PDA

View Full Version : The smoking gun on steroids??????


Fenway
09-10-2007, 01:16 PM
WFAN reported this afernoon that the NY Daily News is working on a story that links several AGENTS to the pharmacy in Orlando and that the Albany, NY DA's office is questioning several agents ( no names as of yet )

If true this could blow the lid right off. :o:

spiffie
09-10-2007, 01:22 PM
:borass:

Oh please oh please oh please oh please let him be the first name on the list.

Dan Mega
09-10-2007, 01:27 PM
:borass:

Oh please oh please oh please oh please let him be the first name on the list.

:rolling:

Doubtful though, I'm not sure if Boras is that stupid.

Nellie_Fox
09-10-2007, 02:07 PM
:rolling:

Doubtful though, I'm not sure if Boras is that stupid.He's damn sure that evil.

IlliniSox4Life
09-10-2007, 02:58 PM
:borass:

Oh please oh please oh please oh please let him be the first name on the list.


I would love it, and I would love to see him banned from the MLB somehow, but I doubt it. He gets a lot of the top names, so why would they need/want to do steroids.

spiffie
09-10-2007, 03:18 PM
I would love it, and I would love to see him banned from the MLB somehow, but I doubt it. He gets a lot of the top names, so why would they need/want to do steroids.
I don't know. Ask Sammy Sosa or Mark McGwire or Barry Bonds or Rafael Palmeiro or Roger Clemens.

FedEx227
09-10-2007, 05:24 PM
I don't know. Ask Sammy Sosa or Mark McGwire or Barry Bonds or Rafael Palmeiro or Roger Clemens.

But, this grand jury trial isn't here to talk about the past. It's not like every trial in the history of humanity.

California Sox
09-10-2007, 05:28 PM
I don't know. Ask Sammy Sosa or Mark McGwire or Barry Bonds or Rafael Palmeiro or Roger Clemens.

Or Jose Canseco or Jason Giambi or Ken Caminiti. I wonder how many league MVP's from the last 20 years were on 'roids the year they won.

The Racehorse
09-10-2007, 05:30 PM
Or Jose Canseco or Jason Giambi or Ken Caminiti. I wonder how many league MVP's from the last 20 years were on 'roids the year they won.

Probably most of them... probably most of the Cy Young winners too.

Hokiesox
09-10-2007, 05:34 PM
Man, after reading this, I'm slowly coming to the realization that the game I've grown up loving (only 27 years young) is a sham? I find it a little hard to believe, but the circumstantial evidence keeps mounting. :(:

BTW, I hope Boras's name is on that list. Clean up the roid problem and the exorbitant salary problem all-in-one!

DumpJerry
09-10-2007, 05:58 PM
His name won't be on the list. His operation is so large, he does not need a pharmacy in Florida to supply the junk to him. He would probably have his own private channels for the stuff, if he is giving it over to his clients. By the way, that is a big "if."

Oblong
09-10-2007, 06:42 PM
I have long suspected that many, maybe even most, have taken some form of shady substance. There's just too much at stake for these guys. Especially the fringe players who can turn a simple 2 or 3 year deal into a lifetime of financial security. Not saying it's right, just that it's the way it is. Even if you have 200 players on the list... then what? You can't do anything about it. Baseball doesn't want to do anything about it. The league isn't going to suspend 200 players. You aren't going to take away awards. You can't undo any stats or records.

Even if this particular list is made public it still doesn't mean much to me because it only reflects those that got it from that company. I'm sure there dozens of other companies.

ilsox7
09-10-2007, 06:50 PM
I have long suspected that many, maybe even most, have taken some form of shady substance. There's just too much at stake for these guys. Especially the fringe players who can turn a simple 2 or 3 year deal into a lifetime of financial security. Not saying it's right, just that it's the way it is. Even if you have 200 players on the list... then what? You can't do anything about it. Baseball doesn't want to do anything about it. The league isn't going to suspend 200 players. You aren't going to take away awards. You can't undo any stats or records.

Even if this particular list is made public it still doesn't mean much to me because it only reflects those that got it from that company. I'm sure there dozens of other companies.

At some point, I hope, baseball will be forced to do something about it by powers above them. I'd love to see Unclue Bud forcibly removed from office over this bull****.

Oblong
09-10-2007, 07:00 PM
There's always the antitrust thing hanging over the heads but the owners have too much money to spend on Congress for that to happen.

I'm really anti-owner. I think they are making a ton of money, a lot more, than they say. I doubt any team loses money. They control Bud.

Plus there's the union rules. They can't go back and do anything to the players who did something before it was banned. The NLRB will not allow it. If they did, the players would sue and win.

And to be honest, at the end of the day, it's still a game and still only entertainment. Congress has better things to worry about.

StillMissOzzie
09-10-2007, 07:24 PM
:tool
"It is with deep regret that I must announce that Scott Boras has been de-certified as a representative for MLB, due to his association with PEDs"

SMO
:bandance:

FarWestChicago
09-10-2007, 07:28 PM
At some point, I hope, baseball will be forced to do something about it by powers above them. I'd love to see Unclue Bud forcibly removed from office over this bull****.

There's always the antitrust thing hanging over the heads but the owners have too much money to spend on Congress for that to happen.

I'm really anti-owner. I think they are making a ton of money, a lot more, than they say. I doubt any team loses money. They control Bud.

Plus there's the union rules. They can't go back and do anything to the players who did something before it was banned. The NLRB will not allow it. If they did, the players would sue and win.

And to be honest, at the end of the day, it's still a game and still only entertainment. Congress has better things to worry about.You can't just give up and let the cheating go on. It can be stopped. There was only one questionable result from a drug test at the Track and Field World Championships across hundreds of athletes. Track was one of the first battlegrounds of drug cheaters and now it's perhaps the cleanest sport (Of course, there could always be some new designer one going around). It takes time and honest effort to clean a sport up. Bud and the union will need somebody to force the "honest effort" part on them. Or, baseball can just keep going the WWE route. I think that would be tragic.

Hendu
09-10-2007, 07:37 PM
MLB needs to take blood samples, like they do in cycling. That way, when a new testing method becomes available, they can test old samples. Also, most steroids and HGH don't show up in urine samples.

The Racehorse
09-10-2007, 08:01 PM
MLB needs to take blood samples, like they do in cycling. That way, when a new testing method becomes available, they can test old samples. Also, most steroids and HGH don't show up in urine samples.

I'm all for blood testing, but don't look at cycling for procedural guidance because that sport is about the dirtiest in the galaxy, second only to professional wrestling. :D:

Hendu
09-10-2007, 08:10 PM
I'm all for blood testing, but don't look at cycling for procedural guidance because that sport is about the dirtiest in the galaxy, second only to professional wrestling. :D:

Agreed, but at least they're finding positive tests from the big names, and not just borderline players and relief pitchers.

The Racehorse
09-10-2007, 08:13 PM
Agreed, but at least they're finding positive tests from the big names, and not just borderline players and relief pitchers.

Hey, your right. Didn't the last Tour de France have many cyclists fail their drug tests? I can get with that. :cool:

Daver
09-10-2007, 08:33 PM
Bud and the union will need somebody to force the "honest effort" part on them. Or, baseball can just keep going the WWE route. I think that would be tragic.

It wouldn't be that hard to do, a well known lawyer could easily put together a class action suit suing MLB and all team owners on behalf of season ticket holders demanding a refund for MLB not providing the honest entertainment they paid for.

Oblong
09-10-2007, 10:32 PM
It wouldn't be that hard to do, a well known lawyer could easily put together a class action suit suing MLB and all team owners on behalf of season ticket holders demanding a refund for MLB not providing the honest entertainment they paid for.

The substances are banned now. They are doing testing and players that get caught are being dealt with. But there's nothing that can be done for stuff prior to that.

You can't just give up and let the cheating go on. It can be stopped. There was only one questionable result from a drug test at the Track and Field World Championships across hundreds of athletes. Track was one of the first battlegrounds of drug cheaters and now it's perhaps the cleanest sport (Of course, there could always be some new designer one going around). It takes time and honest effort to clean a sport up. Bud and the union will need somebody to force the "honest effort" part on them. Or, baseball can just keep going the WWE route. I think that would be tragic.

But what can be done? The stuff is banned now. This story is about stuff that happened before it was banned. So what happens if we find out a player like Albert Pujols (just a name thrown out there) took some stuff that's now banned but he took it when it wasn't banned? All that can happen is public scrutiny and the HOF voters can take that into account when his vote comes around.

We can say it's not a good thing to do and that we hate them but as long as the stadiums fill up and the TV contracts get sold then it doesn't hurt baseball. We already went through the public phase element. The only thing that can come out of this that would be worse than what we've already seen is a conspiracy to cover things up.

voodoochile
09-10-2007, 11:03 PM
:tool
"It is with deep regret that I must announce that Scott Boras has been de-certified as a representative for MLB, due to his association with PEDs"

SMO
:bandance:

Now if we can get your sorry ass banned, toolboy and the world would be a better place...

Nellie_Fox
09-10-2007, 11:13 PM
I'm all for blood testing, but don't look at cycling for procedural guidance because that sport is about the dirtiest in the galaxy, second only to professional wrestling. :D:

Agreed, but at least they're finding positive tests from the big names, and not just borderline players and relief pitchers.

Hey, your right. Didn't the last Tour de France have many cyclists fail their drug tests? I can get with that. :cool:No sport had a bigger problem, but no sport is doing more to clean it up. Of course, it helps that their biggest events are all in Europe, where the police can search cars and hotel rooms pretty much just because they feel like it.

StillMissOzzie
09-11-2007, 12:16 AM
:tool
"It is with deep regret that I must announce that Scott Boras has been de-certified as a representative for MLB, due to his association with PEDs"

SMO
:bandance:

Now if we can get your sorry ass banned, toolboy and the world would be a better place...

Huh?

SMO
:?:

Domeshot17
09-11-2007, 12:51 AM
I think a bomb is going to drop, and its that Bud was playing Vince McMahon. Baseball was in such a slide in the post strike era, I have just always wondered if Bud might have encouraged players to get bigger, stronger, hit more homers. Bonds keeps referring to the day he will get to confront all the allegations, and Selig has been Silent on it. He has been passive on this, and the most he has done is this little investigation (which has turned up nothing compared to what raids on the DRs and mailing lists have).

I know its all just one big conspiracy theory, but hey, thats all MLB has given us over how many years now. I mean, come on, Rafeal Palmerio is it really.

voodoochile
09-11-2007, 07:45 AM
Huh?

SMO
:?:

Not you, the toolboy AKA, bud... Sorry for the confusion...

misty60481
09-11-2007, 09:33 AM
If they prove a player took steroids a certain year cant the team demand there salary back, Im sure most contracts have clauses saying that the player will not take any illegal drugs. Can you imagine Sammy S. having to pay back $16 mil. I bet that would stop a lot of it.

Oblong
09-11-2007, 10:07 AM
I believe that would have to be specifically mentioned in the contract. Remember the issue with Giambi? When it was referred to, they said "steroid clause" and it gave the impression that it was unique to his deal.

FarWestChicago
09-11-2007, 05:37 PM
But what can be done? The stuff is banned now. This story is about stuff that happened before it was banned. So what happens if we find out a player like Albert Pujols (just a name thrown out there) took some stuff that's now banned but he took it when it wasn't banned? All that can happen is public scrutiny and the HOF voters can take that into account when his vote comes around. That's a nonsense argument. Was murder banned, kidnapping? It was illegal, period. What can you do? If you can prove something, strip records. Track had done that many times. What else can you do? Get serious about testing. Baseball doesn't test. They have a sham/joke system where they pretend to test. Only a complete moron can get busted. On a side note, I should mention not one world record fell at the Track and Field Championships. Another indicator it was clean. You can fix a sport if you, oh, I don't know, actually try. :smile:

Oblong
09-11-2007, 07:07 PM
That's a nonsense argument. Was murder banned, kidnapping? It was illegal, period. What can you do? If you can prove something, strip records. Track had done that many times. What else can you do? Get serious about testing. Baseball doesn't test. They have a sham/joke system where they pretend to test. Only a complete moron can get busted. On a side note, I should mention not one world record fell at the Track and Field Championships. Another indicator it was clean. You can fix a sport if you, oh, I don't know, actually try. :smile:

Unfortunately in a collective bargaining environment baseball can't just do whatever they want with regards to testing. The union needs to go along with it. For some reason they haven't. Why? I honestly don't know. I would think if the majority of players were clean then they'd want to make sure the world knew they were clean and had nothing to hide. It's not a hierarchy system. 25 guys, 25 votes. Sammy Sosa didn't get 3 votes. Makes me wonder what they are afraid of. Again, I'm not telling you the way I want it, I'm telling you the way it is, within the parameters of our labor law.

As for stripping records, what records do you strip? The stats are not individual like in track and field. There's give and take between the pitching and offense and interactivity between the hitters. You want to take away dirty slugger's home runs? Ok fine. Do you then adjust the opposing pitchers' ERA? Do you take away the runs away from the base runners when he hit the HR? What if the slugger had 2 HR and 6 RBI in a 8-5 win? Suddenly his team knocked down 6 runs. Do they still get the win?

So yes.... what do you do?

FarWestChicago
09-11-2007, 07:15 PM
Unfortunately in a collective bargaining environment baseball can't just do whatever they want with regards to testing. The union needs to go along with it. For some reason they haven't. Why? I honestly don't know. I would think if the majority of players were clean then they'd want to make sure the world knew they were clean and had nothing to hide. It's not a hierarchy system. 25 guys, 25 votes. Sammy Sosa didn't get 3 votes. Makes me wonder what they are afraid of. Again, I'm not telling you the way I want it, I'm telling you the way it is, within the parameters of our labor law.

As for stripping records, what records do you strip? The stats are not individual like in track and field. There's give and take between the pitching and offense and interactivity between the hitters. You want to take away dirty slugger's home runs? Ok fine. Do you then adjust the opposing pitchers' ERA? Do you take away the runs away from the base runners when he hit the HR? What if the slugger had 2 HR and 6 RBI in a 8-5 win? Suddenly his team knocked down 6 runs. Do they still get the win?

So yes.... what do you do?You didn't read all of my post and you are over thinking the rest. I said somebody has to force Bud and the union to behave, period. They have shown they won't do it on their own. Daver mentioned a class action law suit for fraud. That may be one way.

What records do you strip? If you can get goods on Barroids you take his single season home run record and delete his stats from any bustable year (there goes the career HR record, too). You can't undo the season and all the team records, but that is no reason to leave the record book alone. Just because you can't come up with a perfect solution it doesn't mean you should do nothing. That is analysis paralysis. Again, you are over thinking things. Get what you can. Make sure the period is annotated at the hall of fame. Do something. Doing nothing because it's complex and hard is being complicit. And fire Bud and anybody else you can get in the conspiracy. Do something.

Daver
09-11-2007, 07:16 PM
The substances are banned now. They are doing testing and players that get caught are being dealt with. But there's nothing that can be done for stuff prior to that.


That doesn't change a damn thing, because the suit can cover the period of 2001 to 2004, and the shear amount of pressure that can be brought to bear from a class action suit against MLB, the owners, hell name the MLBPA in it too, in the court of public opinion is tremendous. I guarantee ESPN leads off with developments on every Sportscenter broadcast, and there is no defense for it from MLB or the MLBPA.

Bud Selig beat the MLBPA in the court of public opinion, don't tell me it is not a powerful medium.

Oblong
09-11-2007, 08:36 PM
So how come nobody has filed a class action suit yet? Because overall the public doesn't really care about it. They like baseball the way it is. The stadiums are filled up and the TV contracts get renewed. There's money to be made and people are fine with it.

There won't be enough people for a class action suit to mean anything. People like their season tickets and want to keep them for when their team makes the playoffs and world series. As soon as you put your name on that the team would just revoke the tickets. The only way something like that would have any teeth is if there's a conspiracy instead of just ambivalence.

If anything were going to happen in terms of a public outcry we would have seen it by now. It's not baseball fans that would make this happen because I honestly don't think there's enough true baseball fans for this, it's the general public and the intensity is not there. They figure they all do it and they go to the games away. I'm talking about the people who go to a couple of games, max, a year. They don't give this issue any thought.

As for the stats.... if baseball decided to take away statistics for known users then we'd start to see different sets of numbers being used. It still wouldn't change anything. So Barry isn't the HR leader anymore... what does that mean? You'd have a case like 1961 where half the people say Ruth and half say Maris. Stats aren't an achievement for recognition they are a tool used for analysis and if you start making things unbalanced then the tool becomes useless. Those who use the tools professionally will then get the "unofficial" database and use that. Does baseball even have an official record book or do they use a third party? Could they make a company like Stats Inc change it?

One other thing I want to make clear: If a majority of the players are clean then they are just as guilty in my opinion because they are complicit in letting it get this far. For some reason they are hung up on drug testing and invasion of privacy talk and that's just silly. I understand the argument is that you shouldn't have to prove your innocence but lots of industries and occuptations require drug testing. It's perfectly reasonable to expect professional athletes in today's world to offer proof that things are on the level. I think the current punishments are sufficient but as others have stated, the testing is still incomplete.

Daver
09-11-2007, 08:56 PM
So how come nobody has filed a class action suit yet? Because overall the public doesn't really care about it. They like baseball the way it is. The stadiums are filled up and the TV contracts get renewed. There's money to be made and people are fine with it.

There won't be enough people for a class action suit to mean anything. People like their season tickets and want to keep them for when their team makes the playoffs and world series. As soon as you put your name on that the team would just revoke the tickets. The only way something like that would have any teeth is if there's a conspiracy instead of just ambivalence.


Teams can't revoke tickets over it, they have no just cause, and it could easily be turned into a conspiracy case by a good lawyer. Your right, the public outcry is not strong enough to support it, but get a lawyer willing to gamble and run with it, it will build steam quickly, fans are not happy with the status quo. Financing the lawsuit could be a problem though, you'd need a lawyer with money in the bank and an urge to make headlines.

FarWestChicago
09-11-2007, 09:01 PM
So how come nobody has filed a class action suit yet? Because overall the public doesn't really care about it. They like baseball the way it is.Sadly, you are probably right. Look at all the 'roid lovers an advocates on this site. If this crap keeps going, I'll probably lose interest in the "sport" some day.

spiffie
09-12-2007, 10:08 AM
Sadly, you are probably right. Look at all the 'roid lovers an advocates on this site. If this crap keeps going, I'll probably lose interest in the "sport" some day.
I think part of it is also the paradox that says "everyone is dirty except for the guys I like." Its like how in public opinion polls most people always have a low opinion of Congress as a whole but a high opinion of their individual Congressman. I assume lots of people in baseball are cheating, but I allow myself, either through blind optimism or hopeless self-delusion, to assume that my team is full of clean guys playing the game the right way. And until something happens that forces so many guys to be caught, not just implicated or found a list from 3 years back, or written about in a book, most fans will likely be the same way. We want to love baseball, it fills something in us, and most people will hold onto it that way unless we are absolutely forced to reconsider our position through overwhelming direct evidence. So when MLB makes a token effort to clean things up, that's going to be enough to placate most fans, because if we all seriously sat down and looked at the logic of it all, it is almost impossible to support MLB financially unless you are willing to take the stance of "I don't care if they use steroids or HGH or whatever." And of course most people aren't ever going to say that, even if I think many more people think that way than would ever admit it.

kevin57
09-12-2007, 10:15 AM
My sorrow over how bad things have gotten was cemented in a recent ESPN mag article that illustrated how clubhouse personnel, from batboys to trainers, are routinely sent as courriers for all sorts of chemical enhancements. :(:

Fenway
09-12-2007, 11:05 AM
More names to be revealed in drug probe (http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2007/09/12/source_mlb_expects_more_names_to_be_revealed_in_dr ug_probe)

Whether the MLB can establish a working relationship with investigators remains to be seen. What is almost certain is that more names of major leaguers are going to be disclosed in connection with the case.

from the Albany paper
http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=621331&category=ALBANY&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=9/12/2007

Representatives of a special commission examining illicit steroid use in Major League Baseball are scheduled to meet Thursday with Albany County prosecutors, who are investigating a nationwide drug distribution network with a clientele that included numerous professional athletes.

It will be the second meeting between Albany authorities and members of a commission headed by former U.S. Senate Majority Leader George J. Mitchell, D-Maine, whom MLB has appointed to investigate whether players violated the league's drug policies between 2002 and 2006. The two sides first met in March, but prosecutors said they did not turn over any names of players then.

WhiteSox5187
09-12-2007, 01:07 PM
More names to be revealed in drug probe (http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2007/09/12/source_mlb_expects_more_names_to_be_revealed_in_dr ug_probe)

Whether the MLB can establish a working relationship with investigators remains to be seen. What is almost certain is that more names of major leaguers are going to be disclosed in connection with the case.

from the Albany paper
http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=621331&category=ALBANY&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=9/12/2007

Representatives of a special commission examining illicit steroid use in Major League Baseball are scheduled to meet Thursday with Albany County prosecutors, who are investigating a nationwide drug distribution network with a clientele that included numerous professional athletes.

It will be the second meeting between Albany authorities and members of a commission headed by former U.S. Senate Majority Leader George J. Mitchell, D-Maine, whom MLB has appointed to investigate whether players violated the league's drug policies between 2002 and 2006. The two sides first met in March, but prosecutors said they did not turn over any names of players then.
This is getting worse and worse...I think it's only a matter of time before someone on the White Sox gets implicated (rightly or wrongly)...as for the class action lawsuit, I'm not a lawyer (my parents are though!) I don't think you'd have much of a leg to stand on legally. You MIGHT be able to file the lawsuit, but I'm willing to bet most courts would throw it out rather quickly.

russ99
09-12-2007, 01:54 PM
The biggest problem with this new revelation is that it's all about HGH. There was a point where HGH was banned, but some players (Ankiel's excuse) purchased it before it was illegal.

So after all the backlash, bad publicity and careers, records, etc. tainted over steroids, these idiots are trying to cheat a different way, with HGH - one that has no testing method currently invented yet...

We need another Kenesaw Landis, who's above the structure of Bud (ahem...) and his ownership cabal and a real commissioner's office to clean this up.

I'd be happy if MLB and all American sports went the way of European sport on this matter, and take the recommendations of Dick Pound and the Anti-Doping agency where the penalty for ANY association with performance enhancers is a year suspension with a second offence resulting in a lifetime ban. The NFL is getting close to this kind of standard, but IMO is still way too lenient, especially with the slap on the wrist for the recent HGH accusations by players like Rodney Harrison.

That's the only way they'll clean this mess up for future generations.

eastchicagosoxfan
09-12-2007, 02:23 PM
In these forums, and others across the baseball world, people have compared the steriod issue with the gambling issue. There's a call for strong action against the abusers. Landis learned however, that there were simply too many issues that preceeded his reign to deal with. He used an ironfist with the Black Sox. However, he avoided the Cobb/Speaker/Wood/Leonard issue of gambling on a game. He also didn't touch John McGraw, Ross Youngs, Frankie Frisch, and other members of the Giants. Landis allegedly remarked that he wished people would stop bringing up issues that happened before he became Commissioner. Concerning steriods, there are policies in place now to discourage their use. Are these policies strong enough? Depends who you ask. But I doubt that in MLB itself, players, owners, agents, etc, there's very little call to revisit something that happened nearly ten years ago. Bonds' records stand just like Brady Andersons, as do Hal Chase's, Tris Speaker's, Harry Hooper's, and, allegedly, the 1914 Philadelphia A's.

FarWestChicago
09-12-2007, 07:10 PM
The biggest problem with this new revelation is that it's all about HGH. There was a point where HGH was banned, but some players (Ankiel's excuse) purchased it before it was illegal.You are wrong. It was illegal at the time. It just wasn't banned yet in the WWE, I mean MLB. The fact Ankiel got some crook doctor, who will go to prison, to write him a bogus prescription doesn't make it legal. It's like a 16 year old entering a bar with a fake ID. It's still illegal.