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View Full Version : White Sox must play for pride now


Fenway
09-07-2007, 01:27 PM
We can debate for ions what on earth happened to the White Sox in 2007.

If this team has ANY PRIDE left they must hold off charging Tampa Bay to avoid the worst record in baseball.

Tampa may have an even worse bullpen than Chicago but the rest of that team is still trying. They beat the Yankees 2 of 3 in New York last weekend and on Wednesday just destroyed Baltimore.

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070906/capt.689169ff729c4cbbaaddf4064d822f1a.orioles_devi l_rays_baseball_spd110.jpg

If they can't hold of the Fighting Seaweed then we know this team not only was bad..they quit.

itsnotrequired
09-07-2007, 01:33 PM
I will debate you for all the ions in the known universe.

BainesHOF
09-07-2007, 01:38 PM
Pride?! LOL!

This team quit long ago.

D. TODD
09-07-2007, 01:40 PM
Pride?! LOL!

This team quit long ago.
Worst record or second worst record is the same thing to me. I just hope they get a stud that they can sign with the high draft pick.

spiffie
09-07-2007, 01:41 PM
I hope Tampa wins a lot of games, and we win very few, so on Draft Day 2008 we are at least in theory able to take any player we want. I know realistically it is that we can take any player who won't ask for too much money and who is not repped by Scott Boras and who won't ask for a MLB contract or anything like that, but hey, at least in theory we would get our pick of the litter.

Fenway
09-07-2007, 01:43 PM
I will debate you for all the ions in the known universe.
or eons even :smile:

I know people are debating if this team is worse than 1970 team that won only 56 and was the worst in baseball. But baseball is more watered down in 2007 so in some ways this team could be worse.

1970 at least you could understand because the White Sox were broke, had terrible teams...no fan interest because you could not even see the games on Channel 32.

I have watched baseball all my life and I have never seen any championship team that didn't have a firesale fall like this one did. (65 Yankees started to fall but would hit bottom in 66 )

salty99
09-07-2007, 01:46 PM
No one cares about this team anymore, or if they finish last or 2nd last, or if they are the worst Sox team ever or not.

Let's move on to 2008.

Fenway
09-07-2007, 01:50 PM
I hope Tampa wins a lot of games, and we win very few, so on Draft Day 2008 we are at least in theory able to take any player we want. I know realistically it is that we can take any player who won't ask for too much money and who is not repped by Scott Boras and who won't ask for a MLB contract or anything like that, but hey, at least in theory we would get our pick of the litter.

You can almost bet that Boras will have 70% of the Top 10 prospects locked up before the draft. His scouting system maybe the best in baseball.

JR HAS to deal with him.

skottyj242
09-07-2007, 01:58 PM
We can debate for ions what on earth happened to the White Sox in 2007.

If this team has ANY PRIDE left they must hold off charging Tampa Bay to avoid the worst record in baseball.

Tampa may have an even worse bullpen than Chicago but the rest of that team is still trying. They beat the Yankees 2 of 3 in New York last weekend and on Wednesday just destroyed Baltimore.

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070906/capt.689169ff729c4cbbaaddf4064d822f1a.orioles_devi l_rays_baseball_spd110.jpg

If they can't hold of the Fighting Seaweed then we know this team not only was bad..they quit.

Thanks for the info Captain Obvious.

BeviBall!
09-07-2007, 02:27 PM
Pride?! LOL!

This team quit long ago.

Pride was so 2005. Underachieving and not-ready-for-primetime are whats fashionable these days.

http://mlb.mlb.com/images/2007/06/10/vdmXxd9H.jpg

Don't hate me cause I'm Andy Gonzalez.

Lip Man 1
09-07-2007, 03:28 PM
I have no specific proof but my impression is that some players began mailing it in as far back as September of 2006. By the end of May it looked like they were doing it again.

I understand the 'pride' factor and if you were talking about high school or college kids maybe I could see it but these are highly paid pro athletes who get paid regardless of how the season ends. Most could care less.

Off the top of my head Konerko, Buehrle and Thome strike me as guys who do care and pride would be motivation enough but there aren't many more of them on the club.

Lip

Fenway
09-07-2007, 03:33 PM
I have no specific proof but my impression is that some players began mailing it in as far back as September of 2006. By the end of May it looked like they were doing it again.

I understand the 'pride' factor and if you were talking about high school or college kids maybe I could see it but these are highly paid pro athletes who get paid regardless of how the season ends. Most could care less.

Off the top of my head Konerko, Buehrle and Thome strike me as guys who do care and pride would be motivation enough but there aren't many more of them on the club.

Lip

I think we can also agree that the Fighting Seaweed of Tampa do have some pride left.

I dunno...if I was a player I would not want my name associated with being on the worst team in baseball.

I really wonder how much more Hawk can take before his head explodes.

chisoxmike
09-07-2007, 03:34 PM
Off the top of my head Konerko, Buehrle and Thome strike me as guys who do care and pride would be motivation enough but there aren't many more of them on the club.

Lip


Yeah, those three are still playing and they seem to still care.

Konerko does some things that impress me when the Sox have tanked. Yesterday, for example, I think he was down 1-2 with two runners on base. He smacked a ball down in the right field corner. I remember in '04 when the team was done in September he settled for a lot of sac flies to tie games and take leads late in games. Paulie is a professional and wants to win as many games as they can.

I know it doesn't matter, but I still want this team to win games. And I would like the players to want to win also, rather than just "playing out" the remaining games. Yeah, its a lot to ask...

eriqjaffe
09-07-2007, 03:37 PM
You can almost bet that Boras will have 70% of the Top 10 prospects locked up before the draft. His scouting system maybe the best in baseball.:reinsy:
"70%? Kenny, identify those other three right away!"

:KW
"I'm already on it."

jenn2080
09-07-2007, 03:43 PM
Pride? I think as a team we lost that about Apr 2nd with the 2nd pitch.

itsnotrequired
09-07-2007, 03:45 PM
Pride? I think as a team we lost that about Apr 2nd with the 2nd pitch.

Seems a little extreme...

Chips
09-07-2007, 03:46 PM
Pride? I think as a team we lost that about Apr 2nd with the 2nd pitch.

Ditto.

spiffie
09-07-2007, 03:47 PM
You can almost bet that Boras will have 70% of the Top 10 prospects locked up before the draft. His scouting system maybe the best in baseball.

JR HAS to deal with him.
I will eat a bug if the Sox draft a Scott Boras client.

Hitmen77
09-07-2007, 04:00 PM
I have watched baseball all my life and I have never seen any championship team that didn't have a firesale fall like this one did. (65 Yankees started to fall but would hit bottom in 66 )

The collapse really took less than a full season. On July 6, 2006, the Sox had a record of 56-29. By June of this year, they were in total freefall. Injuries have been a huge factor, but I also think they have given up. They always find a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Management and coaching staff has to be resposible too. What really makes me angry is that so many players on this team look awful and all we hear is that Ozzie, Walker and Cooper are doing a great job. Really? I'm not saying fire them all, but to say they're doing a great job really points to a lack of accountability on this team. I find it very telling that Iguchi has been hitting over .300 since being traded to the Phillies. Don't tell me it's solely because NL pitching is that much worse - I think that's just an excuse. There is something very wrong with the mindset of this team.

spiffie
09-07-2007, 04:14 PM
or eons even :smile:

I know people are debating if this team is worse than 1970 team that won only 56 and was the worst in baseball. But baseball is more watered down in 2007 so in some ways this team could be worse.

1970 at least you could understand because the White Sox were broke, had terrible teams...no fan interest because you could not even see the games on Channel 32.

I have watched baseball all my life and I have never seen any championship team that didn't have a firesale fall like this one did. (65 Yankees started to fall but would hit bottom in 66 )
They didn't have a firesale, but still, by now less than half of that team that was around in 2005 is gone or was injured for most of the year:
Konerko - here
Iguchi - gone
Uribe - here...kind of
Crede - injured
Dye - here but injured
Rowand - gone
Pods - injured on and off
Pierzynski - here
Everett/Thomas - gone/gone
Harris - gone
Ozuna - injured
Blum - gone
Widger - gone
Perez - gone
Buehrle - here
Garland - here
Contreras - here and old and possibly still injured
Garcia - gone
Hernandez - gone
McCarthy - gone
Jenks - here
Hermanson - gone
Politte - gone
Cotts - gone
Marte - gone
Vizcaino - gone
Takatsu - gone

That says nothing about whether the moves were good or bad or whatever. But this is not the team that won in 2005. It has only a slight resemblance to that team. Half the starters, the entire bench, half of the rotation, and all but one of the bullpen are gone. Sad part is at least with a firesale we might have gotten a bunch of prospects for the future. Instead we added one guy who wasn't with our organization when we won the World Series who might be a decent future prospect in John Danks.

russ99
09-07-2007, 04:25 PM
They didn't have a firesale, but still, by now less than half of that team that was around in 2005 is gone or was injured for most of the year:
Konerko - here
Iguchi - gone
Uribe - here...kind of
Crede - injured
Dye - here but injured
Rowand - gone
Pods - injured on and off
Pierzynski - here
Everett/Thomas - gone/gone
Harris - gone
Ozuna - injured
Blum - gone
Widger - gone
Perez - gone
Buehrle - here
Garland - here
Contreras - here and old and possibly still injured
Garcia - gone
Hernandez - gone
McCarthy - gone
Jenks - here
Hermanson - gone
Politte - gone
Cotts - gone
Marte - gone
Vizcaino - gone
Takatsu - gone

That says nothing about whether the moves were good or bad or whatever. But this is not the team that won in 2005. It has only a slight resemblance to that team. Half the starters, the entire bench, half of the rotation, and all but one of the bullpen are gone. Sad part is at least with a firesale we might have gotten a bunch of prospects for the future. Instead we added one guy who wasn't with our organization when we won the World Series who might be a decent future prospect in John Danks.

Geez, that's depressing...

And we could be down to just Konerko, Dye, AJ, Buerhle and Jenks by opening day 2008.

oeo
09-07-2007, 04:25 PM
We can debate for ions what on earth happened to the White Sox in 2007.

If this team has ANY PRIDE left they must hold off charging Tampa Bay to avoid the worst record in baseball.

Tampa may have an even worse bullpen than Chicago but the rest of that team is still trying. They beat the Yankees 2 of 3 in New York last weekend and on Wednesday just destroyed Baltimore.

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070906/capt.689169ff729c4cbbaaddf4064d822f1a.orioles_devi l_rays_baseball_spd110.jpg

If they can't hold of the Fighting Seaweed then we know this team not only was bad..they quit.

Screw pride. If we the #1 overall pick, I'm fine. Unlike Devil Rays fans, I'm not worried about next year being as bad. Get a stud, franchise player for this ****ty season, and that will make me happy. There's no difference between last and second to last...they're both in the cellar, so who cares?

PKalltheway
09-07-2007, 08:32 PM
I have watched baseball all my life and I have never seen any championship team that didn't have a firesale fall like this one did. (65 Yankees started to fall but would hit bottom in 66 )
Even though the Mariners didn't win a World Series, they had a pretty far fall from grace in 2004 (finished 63-99 after 93 wins in 2003 and 2002, and 116 wins in 2001, and 90+ wins in 2000). The same thing that happened to the 2004 M's and '65-'66 Yankees is happening to this year's Sox. THEY'RE OLD. At least Ichiro broke the single season hits record that year so M's fans had something to cheer about...

Grzegorz
09-07-2007, 08:35 PM
Screw pride. If we the #1 overall pick, I'm fine.

Having the first pick overall is not guarantee that the pick turns into a superstar. That pick could be a disappointment.

If one "screws" pride then that individual is guaranteed to be a disappointment to friends and family.

eriqjaffe
09-07-2007, 10:11 PM
Having the first pick overall is not guarantee that the pick turns into a superstar. That pick could be a disappointment.And, given the Sox poor recent draft history, I'd say chances are better than average of that happening. But maybe I'm just being a dark cloud.

Hitmen77
09-07-2007, 10:56 PM
They didn't have a firesale, but still, by now less than half of that team that was around in 2005 is gone or was injured for most of the year:
....

That says nothing about whether the moves were good or bad or whatever. But this is not the team that won in 2005. It has only a slight resemblance to that team. Half the starters, the entire bench, half of the rotation, and all but one of the bullpen are gone. Sad part is at least with a firesale we might have gotten a bunch of prospects for the future. Instead we added one guy who wasn't with our organization when we won the World Series who might be a decent future prospect in John Danks.

Good post. Another way to look at it is not just a change in the players since '05, but how much better/worse we are at each position since '05 through the first half of '06:

- AJ: no major drop in production
- Konerko: 50 point drop in batting avg from last year.
- 2B: Big drop off from Iguchi's '05 season. Iguchi was unimpressive this year (until he was traded away from the Sox and starting hitting .300 for Philly:angry:). Richar may have potential, but has hit only .200.
- Uribe: HUGE dropoff in offense AND defense since '05
- 3B: Huge dropoff. Crede out for season. Team greatly misses his defense and clutch hitting. Fields has potential, but going through rookie struggles. Lets many grounders go through that Crede would have stopped. Now we've hit rock bottom with Andy Gonzalez at 3rd.
- LF: Huge dropoff. The Pods of '05 is long gone. He's oft injured and no longer the spark plug for our offense. LF left to subs/AAA quality players for most of the year.
- CF: Huge dropoff from '05 season. BA struggled in '06 and Erstad has missed too much time due to injury. Jerry Owens has been decent.
- RF: Huge dropoff in '07. Dye went from World Series MVP to having an MVP-caliber season in '06 to suddenly looking past his prime this year. Even when he's not battling injuries, he seems to be a far cry from the powerhouse he was last year.
- DH: Thome was a huge improvement in '06 over Everett. But, injured too often this year. Missed 1 month on DL and then other times with nagging injuries. Still a good hitter, but not as good as last year.
- SP1: Buehrle: Having another great year this year. Awful '06 2nd half helped sink Sox playoff chances
- SP2: Garland: Not as good this year as in '05 and '06 - having a bad 2nd half.
- SP3: Contreras: HUGE dropoff since '05. Hasn't been the same since going on the DL in May '06. May not be tradeable at this point.
- SP4: Danks not as good as Garcia's '05 season. Garcia is gone. Big drop in performance in '06 despite and was a total flop for Philly this year. Danks has a lot of potential, but not yet nearly as good this year as the '05 Garcia.
- SP5: Vazquez having a good year this year. Better than El Duque in '05. But poor showing by Vazquez in '06 helped sink Sox playoff chances
- Bullpen. Huge drop off from '05. Only Jenks remains from '05. Hermanson, Politte, Cotts not in majors this year. KW's power arms (Sisco, Aardsma, Massett) all failures.

Fenway
09-07-2007, 11:05 PM
I saw pride Friday night in the bottom of the 9th watching in Boston in the 11th

FarWestChicago
09-07-2007, 11:36 PM
If this team has ANY PRIDE left they must hold off charging Tampa Bay to avoid the worst record in baseball.Who the **** cares? Quit spamming/trolling before we have to give you a long enough break to come back after Tom Brady has knocked up a completely different woman.

spiffie
09-07-2007, 11:43 PM
Who the **** cares? Quit spamming/trolling before we have to give you a long enough break to come back after Tom Brady has knocked up a completely different woman.
Is a 3 day banning really that big a threat?

FarWestChicago
09-08-2007, 12:14 AM
Is a 3 day banning really that big a threat?OK, I am humbled. That was a great post. :cool:

southsideirish71
09-08-2007, 12:35 AM
The sox are playing for Pedro Alvarez now.