up on him or throw him under the bus. I'd bring him back as the fifth starter again next year.

Parrothead
09-12-2007, 12:44 AM
Danks is 22 years old. He was solid his first 15 starts, but his last 11 have not been good. I think Danks is just mentally tired. It's his first year in the big leagues. He's on a terrible club, surrounded by a number of sour veterans.

Way, way too early to give up on him or throw him under the bus. I'd bring him back as the fifth starter again next year.

Bring him back as a 5th starter next year and the Sox are looking up at KC again. Bring Floyd back and TB is above the Sox too.

itsnotrequired
09-12-2007, 12:44 AM
I did not watch the game but looking at the stats, I don't think that the problem is that Danks is gased. I think the problem is that Danks is bad. Otherwise known as Danks Stanks!:angry:

Danks has thrown 139 innings this season, double the amount of innings he threw at the AAA level. It is the same number he threw all of last year. He should come close to what he threw in 2005 (156).

I vote for gassed.

Bring him back as a 5th starter next year and the Sox are looking up at KC again. Bring Floyd back and TB is above the Sox too.

Fascinating insight...

Parrothead
09-12-2007, 12:49 AM
Fascinating insight...

Thanks !:bandance::D:

itsnotrequired
09-12-2007, 12:51 AM
Thanks !:bandance::D:

I recall a young pitcher going 6-14 with a 5.61 ERA in his first year as a regular starter at age 21. And this was in the NL!

Some jerk named Greg Maddux...

DumpJerry
09-12-2007, 12:52 AM
Wow people are getting gnarly tonight.

Danks will be fine. I'm very excited having him on our side. His future is very bright. When he was growing up going through Little League, High School, etc. in Texas, his family friend was his mentor for his baseball playing. That mentor was some guy named Nolan Ryan. Yes. That Nolan Ryan. Stop for a second and think about it.

His mentor today is Mark Buerhle (remember how cleanly he picked off the runner tonight?).

Nolan Ryan. Mark Buerhle. These guys are shaping John Danks.

Get excited.

Parrothead
09-12-2007, 01:03 AM
I am convinced ! I have seen the light !

Yeah, you guys are correct he is probably gassed those 5.2 innings and 108 pitches he threw on Aug 30 really tired him out. I know I would really tired pitching on 12 days rest. That is right....make room in the HOF for him and give him 10 + million...he deserves it. He held Cleveland under 3 runs (only in 3 innings) but his ERA is still lower than Contreras, Floyd, Masset, McDougal, Prinz, Sisco and Day.

areilly
09-12-2007, 01:05 AM
I recall a young pitcher going 6-14 with a 5.61 ERA in his first year as a regular starter at age 21. And this was in the NL!

Some jerk named Greg Maddux...

Ah...I thought you meant John Snyder (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/snydejo02.shtml).

Brian26
09-12-2007, 01:09 AM
And Broadway is? He got lit the **** up in AAA.

Broadway and Phillips have shown more mound presence since last Friday than the rest of the bullpen has shown all season, excluding Jenks, of course.

The future is indeed glorious, INR.

itsnotrequired
09-12-2007, 07:16 AM
I am convinced ! I have seen the light !

Yeah, you guys are correct he is probably gassed those 5.2 innings and 108 pitches he threw on Aug 30 really tired him out. I know I would really tired pitching on 12 days rest. That is right....make room in the HOF for him and give him 10 + million...he deserves it. He held Cleveland under 3 runs (only in 3 innings) but his ERA is still lower than Contreras, Floyd, Masset, McDougal, Prinz, Sisco and Day.

I'm talking about a season's worth of pitching gassing him out, not his last start.

itsnotrequired
09-12-2007, 07:25 AM
Ah...I thought you meant John Snyder (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/snydejo02.shtml).

The same John Snyder who had arm problems and elbow surgery?

Parrothead
09-12-2007, 07:49 AM
I'm talking about a season's worth of pitching gassing him out, not his last start.

His last starts including last night from August 1st:

2.2, 5.2, 3.1, 5, 4.1, 6, 4 innings.

Yeah, his arm must be beat due to all those innings. :rolleyes:

wassagstdu
09-12-2007, 07:57 AM
It's painful to see the stark contrast side-by-side of the Sox vs. the Indians rookies. Carmona, Carbrera, Garko.

Bottom line, the most serious problem. Not injuries, not slumps, not a failed bullpen strategy, but poor scouting and player development on the farm.

IlliniSox4Life
09-12-2007, 08:05 AM
His last starts including last night from August 1st:

2.2, 5.2, 3.1, 5, 4.1, 6, 4 innings.

Yeah, his arm must be beat due to all those innings. :rolleyes:


You are aware that it takes several years to build up the endurance where you can effectively throw 200 innings a season?

Most rookies coming up from the minors have never thrown near that.

DumpJerry
09-12-2007, 08:12 AM
You are aware that it takes several years to build up the endurance where you can effectively throw 200 innings a season?

Most rookies coming up from the minors have never thrown near that.
[quote Parrothead] Stop messing up my assertions with facts! Danks is a bum. He's young, he can pitch 500 innings a season. It's not that hard. I do it all the time in my video games! All he needs is a good night's sleep to recover from a mere 5 innings....[quote]

Parrothead
09-12-2007, 08:22 AM
[quote Parrothead] Stop messing up my assertions with facts! Danks is a bum. He's young, he can pitch 500 innings a season. It's not that hard. I do it all the time in my video games! All he needs is a good night's sleep to recover from a mere 5 innings....

Pitchers recover in 4 days. Anything more the 5 would be a bonus but he can't even do that. and to the other guy....Build up his strength? He has been in the minors doing just that. Man up and pitch better. Some people have it and some don't. Danks don't IMO.

On a related note why would anyone trust Kenny and his scouts to get quality kids. They have not in a long time why stop the trend.

mwc44
09-12-2007, 08:39 AM
Wow people are getting gnarly tonight... ... Get excited.

Look on the bright side folks, at least the lines for the restrooms won't be out the door the rest of the season!

I'm excited!!! :bandance:

The Immigrant
09-12-2007, 08:49 AM
Danks was great early, but got zero run support. Now he's pitching deeper into a season than he ever has before. He'll be fine next year.

If by "great early" you mean in the first of three innings he pitched, then okay. Otherwise he looked barely mediocre.

Brian26
09-12-2007, 08:55 AM
Gonzalez and Lucy were like two automatic outs last night, a combined 0-for-6. The other thing that killed the Sox were the 10 walks issued to Indians batters.

ilsox7
09-12-2007, 08:57 AM
[quote Parrothead] Stop messing up my assertions with facts! Danks is a bum. He's young, he can pitch 500 innings a season. It's not that hard. I do it all the time in my video games! All he needs is a good night's sleep to recover from a mere 5 innings....

I am surprised Parrothead isn't claiming that Danks is worse than the guys starting for the Windy City Bolts.

Has it really come to the point at WSI where people have no clue of the rigors a rookie pitcher undergoes trying to adjust to the physical and mental stress of a full season in MLB? Danks was quite good for an extended period of time this year. It's obvious he has hit a wall and is running on fumes. It's not that difficult of a concept for those of us who have followed baseball for a while.

The Immigrant
09-12-2007, 08:58 AM
Bottom line, the most serious problem. Not injuries, not slumps, not a failed bullpen strategy, but poor scouting and player development on the farm.

Latin American scouting is a big part of it. Martinez, Peralta, Carmona, Cabrera, Gutierrez and Betancourt were all signed by the Indians as Latin American free agents. On the other hand, there is not a single Latin American free agent on the current Sox roster that was originally signed by the Sox. We need serious improvement in that department.

EDIT: oeo rightly points out that the Indians got Cabrera from the Mariners for a friggin' TV analyst.

oeo
09-12-2007, 08:59 AM
It's painful to see the stark contrast side-by-side of the Sox vs. the Indians rookies. Carmona, Carbrera, Garko.

Cabrera is a product of the Mariners system...they got him last year when they traded Eduardo Perez of all people.

itsnotrequired
09-12-2007, 09:38 AM
Pitchers recover in 4 days. Anything more the 5 would be a bonus but he can't even do that. and to the other guy....Build up his strength? He has been in the minors doing just that. Man up and pitch better. Some people have it and some don't. Danks don't IMO.

Danks has thrown 426 innings in the minors before coming up and is on pace to throw about 155 innings in his first MLB season. How do other pitchers on the staff compare?

Garland threw 930 innings in the minors before coming up. He threw almost 70 innings his first MLB seaosn, started the next in the minors and came back up to throw 117.
Vazquez threw about 500 innings in the minors before coming up. He threw 172 innings in his first MLB season.
Buehrle is the only oddball. He threw 217 innings in the minors, came up for 51 late and then threw 221 his first full season. Truly a horse.But what about other pitchers around the league?

Maddux threw 463 innings in the minors, came up for a brief 31 inning stint and started the next season in the minors. He came up later that year to threw 155.
Clemens threw around 130 in the minors before coming up to throw 133 innings in his first year. He threw 98 the next season and was then off to the races.
Randy Johnson threw 400 innings in the minors before coming up to throw 26, returned to the minors next season and then came back up to throw 131 innings.
Pedro Martinez threw 300 innings in the minors, came up for a brief 8 inning stint, started next season in the minors and came back up to throw 107 innings. Next season he threw 144.This data clearly shows that all pitchers except Buehrle should have manned-up when they got called to the bigs.

Jerko
09-12-2007, 09:56 AM
Typical Sox/Indians game. Stay close for a while, use 2 or 3 pitchers, walk walk HBP walk walk, a few hits here and there from Garko, bring Thornton in to give up a hit to Sizemore (who is 4-5 vs. Thornton this year but I guess the fact that he's lefty supercedes the .800 BA), walk in a few runs, bring MacDougal in, walk in another run, hit, passed ball, walk whatever, guys on 1st and 2nd, bring another lefty in to give up a hit to Hafner (batting .583 vs. Sox lefty relievers this year), etc..... Never saw that before. Same old same old.

I know the Sizemore hit was a broken bat but he owns Thornton. Hopefully somebody will realize this before 2012.

Hitmen77
09-12-2007, 10:32 AM
Cabrera is a product of the Mariners system...they got him last year when they traded Eduardo Perez of all people.

That would be good enough for me. Rookie talent doesn't all have to be drafted and come up through a single organization.

oeo
09-12-2007, 10:39 AM
That would be good enough for me. Rookie talent doesn't all have to be drafted and come up through a single organization.

Understood, but Carmona and Garko are both products of a complete rebuilding process, and Cabrera wasn't even drafted by them. It's not like they're doing some hell of a job...the reason they have so much young talent is because they chose to move in a different direction after 2001, and sucked for the better part of 5 years.

DumpJerry
09-12-2007, 10:48 AM
People seem to have forgotten that for a while earlier this year there was some talk of ROY for Danks.

Regarding innings pitched, I've heard (having never been a pitcher at any level of baseball) that pitching one inning in the majors is much, much more stressful than a whole 9 innings in the minors. Another fact that people don't seem to realize is that if your team is chasing a title, each inning you pitch feels like two innings. Now I know this last example does not directly apply to the White Sox this year, but it shows that taking 5 or 6 days off is not enough time to fully "recover" from an outing, no matter how short.

Also, I don't want to hear "he pitched only 3 innings, how can he be tired?" because if a starter pitched three innings, then it is likely he threw a ton pitches to get out of constant jams unless he gave up 5 home runs in a row on first pitches (a daily occurence).

veeter
09-12-2007, 10:48 AM
Thanks !:bandance::D:Get a clue.

southside rocks
09-12-2007, 10:49 AM
Has it really come to the point at WSI where people have no clue of the rigors a rookie pitcher undergoes trying to adjust to the physical and mental stress of a full season in MLB? Danks was quite good for an extended period of time this year. It's obvious he has hit a wall and is running on fumes. It's not that difficult of a concept for those of us who have followed baseball for a while.

I'm impressed with what Danks has shown this year, notably in his attitude and in his willingness -- as much as it has been talked about by Ozzie, Coop, Farmio, etc. -- to work and learn. He's off to a very good start in his career, and when he's 26 or 27 he'll be a stud, assuming that he stays healthy. The development of a pitcher can be an interesting thing to watch.

chisoxmike
09-12-2007, 10:57 AM
His last starts including last night from August 1st:

2.2, 5.2, 3.1, 5, 4.1, 6, 4 innings.

Yeah, his arm must be beat due to all those innings. :rolleyes:

I don't think you get it.

itsnotrequired
09-12-2007, 11:09 AM
Also, I don't want to hear "he pitched only 3 innings, how can he be tired?" because if a starter pitched three innings, then it is likely he threw a ton pitches to get out of constant jams unless he gave up 5 home runs in a row on first pitches (a daily occurence).

Pitches thrown for his starts including August 1:

96
99
87
77
57
108
76

That's 600 pitches across 31 innings or nearly 20 pitches an inning. Laboring.

kitekrazy
09-12-2007, 11:42 AM
Wow people are getting gnarly tonight.

Danks will be fine. I'm very excited having him on our side. His future is very bright. When he was growing up going through Little League, High School, etc. in Texas, his family friend was his mentor for his baseball playing. That mentor was some guy named Nolan Ryan. Yes. That Nolan Ryan. Stop for a second and think about it.

His mentor today is Mark Buerhle (remember how cleanly he picked off the runner tonight?).

Nolan Ryan. Mark Buerhle. These guys are shaping John Danks.

Get excited.

Maybe some of the fans are members of the anonymous Brandon McCarthy Fan Club.

Danks is on a very bad team. If he was on the 2005 team we would probably see a better pitcher (remember McCarthy). I guess everyone forgot the problems this team went thru looking for that 5th starter before 2005.

goon
09-12-2007, 11:53 AM
Danks has thrown 426 innings in the minors before coming up and is on pace to throw about 155 innings in his first MLB season. How do other pitchers on the staff compare?
Garland threw 930 innings in the minors before coming up. He threw almost 70 innings his first MLB seaosn, started the next in the minors and came back up to throw 117.
Vazquez threw about 500 innings in the minors before coming up. He threw 172 innings in his first MLB season.
Buehrle is the only oddball. He threw 217 innings in the minors, came up for 51 late and then threw 221 his first full season. Truly a horse.But what about other pitchers around the league?
Maddux threw 463 innings in the minors, came up for a brief 31 inning stint and started the next season in the minors. He came up later that year to threw 155.
Clemens threw around 130 in the minors before coming up to throw 133 innings in his first year. He threw 98 the next season and was then off to the races.
Randy Johnson threw 400 innings in the minors before coming up to throw 26, returned to the minors next season and then came back up to throw 131 innings.
Pedro Martinez threw 300 innings in the minors, came up for a brief 8 inning stint, started next season in the minors and came back up to throw 107 innings. Next season he threw 144.This data clearly shows that all pitchers except Buehrle should have manned-up when they got called to the bigs.


Still waiting for Parrothead to write a comeback for this entry....

As for the person who compared John Danks to John Snyder, Snyder didn't strike out a 100+ batters in his first season, in fact, he never did. If you don't think John Danks has the skills to pitch in this league, you need to man up and have your head examined. The kid is 22, it's his first ML season, he's on a **** team, give him a break.

Parrothead
09-12-2007, 01:06 PM
Still waiting for Parrothead to write a comeback for this entry....

As for the person who compared John Danks to John Snyder, Snyder didn't strike out a 100+ batters in his first season, in fact, he never did. If you don't think John Danks has the skills to pitch in this league, you need to man up and have your head examined. The kid is 22, it's his first ML season, he's on a **** team, give him a break.

Parrothead has limited access to the net at work. Here it goes. If everyone is happy with a crappy pitcher. So be it. We are not going to change each others mind. From what I seen, we he gets a lead more often than not he gives it up in the bottom half of the inning. To the other guys with the stats. Those are nice but they don't mean anything. Danks is losing by giving up lots of runs on lots of pitches. The great Don Cooper is not fixing anybody (Aardasma, Sisco, Danks, Floyd...the list goes on). I am sure everyone by happy with these guys and the last place the Sox are in and will be in for years until real pitchers get here. I am not.

ilsox7
09-12-2007, 01:11 PM
Parrothead has limited access to the net at work. Here it goes. If everyone is happy with a crappy pitcher. So be it. We are not going to change each others mind. From what I seen, we he gets a lead more often than not he gives it up in the bottom half of the inning. To the other guys with the stats. Those are nice but they don't mean anything. Danks is losing by giving up lots of runs on lots of pitches. The great Don Cooper is not fixing anybody (Aardasma, Sisco, Danks, Floyd...the list goes on). I am sure everyone by happy with these guys and the last place the Sox are in and will be in for years until real pitchers get here. I am not.

You don't seem to grasp the concept of young pitchers having to learn and develop at the major league level. Very few pitchers dominate right off the bat. Many struggle and then improve.

Were you just walking down Chicago Avenue at Wabash? I saw someone in a WC Bolts shirt. Never seen one of those before.

spiffie
09-12-2007, 01:28 PM
You don't seem to grasp the concept of young pitchers having to learn and develop at the major league level. Very few pitchers dominate right off the bat. Many struggle and then improve.

Were you just walking down Chicago Avenue at Wabash? I saw someone in a WC Bolts shirt. Never seen one of those before.
The problem is people get frustrated because the Sox not only never produce dominating rookies, we can't even seem to produce middle of the pack rookies. This year 8 rookies have made 20 or more starts, and Danks is in last place with a 5.50 ERA out of that group. Among rookies with 100 or more innings he is in 11th out of 13.

Of course, in his defense, the ages of the rookies in question:
Matsuzaka - 27, 4.44
Guthrie - 28, 3.65
Bannister - 26, 3.46
Chico - 24, 4.61
Lincecum - 23, 3.99
Danks - 22, 5.50
Owings - 24, 4.78
Germano - 25, 4.38

Out of the guys with 20+ starts, Danks is the youngest, and only one guy is within 2 years of him, and considering Lincecum is considered one of the best pitching prospects in the last few years, there's no shame in not matching his performance.

WhiteSox5187
09-12-2007, 01:29 PM
You don't seem to grasp the concept of young pitchers having to learn and develop at the major league level. Very few pitchers dominate right off the bat. Many struggle and then improve.

Were you just walking down Chicago Avenue at Wabash? I saw someone in a WC Bolts shirt. Never seen one of those before.
And for the most part the guys that DO come up and dominate right away are quick burn outs ie Kerry Wood (though for whatever reason I think he could become a serviceable bullpen guy for someone down the road), Mark Prior (he's done) and Todd Van Popple.

Danks has been the least of our problems next year. His struggles of late I think have more to do with being physically tired than mentally tired. I think he's probably both which isn't good, but if you're physically tired and mentally sharp I think you can get by, but when you're both, you're shot. Danks has a good career in front of him.

ilsox7
09-12-2007, 01:33 PM
The problem is people get frustrated because the Sox not only never produce dominating rookies, we can't even seem to produce middle of the pack rookies. This year 8 rookies have made 20 or more starts, and Danks is in last place with a 5.50 ERA out of that group. Among rookies with 100 or more innings he is in 11th out of 13.

Of course, in his defense, the ages of the rookies in question:
Matsuzaka - 27, 4.44
Guthrie - 28, 3.65
Bannister - 26, 3.46
Chico - 24, 4.61
Lincecum - 23, 3.99
Danks - 22, 5.50
Owings - 24, 4.78
Germano - 25, 4.38

Out of the guys with 20+ starts, Danks is the youngest, and only one guy is within 2 years of him, and considering Lincecum is considered one of the best pitching prospects in the last few years, there's no shame in not matching his performance.

Agreed. It can be frustrating, but it also should not drive people to the point of saying Danks is not a real pitcher. The kid is 22 and showed some flashes of being an above average starter.

Tragg
09-12-2007, 01:38 PM
Broadway and Phillips have shown more mound presence since last Friday than the rest of the bullpen has shown all season, excluding Jenks, of course.

The future is indeed glorious, INR.
Why not put them (our young pitchers) in the pen (if your evaluation si accurate - and I have no reason to disbelieve it) instead of the usual suspects next year?

oeo
09-12-2007, 02:03 PM
Why not put them (our young pitchers) in the pen (if your evaluation si accurate - and I have no reason to disbelieve it) instead of the usual suspects next year?

Who? You mean like the other converted starters, Masset and Sisco?

I'm not sold on either Broadway or Phillips. A few good innings as their major league debuts does not mean they're ready. So your plan for next year's bullpen, is the same one as this year's? Sounds good.

If anything, hopefully one (or both) can make a few starts to end the year on a good note and become good trade bait. I'm much more looking forward to Gio and Egbert in a couple of years, than Broadway and Phillips next year.

DumpJerry
09-12-2007, 06:06 PM
You don't seem to grasp the concept of young pitchers having to learn and develop at the major league level. Very few pitchers dominate right off the bat. Many struggle and then improve.
I have two words for rookies who come out strong:
Mark Fidrych.

areilly
09-12-2007, 08:21 PM
As for the person who compared John Danks to John Snyder, Snyder didn't strike out a 100+ batters in his first season, in fact, he never did. If you don't think John Danks has the skills to pitch in this league, you need to man up and have your head examined. The kid is 22, it's his first ML season, he's on a **** team, give him a break.

That was me, and here I am manning up. Get the phrenological calipers ready.

My point wasn't that Danks is bad - my point was (in response to INR using Greg Maddux as a frame of reference) that one season doesn't tell the whole story. Just because so-and-so went on to have a great career doesn't mean Danks will, too.

Likewise, just because Danks had a rough second half doesn't mean he's through, either. Anyone here who claims to have the definitive answer on exactly what kind of body of work Danks (or anyone) will assemble is wasting their time with such frivolous discussion as this, as there are lottery numbers waiting to be guessed correctly and ridiculous sports wagers to win.

itsnotrequired
09-12-2007, 08:44 PM
That was me, and here I am manning up. Get the phrenological calipers ready.

My point wasn't that Danks is bad - my point was (in response to INR using Greg Maddux as a frame of reference) that one season doesn't tell the whole story. Just because so-and-so went on to have a great career doesn't mean Danks will, too.

Likewise, just because Danks had a rough second half doesn't mean he's through, either. Anyone here who claims to have the definitive answer on exactly what kind of body of work Danks (or anyone) will assemble is wasting their time with such frivolous discussion as this, as there are lottery numbers waiting to be guessed correctly and ridiculous sports wagers to win.

I just picked Maddux as one example. If parrothead was running the show, he would have ejected Maddux after his first season.

Parrothead
09-13-2007, 12:24 AM
I just picked Maddux as one example. If parrothead was running the show, he would have ejected Maddux after his first season.

I might have. But I would have looked at his performance and attitude, too. Right now I see nothing that says Danks is going to be good. I could be wrong but it is my opinion. Got to say don't recall Maddux's 1st season since I don't follow the Cubs. I do know there are many rookies doing much better than the @#%# that the Sox throw out there.

itsnotrequired
09-13-2007, 07:32 AM
I might have. But I would have looked at his performance and attitude, too. Right now I see nothing that says Danks is going to be good. I could be wrong but it is my opinion. Got to say don't recall Maddux's 1st season since I don't follow the Cubs. I do know there are many rookies doing much better than the @#%# that the Sox throw out there.

Performance? Just looking at the raw numbers, both Maddux and Danks had crappy rookie seasons; crappy record, crappy ERA, crappy K:BB ratios, everything. It is all the other stuff that will determine if a pitcher will be back after such a season; age, attitude, work ethic, etc.

Is there a concern with Danks' attitude and work ethic? It sure doesn't seem that way to me. So why are you so down on him?

DumpJerry
09-13-2007, 08:14 AM
Danks' attitude? Where is that coming from? I'm not aware of any quotes from him which indicate he has a bad attitude. Of course, I have not read evey single word written about the Sox, so I might have missed it......